WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:07.020 Christian: Welcome to Design Meets Business, a show where design leaders talk 00:00:07.020 --> 00:00:11.610 about practical ways to quantify design, about making our work more transparent, 00:00:11.970 --> 00:00:15.180 and about how designers can make a bigger impact in their organization. 00:00:15.810 --> 00:00:19.380 I'm your host, Christian Vasile, and before we begin, I'd like to 00:00:19.380 --> 00:00:20.550 thank you for tuning in today. 00:00:23.810 --> 00:00:26.790 On the podcast today, Global Head of Design at Spotify 00:00:26.790 --> 00:00:28.710 Ads, Leonardo de la Rocha. 00:00:29.340 --> 00:00:32.720 It's an insights packed conversation about the advantages of being a 00:00:32.720 --> 00:00:37.129 T-shaped generalist, about trust, transparency, and relationship building 00:00:37.129 --> 00:00:41.209 at work, and about something we don't discuss often enough – design ethics. 00:00:41.629 --> 00:00:43.160 You are going to love this one. 00:00:43.610 --> 00:00:43.910 Enjoy. 00:00:47.129 --> 00:00:51.015 Leonardo, Welcome to Design Meets Business I am so excited to have you on today. 00:00:51.015 --> 00:00:53.625 I'm very thankful we're able to have this conversation and I 00:00:53.625 --> 00:00:55.665 have a lot of topics to discuss. 00:00:55.964 --> 00:00:57.794 So let's just jump straight into it. 00:00:58.125 --> 00:01:03.394 You are running as you're calling it a startup inside Spotify, which is Spotify 00:01:03.394 --> 00:01:07.995 Advertising, but you've got a long history of running design organizations. 00:01:07.995 --> 00:01:08.115 Yeah. 00:01:08.115 --> 00:01:08.835 With Yahoo. 00:01:09.445 --> 00:01:10.135 In the past. 00:01:10.135 --> 00:01:13.225 So for anyone who doesn't know who you are, can you give us a brief 00:01:13.255 --> 00:01:16.735 tour of your career so everyone can get acquainted with you? 00:01:17.365 --> 00:01:17.965 Leonardo: Absolutely. 00:01:17.965 --> 00:01:18.835 And thank you for having me. 00:01:18.835 --> 00:01:20.065 I'm glad to be on the call with you. 00:01:20.695 --> 00:01:22.915 Um, my name is Leonardo, the literature. 00:01:23.005 --> 00:01:26.305 I'm a, an American born and raised in Denver, Colorado, but live in 00:01:26.305 --> 00:01:29.185 Silicon valley, which is where there's a lot of opportunity for 00:01:29.185 --> 00:01:32.065 disruption and you know, through design thinking and through design. 00:01:33.045 --> 00:01:34.905 Um, I actually got my start as a developer. 00:01:34.905 --> 00:01:38.715 I was a backend engineer, moved to front end engineering and then front 00:01:38.715 --> 00:01:43.265 end design eventually where I found my love, I co-founded a company back 00:01:43.355 --> 00:01:45.845 in 2004, which was acquired by Yahoo. 00:01:46.414 --> 00:01:47.585 And that was a publishing company. 00:01:47.585 --> 00:01:50.585 And I joined Yahoo to oversee Yahoo publishing. 00:01:51.135 --> 00:01:54.405 Did that well for a couple of years, moved into Yahoo advertising to help 00:01:54.435 --> 00:01:56.445 rebuild that portion of their business. 00:01:57.195 --> 00:02:01.785 Also successfully, and then eventually landed at Facebook where I joined, um, 00:02:01.845 --> 00:02:05.175 an amazing leadership team to oversee part of the business products there, 00:02:05.325 --> 00:02:06.795 specifically the advertising tools. 00:02:07.245 --> 00:02:10.935 And after about five years at Facebook, took a little bit of a break back 00:02:10.935 --> 00:02:14.325 into entrepreneurship, but then eventually went to Intuit where I 00:02:14.325 --> 00:02:19.995 oversaw their design system discipline and help them build a design system 00:02:19.995 --> 00:02:23.175 that joined the, all of their brands together in a really amazing way. 00:02:23.685 --> 00:02:25.734 And then, ended up at Spotify where I. 00:02:26.579 --> 00:02:27.509 Advertising design. 00:02:28.139 --> 00:02:32.579 And if you didn't pick up on it, I've been in enterprise design my entire career. 00:02:32.579 --> 00:02:37.469 So publishing, advertising, design systems, generally the less sexy side 00:02:37.469 --> 00:02:39.659 of design, but to me the most amazing. 00:02:40.229 --> 00:02:42.689 Christian: Yeah, well, I've, uh, I can relate to that. 00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:44.759 Most of my career is in enterprise software. 00:02:44.759 --> 00:02:49.229 So I find that to be so many opportunities there because everyone 00:02:49.229 --> 00:02:50.549 wants to work on the 60 stuff. 00:02:50.579 --> 00:02:52.349 Everyone wants to work on the consumer product. 00:02:52.809 --> 00:02:56.529 But there is so much space for disruption in the enterprise world because 00:02:56.829 --> 00:02:58.179 nobody really wants to work there. 00:02:58.179 --> 00:02:59.829 I find that to be fascinating as well. 00:03:00.190 --> 00:03:01.600 One of the, yeah, go ahead. 00:03:01.870 --> 00:03:02.200 Well, I was 00:03:02.200 --> 00:03:02.890 Leonardo: just going to build on that. 00:03:02.890 --> 00:03:03.760 You're absolutely right. 00:03:03.880 --> 00:03:07.510 And there's also the biggest opportunity for designer growth 00:03:07.690 --> 00:03:08.769 in enterprise space because. 00:03:09.550 --> 00:03:12.550 Tackle some of the gnarliest challenges, some of the most difficult things. 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:17.080 And in my opinion, and in my experience, if you've worked in business design or 00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:20.290 enterprise design, you're one of the strongest product designers on the planet. 00:03:20.350 --> 00:03:21.700 And you're the most valuable as 00:03:21.700 --> 00:03:21.940 Christian: well. 00:03:22.329 --> 00:03:23.170 Yeah, for sure. 00:03:23.170 --> 00:03:26.170 And I've seen that as well in the past, we look at portfolios when you 00:03:26.170 --> 00:03:27.820 try to hire or anything like that. 00:03:27.820 --> 00:03:31.310 And there is more of a, of a vibe of a generalist. 00:03:31.430 --> 00:03:33.500 When you work in enterprise software, it just seems like 00:03:33.500 --> 00:03:34.820 you're able to tackle much more. 00:03:35.290 --> 00:03:38.810 Complex issues then specifics like you sometimes do, in consumer, 00:03:38.810 --> 00:03:41.120 especially if you've been with the same company for a long time. 00:03:41.540 --> 00:03:44.210 Most of the time you just work on the same thing, time and time again. 00:03:44.210 --> 00:03:45.859 So, yeah. 00:03:46.310 --> 00:03:49.850 So one of the things that I've noticed about your career and you've 00:03:49.850 --> 00:03:52.820 touched upon it a little bit, is that you have transitioned from being 00:03:53.240 --> 00:03:56.510 an engineer, to being a designer, to being a creative executive, to 00:03:56.510 --> 00:03:57.890 an advisor, to different companies. 00:03:57.890 --> 00:03:58.070 So. 00:03:58.969 --> 00:04:01.459 To me, it sounds and correct me if I'm wrong. 00:04:01.489 --> 00:04:03.260 That you're more of a generalist. 00:04:03.260 --> 00:04:06.140 And especially as I'm sure you're a specialist in some areas, but the 00:04:06.140 --> 00:04:11.029 broad experience that you've got in, in the tech world sounds like comes from 00:04:11.029 --> 00:04:12.559 someone who's more of a generalist. 00:04:12.559 --> 00:04:15.769 So what's your take on that because I'm a big fan of generally. 00:04:15.769 --> 00:04:20.479 So I believe that you can become much more valuable as a 00:04:20.479 --> 00:04:21.949 generalist in today's design world. 00:04:21.949 --> 00:04:22.699 What's your take on that? 00:04:23.179 --> 00:04:25.099 Leonardo: Yeah, I, I, well I think you're absolutely right on 00:04:25.099 --> 00:04:26.809 both fronts for me personally. 00:04:27.649 --> 00:04:31.999 My career has lends itself to dabbling in almost everything. 00:04:32.689 --> 00:04:37.340 Part and every subdiscipline of design and it's empowered me and 00:04:37.340 --> 00:04:39.229 I can I can speak to executives. 00:04:39.229 --> 00:04:41.629 I could speak to engineers, I could speak to product managers. 00:04:41.840 --> 00:04:46.879 I can even speak to non, uh, business types and help them get excited 00:04:46.879 --> 00:04:47.840 and fall in love with design. 00:04:48.349 --> 00:04:52.710 And so my experience in moving around the way I have, and, um, switching contexts, 00:04:52.719 --> 00:04:57.059 where I have, has added tremendous value to me and to others who I mentor and. 00:04:58.064 --> 00:04:58.334 Yeah. 00:04:58.334 --> 00:05:03.074 I, I, I think of myself as any T-shaped designer, like broad across the 00:05:03.074 --> 00:05:07.604 spectrum and believe it or not, my expertise is actually in illustration. 00:05:08.024 --> 00:05:11.834 I don't read that for a living, but I love to do it as a side hustle. 00:05:11.834 --> 00:05:14.654 So any company I've been at has reaped the benefits. 00:05:15.374 --> 00:05:20.444 Getting free design, free sticker, design, swag, design, logo, design for their 00:05:20.444 --> 00:05:22.004 teams, because that's where my passion is. 00:05:22.004 --> 00:05:22.515 Christian: And yeah. 00:05:23.054 --> 00:05:26.504 And you were mentioning growth earlier growth as a designer. 00:05:26.534 --> 00:05:28.515 I think that when, uh, one of the better places where you 00:05:28.515 --> 00:05:29.924 can grow as a designer is. 00:05:30.534 --> 00:05:33.294 One of the places where he can wear many hats, most of the 00:05:33.294 --> 00:05:34.645 time, early stage startups. 00:05:34.645 --> 00:05:39.325 And I find that early stage startups usually tend to look for generalists 00:05:39.354 --> 00:05:42.984 because they can't afford to hire teams of illustrators in teams of 00:05:42.984 --> 00:05:45.504 researchers and teams of UI designers. 00:05:45.534 --> 00:05:47.515 They just hire a few people who can do everything. 00:05:47.965 --> 00:05:51.265 So I always say to people, if you want to grow and you want to grow 00:05:51.265 --> 00:05:53.064 fast, try to find a role where you're. 00:05:54.054 --> 00:05:57.984 To do, um, a lot of things, some things even that don't have anything 00:05:57.984 --> 00:06:01.464 to do with design in a way directly, a bit of marketing here and there, a 00:06:01.464 --> 00:06:04.144 bit of ads you know, stuff like that. 00:06:04.144 --> 00:06:07.114 And it comes in very handy later during your career. 00:06:07.414 --> 00:06:08.224 Leonardo: I think you're right. 00:06:08.404 --> 00:06:12.494 That's good advice and to build on that, I would say that if you go into a 00:06:12.494 --> 00:06:17.414 small business or startup environment, wearing those many hats often means 00:06:17.714 --> 00:06:19.214 moving quickly and being decisive. 00:06:19.454 --> 00:06:19.934 So on top of. 00:06:20.734 --> 00:06:24.004 Gaining great experience at places like startups. 00:06:24.364 --> 00:06:29.494 I think it's also good advice to tell designers going there to be emboldened, 00:06:29.884 --> 00:06:33.334 to just have a strong point of view, to be decisive because the faster you 00:06:33.334 --> 00:06:36.064 can move through your decisioning, the more you can accomplish and 00:06:36.064 --> 00:06:37.294 the more challenges you can take on 00:06:37.714 --> 00:06:38.074 Christian: yeah. 00:06:38.734 --> 00:06:40.234 Being able to move fast though. 00:06:40.294 --> 00:06:44.044 Isn't it also something that you're able to do much easier when you 00:06:44.044 --> 00:06:46.744 already have built that trust with the rest of your organization. 00:06:47.974 --> 00:06:49.025 W, what would you say to that? 00:06:49.294 --> 00:06:50.104 Leonardo: I think that's true. 00:06:50.135 --> 00:06:50.914 However, yes. 00:06:50.914 --> 00:06:56.254 And there's also some trust that you have that maybe you don't recognize just for 00:06:56.254 --> 00:07:00.064 being there, that like you got hired at this company because they believe in you. 00:07:00.664 --> 00:07:04.325 And I think that we often look past that initial trust established 00:07:04.325 --> 00:07:05.314 when you join a company. 00:07:05.944 --> 00:07:10.414 And my guidance to young designers is to embrace that like trust in yourself, trust 00:07:10.414 --> 00:07:14.734 in them, trust them the trust that they have in you and make those larger leaps. 00:07:15.499 --> 00:07:18.830 Don't go overboard to where you break the trust, but just remember the trust that 00:07:18.830 --> 00:07:20.659 you have that got you there and embrace it 00:07:21.590 --> 00:07:25.699 Christian: and beyond just getting hired and having the natural level 00:07:25.699 --> 00:07:29.359 of trust from that, how can you as a designer, joining an organization 00:07:29.419 --> 00:07:33.379 build even more of it and it could be a long-term play, but how can you go about 00:07:33.379 --> 00:07:33.890 Leonardo: doing that? 00:07:34.219 --> 00:07:34.489 Yeah. 00:07:34.489 --> 00:07:35.840 Gosh, that's a great question. 00:07:36.559 --> 00:07:41.150 And I would say that today, looking back on my own career, but also 00:07:41.150 --> 00:07:43.159 with the people that I've mentored. 00:07:44.374 --> 00:07:49.264 The thing that I think gets you more trust is to be, and I know this is 00:07:49.264 --> 00:07:54.664 cliche, but I'll say it anyways, like to be data backed to lead with your 00:07:54.664 --> 00:07:58.474 brain and take your heart with you versus the other way around frankly, 00:07:58.474 --> 00:08:01.534 data wins arguments, whether it's a small company or a large company. 00:08:02.164 --> 00:08:04.014 And if you can speak through the lens of. 00:08:04.849 --> 00:08:08.929 Uh, qual and Quan, you're going to start proving yourself as a, 00:08:09.409 --> 00:08:11.119 kind of a target driven designer. 00:08:11.509 --> 00:08:14.059 And I think that's what that's where the most trust gets unlocked. 00:08:15.049 --> 00:08:16.579 Christian: Well, I don't think it's a cliche at all. 00:08:16.849 --> 00:08:20.059 If anything, I think it doesn't get talked about enough and it is the 00:08:20.059 --> 00:08:22.879 whole, the whole reason of this podcast. 00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:27.229 So one of the reasons why I brought you on in the first place is because 00:08:27.229 --> 00:08:31.544 I know that you and your team now, but also in the past, Made constant 00:08:31.544 --> 00:08:34.995 efforts of putting design in a spot where it's seen as a business 00:08:34.995 --> 00:08:36.855 functional, capable of moving metrics. 00:08:37.304 --> 00:08:39.855 So I want to read a couple of paragraphs if that's okay with you 00:08:39.855 --> 00:08:42.975 from from one of the articles that you wrote about this exact topic. 00:08:42.975 --> 00:08:44.525 And then we can unpack that a little bit. 00:08:44.555 --> 00:08:46.035 I find this to be very interesting. 00:08:46.035 --> 00:08:47.225 So you're saying. 00:08:48.199 --> 00:08:50.989 One of the best pieces of advice I was given early in my career 00:08:51.050 --> 00:08:54.349 and advice that continue to give to early career career creatives. 00:08:54.619 --> 00:08:58.939 Isn't about the craft isn't to make everyday is not to curate with care. 00:08:58.939 --> 00:09:00.889 The work that you let pull your heart strings. 00:09:01.009 --> 00:09:04.219 It's not even to work in a handshake mindset versus a handoff one 00:09:04.430 --> 00:09:05.689 with your development partners. 00:09:06.079 --> 00:09:07.279 All of that is excellent advice. 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:08.180 I encourage designers to. 00:09:08.180 --> 00:09:09.410 He'd just not the best. 00:09:09.410 --> 00:09:12.889 In my opinion, the best advice is about unlocking your left 00:09:12.889 --> 00:09:16.879 brain analytical thinking to become a metrics guided creation. 00:09:17.795 --> 00:09:21.574 And then you continue a measurement mindset allows you to look beyond 00:09:21.574 --> 00:09:23.464 your immediate or near term solution. 00:09:23.525 --> 00:09:26.614 It forces you to challenge even your best design sensibilities 00:09:26.974 --> 00:09:30.214 and make you comfortable with the idea of putting your solutions up 00:09:30.214 --> 00:09:32.765 against quantitative evaluation. 00:09:33.124 --> 00:09:33.925 Let's talk about that. 00:09:33.935 --> 00:09:38.824 Cause I find that to be a really good summary of what 00:09:38.824 --> 00:09:39.994 I'm trying to do and with this 00:09:39.994 --> 00:09:40.655 Leonardo: podcast. 00:09:41.074 --> 00:09:41.494 Yeah. 00:09:41.824 --> 00:09:45.364 Well, I'll do math for a second and tell you that I, I got some tradition. 00:09:46.084 --> 00:09:48.935 Our training through a school called the art Institute. 00:09:48.964 --> 00:09:50.225 It was the artists in Colorado. 00:09:50.795 --> 00:09:53.555 And I found myself troubled because it was after I had already 00:09:53.555 --> 00:09:55.235 left my first stint of college. 00:09:55.235 --> 00:09:57.185 It was to go back to get a design management degree. 00:09:57.725 --> 00:10:00.694 And the professors who were mostly speaking to younger kids were also 00:10:00.694 --> 00:10:04.235 speaking to me, somebody who went back in my older age and were saying 00:10:04.235 --> 00:10:05.495 things that just didn't make sense. 00:10:05.495 --> 00:10:08.944 They were saying to fight for your design to fight for the 00:10:08.944 --> 00:10:09.905 decisions that you made it. 00:10:10.564 --> 00:10:13.665 Some marrying them there's that makes sense to believe in what 00:10:13.665 --> 00:10:17.324 you did and to be intentional with what you're designing, but what 00:10:17.324 --> 00:10:19.425 they weren't saying to these kids. 00:10:19.425 --> 00:10:24.915 And to me was that if you test your designs, quantitative data can actually 00:10:24.915 --> 00:10:29.474 help unlock and, and show you things that you didn't know because you built 00:10:29.474 --> 00:10:30.765 something with your hands and your heart. 00:10:31.305 --> 00:10:33.104 And I think that's the crux of the. 00:10:34.140 --> 00:10:40.949 Designers get too passionate about what they're doing and to intentional when it 00:10:40.949 --> 00:10:44.250 comes to for their designs and they don't have the ability to step back and look at 00:10:44.250 --> 00:10:46.449 it more objectively, that's really what. 00:10:47.399 --> 00:10:49.649 To be more like, and that's what I encourage designers to be more 00:10:49.649 --> 00:10:52.529 like, try to be objective, try to step out of your own shoes. 00:10:52.829 --> 00:10:56.249 Can you look at your design and your work from different lenses and 00:10:56.249 --> 00:11:00.749 not just PM and engineers, but from executive lenses, from the people 00:11:00.749 --> 00:11:02.310 that you're supporting as a manager. 00:11:03.089 --> 00:11:06.689 And if you get really good at getting out of your own shoes and looking at your 00:11:06.689 --> 00:11:13.079 work from these other lenses, coupled with data on how your design performed, you are 00:11:13.259 --> 00:11:14.859 one of the most powerful assets to any. 00:11:16.049 --> 00:11:17.879 Right because you're able to change and you're not locked 00:11:17.879 --> 00:11:18.059 Christian: in. 00:11:18.809 --> 00:11:23.129 This reminds me, in a past episode, we had director of design at BP, and 00:11:23.129 --> 00:11:27.459 he was saying that one of the, the aspect of their work is this thing. 00:11:28.314 --> 00:11:29.664 Stakeholder experience. 00:11:30.114 --> 00:11:31.404 So yeah, you have user experience. 00:11:31.724 --> 00:11:33.644 You have all of that at, you already know about, but you also 00:11:33.644 --> 00:11:34.724 have stakeholder experience. 00:11:34.724 --> 00:11:37.994 How do you talk about design to people in your organization? 00:11:37.994 --> 00:11:40.784 How you, how do you frame design? 00:11:40.814 --> 00:11:42.434 How do you bring them along on journeys? 00:11:42.464 --> 00:11:45.854 And I guess that's what you're also talking about is absolutely having that 00:11:45.854 --> 00:11:47.114 empathy for everyone else in the team. 00:11:48.374 --> 00:11:48.734 Yeah, 00:11:49.064 --> 00:11:50.234 Leonardo: and it goes beyond empathy. 00:11:50.234 --> 00:11:53.924 I think one of the, some of the best creatives, and by the way, I got to go 00:11:53.924 --> 00:11:55.454 back and listen to that podcast episode. 00:11:55.454 --> 00:11:56.204 It sounds amazing. 00:11:56.624 --> 00:12:00.634 Um and the person you interviewed from BP, I think has it right on the head, 00:12:01.564 --> 00:12:06.425 being able to get out of your own mindset and getting in others that's empathy. 00:12:06.425 --> 00:12:06.904 And that's great. 00:12:06.935 --> 00:12:11.045 We should build on that, but when you can articulate your story and you can tell. 00:12:13.354 --> 00:12:16.324 Back to yourself, back to design from the lens of a product manager, 00:12:16.324 --> 00:12:19.805 why this is so amazing and why it's going to make a difference and what 00:12:19.805 --> 00:12:23.464 metrics it's going to push and what levers it's going to attach itself to. 00:12:24.634 --> 00:12:25.594 That goes beyond empathy. 00:12:25.594 --> 00:12:28.074 And that's like commiseration and coastal. 00:12:29.150 --> 00:12:32.869 And when you become a co celebrator and it could in a commiserate or around 00:12:32.869 --> 00:12:37.160 the work that you do again, you're trusted, but you also learn and you 00:12:37.160 --> 00:12:38.540 make a bigger impact on your team. 00:12:39.170 --> 00:12:43.040 As I think there's a lot of value and not just looking at your work from 00:12:43.040 --> 00:12:46.910 different lenses, but being able to speak to your work in those different 00:12:46.910 --> 00:12:48.379 languages or those different times. 00:12:50.074 --> 00:12:52.805 Christian: I also remember I'm going to bring you back all the memories, 00:12:52.834 --> 00:12:57.124 but I used to work with a fantastic, uh, or in the team of a fantastic 00:12:57.124 --> 00:12:58.685 director of design a few years ago. 00:12:58.685 --> 00:13:02.165 And a lot of the work he was doing was the work of a translator. 00:13:02.404 --> 00:13:06.634 He was taking what we were doing on the ground and translating that in business 00:13:06.634 --> 00:13:10.265 language at executive level to get buy in for the next project and the next project. 00:13:10.564 --> 00:13:12.755 And I found that to be such a. 00:13:13.329 --> 00:13:16.449 Uh spectacular skill to have, because as a designer, you don't get trained in that. 00:13:16.780 --> 00:13:19.449 It's probably the only way to build it is through experience. 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:23.470 And I think you also need to have you also need. 00:13:24.275 --> 00:13:27.665 In order to learn that you need to have a focus on it relentlessly for years, 00:13:27.665 --> 00:13:33.245 to be able to learn how to frame design in a way that other people understand. 00:13:33.245 --> 00:13:36.185 And in order to be able to do that, you need to understand what they understand. 00:13:36.485 --> 00:13:38.074 So you kind of put yourself in their shoes. 00:13:38.074 --> 00:13:40.775 It's a, it's probably a monumental amount of work. 00:13:40.775 --> 00:13:45.425 So let's talk about that because running a design organization consists of. 00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:50.670 A lot of these work that nobody really sees you're not pushing pixels anymore. 00:13:50.850 --> 00:13:53.550 You're maybe not even sitting in design critiques anymore because you don't have 00:13:53.550 --> 00:13:59.100 the time you're doing a lot of sitting in meetings, really talking about designs, 00:13:59.370 --> 00:14:01.380 shed some light on that work for us. 00:14:02.189 --> 00:14:02.370 Leonardo: Yeah. 00:14:02.400 --> 00:14:03.120 Well I think you're right. 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:03.420 Mostly. 00:14:04.705 --> 00:14:07.405 I continue to strive to be a servitude leader. 00:14:07.405 --> 00:14:10.675 And to me, servitude means spending time with the people that you support and 00:14:10.675 --> 00:14:12.115 to understand their needs intimately. 00:14:12.145 --> 00:14:12.385 Yeah. 00:14:12.885 --> 00:14:16.755 So I will get to the stuff that you're wanting to hear, like what is the 00:14:16.755 --> 00:14:20.055 day-to-day like for a creative executive, but I also want to say that good creative 00:14:20.055 --> 00:14:24.825 executives, which I hope I'm remembered as spend the time with their team. 00:14:25.525 --> 00:14:28.435 To get to and understand them and, and build on those nuances. 00:14:29.155 --> 00:14:33.115 I think a lot of my week does go to one-on-ones with my direct 00:14:33.115 --> 00:14:37.555 reports, but also I have a lot of skip levels because I say to every 00:14:37.555 --> 00:14:38.605 team that I've led my calendar. 00:14:39.545 --> 00:14:42.605 I'm here for you and I'm only going to be successful if you're successful. 00:14:42.875 --> 00:14:45.935 So get on the calendar, like be proactive, find time with me. 00:14:46.565 --> 00:14:48.215 And I take that a step further. 00:14:48.215 --> 00:14:51.785 And I actually my old boss, uh, into it, Kurt, well, lucky he 00:14:51.785 --> 00:14:55.865 had a ritual there called kerf coffee with Kurt and no managers. 00:14:56.915 --> 00:15:01.925 It was all of the direct reports, the skip levels at every level, he's a VP SVP like 00:15:01.925 --> 00:15:03.245 head of design, essentially for Intuit. 00:15:03.515 --> 00:15:07.325 He was still meet with the ICS on each and every one of his business units teams. 00:15:07.865 --> 00:15:10.175 And it would be casual, there'd be coffee. 00:15:10.805 --> 00:15:13.205 And it would be a place to have spicy conversations. 00:15:13.205 --> 00:15:16.225 We say conversations that are difficult to have when your managers in the room, 00:15:16.585 --> 00:15:18.175 because you don't want shaped or not. 00:15:18.175 --> 00:15:22.975 You don't want to feel like there's going to be any retribution that I think. 00:15:24.355 --> 00:15:29.335 It's a big difference between a good creative leader with multiple teams and 00:15:29.365 --> 00:15:32.875 the ones that are just kind of doing the work, but the work's important too. 00:15:33.505 --> 00:15:36.265 And two, going back to your question, the day-to-day for 00:15:36.265 --> 00:15:38.305 me, it is a lot of strategy. 00:15:38.845 --> 00:15:40.975 It's a lot of alignment sessions. 00:15:41.005 --> 00:15:45.715 It's a lot of understanding what our leadership at Spotify sees as opportunity. 00:15:46.825 --> 00:15:51.025 Grokking those opportunities and then creating a strategy on how the team is 00:15:51.025 --> 00:15:52.675 going to go after those opportunities. 00:15:53.035 --> 00:15:54.605 So that's what strategy means. 00:15:54.625 --> 00:15:58.195 It's like, you're basically putting the plan on a page for what leaderships 00:15:58.195 --> 00:16:00.775 think we can accomplish and how your team is going to get there. 00:16:00.835 --> 00:16:04.315 Not prescriptively because you want a, a good culture is one where it's 00:16:04.315 --> 00:16:06.175 high autonomy with high alignment. 00:16:06.565 --> 00:16:08.065 So you want to say, here's the challenge. 00:16:08.305 --> 00:16:11.245 Here's how I think we're going to get there, but the teams are the ones that 00:16:11.245 --> 00:16:13.375 solve and create the tactics to go. 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:14.440 Yeah. 00:16:14.920 --> 00:16:18.550 Christian: And part of that strategy, is it also, here are the metrics 00:16:18.550 --> 00:16:21.430 that we need to hit with this, or does that come at a later point? 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:23.380 Leonardo: Great question. 00:16:23.380 --> 00:16:24.640 Because they should change. 00:16:24.760 --> 00:16:27.130 I think, poorly run organization. 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:30.400 Are like they have sticky KPIs. 00:16:30.760 --> 00:16:32.170 They have KPIs that don't change. 00:16:32.690 --> 00:16:35.600 And I used the word sticky intentionally because they're kind of gross when 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:37.340 you have KPIs that don't adapt. 00:16:38.180 --> 00:16:39.080 Nobody wants to touch them. 00:16:39.170 --> 00:16:40.460 Like we've already tested. 00:16:40.460 --> 00:16:41.420 We've already tried. 00:16:41.660 --> 00:16:43.340 Nothing's moving the needle on that metric. 00:16:43.370 --> 00:16:44.690 Why is that metric still there? 00:16:45.260 --> 00:16:49.580 Blow it up, rethink it and have KPIs that adjust and adapt based 00:16:49.580 --> 00:16:52.490 on what market needs are and based on what the team capabilities. 00:16:53.585 --> 00:16:57.875 Christian: And how do you encourage your teams on a daily basis to. 00:16:59.465 --> 00:17:03.515 Use designed for what it's meant to be used, which is moving those 00:17:03.515 --> 00:17:08.675 metrics rather than the alternative, which is here's, here's the next 00:17:08.675 --> 00:17:10.055 feature that we need to design. 00:17:10.325 --> 00:17:11.255 Go ahead and do it. 00:17:11.255 --> 00:17:13.935 And you know it might be a bit of a tough question for you to answer 00:17:13.935 --> 00:17:17.145 because I think it also heavily depends on the organization that you're 00:17:17.145 --> 00:17:20.954 working as part of and the culture of that organization, but not every 00:17:20.954 --> 00:17:24.135 business has the metrics driven design. 00:17:25.800 --> 00:17:28.290 Organization a cultural story. 00:17:28.290 --> 00:17:32.800 So how does that work for those people who are in different types 00:17:32.800 --> 00:17:34.900 of companies than Spotify or Intuit? 00:17:34.930 --> 00:17:35.410 Sure. 00:17:35.830 --> 00:17:36.370 Leonardo: Well, firstly. 00:17:37.150 --> 00:17:39.460 Um, I'm really proud of you for recognizing that it's 00:17:39.460 --> 00:17:40.810 different company to company. 00:17:41.230 --> 00:17:44.440 Cause that's a nuance that is often overlooked and you do need to understand 00:17:44.650 --> 00:17:45.790 what is the culture of a team? 00:17:45.790 --> 00:17:48.150 What's the culture of a company is a product driven. 00:17:48.150 --> 00:17:48.900 Is it design driven? 00:17:48.900 --> 00:17:49.740 Is it engine driven? 00:17:49.800 --> 00:17:54.420 All of those are factors that can impact the way that you frame something 00:17:54.420 --> 00:17:55.980 to be inspiring to your design team. 00:17:56.520 --> 00:17:58.230 But I'll challenge your point a little bit. 00:17:58.230 --> 00:18:01.200 And I'll say that I think it starts with the not framing, 00:18:02.040 --> 00:18:04.230 the work of designer to push. 00:18:05.415 --> 00:18:08.145 Obviously that's the case on the surface, but I don't think it's 00:18:08.145 --> 00:18:09.105 healthy to frame it that way. 00:18:09.645 --> 00:18:13.875 The way that I want to frame challenges are just that like, as customer challenges 00:18:14.175 --> 00:18:18.735 that are going to bring joy, delight, and solve things for the customer, if you 00:18:18.735 --> 00:18:22.395 do that well, and you're aligned with, and you create a culture of customer 00:18:22.395 --> 00:18:26.115 centricity or what we call that into, it was customer obsession and I'm pushing 00:18:26.115 --> 00:18:27.825 for that culture at Spotify as well. 00:18:28.365 --> 00:18:30.915 Then you can start framing opportunities as customers. 00:18:31.905 --> 00:18:33.165 And you're in it with them. 00:18:33.345 --> 00:18:34.785 Like you're alongside the customer. 00:18:34.785 --> 00:18:38.025 You understand why it sucks and that's what you're trying to fix. 00:18:38.745 --> 00:18:43.365 And then smartly you're aligning your KPIs or metrics to those customer wins. 00:18:43.785 --> 00:18:49.605 And so you never really have to frame or inspiring the team by framing it's 00:18:49.605 --> 00:18:52.035 metrics and its KPIs that we have to move. 00:18:52.425 --> 00:18:55.065 I'd always prefer to frame it as how are we going to help you? 00:18:56.010 --> 00:18:58.170 How are we going to help them have a better listener experience? 00:18:58.470 --> 00:19:00.300 How are we gonna help them have a better publishing experience? 00:19:00.300 --> 00:19:02.640 If you're a podcast here and how are we gonna help them have a 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:03.750 better advertising experience? 00:19:03.750 --> 00:19:06.990 If you're a brand, just trying to push your narrative through our products. 00:19:07.500 --> 00:19:09.210 That's where you frame the challenge. 00:19:09.210 --> 00:19:10.260 And that's what inspires design. 00:19:11.735 --> 00:19:11.945 It's 00:19:11.945 --> 00:19:12.845 Christian: a great point. 00:19:12.845 --> 00:19:17.685 It's a very different than what everyone else used to say on the podcast, which 00:19:17.685 --> 00:19:21.615 is well in a way or another, you've got to link business to this, or does 00:19:21.615 --> 00:19:24.435 that the design and what you're doing with the business to kind of get 00:19:24.435 --> 00:19:27.775 buy in for the next project or show the value of design or build trust. 00:19:27.775 --> 00:19:30.355 You, you mentioned earlier yourselves, you know, data builds trust. 00:19:30.835 --> 00:19:33.475 But this is just a different approach of how you can do that. 00:19:33.925 --> 00:19:36.895 I think this approach works really well in companies that are. 00:19:37.360 --> 00:19:39.290 Customer centric or driven by that. 00:19:40.130 --> 00:19:42.500 But I have had my fair share of experiences where 00:19:42.500 --> 00:19:43.520 that would not have worked. 00:19:44.030 --> 00:19:47.030 So you join a company where people have no clue what design is. 00:19:47.030 --> 00:19:50.210 You've just, they just know that product teams need to have one of these people. 00:19:50.210 --> 00:19:51.170 So they hire one. 00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:56.450 The challenge is there are very different than the challenges at Spotify or at 00:19:56.450 --> 00:20:01.100 Intuit or at Facebook, because these are just companies at the top of the. 00:20:02.665 --> 00:20:07.547 So if you had today join a company that has your you're the first head of 00:20:07.547 --> 00:20:11.137 design of this company, or how would you tackle that challenge of talking 00:20:11.137 --> 00:20:16.057 about design and making it more important than people historically know it 00:20:16.057 --> 00:20:16.357 Leonardo: is? 00:20:16.837 --> 00:20:17.077 Yeah. 00:20:17.107 --> 00:20:20.107 Well, part of the answer is in your question, Christian, I think the 00:20:20.107 --> 00:20:21.337 best thing to do out of the gates. 00:20:22.772 --> 00:20:26.732 Speaking to the value that design is going to bring by showing the work 00:20:27.352 --> 00:20:29.092 and I I've had this opportunity. 00:20:29.092 --> 00:20:32.142 I helped a friend who has a, an amazing startup of it's, in the, 00:20:32.142 --> 00:20:34.662 um, tax sector is called neo.tax. 00:20:34.662 --> 00:20:37.392 His name's Abraham, and we used to whiteboard in the coffee 00:20:37.392 --> 00:20:38.262 shop together, and I wasn't. 00:20:38.817 --> 00:20:42.537 Technically his first designer, but this was before he even founded the company. 00:20:43.137 --> 00:20:44.847 And he would ask me similar questions. 00:20:44.847 --> 00:20:46.407 Like we just need to ship a product. 00:20:46.467 --> 00:20:49.407 Like what's up with all this design thinking or what, why is it important? 00:20:50.277 --> 00:20:51.687 And it was through the work that I showed him. 00:20:51.867 --> 00:20:55.827 It was like when we put together his first pitch deck for investors, that deck 00:20:56.127 --> 00:20:58.737 went from having raw data, that was very. 00:20:59.632 --> 00:21:03.202 To having a story, a narrative, and it attracted different types 00:21:03.202 --> 00:21:05.992 of investors, like really, really impressive investing firms. 00:21:06.652 --> 00:21:09.502 And we would circle back and we would say, this is about design 00:21:09.502 --> 00:21:12.082 thinking because we're understanding the needs of those investors. 00:21:12.352 --> 00:21:14.962 We're putting ourselves in their shoes, we're creating a mental model. 00:21:15.292 --> 00:21:17.362 And now we're doing the work in that lens. 00:21:17.782 --> 00:21:19.912 That's customer obsession, that's design thinking. 00:21:20.482 --> 00:21:22.882 And then we do a time and time again from like the presentation to 00:21:22.882 --> 00:21:27.412 investors, to the first landing page, to the first email marketing and that 00:21:27.412 --> 00:21:28.462 to everything else that he needed. 00:21:29.227 --> 00:21:33.157 And when you approach it that way with every project, you no longer 00:21:33.157 --> 00:21:34.267 have to convince them down the line. 00:21:34.267 --> 00:21:38.137 You've already created that culture of design thinking by doing the work. 00:21:38.617 --> 00:21:38.797 Yeah. 00:21:39.367 --> 00:21:41.257 So that's how I would begin it. 00:21:41.257 --> 00:21:42.637 That's how I have started it. 00:21:42.727 --> 00:21:45.577 And it seems to be a pretty effective way, but it also means 00:21:45.577 --> 00:21:46.807 you're doing a lot of extra work. 00:21:47.677 --> 00:21:48.157 Christian: Right. 00:21:48.337 --> 00:21:50.137 But as part of the job, isn't it exactly. 00:21:51.337 --> 00:21:55.897 You said earlier that you like to spend time with the designers, will you use. 00:21:56.582 --> 00:21:58.162 Your calendar is their calendar in a way. 00:21:58.222 --> 00:21:58.522 Yeah. 00:21:59.122 --> 00:22:00.922 I'm wondering when you have these conversations with 00:22:00.922 --> 00:22:02.782 them, what is it in general? 00:22:02.782 --> 00:22:07.612 What patterns can you get from there in what most designers are struggling with? 00:22:08.932 --> 00:22:09.112 Leonardo: Yeah. 00:22:09.142 --> 00:22:09.742 Great question. 00:22:09.742 --> 00:22:10.942 I think it's a couple of things. 00:22:11.812 --> 00:22:16.852 One is given the state of the world and given all of the craziness that most of us 00:22:16.852 --> 00:22:18.232 are living through some more than others. 00:22:19.162 --> 00:22:22.642 We have to pay attention to the emotional health of our people. 00:22:23.152 --> 00:22:25.512 And so by starting out the conversation, the connection with 00:22:25.522 --> 00:22:30.142 the very human touch, just like literally seriously, how are you? 00:22:30.262 --> 00:22:30.562 How are you? 00:22:31.732 --> 00:22:32.542 How are you feeling? 00:22:32.572 --> 00:22:33.802 How are you showing up this week? 00:22:34.102 --> 00:22:35.272 What baggage are you bringing? 00:22:35.702 --> 00:22:36.922 What have you been working through? 00:22:36.922 --> 00:22:39.802 Like understanding how, where their emotional state is, and then 00:22:39.802 --> 00:22:43.282 creating a safe space through that understanding that's super important. 00:22:43.582 --> 00:22:47.752 And, and we should all be doing that more with our teams, but when it comes 00:22:47.752 --> 00:22:51.132 to design and some of the biggest issues and what I see as themes, 00:22:51.972 --> 00:22:55.752 especially with bigger companies, the high-performance companies where you're 00:22:55.752 --> 00:23:00.012 striving to be highly autonomous, highly aligned decisions get made pretty. 00:23:00.882 --> 00:23:04.422 And sometimes that means designers get left out or they 00:23:04.422 --> 00:23:05.682 feel like they're left out. 00:23:06.342 --> 00:23:09.192 And I hear it time and time again, like, Hey, we didn't, nobody called us in here. 00:23:09.222 --> 00:23:11.622 We don't feel like we have a seat at the table, or we don't feel like 00:23:11.622 --> 00:23:15.792 our inputs being acknowledged or the MVP got whittled down to nothing 00:23:15.822 --> 00:23:17.232 and we haven't even iterated on it. 00:23:17.232 --> 00:23:18.252 We haven't gone back to it. 00:23:19.032 --> 00:23:22.302 And I think that that's evidence of a product led company, which isn't a bad 00:23:22.302 --> 00:23:26.742 thing, but that's an issue like when designers feel like they're left behind. 00:23:27.537 --> 00:23:29.817 It means that designers don't have a good relationship with our PM 00:23:29.817 --> 00:23:31.497 partners or their enjoy partners. 00:23:32.157 --> 00:23:35.967 And so w where I guide and where I give advice and where I give tactical 00:23:36.037 --> 00:23:39.817 go dues is building rapport and building bridges to those counterparts. 00:23:39.817 --> 00:23:42.817 So the product counterpart or entropy counterpart, and that's where I 00:23:42.817 --> 00:23:43.957 spent a lot of my time advice. 00:23:44.407 --> 00:23:45.097 It's like, I understand. 00:23:45.097 --> 00:23:46.117 Well how did you try it before? 00:23:46.117 --> 00:23:46.537 Like, what does. 00:23:47.437 --> 00:23:49.987 What is the process that this pianos is looking at? 00:23:50.257 --> 00:23:50.587 Great. 00:23:50.647 --> 00:23:53.827 Well, maybe there's an opportunity to change the process itself, or maybe 00:23:53.827 --> 00:23:57.427 there's an opportunity to change your approach, but I, I try to get to, 00:23:57.517 --> 00:24:00.667 what's broken about the relationship between you and your counterparts, 00:24:00.667 --> 00:24:01.837 and then focus on fixing that 00:24:02.617 --> 00:24:06.247 Christian: someone said to me, every problem, every word 00:24:06.247 --> 00:24:07.447 problem is a people problem. 00:24:08.317 --> 00:24:11.377 So I guess that's kind of what, you're, what you're hinting at. 00:24:12.457 --> 00:24:15.457 Almost anything can be solved by building rapport and. 00:24:16.522 --> 00:24:17.002 Talking to 00:24:17.002 --> 00:24:17.332 Leonardo: people. 00:24:17.932 --> 00:24:18.202 Yeah. 00:24:18.592 --> 00:24:21.622 And look, there's always going to be people problems, but I think to 00:24:21.622 --> 00:24:24.832 take your quote, one step further, every challenge in an office, or 00:24:24.832 --> 00:24:28.402 every challenge in a business can be solved through a relationship by 00:24:28.402 --> 00:24:29.962 fixing something, improving something. 00:24:30.412 --> 00:24:31.912 But you're always going to have bad actors. 00:24:31.912 --> 00:24:33.592 You're always going to have different personalities. 00:24:33.862 --> 00:24:36.622 Hopefully you're working in a place where it's a culture of many cultures 00:24:37.282 --> 00:24:39.292 and it's not your place to change people. 00:24:39.502 --> 00:24:41.722 It's your place to change relationships with those people. 00:24:43.327 --> 00:24:48.367 Christian: I find a very effective thing to do when you join our organization 00:24:48.397 --> 00:24:54.427 is to take a bit of time to meet with your most important stakeholders for 15 00:24:54.427 --> 00:24:57.157 minutes, but make that meeting about them. 00:24:58.117 --> 00:24:59.167 How can I help you? 00:24:59.737 --> 00:25:01.207 What are your goals here? 00:25:01.357 --> 00:25:03.277 How can design help you reach your goals? 00:25:03.457 --> 00:25:06.787 What has the previous designer done that I could do better? 00:25:06.787 --> 00:25:08.617 Or what has the previous designer done that? 00:25:09.697 --> 00:25:14.437 You enjoyed and you liked, and I could continue doing, how can 00:25:14.437 --> 00:25:15.697 I help you reach your goals? 00:25:15.787 --> 00:25:20.977 All these questions, not only help you understand where everyone is 00:25:20.977 --> 00:25:26.017 coming from, which we touched upon earlier, but they also automatically 00:25:26.017 --> 00:25:30.067 straight away built trust because everyone who joins companies. 00:25:31.082 --> 00:25:34.582 Oh, that was, or rather should I say no one who joins companies does that. 00:25:34.702 --> 00:25:36.472 So you're setting yourself apart. 00:25:36.732 --> 00:25:40.752 Everyone will soon understand this person is here to be part of the team 00:25:41.352 --> 00:25:46.482 and to help everyone reach their goals rather than, or this is a as a new 00:25:46.482 --> 00:25:49.542 designer who joined and wants to change everything like all designers want to do. 00:25:49.932 --> 00:25:50.442 So. 00:25:50.472 --> 00:25:50.742 Yeah. 00:25:51.162 --> 00:25:51.822 I love that. 00:25:52.132 --> 00:25:56.022 I always say I always say to designers who were about to start their jobs. 00:25:57.252 --> 00:26:01.502 Take five to seven stakeholders and schedule 15 minutes meetings 00:26:01.562 --> 00:26:02.732 and ask them these questions. 00:26:03.062 --> 00:26:07.212 And you will see the change in their attitude towards you 00:26:07.212 --> 00:26:08.502 and attitude towards design. 00:26:09.462 --> 00:26:10.482 Leonardo: Yeah, I, I couldn't agree. 00:26:10.482 --> 00:26:14.592 More wonderful advice and I'll push that one step further and tell you that. 00:26:15.657 --> 00:26:19.257 Additionally successful is to create a space of vulnerability. 00:26:19.617 --> 00:26:22.257 So if you're, if you're doing a good job of connecting with people 00:26:22.257 --> 00:26:24.957 and you're helping them understand that you're there to help. 00:26:25.257 --> 00:26:25.827 That's great. 00:26:26.007 --> 00:26:26.517 And you're right. 00:26:26.577 --> 00:26:30.507 It leads to great relationships, but what leads to even better relationships 00:26:30.507 --> 00:26:33.537 or they understand that they can be vulnerable around you because 00:26:33.537 --> 00:26:34.497 you're vulnerable around them. 00:26:35.157 --> 00:26:38.007 And it's, it's a gamble, but I found success. 00:26:38.832 --> 00:26:40.302 Saying look, I'm here to help you. 00:26:40.302 --> 00:26:43.332 And here's what I can offer, but also here's what I can cause 00:26:43.332 --> 00:26:45.942 some growth opportunities for me are this, this and this. 00:26:46.272 --> 00:26:48.282 Maybe there's some coaching that you can provide on that front. 00:26:48.612 --> 00:26:51.792 So you're not asking, you're not only asking, you're only offering 00:26:51.792 --> 00:26:55.002 your help, but you're giving them an opportunity to help you back 00:26:55.182 --> 00:26:56.262 in something that they're good at. 00:26:56.742 --> 00:26:58.662 And so you're kind of jumping the line and building that 00:26:58.662 --> 00:27:00.642 rapport by creating that arable. 00:27:01.512 --> 00:27:01.842 Yeah. 00:27:02.232 --> 00:27:05.562 Christian: Well, this is also about talking and about asking. 00:27:05.862 --> 00:27:09.552 I find that whenever there's something I don't understand in the analytics of 00:27:09.552 --> 00:27:13.212 a product, if I go to the product and at least that we've got on a team, he would 00:27:13.212 --> 00:27:14.832 be more than happy to explain it to me. 00:27:14.832 --> 00:27:15.852 Cause that's his daily job. 00:27:15.882 --> 00:27:18.342 He loves everybody's daily jobs, just like I love it all my design. 00:27:18.342 --> 00:27:18.612 Right. 00:27:19.002 --> 00:27:24.162 So I think we need to get out of this little cubicles that we're sitting 00:27:24.162 --> 00:27:27.552 in, dude, there's design and there's engineering and then there's testing. 00:27:27.552 --> 00:27:27.732 And then. 00:27:28.497 --> 00:27:32.967 And have more conversation across these teams to try to understand each other. 00:27:33.027 --> 00:27:37.527 And the moment you do that, people are more likely to do things 00:27:37.527 --> 00:27:39.327 back for you is as you said. 00:27:39.777 --> 00:27:44.437 And I find those to be the best teams to work with. 00:27:45.047 --> 00:27:45.877 I couldn't run it more. 00:27:46.557 --> 00:27:49.257 So you've been around for 15, 20 years. 00:27:49.887 --> 00:27:53.397 And I can only assume that you have seen the role of a designer 00:27:53.397 --> 00:27:56.157 evolve into what it is today. 00:27:56.367 --> 00:28:00.567 What's your take on where it's going with, new technologies emerging and 00:28:00.567 --> 00:28:04.167 all of these uncertainties around, you know around the world and around 00:28:04.267 --> 00:28:07.277 web 3.0 and all of these things that nobody knows anything about. 00:28:07.747 --> 00:28:09.247 How do you see the role of designers fitting. 00:28:10.427 --> 00:28:13.127 Leonardo: Well, first of all, I'm super excited with how 00:28:13.157 --> 00:28:15.557 quickly the landscape changes. 00:28:16.862 --> 00:28:18.212 I know that can be frustrating. 00:28:18.512 --> 00:28:22.112 Uh, like five, maybe seven years ago when everyone was like, 00:28:22.562 --> 00:28:24.242 holy crap sketches, amazing. 00:28:24.812 --> 00:28:25.682 I want to discuss that. 00:28:25.712 --> 00:28:27.632 And then two years later was like, oh crap, here's Figma. 00:28:28.142 --> 00:28:30.632 And we all had to relearn like there. 00:28:30.692 --> 00:28:31.562 Yes, it's frustrating. 00:28:31.562 --> 00:28:33.182 But there's something really special about that. 00:28:33.182 --> 00:28:37.832 Like, we're changing so much so quickly that in and of itself is 00:28:37.832 --> 00:28:39.752 signal that there's value in what. 00:28:40.627 --> 00:28:44.227 There's an industry behind it and people want it to be faster and better. 00:28:44.587 --> 00:28:47.077 So that should be signaled to designers who are listening to this, that 00:28:47.077 --> 00:28:48.487 you are valuable, you're important. 00:28:48.817 --> 00:28:52.447 And you're a big part of businesses, whether they agree 00:28:52.447 --> 00:28:54.877 or don't like it, that's just, the industry is showing us that. 00:28:55.627 --> 00:28:58.507 And I'm going to date myself for a second, but to go from. 00:28:59.657 --> 00:29:03.467 Cold fusion studio, which was a macro media product, which 00:29:03.467 --> 00:29:06.677 eventually was purchased by a Adobe. 00:29:06.737 --> 00:29:07.607 And then it was sunset. 00:29:07.607 --> 00:29:11.057 Like that's when I started building products and it was literally two 00:29:11.057 --> 00:29:14.117 different, three different tools that I would use to create an 00:29:14.117 --> 00:29:17.897 experience, not to mention using flash to make that experience a little 00:29:17.897 --> 00:29:20.267 bit more approachable or funner. 00:29:21.137 --> 00:29:24.527 And so to have all of that change to have go from like four different 00:29:24.527 --> 00:29:25.687 tools that you're using to create a. 00:29:26.882 --> 00:29:32.882 To not even needing a tool and using a UI or just a IDE and write your 00:29:32.882 --> 00:29:35.642 code and it's done, it's amazing. 00:29:35.672 --> 00:29:37.592 That's tremendous growth for any industry. 00:29:37.922 --> 00:29:41.192 So it excites me so much in terms of where it's going. 00:29:41.912 --> 00:29:45.632 I, and who knows, like I don't even know much about the metaverse and I'm pretty 00:29:45.632 --> 00:29:47.482 close to the companies that are making it. 00:29:48.082 --> 00:29:51.982 But I think for designers, the advice there, the learning 00:29:51.982 --> 00:29:54.622 there, the maybe the insight is. 00:29:55.792 --> 00:29:58.982 To pay attention more than you ever have understand what tools people are 00:29:58.982 --> 00:30:02.882 using, why they're using them and go and beyond your own design tools look 00:30:02.882 --> 00:30:05.942 at the product development tools, look at the communication tools. 00:30:06.422 --> 00:30:07.892 Um, oh, I forget that. 00:30:07.892 --> 00:30:10.652 I can't think of the name of a tool that I've been using to take notes, 00:30:10.952 --> 00:30:14.912 but even look at like documentation tools and then start to piece together. 00:30:14.912 --> 00:30:15.392 What's good. 00:30:15.392 --> 00:30:19.172 What's bad where your friends are going and where companies are going and you'll 00:30:19.172 --> 00:30:20.582 start to be able to apply yourself. 00:30:21.547 --> 00:30:23.347 This massive change because it's not done. 00:30:23.617 --> 00:30:24.547 We're going to see even more. 00:30:25.087 --> 00:30:25.387 Yeah. 00:30:26.317 --> 00:30:31.807 Christian: Knowing the industry changes so fast, how can we prepare future 00:30:31.807 --> 00:30:35.407 designers in a better way to be adaptable? 00:30:36.332 --> 00:30:37.412 To be able to change. 00:30:37.682 --> 00:30:38.312 Leonardo: Yeah, damn. 00:30:38.312 --> 00:30:40.482 That's a million dollar question and 00:30:41.072 --> 00:30:41.372 Christian: knew, 00:30:43.772 --> 00:30:44.762 Leonardo: and I kind of am. 00:30:44.792 --> 00:30:47.192 I'm not personally, but I'm using a product. 00:30:47.192 --> 00:30:48.452 I'm part of an ecosystem. 00:30:48.572 --> 00:30:51.212 Uh, many of our listeners might know this already. 00:30:51.302 --> 00:30:52.502 It's called ADP list. 00:30:53.042 --> 00:30:54.542 Awesome design people's lists. 00:30:55.142 --> 00:30:59.432 And I think that's at the core of how to equip future generations 00:30:59.552 --> 00:31:01.862 to be amazing when you pair. 00:31:02.597 --> 00:31:05.627 People with mentorship that's meaningful and specific. 00:31:05.927 --> 00:31:08.027 And this goes back to a previous point you were making like, how can we 00:31:08.027 --> 00:31:12.857 help designers get that experience to navigate and to converse and to speak 00:31:12.857 --> 00:31:16.307 executive, to speak PM and to tell stories to engineers that inspire them. 00:31:16.937 --> 00:31:20.837 You can find mentors now so easily through platforms like ADP list, and 00:31:20.837 --> 00:31:24.557 I'm sure others, and then ask those questions like, Hey, can we role play? 00:31:24.827 --> 00:31:29.567 Can we just do this interview or do this a design crit, or do this product review? 00:31:30.232 --> 00:31:32.782 That's how you're going to get good at having those conversations 00:31:32.782 --> 00:31:33.622 with cross-functional partners. 00:31:33.622 --> 00:31:37.522 And that's how we're going to as leaders help future generations remain. 00:31:38.357 --> 00:31:38.627 Yeah, for 00:31:38.627 --> 00:31:38.867 Christian: sure. 00:31:38.867 --> 00:31:40.817 ADP list is an amazing tool. 00:31:40.997 --> 00:31:45.477 I'm there myself and, you also get something in return as a, as a mentor, uh, 00:31:45.507 --> 00:31:50.517 which is you can't really put a price on just knowing you contributed to someone's 00:31:50.517 --> 00:31:55.307 career just in a tiny little way, but you know, you've, you've contributed that. 00:31:55.307 --> 00:31:59.007 I remember growing up in designer. 00:31:59.587 --> 00:32:02.137 Really had any mentors, there was no platform where he could find 00:32:02.137 --> 00:32:03.457 people that was all of these things. 00:32:03.457 --> 00:32:04.597 I've kind of learned on my own. 00:32:04.897 --> 00:32:08.437 I can imagine how much faster you can learn and accelerate today. 00:32:08.467 --> 00:32:11.167 If you just use some of these tools, whether it's mentoring, whether it's 00:32:11.527 --> 00:32:14.317 podcasts, whether it's articles, whether it's books, whatever it is. 00:32:14.647 --> 00:32:18.097 Um, none of this was around when I started and certainly when we started. 00:32:18.097 --> 00:32:18.577 So, uh, 00:32:18.667 --> 00:32:18.847 Leonardo: yeah. 00:32:19.147 --> 00:32:19.507 Yeah. 00:32:20.227 --> 00:32:23.137 And really quickly you touched on something that I think is also valuable. 00:32:23.797 --> 00:32:25.117 The, the amount of COVID. 00:32:25.917 --> 00:32:30.627 Podcast content that we have access to is just remarkable. 00:32:31.107 --> 00:32:33.887 And in addition to the mentoring I do, and like the guidance 00:32:33.887 --> 00:32:36.137 I give with design, like. 00:32:36.872 --> 00:32:40.862 Probably do I also advise what are the podcasts that are teaching me things? 00:32:41.552 --> 00:32:42.452 And it's funny. 00:32:42.452 --> 00:32:45.392 Like what, what I learned from now is not what I expected. 00:32:45.392 --> 00:32:49.442 Like I learned from 99% invisible I'm Roman Mars podcast 00:32:49.742 --> 00:32:50.672 out of Oakland, California. 00:32:51.362 --> 00:32:52.682 It's amazing. 00:32:52.682 --> 00:32:54.572 And he talks about design, but it's abstract. 00:32:55.217 --> 00:32:57.737 In a way that gives you insights. 00:32:57.737 --> 00:32:59.957 It gleans into something that you weren't even thinking about. 00:33:00.407 --> 00:33:05.027 And I can't tell you how many times I've gone into an executive meeting room with 00:33:05.027 --> 00:33:10.457 like Roman Mars is amazing soothing voice in the back of my head telling a story and 00:33:10.457 --> 00:33:12.407 bringing insights to life the way he does. 00:33:12.797 --> 00:33:15.077 So, there's things to be gleaned from, from all of the podcast 00:33:15.077 --> 00:33:16.157 content that exists out there. 00:33:16.157 --> 00:33:21.167 And I think that's something we should build as designers and like a repository, 00:33:21.167 --> 00:33:22.637 a directory of some sort, that guy. 00:33:23.462 --> 00:33:26.492 Alongside mentors, guides designers to the content. 00:33:26.492 --> 00:33:28.862 That's going to help fortify some of the dimensions there's 00:33:28.862 --> 00:33:29.672 trying to get better at. 00:33:30.422 --> 00:33:32.312 Christian: So talking about content because there is a 00:33:32.312 --> 00:33:33.452 lot of content out there. 00:33:33.812 --> 00:33:37.652 And I said that today is probably one of the better times to become a designer 00:33:37.652 --> 00:33:40.802 because there is so much out there for free that you can just learn from. 00:33:41.312 --> 00:33:43.922 And someone counter argued. 00:33:45.017 --> 00:33:48.347 And said, well, actually I think this is one of the harder times to 00:33:48.347 --> 00:33:51.377 becomes a designer, but to become a designer because yeah, you've 00:33:51.377 --> 00:33:52.667 got all this information for sure. 00:33:52.667 --> 00:33:54.857 But first of all, you don't know what's legit and what's not. 00:33:55.337 --> 00:34:00.167 And second of all, the barrier of entry is much higher than 00:34:00.167 --> 00:34:01.877 it used to be 10, 15 years ago. 00:34:01.877 --> 00:34:05.477 It's when, as a junior designer, you're expected to just move mountains. 00:34:06.107 --> 00:34:06.887 What's your take on that? 00:34:06.887 --> 00:34:07.367 Is it easier? 00:34:07.427 --> 00:34:09.167 Is it harder to become a designer today? 00:34:09.317 --> 00:34:09.557 What would. 00:34:11.097 --> 00:34:12.387 Leonardo: I think that's fair. 00:34:12.507 --> 00:34:13.017 and I'll be honest. 00:34:13.017 --> 00:34:17.307 I haven't given it much thought, but it's a great thing to explore and just shooting 00:34:17.307 --> 00:34:18.987 from the hip or thinking out loud. 00:34:20.607 --> 00:34:24.597 I think there's definitely expectations that are unrealistic. 00:34:24.657 --> 00:34:29.877 I've seen job descriptions for startups, and they're asking for like 10 years 00:34:29.877 --> 00:34:35.367 of experience in Figma, it's like relaxed, but, and then when you get 00:34:35.367 --> 00:34:39.617 to the job, There's also unrealistic expectations to take things end to end 00:34:39.647 --> 00:34:42.527 without having done that before and without having any guidance to do so. 00:34:43.457 --> 00:34:48.337 And I think it starts with schools, D design schools and just universities 00:34:49.747 --> 00:34:54.097 smartly redesigning their curriculum to meet the demands of the companies 00:34:54.097 --> 00:34:55.687 that's where the change needs to start. 00:34:56.317 --> 00:35:00.397 But I think to help designers in this really high bar, this different, 00:35:00.547 --> 00:35:03.127 if it is difficult, which I trust it is, or more difficult than it 00:35:03.127 --> 00:35:04.897 ever was to become a designer. 00:35:05.992 --> 00:35:09.472 The guidance that I've given folks is to be an expert at something like find 00:35:09.472 --> 00:35:13.912 the niche or that, that bar that goes down in the T shape of your designer 00:35:13.912 --> 00:35:19.612 life and hone that craft become valuable in something more specific, and then 00:35:19.612 --> 00:35:22.822 go after the roles that are looking for that thing more than anything else. 00:35:23.422 --> 00:35:27.232 And if they get that one good thing from you, whether it's motion 00:35:27.232 --> 00:35:32.287 designer or the UX designer, And then you have the opportunity 00:35:32.287 --> 00:35:33.067 to build the trust, to do that. 00:35:33.067 --> 00:35:36.067 Well, then you're going to grow in the other dimensions that you need to, so 00:35:36.247 --> 00:35:39.547 maybe, yeah, if it's harder, hone in on the thing that you think is the most 00:35:39.547 --> 00:35:43.957 valuable for the types of jobs you want to go after and focus on growing there. 00:35:44.677 --> 00:35:44.937 I, I 00:35:44.947 --> 00:35:47.557 Christian: forgive, I will take that even further I always give 00:35:47.557 --> 00:35:49.747 that advice to people who ask. 00:35:50.752 --> 00:35:53.512 Oh, what is your advice on how to design portfolios? 00:35:53.512 --> 00:35:57.202 And I say, don't necessarily put your best work there, put the 00:35:57.202 --> 00:35:58.492 work that you want to do more of. 00:35:59.092 --> 00:36:04.582 So if you want to do business to business software as a service, Put all the 00:36:04.582 --> 00:36:07.792 businesses business or not all, you know, put the best business to business software 00:36:07.792 --> 00:36:11.782 as a surface experience you've got there because in my experience, whenever we 00:36:11.782 --> 00:36:15.112 go and look at the portfolio, you go and look at portfolio with a problem in mind. 00:36:15.172 --> 00:36:16.342 You've you've in your team. 00:36:16.342 --> 00:36:19.282 You've got a problem to solve, which is we need someone to do X. 00:36:19.852 --> 00:36:23.032 And who are you more likely to want to have a conversation with 00:36:23.032 --> 00:36:24.112 off the back of a portfolio? 00:36:24.112 --> 00:36:28.102 Someone who's done X a million times before or someone who's dabbled in 00:36:28.102 --> 00:36:29.962 a, B and C and a little bit of X. 00:36:30.292 --> 00:36:30.472 Yeah. 00:36:31.377 --> 00:36:33.987 So I only say focus. 00:36:34.467 --> 00:36:36.747 Leonardo: I don't think you're wrong, Christian, but let me 00:36:37.137 --> 00:36:38.367 maybe challenge that a little bit. 00:36:38.427 --> 00:36:42.387 And there's two things I want to say one, I've heard the feedback and I've 00:36:42.387 --> 00:36:46.047 given the feedback of having a liquid portfolio, one that adapts to the 00:36:46.047 --> 00:36:47.667 needs of what you're applying for. 00:36:47.967 --> 00:36:50.717 So you might have various pages in your portfolio that speaks 00:36:50.717 --> 00:36:51.987 to different things, right? 00:36:52.017 --> 00:36:52.797 That's not bad advice. 00:36:52.797 --> 00:36:53.367 I think that's good. 00:36:53.367 --> 00:36:56.817 And it's a lot of work, but like you said, that's the job, like do the 00:36:56.817 --> 00:37:00.807 work, show the work, but the thing that's controversial that I'll say is. 00:37:02.757 --> 00:37:09.207 I don't agree that showing only the best pieces or to your point, nuanced 00:37:09.207 --> 00:37:13.527 pieces, like a handful of them five to 10 is the right approach anymore. 00:37:14.007 --> 00:37:17.817 And I think showing as much as you can, as quickly as. 00:37:18.802 --> 00:37:19.642 Is a better approach. 00:37:19.732 --> 00:37:21.762 And I have a hypothesis why that's true. 00:37:21.832 --> 00:37:23.962 And you can blow it out of the water if you, if you feel like it. 00:37:23.992 --> 00:37:29.872 But the way that we consume information as hiring managers, as executives, frankly, 00:37:29.872 --> 00:37:33.652 as people like, if we're on Tik TOK or Instagram, and we scroll so quickly 00:37:33.652 --> 00:37:38.692 through things, we are grokking harder concepts so much faster than ever before. 00:37:39.352 --> 00:37:41.872 And I think we haven't applied that thinking to when we're doing our 00:37:41.872 --> 00:37:43.372 own storytelling, our own selling. 00:37:43.942 --> 00:37:45.142 And when I look at portfolio. 00:37:45.907 --> 00:37:51.217 Like you or any design leader it's usually in between meetings, um, TMI, but it's 00:37:51.217 --> 00:37:55.297 also maybe when you're on the toilet, it's when you have those split seconds of time. 00:37:55.747 --> 00:37:57.907 So what's better in that mental model or what's better in that 00:37:57.907 --> 00:38:02.827 use case to show deep, thoughtful, well, articulated multi-page. 00:38:03.997 --> 00:38:07.387 Or to just show all of the amazing swagger that you're able to produce. 00:38:07.657 --> 00:38:11.887 And then when I'm interested, let me dig in, but that principle of progressively 00:38:11.887 --> 00:38:16.927 revealing, but starting by showing everything seems like it's going to 00:38:16.927 --> 00:38:20.077 land you or serve you better than not. 00:38:20.807 --> 00:38:23.367 Christian: We had on a podcast a director of design at Salesforce. 00:38:24.162 --> 00:38:30.202 And she said that she only has, anywhere between 15 and 20 00:38:30.202 --> 00:38:34.872 seconds for each portfolio, she sees it as an initial opinion. 00:38:34.872 --> 00:38:35.112 Right. 00:38:35.142 --> 00:38:35.832 But that's how you met. 00:38:35.862 --> 00:38:38.802 That's how much time you've got to make the first impression. 00:38:38.802 --> 00:38:44.022 And he said, oh, she said one of the, one of the aspects of a portfolio that 00:38:44.022 --> 00:38:47.562 attracts my attention straight away is when someone can write really well. 00:38:48.432 --> 00:38:51.402 What the project is about in two or three sentences. 00:38:51.912 --> 00:38:53.202 And then that acts as a. 00:38:54.267 --> 00:38:55.647 But it interests me or not. 00:38:55.827 --> 00:38:58.347 That's a whole different, you as a designer, don't 00:38:58.347 --> 00:38:59.457 have any control over that. 00:38:59.947 --> 00:39:04.327 But what you can, what you do have control over is how well you can 00:39:04.327 --> 00:39:05.977 write that hook, that introduction. 00:39:06.157 --> 00:39:07.087 So maybe it's a bit 00:39:07.087 --> 00:39:08.767 Leonardo: similar to what you're saying it is. 00:39:08.767 --> 00:39:12.757 And I'll build on that point and say, cause 90 sounds very smart. 00:39:12.787 --> 00:39:13.567 It's a great advice. 00:39:13.987 --> 00:39:14.647 And it's very true. 00:39:14.647 --> 00:39:17.617 I don't think it's an exaggeration if you're able to. 00:39:18.817 --> 00:39:22.447 Tell your story in a traditional three-part way, the way that cinema tell 00:39:22.447 --> 00:39:27.397 stories, you introduce the characters, you introduce drama and tension, and then you 00:39:27.397 --> 00:39:28.897 get to this resolution and close it out. 00:39:29.287 --> 00:39:33.817 The faster you can give me as a hiring manager, that three-part story. 00:39:34.177 --> 00:39:35.977 The more likely I am to read another story. 00:39:36.037 --> 00:39:36.127 Okay. 00:39:36.907 --> 00:39:38.947 And then start earning trust that yeah. 00:39:38.947 --> 00:39:40.607 This person got 00:39:40.627 --> 00:39:40.717 what 00:39:40.717 --> 00:39:40.897 Christian: it takes. 00:39:41.467 --> 00:39:41.827 Yeah. 00:39:41.917 --> 00:39:42.337 Do you know what? 00:39:42.397 --> 00:39:44.017 It just, it just clicked with me now. 00:39:44.497 --> 00:39:47.917 Cause you said tick-tock earlier, which I don't use, but uh, you know, I am on 00:39:47.917 --> 00:39:51.547 Instagram and you know, kind of the same algorithm are behind it kind of the same 00:39:51.967 --> 00:39:55.297 user behavior of scrolling endlessly. 00:39:55.987 --> 00:39:56.257 Sure. 00:39:57.127 --> 00:40:01.507 Your portfolio or a study case of your portfolio in tick-tock 00:40:01.507 --> 00:40:05.437 format or an Instagram or whatever people can just scroll through. 00:40:05.497 --> 00:40:07.297 Oh, great. 00:40:07.297 --> 00:40:07.747 You know what? 00:40:08.127 --> 00:40:09.227 I might cut this up now. 00:40:09.227 --> 00:40:09.957 I won't, I won't. 00:40:10.557 --> 00:40:11.657 I was like, whoa. 00:40:11.917 --> 00:40:16.057 If people are on Instagram anyway, and it's just so happens that 00:40:16.057 --> 00:40:17.047 they're looking for a designer. 00:40:17.872 --> 00:40:20.182 Well, how about them scrolling through study cases 00:40:21.382 --> 00:40:23.062 Leonardo: and let the algorithm work for you? 00:40:23.062 --> 00:40:27.442 Like if you've been on LinkedIn and they have some of that tracking data, 00:40:27.742 --> 00:40:31.132 maybe they know that you're an executive or you're in a business, right. 00:40:31.162 --> 00:40:33.982 And then you can even boost and promote your posts, like spend exactly 00:40:34.012 --> 00:40:37.252 spend the 10 bucks on Instagram to boost your post and let it be like 00:40:37.252 --> 00:40:41.152 a multi-page swiping, Which is your screens from your portfolio, for sure. 00:40:41.222 --> 00:40:41.522 Christian: Yeah. 00:40:43.312 --> 00:40:43.612 Yeah. 00:40:44.032 --> 00:40:47.822 So there's something that I really want to talk about, before the end, because 00:40:48.782 --> 00:40:53.462 if years ago I was planning a talk about design ethics, and I just put it together. 00:40:53.462 --> 00:40:54.422 I put the narrative together. 00:40:54.422 --> 00:40:55.592 I just couldn't make it stick. 00:40:56.012 --> 00:40:57.012 And I find very few days. 00:40:57.012 --> 00:40:57.062 Yeah. 00:40:57.607 --> 00:40:58.447 Talk about this. 00:40:58.447 --> 00:41:00.517 I mean, we know Mike Montero that's all the time. 00:41:00.547 --> 00:41:03.907 He's probably the most well-known cause he's, you know abrasive 00:41:03.937 --> 00:41:05.137 and loves talking about it. 00:41:05.137 --> 00:41:06.967 So that's, that's why it's so great to follow him. 00:41:07.297 --> 00:41:07.867 He is the man. 00:41:08.677 --> 00:41:13.417 Uh, so you also talk about design ethics in one of your articles, and 00:41:13.477 --> 00:41:15.607 I thought it would be an interesting matter to discuss with you. 00:41:15.607 --> 00:41:18.337 So let's dive a bit into ethics and. 00:41:18.942 --> 00:41:22.962 What is for everyone who doesn't haven't hasn't thought about this 00:41:22.992 --> 00:41:28.302 what's ethics and how does one practice ethical design on a daily basis? 00:41:28.872 --> 00:41:30.342 Leonardo: Um, it's a great question. 00:41:30.342 --> 00:41:34.422 It's a complex one too, because you can like Mike Montero does, you could 00:41:34.422 --> 00:41:39.222 talk about design ethics for days and you should, because designers have. 00:41:40.217 --> 00:41:45.427 A lot of responsibility in terms of keeping society on a healthy path, 00:41:45.727 --> 00:41:47.887 because we're the ones that are putting the products in their hands. 00:41:48.277 --> 00:41:51.927 And we're the ones that are potentially causing or creating 00:41:52.077 --> 00:41:53.517 an ability for misuse cases. 00:41:53.757 --> 00:41:56.367 And that's the core of what design ethics is. 00:41:57.147 --> 00:42:02.937 A good designer has the ability to look beyond the use cases they're solving. 00:42:03.942 --> 00:42:08.892 And to almost do postmortems, rather pre-mortems on how their product 00:42:08.922 --> 00:42:10.932 is going to be used and misused. 00:42:11.712 --> 00:42:16.092 And it's a dark experience to go through this with your team, but because you're 00:42:16.092 --> 00:42:19.542 going through some really serious things, like what if somebody uses 00:42:19.542 --> 00:42:25.192 your targeting UI in the, in an app platform to divide two zip codes or 00:42:25.192 --> 00:42:26.332 two different parts of the city. 00:42:27.022 --> 00:42:29.252 One where there's a lot of underserved under. 00:42:30.107 --> 00:42:35.237 Minorities and one where there's affluent, you know, more homogenized communities and 00:42:35.237 --> 00:42:39.677 you're able to target them with different messages at the same time to the same end. 00:42:40.487 --> 00:42:41.477 That is a misuse case. 00:42:41.957 --> 00:42:42.557 That's awful. 00:42:43.157 --> 00:42:48.107 And unless you think about how can my solution be, who is for bad, 00:42:48.767 --> 00:42:52.777 you're not doing a good job in design ethics, and you're frankly not. 00:42:53.797 --> 00:42:55.807 At the level of designing that you should be. 00:42:56.527 --> 00:43:01.567 And so design ethics is more of a practice and being able to look beyond the use 00:43:01.567 --> 00:43:03.537 cases and look at things more broadly. 00:43:04.407 --> 00:43:06.777 I think when I think about design ethics, just for, to give you a more 00:43:06.777 --> 00:43:11.127 tactical or your listeners, more tactical advice on how to implement it starts 00:43:11.127 --> 00:43:12.567 with the core of what you're building. 00:43:12.957 --> 00:43:16.047 I think what's important to do is have design ethics conversation. 00:43:17.112 --> 00:43:20.152 At the design system level, when you're building components when you're 00:43:20.152 --> 00:43:23.122 looking at the atoms of what you're about to build, how can each of the 00:43:23.122 --> 00:43:27.892 pieces be misused or be misinterpreted or be ignored when they shouldn't be? 00:43:28.192 --> 00:43:32.602 And if you build that into your platform, if you will like where that kind of work 00:43:32.602 --> 00:43:36.022 is happening, as well as accessibility and inclusion, best practices, build 00:43:36.022 --> 00:43:39.982 that into where you're building the building blocks of your products. 00:43:40.252 --> 00:43:43.072 Then inherently the products that you build are going to have designer. 00:43:44.077 --> 00:43:48.307 And accessibility and inclusion built in, but then you also need 00:43:48.307 --> 00:43:49.867 to do checkpoints along the way. 00:43:50.467 --> 00:43:52.867 At Spotify, we have an amazing product development process 00:43:52.867 --> 00:43:54.547 with what we call phase gates. 00:43:54.547 --> 00:43:57.307 So everyone's familiar with the phases of a product dev process. 00:43:57.787 --> 00:44:00.637 Understand it, think it, build it, ship it, tweak it. 00:44:01.597 --> 00:44:05.167 That's great, but what's better is to have phase gates where 00:44:05.167 --> 00:44:06.517 you have design emphasis in the. 00:44:07.582 --> 00:44:08.782 Running these kinds of workshops. 00:44:08.782 --> 00:44:11.422 So after the understand phase, before you go into the thinking, 00:44:12.172 --> 00:44:15.772 you're sinking with design ethics, thinkers, and you're getting their 00:44:15.772 --> 00:44:17.482 input before you go to the next phase. 00:44:17.482 --> 00:44:19.672 And then again, before you go to the building, and then again, before you 00:44:19.672 --> 00:44:24.442 go to the shipper, I think that's world-class design ethics practice and 00:44:24.502 --> 00:44:25.882 what we're striving to do at Spotify. 00:44:26.512 --> 00:44:29.362 Christian: Yeah, that sounds awesome too, to be able to 00:44:29.362 --> 00:44:31.642 have those person in the room. 00:44:32.407 --> 00:44:36.427 To counsel or guide you or guide the product development process. 00:44:36.937 --> 00:44:37.507 The other. 00:44:38.467 --> 00:44:41.887 Aspect of this that I've heard before is what you just need to create some 00:44:41.887 --> 00:44:46.237 sort of guidelines, some sort of design values, and then make sure that 00:44:46.507 --> 00:44:48.007 every single day you follow those. 00:44:48.007 --> 00:44:52.147 But I find that whenever you do that, it's so easy to get lost in a day 00:44:52.147 --> 00:44:56.197 to day that you kind of forgetting about it, but I find your approach to 00:44:56.197 --> 00:45:00.037 say, well, let's get a team together and talk about how could this. 00:45:01.377 --> 00:45:01.977 Misused. 00:45:02.187 --> 00:45:05.787 I find that to be a much more accessible approach, something you can do as part 00:45:05.787 --> 00:45:09.987 of your product development process, much easier to tackle than just every 00:45:09.987 --> 00:45:11.607 single thing I move in in Figma. 00:45:11.607 --> 00:45:17.337 I have to think through these 10 values and principles and it's just too complex. 00:45:17.397 --> 00:45:20.427 So I find your approach to be that much more accessible. 00:45:20.997 --> 00:45:21.237 Yeah. 00:45:21.687 --> 00:45:25.407 You've also written an article about design critiques. 00:45:25.437 --> 00:45:27.717 Um, probably should have talked about this a bit earlier, but. 00:45:28.532 --> 00:45:32.682 You're saying how these are a fundamental part of the design process. 00:45:32.682 --> 00:45:35.742 So let's talk about design critiques, because I find a lot 00:45:35.742 --> 00:45:39.072 of companies are not doing them or maybe not doing them as well as. 00:45:40.227 --> 00:45:41.517 Leonardo: Yeah, well, I think you're right. 00:45:41.517 --> 00:45:44.657 I think design crits for, if it's new to you, it's commonly referred 00:45:44.657 --> 00:45:48.107 to the design crits, but they are critiques there, their sessions. 00:45:48.107 --> 00:45:51.767 When you get your team together to understand the challenge that 00:45:51.767 --> 00:45:54.887 you're working on as an individual contributor, and then you show 00:45:54.887 --> 00:45:59.057 them your approach and solutioning, and then they're there to offer. 00:45:59.972 --> 00:46:00.482 Critiques. 00:46:00.542 --> 00:46:03.332 And I think that's where some of the problem lies. 00:46:03.902 --> 00:46:05.612 It shouldn't feel like you're critiquing. 00:46:05.852 --> 00:46:07.502 It should feel like you're asking questions. 00:46:07.892 --> 00:46:11.432 And so in, in, I think the article you're referring to was kind of a guide to a 00:46:11.432 --> 00:46:17.762 good, to running a good crit that starts with provocations that feel healthy, 00:46:17.852 --> 00:46:20.702 not that feels like you're attacking the designer that you're in the critique with. 00:46:21.152 --> 00:46:22.922 And so framing, everything is a question. 00:46:23.372 --> 00:46:27.272 And I'll give you an example, like I can tell you Christian amazing use of. 00:46:28.322 --> 00:46:32.772 But I think blue is going to work better for the CTA, because red is 00:46:32.772 --> 00:46:37.242 just like a negative situation for a lot of cultures probably makes 00:46:37.242 --> 00:46:40.602 sense and probably good advice, but that framing being prescriptive and 00:46:40.602 --> 00:46:45.252 saying you should use is the wrong approach and you'll get defensive. 00:46:45.492 --> 00:46:45.732 Yeah. 00:46:45.732 --> 00:46:46.452 You'll get defensive. 00:46:47.022 --> 00:46:49.512 And you create this air of defensiveness for the entire team. 00:46:49.962 --> 00:46:51.132 A better approach would be Christian. 00:46:51.372 --> 00:46:53.022 I love the way the button looks. 00:46:53.052 --> 00:46:55.142 I love the type style that we're choosing. 00:46:55.142 --> 00:46:56.312 I love the evolution of the CTA. 00:46:57.452 --> 00:47:01.002 I wonder, have you tried different color palettes and you can, and 00:47:01.002 --> 00:47:02.262 then you can say actually, yeah. 00:47:02.292 --> 00:47:02.772 And you know what? 00:47:02.772 --> 00:47:07.302 We tested everything and what tested the best was this red suddenly 00:47:07.782 --> 00:47:10.272 I'm like, all right, I just got educated and now I have an insight. 00:47:10.512 --> 00:47:12.132 And now I know why Chris had made that decision. 00:47:12.552 --> 00:47:15.492 So that's step one is framing things as a question then being constructive. 00:47:15.492 --> 00:47:19.182 But step two obviously is back on the presenter of the critique 00:47:19.482 --> 00:47:20.352 you Christian could have. 00:47:22.082 --> 00:47:26.192 We've tested these dimensions and this design and give us, equip us with 00:47:26.192 --> 00:47:27.662 all of the background that you can. 00:47:27.992 --> 00:47:29.942 That's another really good step to take the critiques. 00:47:30.422 --> 00:47:32.042 Come show up with background. 00:47:32.372 --> 00:47:35.672 Assume nobody knows anything about your solution and take 00:47:35.672 --> 00:47:36.722 the time to educate them. 00:47:36.962 --> 00:47:38.042 You're going to get better feedback. 00:47:38.042 --> 00:47:38.102 Yeah. 00:47:39.282 --> 00:47:42.672 Christian: And this also helps build transparency into the design process 00:47:42.672 --> 00:47:46.032 in your organization, which in turn also builds more trust down the line. 00:47:46.032 --> 00:47:47.302 We've talked a lot about trust today. 00:47:47.302 --> 00:47:52.312 So I think whenever you open up and you start to explain to people, not 00:47:52.312 --> 00:47:54.952 what you don't give them the result, but you talk about the process, so they 00:47:54.952 --> 00:47:56.272 know how you got to the end result. 00:47:56.632 --> 00:47:59.512 There are also sometimes that as you just get. 00:48:00.202 --> 00:48:05.272 Exemplified earlier gets rid of a lot of the concerns or a lot of the 00:48:05.512 --> 00:48:08.902 critiques, because now I understand where this decision is coming from. 00:48:09.232 --> 00:48:12.442 Therefore, there's no reason for me to ask about the color palette. 00:48:12.892 --> 00:48:13.762 Leonardo: That's exactly right. 00:48:13.852 --> 00:48:16.282 Um, let me make that last point though, or the last point that I was 00:48:16.282 --> 00:48:19.282 going to make, and I wanted to start with, this was words matter a lot. 00:48:19.282 --> 00:48:20.122 We, we know that. 00:48:20.782 --> 00:48:23.852 So we actually just switched away from calling design crits, or 00:48:23.852 --> 00:48:25.972 critiques, and we call it design hour. 00:48:26.782 --> 00:48:30.722 But that suddenly just softens it's so much better for sure. 00:48:31.052 --> 00:48:35.372 And so I just wanted to give that insight as well as it is what you call it. 00:48:35.552 --> 00:48:37.802 So call it what it is, call it what you want it to be. 00:48:38.192 --> 00:48:39.002 It's a design hour. 00:48:39.062 --> 00:48:39.902 It's collaborative. 00:48:39.932 --> 00:48:40.682 It's informative. 00:48:41.282 --> 00:48:42.452 It's it should be fun. 00:48:42.812 --> 00:48:44.492 So call it something that resonates. 00:48:45.002 --> 00:48:46.292 Christian: I love that, right? 00:48:46.292 --> 00:48:46.662 Leonardo. 00:48:46.682 --> 00:48:47.492 We're nearing the end. 00:48:47.612 --> 00:48:49.772 I've got two more questions, which everyone gets asked 00:48:49.772 --> 00:48:50.642 at the end of the podcast. 00:48:50.642 --> 00:48:53.732 So the first one is what is one soft skill that you wish 00:48:53.762 --> 00:48:54.962 more designers would possess? 00:48:55.937 --> 00:48:56.117 That's 00:48:56.117 --> 00:48:56.627 Leonardo: a good one. 00:48:57.077 --> 00:49:00.407 Um, I think designers are mostly good at this, but what we talked 00:49:00.407 --> 00:49:03.947 about earlier in like building up on empathy means listening. 00:49:04.877 --> 00:49:11.117 It means hearing more than you say, giving more than you take and that that's 00:49:11.117 --> 00:49:14.057 a soft skill or that translates to a soft skill, just being a good listener. 00:49:14.687 --> 00:49:18.287 And, but we're also creative than I am one too, or I will interject and 00:49:18.287 --> 00:49:19.337 I will cut off if I have something. 00:49:20.687 --> 00:49:21.767 It's bad behavior. 00:49:21.827 --> 00:49:25.247 And I think it's good behavior to figure out how can I become a 00:49:25.247 --> 00:49:27.527 better listener because it's going to make you a better designer. 00:49:27.587 --> 00:49:30.077 You're going to get more information it's going to fuel you sure. 00:49:30.407 --> 00:49:32.597 Christian: But the other one is what's one piece of advice that has 00:49:32.597 --> 00:49:34.217 changed your career for the better. 00:49:35.207 --> 00:49:38.627 Leonardo: Well, aside from the metrics mindedness that, uh was instilled 00:49:38.627 --> 00:49:42.617 in me early in my career, I'll build on something I said earlier 00:49:42.617 --> 00:49:48.377 and say having a strong point of view that is data backed, but also. 00:49:50.112 --> 00:49:54.492 Comes with passion and it comes with experience is going to give you a lot 00:49:54.492 --> 00:49:56.532 of opportunities in your career growth. 00:49:57.072 --> 00:50:01.872 And I don't say that to mean be a bully, be the loudest voice in the room. 00:50:02.452 --> 00:50:06.142 Obviously that's not going to help you, but if you're decisive and you're 00:50:06.142 --> 00:50:10.012 intentional and you have a strong point of view, and then you say why 00:50:10.012 --> 00:50:12.562 you have that strong point of view, even if the point of view is wrong, or 00:50:12.562 --> 00:50:16.122 even if somebody challenges it, you're kind of showing that you have this. 00:50:17.127 --> 00:50:22.347 To navigate really complex spaces with passion and strong ability, 00:50:23.367 --> 00:50:24.537 and you're going to get shit done. 00:50:25.017 --> 00:50:27.927 And I think at the end of the day, designers, that exude that 00:50:27.927 --> 00:50:30.147 energy of like, I'm ready to rock. 00:50:30.177 --> 00:50:31.137 I'm ready to go. 00:50:31.557 --> 00:50:32.337 Give me a challenge. 00:50:32.337 --> 00:50:35.127 And I'm going to tell you what I think we should do about it is better than 00:50:35.127 --> 00:50:36.627 being the silent voice in the room. 00:50:37.947 --> 00:50:38.547 Christian: I love that. 00:50:38.997 --> 00:50:41.307 I love that analogy at the end that you made here. 00:50:41.397 --> 00:50:42.447 I'm ready to rock and roll. 00:50:42.507 --> 00:50:43.907 Let's go there. 00:50:43.907 --> 00:50:45.807 Another, this has been an absolute pleasure. 00:50:45.867 --> 00:50:49.167 I think I've learned a lot and I'm pretty sure the listeners have as well, 00:50:49.167 --> 00:50:52.647 but just in case they want to follow up just in case they want to follow 00:50:52.647 --> 00:50:55.077 you on whatever social media you're on. 00:50:55.167 --> 00:50:56.247 How can they get ahold of you? 00:50:57.522 --> 00:51:00.822 Leonardo: I'm an oversharer and I'm an open book and, uh, I am active 00:51:00.822 --> 00:51:04.632 on Instagram, mostly with art and design that I curate and collect. 00:51:04.722 --> 00:51:06.192 And it's Delarosa with the zero. 00:51:06.492 --> 00:51:09.142 And then obviously you can find me on LinkedIn, Leonardo De La Rocha. 00:51:09.192 --> 00:51:11.202 I come up and yeah, connect with me. 00:51:11.262 --> 00:51:12.912 And you can also find me on ADP list. 00:51:12.912 --> 00:51:17.692 I don't have a lot of time these days, but whenever I unlock my calendar my calendar. 00:51:18.577 --> 00:51:18.877 Christian: For sure. 00:51:18.907 --> 00:51:19.987 We'll put this in the show notes. 00:51:19.987 --> 00:51:21.997 So it's easy for our listeners to find you. 00:51:22.327 --> 00:51:24.307 They're not, now this has been an absolute pleasure. 00:51:24.307 --> 00:51:27.367 So thank you one more time for being part of the Design Meets business 00:51:27.367 --> 00:51:28.477 journey as I like to call it. 00:51:28.867 --> 00:51:30.187 And, um, we'll be in touch soon. 00:51:30.907 --> 00:51:31.327 Leonardo: Wonderful. 00:51:31.327 --> 00:51:31.597 Christine. 00:51:31.597 --> 00:51:32.587 It's been my pleasure as well. 00:51:32.617 --> 00:51:33.427 Thanks for inviting me. 00:51:36.667 --> 00:51:37.867 Christian: That's a wrap for today. 00:51:38.167 --> 00:51:41.797 I hope you found this episode useful and that you've learned something that you're 00:51:41.797 --> 00:51:43.507 ready to implement that work tomorrow. 00:51:44.077 --> 00:51:45.067 If you've enjoyed this. 00:51:45.762 --> 00:51:48.162 It would mean the world to me, if you'd share it with your 00:51:48.162 --> 00:51:50.082 community, if you'd leave a review. 00:51:50.202 --> 00:51:54.012 And of course, if you'd remember to tune in for the next one, peace.