WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:01.020 --> 00:00:06.330 Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who 00:00:06.330 --> 00:00:12.090 see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care. 00:00:12.780 --> 00:00:14.970 I'm Uncle Herrmann and I'm your host. 00:00:15.510 --> 00:00:20.790 I talk to wholesome humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people. 00:00:21.210 --> 00:00:23.550 So come and join us for today's conversation. 00:00:25.172 --> 00:00:27.602 Anke: Hello and welcome Dr. 00:00:27.602 --> 00:00:28.172 Holly. 00:00:28.262 --> 00:00:29.792 I'm super excited to have you here. 00:00:30.422 --> 00:00:31.892 Holly: Thank you so much for inviting me. 00:00:31.892 --> 00:00:32.882 I really appreciate it. 00:00:33.872 --> 00:00:36.602 Anke: Well, I'm very much looking forward to chatting to you 00:00:36.602 --> 00:00:38.972 because it feels, you know, it's one of those funny ones because. 00:00:40.112 --> 00:00:43.922 I've attended your summit, so I've seen a lot more you than you have of me. 00:00:43.922 --> 00:00:49.472 So that's quite, and uh, so let's fill people in, let people know 00:00:49.472 --> 00:00:52.577 where, where you're based and you know, what's your business. 00:00:54.422 --> 00:00:56.732 Holly: So I'm based in London, in the uk. 00:00:56.762 --> 00:00:59.162 Um, but I work with people all around the world. 00:00:59.162 --> 00:01:02.672 I'm really lucky to be able to connect with people in loads of different places. 00:01:03.032 --> 00:01:05.582 And I have a bit of a hybrid business. 00:01:05.642 --> 00:01:09.512 Um, so I'm a clinical psychologist and I kind of did that first. 00:01:10.232 --> 00:01:14.672 So I, um, I work with just a small number of people therapeutically, but 00:01:14.672 --> 00:01:17.012 exclusively only people that have dogs. 00:01:17.042 --> 00:01:19.082 So that's a little specialist thing that I do there. 00:01:19.442 --> 00:01:22.202 Um, and then I also support dog guardians. 00:01:22.207 --> 00:01:25.087 With their dogs, but with that human lens. 00:01:25.327 --> 00:01:28.447 So it's not just about how do we work with the dog, but actually 00:01:28.447 --> 00:01:29.827 how is the human feeling? 00:01:29.827 --> 00:01:31.357 What's that connection there? 00:01:31.657 --> 00:01:34.627 How can we help everyone to feel a little bit better in a 00:01:34.627 --> 00:01:35.857 kind of trauma informed way? 00:01:36.217 --> 00:01:38.947 And then just lastly, I work with dog professionals as well. 00:01:38.947 --> 00:01:42.787 So supporting them to grow their businesses in a way that feels 00:01:42.787 --> 00:01:45.757 ethical, not kind of nasty and salesy. 00:01:45.787 --> 00:01:48.247 So I do a whole spectrum of different things. 00:01:48.277 --> 00:01:49.867 Um, yeah, very busy. 00:01:49.867 --> 00:01:50.412 Why kind of go. 00:01:52.667 --> 00:01:56.237 Anke: So, so I, I think it's totally fascinating to kind of like, okay. 00:01:56.237 --> 00:02:01.097 You know, like it makes sense that on that emotional level dogs and people 00:02:01.097 --> 00:02:02.897 that it's sort of very intertwined. 00:02:02.897 --> 00:02:04.487 You know, we kind of, it's like, yeah. 00:02:04.487 --> 00:02:07.307 You know how dogs can smell when you, when you're scared. 00:02:07.337 --> 00:02:07.517 Yeah. 00:02:07.517 --> 00:02:12.677 So they can hook into all kinds of, of, so what was sort of 00:02:12.677 --> 00:02:14.177 the trigger point for you two? 00:02:14.177 --> 00:02:18.527 Like, so you did your psychology, you worked with people, like how 00:02:18.527 --> 00:02:20.027 did the dogs come into all that? 00:02:21.047 --> 00:02:25.997 Holly: It's the age old story of my own dog who was struggling with life. 00:02:26.057 --> 00:02:29.567 Bless his heart, he was a real accidental puppy. 00:02:29.837 --> 00:02:32.927 So it was a case of I was working in an inpatient ward 00:02:32.927 --> 00:02:34.277 at the time, my colleague had. 00:02:35.162 --> 00:02:36.902 For whatever reason, we won't judge him. 00:02:37.172 --> 00:02:42.392 Brought a puppy home and, um, the dog had initially come from an abusive situation. 00:02:42.392 --> 00:02:46.172 He quote unquote, saved him, brought him home, and then proceeded 00:02:46.172 --> 00:02:47.912 to go work a 15 hour shift. 00:02:48.392 --> 00:02:52.052 And this poor puppy was of course, developed horrendous separation anxiety. 00:02:52.052 --> 00:02:55.712 And the landlord said, you've got 48 hours after about a week two. 00:02:56.077 --> 00:02:57.217 Essentially get rid of the dog. 00:02:57.487 --> 00:03:02.827 So I said, sure, I'll look after him for a few days until we can figure out a rescue. 00:03:03.247 --> 00:03:04.747 And then he never left. 00:03:06.307 --> 00:03:10.357 Um, and he's still here to this day, but Riggs had, um, so many difficulties. 00:03:10.357 --> 00:03:10.717 Bless him. 00:03:10.717 --> 00:03:14.497 He was really traumatized, super environmentally sensitive or 00:03:14.497 --> 00:03:18.307 reactive as it's often called to dogs, to people, to sounds. 00:03:18.347 --> 00:03:20.147 Terrible separation anxiety. 00:03:20.147 --> 00:03:21.467 He was self-harming. 00:03:21.617 --> 00:03:22.727 So much going on. 00:03:23.237 --> 00:03:29.507 And initially I obviously sought help from professionals, um, trainers, behaviorists, 00:03:29.507 --> 00:03:30.947 online, all of that kind of thing. 00:03:30.947 --> 00:03:35.057 And nothing was really working and I was getting seriously stressed 00:03:35.057 --> 00:03:37.307 out and anxious about his behavior. 00:03:37.637 --> 00:03:39.137 He was really struggling. 00:03:39.722 --> 00:03:41.372 And the, the connection just wasn't there. 00:03:41.372 --> 00:03:45.422 Like, I loved him, but we didn't, we weren't finding a way through it. 00:03:45.572 --> 00:03:48.962 And then it was literally like one day someone turned on a light bulb over my 00:03:48.962 --> 00:03:50.732 head and I thought, hang on a second. 00:03:51.362 --> 00:03:55.172 Why don't I take the trauma informed knowledge that I have from working with 00:03:55.172 --> 00:03:59.642 people and apply it to this situation, not just to my dog, but also to myself. 00:04:00.122 --> 00:04:03.872 And that's kind of where it all started and it went from there really. 00:04:04.232 --> 00:04:05.012 Um, so yeah. 00:04:05.427 --> 00:04:06.747 It's all thanks to Rigs. 00:04:06.927 --> 00:04:08.427 Who is the best dog in the world? 00:04:08.487 --> 00:04:09.237 100%. 00:04:09.237 --> 00:04:09.267 Oh, 00:04:09.777 --> 00:04:10.317 Anke: so cute. 00:04:10.557 --> 00:04:12.657 So what was that first insight like? 00:04:12.657 --> 00:04:15.567 What was the first thing you did differently or saw differently 00:04:15.567 --> 00:04:17.697 where you go, oh, Jesus. 00:04:17.697 --> 00:04:20.067 Yeah, we kind of have a have a way in here. 00:04:21.027 --> 00:04:25.587 Holly: Honestly, I just stopped trying to train him and that might 00:04:25.587 --> 00:04:29.907 sound really crazy coming from a behaviorist or a trainer, but. 00:04:30.467 --> 00:04:37.757 I was trying to quote, fix his emotional instability by asking him to lie down. 00:04:38.087 --> 00:04:42.767 Like, how would that ever work if you think about a human? 00:04:42.767 --> 00:04:45.977 And it, at the time, like I said, I was working in an inpatient ward. 00:04:45.977 --> 00:04:50.147 I was working, um, it was a forensic setting, so these gentlemen would've 00:04:50.147 --> 00:04:51.437 been in prison, but they weren't. 00:04:51.467 --> 00:04:52.217 Went very well. 00:04:52.217 --> 00:04:55.817 So they were with us in hospital instead, and I saw this play 00:04:55.817 --> 00:04:57.167 out at work all the time. 00:04:57.167 --> 00:05:02.057 So someone would be really angry or really sad, and instead of just 00:05:02.057 --> 00:05:05.627 sitting and listening to the emotion and talking to that person about what 00:05:05.627 --> 00:05:09.047 they're experiencing, people would find that uncomfortable and they'd wanna. 00:05:09.122 --> 00:05:11.822 Step in and be like, shall we go do an art session? 00:05:11.822 --> 00:05:16.232 Or would you like to go outside or trying to fix the problem with a task? 00:05:16.532 --> 00:05:19.082 And that's what I was being taught to do as my dog. 00:05:19.142 --> 00:05:21.332 Oh, well, you know, he just needs obedience. 00:05:21.332 --> 00:05:23.402 He needs to go to his bed, he needs to lie down. 00:05:23.672 --> 00:05:27.092 Or worse, some trainers really suggested some quite nasty methods, 00:05:27.092 --> 00:05:28.472 which we didn't do thankfully. 00:05:29.102 --> 00:05:31.292 But I was like, whoa, hang on a second. 00:05:32.432 --> 00:05:34.082 How would I feel if I was him? 00:05:34.082 --> 00:05:39.002 And I was saying in my dog language, mom, I'm really struggling and. 00:05:39.437 --> 00:05:42.107 It was responded to with, can you go lie on your bed, please? 00:05:42.347 --> 00:05:43.937 Like that does not compute. 00:05:44.482 --> 00:05:45.077 Anke: Yeah, yeah. 00:05:45.077 --> 00:05:46.652 Makes you really feel hurt. 00:05:46.652 --> 00:05:46.932 Right, 00:05:47.807 --> 00:05:48.347 Holly: exactly. 00:05:48.857 --> 00:05:51.857 So yes, that was kind of where it all came from. 00:05:51.857 --> 00:05:54.617 Now, I'm not saying there isn't a place for teaching your dog skills. 00:05:54.617 --> 00:05:56.057 I think that can be really fun. 00:05:56.057 --> 00:06:00.707 My dogs know all kinds of verbal cues and things like that, but it's not the 00:06:00.707 --> 00:06:02.927 answer when it comes to helping them with. 00:06:03.257 --> 00:06:06.617 Severe distress, which is where lots of dogs are, unfortunately. 00:06:06.617 --> 00:06:08.477 Whether their people know about it or not. 00:06:08.567 --> 00:06:11.297 So time and a place for all kinds of different things. 00:06:11.297 --> 00:06:14.807 But we have to look a bit further than training sometimes, I think. 00:06:15.227 --> 00:06:15.677 Anke: Yeah. 00:06:15.677 --> 00:06:15.947 Yeah. 00:06:15.947 --> 00:06:17.537 That makes, that makes total sense. 00:06:17.747 --> 00:06:20.957 So you just said something like, when whether people. 00:06:21.332 --> 00:06:22.862 Are aware of it or not? 00:06:22.892 --> 00:06:28.502 Like, are there things that you find people often overlook when they, you 00:06:28.502 --> 00:06:32.522 know, think the dog needs training, but you go, well actually, you know, they 00:06:32.522 --> 00:06:37.622 need some love and understanding first and some nervous system, some reason. 00:06:37.982 --> 00:06:41.372 What's the, are there sort of typical things that people overlook or mis 00:06:41.582 --> 00:06:43.562 misunderstand or, or judge wrongly? 00:06:44.687 --> 00:06:48.947 Holly: I don't think in most cases this is deliberate or malicious 00:06:48.947 --> 00:06:50.717 by any stretch of the imagination. 00:06:50.717 --> 00:06:54.137 I think sometimes it's just you don't know what you don't know. 00:06:54.437 --> 00:06:58.607 So one of the most common examples of this, I was at like a spring fair in the 00:06:58.607 --> 00:07:02.237 town that I live in a couple of weeks ago, and there were like market stalls 00:07:02.237 --> 00:07:04.067 and activities and it was super busy. 00:07:04.067 --> 00:07:06.077 There's probably about a couple of thousand people 00:07:06.077 --> 00:07:07.487 there in quite a small space. 00:07:07.907 --> 00:07:10.157 Loads of people have brought their dogs now. 00:07:10.157 --> 00:07:11.627 Some dogs were totally fine. 00:07:11.742 --> 00:07:13.332 Just having a nice day. 00:07:13.842 --> 00:07:17.442 Other dogs were showing all this body language. 00:07:17.442 --> 00:07:18.642 They were licking their lips. 00:07:18.642 --> 00:07:21.372 Their eyes were wide, they were turning their head. 00:07:21.672 --> 00:07:24.492 They were jumping whenever something would come near them. 00:07:24.852 --> 00:07:25.302 And the people. 00:07:26.402 --> 00:07:27.692 Weren't even looking. 00:07:28.172 --> 00:07:29.792 I was kind of watching from afar. 00:07:29.822 --> 00:07:32.222 This little Jack Russell was kind of like, oh my gosh. 00:07:32.552 --> 00:07:37.322 And his mom was chatting away to another human and either didn't notice or 00:07:37.322 --> 00:07:39.902 noticed and didn't do anything about it. 00:07:40.262 --> 00:07:44.732 And I just thought, gosh, like that dog is being so polite and being really quiet and 00:07:44.732 --> 00:07:46.982 holding all of their emotions inside, but. 00:07:47.502 --> 00:07:50.742 I wondered if they had been a bit more expressive and if they'd been barking 00:07:50.742 --> 00:07:52.302 and howling, what would've happened then? 00:07:52.302 --> 00:07:55.992 Would they have been told off or put in the car or whatever it might be? 00:07:56.262 --> 00:08:00.282 So it kind of happens like that on a very base level. 00:08:00.642 --> 00:08:03.702 And then I think the other thing that happens really commonly, and this is 00:08:03.702 --> 00:08:08.682 normal, we do this human to human as well, is if you are having a hard time 00:08:08.682 --> 00:08:10.962 yourself for whatever reason in your life. 00:08:11.597 --> 00:08:14.867 We do become a little bit more self-focused during those times 00:08:14.867 --> 00:08:18.527 because we just don't have the capacity to think of others as we 00:08:18.527 --> 00:08:20.447 normally would or as we would like to. 00:08:20.837 --> 00:08:23.837 And so it's as if all our empathy is used up. 00:08:24.497 --> 00:08:26.987 We all talk about compassion fatigue sometimes where we just 00:08:26.987 --> 00:08:28.247 think, I don't care anymore. 00:08:28.607 --> 00:08:32.417 And so often if you are caring for lots of others or you've got 00:08:32.477 --> 00:08:36.797 super busy life, you just may not even have the capacity to think. 00:08:37.077 --> 00:08:41.727 That your dog is struggling, and instead we interpret it as my dog is naughty or 00:08:41.727 --> 00:08:45.807 disobedient or loud, or just being a pain. 00:08:45.927 --> 00:08:49.587 All of these kinds of phrases, dogs aren't really doing that. 00:08:49.587 --> 00:08:51.147 They're just saying, I'm struggling. 00:08:51.147 --> 00:08:54.477 I'm overwhelmed, or I'm stressed, or I'm excited, or whatever it might be. 00:08:56.897 --> 00:08:58.367 Anke: Yeah, that makes, makes so much sense. 00:08:58.367 --> 00:08:59.537 I mean, I, yeah, I don't know. 00:08:59.537 --> 00:09:01.157 It just reminds me of like a neighbor. 00:09:01.272 --> 00:09:06.527 I had this really, I mean, he was a dog trainer, you know, well 00:09:06.557 --> 00:09:07.787 that's a whole different topic. 00:09:07.787 --> 00:09:10.337 But he basically flooded that dog like he. 00:09:10.802 --> 00:09:11.732 Rescued that dog. 00:09:11.732 --> 00:09:13.832 And he was like really nervous, really anxious. 00:09:14.132 --> 00:09:17.822 And he was getting really freaked out and he noticed, and his solution 00:09:17.822 --> 00:09:21.812 was to take him to a manifestation, you know, until he literally 00:09:21.812 --> 00:09:23.522 like, oh, look how calm he is now. 00:09:23.522 --> 00:09:26.072 And I'm like, and you don't see that this dog isn't calm. 00:09:26.072 --> 00:09:27.992 Like she was so shut down. 00:09:27.992 --> 00:09:30.062 She was just like, okay, life's over. 00:09:30.062 --> 00:09:30.602 Whatever. 00:09:30.932 --> 00:09:31.322 You know? 00:09:31.322 --> 00:09:37.952 I think, um, there's so many things that we can misunderstand and almost like. 00:09:39.857 --> 00:09:43.397 See the wrong things because we kind of look through the lens of, 00:09:43.637 --> 00:09:45.407 oh, the dog is misbehaving, right? 00:09:45.407 --> 00:09:49.727 If you were to look at a behavior through the lens of, my dog is struggling, I think 00:09:49.727 --> 00:09:51.197 you'd see something totally different. 00:09:51.977 --> 00:09:53.117 Holly: Yeah, for sure. 00:09:53.117 --> 00:09:57.857 And I talk a lot about trauma and how our past trauma as humans can 00:09:57.857 --> 00:10:01.817 massively impact the relationship we have with our dogs today. 00:10:02.267 --> 00:10:05.237 And one of those that really reminds me of that, what you were just 00:10:05.237 --> 00:10:06.977 saying there, because actually. 00:10:07.907 --> 00:10:11.117 If we are looking through it through the lens of what we've been taught 00:10:11.117 --> 00:10:14.717 as children, dogs should be seen and not heard, dogs should lie, quiet, 00:10:14.717 --> 00:10:17.987 lit your feet, all of these kinds of things that we were maybe told as 00:10:17.987 --> 00:10:20.717 kids, it gets transferred onto the dog. 00:10:20.717 --> 00:10:23.117 And when you really take a step back, you think, where 00:10:23.117 --> 00:10:24.857 did that belief even come from? 00:10:24.857 --> 00:10:26.177 Why do I think that? 00:10:26.717 --> 00:10:29.807 And as adults, we get the opportunity to challenge these beliefs, but 00:10:29.807 --> 00:10:31.577 you don't challenge it if you don't even know you have it. 00:10:32.717 --> 00:10:33.227 Yeah, that's true. 00:10:33.857 --> 00:10:36.017 But it's getting played out in your behavior. 00:10:36.107 --> 00:10:36.587 Um. 00:10:37.247 --> 00:10:39.407 I always think it's just quite ironic that people will say 00:10:39.407 --> 00:10:40.967 things like, my dog never listens. 00:10:41.327 --> 00:10:43.607 And I always wanna say, well, are you listening? 00:10:44.537 --> 00:10:46.397 Because it's a two-way street, right? 00:10:46.397 --> 00:10:50.057 It's not just they should listen to us, we have to earn that. 00:10:50.417 --> 00:10:52.187 And we do that by listening to them. 00:10:52.247 --> 00:10:53.087 And you know what? 00:10:53.087 --> 00:10:57.137 If my dog says no to something, even if I really need him to do 00:10:57.137 --> 00:11:00.257 it, I have to take a step back and say, okay, I'm gonna honor that. 00:11:00.692 --> 00:11:03.152 And if I something that needs to happen, I need to think of 00:11:03.152 --> 00:11:04.532 a different way of doing this. 00:11:04.532 --> 00:11:06.782 'cause you clearly don't wanna do it that way. 00:11:07.142 --> 00:11:09.542 Um, and it, it takes a bit of patience, but I think it's 00:11:09.542 --> 00:11:11.042 worth it for your relationship. 00:11:11.042 --> 00:11:11.702 Definitely. 00:11:12.452 --> 00:11:12.542 Anke: Mm-hmm. 00:11:12.782 --> 00:11:17.587 I think it's that trust that you would never, you never want to break it. 00:11:18.147 --> 00:11:18.267 I. 00:11:19.127 --> 00:11:22.307 I mean, I've, I've had the luxury of seeing, like the two boys I 00:11:22.307 --> 00:11:24.347 had, they came pretty traumatized. 00:11:24.347 --> 00:11:28.577 And you really notice that they're like, okay, people, men that can't trust, right? 00:11:28.817 --> 00:11:32.117 And so you, you can tell like they, the, and, and the two girls, 00:11:32.117 --> 00:11:35.537 they basically, the big dogs, nobody's ever messed with them. 00:11:35.627 --> 00:11:40.757 Like they also had the luxury of kind of catching me like a lot later. 00:11:40.757 --> 00:11:42.197 Like they weren't the first dog then. 00:11:42.497 --> 00:11:43.517 So I'm a lot more. 00:11:44.417 --> 00:11:47.417 You know, like, you know, I've seen this t-shirt where it says like, 00:11:47.717 --> 00:11:52.007 uh, you know, mess with me and I'll fight with, mess with my dogs, 00:11:52.007 --> 00:11:53.267 and they'll never find your body. 00:11:53.267 --> 00:11:55.847 Like, I'm kind of like that, you know? 00:11:55.847 --> 00:12:00.887 So it's like I'll not, like, I've been really conscious of doing whatever I 00:12:00.887 --> 00:12:03.347 can to keep them away from sort of. 00:12:03.837 --> 00:12:08.427 Some kind of traumatic event like little Leo who got bitten and never was 00:12:08.427 --> 00:12:10.077 sort of quite the same after that two. 00:12:10.107 --> 00:12:13.227 These two girls, they're still like, one is like 12 and a 00:12:13.227 --> 00:12:14.637 half and she goes, I'm cute. 00:12:14.637 --> 00:12:17.547 And you know it because nobody's ever challenged that. 00:12:17.937 --> 00:12:23.307 And you can see the difference in, in the way they experience life and life is with 00:12:23.307 --> 00:12:26.907 them when, and it's such a precious like. 00:12:27.257 --> 00:12:31.217 Call it innocence or call it like openness and trusting, you know, and 00:12:31.217 --> 00:12:35.177 I'm like, it's the worst thing to think to somebody with some stupid, 00:12:35.477 --> 00:12:37.847 you know, like to just destroy that. 00:12:37.997 --> 00:12:38.597 Holly: Mm-hmm. 00:12:39.017 --> 00:12:41.537 Anke: By kind of making them feel like, oh, I don't really care 00:12:41.987 --> 00:12:43.217 what's going on for, for you. 00:12:43.752 --> 00:12:45.407 Holly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:12:45.677 --> 00:12:46.427 Absolutely. 00:12:46.697 --> 00:12:49.637 I just always want to think, how would I feel? 00:12:50.757 --> 00:12:55.022 And people really often have a problem kind of aligning dogs with 00:12:55.022 --> 00:12:56.162 people say they're not people. 00:12:56.162 --> 00:12:56.912 No they're not. 00:12:57.332 --> 00:13:00.992 But they have a very huge emotional range just like we do. 00:13:01.502 --> 00:13:05.282 Um, and actually, you know what, sometimes humans, we hide 00:13:05.282 --> 00:13:06.572 some of our emotional range. 00:13:06.572 --> 00:13:08.522 We don't want to be seen to be upset. 00:13:08.542 --> 00:13:12.082 Or angry or prideful or whatever it might be. 00:13:12.322 --> 00:13:14.422 Whereas your dog, like, they don't hide anything. 00:13:14.422 --> 00:13:15.952 They're just like, here I am. 00:13:17.152 --> 00:13:19.522 Um, and actually the only times where they do hide things is 00:13:19.522 --> 00:13:20.722 when they don't feel safe. 00:13:20.842 --> 00:13:20.932 Mm-hmm. 00:13:21.202 --> 00:13:24.082 And that's why so many rescue dogs come home and they appear 00:13:24.082 --> 00:13:25.852 really meek and calm and quiet. 00:13:26.152 --> 00:13:28.552 And then you get four months in and they go, you know what? 00:13:28.582 --> 00:13:29.587 I can trust this human. 00:13:30.107 --> 00:13:31.967 Now you're gonna see how I really feel. 00:13:32.207 --> 00:13:34.697 And they go, hang on, why have I got this really reactive dog? 00:13:34.697 --> 00:13:36.947 It's like, well, it's kind of a compliment because they're 00:13:37.007 --> 00:13:39.077 saying, this is, this is me. 00:13:39.407 --> 00:13:42.347 And then you get to step in and, and support them with that rather 00:13:42.347 --> 00:13:45.707 than them fe feeling like they can't express who they really are. 00:13:46.127 --> 00:13:49.457 Anke: Mm mm It feels a little bit like this sort of step number, 00:13:49.907 --> 00:13:51.707 like let go of expectations. 00:13:51.707 --> 00:13:52.007 Yeah. 00:13:52.337 --> 00:13:54.437 It's almost like, look at the doc in front of you. 00:13:57.077 --> 00:14:00.947 Holly: And also for yourself, like what expectations are you putting on yourself 00:14:01.307 --> 00:14:07.157 to be this quote perfect dog parent, or to have a dog that is trained like, you 00:14:07.157 --> 00:14:11.657 know, Bailey down the road or whatever, like, is totally different circumstance. 00:14:11.987 --> 00:14:12.287 So 00:14:13.937 --> 00:14:17.447 Anke: that, that is true and I, I do, I do very much remember 00:14:17.447 --> 00:14:24.227 sort of those, you know, there was this mix of frustration and. 00:14:24.887 --> 00:14:25.397 Shame. 00:14:25.397 --> 00:14:25.847 Bit of guilt. 00:14:25.877 --> 00:14:29.897 Like, you know, when I like, you know, little who, yeah, 00:14:29.897 --> 00:14:31.187 he'd gotten bitten, right? 00:14:31.187 --> 00:14:35.207 And so now we were living in like, you know, you've been to, you know, like 00:14:35.207 --> 00:14:39.197 there's this little in the scene, this little cobblestone, like there's no space. 00:14:39.497 --> 00:14:40.577 To get out the way. 00:14:40.637 --> 00:14:41.027 Right. 00:14:41.177 --> 00:14:43.487 So on the other dogs, like they just come right at you. 00:14:43.547 --> 00:14:43.787 Right? 00:14:43.787 --> 00:14:46.457 And not, they don't always have the person with them. 00:14:46.457 --> 00:14:50.087 So it is like, there's nowhere we can go, you know? 00:14:50.267 --> 00:14:53.507 And he would then go, okay, in case of doubt, I'm just gonna 00:14:53.507 --> 00:14:55.337 throw myself at the other dog. 00:14:55.337 --> 00:14:55.547 Right? 00:14:55.937 --> 00:15:00.947 And so you kind of felt the looks of the old Spanish woman behind is like, 00:15:00.947 --> 00:15:04.307 look, she gotta like, look at how, you know, like the dog, you know? 00:15:04.307 --> 00:15:04.457 And. 00:15:05.792 --> 00:15:06.602 I do remember. 00:15:06.602 --> 00:15:09.752 It's not nice, you know, but I think it's almost like I can't 00:15:09.752 --> 00:15:12.692 let that take over, you know? 00:15:12.932 --> 00:15:13.262 Holly: Yeah. 00:15:13.322 --> 00:15:14.312 But it feels like it does. 00:15:14.312 --> 00:15:18.992 Sometimes it can feel absolutely mortifying when your dog is doing 00:15:18.992 --> 00:15:21.602 something in front of others, whether it's a member of the public 00:15:21.602 --> 00:15:23.252 or even a family member sometimes. 00:15:23.252 --> 00:15:25.682 'cause they've got their own opinions on what you are doing. 00:15:25.682 --> 00:15:26.102 Right. 00:15:26.522 --> 00:15:27.032 Um. 00:15:27.587 --> 00:15:29.837 But I think that is exaggerated. 00:15:29.987 --> 00:15:36.407 If in your past, either as a child or a younger adult, you had a history 00:15:36.437 --> 00:15:42.437 of being highly criticized by a caregiver or a teacher, or judged if 00:15:42.437 --> 00:15:46.607 you had bullying, for example, I was bullied horribly at school, and so I 00:15:46.607 --> 00:15:51.107 felt the intensity of other people's judgment at like 10, 11 years old. 00:15:51.377 --> 00:15:54.587 So then, you know, fast forward to my early twenties with my dog. 00:15:55.372 --> 00:15:58.102 I got a look from someone, it's just a look. 00:15:58.102 --> 00:16:02.572 It's not gonna kill me, but it felt like it was going to, it felt horrific. 00:16:02.812 --> 00:16:06.502 And so I couldn't be everything I needed to be for my dog because I 00:16:06.502 --> 00:16:10.612 was so wrapped up with how I was feeling and how mortifying it was. 00:16:10.612 --> 00:16:14.182 So, you know, part of it is unpicking that, and you know, 00:16:14.182 --> 00:16:17.602 you may not be able to change it, but you can at least identify it. 00:16:17.602 --> 00:16:18.862 And I always say to people like. 00:16:19.342 --> 00:16:21.742 Just say to yourself, I'm doing that thing again. 00:16:22.942 --> 00:16:24.802 My mind is doing that thing again. 00:16:24.832 --> 00:16:26.182 This is not reality. 00:16:26.332 --> 00:16:27.742 This is an exaggeration. 00:16:27.802 --> 00:16:30.382 I'm just gonna leave it there and then I'm gonna move on and go do 00:16:30.382 --> 00:16:31.762 something nice with my dog instead. 00:16:33.142 --> 00:16:33.262 Anke: Yeah. 00:16:33.742 --> 00:16:38.752 So when people come to you, do you actually, like how much 00:16:38.757 --> 00:16:40.012 do you work with the person? 00:16:40.012 --> 00:16:43.102 How much with the dog, or you know, do you look at the dog at all? 00:16:44.177 --> 00:16:46.397 Holly: Like, I would say a 50 50 split. 00:16:46.487 --> 00:16:50.987 So in my most popular program where I work with sensitive dogs, like it's a 00:16:50.987 --> 00:16:56.297 12 week program and a good 50% of it is talking about the human end of the lead. 00:16:56.297 --> 00:16:58.187 And that's because you are a partnership. 00:16:58.187 --> 00:17:01.277 Like you are not, it's not just about the dog. 00:17:01.337 --> 00:17:01.607 Um. 00:17:02.312 --> 00:17:04.502 They need to feel trust in you. 00:17:04.502 --> 00:17:06.212 You need to have collaboration. 00:17:06.482 --> 00:17:08.102 You need to feel confident. 00:17:08.372 --> 00:17:11.612 You know how many people learn a technique and then they get into 00:17:11.612 --> 00:17:14.882 the situation and they're like, what was that thing I was supposed to do? 00:17:14.882 --> 00:17:17.012 It's completely gone from my mind. 00:17:17.222 --> 00:17:21.452 Well, that's because you are having a fight or flight response yourself. 00:17:21.627 --> 00:17:25.412 So the first step is actually how can I regulate my own emotions and my own 00:17:25.412 --> 00:17:27.182 nervous system before I try and help? 00:17:27.187 --> 00:17:30.457 Someone else do that with theirs, whether it's a person, a dog, or an elephant. 00:17:30.517 --> 00:17:32.977 Like it's got to start from you. 00:17:32.977 --> 00:17:33.217 Right. 00:17:33.817 --> 00:17:36.397 Um, or you're not, not always gonna get super far. 00:17:37.627 --> 00:17:37.957 Anke: Yeah. 00:17:38.887 --> 00:17:39.487 No, that makes, that makes sense. 00:17:39.487 --> 00:17:44.167 I mean, have you, have you had sort of situations I, I would imagine you have, 00:17:44.317 --> 00:17:50.047 I mean, if there's a story you can tell, uh, where a human had an inside and it 00:17:50.047 --> 00:17:54.697 showed up in the behavior of the dog and change in behavior of the dog, I. 00:17:57.692 --> 00:18:00.422 Holly: Definitely, I'm trying to think of a good, good example. 00:18:00.422 --> 00:18:06.152 It's, it's kind of like, you know when you, did you ever put on those glasses 00:18:06.152 --> 00:18:09.632 when you were a kid that like you put them on and you get like a kaleidoscope 00:18:09.632 --> 00:18:12.362 inside and it would distort the outside. 00:18:12.662 --> 00:18:14.252 That's often what it's like, right? 00:18:14.252 --> 00:18:17.522 So it is almost like we are wearing these distortion glasses all the time 00:18:17.522 --> 00:18:20.372 and then if you just take them off and just look at something slightly 00:18:20.372 --> 00:18:22.802 differently, it makes all the difference. 00:18:22.802 --> 00:18:25.682 So one of my students, a couple of months ago, she said. 00:18:26.267 --> 00:18:27.407 I've just started. 00:18:27.407 --> 00:18:29.327 She said, to be honest, I haven't done a lot of the things that you've 00:18:29.327 --> 00:18:34.037 told me to do, but what I have done is that I just started, um, playing 00:18:34.037 --> 00:18:37.067 what we call the cheeky chicken game before, and I can explain that if you 00:18:37.067 --> 00:18:39.737 want me to before we leave the house. 00:18:39.797 --> 00:18:43.457 Um, my dog and I, her dogs reactive to dogs and people, and she was 00:18:43.457 --> 00:18:45.377 like, it gives me so much confidence. 00:18:45.407 --> 00:18:49.667 It makes me feel so much lighter and I'm looking at my dog differently. 00:18:49.847 --> 00:18:51.017 She's like, I'm not. 00:18:51.482 --> 00:18:52.142 Scanning her. 00:18:52.142 --> 00:18:56.132 Every part of her body going, is her ear moving one inch too far to the right? 00:18:56.132 --> 00:18:58.472 Is her tail slightly lower than it should be? 00:18:58.472 --> 00:19:00.872 I'm just looking at her as a whole, and I always think that's 00:19:00.872 --> 00:19:02.042 a really good thing to, to see. 00:19:02.042 --> 00:19:03.932 Don't hone in on one piece of the dog. 00:19:04.172 --> 00:19:07.142 Look at them as a whole and decide, oh, they're generally okay, or 00:19:07.142 --> 00:19:08.432 they're feeling a bit worried. 00:19:08.702 --> 00:19:10.862 She's like, so just something as simple as that. 00:19:11.012 --> 00:19:15.152 Making that one transition changed my outlook on how I looked at my dog, and 00:19:15.152 --> 00:19:17.102 then we then had a more positive walk. 00:19:17.312 --> 00:19:18.122 So it is. 00:19:18.242 --> 00:19:21.602 Interesting how just tiny little tweaks sometimes can Yeah. 00:19:21.602 --> 00:19:22.262 Make that difference. 00:19:22.262 --> 00:19:22.322 Yeah. 00:19:23.072 --> 00:19:26.912 Anke: So now, I mean, I can't let you go without the chicken leg game. 00:19:28.202 --> 00:19:32.582 Holly: Well, it's funny because normally I give my students video demos of all 00:19:32.582 --> 00:19:35.132 of the things I teach, but I always say to them, I'm not giving you a 00:19:35.132 --> 00:19:37.322 demo of this because it is ridiculous. 00:19:37.412 --> 00:19:37.472 So. 00:19:38.507 --> 00:19:43.037 When my dog strudel, we were in an apartment building for a while and um, 00:19:43.127 --> 00:19:44.777 um, she was six months old, bless her. 00:19:44.777 --> 00:19:49.877 She got attacked by another dog and she had 17 stitches down her neck really bad. 00:19:49.907 --> 00:19:55.877 And she was understandably very worried by dogs on flexi leads from there on and, um. 00:19:56.477 --> 00:20:00.827 What was, what was really difficult is we were on the seventh floor, so we would 00:20:00.827 --> 00:20:06.857 come down in the lift or go up in the lift and those floors would be ticking away and 00:20:06.857 --> 00:20:08.837 I'd be thinking that door's gonna open. 00:20:08.837 --> 00:20:11.297 And I have no idea what's on the other side. 00:20:11.297 --> 00:20:12.107 Is there one dog? 00:20:12.107 --> 00:20:13.127 Are there five dogs? 00:20:13.127 --> 00:20:14.297 Is there a dog off lead? 00:20:14.297 --> 00:20:15.227 Is there no one? 00:20:15.647 --> 00:20:18.707 And so my anxiety would start to go up, and this is recently, 00:20:18.707 --> 00:20:19.877 this is in the last two years. 00:20:20.472 --> 00:20:25.602 My anxiety would start to climb and she for sure would be like, what's up mom? 00:20:25.602 --> 00:20:27.792 Like, and she would start to get stressed. 00:20:27.792 --> 00:20:31.212 So we started playing what I refer to as Cheeky Chicken, which is literally 00:20:31.392 --> 00:20:35.742 where she goes between my feet and she's, she's a Liam Burger, so she's really big. 00:20:36.197 --> 00:20:39.767 I get her massive long giraffe neck and I just go, who's a cheeky chicken? 00:20:39.767 --> 00:20:40.937 Who's a cheeky chicken? 00:20:42.317 --> 00:20:44.537 We just sing this ridiculous song. 00:20:44.537 --> 00:20:49.547 Now you could put whatever words you like in there, but I do like alliteration. 00:20:49.547 --> 00:20:50.237 That's quite fun. 00:20:50.597 --> 00:20:55.757 Um, and by the end of the elevator journey, she's smiling and panting, 00:20:55.817 --> 00:20:59.057 I felt like a bit better 'cause we'd moved and got some of the energy 00:20:59.057 --> 00:21:03.017 shifted and then whatever happened when the doors open, we can handle it. 00:21:03.887 --> 00:21:05.117 Just so silly. 00:21:05.117 --> 00:21:08.957 Not remotely anything to do with training, but made a big difference for both of us. 00:21:08.957 --> 00:21:10.487 I think so, yeah. 00:21:10.817 --> 00:21:13.487 Anke: Oh, I that, that makes so much sense though, right? 00:21:13.487 --> 00:21:15.767 Because it kind of took your mind off. 00:21:15.767 --> 00:21:18.527 There's the physical movement, you know, and it just shifted. 00:21:18.527 --> 00:21:23.112 The whole, yeah, no, I definitely, I definitely can totally see 00:21:23.472 --> 00:21:24.822 how and why that would work. 00:21:24.822 --> 00:21:27.552 It'd be also hilarious if somebody comes into the lift. 00:21:28.647 --> 00:21:32.682 Holly: Well, I only, like, I only realized probably about a month after 00:21:32.862 --> 00:21:36.012 I started doing that, I was standing, waiting for the lift one day and I 00:21:36.012 --> 00:21:38.982 could hear people having a conversation from another floor and I was like, 00:21:39.042 --> 00:21:41.022 oh, so everyone can in fact hear. 00:21:45.962 --> 00:21:48.902 We just been got a performance for everybody. 00:21:50.102 --> 00:21:53.102 Anke: Like, you know now what your neighbors were talking behind you 00:21:53.102 --> 00:21:54.632 go, oh, there comes the tiki chicken. 00:21:54.812 --> 00:21:55.052 Exactly. 00:21:58.352 --> 00:21:59.107 Oh, that is funny. 00:22:00.122 --> 00:22:04.022 But I think it's a very cool trick because I can totally see it takes 00:22:04.052 --> 00:22:07.982 that, you know, like it's almost like when your dog kind of eyes at 00:22:07.982 --> 00:22:09.542 something and you know, and you just. 00:22:10.892 --> 00:22:14.417 You know, kind of manage to break that off, but it's like, 00:22:14.417 --> 00:22:15.947 we are the same, you know? 00:22:15.952 --> 00:22:15.992 Yeah. 00:22:15.992 --> 00:22:18.887 Sort of this kind of scanning and, and worry. 00:22:18.887 --> 00:22:23.507 And I think it's anything that, that kind of cuts through that is, um, you know, 00:22:23.507 --> 00:22:25.457 shifts the whole shifts, the whole mood. 00:22:25.457 --> 00:22:25.817 Yeah. 00:22:25.847 --> 00:22:27.617 That makes, makes perfect sense. 00:22:28.772 --> 00:22:33.197 So, so the, the 12 week program you're talking about for 00:22:33.197 --> 00:22:34.877 sensitive folks, it's that. 00:22:37.457 --> 00:22:41.597 Holly: Yeah, so I normally offer a free workshop that people can come to just to 00:22:41.597 --> 00:22:43.817 see if we are a good fit for each other. 00:22:44.117 --> 00:22:46.787 Um, because I say, as I say, a lot of people that I work with, 00:22:46.787 --> 00:22:49.307 I work with the human as well, and that's not for everyone. 00:22:49.667 --> 00:22:52.547 So I run a workshop called Are You As Triggered As Your Dog, 00:22:52.547 --> 00:22:54.887 which people are welcome to come and join if they'd like to. 00:22:54.947 --> 00:22:57.227 And then if they want to keep working with me, they can enroll 00:22:57.227 --> 00:22:58.817 on the 12 week program after that. 00:23:00.227 --> 00:23:00.407 Anke: Cool. 00:23:00.407 --> 00:23:03.467 But that's all online, so it doesn't matter where somebody is and yeah. 00:23:03.707 --> 00:23:04.247 Very cool. 00:23:06.467 --> 00:23:06.917 About. 00:23:07.532 --> 00:23:11.012 Find out about the program, about you, what all the other things you opt to. 00:23:12.212 --> 00:23:14.912 Holly: So if you want to register for that workshop, it's um, 00:23:14.912 --> 00:23:17.342 pause up dogs.com/triggered. 00:23:17.942 --> 00:23:21.572 Um, but the other places to find me are my podcast. 00:23:21.572 --> 00:23:24.902 So I've got a podcast for dog guardians called Letters From Your Dog. 00:23:25.292 --> 00:23:28.647 Um, and I have a Facebook group where I do lots of interviews 00:23:28.982 --> 00:23:30.482 and events and things like that. 00:23:30.482 --> 00:23:34.322 And that's called Kindness is Essential, not Optional Dog Training Support. 00:23:34.352 --> 00:23:35.127 So if you're on Facebook. 00:23:35.252 --> 00:23:36.482 You can come and catch me there. 00:23:36.902 --> 00:23:39.392 Um, and then the main website is pause upd dogs.com. 00:23:40.172 --> 00:23:40.592 Anke: Awesome. 00:23:40.922 --> 00:23:41.972 Well, thank you so much. 00:23:41.972 --> 00:23:46.052 I think I, I just love that approach of looking at both sides of the leash 00:23:46.052 --> 00:23:50.762 because I think you can't just like hold into and f around with the symptom and 00:23:51.392 --> 00:23:55.682 you know, I ignore the whole picture and I love that you're doing that. 00:23:55.682 --> 00:23:58.262 So thank you so much and thanks so much for coming. 00:24:00.182 --> 00:24:00.872 Yeah, thank you. 00:24:01.742 --> 00:24:01.922 Bye. 00:24:02.672 --> 00:24:03.092 Take care. 00:24:03.092 --> 00:24:03.512 Bye. 00:24:03.865 --> 00:24:05.125 Thanks so much for listening. 00:24:05.605 --> 00:24:09.715 If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe and leave a review 00:24:09.715 --> 00:24:11.875 so other dog lovers can find the show. 00:24:12.595 --> 00:24:16.975 If you haven't already, head over to Soul touched by dogs.com 00:24:17.305 --> 00:24:22.105 and sign up for weekly dog cuteness tips, recommendations, and personal 00:24:22.105 --> 00:24:24.625 stories to warm your dog loving heart. 00:24:25.195 --> 00:24:28.345 And if you know a poor human you think I should interview. 00:24:28.750 --> 00:24:29.860 I'd love an introduction. 00:24:30.340 --> 00:24:31.720 Email me at Anke. 00:24:32.410 --> 00:24:36.705 That's a NKE at Soul touched by dogs.com.