Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm Uncle Herrmann and I'm your host.
I talk to wholesome humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Anke: Hello and welcome Dr.
Holly.
I'm super excited to have you here.
Holly: Thank you so much for inviting me.
I really appreciate it.
Anke: Well, I'm very much looking forward to chatting to you
because it feels, you know, it's one of those funny ones because.
I've attended your summit, so I've seen a lot more you than you have of me.
So that's quite, and uh, so let's fill people in, let people know
where, where you're based and you know, what's your business.
Holly: So I'm based in London, in the uk.
Um, but I work with people all around the world.
I'm really lucky to be able to connect with people in loads of different places.
And I have a bit of a hybrid business.
Um, so I'm a clinical psychologist and I kind of did that first.
So I, um, I work with just a small number of people therapeutically, but
exclusively only people that have dogs.
So that's a little specialist thing that I do there.
Um, and then I also support dog guardians.
With their dogs, but with that human lens.
So it's not just about how do we work with the dog, but actually
how is the human feeling?
What's that connection there?
How can we help everyone to feel a little bit better in a
kind of trauma informed way?
And then just lastly, I work with dog professionals as well.
So supporting them to grow their businesses in a way that feels
ethical, not kind of nasty and salesy.
So I do a whole spectrum of different things.
Um, yeah, very busy.
Why kind of go.
Anke: So, so I, I think it's totally fascinating to kind of like, okay.
You know, like it makes sense that on that emotional level dogs and people
that it's sort of very intertwined.
You know, we kind of, it's like, yeah.
You know how dogs can smell when you, when you're scared.
Yeah.
So they can hook into all kinds of, of, so what was sort of
the trigger point for you two?
Like, so you did your psychology, you worked with people, like how
did the dogs come into all that?
Holly: It's the age old story of my own dog who was struggling with life.
Bless his heart, he was a real accidental puppy.
So it was a case of I was working in an inpatient ward
at the time, my colleague had.
For whatever reason, we won't judge him.
Brought a puppy home and, um, the dog had initially come from an abusive situation.
He quote unquote, saved him, brought him home, and then proceeded
to go work a 15 hour shift.
And this poor puppy was of course, developed horrendous separation anxiety.
And the landlord said, you've got 48 hours after about a week two.
Essentially get rid of the dog.
So I said, sure, I'll look after him for a few days until we can figure out a rescue.
And then he never left.
Um, and he's still here to this day, but Riggs had, um, so many difficulties.
Bless him.
He was really traumatized, super environmentally sensitive or
reactive as it's often called to dogs, to people, to sounds.
Terrible separation anxiety.
He was self-harming.
So much going on.
And initially I obviously sought help from professionals, um, trainers, behaviorists,
online, all of that kind of thing.
And nothing was really working and I was getting seriously stressed
out and anxious about his behavior.
He was really struggling.
And the, the connection just wasn't there.
Like, I loved him, but we didn't, we weren't finding a way through it.
And then it was literally like one day someone turned on a light bulb over my
head and I thought, hang on a second.
Why don't I take the trauma informed knowledge that I have from working with
people and apply it to this situation, not just to my dog, but also to myself.
And that's kind of where it all started and it went from there really.
Um, so yeah.
It's all thanks to Rigs.
Who is the best dog in the world?
100%.
Oh,
Anke: so cute.
So what was that first insight like?
What was the first thing you did differently or saw differently
where you go, oh, Jesus.
Yeah, we kind of have a have a way in here.
Holly: Honestly, I just stopped trying to train him and that might
sound really crazy coming from a behaviorist or a trainer, but.
I was trying to quote, fix his emotional instability by asking him to lie down.
Like, how would that ever work if you think about a human?
And it, at the time, like I said, I was working in an inpatient ward.
I was working, um, it was a forensic setting, so these gentlemen would've
been in prison, but they weren't.
Went very well.
So they were with us in hospital instead, and I saw this play
out at work all the time.
So someone would be really angry or really sad, and instead of just
sitting and listening to the emotion and talking to that person about what
they're experiencing, people would find that uncomfortable and they'd wanna.
Step in and be like, shall we go do an art session?
Or would you like to go outside or trying to fix the problem with a task?
And that's what I was being taught to do as my dog.
Oh, well, you know, he just needs obedience.
He needs to go to his bed, he needs to lie down.
Or worse, some trainers really suggested some quite nasty methods,
which we didn't do thankfully.
But I was like, whoa, hang on a second.
How would I feel if I was him?
And I was saying in my dog language, mom, I'm really struggling and.
It was responded to with, can you go lie on your bed, please?
Like that does not compute.
Anke: Yeah, yeah.
Makes you really feel hurt.
Right,
Holly: exactly.
So yes, that was kind of where it all came from.
Now, I'm not saying there isn't a place for teaching your dog skills.
I think that can be really fun.
My dogs know all kinds of verbal cues and things like that, but it's not the
answer when it comes to helping them with.
Severe distress, which is where lots of dogs are, unfortunately.
Whether their people know about it or not.
So time and a place for all kinds of different things.
But we have to look a bit further than training sometimes, I think.
Anke: Yeah.
Yeah.
That makes, that makes total sense.
So you just said something like, when whether people.
Are aware of it or not?
Like, are there things that you find people often overlook when they, you
know, think the dog needs training, but you go, well actually, you know, they
need some love and understanding first and some nervous system, some reason.
What's the, are there sort of typical things that people overlook or mis
misunderstand or, or judge wrongly?
Holly: I don't think in most cases this is deliberate or malicious
by any stretch of the imagination.
I think sometimes it's just you don't know what you don't know.
So one of the most common examples of this, I was at like a spring fair in the
town that I live in a couple of weeks ago, and there were like market stalls
and activities and it was super busy.
There's probably about a couple of thousand people
there in quite a small space.
Loads of people have brought their dogs now.
Some dogs were totally fine.
Just having a nice day.
Other dogs were showing all this body language.
They were licking their lips.
Their eyes were wide, they were turning their head.
They were jumping whenever something would come near them.
And the people.
Weren't even looking.
I was kind of watching from afar.
This little Jack Russell was kind of like, oh my gosh.
And his mom was chatting away to another human and either didn't notice or
noticed and didn't do anything about it.
And I just thought, gosh, like that dog is being so polite and being really quiet and
holding all of their emotions inside, but.
I wondered if they had been a bit more expressive and if they'd been barking
and howling, what would've happened then?
Would they have been told off or put in the car or whatever it might be?
So it kind of happens like that on a very base level.
And then I think the other thing that happens really commonly, and this is
normal, we do this human to human as well, is if you are having a hard time
yourself for whatever reason in your life.
We do become a little bit more self-focused during those times
because we just don't have the capacity to think of others as we
normally would or as we would like to.
And so it's as if all our empathy is used up.
We all talk about compassion fatigue sometimes where we just
think, I don't care anymore.
And so often if you are caring for lots of others or you've got
super busy life, you just may not even have the capacity to think.
That your dog is struggling, and instead we interpret it as my dog is naughty or
disobedient or loud, or just being a pain.
All of these kinds of phrases, dogs aren't really doing that.
They're just saying, I'm struggling.
I'm overwhelmed, or I'm stressed, or I'm excited, or whatever it might be.
Anke: Yeah, that makes, makes so much sense.
I mean, I, yeah, I don't know.
It just reminds me of like a neighbor.
I had this really, I mean, he was a dog trainer, you know, well
that's a whole different topic.
But he basically flooded that dog like he.
Rescued that dog.
And he was like really nervous, really anxious.
And he was getting really freaked out and he noticed, and his solution
was to take him to a manifestation, you know, until he literally
like, oh, look how calm he is now.
And I'm like, and you don't see that this dog isn't calm.
Like she was so shut down.
She was just like, okay, life's over.
Whatever.
You know?
I think, um, there's so many things that we can misunderstand and almost like.
See the wrong things because we kind of look through the lens of,
oh, the dog is misbehaving, right?
If you were to look at a behavior through the lens of, my dog is struggling, I think
you'd see something totally different.
Holly: Yeah, for sure.
And I talk a lot about trauma and how our past trauma as humans can
massively impact the relationship we have with our dogs today.
And one of those that really reminds me of that, what you were just
saying there, because actually.
If we are looking through it through the lens of what we've been taught
as children, dogs should be seen and not heard, dogs should lie, quiet,
lit your feet, all of these kinds of things that we were maybe told as
kids, it gets transferred onto the dog.
And when you really take a step back, you think, where
did that belief even come from?
Why do I think that?
And as adults, we get the opportunity to challenge these beliefs, but
you don't challenge it if you don't even know you have it.
Yeah, that's true.
But it's getting played out in your behavior.
Um.
I always think it's just quite ironic that people will say
things like, my dog never listens.
And I always wanna say, well, are you listening?
Because it's a two-way street, right?
It's not just they should listen to us, we have to earn that.
And we do that by listening to them.
And you know what?
If my dog says no to something, even if I really need him to do
it, I have to take a step back and say, okay, I'm gonna honor that.
And if I something that needs to happen, I need to think of
a different way of doing this.
'cause you clearly don't wanna do it that way.
Um, and it, it takes a bit of patience, but I think it's
worth it for your relationship.
Definitely.
Anke: Mm-hmm.
I think it's that trust that you would never, you never want to break it.
I.
I mean, I've, I've had the luxury of seeing, like the two boys I
had, they came pretty traumatized.
And you really notice that they're like, okay, people, men that can't trust, right?
And so you, you can tell like they, the, and, and the two girls,
they basically, the big dogs, nobody's ever messed with them.
Like they also had the luxury of kind of catching me like a lot later.
Like they weren't the first dog then.
So I'm a lot more.
You know, like, you know, I've seen this t-shirt where it says like,
uh, you know, mess with me and I'll fight with, mess with my dogs,
and they'll never find your body.
Like, I'm kind of like that, you know?
So it's like I'll not, like, I've been really conscious of doing whatever I
can to keep them away from sort of.
Some kind of traumatic event like little Leo who got bitten and never was
sort of quite the same after that two.
These two girls, they're still like, one is like 12 and a
half and she goes, I'm cute.
And you know it because nobody's ever challenged that.
And you can see the difference in, in the way they experience life and life is with
them when, and it's such a precious like.
Call it innocence or call it like openness and trusting, you know, and
I'm like, it's the worst thing to think to somebody with some stupid,
you know, like to just destroy that.
Holly: Mm-hmm.
Anke: By kind of making them feel like, oh, I don't really care
what's going on for, for you.
Holly: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
I just always want to think, how would I feel?
And people really often have a problem kind of aligning dogs with
people say they're not people.
No they're not.
But they have a very huge emotional range just like we do.
Um, and actually, you know what, sometimes humans, we hide
some of our emotional range.
We don't want to be seen to be upset.
Or angry or prideful or whatever it might be.
Whereas your dog, like, they don't hide anything.
They're just like, here I am.
Um, and actually the only times where they do hide things is
when they don't feel safe.
Mm-hmm.
And that's why so many rescue dogs come home and they appear
really meek and calm and quiet.
And then you get four months in and they go, you know what?
I can trust this human.
Now you're gonna see how I really feel.
And they go, hang on, why have I got this really reactive dog?
It's like, well, it's kind of a compliment because they're
saying, this is, this is me.
And then you get to step in and, and support them with that rather
than them fe feeling like they can't express who they really are.
Anke: Mm mm It feels a little bit like this sort of step number,
like let go of expectations.
Yeah.
It's almost like, look at the doc in front of you.
Holly: And also for yourself, like what expectations are you putting on yourself
to be this quote perfect dog parent, or to have a dog that is trained like, you
know, Bailey down the road or whatever, like, is totally different circumstance.
So
Anke: that, that is true and I, I do, I do very much remember
sort of those, you know, there was this mix of frustration and.
Shame.
Bit of guilt.
Like, you know, when I like, you know, little who, yeah,
he'd gotten bitten, right?
And so now we were living in like, you know, you've been to, you know, like
there's this little in the scene, this little cobblestone, like there's no space.
To get out the way.
Right.
So on the other dogs, like they just come right at you.
Right?
And not, they don't always have the person with them.
So it is like, there's nowhere we can go, you know?
And he would then go, okay, in case of doubt, I'm just gonna
throw myself at the other dog.
Right?
And so you kind of felt the looks of the old Spanish woman behind is like,
look, she gotta like, look at how, you know, like the dog, you know?
And.
I do remember.
It's not nice, you know, but I think it's almost like I can't
let that take over, you know?
Holly: Yeah.
But it feels like it does.
Sometimes it can feel absolutely mortifying when your dog is doing
something in front of others, whether it's a member of the public
or even a family member sometimes.
'cause they've got their own opinions on what you are doing.
Right.
Um.
But I think that is exaggerated.
If in your past, either as a child or a younger adult, you had a history
of being highly criticized by a caregiver or a teacher, or judged if
you had bullying, for example, I was bullied horribly at school, and so I
felt the intensity of other people's judgment at like 10, 11 years old.
So then, you know, fast forward to my early twenties with my dog.
I got a look from someone, it's just a look.
It's not gonna kill me, but it felt like it was going to, it felt horrific.
And so I couldn't be everything I needed to be for my dog because I
was so wrapped up with how I was feeling and how mortifying it was.
So, you know, part of it is unpicking that, and you know,
you may not be able to change it, but you can at least identify it.
And I always say to people like.
Just say to yourself, I'm doing that thing again.
My mind is doing that thing again.
This is not reality.
This is an exaggeration.
I'm just gonna leave it there and then I'm gonna move on and go do
something nice with my dog instead.
Anke: Yeah.
So when people come to you, do you actually, like how much
do you work with the person?
How much with the dog, or you know, do you look at the dog at all?
Holly: Like, I would say a 50 50 split.
So in my most popular program where I work with sensitive dogs, like it's a
12 week program and a good 50% of it is talking about the human end of the lead.
And that's because you are a partnership.
Like you are not, it's not just about the dog.
Um.
They need to feel trust in you.
You need to have collaboration.
You need to feel confident.
You know how many people learn a technique and then they get into
the situation and they're like, what was that thing I was supposed to do?
It's completely gone from my mind.
Well, that's because you are having a fight or flight response yourself.
So the first step is actually how can I regulate my own emotions and my own
nervous system before I try and help?
Someone else do that with theirs, whether it's a person, a dog, or an elephant.
Like it's got to start from you.
Right.
Um, or you're not, not always gonna get super far.
Anke: Yeah.
No, that makes, that makes sense.
I mean, have you, have you had sort of situations I, I would imagine you have,
I mean, if there's a story you can tell, uh, where a human had an inside and it
showed up in the behavior of the dog and change in behavior of the dog, I.
Holly: Definitely, I'm trying to think of a good, good example.
It's, it's kind of like, you know when you, did you ever put on those glasses
when you were a kid that like you put them on and you get like a kaleidoscope
inside and it would distort the outside.
That's often what it's like, right?
So it is almost like we are wearing these distortion glasses all the time
and then if you just take them off and just look at something slightly
differently, it makes all the difference.
So one of my students, a couple of months ago, she said.
I've just started.
She said, to be honest, I haven't done a lot of the things that you've
told me to do, but what I have done is that I just started, um, playing
what we call the cheeky chicken game before, and I can explain that if you
want me to before we leave the house.
Um, my dog and I, her dogs reactive to dogs and people, and she was
like, it gives me so much confidence.
It makes me feel so much lighter and I'm looking at my dog differently.
She's like, I'm not.
Scanning her.
Every part of her body going, is her ear moving one inch too far to the right?
Is her tail slightly lower than it should be?
I'm just looking at her as a whole, and I always think that's
a really good thing to, to see.
Don't hone in on one piece of the dog.
Look at them as a whole and decide, oh, they're generally okay, or
they're feeling a bit worried.
She's like, so just something as simple as that.
Making that one transition changed my outlook on how I looked at my dog, and
then we then had a more positive walk.
So it is.
Interesting how just tiny little tweaks sometimes can Yeah.
Make that difference.
Yeah.
Anke: So now, I mean, I can't let you go without the chicken leg game.
Holly: Well, it's funny because normally I give my students video demos of all
of the things I teach, but I always say to them, I'm not giving you a
demo of this because it is ridiculous.
So.
When my dog strudel, we were in an apartment building for a while and um,
um, she was six months old, bless her.
She got attacked by another dog and she had 17 stitches down her neck really bad.
And she was understandably very worried by dogs on flexi leads from there on and, um.
What was, what was really difficult is we were on the seventh floor, so we would
come down in the lift or go up in the lift and those floors would be ticking away and
I'd be thinking that door's gonna open.
And I have no idea what's on the other side.
Is there one dog?
Are there five dogs?
Is there a dog off lead?
Is there no one?
And so my anxiety would start to go up, and this is recently,
this is in the last two years.
My anxiety would start to climb and she for sure would be like, what's up mom?
Like, and she would start to get stressed.
So we started playing what I refer to as Cheeky Chicken, which is literally
where she goes between my feet and she's, she's a Liam Burger, so she's really big.
I get her massive long giraffe neck and I just go, who's a cheeky chicken?
Who's a cheeky chicken?
We just sing this ridiculous song.
Now you could put whatever words you like in there, but I do like alliteration.
That's quite fun.
Um, and by the end of the elevator journey, she's smiling and panting,
I felt like a bit better 'cause we'd moved and got some of the energy
shifted and then whatever happened when the doors open, we can handle it.
Just so silly.
Not remotely anything to do with training, but made a big difference for both of us.
I think so, yeah.
Anke: Oh, I that, that makes so much sense though, right?
Because it kind of took your mind off.
There's the physical movement, you know, and it just shifted.
The whole, yeah, no, I definitely, I definitely can totally see
how and why that would work.
It'd be also hilarious if somebody comes into the lift.
Holly: Well, I only, like, I only realized probably about a month after
I started doing that, I was standing, waiting for the lift one day and I
could hear people having a conversation from another floor and I was like,
oh, so everyone can in fact hear.
We just been got a performance for everybody.
Anke: Like, you know now what your neighbors were talking behind you
go, oh, there comes the tiki chicken.
Exactly.
Oh, that is funny.
But I think it's a very cool trick because I can totally see it takes
that, you know, like it's almost like when your dog kind of eyes at
something and you know, and you just.
You know, kind of manage to break that off, but it's like,
we are the same, you know?
Yeah.
Sort of this kind of scanning and, and worry.
And I think it's anything that, that kind of cuts through that is, um, you know,
shifts the whole shifts, the whole mood.
Yeah.
That makes, makes perfect sense.
So, so the, the 12 week program you're talking about for
sensitive folks, it's that.
Holly: Yeah, so I normally offer a free workshop that people can come to just to
see if we are a good fit for each other.
Um, because I say, as I say, a lot of people that I work with,
I work with the human as well, and that's not for everyone.
So I run a workshop called Are You As Triggered As Your Dog,
which people are welcome to come and join if they'd like to.
And then if they want to keep working with me, they can enroll
on the 12 week program after that.
Anke: Cool.
But that's all online, so it doesn't matter where somebody is and yeah.
Very cool.
About.
Find out about the program, about you, what all the other things you opt to.
Holly: So if you want to register for that workshop, it's um,
pause up dogs.com/triggered.
Um, but the other places to find me are my podcast.
So I've got a podcast for dog guardians called Letters From Your Dog.
Um, and I have a Facebook group where I do lots of interviews
and events and things like that.
And that's called Kindness is Essential, not Optional Dog Training Support.
So if you're on Facebook.
You can come and catch me there.
Um, and then the main website is pause upd dogs.com.
Anke: Awesome.
Well, thank you so much.
I think I, I just love that approach of looking at both sides of the leash
because I think you can't just like hold into and f around with the symptom and
you know, I ignore the whole picture and I love that you're doing that.
So thank you so much and thanks so much for coming.
Yeah, thank you.
Bye.
Take care.
Bye.
Thanks so much for listening.
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That's a NKE at Soul touched by dogs.com.