Speaker 1: Hello, dear friends, this is John Butler
Speaker 1: and you're about to listen to a podcast
Speaker 1: called Running the River.
Speaker 1: This is a new podcast that I have put
Speaker 1: together with my dear friend Dingo Spender.
Speaker 1: He, you may recall, helped me with the last
Speaker 1: podcast I made for my album Home.
Speaker 1: Here again we deconstruct and get under the
Speaker 1: skin and get our hands dirty in the
Speaker 1: substrate soil of what I was envisioning
Speaker 1: for this latest ambient album.
Speaker 1: This is an album I made for wellness
Speaker 1: practitioners and practicers alike to
Speaker 1: defrag and decompress in this very busy,
Speaker 1: fast and quick world, and we hope you enjoy
Speaker 1: as we take you up down and across the river.
Speaker 1: This is Running the River.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, I would love please tell us about
Speaker 2: the chronology, like what, what got you
Speaker 2: here?
Speaker 2: What led to this?
Speaker 2: What led us?
Speaker 1: here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, where do I start?
Speaker 1: Where do I start?
Speaker 1: Because it's all kind of it's all some kind
Speaker 1: of venn diagram that's all over lane and
Speaker 1: intersectional.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, having the idea for a long time,
Speaker 1: you know, sitting out there on the back
Speaker 1: burner at some point, I'll do it, I'll get
Speaker 1: around to it one day.
Speaker 1: I will, I would, I should, I could, and you
Speaker 1: know, got back four or five years.
Speaker 1: It was interesting, it was the beginning of
Speaker 1: an interesting time.
Speaker 1: Basically, I've been with some band members
Speaker 1: over 11 years, 12 years, more than I've
Speaker 1: ever been with any other band member Byron
Speaker 1: Luters, fantastic bassist, great individual,
Speaker 1: and Grant Goffey and drums.
Speaker 1: Then I added a couple of new players for
Speaker 1: home as well, and that went well.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, after 10 or 14 years
Speaker 1: in a row, people want to do other things.
Speaker 1: They have lives and they have their own
Speaker 1: journey and their own path and life leads
Speaker 1: them in different directions and getting to
Speaker 1: those points and including myself, you know,
Speaker 1: and sometimes get into those points are not
Speaker 1: always a straight line hmm, and they're not
Speaker 1: always clean either.
Speaker 1: And it's simple and for me, I have a
Speaker 1: propensity to over complicate in my mind
Speaker 1: and also situations and read and put
Speaker 1: narratives over the top of things and see
Speaker 1: the whole world.
Speaker 1: That way I'm sure, I'm, not the only one.
Speaker 1: So, you know, without going into any of the
Speaker 1: details, because I think all participants
Speaker 1: and all players are all fantastic people,
Speaker 1: including myself, and we all do our best
Speaker 1: and did our best, and we all also added our
Speaker 1: ingredients to the mojo and the gumbo that
Speaker 1: that, uh, turned into.
Speaker 1: You know, those last months of the last
Speaker 1: incarnation of the trio, um, and I found
Speaker 1: that difficult, like I always do.
Speaker 1: I find those things kind of, you know,
Speaker 1: testing, traumatic, challenging.
Speaker 1: I, you know they stay with me a long time
Speaker 1: if you ask my partners, like it's, it's,
Speaker 1: it's a thing, and um, I put together
Speaker 1: another band in record time to finish my
Speaker 1: European and American commitments that I
Speaker 1: did want to finish with, like, some great
Speaker 1: players like Alana Stone on keys and vocals,
Speaker 1: oj Newcomb on keys and vocals, oj newcom on
Speaker 1: bass and keys, terry pie richmond on drums.
Speaker 1: I put this band together in two weeks and
Speaker 1: by the end of two months we were headlining
Speaker 1: red rocks again for the fifth time and you
Speaker 1: know it was like whoa, it was a lot that
Speaker 1: happened there and like afterwards I was
Speaker 1: just like, and after this, I'm gonna stop
Speaker 1: not make any commitments to any new members,
Speaker 1: new bands, I'm going to go solo for a few
Speaker 1: years and just whoa, whoa.
Speaker 1: Relationships seemed complex, difficult,
Speaker 1: scary.
Speaker 1: I was a bit tapped out.
Speaker 1: Being a band leader, an employer, a mate
Speaker 1: living on a submarine, been touring for 25
Speaker 1: years, I was dealing with anxiety
Speaker 1: throughout the whole thing.
Speaker 1: That would come and go pretty intensely and
Speaker 1: I was just a bit cooked.
Speaker 1: I was just cooked and so I said yes, I will
Speaker 1: go off the road and at the in around you
Speaker 1: know, the last few albums I've been working
Speaker 1: with garage band and trying to teach myself
Speaker 1: as an engineer, really gently.
Speaker 1: And then I was like I'm going to get logic.
Speaker 1: So I got logic and I was like, well, the
Speaker 1: first thing I should do is make this
Speaker 1: ambient album.
Speaker 1: It's really simple, you know, just like
Speaker 1: simple stuff, don't try really heavy.
Speaker 1: So I started making stuff and it was cool
Speaker 1: and exciting and I was like, oh, that's
Speaker 1: sick, and how about I just put a little
Speaker 1: beat to that little guitar beat to that?
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, that's cool, like why
Speaker 1: don't I just back that little guitar beat
Speaker 1: up with a little midi kick?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh, why don't you just put a
Speaker 1: little synthesizer?
Speaker 1: You know, you know, long story short, you
Speaker 1: know, all of a sudden, I was in another
Speaker 1: studio that I'd built in our spare place on
Speaker 1: the land.
Speaker 1: It's like a little small upward studio
Speaker 1: space.
Speaker 1: That was already there and I was in
Speaker 1: full-fledged I'm making an album by myself,
Speaker 1: full production.
Speaker 1: Don't know what the fuck I'm doing Having a
Speaker 1: ball sitting up to four o'clock every
Speaker 1: morning making stuff and excited by the
Speaker 1: process Tracks everywhere, not knowing how
Speaker 1: to crossfade.
Speaker 1: Four o'clock every morning making stuff and
Speaker 1: excited by the process tracks everywhere,
Speaker 1: not knowing how to crossfade, just like
Speaker 1: just going for it and having fun and trying
Speaker 1: to, like you know, achieve some kevin
Speaker 1: parker thing.
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, I'll make it out by myself,
Speaker 1: why not?
Speaker 1: Never, never, never engineered.
Speaker 1: Don't know really what the hell I'm doing.
Speaker 1: Crossfading is something and you know, um,
Speaker 1: why not?
Speaker 1: I've only worked with, you know,
Speaker 1: professional engineers have dedicated their
Speaker 1: life to the craft of engineering, my whole
Speaker 1: career.
Speaker 1: Why can't I do that?
Speaker 1: And um, you know, um, met myself in it,
Speaker 1: yeah, and but in amongst that, uh, my
Speaker 1: partner's father and my father had both
Speaker 1: been dealing with long-term chronic illness
Speaker 1: that had come to a head and just shortly
Speaker 1: before I got logic and started doing that,
Speaker 1: you know, and something else, kind of
Speaker 1: majorly pivotal and massive precedent in
Speaker 1: our lives is COVID dropped.
Speaker 1: So COVID dropped, I'm at home, we're all at
Speaker 1: home, we're all not working and you know
Speaker 1: I'm recording a bit at home.
Speaker 1: I'll make this ambient album.
Speaker 1: And our dads fall very ill, like a long
Speaker 1: time coming and now we're doing palliative
Speaker 1: care In a short time, within a week, dan
Speaker 1: was gone in lockdown Victoria in the family
Speaker 1: home with all of her five siblings and was
Speaker 1: all oh, not five siblings, sorry, all of
Speaker 1: her four siblings and literally they'd gone
Speaker 1: back to the family unit looking after the
Speaker 1: patriarch of the family.
Speaker 1: One week later, my dad is finally told by a
Speaker 1: nurse you have to have care now and my dad
Speaker 1: had been kind of couch surfing and, like
Speaker 1: they call it, like furniture surfing where
Speaker 1: you can't walk properly and you're walking
Speaker 1: to the next object to lean yourself on.
Speaker 1: And I'd been saying, dad, I think it's time
Speaker 1: to come home.
Speaker 1: Let me look after you get some care.
Speaker 1: And he finally succumbed to that.
Speaker 1: And so in amongst that Dan's gone now in
Speaker 1: lockdown in a pretty intensive situation
Speaker 1: doing palliative care at home, and within a
Speaker 1: week of that I've emptied our whole room.
Speaker 1: I've put it wherever it would fit somewhere
Speaker 1: else.
Speaker 1: I emptied my whole dad's living room into a
Speaker 1: trailer and took it three hours down south
Speaker 1: to Margaret River wherever it would fit
Speaker 1: somewhere else.
Speaker 1: I emptied my whole dad's living room into a
Speaker 1: trailer and took it three hours down south
Speaker 1: to Margaret River and made his living room
Speaker 1: into my bedroom and then gave him care for
Speaker 1: the next month before he passed away.
Speaker 1: Danielle and my father, danielle's dad,
Speaker 1: nicholas, and my father passed within 40
Speaker 1: hours of each other, wild, both in lockdown.
Speaker 1: So that happened and then they passed.
Speaker 1: You know and you know the strain of that,
Speaker 1: the surrealness of that raising two teenage
Speaker 1: kids, 23 years of marriage and being on the
Speaker 1: road Band, kind of breaking up in a way
Speaker 1: that was very confusing and complex.
Speaker 1: You know and you know I'm kind of
Speaker 1: post-funeral.
Speaker 1: We're all a little bit shell-shocked and
Speaker 1: I'm sitting with this music trying to make
Speaker 1: it and it's getting more and more complex
Speaker 1: and the computer's struggling more to
Speaker 1: actually even do the right thing.
Speaker 1: I don't know where sounds are coming from
Speaker 1: anymore and I am just starting to swim in
Speaker 1: my attention deficit and whatever trauma or
Speaker 1: PTSD that lurks around and the anxiety were
Speaker 1: just starting to ping and I couldn't see
Speaker 1: the forest, the trees, and through that
Speaker 1: kind of year and a half, two year I was
Speaker 1: kind of um, oh well, I was very soberly
Speaker 1: humbled and um and kind of brought back to
Speaker 1: fair basics and um, and kind of like not
Speaker 1: knowing if I had it in me anymore to do
Speaker 1: what I do, to do what I wanted to do, even
Speaker 1: though the songs were still coming, even
Speaker 1: though they're like, hey, john, we're here,
Speaker 1: can you bring us to life so people can hear
Speaker 1: them, kind of thing.
Speaker 1: I talked to the songs, yeah, but I was like
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm not thinking about like I
Speaker 1: got these songs, like they're not solo
Speaker 1: songs, it's like they're band songs, I hear
Speaker 1: them, not solo songs, it's like they're
Speaker 1: band songs, I hear them, I hear how they
Speaker 1: want to be and I'm like I don't know.
Speaker 1: I've been so stripped bare, cleaned off,
Speaker 1: lost confidence.
Speaker 1: I've been really humbled by all of it.
Speaker 1: You know, like 20 years of interesting and
Speaker 1: amazing and not amazing behavior in a
Speaker 1: marriage raising two amazing kids, going
Speaker 1: through big times in life, two fathers
Speaker 1: dying at the same time, adrenal fatigue,
Speaker 1: but all that kind of stuff just and then
Speaker 1: just like feeling lost in.
Speaker 1: The only thing that I thought.
Speaker 1: I kind of like that was giving me some kind
Speaker 1: of you know solace.
Speaker 1: I was just like okay, I don't know if I got
Speaker 1: what it takes to do much of it, of any of
Speaker 1: it, you know, solace.
Speaker 1: I was just like, okay, I don't, I don't
Speaker 1: know if I got what it takes to do much of
Speaker 1: it, of any of it, you know.
Speaker 1: And that was extremely humbling in a real
Speaker 1: like zeroing off calibration.
Speaker 1: That, of course, was necessary, but I was
Speaker 1: like how could I possibly ever lead a band
Speaker 1: again, how could I?
Speaker 1: Do I even have it anymore?
Speaker 1: I'm not as naive and cocksure and abrupt
Speaker 1: and kind of insensitive as I used to be.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not insensitive, I'm highly
Speaker 1: sensitive in the sense that you need a
Speaker 1: certain kind of naivety.
Speaker 1: The more you know about human relations,
Speaker 1: the more nuanced you have to get.
Speaker 1: And I didn't think I had the skills to deal
Speaker 1: with the complexity with how sensitive I'm
Speaker 1: and how many stations seem to be on and
Speaker 1: blaring at once with my attention span.
Speaker 1: So I was like, how could I get, possibly
Speaker 1: get back?
Speaker 1: And I said, well, let's just work backwards
Speaker 1: a little bit, because these songs are not
Speaker 1: leaving you.
Speaker 1: Let's work backwards.
Speaker 1: How simply can we make the path back?
Speaker 1: yeah and the whole idea of smart.
Speaker 1: You know that smart acronym of you know I
Speaker 1: don't know what it's like set a goal,
Speaker 1: measurable, achievable rt.
Speaker 1: I don't know where they are.
Speaker 1: It was like what's the simplest thing I can
Speaker 1: do?
Speaker 1: I'm not listening to the things I've been
Speaker 1: working on for last two years.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't listen to it.
Speaker 1: It's making me anxious, fucking whoa.
Speaker 1: Um, I'll start with the ambient album.
Speaker 1: Beautiful, I can maybe just do that.
Speaker 1: And then I was like in amongst that.
Speaker 1: Now we're post covid and all that.
Speaker 1: I'd worked with james ireland uh, for just
Speaker 1: two days.
Speaker 1: It was like a meeting just to see if we
Speaker 1: might do something together.
Speaker 1: Uh, for songs and, um, it was a really easy
Speaker 1: of days not being on the tools and being
Speaker 1: just on the instruments.
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, that's right, engineers
Speaker 1: are sick and he was also a producer.
Speaker 1: And so I was like in amongst this gumbo of
Speaker 1: thought, something started to crystallize
Speaker 1: and it was like, okay, there's this band
Speaker 1: that I want to have one day.
Speaker 1: I'm compelled to have it.
Speaker 1: I want to have it, I need to have it, but I
Speaker 1: can't go there now.
Speaker 1: Let's start at the beginning.
Speaker 1: Make this ambient.
Speaker 1: You need to heal.
Speaker 1: You actually need to heal.
Speaker 1: You're fucking fried, bro.
Speaker 1: Now's the time to make this music, not for
Speaker 1: necessarily I mean, yes, of course to share
Speaker 1: but first for yourself, as a tool of coming
Speaker 1: back to how simple the process can be of
Speaker 1: recording, how simple music can be without
Speaker 1: all the complexities and overlays.
Speaker 1: And once that happened, the next thing
Speaker 1: happened is well, I want to make this
Speaker 1: instrumental album.
Speaker 1: The instrumental album is something that's
Speaker 1: very much connected to the intros of the
Speaker 1: songs and to some of the journeys of the
Speaker 1: music of the trio.
Speaker 1: And I was like so it was like Heal Begin
Speaker 1: Again.
Speaker 1: First album was an instrumental album that
Speaker 1: I used to play on the street.
Speaker 1: I was like Heal, begin Again, yeah, start
Speaker 1: again.
Speaker 1: So instrumental album.
Speaker 1: Then I'll do this solo kind of guitar beat
Speaker 1: album that I wanted to do, and then I'll be
Speaker 1: through all that, slowly, baby steps, I'll
Speaker 1: be able to have a band again and what I saw
Speaker 1: was four seasons and the way my mind works.
Speaker 1: It needs story and narrative.
Speaker 1: You can tell me, dada, until the cows come
Speaker 1: home and I'll be like, yeah, I understand
Speaker 1: you and I, yes, I understand that.
Speaker 1: But to feel something, to really integrate
Speaker 1: it as a concept and an idea and I need it
Speaker 1: has to be conceptual.
Speaker 1: I have to have a story.
Speaker 1: You want to teach me something about math
Speaker 1: or anything, or scales?
Speaker 1: Give me a story, give me a shape, give me a
Speaker 1: color, give me a feeling, give me a story,
Speaker 1: give me a history and I'll build something
Speaker 1: around it.
Speaker 1: That's what I need.
Speaker 1: That's how my version of ADHD works and
Speaker 1: that's how I.
Speaker 1: And the minute I had those four seasons, I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, clear.
Speaker 1: And I also had this moment of clarity.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I had a good amount of
Speaker 1: serotonin or dopamine in my body at the
Speaker 1: time.
Speaker 1: Having worked with James, I was like I'm
Speaker 1: going to call two people right now and see
Speaker 1: if they're free to do the ambient album and
Speaker 1: the instrumental album.
Speaker 1: And on the same day, in the same hour, I
Speaker 1: texted Dave Mann, a fantastic musician,
Speaker 1: engineer, producer, songwriter, performer,
Speaker 1: who lives in Market River.
Speaker 1: He's like anybody who knows Dave Mann knows
Speaker 1: he's actually the man.
Speaker 1: He can literally do anything.
Speaker 2: He is the renaissance man.
Speaker 1: And he does it well and he's a humble
Speaker 1: gentleman.
Speaker 2: Forging steel tools.
Speaker 1: Making house trucks.
Speaker 2: Making.
Speaker 1: Sailing across, sailing, yeah, just you
Speaker 1: name it.
Speaker 1: Playing guitar like a.
Speaker 2: Singing like a Singing writing songs,
Speaker 2: engineering albums, Raising kids Just the
Speaker 2: whole lot.
Speaker 2: He's just the full package.
Speaker 1: He's just like stop it okay.
Speaker 2: I know Chill.
Speaker 1: Really like-.
Speaker 2: And he's a mountain of a man.
Speaker 2: He's six foot five.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's a lot.
Speaker 1: I mean it's surprising anybody likes him.
Speaker 2: Dave, if you're listening to this, just
Speaker 2: ignore that bit.
Speaker 2: If you're listening to this, just ignore
Speaker 2: that bit.
Speaker 1: So I sent him a thing going I'm free on
Speaker 1: these dates.
Speaker 1: I just had that clarity.
Speaker 1: You know that you have those clarity
Speaker 1: Especially for me.
Speaker 1: It's like I get these moments of clarity.
Speaker 1: I can see the whole matrix for a second.
Speaker 1: It's opened up and I'm like I'm going to
Speaker 1: pounce.
Speaker 1: And it opened up my diary.
Speaker 1: I'm like I'm free on these dates, I'm just
Speaker 1: going to try them.
Speaker 1: And I'm going to call somebody else, called
Speaker 1: a good friend of mine, katie Tunstall,
Speaker 1: who's a fantastic musician, engineer,
Speaker 1: songwriter, just badass woman, boss woman,
Speaker 1: and I knew I had this gig in Miami on
Speaker 1: Michael Frenti's Soul Shine Cruise solo and
Speaker 1: I was like I could maybe go to New Mexico
Speaker 1: where she lives and record this thing.
Speaker 1: So I said to them both at the same time you
Speaker 1: guys free, are you guys free?
Speaker 1: And they both wrote me back within an hour,
Speaker 1: going yeah and I was like okay, it's on,
Speaker 1: and you know that's kind of asking you,
Speaker 1: that was, that was the, that was the
Speaker 1: journey to get to that moment I had to go
Speaker 1: through so much breakdown and and literally
Speaker 1: you know, and and literally be 20 songs
Speaker 1: deep into multi, multi-tracked songs and
Speaker 1: walk away from it all, yeah and and then go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, I need to actually work with
Speaker 1: somebody else yeah yeah, damn it.
Speaker 1: Oh, I really wanted to do the kevin parker
Speaker 1: thing because I just wanted to stay the
Speaker 1: fuck away from people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were just too hard like complex,
Speaker 1: and I knew I was as well.
Speaker 1: It was this and it's like no, no, now we're
Speaker 1: starting to heal.
Speaker 2: Work with people, yeah, work with safe,
Speaker 2: kind, powerful, humble badasses and and and
Speaker 2: dave man was yeah first port of call can I
Speaker 2: just say as well, you at some point in this
Speaker 2: 20 track huge um, I actually came in for a
Speaker 2: couple of, was it maybe two days three?
Speaker 1: days, yeah, you did.
Speaker 2: We did some stuff in the world.
Speaker 2: You were like, you were like the, the
Speaker 2: wrestler on the ropes going reaching out to
Speaker 2: tag someone into the into the ring, you
Speaker 2: know, and I was just like on the side going
Speaker 2: come, man, just tag me and tag me.
Speaker 2: So I flew over, yeah, yeah and um.
Speaker 2: You know, from my perspective, like the
Speaker 2: work you've done there, like it's epic,
Speaker 2: it's big, it's huge and I can't wait till
Speaker 2: we get there to this cycle.
Speaker 2: This season has passed beautiful journey of
Speaker 2: like rebuilding yourself.
Speaker 2: To get to that level of complexity is is
Speaker 2: absolutely understandable because then you
Speaker 2: can serve it without it feeling like it's a
Speaker 2: burden to you.
Speaker 2: It's just a.
Speaker 1: You're gonna have the tools to deliver it
Speaker 1: to and to do it the service that you know
Speaker 1: yeah, the things that need to be
Speaker 1: prioritized first and I was jumping the gun,
Speaker 1: yeah I was jumping the gun and the music
Speaker 1: was like okay, it's big music you can, but
Speaker 1: let's see how you go yeah and it's like the
Speaker 1: music always knows.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was just like, yeah, you have a
Speaker 1: shot.
Speaker 1: And I learned amazing things along the way
Speaker 1: and I think, failure is an amazing, amazing
Speaker 1: gift and tool and to meet yourself and also,
Speaker 1: you know, I like to think I'm pretty
Speaker 1: empathetic and like pretty, you know,
Speaker 1: self-conscious and aware, but it all it did
Speaker 1: definitely gave me, you know, just even
Speaker 1: another level, um, on just the appreciation
Speaker 1: of the skill of engineers.
Speaker 1: You know, um, you know and I knew that, but
Speaker 1: once again I got to feel that yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a very different lesson.
Speaker 2: Feel it in to really feel it.
Speaker 2: It's a different lesson, isn't it?
Speaker 1: Yeah and just going okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's some things I'm better at and
Speaker 1: some things I'm not good at.
Speaker 1: And now we're talking about energy.
Speaker 1: Where am I going to be the most efficient?
Speaker 1: Where am I going to be the most potent?
Speaker 1: Yes, learn that thing, but is it?
Speaker 2: it's not gonna best serve you for now.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's maybe that self-produced,
Speaker 1: self-recorded things down the track.
Speaker 1: This is a journey and you're still reeling,
Speaker 1: bro.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're still like trying to work out
Speaker 1: real simple, primordial shit, yeah.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, go back yeah you know, go back to,
Speaker 1: to the drawing board of your life
Speaker 1: schematics, yeah, and it's a circle, coming
Speaker 1: all the way around with a whole new
Speaker 1: understanding.
Speaker 2: It's not like you're starting from scratch.
Speaker 2: You're coming, but it's like the context is
Speaker 2: that you are.
Speaker 2: It's a renewal, you know, like the
Speaker 2: beginning is the end.
Speaker 2: The end is the beginning.
Speaker 2: It's that beautiful circle coming around,
Speaker 2: but this time you've got all this new
Speaker 2: understanding, this new capacity to begin
Speaker 2: again and be humble again yeah, and that'd
Speaker 2: be a lot of death.
Speaker 2: I think that'd be a lot of death, the death
Speaker 2: of a band?
Speaker 1: uh, death of confidence?
Speaker 1: Death of family members?
Speaker 1: Yeah, uh.
Speaker 1: Death of art recordings?
Speaker 1: Uh, a death within the marriage, I think,
Speaker 1: even, to be honest to say, a death of old
Speaker 1: ways in order to forge new ways.
Speaker 1: It was a real this, whatever you wanna call
Speaker 1: it, lifetime, the universe, it was like it
Speaker 1: was kind of nudging me in the directions.
Speaker 1: And then and I am a, at times, obstinate,
Speaker 1: stubborn and like stupidly, not
Speaker 1: stupendously, but stupidly loyal to an idea,
Speaker 1: a cause, to people, to myself, to a concept,
Speaker 1: and I just stuck with something that I knew
Speaker 1: had to change and that was wanting to
Speaker 1: change, and all the different organelles of
Speaker 1: it was wanting to change, not just me and
Speaker 1: finally it just said poop and just kind of
Speaker 1: pushed me out of the nest and yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: rough landing and you know, I just want to
Speaker 1: also, just, you know, give it that sense of
Speaker 1: like, the experience you've just explained
Speaker 1: and like what you've been through is such,
Speaker 1: a um, a broader experience for so many
Speaker 1: people about the kind of the gift of what
Speaker 1: covid kind of gave us.
Speaker 2: As well as it was, it was a death for so
Speaker 2: many people of old ways and having to deal
Speaker 2: with our own shadows and take
Speaker 2: responsibility for stuff, and we all did it
Speaker 2: in different ways.
Speaker 2: You know, um, people changed jobs, people
Speaker 2: left partners, people moved houses, people,
Speaker 2: you know it.
Speaker 2: Just it forced us to deal with our shit and,
Speaker 2: in your case, like it's you you, as as any
Speaker 2: true artist does, you you turn to your art
Speaker 2: as as the place to, to synthesize all that
Speaker 2: you were working through.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly and to discern and almost
Speaker 1: decode it all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's great unveiling.
Speaker 1: That's what I called covid yeah it was just
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of stuff we knew was behind
Speaker 1: the curtain yeah, and something just was
Speaker 1: like yo.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's gonna happen with this shit?
Speaker 1: yeah, yeah, and it all came out it wasn't
Speaker 1: just covid at blm, you know, just like yeah
Speaker 1: the facts just everything just was came to
Speaker 1: the fore and rested with social media and I
Speaker 1: think, all in all, there was a great
Speaker 1: unveiling that happened.
Speaker 1: I can't speak for everybody else, but what
Speaker 1: I noticed and I do have my own take on
Speaker 1: pattern recognition is that it seemed to
Speaker 1: happen for a lot of other people and it
Speaker 1: definitely happened for myself.
Speaker 1: It was a great unveiling, a great zeroing
Speaker 1: off, a calibration, whether we all liked it
Speaker 1: or not, or whether I liked it or not, and
Speaker 1: that set the bed for it to begin the
Speaker 1: process in the hard times.
Speaker 1: I'm grateful for my people, all my family.
Speaker 1: I'm not worried about the world.