WEBVTT 00:00:04.411 --> 00:00:10.757 Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke. 00:00:12.144 --> 00:00:18.571 I am Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut Podcast, where we talk about uncut topics, faith, life, ministry, 00:00:18.977 --> 00:00:24.180 and we kind of just try and shoot from the hip a little bit, be honest, kind of let our 00:00:24.337 --> 00:00:29.937 hearts show and kind of give some, I don't know, honest thoughts on whatever it is that we're 00:00:29.937 --> 00:00:37.458 talking about. And today we're not starting with a clear topic necessarily defined other than just 00:00:37.638 --> 00:00:43.210 to kind of like turn on the microphones cause we're both feeling a little bit tired, a little, 00:00:43.777 --> 00:00:52.337 bit, not physically tired necessarily, but, uh, soul tired, soul tired. Um, some of the weariness 00:00:52.337 --> 00:00:59.217 of trying to serve in ministry, trying to, you know, trying to 00:00:59.217 --> 00:01:06.017 kind of honor all the different parts of ourselves and things like that. So we thought we would just turn on the 00:01:06.017 --> 00:01:09.668 microphones and have a conversation about that, about 00:01:09.974 --> 00:01:19.462 what does it look like to even process when we are weary, when we do not want to do the next thing. We would rather be, at 00:01:19.617 --> 00:01:23.883 or at least I would rather be in a cabin in the woods somewhere. Yeah. 00:01:27.237 --> 00:01:31.957 I feel like maybe when it's not even that you don't want to do the next thing, 00:01:31.957 --> 00:01:36.957 but that you have nothing left to give to the next thing. 00:01:39.437 --> 00:01:47.009 Yeah. You know, like as a, for instance, we're recording this on a Thursday afternoon, 00:01:47.437 --> 00:01:48.513 almost three o'clock. 00:01:49.397 --> 00:01:56.557 Friday's my day off, my Sabbath, and then I usually take Saturday off too 00:01:56.557 --> 00:02:00.037 so I can have like a weekend, like a, you know. 00:02:00.037 --> 00:02:05.517 Do things with your family, all of that. Well, it's three o'clock in the afternoon 00:02:05.517 --> 00:02:07.958 on my last day of work, 00:02:09.397 --> 00:02:16.069 and I don't have my sermon done, and I, 00:02:17.338 --> 00:02:23.668 Want to have my sermon done and I wish it was done, but I'm in a place where my week has been. 00:02:25.746 --> 00:02:31.940 My week has been like just really hard It's been really emotionally, 00:02:32.548 --> 00:02:36.168 Taxing and draining. It's been really spiritually taxing and draining. I've been, 00:02:38.068 --> 00:02:44.728 Wrestling with some really difficult things and difficult situations and not difficult people but like 00:02:44.728 --> 00:02:56.528 situations that, you know, the frailties of all humanity are on full display, my own included. 00:02:56.528 --> 00:03:10.488 And I'm just like, kind of, I'm at the end of my gas tank for the week without there being any, 00:03:10.488 --> 00:03:15.223 any substantial rest or re-pouring or refilling, 00:03:16.128 --> 00:03:17.482 which makes it hard because now. 00:03:20.088 --> 00:03:27.048 I pretty much know that the rest of, probably after we're done here today, 00:03:27.048 --> 00:03:29.788 I'm probably gonna be done for the week, done for the day. 00:03:31.448 --> 00:03:35.208 There's no point in me sitting at my desk and staring into my computer 00:03:35.208 --> 00:03:38.133 trying to write a sermon and just have nothing coming. 00:03:38.328 --> 00:03:43.328 Staring at the proverbial blank page. Yeah, I'm in a similar place. 00:03:43.328 --> 00:03:50.488 I've just been very, I don't know, I kind of hit this, the beginning of this year, I think, 00:03:52.008 --> 00:03:57.056 I had the sense in talking with you, we both had the sense that this year was going to be a, 00:03:57.328 --> 00:04:01.260 like, busy year, but also like a year with 00:04:01.648 --> 00:04:08.408 probably a lot of really crucial things happening and just like a lot needed from us out of, 00:04:08.408 --> 00:04:10.389 as far as leadership here at the church. 00:04:10.448 --> 00:04:14.488 And I'm hitting a... 00:04:16.069 --> 00:04:21.519 I need a breather marker or something like that. The last couple of weeks have just been a little 00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:32.719 bit harder for me to bring my best self to just about anything. Last night taught our Wednesday 00:04:32.719 --> 00:04:41.759 night class, which is like, love teaching that class. It's a lot of fun, but it's an hour and a 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:52.079 half of pretty intense talking. And if you've ever had to teach for an hour and a half, 00:04:52.825 --> 00:05:00.719 you need to know your content pretty well. And it's content I enjoy. It's like, you know, 00:05:00.719 --> 00:05:07.439 we're doing spiritual life and what does it mean to grow and what are the stages of spiritual 00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:13.359 growth and stuff I think is really important, but like yesterday I was just like putting 00:05:13.359 --> 00:05:18.905 together like this slideshow for it and I'm just like I'm really struggling to put two 00:05:19.039 --> 00:05:22.639 sentences together and today has been similarly. 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:30.887 I've been able to, anything that requires significant higher brain functioning, I can 00:05:31.085 --> 00:05:34.919 you know, move thing from point a to point B or do something kind of, um. 00:05:36.239 --> 00:05:43.439 Uh, I don't know, more paperwork ish. Um, doesn't require creativity or, 00:05:43.559 --> 00:05:45.959 no, it doesn't require my creative muscle. 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:55.039 Doesn't require my like emotional muscle doesn't require the like higher capacity intellectual muscle. Um, and there is like a, 00:05:56.021 --> 00:06:00.918 As a point, I used to have to do this. 00:06:01.080 --> 00:06:07.719 I don't know when exactly I learned this lesson, but there came a point, maybe it was when 00:06:07.719 --> 00:06:13.419 I was in college and studying, or I don't know, but there comes a point when my brain 00:06:13.419 --> 00:06:22.139 is done, and if I just try and keep going, I might spend another hour or two hours, paragraph 00:06:22.139 --> 00:06:28.139 an hour or paragraph half hour, which is really slow writing space, because you're constantly like, 00:06:28.699 --> 00:06:33.615 stopping or like, that's not right. What I want to say, you're kind of, you get it written. And 00:06:33.768 --> 00:06:38.779 then I would come back to it the next day or even a couple of days later when I had my energy back. 00:06:38.779 --> 00:06:44.139 And I would just end up deleting everything I wrote while I was in that point of exhaustion 00:06:44.139 --> 00:06:51.899 because it was garbage. I'm just not doing work that's quality. It's not representative 00:06:51.899 --> 00:06:55.579 of good thought, or where I'm at, or what I'm thinking. 00:06:55.579 --> 00:06:58.579 It's just me trying to do something. 00:06:58.767 --> 00:07:01.513 Right. Right. Yeah. Question. 00:07:02.579 --> 00:07:11.299 When you, have you ever had the situation where someone has asked you whether or not 00:07:11.299 --> 00:07:14.179 you think they should go into ministry? 00:07:16.402 --> 00:07:22.614 Yeah, once or twice, I think. One kind of stands out in particular. 00:07:22.866 --> 00:07:32.092 Yeah. How do you approach that question with people and what was your answer? 00:07:33.444 --> 00:07:41.612 So my answer to this one individual in particular, I was in the latter half of my degree, 00:07:41.807 --> 00:07:48.812 my pastoral ministry degree. And I was really loving the classes I was studying, 00:07:48.964 --> 00:07:52.572 which I was studying a lot of counseling classes. I was doing like. 00:07:55.372 --> 00:08:01.132 You know, really digging into how do you work with people who are dealing with suffering. And, 00:08:01.932 --> 00:08:06.652 I had like a preaching class, but then I was also doing leadership classes and things like that. 00:08:06.652 --> 00:08:13.492 And I had a freshman come in who I had a previous relationship. He had gone to my 00:08:13.492 --> 00:08:17.972 church. He'd been in my youth group that I had led. And he came and he was very 00:08:17.972 --> 00:08:23.092 excited to be pastor. He wanted to be a pastor. And I was just telling him about 00:08:23.092 --> 00:08:29.087 all the exciting stuff I was learning in my class. And he was like, is that, is that. 00:08:30.732 --> 00:08:33.966 All the stuff? Like is that what the majority of your degree talks about? Like, 00:08:34.911 --> 00:08:40.292 I had the benefit, the degree I took was very practical, so it was meant to 00:08:40.292 --> 00:08:49.612 compete with an MDiv at an undergraduate level with a high emphasis on practicum. So it wasn't overly, like I wasn't taking tons of philosophical 00:08:49.855 --> 00:08:53.897 classes, I was taking a lot of practical questions classes. And he was like, 00:08:54.252 --> 00:08:57.588 how many theology credits do you get? I was like, oh, like these. 00:08:58.803 --> 00:09:06.812 I was like, well, tell me, what do you think a pastor does? Like, what do you think a pastor's role, like what do you envision yourself doing in five 00:09:06.812 --> 00:09:11.412 years, six years, when you graduate from your program and you're a pastor at a 00:09:11.412 --> 00:09:15.872 church, what do you want to be doing? He's like, well I just want to sit in my 00:09:15.872 --> 00:09:22.292 office and I want to read theology books and philosophy. I want to write and then 00:09:22.292 --> 00:09:26.172 preach on Sundays. I was like, is that all you want to do? He's like, yeah. I was like, then 00:09:26.172 --> 00:09:27.124 And you shouldn't be a pastor. 00:09:29.042 --> 00:09:36.012 I just told him, I was like, do you have any interest in someone coming into you and having 00:09:36.012 --> 00:09:42.176 a difficult experience or marriage or problem that they're wrestling with their faith and. 00:09:44.418 --> 00:09:50.492 Counseling them through that or just being present with them and spiritual insight to that? 00:09:50.492 --> 00:09:56.589 And he was like, that sounds awful. Then you should not be a pastor, friend, because you're 00:09:56.972 --> 00:10:03.692 you're not even like, like the space you're going to end up in like, if what you what he essentially wanted to be was 00:10:03.692 --> 00:10:07.914 like a professor wants to be a professor or high level teaching, 00:10:08.814 --> 00:10:16.007 pastor where all the other pastoral responsibilities are off his plate. But you can't get to a position like that without 00:10:16.115 --> 00:10:22.398 first being a pastor who has all that stuff on their plate. It's like you you should not. 00:10:23.037 --> 00:10:26.260 Would you, how would your answer change if he asked you now? 00:10:28.052 --> 00:10:38.132 After having, you know, six, seven years as a pastor? Yeah, I'd still say, like, to him specifically, 00:10:38.972 --> 00:10:40.637 shouldn't be a pastor. 00:10:40.853 --> 00:10:47.704 I think if I asked him, when one of the things that I did is I asked him, I said, why do you want to be a pastor? 00:10:48.253 --> 00:10:54.492 And he was like, well, I can't remember specifically, but it was a family member, 00:10:54.492 --> 00:11:02.412 I think it might have been his grandmother, had always said, oh, you'll make such a good pastor someday. 00:11:02.412 --> 00:11:06.923 And he found church to be a really valuable thing in his life, it meant a lot to him. 00:11:07.995 --> 00:11:15.002 Um, he really loved the jousting of ideas and wrestling with faith and theology. 00:11:15.002 --> 00:11:20.522 So like he was really into the Bible and its correlation and intersection of philosophy 00:11:20.522 --> 00:11:22.893 and loved all of that. 00:11:23.182 --> 00:11:35.101 And he just thought that being a pastor was that. And I was like, well, that's like one, like you, just because somebody said someday that 00:11:35.302 --> 00:11:39.302 you would make a really good pastor doesn't mean that you should be a pastor. 00:11:39.818 --> 00:11:45.622 Yeah. That's – he was, I think, in some ways looking – because everybody who starts college as a 00:11:45.622 --> 00:11:50.262 freshman is a little bit looking for direction still, even though they've declared a major. 00:11:52.709 --> 00:12:01.999 And I think he was still maybe living out somebody else's plan for him more than he had a clear vision of his own plan for himself. 00:12:02.242 --> 00:12:09.222 Yeah, or calling. were calling. And that was the thing is that he was absent any level of calling. It wasn't a, 00:12:11.290 --> 00:12:17.195 no deep impression from God. If anything, it was a little bit more of a debtor's like, 00:12:17.654 --> 00:12:23.222 God has done so much for me, ought I do this? Isn't this just the most faithful thing that I 00:12:23.222 --> 00:12:30.822 could do? I was like, no, not necessarily. Especially if you're gonna just be a bad pastor. 00:12:31.365 --> 00:12:48.942 Right right I had a seminary professor once at least I think it was the seminary I guess I'm a little foggy it's no it may have been undergrad it was 00:12:48.942 --> 00:12:52.079 undergrad, it was undergrad. 00:12:54.825 --> 00:12:59.632 And he, and I did an undergrad degree in, 00:13:02.035 --> 00:13:08.195 I did a dual degree. It was a religion philosophy major first, 00:13:08.195 --> 00:13:13.468 and then a, what was at that point called contemporary ministry, which was pastoral ministry, essentially. 00:13:14.288 --> 00:13:20.832 And one of our Bible professors, New Testament scholar, who, you know, 00:13:22.435 --> 00:13:28.952 at a relatively small college, like I went to Robert Swesslian College at that point, now University. 00:13:30.635 --> 00:13:36.275 You know, if you take theology classes, New Testament classes, over the course of four years, 00:13:36.275 --> 00:13:39.795 you're gonna get the same professors a lot. 00:13:39.795 --> 00:13:47.011 Yeah, you're gonna get the ones that, yeah. And so, in a way, those professors, 00:13:47.995 --> 00:13:51.485 if they have even a hint of a pastoral heart, end up really pastoring. 00:13:51.795 --> 00:13:53.690 Yes, they do. Those kids. 00:13:54.069 --> 00:14:04.781 And I would say probably some of the most influential men in my life, spiritually developing 00:14:04.871 --> 00:14:10.156 my sense of calling, were some of my main professors in undergrad. 00:14:10.444 --> 00:14:21.315 Dr. Casey Davis, Dr. Richard Middleton, Dr. Andrew Kale, Reverend and Pastor Wally Fleming, 00:14:21.315 --> 00:14:33.395 Dr. Doug Cutlam, and there was a, there was at one point where we were, we had gotten 00:14:33.395 --> 00:14:38.075 off topic of whatever the theological topic was, and we were talking about pastoral ministry 00:14:38.075 --> 00:14:43.315 in general, and one of the, one of my New Testament professors was also a free Methodist 00:14:43.315 --> 00:14:50.504 pastor. And he essentially said something to the effect of. 00:14:52.169 --> 00:15:05.799 If there is anything at all that you can imagine or believe that you could do for the rest 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:12.793 of your life other than pastoral ministry, do that. 00:15:12.979 --> 00:15:14.378 Do that thing. Yeah. 00:15:14.979 --> 00:15:26.259 I've heard that in several versions or ways. Right, if there is anything else, choose that. 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:31.743 We went on to talk about, we went on to have a conversation in class, 00:15:32.719 --> 00:15:37.719 about those time periods where we enter into, 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:43.752 a desire to be a pastor for really rose-tinted reasons. 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:47.119 Really rose-tinted reasons. 00:15:49.619 --> 00:15:54.919 Your example, I wanna just do theology and philosophy and I wanna preach on Sundays 00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:58.498 and I wanna be well-regarded as a scholar and a teacher. 00:16:00.999 --> 00:16:05.943 And a lot of it is to have influence. 00:16:08.079 --> 00:16:13.239 And that's not necessarily a purely negative thing. We all wanna have influence, 00:16:13.239 --> 00:16:16.239 Leadership is influence, right? 00:16:16.239 --> 00:16:20.719 We'd be able to lead people to Jesus, influence people towards relationship with Jesus. 00:16:20.719 --> 00:16:23.821 But sometimes that pull towards influence, 00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:32.679 can be a pull towards our own sense of pride. 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:41.556 Well, if you've grown up in the church, like if you were a kid who was raised in the church, 00:16:41.745 --> 00:16:49.599 particularly within the last several decades, like who are the people that your parents, 00:16:50.479 --> 00:16:51.989 everybody looks up to? 00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:57.599 Pastors, pastors with the podcasts, the TV programs, the books. 00:16:57.599 --> 00:17:02.279 Well, there is still, and I still experience this even now in 2023, 00:17:03.719 --> 00:17:09.508 although the culture has shifted significantly in the last 50 years, the last 100 years. 00:17:12.154 --> 00:17:21.799 That there still is a somewhat of a culture, over cultural respect for the office of clergy. 00:17:22.919 --> 00:17:31.734 People that would treat other people or other professions or just generally walk around with an air of disrespect. 00:17:33.013 --> 00:17:41.103 To anyone, would treat clergy as like a, you know, oh, I will, which we talked about this 00:17:41.103 --> 00:17:46.138 in kind of like one of our first episodes, like people who call us pastor. 00:17:47.343 --> 00:17:48.903 Rather than Cameron or Luke. 00:17:48.903 --> 00:17:54.510 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or the way it always plays out for me is if I encounter someone who's maybe 00:17:54.663 --> 00:17:59.343 a little bit rougher around the edges and then they find out I'm a pastor and they're like, oh, I'm sorry, 00:17:59.343 --> 00:18:01.019 I was just cursing, sorry, pastor. 00:18:01.183 --> 00:18:07.783 Like, you know, like, um, there is like, uh, I can't remember exactly what it was 00:18:07.783 --> 00:18:09.623 called and I know it's out there. 00:18:09.743 --> 00:18:15.023 Say update it somewhat regularly. It's like a prestige index or something like that. 00:18:15.023 --> 00:18:19.943 It ranks vocations and professions by their perceived prestige. 00:18:20.383 --> 00:18:25.023 And usually somewhere up in the couple top is pastors. 00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:30.303 Um, I know over the last couple of decades, uh, with the continued scandals 00:18:30.303 --> 00:18:38.522 of the church and things like that, that pastors have kind of dropped on that index a little bit. But depending on your, your, 00:18:39.143 --> 00:18:48.623 area and where you're at, like, no, that exists, like pastors still have a bit of a prestige to them as just for the fact of 00:18:48.643 --> 00:18:50.063 inhabiting the office. 00:18:50.103 --> 00:18:59.020 So it's got me interested here. Okay, so let's see. This is I I just googled occupational prestige index. 00:19:05.343 --> 00:19:09.166 Clergy's on the list, but it's lower than you might think, maybe. 00:19:09.679 --> 00:19:14.432 Yeah, I think that's a newer trend. Right. I think that's a newer trend. 00:19:14.623 --> 00:19:19.623 But we're in a fairly conservative area. 00:19:20.703 --> 00:19:26.162 Yeah. And so I think that people, even if they're not in the church, 00:19:26.643 --> 00:19:33.211 maybe grew up in the church or have a respect for pastors who show up and do a funeral 00:19:33.363 --> 00:19:36.783 and are present in the community. 00:19:36.783 --> 00:19:44.883 We're in a smaller town, city, and so pastors can have a bigger impact here 00:19:44.923 --> 00:19:49.568 than maybe they do in other sets, more suburban or large city centers. 00:19:50.099 --> 00:19:59.263 Well, I think what my professor was saying and where the conversation led was not a discouragement 00:19:59.444 --> 00:20:10.083 of people to respond to a call to ministry, but it was an attempt to give us a little 00:20:10.083 --> 00:20:20.323 bit of an eyes wide open perspective on the difficulty of being in ministry. 00:20:20.323 --> 00:20:30.523 It is not just prestige, and it is not just philosophy and theology and teaching, that that it is. 00:20:33.283 --> 00:20:41.151 We have our grounding and our identity and our calling from the Lord, but that we work with people. 00:20:42.573 --> 00:20:47.516 And that people are, I am a difficult person. 00:20:52.333 --> 00:20:57.453 You are a difficult person. They are difficult people. People are difficult. 00:20:57.453 --> 00:21:02.397 And so, it creates a really significant stress. 00:21:04.813 --> 00:21:13.373 A lot of times. And John Wesley had this famous saying. He was like, unless God has raised you up 00:21:13.373 --> 00:21:18.565 for this very task, you will be worn out by the schemes of men and devils. 00:21:19.069 --> 00:21:33.733 Yeah. Yeah. And so, it's like unless there is a, like, I can do no other thing, there is no other 00:21:33.733 --> 00:21:43.733 thing that God has created me to do or that I want to do. Then, like, if we're not really, 00:21:43.733 --> 00:21:54.053 really, really connected to the reality or truth that God has called me and raised me up for this 00:21:54.053 --> 00:22:04.253 very purpose, for this very calling, for this very task, then the reality of ministry, the attack of 00:22:04.253 --> 00:22:11.840 the enemy, the schemes of devils and men will invariably just wear you out. 00:22:12.785 --> 00:22:30.613 You end up either quitting or doing something extraordinarily stupid, some type of thing 00:22:30.613 --> 00:22:35.057 that disqualifies you from ministry or you. 00:22:36.515 --> 00:22:44.485 You know, just kind of live in perpetual misery and and agony, you know, you can become a, 00:22:45.499 --> 00:22:49.550 Embittered. Yeah, you can become the victim right and become embittered. Yep, 00:22:50.245 --> 00:22:55.065 and No, that's not all of that is to say, 00:22:56.293 --> 00:23:01.560 that Ministry is not just walking on Legos and bare feet. 00:23:01.845 --> 00:23:06.511 You know, it's beautiful and it's sacred. 00:23:07.165 --> 00:23:14.165 And we have a front row seat to the extraordinary brokenness of humanity, 00:23:14.165 --> 00:23:19.339 but we also have a front row seat to the redemption that God offers through Jesus. 00:23:19.565 --> 00:23:26.205 And people turning their lives over to Jesus and surrendering to him and walking by faith 00:23:26.325 --> 00:23:30.365 and experiencing growth, and life, and hope, and eternity. 00:23:31.825 --> 00:23:34.925 We get to be with people on some of their happiest days when they're getting married. 00:23:34.925 --> 00:23:40.805 We get to be with people on some of their most sad days when they're, you know, burying a loved one, 00:23:40.805 --> 00:23:45.005 or their marriage is falling apart, or they're dealing with addiction once again, 00:23:45.005 --> 00:23:47.795 or they're struggling under the weight of mental illness. 00:23:48.085 --> 00:23:52.170 And all of those things, both the joys and the sorrows of life, 00:23:52.565 --> 00:23:56.329 they kind of get carried by pastors. 00:23:56.525 --> 00:24:07.420 And it becomes, it can become a really heavy burden even if you are good at Sabbath, 00:24:09.405 --> 00:24:15.873 and even if you are called and even if you're healthy yourself. 00:24:19.965 --> 00:24:24.011 I think the pat answer would be like, well, you're obviously not resting in the Lord, 00:24:24.425 --> 00:24:29.043 you're not experiencing Sabbath, or maybe you're not called if things are so difficult. 00:24:29.305 --> 00:24:34.305 Or maybe you're not emotionally healthy yourself. 00:24:34.665 --> 00:24:39.145 Those things may be true. Yeah, they can be. Yeah, but I know, 00:24:41.625 --> 00:24:45.385 there's not a thing that anyone could do to convince me that I'm not called to be a pastor. 00:24:45.385 --> 00:24:50.825 Like I am called to pastor people, to move people closer to a relationship with Jesus 00:24:50.825 --> 00:24:52.377 that he can transform their lives. 00:24:52.525 --> 00:24:57.167 That's who I am. I believe that's what I've been created to do and to be. 00:24:59.185 --> 00:25:07.785 Yes, that takes many forms, like many forms of ministry, but there's nothing that anyone could do 00:25:07.785 --> 00:25:10.958 to make me believe or to convince me that 00:25:11.145 --> 00:25:18.844 that's not my calling, even in the midst of the calling being extraordinarily difficult sometimes, 00:25:18.985 --> 00:25:22.661 which is, I think, why there's been, 00:25:23.065 --> 00:25:25.497 like, there's a stick-to-it-iveness. 00:25:26.784 --> 00:25:33.065 Yeah. Because, like, what am I gonna go do? go friggin sort. 00:25:32.221 --> 00:25:40.311 Twisted two by fours at Home Depot for a living like I don't know. No, no This is who I am. This is what God's created me to do, 00:25:41.431 --> 00:25:48.231 But it's freaking hard. Yeah well Yeah, there is something. 00:25:49.542 --> 00:25:53.871 It's one of those and like I don't want to pretend that there are not other, 00:25:54.551 --> 00:25:58.391 professions and vocations that are difficult and require Oh Oh. 00:25:58.391 --> 00:26:01.391 Significant things. Yeah, of course. This just happens to be the one that we're in. 00:26:01.391 --> 00:26:03.391 We are in and we're talking. Right. 00:26:03.765 --> 00:26:09.311 But I had a friend who put it this way, and I'm sure he was probably quoting someone, 00:26:09.311 --> 00:26:13.831 but I don't know who, but it has always kind of stuck with me. 00:26:13.831 --> 00:26:21.711 And he said something about like, the congregation doesn't need what you know or what you can 00:26:21.711 --> 00:26:24.507 do as much as they just need your holiness. 00:26:24.660 --> 00:26:36.231 And I was like, yeah, that's a little bit of like, because I worked in a grocery store, 00:26:36.231 --> 00:26:45.911 I've done work as a contractor, not a contractor, a carpenter, not very good carpenter, but I tried. 00:26:45.911 --> 00:26:48.911 I'll pass tomorrow to you. Just like Jesus. Just like Jesus. 00:26:48.911 --> 00:26:59.191 But, like, that was, you know, those were hard jobs with their own things, but one of 00:26:59.191 --> 00:27:05.350 the things that they didn't require is they didn't require the amount of emotional and. 00:27:06.151 --> 00:27:13.831 Personal energy that it required for me to say, hi, welcome to shopping center. 00:27:13.831 --> 00:27:22.551 I help you find anything today?" versus the task of not just writing something that is interesting. 00:27:23.444 --> 00:27:28.471 On a week-to-week basis, but writing something that is from the Lord. From the Lord, yeah. 00:27:29.053 --> 00:27:34.391 And in stewarding my heart in such a way as that I am close with the Lord, 00:27:35.228 --> 00:27:40.151 and I'm drawing other people closer to him, where I'm at least pointing the way, 00:27:40.151 --> 00:27:47.991 and then being available to have, you know, you know, anywhere from just little 00:27:47.991 --> 00:27:53.731 quick side conversations on a Sunday to hour-long plus conversations with people 00:27:53.731 --> 00:28:04.991 in the week about like what they're struggling with, their opinions about what I should be doing, like anything, right? Like that requires so much more 00:28:04.991 --> 00:28:18.231 out of me then and it doesn't just require what I know it doesn't just require like expertise it requires me to be someone in a certain sense and that 00:28:18.231 --> 00:28:19.231 That is... 00:28:21.293 --> 00:28:26.583 That's different, you know, and I think, you know, you can't always. 00:28:29.179 --> 00:28:34.983 Name it. Like it's not always easy for some people to put their finger on it sometimes when 00:28:34.983 --> 00:28:41.287 they are interacting with someone who's leading out of a place of general authenticity and, 00:28:42.583 --> 00:28:48.983 out of cell, out of like a place in which they are, have been and where they're at versus just 00:28:48.983 --> 00:28:58.983 leading out of like charisma or skill or you know but like people can tell the 00:28:58.983 --> 00:29:04.023 difference if you if you learn if you pay attention you can see the difference 00:29:04.023 --> 00:29:08.852 between someone who's operating out of one place and not the other yeah well 00:29:09.063 --> 00:29:14.743 and if you can't see it right away you will eventually you will eventually see 00:29:14.743 --> 00:29:31.160 Yeah, because there is charisma and personality like we will, like our, it will rise, it will 00:29:31.543 --> 00:29:36.903 rise to the level of our character. 00:29:37.203 --> 00:29:42.737 And so when, if we're abiding in Christ and remaining connected with Christ, right? 00:29:43.423 --> 00:29:49.583 If the righteousness of Jesus is truly our own righteousness and that's what we're operating 00:29:49.583 --> 00:29:53.183 out of, then we're operating from a place of his strength within us. 00:29:53.183 --> 00:30:02.263 But if we're operating from a place of just like, I'm good at the skills that it requires, 00:30:02.263 --> 00:30:08.563 then we'll quickly run aground. 00:30:08.563 --> 00:30:14.963 Things will quickly quickly run aground on the reality of human frailty and will 00:30:14.963 --> 00:30:22.083 be exposed for what they are and that's a sad and sometimes sobering truth but 00:30:22.083 --> 00:30:30.803 it's true you know it is very true so. I was there was a book that I read, 00:30:31.682 --> 00:30:41.003 Crucifixion of Ministry I do not remember who wrote it off the top of my but that's the title of it, The Crucifixion of Ministry, and he had a 00:30:41.003 --> 00:30:45.963 a paradigm that I have to remind myself of. 00:30:47.904 --> 00:30:53.834 And this conversation is reminding me of it again. He, he, he didn't love, you know, he kind of makes, 00:30:53.834 --> 00:30:57.114 he has this point and he kind of talks about like the fact that like, 00:30:58.005 --> 00:31:02.299 we need to as pastors somewhat die to our conception of ministry. 00:31:02.596 --> 00:31:04.314 Oh, absolutely. And to ourselves. 00:31:06.214 --> 00:31:11.194 And he said, he's like, his personal preference was not to be called or referred to as a pastor. 00:31:11.904 --> 00:31:16.874 What was to be referred to as a preacher. And it's not for the reason that I think a lot of 00:31:16.874 --> 00:31:23.514 people like being called preacher, not because he was necessarily fixated on the act of preaching, 00:31:23.514 --> 00:31:30.260 as we think, on a Sunday morning, where someone gets up, opens the Bible, and, you know, 00:31:30.341 --> 00:31:36.874 talks, and everyone pays attention. But more that he was like, no, we are preachers first and 00:31:36.874 --> 00:31:43.594 primarily is because we're not the ones doing the work. We're the ones proclaiming what Christ is 00:31:43.594 --> 00:31:52.612 doing. So his whole conception was that Christ's ministry never stopped. He imparted it and is. 00:31:52.954 --> 00:32:00.874 Continuing to do it through his church. And we, if we have any sort of conception that it's our 00:32:00.874 --> 00:32:07.274 ministry, and that we're the ones who are going to do the ministry here, we've missed the train. 00:32:07.274 --> 00:32:15.114 And that it's Christ, and that we should primarily be proclaimers of what it is 00:32:15.114 --> 00:32:21.594 that Christ is doing. I'm not calling you to faith, Christ is calling you to faith. 00:32:21.843 --> 00:32:26.314 I'm not walking with you through this pain and difficult circumstance, Christ 00:32:26.314 --> 00:32:36.074 is walking through you with this difficult circumstance. That's a very rough summary of his book and his concept, but I have to be reminded of 00:32:36.074 --> 00:32:41.434 that because my default is to just do it myself. 00:32:41.434 --> 00:32:43.970 Yeah, to show up, to bring yourself to the party. 00:32:44.154 --> 00:32:44.528 Yeah. 00:32:44.843 --> 00:32:47.526 Yeah, bring yourself to the work. Right. Where? 00:32:47.886 --> 00:32:53.486 Really, my job is to show up and to look around and notice what Christ is doing. Yeah. 00:32:54.683 --> 00:32:56.537 And point that out to people. Right. Right. 00:33:00.525 --> 00:33:14.034 Do you think what we're experiencing is like, burnout is kind of like the scary term? Yeah. 00:33:14.034 --> 00:33:18.980 Do you think, like, do you think it's just a rough week? 00:33:19.274 --> 00:33:23.154 Or do you think that there's any like, like, because I've, you know, I've, I've listened 00:33:23.154 --> 00:33:29.834 to a lot of people talk about burnout and I don't always, I don't think those 00:33:29.834 --> 00:33:33.735 Those conversations have always been super helpful. 00:33:35.220 --> 00:33:41.190 And I'm not entirely sure if I've ever really experienced like what would be true burnout. 00:33:41.190 --> 00:33:48.390 I think I've experienced some like pretty down and difficult and exhausting times and places where I've kind of gotten 00:33:48.390 --> 00:33:55.016 to the end of my rope, but I don't know that that was, that was more personal growth and personal crisis, 00:33:55.592 --> 00:33:57.348 than it felt like burnout. 00:33:57.790 --> 00:34:02.299 Yeah, I don't know. I don't think so. I don't think it's burnout. 00:34:02.490 --> 00:34:11.250 I don't know if it was John Mark Comer that I heard say that the way that he would describe 00:34:11.250 --> 00:34:27.838 burnout is a type of experience that just like your fairly normal rhythmic Sabbath practice, 00:34:28.397 --> 00:34:29.648 does not touch. 00:34:30.170 --> 00:34:38.690 Yes, that was that was Tacoma. Yeah that it just doesn't he like Okay, you're burnt out when? 00:34:40.190 --> 00:34:46.490 The normal practice of Sabbath is not addressing the place that you're at. Mm-hmm. 00:34:49.597 --> 00:34:58.770 And I Don't feel There I don't feel there. Yeah, maybe I don't know. Maybe I'm in on the edge of it 00:34:58.770 --> 00:35:09.570 maybe we're on the edge of it, maybe. I don't think so, though. My hope is that even after 00:35:09.570 --> 00:35:19.490 a few days here of rest, that there'll be a much different. 00:35:21.150 --> 00:35:26.404 Heart space, head space, physical space that I'm in on Sunday morning. 00:35:26.404 --> 00:35:33.484 Now, that's not to say that, you know, like, you know, because I'm going to be leaving 00:35:33.484 --> 00:35:39.479 the office today with a sermon not completed, you know, I'm going to be reengaging the 00:35:39.587 --> 00:35:44.644 work of ministry at some point in the next two days to finish that. 00:35:44.644 --> 00:35:51.764 So that kind of always, you know, like if I don't have my sermon done by the time I 00:35:51.764 --> 00:36:03.324 leave on a Thursday afternoon, Thursday evening, then it really looms in my soul until the 00:36:03.324 --> 00:36:05.884 period is put at the end of that sentence. 00:36:05.884 --> 00:36:10.293 It's very difficult to actually like rest. 00:36:10.684 --> 00:36:18.524 So I don't know, we'll see what the weekend brings, you know, hoping for some believing 00:36:18.524 --> 00:36:30.368 for some rest that I can't produce on my own, but that the Lord meets with me and brings, 00:36:31.287 --> 00:36:32.178 into my life. 00:36:32.444 --> 00:36:39.504 Because having another week like this is not, you know, back to back or whatever it will 00:36:39.504 --> 00:36:41.126 not be, would not be good. 00:36:42.504 --> 00:36:45.186 Wouldn't be good for me. No. No. 00:36:45.504 --> 00:36:54.344 Well, and I do think, like, at least for myself, I think for you, is I think we've been doing 00:36:54.344 --> 00:37:00.584 personal work and we've been doing, like, ministry work long enough to know that just 00:37:00.584 --> 00:37:07.052 Just because we have a tough week where we feel like we're just slogging it out. 00:37:08.358 --> 00:37:15.965 Does not mean that we've, we've done it enough to have the perspective to know that next week might 00:37:16.118 --> 00:37:23.888 very well be very different. Like I've had enough, I've had enough down days to know that down days 00:37:23.888 --> 00:37:30.288 pass. And I've had enough good days to know that good days pass too. Like I just, like I. 00:37:32.368 --> 00:37:37.568 Sometimes if I'm having a particularly rough day, I just, you know what, it's time for me to go to 00:37:37.568 --> 00:37:41.819 go to bed because I just need to start the day over. I need to start fresh. 00:37:43.488 --> 00:37:49.939 Like I will, and sometimes it's a bit of a battle, but I think I've gotten to a place where I can, 00:37:50.528 --> 00:37:54.495 sometimes, for the most part, I don't usually have a hard time falling asleep. 00:37:55.528 --> 00:38:00.760 And that's because I usually know that if I were, if I can just fall asleep and wake up rested, 00:38:01.648 --> 00:38:07.899 that my opinion and perspective and feelings about whatever it is I'm stressing about 00:38:08.048 --> 00:38:09.780 will be different in the morning. 00:38:10.088 --> 00:38:16.808 I'm very tired, I'm very tied to my physical rest. If I am not physically rested, 00:38:18.008 --> 00:38:21.128 I just know that I am not thinking and seeing things clearly, 00:38:21.128 --> 00:38:22.600 and so I know that about myself. 00:38:24.268 --> 00:38:27.628 But I guess all that to say, and just to share with anyone listening, 00:38:27.628 --> 00:38:31.494 is like, we're not panicking. 00:38:31.908 --> 00:38:37.768 No, no, it's not, it's not, you know, like sending the troops, we need help. 00:38:37.768 --> 00:38:39.812 It's just that, hey, this week was hard. 00:38:40.408 --> 00:38:46.888 And ministry is hard. and you probably had a hard week too. 00:38:48.121 --> 00:38:56.611 Yeah. I know, like, you know, my wife is a stay-at-home mom. Her job was really hard this week, 00:38:57.411 --> 00:39:04.211 for several different reasons, you know. We're not the only ones that have hard weeks. Everyone 00:39:04.211 --> 00:39:11.891 does. Right. And I think we're just reflecting on how, what are the particularities of difficult 00:39:11.891 --> 00:39:14.971 weeks when you're in ministry because there's not always a whole lot of 00:39:14.971 --> 00:39:31.451 understanding of like of that like oh your week couldn't possibly be bad you're a pastor you know you work in a church sometimes the work can feel a 00:39:31.451 --> 00:39:37.251 little invisible because it's it is it's one of those it's one of those jobs 00:39:37.251 --> 00:39:42.771 it's really hard to like, okay, so what does a pastor do, Cameron? Right? Like. 00:39:44.196 --> 00:39:48.291 That's a really hard question to answer. Cause are you asking, cause am I asking for your hourly, 00:39:49.174 --> 00:39:58.451 itemized task list, which looks really random at times, you know, mine does. Or am I asking like, 00:39:58.451 --> 00:40:04.291 what is it is that you're trying to accomplish? Like, like it can be a really difficult question 00:40:04.291 --> 00:40:05.720 and ask that, answer that. 00:40:05.864 --> 00:40:07.836 Yeah, right. 00:40:08.835 --> 00:40:14.795 So if you're out there and you're listening and you've had a difficult week, we're with you. 00:40:14.858 --> 00:40:16.631 And we pray God's best for you 00:40:16.631 --> 00:40:23.311 and maybe that you get some rest here in the next few days and be able to see things a little bit more clearly 00:40:23.311 --> 00:40:30.702 and feel his peace and his presence with you and allow him the space that he desires for you, 00:40:31.458 --> 00:40:38.255 He desires for you so that you can receive the gift of rest from him. 00:40:38.431 --> 00:40:41.730 That's what I want to do. That's what I want. Yep. 00:40:44.412 --> 00:41:04.782 Yeah, just some, I don't know, there's like a lack of like, for me, rest is not just like sitting still, it's a lack of striving to some degree of just being willing to like, I don't have that figured out yet. But I'm going to trust that's being okay right now. 00:41:05.208 --> 00:41:06.774 Yeah, yeah, I like that, 00:41:09.196 --> 00:41:13.102 Like that. Okay. All right. Well if you have any, 00:41:15.362 --> 00:41:24.902 We continue to want to be able to Address some of the questions or topics that are important to our listeners or our viewers or whoever you may be, 00:41:27.389 --> 00:41:45.042 So you can text those into our mailbag 7 1 6 2 0 1 0 5 0 7 That is 716-201-0507 and we'll have some mailbag episodes coming up. 00:41:45.042 --> 00:41:51.785 Also for those of you who watched the last episode, today's energy drink is a Jocko Go 00:41:52.190 --> 00:41:54.063 Citrus Psycho flavor. It's pretty good. 00:41:54.722 --> 00:42:00.562 Jocko, I'm still waiting for my sponsorship letter, but I'll set that here for you. 00:42:00.562 --> 00:42:02.750 Thanks for listening to the Uncut Podcast. We'll see you next time.