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Tom McIltrot: Learn how to build a
better sign and print shop from a

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few crusty sign guys who've made more
mistakes than they care to admit.

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Conversations and advice on pricing,
sales, marketing, workflow, growth,

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Michael Riley: and

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Tom McIltrot: more.

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Your listening to The Better Sign
Shop podcast with your hosts,

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Michael Riley: Peter

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Tom McIltrot: COIs, Michael O'Reilly,

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Michael Riley: and Bryant Gillespie.

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Bryant Gillespie: Before we jump into
the episode, I'd like to give a shout

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out to our sponsor, GCI I Digital Imaging
Grand Format Printer to the trade.

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We talk a lot about outsourcing on
the podcast and the importance of.

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Good partners and GCI Digital Imaging
is a good partner to have owner TJ

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Bak and his team focused on providing
killer customer service just the

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way grandmother used to make it.

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If you're interested in learning
their approach to business, hop

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back into the archives to episode
nine where the guys and I interview

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TJ about customer experience.

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So if you're looking for a high quality
trade printer for banners, wraps,

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and other printed graphics that your
customers throw at you, check out

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GCI Digital imaging@printgci.com.

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Alright guys, welcome to the next
edition of the Better Sign Shop podcast.

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As always, I've got my friends
and colleagues with me, Peter

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Caris, the sign Shop, Yoda.

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How are you Pete?

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How's up everybody?

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Happy to be back.

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Yeah, glad to have you back.

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We missed you last episode.

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And.

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We have the Sign Design Samurai.

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Michael Riley.

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Mike, how are

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Michael Riley: you?

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Is that what you've settled on?

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For me, the Samurai,

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Bryant Gillespie: I, nobody has given
me any new ones, uh, as of late.

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So the second somebody gives me a new one,
, you're gonna get hit with another one.

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I don't, I don't know what it's
gonna be from, you know, I, I've

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run out of nicknames myself.

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I, I'm just exhausted.

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Like, I, I don't have any more brain
powered left to give you a new nickname.

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So somebody else, if you're listening
to this, keep the nicknames coming.

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We want to keep Mike on his toes.

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Michael Riley: I'm having
an identity crisis.

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I'm , I'm starting to freak out
a little bit here every week.

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It's a new , it's a new nickname for Mike.

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I'm good.

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How are you?

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Bryant Gillespie: I'm good.

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Good.

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What's?

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It's good.

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What's new with you guys?

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Pete, dude, what have you been doing?

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Oh, I've been

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Peter Kourounis: really busy.

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I've been real busy.

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I've been keeping myself
busy in the franchise world.

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Also meeting some new sign shop owners in
the world, uh, discussing franchising with

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them, discussing how to make them, you
know, strive for operational excellence.

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So we've been, I've been traveling,
meeting new sign shop owners, helping

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them get their stride, hit their stride,
and love the fact of, uh, trying to

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help as many people as I possibly can.

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Bryant Gillespie: It sounds like you're
really enjoying retirement . Well,

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Michael Riley: yeah.

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Peter Kourounis: You know, uh, throwing
in the, uh, the sign shop owner badge

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for sign shop consultant is, uh, has
been a very busy transaction, a very,

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a busy transition, I should say.

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And it is very heartwarming
and, and welcoming and humbling.

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I love that I get to meet
people in different parts.

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I love that I get to go to
different parts of the country.

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I've never been to
Missouri, never been to.

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Chicago, Georgia.

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So just meeting new sign shop owners,
helping them in their operation.

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It's been, it's been really fun

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Bryant Gillespie: so far.

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Missouri, huh?

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Mm.

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Michael Riley: Exotic

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. 
Bryant Gillespie: Very exotic.

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. Mike, what have you been up to,

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Michael Riley: man?

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Uh, same old, for me, trying to lay
low and just stay busy opposite of

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Peter . Do very d different life tracks.

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I think.

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Enjoying retirement as well.

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Enjoying

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Bryant Gillespie: retirement.

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Jack, are you still staying up till
2:00 AM in the mornings designing

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stuff, or you got that cutout now?

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Michael Riley: Uh, I, I don't know, man.

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I'm on a weird schedule.

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Like I, I, I tend to just kind of
during the day, poke around the house

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and work on house projects and respond
to email anymore it seems like.

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My brain wants to design at night, so I,
I sort of like start working on design

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work after, after dinner, and then
I kind of go till I get tired, which

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is a weird cycle I'm trying to break,
but it's really just kind of like my

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personality and not being so busy that
I have to work until 2:00 AM anymore.

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Kind of got that under control.

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Hey, speaking

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Peter Kourounis: of your designs,
you know, we had a, a post where

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you put out a couple of examples
of some of your most recent work.

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Mockups.

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Eh, it's gotten a lot of praise and
especially in conversations I've had a

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lot of people have shown more impressed
by what you have put out there.

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So, uh, including myself that it was

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Michael Riley: kudos to you.

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. I, uh, I, I think I know which
post you're talking about.

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I think I picked up nine clients
off of one Facebook post , so yeah.

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I guess I need to do more marketing.

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Imagine that.

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Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

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Weird signed guy.

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That, that actually does marketing.

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That's

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Michael Riley: like a, it's an

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Bryant Gillespie: anomaly is what?

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It's a ping one that flies or something.

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Right.

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I was really struggling to, to
come up with something there.

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That's, it's a technology.

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I can tell you guys what
kind of fun I've been

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Michael Riley: having.

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Yeah.

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What have you been up to?

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Brian?

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Car

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Bryant Gillespie: shopping.

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Car shopping again?

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So we, we just got my wife a new car.

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She had it for about three weeks and,
uh, some young buck decided to jump

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in front of her car on the way to
work and, uh, didn't end well for him.

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Didn't end well for the car.

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My wife is okay, thankfully, but
we have totaled two cars in two

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months, so that's where we're at.

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Michael Riley: Just for my own

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Peter Kourounis: clarification,
cuz I'm, I'm a bit up north.

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When you say Young Buck,
that's not a young kid.

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That's a, that's actually
a young deer, correct?

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. 
Bryant Gillespie: That is a deer, yes.

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Peter Kourounis: Okay.

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Just want, just wanted to make
sure that you didn't commit

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like a hit and run there,

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. 
Bryant Gillespie: No, I, I was being
vague, uh, intentionally there,

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but yeah, no, it was, um, it was
just a, a young male deer that for

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whatever reason, decided to play in
traffic eight o'clock in the morning.

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Not wise, he

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Michael Riley: just did it.

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I still can't get over the
fact that she totaled two cars

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within a month of each other.

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Like that's, I can't believe
you guys still have insurance.

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Like I feel like your insurance
company should have dropped you by now.

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Yeah.

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Bryant Gillespie: The cease and
desist letter this week comes

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from the insurance company,

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Michael Riley: Farmer's Insurance.

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Bryant Gillespie: Uh, the insurance
is, we've got really great insurance.

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Yeah.

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It's like the teacher insurance horse man.

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So, and like a, if a deer, if you hit
a deer and there's nothing you can

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do, it's considered an act of God.

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So they can't really penalize
you for that, or at least

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that's what they told us.

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Michael Riley: That's, uh, that's good.

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That's very interesting.

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Bryant Gillespie: I'm not
saying go get like your truck

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and go hit deer on purpose.

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Just

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Michael Riley: Bryant Bryant told
me you guys were cool with this.

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Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

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So I, that's what we've
been wrestling with.

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Other than that, uh, just staying busy.

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Michael Riley: So, have you
guys picked out a new car yet

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or are you still still trying

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Bryant Gillespie: to Uh,
we're, we're deciding.

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My wife likes nice cars, so we're
looking at a Mercedes E-class right now.

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Use one, uh, not a new one, but,
uh, hopefully by the time we record

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the next one, we'll have that
sorted out because we gotta take the

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rental car back tomorrow afternoon.

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Michael Riley: on a scale of one
to 10, how sick and tired are you

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of shopping for cars right now?

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Uh, I'm probably at like an eight

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Bryant Gillespie: and
I enjoy that process.

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My wife is probably like at an
11, uh, just totally defeated.

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Like I feel so bad for her, you know,
like you have the car that you wanted and

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then a deer just jumps in front of you.

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You know, I'm, I'm

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Peter Kourounis: actually interested.

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I have a question Cause I recently
bought a, a couple of vehicles here,

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but I bought mine through an app.

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Cause I hate the experience of
a car dealership experience.

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I mean, we preach on how to sell
signs here and, and how to coach

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people on how only selling signs
do not do it like car dealers do.

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Like that to me is like
the worst of the worst.

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But I, but buying it through
an app is actually right.

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Very simple.

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It actually just got delivered
here this afternoon on a flatbed.

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Like it was seamless.

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So Have you tried

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Bryant Gillespie: that?

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Uh, we looked at Carvana, but they
wouldn't deliver it to our house because

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we live in Podunk, West Virginia.

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So we had to, we would have to drive two
hours to pick up the vehicle, which is

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like, at that point every might as well.

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My wife hates it.

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Like, I, I like to play that
game and , I, I don't know why.

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It's like some, I, no, it's probably
something I need to go to therapy for.

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But, you know,

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? 
Peter Kourounis: Yeah.

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Yep.

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Yep.

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I'm sorry.

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I'd rather listen to people nickel and
dime me over graphic design than ever have

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to go to a car dealership used or new.

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That process is just, I feel like
the moment you walk in the door,

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they're ready to bend you over.

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Like that whole, like that whole
process from beginning to end.

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And when you're finally sitting
in with like that finance manager,

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she's like hitting you with,
do you want rim protection?

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Do you want wheel protection?

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Do you want extra years on your warranty?

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I'm like, I already gave, I
already signed away half of my

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life and spent 18 hours here.

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I'm not looking to spend another
hour with you, talking to you

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about, well, the what ifs.

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Well, we have really great dent
coverage and really great rim.

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Uh, I was like, what
the heck is road rash?

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Oh, road rash.

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Yeah.

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That's when your curbs
run against the curb.

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Uh, your car rims run
against the curb, you know?

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Doesn't that happen?

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It's like $400 or rim to fix.

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I could, uh, if you pay now it's $89.

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Like, lady, stop making my hair gray

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. 
Bryant Gillespie: And that's why haven't
I heard your, your impression of this

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lady, this unnamed car lady before

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Peter Kourounis: Lorraine.

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Her name is Lorraine.

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00:10:10,695 --> 00:10:11,355
Her name is Lorraine.

242
00:10:11,355 --> 00:10:12,915
It's not even Karen, it's Lorraine.

243
00:10:13,275 --> 00:10:16,125
It sh it could be
Beatrice depending on the

244
00:10:17,025 --> 00:10:17,865
Michael Riley: day of the week.

245
00:10:18,645 --> 00:10:21,765
Re reminds me of the Secretary
in, uh, in Monsters Inc.

246
00:10:21,945 --> 00:10:22,425
You guys see that

247
00:10:22,425 --> 00:10:22,785
Bryant Gillespie: movie?

248
00:10:23,505 --> 00:10:24,105
Yes.

249
00:10:24,105 --> 00:10:24,525
I don't know.

250
00:10:24,555 --> 00:10:26,865
I don't remember the
secretary, Mike Kowski.

251
00:10:27,315 --> 00:10:31,265
Peter Kourounis: Mike, you
know, would you like to add

252
00:10:31,265 --> 00:10:33,905
that road to your car warranty?

253
00:10:34,455 --> 00:10:35,065
Bryant Gillespie: That's

254
00:10:35,065 --> 00:10:35,145
Michael Riley: it.

255
00:10:36,635 --> 00:10:38,805
, no, I, it definitely seems
like an industry that's like,

256
00:10:39,045 --> 00:10:42,195
just primed for somebody to
come in and totally disrupt it.

257
00:10:42,195 --> 00:10:45,585
But it's, it's amazing to me that
nobody can or has yet, like, it's

258
00:10:45,585 --> 00:10:49,225
like the, it's the last holdout of
moving to, uh, you know, CarMax,

259
00:10:49,435 --> 00:10:51,915
Bryant Gillespie: Carvana,
like a Carvana True car.

260
00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:53,085
Peter Kourounis: Like
every, like, everything.

261
00:10:53,295 --> 00:10:56,595
If you buy a car through those apps, I
think you'll have a much easier time.

262
00:10:57,135 --> 00:11:01,005
But if they don't deliver to you, then all
right, you gotta go into the dealership.

263
00:11:01,845 --> 00:11:02,055
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

264
00:11:02,385 --> 00:11:04,875
So, enough, enough about the car shopping.

265
00:11:05,475 --> 00:11:07,935
Let's get into it today, Mike.

266
00:11:08,865 --> 00:11:14,055
I know you're a pretty hard
fanboy of Sign Craft Magazine.

267
00:11:14,415 --> 00:11:14,535
I'm

268
00:11:14,535 --> 00:11:15,735
Michael Riley: freaking out over here.

269
00:11:16,005 --> 00:11:16,725
I'm freaking out.

270
00:11:16,815 --> 00:11:18,115
I'm like, who,

271
00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,775
Bryant Gillespie: who do we got about
the Shake Outta My, who do we got?

272
00:11:21,135 --> 00:11:21,825
We got him.

273
00:11:21,975 --> 00:11:22,425
Who is it?

274
00:11:22,455 --> 00:11:23,055
We got him.

275
00:11:23,685 --> 00:11:28,035
Michael Riley: Tom Mcle
Trot of Sign Craft Magazine.

276
00:11:28,365 --> 00:11:28,755
Yeah.

277
00:11:28,845 --> 00:11:28,995
Yeah.

278
00:11:28,995 --> 00:11:29,775
This is exciting.

279
00:11:29,775 --> 00:11:34,845
I, this is Sign Craft was like, and, and,
and still is to an extent the mm-hmm.

280
00:11:34,925 --> 00:11:37,425
, you know, the Bible of,
of sign making for me.

281
00:11:37,485 --> 00:11:41,745
I mean, it just, what an amazing, amazing
magazine that it it is and was, and,

282
00:11:41,745 --> 00:11:46,845
and I've learned so much about the craft
and the art of making signs and, and.

283
00:11:47,925 --> 00:11:50,235
You know, all the skill that
goes into it and the design.

284
00:11:50,235 --> 00:11:52,605
So for me, I'm like, I
didn't sleep last night.

285
00:11:52,605 --> 00:11:55,185
Like, I'm just, I'm giddy with
excitement to talk to this guy.

286
00:11:55,185 --> 00:11:56,755
Like, it's, you have no idea.

287
00:11:56,755 --> 00:11:57,645
This is Mike's Christmas.

288
00:11:57,975 --> 00:11:58,695
Yeah, it is.

289
00:11:58,695 --> 00:12:00,075
Seriously like Christmas and February.

290
00:12:00,075 --> 00:12:00,225
This

291
00:12:00,225 --> 00:12:01,785
Bryant Gillespie: is,
this is gonna be awesome.

292
00:12:02,055 --> 00:12:02,295
All right.

293
00:12:02,565 --> 00:12:03,075
Michael Riley: No, this is it.

294
00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,175
Like this is, this is the
pinnacle of my career right here.

295
00:12:05,180 --> 00:12:06,555
Like, like I have peaked Ooh.

296
00:12:07,095 --> 00:12:07,725
Right now.

297
00:12:07,965 --> 00:12:09,195
And it's all downhill after this.

298
00:12:09,195 --> 00:12:09,345
So.

299
00:12:10,515 --> 00:12:10,845
Bryant Gillespie: All right.

300
00:12:11,085 --> 00:12:11,505
We'll never talk.

301
00:12:11,505 --> 00:12:11,835
Bring him on.

302
00:12:13,035 --> 00:12:13,755
Let's bring him on.

303
00:12:14,445 --> 00:12:14,895
All right guys.

304
00:12:14,895 --> 00:12:18,135
So we are back with Tom
Mcle trot of Sign Craft.

305
00:12:18,435 --> 00:12:19,215
Tom McIltrot: Welcome on Tom.

306
00:12:19,935 --> 00:12:20,865
Thank you, Brian.

307
00:12:20,870 --> 00:12:21,465
Appreciate it.

308
00:12:21,555 --> 00:12:22,605
Thanks for the invitation.

309
00:12:24,015 --> 00:12:24,255
Yeah.

310
00:12:24,285 --> 00:12:24,675
Bryant Gillespie: Super

311
00:12:24,675 --> 00:12:25,335
Michael Riley: nice to have you.

312
00:12:25,815 --> 00:12:27,075
Yeah, we're really excited you're here.

313
00:12:27,435 --> 00:12:28,005
This is cool.

314
00:12:28,875 --> 00:12:29,205
Great.

315
00:12:29,775 --> 00:12:32,985
Bryant Gillespie: Hey, Mike said
this was his Christmas . Oh, yeah.

316
00:12:35,445 --> 00:12:35,655
. 
Michael Riley: Yeah.

317
00:12:35,785 --> 00:12:38,905
I, I had a sleepless night
last night in anticipation.

318
00:12:38,905 --> 00:12:39,145
I'm

319
00:12:41,445 --> 00:12:41,805
, 
Tom McIltrot: like

320
00:12:42,075 --> 00:12:45,015
Bryant Gillespie: so many of
us, like a sign craft when we

321
00:12:45,015 --> 00:12:46,365
were coming up in the industry.

322
00:12:47,145 --> 00:12:51,675
I hate to date myself, I don't know how
many years ago it was now , but like, sign

323
00:12:51,675 --> 00:12:56,834
Craft was, that was how we communicate,
or like how we learned the trade was like,

324
00:12:56,834 --> 00:12:59,025
okay, yeah, I could pick up Sign Craft.

325
00:12:59,235 --> 00:13:04,245
I've got these detailed articles with
all the photos, step-by-step of how

326
00:13:04,245 --> 00:13:07,485
to make this sign or how to design
something, or how to price something.

327
00:13:07,964 --> 00:13:13,035
And you know, I, I know certainly
I wouldn't be here today without

328
00:13:13,035 --> 00:13:16,454
Sy Craft, so just thank you
to get that outta the way.

329
00:13:16,594 --> 00:13:17,175
Well, well,

330
00:13:17,180 --> 00:13:18,045
Tom McIltrot: thank you very much.

331
00:13:18,045 --> 00:13:18,885
That's cool to hear.

332
00:13:19,605 --> 00:13:20,444
Appreciate that.

333
00:13:21,224 --> 00:13:23,655
Bryant Gillespie: Mike, do you want to,
do you wanna get your love letter now?

334
00:13:25,125 --> 00:13:25,574
? 
Michael Riley: Same for me.

335
00:13:25,574 --> 00:13:30,974
I mean, I, when I started in the industry
back in the mid nineties, I, I mean, just

336
00:13:30,980 --> 00:13:34,334
devoured every epi issue, a sign craft
I could get my hands on, and I've still

337
00:13:34,334 --> 00:13:37,425
got, you know, several hundred in storage.

338
00:13:37,545 --> 00:13:39,194
I need to dig those out
and go through 'em again.

339
00:13:39,915 --> 00:13:43,245
. Yeah, I would say 80% of what I.

340
00:13:43,845 --> 00:13:46,485
Know about this industry I
learned from your magazine.

341
00:13:46,995 --> 00:13:47,505
Um, great.

342
00:13:47,615 --> 00:13:49,845
It, it was the greatest thing ever.

343
00:13:49,845 --> 00:13:50,805
I mean, I, I loved it.

344
00:13:50,865 --> 00:13:53,715
I mean, all the way down to like, I
would even geek out over the paper

345
00:13:53,805 --> 00:13:57,165
and the print quality in it, which
was just , you know, several steps

346
00:13:57,170 --> 00:13:58,755
above any other magazine out there.

347
00:13:58,875 --> 00:13:59,445
Tom McIltrot: And it was, yeah.

348
00:13:59,445 --> 00:14:00,105
Well, thank you.

349
00:14:00,105 --> 00:14:01,635
I appreciate you noticed that.

350
00:14:01,635 --> 00:14:02,285
We were, we were always.

351
00:14:02,865 --> 00:14:06,645
Proud of the, of the stock and
the, and the print quality.

352
00:14:06,795 --> 00:14:10,035
And that was a big thing for us
since it was a graphics magazine,

353
00:14:10,035 --> 00:14:11,775
you know, a visual experience.

354
00:14:11,775 --> 00:14:14,295
So we were, we were kind of,
that was important to us.

355
00:14:14,415 --> 00:14:14,745
Yeah.

356
00:14:14,745 --> 00:14:15,015
It made

357
00:14:15,020 --> 00:14:17,865
Michael Riley: a, it made a huge d I
mean, you know, we're all geeks about

358
00:14:17,865 --> 00:14:20,715
that kind of stuff in this industry, and
it definitely made a huge difference.

359
00:14:20,715 --> 00:14:23,355
I mean, it just, the, the tactile feel
of it when you flip through pages, I

360
00:14:23,355 --> 00:14:27,585
mean, it's, it's a much more engaging,
fun experience to read a magazine like

361
00:14:27,585 --> 00:14:31,155
that versus one that's printed on, you
know, like tissue paper, , so, right.

362
00:14:31,765 --> 00:14:32,245
. 
Tom McIltrot: Yeah.

363
00:14:33,155 --> 00:14:33,645
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

364
00:14:33,645 --> 00:14:34,245
So, thanks.

365
00:14:34,485 --> 00:14:38,955
I, I feel like we, we like know the
story of Tom through Sy Craft, but I

366
00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:40,455
really don't know the story of Tom.

367
00:14:40,455 --> 00:14:42,705
So  like, give us, give
us your background.

368
00:14:42,705 --> 00:14:47,085
Like how, how did you get
started in the sign industry?

369
00:14:47,085 --> 00:14:48,944
How did Sign Craft come about?

370
00:14:49,485 --> 00:14:50,025
Tom McIltrot: Sure.

371
00:14:50,265 --> 00:14:56,055
Well, like a lot of folks our, my age,
our age, I was, um, in high school

372
00:14:56,055 --> 00:14:58,725
and whatnot, wanting to do something
with my hands, something creative,

373
00:14:58,785 --> 00:15:03,584
and, uh, worked in a cabinet shop for
a while, worked in, uh, A couple other

374
00:15:03,974 --> 00:15:07,334
kind of hands on businesses, but one
day I was on my way home from school

375
00:15:07,334 --> 00:15:11,625
and there were a couple of guys, three
guys on a billboard in front of a new

376
00:15:11,625 --> 00:15:13,724
development and, uh, back in the field.

377
00:15:13,730 --> 00:15:17,655
So I swung the car off the road and
trudged back there through the muck and

378
00:15:17,765 --> 00:15:21,645
got, got there and asked them, how do
you guys, how do you learn to do this?

379
00:15:21,795 --> 00:15:24,074
And two of 'em said, oh, don't bother.

380
00:15:24,135 --> 00:15:29,295
It's too much work, . And one guy
told me, uh, you just need to get

381
00:15:29,355 --> 00:15:33,405
some old cool sign books and, uh, and
start practicing learn how to letter.

382
00:15:33,704 --> 00:15:35,055
Well, I missed that part.

383
00:15:35,084 --> 00:15:37,425
I, I, I got home, but I
was still cranked about it.

384
00:15:37,425 --> 00:15:40,875
So I, I started thumbing through the
yellow pages and calling sign shops

385
00:15:41,235 --> 00:15:42,824
and seeing if anybody needed help.

386
00:15:43,064 --> 00:15:45,885
So I got all the way to G two shops told.

387
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:47,040
Same thing.

388
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:48,870
If you can't let her, we don't need you.

389
00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:50,310
You know, we don't need
somebody to sweep up.

390
00:15:50,310 --> 00:15:55,350
So, but I got the G and called gene
signs and uh, gene answered the phone

391
00:15:55,740 --> 00:15:59,820
and as luck would have it, he had
a young woman there through a D C

392
00:15:59,820 --> 00:16:03,510
T program at high school, you know,
part-time cooperative training person.

393
00:16:03,900 --> 00:16:05,370
And she had just quit.

394
00:16:05,370 --> 00:16:07,560
So I told him, he said, what can you do?

395
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,430
I said, I'll do anything, you know, I
can paint boards, I can answer the phone.

396
00:16:11,430 --> 00:16:15,930
And so I went there and he had a small
traditional commercial sign shop, and, uh,

397
00:16:17,055 --> 00:16:21,045
Started hanging out there every day after
school, even on days he wasn't paying me

398
00:16:21,045 --> 00:16:22,515
and didn't want me and didn't need me.

399
00:16:22,845 --> 00:16:25,515
Um, and tried to make
myself indispensable.

400
00:16:25,515 --> 00:16:28,785
I dug postals and and stuff
and we, we clicked pretty well.

401
00:16:28,785 --> 00:16:32,595
And so after about a month, he, one day
af after I punched out, he said, you know,

402
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:33,975
here one minute, take a look at this.

403
00:16:33,975 --> 00:16:38,235
And he got a piece of yellow show card
out and slapped it on the easel and

404
00:16:38,325 --> 00:16:42,945
gave me a number six Quill with some
dite poster color and said, watch this.

405
00:16:42,950 --> 00:16:45,195
And he drew me, drew some
lines with his yardstick, you

406
00:16:45,195 --> 00:16:46,845
know, right across there and.

407
00:16:47,685 --> 00:16:51,915
Letter to one stroke, a bunch of one
stroke letters, and, um, and then you sit

408
00:16:51,915 --> 00:16:57,315
here, try and, um, so I did and it was
a god awful experience, you know, and I

409
00:16:57,315 --> 00:17:01,605
still have the, I still have that first,
uh, piece of show card, um, somewhere.

410
00:17:01,635 --> 00:17:02,715
But, but that was it.

411
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,485
I was hooked on making
letters with a brush.

412
00:17:04,485 --> 00:17:08,625
So I, I just went home and built an easel
in the garage and started practicing.

413
00:17:08,685 --> 00:17:14,385
So I was about 16 or 17 at the time, and I
worked there for about three, four years.

414
00:17:14,775 --> 00:17:19,305
And I'm a native of Pennsylvania, so
my, my family at the time returned.

415
00:17:19,305 --> 00:17:21,825
They moved back, they had only
lived in Florida about five years.

416
00:17:22,215 --> 00:17:24,045
They went back to Pennsylvania and.

417
00:17:24,609 --> 00:17:25,545
in that same time.

418
00:17:25,605 --> 00:17:29,415
Both of my older, my brothers, my older
brother and my younger brother wound

419
00:17:29,415 --> 00:17:31,305
up working at that same sign shop.

420
00:17:31,455 --> 00:17:32,715
It was growing like crazy.

421
00:17:32,715 --> 00:17:37,155
And he, by then he had about six
employees, and of which we were three

422
00:17:37,155 --> 00:17:39,675
of, you know, half the staff , um, right.

423
00:17:40,025 --> 00:17:43,185
And, and we, uh, so we,
he, he was getting, he had

424
00:17:43,185 --> 00:17:44,205
gotten into screen printing.

425
00:17:44,205 --> 00:17:47,715
We were printing real estate signs and
t-shirts and, and we were doing all

426
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:49,995
sorts of flat signs, painted signs.

427
00:17:50,415 --> 00:17:53,925
So, so when we decided to move
back to pa, we went up there and

428
00:17:54,015 --> 00:17:57,555
moved back to the small town that
we were from north of Pittsburgh.

429
00:17:57,765 --> 00:18:01,905
And there was no sign shop there,
so there was no place to work.

430
00:18:02,504 --> 00:18:05,295
So we, we just figured,
well, we'll open one.

431
00:18:05,535 --> 00:18:08,055
And so we went into the signed
business, totally green.

432
00:18:08,385 --> 00:18:10,575
Like I say, I was maybe 20 and.

433
00:18:11,310 --> 00:18:14,460
Made all the classic mistakes, worked
there for a couple years and then

434
00:18:14,700 --> 00:18:18,720
decided Florida was a lot better
place to live and work and everything.

435
00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:24,120
While we were there, we um, we got in
sandblasting signs, saw Big John Brice's

436
00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:28,440
book advertised in signs of the Times, and
we, and we blasted our first signs there

437
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,970
in pa and when we got back to Florida,
it was a completely different market,

438
00:18:32,970 --> 00:18:38,040
much better market for blasted signs and
developments were popping up everywhere.

439
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:39,570
And so we did that for a couple years.

440
00:18:39,570 --> 00:18:41,220
And in between we were all single.

441
00:18:41,220 --> 00:18:43,530
Three of us traveled around a lot.

442
00:18:43,860 --> 00:18:47,040
Whenever we did, we stopped in sign
shops and we'd connect with people.

443
00:18:47,430 --> 00:18:49,470
We'd either get chased off
or we'd connect with people.

444
00:18:49,470 --> 00:18:54,750
One of the two . So when we, when we
connected with folks, we often wound

445
00:18:54,750 --> 00:18:56,310
up sending photographs back and.

446
00:18:57,435 --> 00:19:00,435
I was talking to Chester Cunningham at
the time who I had met through sign of the

447
00:19:00,435 --> 00:19:04,935
Times and seen his work there and, um, he
hooked me up with Big John Burell and, and

448
00:19:04,935 --> 00:19:09,855
some folks like that Chuck who Depo and
Bob Sealander, all old time traditional

449
00:19:09,855 --> 00:19:11,534
sign guys who were top of their game.

450
00:19:11,895 --> 00:19:15,044
So they would send photographs to to us.

451
00:19:15,050 --> 00:19:17,205
We would dup 'em and send em to him.

452
00:19:17,205 --> 00:19:18,405
The other folks we knew.

453
00:19:19,034 --> 00:19:22,784
And somewhere along in the line in
there's one of us decided, Hey, wouldn't

454
00:19:22,784 --> 00:19:25,905
it be cool to have a magazine just
for sign painters, which is what we

455
00:19:25,905 --> 00:19:27,705
were primarily, you know, at the time.

456
00:19:28,365 --> 00:19:30,524
So we kicked it around a little bit.

457
00:19:30,530 --> 00:19:35,115
We, we went to the library and
photocopied a thousand sign shop

458
00:19:35,115 --> 00:19:36,584
addresses out of the yellow Pages.

459
00:19:36,615 --> 00:19:39,915
For some reason, the, the library
had yellow pages for the, for

460
00:19:39,945 --> 00:19:41,415
all the major cities there.

461
00:19:41,415 --> 00:19:42,254
And so we just Oh wow.

462
00:19:42,284 --> 00:19:47,745
Got our, got our dimes out and photocopied
all the, all the pages we needed.

463
00:19:47,774 --> 00:19:51,135
We went home, typed up mailing
labels, wrote a letter saying,

464
00:19:51,195 --> 00:19:52,084
here's what we'd like to do.

465
00:19:52,860 --> 00:19:54,300
, it's gonna be nine bucks a year.

466
00:19:54,510 --> 00:19:58,410
It's gonna come out quarterly and it's
gonna be a magazine for sign shops.

467
00:19:58,470 --> 00:20:00,330
It was, it was a very self-serving thing.

468
00:20:00,330 --> 00:20:03,300
It was, we did just what we
wish was coming in our mailbox.

469
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:05,250
So we sent it out.

470
00:20:05,820 --> 00:20:09,360
We got 88 people who sent us
back 88 Brave Souls who sent us

471
00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:11,580
nine bucks to, to give it a go.

472
00:20:11,970 --> 00:20:13,560
And, and that was it.

473
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:18,030
We got started in 1980, printed a
thousand copies of the first issue.

474
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:18,460
Wow.

475
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,840
Went back to the sign shop and slid
'em in envelopes and sent 'em away.

476
00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:27,750
And, uh, a year or so later, we sold the
shop to some friends of ours to get the

477
00:20:27,750 --> 00:20:30,300
cash we needed to start printing color.

478
00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:32,970
Color back then was incredibly expensive.

479
00:20:33,210 --> 00:20:37,740
Separations were 300 bucks
a page for an eight by 10.

480
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:42,750
And, um, and color printing then
was, was really high priced.

481
00:20:42,750 --> 00:20:46,350
So, but there was an explosion coming
that we didn't realize with print.

482
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,800
Print production was getting
easier and more affordable.

483
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,470
And so we just kind of
grew right along with that.

484
00:20:52,650 --> 00:20:56,910
And a couple years later, it was
a full color magazine and, uh,

485
00:20:57,360 --> 00:20:59,130
and the subscription's history.

486
00:20:59,250 --> 00:20:59,520
Wow.

487
00:20:59,580 --> 00:20:59,940
Yeah.

488
00:20:59,940 --> 00:21:02,640
The subscription, the
subscription numbers just grew.

489
00:21:02,645 --> 00:21:03,660
We, we were amazed.

490
00:21:03,665 --> 00:21:07,560
We were totally amazed the, the, and
the cool work that came in, in the

491
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:12,450
mail, you know, envelopes from first,
from like Raymond Chapman and m Marelli

492
00:21:12,450 --> 00:21:14,340
then, and they told other folks.

493
00:21:14,340 --> 00:21:18,090
And then I, I distinctly remember the
day I got an, an envelope from this

494
00:21:18,090 --> 00:21:23,940
cat in Bloomington, Indiana, Gary
Anderson, and slid his photographs out.

495
00:21:23,940 --> 00:21:26,520
And the, the one on the
top was Bloomington Winery

496
00:21:27,210 --> 00:21:28,290
on the top of that stack.

497
00:21:28,290 --> 00:21:31,200
And it, it went on the cover
of that next issue at the time.

498
00:21:31,770 --> 00:21:34,740
And, uh, it was just the start
of a whole bunch of really neat

499
00:21:34,740 --> 00:21:39,060
friendships with really creative
people who were amazingly willing.

500
00:21:39,785 --> 00:21:40,515
to share what they knew.

501
00:21:41,205 --> 00:21:44,625
And, uh, we, we, we had worries
about that initially, about are we

502
00:21:44,625 --> 00:21:45,855
gonna be able to get enough material?

503
00:21:45,855 --> 00:21:47,625
Are people gonna tell us stuff?

504
00:21:47,625 --> 00:21:47,715
Yeah.

505
00:21:47,715 --> 00:21:49,935
And we had been chased out
of sign shops, so we knew it.

506
00:21:50,205 --> 00:21:53,295
Sometimes it was, it was a
touchy subject trying to What

507
00:21:53,295 --> 00:21:56,265
Bryant Gillespie: were those conversations
like when you guys went into a sign shop?

508
00:21:56,295 --> 00:22:00,795
Like you just, like cold walked up to
you, uh, somebody else's a sign shop.

509
00:22:00,865 --> 00:22:00,985
Sure.

510
00:22:00,985 --> 00:22:02,535
It was like, Hey, we're sign guys.

511
00:22:02,535 --> 00:22:04,395
Can we hang out and chat?

512
00:22:04,485 --> 00:22:04,754
Like,

513
00:22:04,905 --> 00:22:05,265
Tom McIltrot: yep.

514
00:22:05,325 --> 00:22:09,465
And I, and you know, I, I remember
going to one in Vermont, Dick Flynn,

515
00:22:09,465 --> 00:22:13,365
he's gone now, but, um, he was a
really cool guy, a great sign Carver,

516
00:22:13,365 --> 00:22:14,865
and a good solid sign painter.

517
00:22:14,985 --> 00:22:18,525
We walked up to his shop and, and
he was out front lettering a truck.

518
00:22:18,765 --> 00:22:21,045
And he worked from,
from studio in his home.

519
00:22:21,045 --> 00:22:23,745
And, and so while he was talking,
while we were talking, he.

520
00:22:24,690 --> 00:22:27,990
Reached up and pulled the
overhead door down to the shop.

521
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,590
So , we couldn't quite, you know, it
was like in the old days, we used to

522
00:22:31,590 --> 00:22:35,310
say, oh, a sign, another sign guy, you
know, hide the patterns, um, hide the

523
00:22:35,315 --> 00:22:40,620
work orders, . Um, but, um, so, but
we went on to become great friends.

524
00:22:40,710 --> 00:22:44,970
Uh, and Dick was a big, um,
proponent for, uh, for us,

525
00:22:45,590 --> 00:22:46,710
encouraging us to do sign craft.

526
00:22:47,010 --> 00:22:51,330
He, he was a great guy and, but, you
know, some, some, it's, it's really

527
00:22:51,710 --> 00:22:55,080
probably not too different than it is
now for you guys visiting sign shops.

528
00:22:55,500 --> 00:22:59,130
Some shops are very open and
very motivated and they're

529
00:22:59,250 --> 00:23:00,660
excited about what they're doing.

530
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,830
They wanna do new things and
other shops are more in a niche.

531
00:23:04,890 --> 00:23:08,220
They don't really wanna
maybe do any experimenting.

532
00:23:08,430 --> 00:23:11,490
They don't really wanna talk,
uh, about, about the work.

533
00:23:11,910 --> 00:23:16,790
So we just always were able to
connect with, uh, droves of,

534
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:18,710
of those folks who were really.

535
00:23:19,649 --> 00:23:24,210
Energetic about what they were
doing, and, um, it was inspiration.

536
00:23:24,210 --> 00:23:27,270
It, it juiced us up and,
and drove the whole thing.

537
00:23:27,270 --> 00:23:32,129
We really didn't do an awful lot of
promotion by, by the early nineties

538
00:23:32,340 --> 00:23:36,570
when you guys, I guess, would've started
seeing it, it was going to 22,000 sign

539
00:23:36,570 --> 00:23:39,840
shops in 74 countries, I believe it was.

540
00:23:40,260 --> 00:23:40,409
Wow.

541
00:23:40,470 --> 00:23:46,320
And uh, and it's an incredible little
niche of really creative, inspired people.

542
00:23:46,679 --> 00:23:49,350
Michael Riley: Did you ever have
any trouble getting content for the

543
00:23:49,350 --> 00:23:52,980
magazine from people, or were people
just beating down your door to submit?

544
00:23:53,639 --> 00:23:54,060
Tom McIltrot: Right.

545
00:23:54,300 --> 00:24:00,270
No, the first three issues we had
to work pretty hard at, and Chester

546
00:24:00,270 --> 00:24:04,860
Cunningham was still alive then, and
he, he said, Tom, you're not gonna.

547
00:24:05,504 --> 00:24:06,225
Information.

548
00:24:06,285 --> 00:24:08,925
There's not enough of the people
who are really enthused about the

549
00:24:08,925 --> 00:24:12,735
work and, and you're not gonna get a
steady flow of articles and material

550
00:24:12,735 --> 00:24:13,875
photos and stuff for articles.

551
00:24:13,875 --> 00:24:15,735
But, but it didn't pan out.

552
00:24:15,764 --> 00:24:17,385
It, it actually went the other way.

553
00:24:17,385 --> 00:24:20,565
And even to this day, I have
the exact opposite problem.

554
00:24:20,955 --> 00:24:24,375
I, I always have to suffer
through sorting out what I'm

555
00:24:24,375 --> 00:24:26,205
going, what I'm going to use now.

556
00:24:26,715 --> 00:24:31,754
Because there's this massive amount
of, um, of work that I'm aware of or

557
00:24:31,754 --> 00:24:34,865
people have shared with me, you know,
that I wanna get in the magazine.

558
00:24:35,295 --> 00:24:38,264
It was murder in the print days,
especially because, you know

559
00:24:38,264 --> 00:24:43,035
what, we, we'd have, um, four to
six pages for a profile and that

560
00:24:43,035 --> 00:24:47,145
was maybe 14, 16 photographs.

561
00:24:47,655 --> 00:24:51,405
And somebody would send you 90
pictures, you know, or 40 pictures

562
00:24:51,915 --> 00:24:54,885
and you'd spread these all out and
it's like, oh no, use this one.

563
00:24:54,885 --> 00:24:56,115
No, we gotta use this one.

564
00:24:56,120 --> 00:25:01,365
So it's like, it was, uh, it was
always tough, but, but man, it was fun.

565
00:25:01,725 --> 00:25:01,875
Michael Riley: Yeah.

566
00:25:01,875 --> 00:25:02,335
That's really cool.

567
00:25:02,545 --> 00:25:06,045
So who, This is, this is probably
a hard, hard question to answer.

568
00:25:06,075 --> 00:25:11,025
What, what was your, your favorite article
You ever, you ever ran in the magazine?

569
00:25:11,295 --> 00:25:12,165
Do you remember?

570
00:25:12,825 --> 00:25:14,565
Or have there been so many
that it's like possible

571
00:25:14,570 --> 00:25:14,805
Tom McIltrot: to change?

572
00:25:14,835 --> 00:25:16,725
Oh, there, yeah, there have been so many.

573
00:25:16,725 --> 00:25:22,065
I, I think the, um, I, I enjoy the
design driven articles the most probably,

574
00:25:22,095 --> 00:25:28,275
cuz I, I think that's what created
Sign Craft was the idea that a sh a an

575
00:25:28,275 --> 00:25:32,025
individual sign person had their own
style and they, they could create this

576
00:25:32,025 --> 00:25:37,725
cool stuff and it gave them something
to sell beyond letters on a board.

577
00:25:38,145 --> 00:25:43,155
You know, there were a lot of guys back
then doing hand lettering, but a lot

578
00:25:43,155 --> 00:25:45,615
of it was just functional kinda stuff.

579
00:25:45,615 --> 00:25:49,595
But, but then when you started running
these creative people like God Almighty,

580
00:25:49,725 --> 00:25:56,835
Bob Boho, Tom Kelly, all the folks in New
Jersey, you know, Glenn Weiss, Gerber.

581
00:25:58,610 --> 00:25:59,940
Quimby names of those.

582
00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:03,930
There's so many of those folks that
really, every one of those articles

583
00:26:03,930 --> 00:26:07,320
became a, a favorite, you know,
it was like all that energy from

584
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,090
those, from those creative people.

585
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:09,540
So

586
00:26:10,950 --> 00:26:13,080
, 
Michael Riley: I, I remember, I think
one of my favorite issues you guys ever

587
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,000
released was, uh, like mid, late nineties.

588
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,810
It was, uh, kind of a spotlight
on all the Jersey guys, and it

589
00:26:17,810 --> 00:26:20,280
was a, you know, a whole issue
about Jersey's style lettering.

590
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,580
And that, I mean, I still draw
inspiration from that to this day.

591
00:26:24,010 --> 00:26:26,190
, you know, that that style has
really like, you know, kind of

592
00:26:26,190 --> 00:26:27,480
stayed back in the nineties.

593
00:26:27,570 --> 00:26:31,290
Uh, there's, right, what a,
what an amazing wealth of,

594
00:26:31,350 --> 00:26:32,430
of knowledge and information.

595
00:26:32,435 --> 00:26:34,890
Just that one, that one
issue had from those guys.

596
00:26:34,890 --> 00:26:35,310
It was, yeah.

597
00:26:35,910 --> 00:26:36,720
Really, really cool.

598
00:26:37,830 --> 00:26:38,640
Hey Tom, I

599
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,380
Peter Kourounis: welcome to
the, welcome to the show.

600
00:26:40,380 --> 00:26:41,820
I just wanted to introduce myself.

601
00:26:41,820 --> 00:26:42,600
We've never met.

602
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:44,190
Big fan.

603
00:26:44,310 --> 00:26:47,910
I was very pleased to see that we
were able to get you onto the show

604
00:26:47,910 --> 00:26:51,900
here, and I'm so happy that you
answered that Mike's last question in

605
00:26:51,900 --> 00:26:55,590
that way, because that's really what
resonated with me and this magazine.

606
00:26:55,595 --> 00:26:57,510
I couldn't wait to talk to you about this.

607
00:26:57,510 --> 00:26:59,610
So it's a good segue into this topic here.

608
00:26:59,790 --> 00:27:01,210
Design I I, I.

609
00:27:01,655 --> 00:27:07,445
For me, the magazine was a godsend
to learning what were, what others

610
00:27:07,445 --> 00:27:08,915
were doing around the country.

611
00:27:08,915 --> 00:27:08,975
Yeah.

612
00:27:09,035 --> 00:27:13,565
Uh, just being introduced to different
artists and different concepts and

613
00:27:13,595 --> 00:27:18,545
ideologies and methodologies of doing
things and what software they did it in.

614
00:27:18,550 --> 00:27:22,715
And this is what was the before and
this is how they got to the after.

615
00:27:22,865 --> 00:27:25,565
Uh, I, that's what I
looked forward to the most.

616
00:27:25,655 --> 00:27:29,525
I don't have a collection of your
magazines that are in storage like

617
00:27:29,525 --> 00:27:35,915
Monk does, but , I kept, I kept a,
a, a large amount of selection in

618
00:27:35,915 --> 00:27:37,895
my lobby of all of my locations.

619
00:27:37,925 --> 00:27:40,145
I, it was a requirement for my franchise.

620
00:27:40,145 --> 00:27:44,135
Almost every one of my locations
had a subscription to your magazine

621
00:27:44,135 --> 00:27:47,585
so that they were in the lobbies
of their locations as well.

622
00:27:47,585 --> 00:27:49,475
And customers loved reading it.

623
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:54,335
I think it was a really great, uh, value
add from, um, from a customer experience.

624
00:27:54,335 --> 00:27:55,415
Like, Hey, this is what.

625
00:27:55,740 --> 00:27:59,400
Maybe you can be inspired by
perusing through this magazine.

626
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:00,330
You like that word, right?

627
00:28:00,330 --> 00:28:00,960
Bryant Gillespie: Perusing

628
00:28:04,020 --> 00:28:06,510
Peter Kourounis: perusing through
that magazine to get some inspiration.

629
00:28:06,510 --> 00:28:06,630
Right.

630
00:28:06,630 --> 00:28:09,780
Because, you know, your average consumer
doesn't really know what they want.

631
00:28:09,785 --> 00:28:14,790
So if you can reference examples of
sign shop owners across the country,

632
00:28:14,820 --> 00:28:18,930
I mean, I used your magazine as, as
an asset, as a tool in my tool belt.

633
00:28:19,110 --> 00:28:19,200
Mm-hmm.

634
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:24,180
, um, just from my own perspective in
being introduced to different designers

635
00:28:24,180 --> 00:28:30,450
with their portfolio and, and, and, and,
and showcasing their work has made me,

636
00:28:30,810 --> 00:28:32,850
has pushed me to be a better designer.

637
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,330
And I'm sure you hear this a
lot, I'm sure you get this a lot.

638
00:28:37,140 --> 00:28:37,770
Can you speak

639
00:28:37,770 --> 00:28:38,460
Tom McIltrot: to that at all?

640
00:28:38,580 --> 00:28:39,390
Yeah, yeah.

641
00:28:39,390 --> 00:28:41,310
We do hear it a lot and
it's always good to hear.

642
00:28:41,310 --> 00:28:45,180
It's, it's, um, you know, Syra,
we were able to be a clearinghouse

643
00:28:45,180 --> 00:28:46,035
for all that good stuff.

644
00:28:46,530 --> 00:28:48,600
That, that's what I think
the significant thing was.

645
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,730
And so many people have told me that.

646
00:28:50,850 --> 00:28:53,700
Uh, and we realized this when
we were starting to get all

647
00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:55,020
these photographs of cool work.

648
00:28:55,544 --> 00:28:56,685
From other people.

649
00:28:57,014 --> 00:29:02,145
When a customer is standing there and is
telling you, you know, I need a sign  to

650
00:29:02,565 --> 00:29:08,355
cut to the chase, it's so good to be able
to show them a few things and narrow that

651
00:29:09,075 --> 00:29:14,595
sign that's in their head down to what
their appeals to them or what they, their

652
00:29:14,595 --> 00:29:16,725
thinking or what's their budget is for.

653
00:29:17,054 --> 00:29:20,865
And so a lot of folks have told us that
they use the magazine that way because

654
00:29:20,865 --> 00:29:24,735
it, it kind of, uh, really when, when
a customer looks through a dozen or

655
00:29:24,735 --> 00:29:28,935
two dozen or three dozen photographs,
something's gonna flip their switch.

656
00:29:28,965 --> 00:29:33,405
And so you can kind of, you know where
to go because, you know, it's like Ken

657
00:29:33,405 --> 00:29:36,645
Malar used to say, when people said
that, you know what, I need a sign.

658
00:29:36,645 --> 00:29:39,735
He said, well, you come to the right
place, I can make you one for $20.

659
00:29:39,735 --> 00:29:41,565
I can make you one for $20,000.

660
00:29:41,774 --> 00:29:45,135
So all we gotta do is figure
out where you are in between.

661
00:29:45,165 --> 00:29:46,605
So, so, yeah.

662
00:29:46,665 --> 00:29:50,774
And, and you know, Peter, you probably
realized this too, from the magazine.

663
00:29:51,165 --> 00:29:56,775
Wasn't it amazing to unearth all
those kind of regional sign styles?

664
00:29:57,135 --> 00:30:01,245
We, we didn't realize there was this going
on at all when we, and, and so for us,

665
00:30:01,245 --> 00:30:05,385
it was an education as we went along to
see the, the Chicago school, you know, of

666
00:30:05,575 --> 00:30:09,345
the, the Chicago designers and to learn
how those guys had gone to California in

667
00:30:09,345 --> 00:30:13,785
their fifties and created another whole
west coast style that was happening there.

668
00:30:14,115 --> 00:30:19,365
The jersey work, the, the, the
traditional carved New England, uh,

669
00:30:20,655 --> 00:30:23,655
car hand carved gold leaf science
that were all over New England.

670
00:30:24,075 --> 00:30:27,345
You know, it's like, I had never seen
one of those in real life until I got

671
00:30:27,375 --> 00:30:31,835
to Vermont, you know, and, and here
they were on every store from a hardware

672
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,245
store to a, you know, to a, b, and b.

673
00:30:34,545 --> 00:30:38,295
But that was really that genre,
you know, there in the Northeast.

674
00:30:38,715 --> 00:30:44,745
And then San Jose, which Mike Stevens,
um, built his whole, um, approach around

675
00:30:45,105 --> 00:30:47,115
that was another whole design school.

676
00:30:47,355 --> 00:30:48,555
So there's probably.

677
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:54,810
Eight or 10 US design schools like that,
I think that, uh, that we could identify.

678
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:55,740
But, um,

679
00:30:56,310 --> 00:30:58,350
Bryant Gillespie: and you know,
did you like the sign historian?

680
00:30:58,350 --> 00:30:58,710
Almost

681
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,980
. 
Tom McIltrot: I just got exposed to a
lot of cool stuff by a lot of inspiring

682
00:31:04,980 --> 00:31:09,240
people and I'm really grateful for that
and, and to have known these, these

683
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,800
folks and, you know, so much of it
back then was definitely not like this.

684
00:31:14,070 --> 00:31:17,850
We, we did it over the phone and
through, uh, you know, handwritten

685
00:31:17,850 --> 00:31:22,200
letters and notes and stacks of
pictures wrapped up in pattern paper

686
00:31:22,350 --> 00:31:24,240
that, uh, that showed up in the mail.

687
00:31:24,300 --> 00:31:29,730
So it was, uh, it was a pretty
vibrant time, especially cuz there

688
00:31:29,730 --> 00:31:32,850
were a lot of, besides that group
of people who were sharing this

689
00:31:32,850 --> 00:31:36,210
stuff, there was armies of folks
like you guys who were hungry for it.

690
00:31:37,290 --> 00:31:38,010
Pre-internet.

691
00:31:38,010 --> 00:31:41,669
There was, it was, there weren't a
lot of places to get that information.

692
00:31:41,879 --> 00:31:42,750
There weren't any really

693
00:31:43,310 --> 00:31:43,510
Yeah.

694
00:31:43,679 --> 00:31:44,760
So, right.

695
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:45,360
Bryant Gillespie: So, right.

696
00:31:45,530 --> 00:31:49,409
And, and they like the, um, Mike
and Pete and I talk about the early

697
00:31:49,415 --> 00:31:54,090
days of like signs 1 0 1 and like
some of the signs specific mm-hmm.

698
00:31:54,090 --> 00:31:58,560
Forms that popped up when the internet
came around and, you know, it was very

699
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,610
much that mentality, like you mentioned
of like, Hey, I've come walking into

700
00:32:02,610 --> 00:32:06,000
these guys painting on a billboard and
I'm like, Hey, I want to get into this.

701
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,310
And everybody's like, no, get outta here.

702
00:32:08,340 --> 00:32:10,139
Like, go get a real job.

703
00:32:10,139 --> 00:32:11,310
Like you don't wanna be a side guy.

704
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,580
So I can't imagine what that was
like before the internet though.

705
00:32:14,670 --> 00:32:14,820
Oh, you,

706
00:32:15,390 --> 00:32:15,660
Tom McIltrot: yeah.

707
00:32:15,690 --> 00:32:15,890
Yeah.

708
00:32:16,500 --> 00:32:21,060
I remember one cool old sign guy in a sign
shop in Pennsylvania putting his arm on my

709
00:32:21,060 --> 00:32:23,370
shoulder and saying, son, go be a barber.

710
00:32:23,820 --> 00:32:24,840
That's where the money is.

711
00:32:27,900 --> 00:32:28,290
So,

712
00:32:29,010 --> 00:32:31,800
Michael Riley: um, in hindsight, do you
wish you would've taken that advice,

713
00:32:33,690 --> 00:32:33,870
? 
Tom McIltrot: No.

714
00:32:33,870 --> 00:32:37,230
Needless to say I'm really happy
with how, how things went here.

715
00:32:37,230 --> 00:32:42,960
I, I, uh, I'm really grateful to have,
to have, you know, bumped into this

716
00:32:42,965 --> 00:32:46,920
and, and all these cool people and,
and to have been able to, to share it

717
00:32:47,490 --> 00:32:48,930
really with folks around the world.

718
00:32:48,930 --> 00:32:53,220
Got a really nice letter, uh, emailed the
other day from some folks in Amsterdam

719
00:32:53,310 --> 00:32:55,930
who have a bunch of the old magazines.

720
00:32:55,930 --> 00:32:56,970
I have no idea where they got 'em.

721
00:32:56,970 --> 00:32:59,790
And, and really loved, you know,
just wrote the sandwich, they loved

722
00:32:59,790 --> 00:33:01,170
it and how much, how helpful it was.

723
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:02,160
And that's pretty cool.

724
00:33:02,310 --> 00:33:02,460
Yeah.

725
00:33:02,460 --> 00:33:02,970
That is cool.

726
00:33:04,245 --> 00:33:07,095
Bryant Gillespie: Everything that
is old once becomes new again.

727
00:33:07,125 --> 00:33:07,365
Yeah.

728
00:33:07,395 --> 00:33:12,465
We put, um, we've got a, a Facebook
community for sign shop owners and at

729
00:33:12,465 --> 00:33:17,355
the other day I posted like, give us
your take on the future of the industry.

730
00:33:17,385 --> 00:33:22,515
And a couple people came back and said,
Hey, like Gold Leaf is coming back, uh,

731
00:33:22,545 --> 00:33:28,515
tra you know, like these, these craft,
the craft of signage is coming back.

732
00:33:28,545 --> 00:33:28,825
Mm-hmm.

733
00:33:29,115 --> 00:33:33,375
, you know, you've had like a front
row seat to the industry over, uh,

734
00:33:33,375 --> 00:33:37,515
the last, you know, 30, 42 years.

735
00:33:37,545 --> 00:33:38,235
40 years, yeah.

736
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:38,805
42.

737
00:33:38,845 --> 00:33:42,105
I was, I was, I was thinking like 1980.

738
00:33:42,110 --> 00:33:43,245
I was like, man, that's, yeah.

739
00:33:43,245 --> 00:33:43,305
Yeah.

740
00:33:43,785 --> 00:33:47,745
Like, like what kind of like big
shifts have you seen, you know,

741
00:33:47,745 --> 00:33:51,555
have you like, oh, hey, this is
like a, a changing of the, the.

742
00:33:52,695 --> 00:33:56,804
Tom McIltrot: Yeah, well, the computer
of course rewrote things for every,

743
00:33:56,865 --> 00:34:00,135
for all of us, not just the sign
industry, but for printing, the

744
00:34:00,135 --> 00:34:01,695
printing industry and, and everything.

745
00:34:01,695 --> 00:34:07,995
But, um, I think there was a, like a
renaissance time there in the seventies,

746
00:34:07,995 --> 00:34:12,404
eighties, nineties when people were
really interested in kind of doing things

747
00:34:12,404 --> 00:34:16,185
with their hands and having a business
where they were kind of in full control.

748
00:34:16,185 --> 00:34:19,605
They, they talked to the customer,
they did the cool design, they car

749
00:34:19,610 --> 00:34:22,935
the letters, they laid the gold
leaf and planted it, you know?

750
00:34:23,085 --> 00:34:26,085
And so, but I think that
that's harder to do now.

751
00:34:26,085 --> 00:34:27,344
There are still folks doing it.

752
00:34:27,585 --> 00:34:31,335
It's, you know, the cost of living and,
and the cost of shop space and, and

753
00:34:31,335 --> 00:34:35,775
everything, the cost to get into the sign
business have all gone up exponentially.

754
00:34:35,775 --> 00:34:38,114
You know, before it was just
a matter of a box of brushes.

755
00:34:38,565 --> 00:34:45,405
And, um, so I think the, the big
difference is that we've, We've gone

756
00:34:45,405 --> 00:34:49,185
to this full digital thing and I
just did an interesting article with

757
00:34:49,185 --> 00:34:53,384
Shane Deford, who's been, who started
out as a sign painter, became a sign

758
00:34:53,384 --> 00:34:58,156
carver because vinyl was coming in,
did sign carving and workshops and

759
00:34:58,161 --> 00:35:00,045
everything up in Canada for years.

760
00:35:00,045 --> 00:35:05,155
Burned out, took a hiatus and, and
has come back to carve incredibly

761
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,035
beautiful signs and probably go some

762
00:35:07,395 --> 00:35:10,185
Michael Riley: workshops again,
just to insert something here,

763
00:35:10,185 --> 00:35:14,025
if anybody listening has never
seen Shane's work, , look him up.

764
00:35:15,285 --> 00:35:17,415
Prepare to have your mind
blown, like talk about, yep.

765
00:35:18,275 --> 00:35:19,575
Unbelievably talented guy.

766
00:35:19,580 --> 00:35:22,605
Like this guy is one of the most
incredible sign makers I've ever seen.

767
00:35:23,430 --> 00:35:23,700
Tom McIltrot: Yep.

768
00:35:24,030 --> 00:35:25,320
Shane darnford.com.

769
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:30,420
Another, another website we could share
with folks to check out is solo signs.com.

770
00:35:30,660 --> 00:35:33,000
Uh, lane Walker's, Reno Sign Shop.

771
00:35:33,030 --> 00:35:34,770
Who, who is just that?

772
00:35:34,775 --> 00:35:38,640
He works alone, works solo hand,
lettered letters, everything.

773
00:35:38,645 --> 00:35:42,390
Some incredible truck work, uh,
is leaving that shop every day.

774
00:35:42,510 --> 00:35:46,630
So there's, uh, there are a lot, and,
you know, it gives me an idea actually

775
00:35:46,635 --> 00:35:51,780
for a cool article sometime is to collect
all the websites of that folks really

776
00:35:51,780 --> 00:35:57,330
should start visiting because there's
just a tremendous amount of, of mind

777
00:35:57,330 --> 00:35:59,340
blowing work there to, to check out.

778
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:04,770
But like I say, I can see it in, in
folks like Shane's career that some

779
00:36:04,770 --> 00:36:07,980
of these folks are coming back to us
or coming back to hand lettering and

780
00:36:07,985 --> 00:36:13,230
carving and whatnot, and they found a
niche again with part of the business

781
00:36:13,235 --> 00:36:17,550
community that, that values that like,
you know, tattoo parlors, barbershops.

782
00:36:17,955 --> 00:36:20,805
Cigar shops, coffee shops, pubs.

783
00:36:21,254 --> 00:36:25,365
There, there's a market for
creative handmade signs again.

784
00:36:25,754 --> 00:36:29,745
And, and if, if somebody's really
into more of a production mode and

785
00:36:29,745 --> 00:36:32,365
they're, they're into, you know,
to do, wanna do printed or do wanna

786
00:36:32,595 --> 00:36:36,165
do electrical, there's, there's
so many opportunities there too.

787
00:36:36,555 --> 00:36:37,964
So, Mike,

788
00:36:38,625 --> 00:36:40,424
Bryant Gillespie: what do you
like, what's your take on this man?

789
00:36:40,455 --> 00:36:44,955
Like, I, you know, we, we've beat the
dead horse a couple times of where

790
00:36:44,955 --> 00:36:48,645
like, this is why you got in the
industry was to do the nice signs.

791
00:36:48,649 --> 00:36:51,524
Like do you think they're, do
you see them, Megan, a comeback?

792
00:36:52,334 --> 00:36:52,814
Michael Riley: I do.

793
00:36:52,814 --> 00:36:56,234
I I think that when I, when I got
into the industry in the, in the mid

794
00:36:56,234 --> 00:37:01,095
nineties, I, I think the, um, you know,
that was kind of right as the computer.

795
00:37:01,475 --> 00:37:04,365
And, and vinyl cutters and everything,
were becoming pretty mainstream.

796
00:37:04,365 --> 00:37:06,225
I mean, they pretty attainable
for every sign shop.

797
00:37:06,585 --> 00:37:11,115
And that, that definitely shifted
the, the trajectory I think, of

798
00:37:11,115 --> 00:37:12,815
the industry as a, as a whole.

799
00:37:12,815 --> 00:37:13,175
Mm-hmm.

800
00:37:13,255 --> 00:37:15,825
, we talked about this a little bit
with, with Dan Antonelli, uh, when we

801
00:37:15,825 --> 00:37:19,375
had him on the show about, you know,
there's, there's very little barrier

802
00:37:19,545 --> 00:37:21,705
of entry to the industry, right?

803
00:37:21,705 --> 00:37:24,855
I mean, if you've got 30, 40 grand,
you can buy a plotter and apl a

804
00:37:24,855 --> 00:37:27,705
printer and you know, computer
and you're in the sign industry.

805
00:37:27,765 --> 00:37:31,845
And it's funny, you know, Tom just said,
you know, back then and you 50 bucks in

806
00:37:31,845 --> 00:37:33,075
brushes and you're in the industry, right?

807
00:37:33,075 --> 00:37:36,075
But the barrier there was you gotta
know how to use those brushes.

808
00:37:36,165 --> 00:37:36,675
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

809
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:37,485
That's feel like, yeah.

810
00:37:37,535 --> 00:37:37,775
Yeah.

811
00:37:38,355 --> 00:37:39,945
That's a huge, that's, that's a funny,

812
00:37:39,945 --> 00:37:40,245
Michael Riley: yeah.

813
00:37:40,245 --> 00:37:41,565
You didn't say . Yeah.

814
00:37:41,595 --> 00:37:42,176
I mean there's a big

815
00:37:42,181 --> 00:37:42,615
Bryant Gillespie: difference there.

816
00:37:43,465 --> 00:37:45,015
is pretty easy to spot, right?

817
00:37:45,535 --> 00:37:45,695
, 
Michael Riley: right?

818
00:37:45,885 --> 00:37:46,125
Yeah.

819
00:37:46,125 --> 00:37:48,765
Well that guy doesn't know how to use,
like, you really spot the guy that

820
00:37:48,765 --> 00:37:50,985
doesn't know how to use his, his role
in, but you definitely can spot the

821
00:37:50,985 --> 00:37:52,785
guy who doesn't , you know, lettering.

822
00:37:53,715 --> 00:37:54,615
Tom McIltrot: Um, very true.

823
00:37:55,215 --> 00:37:57,885
Michael Riley: And, um, so
I got into the industry.

824
00:37:58,455 --> 00:38:01,365
And wanted to do the types of
signs that Seine Craft featured.

825
00:38:01,495 --> 00:38:04,455
I mean that, I mean this, that
was like pornography for me.

826
00:38:04,575 --> 00:38:05,775
. Like, I can't put this down.

827
00:38:05,775 --> 00:38:07,935
I can't, I, I have to make this stuff.

828
00:38:07,935 --> 00:38:09,255
I have to learn how to make this stuff.

829
00:38:09,335 --> 00:38:13,335
And, and, and I did, and I found out
really quickly that at least where I was

830
00:38:13,335 --> 00:38:15,285
the market for it was, was dying out.

831
00:38:15,290 --> 00:38:19,214
It was really hard to sell hand carved,
high-end gold leaf signs and Yeah.

832
00:38:19,214 --> 00:38:21,944
Uh, and Dayton, Ohio, where
everybody really wanted going

833
00:38:21,944 --> 00:38:23,935
outta business banners and Yeah.

834
00:38:23,940 --> 00:38:29,145
Um, I, I think that now 20 plus years
into that whole quote unquote digital

835
00:38:29,145 --> 00:38:32,924
revolution in the sign industry, I think
people have finally started to wake up

836
00:38:32,930 --> 00:38:37,665
and realize that these are, these are only
tools and they don't really do anything

837
00:38:37,665 --> 00:38:40,065
other than what you, you tell them to do.

838
00:38:40,065 --> 00:38:43,154
And I think that people are starting
to recognize that, yeah, technically

839
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,214
it's a sign, it says my business
name, but it's not, there's no artist,

840
00:38:46,395 --> 00:38:47,625
there's no, there's no craft to that.

841
00:38:47,625 --> 00:38:48,404
There's no art in that.

842
00:38:48,415 --> 00:38:51,735
And I think people are really
wanting to see a return to, to that.

843
00:38:51,735 --> 00:38:54,525
And a lot of the signs that I'm designing,
especially in the, in the last few

844
00:38:54,525 --> 00:38:56,865
years, have really taken a shift towards.

845
00:38:57,419 --> 00:39:01,500
Craft in, in it, in, in wanting
to see something that's not just

846
00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:04,169
a, a flat digital print slapped on
a piece of dive on or something.

847
00:39:04,169 --> 00:39:04,259
Mm-hmm.

848
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,129
, I think it's still got a ways to go
and I, I do think that, and, and the

849
00:39:08,129 --> 00:39:11,160
post you're talking about on the,
the Facebook group, Brian, um, I,

850
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:12,750
I, I mentioned this is in a comment.

851
00:39:12,750 --> 00:39:16,799
I think that as weird as it sounds, it's
really easy for all of us to, to kind of.

852
00:39:17,415 --> 00:39:22,635
Talk down on the current, you know, young
generation, generation Z I think it is.

853
00:39:22,635 --> 00:39:26,775
Whatever, it's , . But, but you
know, those kids are, they grew up

854
00:39:26,775 --> 00:39:28,935
with, they, they don't, they don't
have any reference other than the

855
00:39:28,935 --> 00:39:30,915
internet and, and, and they're Yeah.

856
00:39:31,185 --> 00:39:32,415
In that younger generation.

857
00:39:32,685 --> 00:39:33,285
It's interesting.

858
00:39:33,285 --> 00:39:37,485
They're recognizing the value in
handmade things that I think a couple

859
00:39:37,485 --> 00:39:41,445
generations prior to them don't quite
see because that we, we experienced that

860
00:39:41,445 --> 00:39:44,865
transition from handmade to digital,
and so we're, we're almost blind to it.

861
00:39:44,865 --> 00:39:47,145
But this young generation, they,
they didn't experience what

862
00:39:47,145 --> 00:39:48,165
it was like before digital.

863
00:39:48,165 --> 00:39:50,385
So they see this and there's
a, there's a massive nostalgia

864
00:39:50,390 --> 00:39:51,555
value to them, like mm-hmm.

865
00:39:51,635 --> 00:39:52,305
, look, this is so cool.

866
00:39:52,305 --> 00:39:53,145
It's before my time.

867
00:39:53,145 --> 00:39:56,535
This hand painted, hand carved gold
leaf sign is so much cooler Yeah.

868
00:39:56,540 --> 00:39:57,675
Than this digitally signed.

869
00:39:57,975 --> 00:39:59,955
So I think it's, it's coming full circle.

870
00:40:00,045 --> 00:40:03,315
I think that vinyl and digital are
starting to settle into their place and

871
00:40:03,315 --> 00:40:07,860
not be, you know, and just become seen
as, You know, a tool or a means to an end.

872
00:40:07,860 --> 00:40:11,190
And I, and I think, and I'm seeing
a lot of people really being willing

873
00:40:11,195 --> 00:40:16,320
and, and interested and paying a
premium for that quality handmade look.

874
00:40:16,370 --> 00:40:18,810
And I, and I hope in the next
10 years, that really becomes

875
00:40:18,810 --> 00:40:19,860
the dominant thing again.

876
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:21,360
I don't know if it will, but

877
00:40:21,390 --> 00:40:22,080
Tom McIltrot: Yeah, that'd be cool.

878
00:40:22,500 --> 00:40:23,160
Yeah, it'd be cool.

879
00:40:23,220 --> 00:40:26,400
But, you know, you, you already see
it in, I think like in restaurant

880
00:40:26,550 --> 00:40:30,390
interiors and restaurants and,
and pubs, interiors, coffee shop,

881
00:40:30,390 --> 00:40:34,950
interiors, there's a lot of interest
in using signs as like decor mm-hmm.

882
00:40:35,190 --> 00:40:38,759
and, um, and they want 'em
handmade, you know, for that stuff.

883
00:40:38,830 --> 00:40:39,110
Mm-hmm.

884
00:40:39,330 --> 00:40:42,720
. And so that, I think there's, there's
some interesting trends there.

885
00:40:43,130 --> 00:40:43,620
Yeah,

886
00:40:43,930 --> 00:40:44,420
Michael Riley: yeah.

887
00:40:44,425 --> 00:40:44,640
Yeah.

888
00:40:44,700 --> 00:40:45,270
Absolutely.

889
00:40:45,390 --> 00:40:49,140
It's, it's interesting how it's, it's gone
from such a utilitarian thing to actually

890
00:40:49,140 --> 00:40:50,820
being a desirable almost piece of art.

891
00:40:50,820 --> 00:40:51,660
I mean, it is, it is art.

892
00:40:51,660 --> 00:40:51,840
Mm-hmm.

893
00:40:52,500 --> 00:40:53,670
, depending on how you define art.

894
00:40:53,670 --> 00:40:55,830
And I think people are finally
starting to recognize that.

895
00:40:55,830 --> 00:40:58,680
Again, I think it was true in the
past, and I think it'll be true again.

896
00:40:59,205 --> 00:40:59,985
I hope anywhere.

897
00:41:00,255 --> 00:41:00,615
Tom McIltrot: Yeah.

898
00:41:00,615 --> 00:41:01,154
I'm with you.

899
00:41:01,485 --> 00:41:01,755
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

900
00:41:01,785 --> 00:41:02,384
So, hey.

901
00:41:02,390 --> 00:41:02,654
Hey, Tom.

902
00:41:02,654 --> 00:41:05,535
We've talked about, hey, kind of
the current state of affairs, like,

903
00:41:05,535 --> 00:41:07,035
and you know, where we wanted to go.

904
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,735
Where do you, what's your take on
the future of the sign industry?

905
00:41:09,795 --> 00:41:11,625
Like where do you, where do
you see everything going?

906
00:41:11,895 --> 00:41:12,015
Hmm.

907
00:41:12,585 --> 00:41:16,455
Tom McIltrot: Well, I think really to
echo what Michael's saying, I think

908
00:41:16,895 --> 00:41:21,165
there's, as long as the economy stays
strong, there's gonna be a market

909
00:41:21,165 --> 00:41:23,595
for creative, creative science.

910
00:41:23,595 --> 00:41:27,615
And that gives a leg in for the
folks who want to have that type of

911
00:41:28,185 --> 00:41:30,105
focus for their, for their business.

912
00:41:30,375 --> 00:41:35,565
There's no doubt it's easier in like
tourist markets or urban markets.

913
00:41:35,714 --> 00:41:38,145
It's like Mike was saying, Dayton, Ohio.

914
00:41:38,444 --> 00:41:41,924
I came from Western PA north
of Pittsburgh, rust Belt City.

915
00:41:42,194 --> 00:41:45,525
You know, it was very hard to get
anybody to turn loose of any money.

916
00:41:45,765 --> 00:41:45,855
Mm-hmm.

917
00:41:46,095 --> 00:41:47,265
for a sandblasted sign.

918
00:41:48,045 --> 00:41:51,375
But when I got back to Fort Myers,
when we got back to Fort Myers, is

919
00:41:51,375 --> 00:41:55,485
that real estate development exploding
and the beaches becoming much more,

920
00:41:55,485 --> 00:41:57,780
um,  with a lot more tourist traffic.

921
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,650
It was easier to get, um, to
get folks to, you know, write

922
00:42:01,650 --> 00:42:03,390
a check for something cool.

923
00:42:03,780 --> 00:42:08,430
So it's, it's, I feel bad for folks
who are in a market where it just isn't

924
00:42:08,430 --> 00:42:10,470
happening yet, or maybe never will happen.

925
00:42:10,530 --> 00:42:14,730
So they'll have to kind of sprinkle those
cool signs that they love doing and with

926
00:42:14,730 --> 00:42:17,550
the, the more functional stuff they do.

927
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:23,610
But at the same time, even, even the
everyday, you know, bread and butter

928
00:42:23,610 --> 00:42:25,680
sciences, the design side of it can keep.

929
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,590
Can keep you enthused and, and energetic.

930
00:42:28,590 --> 00:42:32,250
You know, a lot of the sign painters
I worked with in the early days

931
00:42:32,250 --> 00:42:35,760
there, they, they really never had
an opportunity even to do gold leaf.

932
00:42:35,790 --> 00:42:38,730
I mean, there was, nobody was
doing gold when I was 20 years old.

933
00:42:38,850 --> 00:42:41,880
I actually had to learn it from
a, an old retired sign painter

934
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,010
that I read an article about
'em in the, in the newspaper.

935
00:42:44,015 --> 00:42:47,670
And I went and pestered him and,
and got him to show me how to,

936
00:42:47,970 --> 00:42:50,220
how to glassgold do glassgold.

937
00:42:50,250 --> 00:42:53,700
And, um, and he kind of, it was
kinda like a novelty for him.

938
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,600
And, uh, his name was Chet Board
and he said, uh, it's like, you

939
00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:58,650
know, why do you wanna do this?

940
00:42:58,650 --> 00:43:01,380
Nobody's gonna ever guild
their glass windows.

941
00:43:02,130 --> 00:43:06,150
Glass will guild glass again on
windows, because companies move

942
00:43:06,150 --> 00:43:08,910
too often, you know, and, and
names change too, too often.

943
00:43:08,910 --> 00:43:11,970
He said, you know, before if you
let it, a bank window, it stayed

944
00:43:11,970 --> 00:43:15,150
there until the window broke
or the, the lettering fell off.

945
00:43:15,150 --> 00:43:17,040
You know, the, the bank
was just gonna be there.

946
00:43:17,940 --> 00:43:18,840
So that turned around.

947
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,500
I mean, look at all the cool, uh,
barbershop and tattoo glassgold

948
00:43:22,830 --> 00:43:24,630
masterpieces that are being done.

949
00:43:25,230 --> 00:43:27,600
And I hope everybody's getting
paid for their time, but I know

950
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,180
they're having a good time doing
it because we can tell, right?

951
00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:31,590
We can tell when we look at their work.

952
00:43:32,009 --> 00:43:35,130
But, uh, I think there'll
be, there'll be some of that.

953
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,340
I think personally, I think the
emphasis is gonna have to go

954
00:43:38,340 --> 00:43:44,549
back and continue to go back to
design because really in most shop

955
00:43:44,549 --> 00:43:46,259
situations, that's what we're selling.

956
00:43:46,380 --> 00:43:50,940
Especially with computer
equipment, kind of it . Yeah.

957
00:43:50,940 --> 00:43:51,299
Right.

958
00:43:51,750 --> 00:43:55,110
Compu computers level the field
as far as the production side.

959
00:43:55,110 --> 00:44:00,720
And so if you stay with just how
fast and how cheap you can produce

960
00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:03,629
signs, It's, it's, it's mud wrestling.

961
00:44:03,629 --> 00:44:04,620
It's no fun there.

962
00:44:04,740 --> 00:44:08,970
And there's always gonna be somebody at
the flea market or in their garage who is

963
00:44:08,970 --> 00:44:13,020
totally inexperienced or maybe has other
source of income who will do it for less.

964
00:44:13,319 --> 00:44:16,440
So competing on that edge is always messy.

965
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,430
Whereas if you have, if you, you know,
beef up your design skills and you have,

966
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:25,440
have something to offer on the design
side that the customer can see with, with

967
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,399
your portfolio or on your website or your
Instagram page, it's like, Hey, this guy

968
00:44:29,399 --> 00:44:33,330
or this gal, whoever it is can do, can
do what I need and give me that edge.

969
00:44:33,330 --> 00:44:37,890
I think there's more business owners
who are kinda looking for that now, and

970
00:44:37,890 --> 00:44:41,700
there's still folks who are gonna come in
and say, this is what my nephew designed.

971
00:44:41,910 --> 00:44:42,960
This is what I want.

972
00:44:43,350 --> 00:44:47,009
And I really do want the letters right
out to the very edge of the board.

973
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,670
So, and you have to decide whether
you're in the position to say

974
00:44:50,879 --> 00:44:53,759
thanks, but there's a shop across
town who'll take care of you.

975
00:44:54,089 --> 00:44:54,540
You know?

976
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,500
Or like somebody told me recently,
just close my eyes and click print.

977
00:45:01,154 --> 00:45:05,145
Michael Riley: I, I'm glad that you,
you said that about design, Tom.

978
00:45:05,145 --> 00:45:09,134
It's something that I'm, I'm, every time
I get the opportunity to, to preach that

979
00:45:09,140 --> 00:45:11,955
to people I, in this industry, I, I do.

980
00:45:12,015 --> 00:45:16,185
I think, and I, I think with, with
the rise of computers and, and digital

981
00:45:16,189 --> 00:45:18,794
technology, I think a lot of people
in this industry have lost sight of

982
00:45:18,794 --> 00:45:22,154
the fact that we are, we are in the
design industry, we're in the marketing

983
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,785
industry, and our customers don't
care about how the signs are made.

984
00:45:25,785 --> 00:45:26,984
They care about how it looks.

985
00:45:27,375 --> 00:45:27,495
Mm-hmm.

986
00:45:28,004 --> 00:45:31,484
, you know, and I, I think that, you
know, like, I, like I just said a

987
00:45:31,490 --> 00:45:34,484
minute ago with, with, with that
rise of technology, it's allowed

988
00:45:34,484 --> 00:45:37,634
people to get into the industry
that don't have the design chops to.

989
00:45:38,355 --> 00:45:40,845
You know, to produce what the
customers are, are wanting.

990
00:45:40,845 --> 00:45:44,205
And, and I, I think the, the late nineties
and the early two thousands were kind of a

991
00:45:44,205 --> 00:45:47,505
sad time for the industry where everything
was, you know, whatever, you know, font

992
00:45:47,505 --> 00:45:49,214
bundle came with sign lab or whatever.

993
00:45:49,315 --> 00:45:49,924
Mm-hmm.

994
00:45:50,305 --> 00:45:51,085
. 
Tom McIltrot: But I, I think

995
00:45:52,904 --> 00:45:53,355
, 
Bryant Gillespie: sorry, did I?

996
00:45:53,355 --> 00:45:56,654
Aerial, VEA, , uh, what's

997
00:45:56,654 --> 00:45:57,495
Michael Riley: the, what's the other one?

998
00:45:57,615 --> 00:45:58,365
Olive Nord.

999
00:45:58,845 --> 00:46:00,194
Everything was antique Olive.

1000
00:46:01,065 --> 00:46:01,335
Yeah.

1001
00:46:01,335 --> 00:46:03,165
I Or Euro style.

1002
00:46:03,165 --> 00:46:03,825
That was a good one too.

1003
00:46:04,065 --> 00:46:04,365
Yeah.

1004
00:46:04,365 --> 00:46:04,424
Yeah.

1005
00:46:05,174 --> 00:46:06,884
If you wanted something
modern and contemporary.

1006
00:46:07,125 --> 00:46:11,775
I, yeah, I, I think that, and I think
that's, that's something that Se Craft

1007
00:46:11,775 --> 00:46:15,495
did such a great job wa of, uh, was,
was putting that first, you know, all

1008
00:46:15,495 --> 00:46:19,605
the other sign industry magazines, they,
you know, all of 'em kind of touch on

1009
00:46:19,605 --> 00:46:22,634
design, but really they're, they're,
they're much more manufacturing and,

1010
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:23,685
and business driven, which is fine.

1011
00:46:23,685 --> 00:46:24,944
And that's all super important obviously.

1012
00:46:24,950 --> 00:46:28,035
But yeah, I think you, you know, you
did such a great job of, of making.

1013
00:46:28,650 --> 00:46:31,500
You're making that point that the,
you know, design is the front line

1014
00:46:31,500 --> 00:46:33,270
of what we're selling and it's the
first thing people see and it's

1015
00:46:33,270 --> 00:46:35,640
the last thing they react to after
they, their signs on their building.

1016
00:46:35,750 --> 00:46:40,560
And, and the emphasis has to be, be that,
and, you know, even like Bob Boho did,

1017
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:42,330
I'm saying that right, Bob Boho behing.

1018
00:46:42,390 --> 00:46:42,630
Yeah.

1019
00:46:42,690 --> 00:46:44,160
That's mean.

1020
00:46:44,700 --> 00:46:45,810
They were, they were amazing.

1021
00:46:45,815 --> 00:46:50,810
I mean, this, this guy taught me to think
about how I'm laying out a, you know, a

1022
00:46:50,810 --> 00:46:52,690
for sale banner or a, you know mm-hmm.

1023
00:46:52,775 --> 00:46:56,670
a job site sign or something, and put,
and not just straight line black and red

1024
00:46:56,675 --> 00:47:00,540
hellvetica, but, but actually put some
serious thought into the layout on a, on

1025
00:47:00,545 --> 00:47:02,820
a, you know, a four by eight site sign.

1026
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:03,690
Mm-hmm.

1027
00:47:03,770 --> 00:47:07,110
and, and like that's, that was
such an eye-opener for me that, you

1028
00:47:07,110 --> 00:47:10,050
know, it doesn't have to be boring
and plain and, and black and white.

1029
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:10,350
Yeah.

1030
00:47:10,350 --> 00:47:11,460
And look like every other sign.

1031
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,460
Tom McIltrot: And you know, the cool
thing about design is once you get those

1032
00:47:14,465 --> 00:47:18,130
chops, once you get those fundamentals,
you can, um, you gotta jump in.

1033
00:47:18,930 --> 00:47:19,800
You got a question, Pete?

1034
00:47:19,830 --> 00:47:20,160
Yeah, I'm

1035
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:20,700
Peter Kourounis: sorry guys.

1036
00:47:20,790 --> 00:47:21,390
Hey, Tom.

1037
00:47:21,395 --> 00:47:22,770
It's very nice to meet you, sir.

1038
00:47:22,770 --> 00:47:25,440
I gotta jump out, but I just
wanted to tell you, I just

1039
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:26,730
wanted to ask you one question.

1040
00:47:26,970 --> 00:47:27,300
Sure.

1041
00:47:27,580 --> 00:47:31,710
Uh, and then I'll, I'll have to jump out,
but I, I can't wait to hear the answer.

1042
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:33,060
You mentioned the design.

1043
00:47:33,060 --> 00:47:38,040
Mike and I raised our fists in
the air in celebration for that.

1044
00:47:38,190 --> 00:47:38,310
You

1045
00:47:38,610 --> 00:47:40,020
Bryant Gillespie: know,
it's, it's a matter

1046
00:47:40,020 --> 00:47:41,160
Tom McIltrot: of where

1047
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:44,640
Peter Kourounis: can our listeners, the
people that are listening to this podcast

1048
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:46,440
today, where, where can they go to?

1049
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,060
In your experience from the resources,
you know, where can they go to

1050
00:47:51,060 --> 00:47:53,010
like propel their design skills?

1051
00:47:53,130 --> 00:47:56,740
If design is what we're selling,
what, what would your response

1052
00:47:56,745 --> 00:47:59,280
be to someone that says, how can
I take my design team and like

1053
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:01,590
elevate what we're currently doing?

1054
00:48:01,860 --> 00:48:02,220
Tom McIltrot: Yeah.

1055
00:48:02,850 --> 00:48:05,190
Yeah, that's a tough question,
Peter, because there's

1056
00:48:05,190 --> 00:48:06,780
really not one single source.

1057
00:48:07,210 --> 00:48:10,320
Probably the closest thing we have
to it is Mike Steven's book, uh,

1058
00:48:10,350 --> 00:48:14,340
mastering Layout, which, but it's
a little bit of a complex re read.

1059
00:48:14,345 --> 00:48:18,660
It's, it's a, it's a challenging book
to read sometimes that the principles

1060
00:48:18,665 --> 00:48:20,880
are there, the fundamentals, and then.

1061
00:48:21,245 --> 00:48:24,965
I guess the, the next best source
I can think are all the things that

1062
00:48:24,965 --> 00:48:28,535
people have shared in se craft, you
know, all the, the kind of, and you

1063
00:48:28,535 --> 00:48:32,075
know, the nice thing about the articles
were they were just like nuggets.

1064
00:48:32,075 --> 00:48:35,225
You know, you didn't have to
sit down and digest a whole

1065
00:48:35,225 --> 00:48:37,115
encyclopedia of, of information.

1066
00:48:37,115 --> 00:48:40,295
You could get one thing
like Bob say ma uh, an art.

1067
00:48:40,325 --> 00:48:43,535
All the articles Bob wrote
about on simplicity and, and,

1068
00:48:43,715 --> 00:48:45,545
and on we're on using script.

1069
00:48:45,605 --> 00:48:49,955
And I think it's best to learn those
things one little bite at a time.

1070
00:48:50,135 --> 00:48:54,785
We've been doing a, a series of
articles on the, on the site lately

1071
00:48:54,845 --> 00:48:58,475
on individual aspects of, of design.

1072
00:48:58,475 --> 00:49:02,855
Like last week I think it was, um,
uh, use using copy blocks to message

1073
00:49:02,855 --> 00:49:04,745
blocks to break up and control copy.

1074
00:49:04,745 --> 00:49:06,755
A few weeks before that
we did negative space.

1075
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,325
And so those kind of, you know,
learning those little, learning

1076
00:49:10,330 --> 00:49:11,705
about it a little bit at a time.

1077
00:49:12,300 --> 00:49:17,160
Is, I think, easier than trying to
take it all in and, um, and then

1078
00:49:17,530 --> 00:49:18,780
critique your own work against it.

1079
00:49:19,020 --> 00:49:20,100
Uh, that's always hard.

1080
00:49:20,100 --> 00:49:25,740
You know, there probably need to be
more workshops for, by outstanding

1081
00:49:25,740 --> 00:49:30,000
designers on how design works
and learning the fundamentals.

1082
00:49:30,180 --> 00:49:33,870
You know, there's a, there's a bit of
a design drain on the industry when,

1083
00:49:33,870 --> 00:49:38,700
uh, when computers came along because
we lost some people to, uh, like web

1084
00:49:38,700 --> 00:49:42,420
design and graphic design where there
was a, you make a better living over

1085
00:49:42,420 --> 00:49:44,250
there and do some cool stuff still.

1086
00:49:44,910 --> 00:49:46,470
And so we lost some of that.

1087
00:49:46,475 --> 00:49:50,190
But I do think there's a lot of
folks who have returned and, um,

1088
00:49:50,370 --> 00:49:53,730
and are doing interesting work that
we can still pick their brains and,

1089
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,040
and see why they do what they do.

1090
00:49:56,310 --> 00:50:01,020
Michael Riley: So hopefully this isn't
like a, a painful question  to answer.

1091
00:50:01,025 --> 00:50:02,070
I apologize if it is.

1092
00:50:02,850 --> 00:50:05,100
What's your, how do you feel about
the state of publishing right now?

1093
00:50:05,130 --> 00:50:07,890
Obviously you've moved,
signed Craft online.

1094
00:50:07,895 --> 00:50:08,170
Mm-hmm.

1095
00:50:08,250 --> 00:50:09,960
, which is painful for me.

1096
00:50:11,340 --> 00:50:12,900
Honestly, like I, I, I hated to see that.

1097
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,090
Like I said, I mean, just the
tactile quality of the magazine

1098
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:16,710
was, was a huge part of appeal.

1099
00:50:16,890 --> 00:50:18,480
How, how do you feel about that?

1100
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:24,330
Tom McIltrot: How well you can
imagine after 42 years of print,

1101
00:50:24,780 --> 00:50:29,780
print publishing, what, what a shift
it was for us and it, it cannot,

1102
00:50:29,970 --> 00:50:31,440
we cannot call it the same mm-hmm.

1103
00:50:31,710 --> 00:50:34,830
there, it's a drastically different
way to deliver information.

1104
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:39,150
The, uh, you know, before it was a
matter of designing spreads and, and

1105
00:50:39,150 --> 00:50:43,050
designing the whole magazine so that
as you went through it, you found

1106
00:50:43,050 --> 00:50:47,310
what you needed and maybe you learned
something that you were, was unexpected,

1107
00:50:47,670 --> 00:50:48,870
you know, in the next article.

1108
00:50:48,870 --> 00:50:52,530
And then we had that, we always tried
to maintain a mix of like, some 3D

1109
00:50:52,530 --> 00:50:55,920
work and some truck lettering and some
flat signs so that there was a little

1110
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:57,240
bit for, of everything for everybody.

1111
00:50:57,240 --> 00:50:59,910
That's, that's impossible
to do on, on the web.

1112
00:50:59,910 --> 00:51:03,990
You know, we, we do our two or three
articles a week and we can't really.

1113
00:51:04,335 --> 00:51:07,274
Choreograph like you can
with a, a print magazine.

1114
00:51:07,335 --> 00:51:08,835
To me, print will always be king.

1115
00:51:08,835 --> 00:51:12,134
It was a, it was a, uh, a great
way to deliver information.

1116
00:51:12,140 --> 00:51:14,835
It's a tremendously portable
source of information.

1117
00:51:14,835 --> 00:51:18,464
You can take it out on the porch with a
cup of coffee and fold down corners Yes.

1118
00:51:18,524 --> 00:51:20,145
Of the pages and come back to Yes.

1119
00:51:20,535 --> 00:51:24,435
And, you know, I can never, half the time
I can't find the article that, you know,

1120
00:51:24,435 --> 00:51:28,015
I, I'm plundering through my history
sometimes looking for something I mm-hmm.

1121
00:51:28,095 --> 00:51:28,935
I saw a week ago.

1122
00:51:29,024 --> 00:51:32,984
But, but with a print magazine, like
I say, fold a corner down, put a

1123
00:51:32,984 --> 00:51:34,694
post-it on it, come back to it later.

1124
00:51:35,115 --> 00:51:40,725
So, and, and I hear this that I hear all
day long, a lot of our readers are older

1125
00:51:40,725 --> 00:51:46,154
readers who have been kind of begrudgingly
drugged along into the digital world.

1126
00:51:46,154 --> 00:51:51,045
So, um, but um, you
know, it is what it is.

1127
00:51:51,315 --> 00:51:53,865
It's it for us to see that.

1128
00:51:54,045 --> 00:51:59,640
I mean, even the printers, the printing
companies that we used, For you, which

1129
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:04,380
were big Midwestern web printers who
printed and mailed small circulation

1130
00:52:04,380 --> 00:52:08,340
magazine like ours from the center of the
country to take advantage of the postal

1131
00:52:08,340 --> 00:52:09,690
rates from coast to coast and stuff.

1132
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:14,010
Most of them have folded or
merged with other companies.

1133
00:52:14,130 --> 00:52:16,260
It, it's a literal bloodbath mm-hmm.

1134
00:52:16,740 --> 00:52:19,170
in the publishing industry
that that's happened.

1135
00:52:19,260 --> 00:52:21,900
And, and it's not, it's not gonna stop.

1136
00:52:21,900 --> 00:52:22,950
It's not gonna come back.

1137
00:52:23,130 --> 00:52:28,200
There are successful special
interest magazines that are, people

1138
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,500
are doing now that are more, they
call 'em Bookazine more or less.

1139
00:52:31,500 --> 00:52:35,070
They, they don't really go out a style
outta date with a cover date so much.

1140
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:37,170
They're on a single
topic maybe and whatnot.

1141
00:52:37,170 --> 00:52:40,170
And those will probably be
around, you know, they'll,

1142
00:52:40,175 --> 00:52:41,760
they'll, those will survive.

1143
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:46,110
But as far as the serial publication
where somebody's banging it out every

1144
00:52:46,110 --> 00:52:49,290
other month or every month though,
that's getting harder and harder to do.

1145
00:52:49,530 --> 00:52:53,340
And, uh, some things you just miss
terribly, like, where's the cover picture?

1146
00:52:53,925 --> 00:52:55,665
Where's the cover photo, you know?

1147
00:52:55,725 --> 00:52:55,905
Mm-hmm.

1148
00:52:56,145 --> 00:53:00,525
. So very often, you know, we get, somebody
will send us a link to some photos and

1149
00:53:00,525 --> 00:53:03,435
we'll flip through there and you know,
Dennis will look over my shoulder and

1150
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:05,595
say, oh, there's a cover, you know?

1151
00:53:05,745 --> 00:53:06,065
Yeah.

1152
00:53:06,070 --> 00:53:06,975
But there is no cover

1153
00:53:09,075 --> 00:53:10,185
. 
Bryant Gillespie: It's
definitely not the same.

1154
00:53:10,215 --> 00:53:11,085
You know, I was, yeah.

1155
00:53:11,685 --> 00:53:16,395
I was talking to Mike the other day
and I was like, I was, I was like,

1156
00:53:16,725 --> 00:53:19,935
my wife is a deer has hit her car.

1157
00:53:19,940 --> 00:53:20,925
The car is totaled.

1158
00:53:20,925 --> 00:53:23,175
And we'd been car shopping
all day, but, Hmm.

1159
00:53:23,505 --> 00:53:27,855
I had got a, I got a physical
catalog from a sign supplier that

1160
00:53:27,855 --> 00:53:32,145
was like 150, 200 pages thick,
and I thought those were dead.

1161
00:53:32,175 --> 00:53:34,995
And it was like, okay, like at
least there's one bright spot.

1162
00:53:35,475 --> 00:53:35,805
Yeah.

1163
00:53:35,900 --> 00:53:40,365
. Because along with Sign Craft,
like looking through all the, the

1164
00:53:40,365 --> 00:53:44,385
catalogs of like sign suppliers
was like how you found it out about

1165
00:53:44,385 --> 00:53:45,585
new products and things like that.

1166
00:53:45,585 --> 00:53:45,705
Right.

1167
00:53:45,705 --> 00:53:47,235
Like, oh, hey, I've never tried this.

1168
00:53:47,925 --> 00:53:51,435
This particular vinyl
or, or whatever before.

1169
00:53:51,615 --> 00:53:52,335
So there,

1170
00:53:52,335 --> 00:53:53,175
Tom McIltrot: there's no doubt.

1171
00:53:53,175 --> 00:53:56,085
We, we made a tremendous amount
of progress thanks to the

1172
00:53:56,085 --> 00:53:59,175
internet and, and how we can share
information and connect everything.

1173
00:53:59,475 --> 00:54:03,195
But at the same time, some really
good things were lost in the shuffle.

1174
00:54:03,435 --> 00:54:07,725
You know, some, the tactical
experience, the, the way to, to be

1175
00:54:07,725 --> 00:54:10,155
able to refer back to stuff is easy.

1176
00:54:10,425 --> 00:54:15,795
And, you know, in print magazines,
the articles often took on a life

1177
00:54:15,795 --> 00:54:20,106
of their own because people returned
to them and they also referred to

1178
00:54:20,111 --> 00:54:21,645
them in future articles and stuff.

1179
00:54:21,855 --> 00:54:23,295
And you can make that connection.

1180
00:54:23,300 --> 00:54:27,105
Digital information doesn't
have that kind of life.

1181
00:54:27,405 --> 00:54:32,385
You know, really the, the articles we
do now, kind of in a few weeks, they're

1182
00:54:32,715 --> 00:54:35,995
kind of just back there in the archives,
you know, on the webpage and, yeah.

1183
00:54:36,780 --> 00:54:41,280
So you don't have that kind of reaching
back to like, somebody sent me a picture

1184
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:46,560
of their, of their stack of sign crafts
a year or so ago and, uh, they were

1185
00:54:46,890 --> 00:54:52,590
dog-eared beyond recognition . They,
they were, you could barely tell that

1186
00:54:52,590 --> 00:54:55,590
they, I mean, some of these were from
back when we were Saddles station, you

1187
00:54:55,590 --> 00:54:59,250
know, had Staples in and, and they,
the staples had long since given way

1188
00:54:59,250 --> 00:55:01,710
and it was just this pile of, of pages.

1189
00:55:01,980 --> 00:55:05,070
But man, I thought when I saw man,
somebody had a really good time

1190
00:55:05,070 --> 00:55:06,450
here looking through all those.

1191
00:55:06,630 --> 00:55:06,690
Yeah.

1192
00:55:06,695 --> 00:55:07,140
That's awesome.

1193
00:55:07,140 --> 00:55:10,980
They got some, swipe some ideas
and sold some jobs and That's cool.

1194
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:11,460
We, what's

1195
00:55:11,460 --> 00:55:14,700
Michael Riley: cool about magazines
that I don't think a website or

1196
00:55:14,700 --> 00:55:16,800
online magazine will ever be able to.

1197
00:55:17,250 --> 00:55:20,400
Accomplish is when you get a, a
copy of Seine Craft, you know, a

1198
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:23,640
printed version of Seine Craft,
you're gonna read it cover to cover.

1199
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:27,089
You're gonna look at every single page
and there's gonna be articles in there

1200
00:55:27,089 --> 00:55:29,730
that you might not otherwise have
read, but because it's right there,

1201
00:55:29,730 --> 00:55:30,629
you're like, oh yeah, that's cool.

1202
00:55:30,720 --> 00:55:31,259
That's interesting.

1203
00:55:31,259 --> 00:55:32,850
Jersey style, semi-truck letter.

1204
00:55:32,879 --> 00:55:36,569
I'll never letter a semi-truck in New
Jersey, but I'm still gonna read the

1205
00:55:36,569 --> 00:55:39,270
article cause the pictures are pretty
and I'm gonna learn something from it.

1206
00:55:39,759 --> 00:55:43,140
And I, you know, I think when that
kind of information moves online,

1207
00:55:44,129 --> 00:55:47,879
it's not, it nothing forces you to
stop and pause and, and, and absorb

1208
00:55:47,879 --> 00:55:49,049
that information for a second.

1209
00:55:49,049 --> 00:55:52,290
You're gonna click on what appeals
to you, what you're looking for, and

1210
00:55:52,290 --> 00:55:54,569
you're gonna, the rest of it's just
gonna kind of become background noise.

1211
00:55:55,049 --> 00:55:57,960
And I, I think that losing that, I think.

1212
00:55:59,370 --> 00:56:03,180
Saddest thing for me because
that's how I learned so much.

1213
00:56:03,180 --> 00:56:06,570
Wasn't like, okay, I'm only gonna read
this article on this issue, but I'm

1214
00:56:06,570 --> 00:56:07,560
gonna read the entire damn article.

1215
00:56:07,565 --> 00:56:07,650
Yes.

1216
00:56:07,890 --> 00:56:10,860
The issue from front to back
multiple times, like you said,

1217
00:56:10,860 --> 00:56:12,060
and then mine looked the same way.

1218
00:56:12,060 --> 00:56:15,870
Like mine are, a lot of mine are
just destroyed because I've gone

1219
00:56:15,870 --> 00:56:18,300
back and re-read them cover to
cover every time, cuz I'm looking

1220
00:56:18,300 --> 00:56:21,030
for one article, but I'm gonna read
the whole thing when I open it up.

1221
00:56:21,330 --> 00:56:21,510
Yes.

1222
00:56:21,570 --> 00:56:27,360
And, and that just, it, it soak soaks
into your brain and in a way that online

1223
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:29,400
content just never will be able to.

1224
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:31,890
And, and that's what I
think bums out the most.

1225
00:56:31,900 --> 00:56:32,140
Mike

1226
00:56:32,820 --> 00:56:33,300
. 
Tom McIltrot: Absolutely.

1227
00:56:33,305 --> 00:56:33,510
Mike.

1228
00:56:33,510 --> 00:56:39,000
That, that was so well said, . That was,
uh, that's worth, that's worth watching

1229
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:44,910
this podcast over for what you just said
because the, um, it, it's actually, and

1230
00:56:44,915 --> 00:56:48,990
I've read some about this, I've read
a lot about it, that it's changing how

1231
00:56:48,995 --> 00:56:53,250
we read and how we think, you know,
online information changes, how we read.

1232
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:54,360
You'll notice.

1233
00:56:55,035 --> 00:56:56,835
Things have gotten shorter and shorter.

1234
00:56:57,075 --> 00:57:01,185
You know, a lot of people are
saying 200 words is, is like

1235
00:57:01,185 --> 00:57:02,654
the two minute YouTube video.

1236
00:57:02,985 --> 00:57:05,685
You know, they say, you know, if
your, if your YouTube video runs over

1237
00:57:05,685 --> 00:57:09,134
two minutes, you know, you lose x
number of percentage of your viewers.

1238
00:57:09,465 --> 00:57:15,255
So the attention span is getting
smaller and, and it forces

1239
00:57:15,255 --> 00:57:17,805
people to write differently.

1240
00:57:17,810 --> 00:57:18,125
Mm-hmm.

1241
00:57:18,205 --> 00:57:20,045
and to kind of jam all.

1242
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:24,600
Information early enough in the article
that, that, rather than have, have

1243
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:28,020
it like a meal where you could give
somebody their little appetizer, then

1244
00:57:28,020 --> 00:57:31,080
a little bit later serve on the main
course and finish up with dessert.

1245
00:57:31,379 --> 00:57:35,879
You kind of gotta slop it all on one
plate now in the first 200 words and

1246
00:57:35,879 --> 00:57:39,720
try to get 'em to, uh, and hope they'll
stay with you for the rest of it.

1247
00:57:40,169 --> 00:57:40,500
Brian,

1248
00:57:41,370 --> 00:57:41,879
Bryant Gillespie: bulleted?

1249
00:57:41,879 --> 00:57:42,390
Yes.

1250
00:57:42,450 --> 00:57:42,870
Yes.

1251
00:57:43,350 --> 00:57:47,970
Well, I just, from my own experience,
I'll tell you, like I, I've written

1252
00:57:47,970 --> 00:57:52,980
for several industry magazines at this
point, but it's, it is for all online

1253
00:57:52,984 --> 00:58:01,830
content and very frustrating to try and
jam a topic into 500 words, especially

1254
00:58:02,220 --> 00:58:06,359
like something that you're passionate
about and you feel like there's.

1255
00:58:07,635 --> 00:58:09,135
Not enough information out there.

1256
00:58:09,165 --> 00:58:10,785
It's very difficult to do.

1257
00:58:10,785 --> 00:58:14,405
But that's, like you said, that's the
attention span at this point, right?

1258
00:58:14,410 --> 00:58:16,065
It has to be bulleted.

1259
00:58:16,305 --> 00:58:21,555
You've got three, 400 words to, to
teach somebody something, but you, how

1260
00:58:21,555 --> 00:58:23,265
do you, you can't, how do you do that?

1261
00:58:23,265 --> 00:58:23,685
Tom McIltrot: Mm-hmm.

1262
00:58:23,885 --> 00:58:24,045
, right?

1263
00:58:24,075 --> 00:58:27,975
You know, and when you're writing for
SEARCHs, you've gotta repeat phrases

1264
00:58:28,335 --> 00:58:30,045
so many times and all that stuff.

1265
00:58:30,045 --> 00:58:33,405
It, it, it really changes the
tone of the, of the writing

1266
00:58:33,405 --> 00:58:34,515
and the feel of the writing.

1267
00:58:35,175 --> 00:58:39,945
So yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's
a big loss to in that regard.

1268
00:58:40,255 --> 00:58:42,375
Michael Riley: So, so
Tom, what can we all do?

1269
00:58:42,705 --> 00:58:48,405
What can I do to get
sign craft back in print?

1270
00:58:48,885 --> 00:58:50,715
Well, whatever happened,
can we make it happen?

1271
00:58:51,525 --> 00:58:52,965
, can we start a kick, kick Kickstarter

1272
00:58:52,965 --> 00:58:53,385
Tom McIltrot: or something here?

1273
00:58:55,395 --> 00:58:56,005
I dunno.

1274
00:58:56,010 --> 00:58:58,515
I have had so many requests like that.

1275
00:58:58,725 --> 00:59:00,485
Like, I, I don't know.

1276
00:59:00,485 --> 00:59:04,485
I, we've thought about revisiting
a, a revisiting print as either

1277
00:59:04,485 --> 00:59:06,105
like an annual or a semi-annual.

1278
00:59:07,535 --> 00:59:11,475
Magazine and, um, so there, there's
always the possibility for one

1279
00:59:11,475 --> 00:59:13,035
thing, we, we love doing them.

1280
00:59:13,365 --> 00:59:15,495
So that, that's the greatest impetus.

1281
00:59:15,944 --> 00:59:21,165
And I, I, I believe that there are enough
of us out there that value print that,

1282
00:59:21,464 --> 00:59:23,325
that we could, could get an audience.

1283
00:59:23,625 --> 00:59:28,515
So it, it's, it's not out outside the
real of possibility, but it's, it's, let's

1284
00:59:28,515 --> 00:59:30,855
Bryant Gillespie: set up a
pre-order right after this market

1285
00:59:31,185 --> 00:59:32,835
for the annual edition cycle.

1286
00:59:33,615 --> 00:59:36,615
, 
Michael Riley: honestly, like if you
even just did like an annual, you

1287
00:59:36,620 --> 00:59:40,535
know, 300 page bound book, you know,
something with a hard cover mm-hmm.

1288
00:59:40,615 --> 00:59:41,805
, that was like a collector's item.

1289
00:59:42,245 --> 00:59:44,595
I, I would totally pay several
hundred dollars for that.

1290
00:59:44,595 --> 00:59:46,004
Like, without even thinking about it.

1291
00:59:46,004 --> 00:59:47,384
I mean, it, it would, well, thank you.

1292
00:59:47,384 --> 00:59:48,435
And I'm not alone in that.

1293
00:59:48,435 --> 00:59:52,185
I know that a lot of people would, and I
or I, I'd pony up a couple hundred bucks

1294
00:59:52,294 --> 00:59:56,955
a month, a year for a subscription to, you
know, a, a quarterly publication as well.

1295
00:59:56,975 --> 01:00:00,495
I mean, I, I just uhhuh , I, I think
there's a lot of people out there are

1296
01:00:00,495 --> 01:00:04,004
that are just absolutely desperate for
that and, and, and, and missing that.

1297
01:00:04,004 --> 01:00:07,845
And I, I know like, It's a tiny industry,
and no matter how much we're all willing

1298
01:00:07,845 --> 01:00:12,735
to pay, it'll, it'll never overcome the
hurdle of, of, you know, the current

1299
01:00:12,735 --> 01:00:17,325
state of publishing and how expensive and
difficult it would be to, to, to recreate

1300
01:00:17,330 --> 01:00:19,065
a magazine like SE Craft, you know?

1301
01:00:19,095 --> 01:00:21,555
But man, I wish we, I
I wish you would do it.

1302
01:00:23,924 --> 01:00:27,825
. . 
Tom McIltrot: Well, it would be fun,
and like I say, I, I, I'll, uh, I'll

1303
01:00:27,825 --> 01:00:29,535
keep it on the table here for us.

1304
01:00:29,540 --> 01:00:35,565
So, , um, the, uh, you know, the, the,
there is, there's just something about,

1305
01:00:35,565 --> 01:00:39,375
and I mean, all of us had special
interest magazines that we got back

1306
01:00:39,375 --> 01:00:43,485
in those days if you fished or if
you were a photographer or whatnot.

1307
01:00:44,025 --> 01:00:48,585
And so waiting for the, that copy of
that magazine, whether it was SE Craft

1308
01:00:48,585 --> 01:00:53,280
or Popular Photography, Um, you know,
outdoor sports, American sportsman.

1309
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:57,090
So waiting for the magazine was part
of the, the deal, you know, getting,

1310
01:00:57,180 --> 01:01:01,470
getting the mail that early in the
month and expecting to find your, your

1311
01:01:01,470 --> 01:01:05,340
magazine there, and then you just kinda
scrolled it away and save some time

1312
01:01:05,340 --> 01:01:06,930
that night to start flipping through it.

1313
01:01:06,930 --> 01:01:11,670
So, yeah, it'd be fun to, to,
to help revive some of that.

1314
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:15,090
Michael Riley: W well, if you ever
decide to and you need some extra

1315
01:01:15,090 --> 01:01:18,360
manpower, you, you let us know
because we will be there with bells

1316
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:20,500
on to help you, or at least I will.

1317
01:01:20,500 --> 01:01:20,900
That's pretty cool.

1318
01:01:20,900 --> 01:01:22,460
I guess I won't speak for, but I'll,

1319
01:01:22,460 --> 01:01:25,170
Bryant Gillespie: yeah,
no, uh, that's cool.

1320
01:01:25,230 --> 01:01:27,780
Yeah, I've got, I've got three
little girls to think about, but

1321
01:01:27,810 --> 01:01:33,450
yeah, my dad, well you guys are
on the, the other side of Florida.

1322
01:01:33,450 --> 01:01:36,120
My dad's in Pensacola, but, um, yeah.

1323
01:01:37,154 --> 01:01:38,085
I think we can make it work.

1324
01:01:38,384 --> 01:01:38,745
I'm down.

1325
01:01:38,825 --> 01:01:39,305
Yeah.

1326
01:01:40,134 --> 01:01:40,625
. 
Tom McIltrot: Yeah.

1327
01:01:40,625 --> 01:01:41,384
I'll move to Florida.

1328
01:01:41,535 --> 01:01:42,194
Michael Riley: Yeah, absolutely.

1329
01:01:42,194 --> 01:01:42,435
If, if

1330
01:01:44,295 --> 01:01:46,634
, 
Bryant Gillespie: if Mike is gonna
go to Florida, you know, we're doing

1331
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:50,475
something now because Mike hates
the, the bombing weather down there.

1332
01:01:51,765 --> 01:01:53,865
Michael Riley: not a big Florida
person, but, but I would totally

1333
01:01:54,015 --> 01:01:55,964
do it in a heartbeat if, if
that opportunity ever take.

1334
01:01:55,964 --> 01:01:56,325
Okay.

1335
01:01:57,404 --> 01:02:00,285
Tom McIltrot: Well I can tell you a
hurricane, a hurricane like that last

1336
01:02:00,285 --> 01:02:04,065
one will, will make a lot of people,
not Florida people, , especially some

1337
01:02:04,065 --> 01:02:06,435
of the, those of us who are here for it.

1338
01:02:06,435 --> 01:02:10,545
So , but maybe the Florida
reputation has been seriously

1339
01:02:10,549 --> 01:02:12,795
tarnished there with that, but, so

1340
01:02:14,174 --> 01:02:14,625
Michael Riley: for sure.

1341
01:02:15,134 --> 01:02:18,555
Bryant Gillespie: Well, uh, this feels
like a, a pretty good closing point guys.

1342
01:02:18,585 --> 01:02:24,225
Um, Tom, is there anything you want to
say to the audience before we sign off?

1343
01:02:24,464 --> 01:02:26,415
Like any advice you want to give, like,

1344
01:02:27,134 --> 01:02:29,085
Tom McIltrot: I guess I do, I guess I do.

1345
01:02:29,089 --> 01:02:33,165
There's, there's a secret that I've
heard over and over again in, in the

1346
01:02:33,345 --> 01:02:40,155
from sign people about, Being successful
at this and, and that is show up.

1347
01:02:40,425 --> 01:02:43,305
You'd be surprised how many people
I've told that we published a

1348
01:02:43,305 --> 01:02:47,895
magazine for sign people whose
their comeback was sign people.

1349
01:02:47,955 --> 01:02:51,915
I called four sign shots before I
could get one to, to come over or,

1350
01:02:52,155 --> 01:02:55,485
or you know, I went and talked to
a guy, he never called me back.

1351
01:02:55,755 --> 01:02:59,925
You know, that, that is bad for
business and it's bad for the industry.

1352
01:03:00,285 --> 01:03:04,905
And so really, you know,
customer service is, is critical.

1353
01:03:05,115 --> 01:03:09,915
And, um, you know, the whole underpromise
and over-deliver concept, the shops

1354
01:03:09,915 --> 01:03:14,925
that I know who are most successful,
they nail it on the customer relations

1355
01:03:15,435 --> 01:03:20,685
and that idea of delivering stuff
on time or ahead of time and it

1356
01:03:20,685 --> 01:03:22,665
contributes to their, to their success.

1357
01:03:22,935 --> 01:03:24,075
So I.

1358
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:25,380
Everybody.

1359
01:03:25,380 --> 01:03:27,930
That's a, a little secret I think
that I've heard over and over again.

1360
01:03:27,930 --> 01:03:31,980
That could, um, could work for in
everybody's favor and you can charge

1361
01:03:31,980 --> 01:03:36,450
more when you do that, when you, when
you meet people's needs, I think now more

1362
01:03:36,450 --> 01:03:40,920
than ever, when you satisfy customers and
meet their needs, you can charge for it.

1363
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:41,910
Bryant Gillespie: So, absolutely.

1364
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:42,400
Yeah.

1365
01:03:42,405 --> 01:03:42,720
Yeah.

1366
01:03:42,780 --> 01:03:45,990
That's, that's so simple, so understated.

1367
01:03:45,990 --> 01:03:50,190
But it's like hugely important what
you just said, like, yeah, kinda show

1368
01:03:50,190 --> 01:03:53,940
up, answer the phones, call people
back, do what you said you're gonna do.

1369
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:54,160
Yeah.

1370
01:03:54,490 --> 01:03:55,350
It's so, yeah, it goes

1371
01:03:55,350 --> 01:03:58,410
Tom McIltrot: without saying kinda,
it's kinda like, look back to the, to

1372
01:03:58,410 --> 01:04:01,380
when you were first in business, you
know, and, and the phone wasn't ringing

1373
01:04:01,385 --> 01:04:05,550
and, and somebody did call all the way
across town for a sign for a hotdog shop.

1374
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:09,900
You dropped everything and burned it
over there, and then you put a little

1375
01:04:09,905 --> 01:04:13,860
extra juice in the design and, and
you got it over there and installed

1376
01:04:13,865 --> 01:04:18,060
it on a Saturday, and, and they loved
it and they were happy with you even

1377
01:04:18,060 --> 01:04:20,340
if it was a mediocre job at the time.

1378
01:04:20,730 --> 01:04:23,520
But that kind of, you
intrigued customers like that.

1379
01:04:24,404 --> 01:04:26,174
Make some customers forever for life.

1380
01:04:26,595 --> 01:04:27,045
Absolutely.

1381
01:04:27,145 --> 01:04:27,705
Michael Riley: That's well

1382
01:04:27,705 --> 01:04:27,785
Bryant Gillespie: said.

1383
01:04:27,785 --> 01:04:28,145
Absolutely.

1384
01:04:28,575 --> 01:04:29,685
Mike, any pardon shots?

1385
01:04:30,375 --> 01:04:32,745
Michael Riley: I, I can't say it
any better than that, honestly.

1386
01:04:32,750 --> 01:04:35,475
Like that's, that's a
brilliant piece of advice.

1387
01:04:35,515 --> 01:04:38,745
I, I think we should probably do a
podcast episode on, you know, on, on

1388
01:04:38,745 --> 01:04:39,944
that topic, to be honest with you.

1389
01:04:40,005 --> 01:04:42,884
I think it's something that we've
not touched on, um, too aggressively

1390
01:04:42,890 --> 01:04:46,964
yet, and maybe we can get Tom back
to  to, to chat about that, that

1391
01:04:46,964 --> 01:04:47,805
end of the industry a little bit.

1392
01:04:47,895 --> 01:04:49,634
No, I, I, I, I totally agree.

1393
01:04:49,634 --> 01:04:53,355
I mean, I think showing up
is 90% of the battle and

1394
01:04:53,924 --> 01:04:54,105
Tom McIltrot: Yeah.

1395
01:04:54,165 --> 01:04:59,565
You know, I, I can tell you too that
I, I have, and all of us, bill, Dennis,

1396
01:04:59,565 --> 01:05:02,115
John, we, we have the utmost respect.

1397
01:05:02,850 --> 01:05:08,069
For signed people because they have a
really unique business, a really unique

1398
01:05:08,069 --> 01:05:13,350
hole to fill in the economic picture,
and they don't give very many kudos.

1399
01:05:13,500 --> 01:05:17,220
Usually they get dragged
on or, um, neglected.

1400
01:05:17,670 --> 01:05:21,930
But, um, to me, they're some of the
most interesting creative people in

1401
01:05:21,930 --> 01:05:27,270
the business world, and they, they do
more to for how a community looks and

1402
01:05:27,270 --> 01:05:30,990
feels than almost everything else,
maybe even more than the architecture.

1403
01:05:31,140 --> 01:05:36,569
So, like I say, my, my hat is always
off to every sign person who's, who's

1404
01:05:36,575 --> 01:05:40,109
out there slugging it out and, uh,
and putting up with all the bologna

1405
01:05:40,109 --> 01:05:41,430
that, that they have to deal with.

1406
01:05:41,430 --> 01:05:45,120
And they're, and they're
still churning out cool stuff.

1407
01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:46,440
Michael Riley: Yeah,

1408
01:05:46,740 --> 01:05:47,220
Bryant Gillespie: definitely.

1409
01:05:47,310 --> 01:05:47,730
Definitely.

1410
01:05:47,940 --> 01:05:48,150
Yeah.

1411
01:05:48,150 --> 01:05:55,571
That's a, that's a good parting
line, . I, I, Tom, uh, I, I, I don't

1412
01:05:55,576 --> 01:06:00,089
even know if I need to ask this, but
how can, uh, anybody who was interested

1413
01:06:00,089 --> 01:06:02,009
learn more about you and sign craft.

1414
01:06:02,759 --> 01:06:03,150
Tom McIltrot: Oh, okay.

1415
01:06:03,150 --> 01:06:05,490
Yeah, just hop over to sy craft.com.

1416
01:06:05,590 --> 01:06:06,090
Dot com.

1417
01:06:06,660 --> 01:06:07,020
. Yep.

1418
01:06:07,710 --> 01:06:08,460
Pretty easy.

1419
01:06:09,020 --> 01:06:11,670
Bryant Gillespie: If, if nobody,
if, if somebody is listening and

1420
01:06:11,670 --> 01:06:13,680
doesn't know sign craft shame on you.

1421
01:06:14,009 --> 01:06:17,070
Number one, . Get over
to Sy Craft right now.

1422
01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:18,210
Check it out.

1423
01:06:18,975 --> 01:06:21,509
. Um, do you guys have any,
like, back issues for sale?

1424
01:06:21,540 --> 01:06:24,120
Like, uh, or those are we do we

1425
01:06:24,120 --> 01:06:27,180
Tom McIltrot: have about, uh,
about, I think it's just over half

1426
01:06:27,180 --> 01:06:28,470
of the issues still available in.

1427
01:06:29,775 --> 01:06:30,134
Oh, nice.

1428
01:06:30,765 --> 01:06:31,095
Great.

1429
01:06:31,095 --> 01:06:34,515
Re uh, resource, you know, I, I've
been meaning to put together some

1430
01:06:34,515 --> 01:06:38,685
bundled, uh, copies either by the
year or something, some packages

1431
01:06:38,985 --> 01:06:40,305
and Oh yeah, definitely work.

1432
01:06:40,785 --> 01:06:40,965
Yeah.

1433
01:06:40,965 --> 01:06:43,305
That way we could work the shipping
down to where it was affordable

1434
01:06:43,305 --> 01:06:45,255
because they are expensive to ship.

1435
01:06:45,255 --> 01:06:48,134
But, we'll, we'll work on that and
get something on the site maybe

1436
01:06:48,140 --> 01:06:52,185
where folks can get a, you know,
get 20 issues that they can get back

1437
01:06:52,185 --> 01:06:55,275
through back, go back through and
snag some of these great articles.

1438
01:06:55,275 --> 01:06:59,035
Cuz so often when I look back through
these articles, these magazines,

1439
01:06:59,035 --> 01:07:03,015
I see that this great stuff that
people have shared, it knocks me out.

1440
01:07:03,015 --> 01:07:07,335
I, I think that folks wrote articles
and gave away really good, solid

1441
01:07:07,335 --> 01:07:10,875
ideas and, and information and it's
a shame that they're, that they're

1442
01:07:10,875 --> 01:07:12,134
just sitting on a shelf somewhere.

1443
01:07:12,134 --> 01:07:13,305
So, but yeah, we'll

1444
01:07:13,305 --> 01:07:13,725
Bryant Gillespie: look into that.

1445
01:07:13,725 --> 01:07:16,395
You guys should definitely do
that because it's, you know, a

1446
01:07:16,395 --> 01:07:19,455
sign craft to me was always about
those nuggets that you mentioned.

1447
01:07:19,845 --> 01:07:19,935
Mm-hmm.

1448
01:07:20,174 --> 01:07:23,535
like, hey, I, if I could just get
one nugget out of the magazine.

1449
01:07:24,285 --> 01:07:28,485
Like I, I, that's going to, I, I could
use that nugget for a lifetime, so.

1450
01:07:28,605 --> 01:07:28,785
Mm-hmm.

1451
01:07:29,055 --> 01:07:30,255
. Yeah, for sure.

1452
01:07:30,945 --> 01:07:33,825
That's a, that's a good point to stop.

1453
01:07:33,825 --> 01:07:34,305
Tom.

1454
01:07:34,575 --> 01:07:34,905
Wow.

1455
01:07:35,265 --> 01:07:36,195
Thanks for coming on.

1456
01:07:36,225 --> 01:07:38,085
This has been great to have you on.

1457
01:07:38,115 --> 01:07:43,095
Um, I think I, I, one of my goals
at the start of the podcast was to

1458
01:07:43,095 --> 01:07:46,605
have you on as a guest, so I could
definitely check that box now.

1459
01:07:47,115 --> 01:07:50,115
I appreciate you, uh, Mike, anything

1460
01:07:50,115 --> 01:07:50,475
Michael Riley: else?

1461
01:07:50,924 --> 01:07:52,305
I'm just geeking out over here.

1462
01:07:52,305 --> 01:07:56,654
I don't think I've smiled this much
in throughout an entire episode.

1463
01:07:56,660 --> 01:08:02,834
Like honestly, I don't, it sounds kind
of insane to say, but like you've,

1464
01:08:03,165 --> 01:08:06,334
you and, and what you've done for
the industry, I mean, it's al it

1465
01:08:06,575 --> 01:08:07,964
is always been inspirational to me.

1466
01:08:08,055 --> 01:08:11,115
So it's been, it's, it's really an
honor to have you here and to meet

1467
01:08:11,115 --> 01:08:13,785
you and, and we really appreciate
your time, really, really do well.

1468
01:08:13,785 --> 01:08:14,325
Thanks so much.

1469
01:08:14,325 --> 01:08:16,604
I, we'd love to have you back
if Don't, don't be a stranger.

1470
01:08:16,665 --> 01:08:17,894
I mean, we, okay.

1471
01:08:18,085 --> 01:08:21,675
Glad to more information and
knowledge and, and stories in your

1472
01:08:21,675 --> 01:08:24,404
head, I can imagine than just about
anybody else in this industry.

1473
01:08:24,404 --> 01:08:28,125
And I feel like we should, you know, make
it like a quarterly thing or something.

1474
01:08:28,125 --> 01:08:30,465
Just have Tom on and tell his
stories from back in the day.

1475
01:08:30,705 --> 01:08:31,934
like, how cool would that be,

1476
01:08:33,915 --> 01:08:36,014
? 
Tom McIltrot: Well, thank you
so much and thank Peter for me.

1477
01:08:36,484 --> 01:08:40,965
I, I really appreciate the invitation
and, and I really enjoyed, uh,

1478
01:08:40,969 --> 01:08:42,495
hanging out with y'all today.

1479
01:08:42,495 --> 01:08:45,285
That, that's, uh, It's a pretty
good feeling to hear all those

1480
01:08:45,285 --> 01:08:48,075
good things about Seine Craft,
so I'm pretty well juiced for

1481
01:08:48,075 --> 01:08:50,135
the, for the next quarter, so I'm

1482
01:08:50,595 --> 01:08:50,955
Bryant Gillespie: excellent.

1483
01:08:52,184 --> 01:08:52,484
Great.

1484
01:08:52,995 --> 01:08:54,734
Well, Tom, we appreciate you.

1485
01:08:54,894 --> 01:08:55,375
Thank

1486
01:08:55,375 --> 01:08:55,455
Tom McIltrot: you.

1487
01:08:55,455 --> 01:08:56,015
Thanks, Tom.

1488
01:08:56,015 --> 01:08:56,135
All right.

1489
01:08:56,135 --> 01:08:56,265
Take care.

1490
01:08:56,269 --> 01:08:57,345
Thank you guys for everybody.

1491
01:08:57,350 --> 01:08:57,644
Take care.

1492
01:08:57,915 --> 01:08:58,215
All right.

1493
01:08:58,220 --> 01:08:58,575
We'll see you.

1494
01:08:58,575 --> 01:08:59,015
Bye-bye.

1495
01:08:59,144 --> 01:08:59,625
You're welcome.

1496
01:08:59,865 --> 01:09:03,434
Bryant Gillespie: All right,
so that is the episode, Mike.

1497
01:09:03,915 --> 01:09:06,615
Rapid takeaways, rapid fire takeaways.

1498
01:09:06,615 --> 01:09:09,045
What, what are, what are
we closing this one with?

1499
01:09:09,045 --> 01:09:11,564
I, I feel like that one
was a killer episode.

1500
01:09:11,564 --> 01:09:11,654
I

1501
01:09:11,654 --> 01:09:14,415
Michael Riley: don't, I don't even
know where to, where to go with

1502
01:09:14,415 --> 01:09:15,434
this one, to be honest with you.

1503
01:09:15,434 --> 01:09:21,524
Yeah, that was just, that was a like a,
Icing on the cake of my career to talk

1504
01:09:21,524 --> 01:09:22,964
to him and, and interview him on that.

1505
01:09:22,964 --> 01:09:23,835
It was, it was really cool.

1506
01:09:23,835 --> 01:09:26,354
I mean, he is definitely one
of my idols in the industry and

1507
01:09:26,654 --> 01:09:29,865
just a, a wealth of knowledge and
history in this, in this industry.

1508
01:09:29,904 --> 01:09:32,234
I, I think, uh, it's cool
to hear some of his stories.

1509
01:09:32,234 --> 01:09:35,054
I like, I really would love to have him
back on and hear more, cuz I, I think

1510
01:09:35,054 --> 01:09:38,384
that guy could probably talk for, for
hours and hours about his experiences

1511
01:09:38,384 --> 01:09:39,734
and the people he knows in the industry.

1512
01:09:39,795 --> 01:09:41,054
But yeah, it was, it was awesome.

1513
01:09:41,115 --> 01:09:43,785
Take away, I think he reinforced
something that I'm always preaching

1514
01:09:43,785 --> 01:09:47,835
about and that is, we're selling, we're
selling design first and foremost.

1515
01:09:47,894 --> 01:09:51,944
We're selling marketing and, and you
know, if you're not putting your emphasis

1516
01:09:51,944 --> 01:09:55,214
on putting out quality designs out
there, you're hurting your business.

1517
01:09:55,214 --> 01:09:57,375
You're hurting your customer's
business in the industry as a whole,

1518
01:09:57,375 --> 01:09:58,245
Bryant Gillespie: a hundred percent.

1519
01:09:58,575 --> 01:10:02,714
Like if you're not doing the
work, if you're not acting like a

1520
01:10:02,714 --> 01:10:07,605
professional, like a, like it or
not, when you take a job from a

1521
01:10:07,605 --> 01:10:12,884
customer, you are now responsible for
whatever outcome they're looking for.

1522
01:10:12,884 --> 01:10:16,155
Whether that's driving more customers
to their business with a sign.

1523
01:10:16,740 --> 01:10:21,719
Or promoting awareness for their
cause, or, uh, even just driving

1524
01:10:21,719 --> 01:10:25,080
signups to the peewee football
team, whate, whatever that is.

1525
01:10:25,410 --> 01:10:29,009
Like, you've gotta rise to
the occasion and, and make it

1526
01:10:29,009 --> 01:10:29,370
Michael Riley: happen.

1527
01:10:29,669 --> 01:10:30,000
So, yeah.

1528
01:10:30,660 --> 01:10:32,940
And it's a, it's a topic that's
come up more than once on this,

1529
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:33,809
you know, with our guests.

1530
01:10:33,809 --> 01:10:36,870
You know, Dan Antonelli obviously
we've mentioned that was definitely

1531
01:10:36,870 --> 01:10:38,639
a big, you know, big pusher of that.

1532
01:10:38,639 --> 01:10:41,280
And it's interesting to hear that
continue to come up time and time

1533
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:43,410
again, which I think says something.

1534
01:10:43,415 --> 01:10:44,639
I hope people are paying
attention to that.

1535
01:10:44,639 --> 01:10:46,980
And I also really like that
Tom closed it out by saying,

1536
01:10:46,980 --> 01:10:48,599
just show up, answer the phone.

1537
01:10:48,719 --> 01:10:49,080
You know?

1538
01:10:49,290 --> 01:10:49,469
Right.

1539
01:10:49,469 --> 01:10:50,910
Do the work, . Yeah.

1540
01:10:50,915 --> 01:10:51,120
Yeah.

1541
01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:52,769
Which is hard for some sign people to do.

1542
01:10:52,830 --> 01:10:54,690
I mean, we've all been there, but Yeah.

1543
01:10:54,690 --> 01:10:57,240
I What a, what a great conversation.

1544
01:10:57,299 --> 01:10:58,169
I really enjoyed that.

1545
01:10:58,769 --> 01:10:59,070
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

1546
01:10:59,160 --> 01:10:59,969
Yeah, I did as well.

1547
01:10:59,969 --> 01:11:05,879
Uh, you know, to me it was more about a,
just taking nuggets from that conversation

1548
01:11:05,879 --> 01:11:09,990
and taking nuggets from Sy Craft, like
that's a, that really resonated with me,

1549
01:11:10,049 --> 01:11:15,405
you know, over the years I feel like,
When, when I've tried to like, take on

1550
01:11:15,405 --> 01:11:19,455
too much at, at one time or like, Hey, I'm
gonna learn this, or I'm gonna learn that.

1551
01:11:19,905 --> 01:11:20,745
I always struggled.

1552
01:11:21,135 --> 01:11:25,365
So, you know, just commit to getting
a little bit better each day.

1553
01:11:25,755 --> 01:11:29,925
And that was, that's what was great about
getting the, the published magazine of

1554
01:11:29,925 --> 01:11:33,375
Sy Craft was just like, Hey, here's one
technique that I could probably use in the

1555
01:11:33,375 --> 01:11:35,685
next week or two for a particular project.

1556
01:11:35,865 --> 01:11:35,955
Mm-hmm.

1557
01:11:36,285 --> 01:11:40,695
, you know, I could be inspired by the rest
of it, but usually I always got one nice

1558
01:11:40,700 --> 01:11:45,315
little technique or layout that I might
be able to emulate in my own designs.

1559
01:11:45,855 --> 01:11:49,005
Michael Riley: So to, to not take at
least one thing away from every issue

1560
01:11:49,010 --> 01:11:52,335
is sign craft I think is impossible
or you're just not reading it.

1561
01:11:52,485 --> 01:11:54,735
should, like, everyone is, is amazing.

1562
01:11:54,855 --> 01:11:55,125
Yeah.

1563
01:11:56,955 --> 01:11:57,315
Bryant Gillespie: Cool.

1564
01:11:57,375 --> 01:11:57,645
All right.

1565
01:11:57,645 --> 01:12:02,385
Well, before we close out, I would
like to thank our sponsor, GCI Digital.

1566
01:12:03,165 --> 01:12:08,804
If you are looking for a wholesale
or trade printing partner for large

1567
01:12:08,865 --> 01:12:14,625
format or wide format or grand format
printing, I, I've seen those new

1568
01:12:14,630 --> 01:12:16,545
printers that TJ and the team have got.

1569
01:12:17,025 --> 01:12:18,375
They are massive.

1570
01:12:18,945 --> 01:12:23,835
Uh, if you are looking for a trade
printer who has good customer service

1571
01:12:24,195 --> 01:12:32,715
like we just talked about, look up print
gci.com, gci, digital owner, TJ Beat Act.

1572
01:12:32,835 --> 01:12:35,775
We had 'em on the podcast, episode nine.

1573
01:12:35,775 --> 01:12:37,455
I wanna say check 'em out.

1574
01:12:38,175 --> 01:12:44,745
If you would like, if you are interested
in being a guest on the podcast, send us

1575
01:12:44,745 --> 01:12:47,775
an email at, hey, better sign shop.com.

1576
01:12:48,224 --> 01:12:49,425
We'd love to hear your story.

1577
01:12:50,384 --> 01:12:52,005
We really like to talk to people.

1578
01:12:52,009 --> 01:12:55,215
As you could tell, this is like
two hours by now, I'm sure.

1579
01:12:55,935 --> 01:12:58,635
If you are a sign shop owner,
make sure you look up the Better

1580
01:12:58,635 --> 01:13:00,645
Sign Shop community on Facebook.

1581
01:13:00,645 --> 01:13:04,155
It is our free community
for sign shop owners.

1582
01:13:04,635 --> 01:13:10,785
And, uh, if you like everything else,
take a look at Mike's website, letterbox

1583
01:13:10,785 --> 01:13:13,275
Sign design, scope, some of his work.

1584
01:13:13,335 --> 01:13:14,235
Just don't steal it.

1585
01:13:14,625 --> 01:13:15,465
Come after you.

1586
01:13:16,245 --> 01:13:16,755
Alright, what is it?

1587
01:13:17,145 --> 01:13:18,225
D M C A.

1588
01:13:18,225 --> 01:13:19,545
You'll get the take down notice.

1589
01:13:19,845 --> 01:13:22,665
Be inspired, don't blindly copy.

1590
01:13:24,105 --> 01:13:24,465
Michael Riley: Thanks, Brent.

1591
01:13:25,305 --> 01:13:25,845
Sounds great.

1592
01:13:26,625 --> 01:13:26,985
Love it.

1593
01:13:28,035 --> 01:13:28,395
Bryant Gillespie: All right.

1594
01:13:28,965 --> 01:13:29,385
All right guys.

1595
01:13:29,385 --> 01:13:30,525
We'll catch you on the next one.

1596
01:13:30,735 --> 01:13:31,545
Thanks for listening.

1597
01:13:31,815 --> 01:13:32,495
We appreciate you.

1598
01:13:33,545 --> 01:13:35,205
Michael Riley: If you liked this episode,

1599
01:13:35,235 --> 01:13:38,805
Tom McIltrot: make sure you hit subscribe
to get all the latest episodes, and check

1600
01:13:38,805 --> 01:13:41,925
out our website, better sign shop.com.

1601
01:13:42,585 --> 01:13:45,915
Get free resources and helpful
tools on growing your shop.

1602
01:13:46,275 --> 01:13:47,265
Thanks for listening.