Tom McIltrot: Learn how to build a better sign and print shop from a
few crusty sign guys who've made more mistakes than they care to admit.
Conversations and advice on pricing, sales, marketing, workflow, growth,
Michael Riley: and
Tom McIltrot: more.
Your listening to The Better Sign Shop podcast with your hosts,
Michael Riley: Peter
Tom McIltrot: COIs, Michael O'Reilly,
Michael Riley: and Bryant Gillespie.
Bryant Gillespie: Before we jump into the episode, I'd like to give a shout
out to our sponsor, GCI I Digital Imaging Grand Format Printer to the trade.
We talk a lot about outsourcing on the podcast and the importance of.
Good partners and GCI Digital Imaging is a good partner to have owner TJ
Bak and his team focused on providing killer customer service just the
way grandmother used to make it.
If you're interested in learning their approach to business, hop
back into the archives to episode nine where the guys and I interview
TJ about customer experience.
So if you're looking for a high quality trade printer for banners, wraps,
and other printed graphics that your customers throw at you, check out
GCI Digital imaging@printgci.com.
Alright guys, welcome to the next edition of the Better Sign Shop podcast.
As always, I've got my friends and colleagues with me, Peter
Caris, the sign Shop, Yoda.
How are you Pete?
How's up everybody?
Happy to be back.
Yeah, glad to have you back.
We missed you last episode.
And.
We have the Sign Design Samurai.
Michael Riley.
Mike, how are
Michael Riley: you?
Is that what you've settled on?
For me, the Samurai,
Bryant Gillespie: I, nobody has given me any new ones, uh, as of late.
So the second somebody gives me a new one, , you're gonna get hit with another one.
I don't, I don't know what it's gonna be from, you know, I, I've
run out of nicknames myself.
I, I'm just exhausted.
Like, I, I don't have any more brain powered left to give you a new nickname.
So somebody else, if you're listening to this, keep the nicknames coming.
We want to keep Mike on his toes.
Michael Riley: I'm having an identity crisis.
I'm , I'm starting to freak out a little bit here every week.
It's a new , it's a new nickname for Mike.
I'm good.
How are you?
Bryant Gillespie: I'm good.
Good.
What's?
It's good.
What's new with you guys?
Pete, dude, what have you been doing?
Oh, I've been
Peter Kourounis: really busy.
I've been real busy.
I've been keeping myself busy in the franchise world.
Also meeting some new sign shop owners in the world, uh, discussing franchising with
them, discussing how to make them, you know, strive for operational excellence.
So we've been, I've been traveling, meeting new sign shop owners, helping
them get their stride, hit their stride, and love the fact of, uh, trying to
help as many people as I possibly can.
Bryant Gillespie: It sounds like you're really enjoying retirement . Well,
Michael Riley: yeah.
Peter Kourounis: You know, uh, throwing in the, uh, the sign shop owner badge
for sign shop consultant is, uh, has been a very busy transaction, a very,
a busy transition, I should say.
And it is very heartwarming and, and welcoming and humbling.
I love that I get to meet people in different parts.
I love that I get to go to different parts of the country.
I've never been to Missouri, never been to.
Chicago, Georgia.
So just meeting new sign shop owners, helping them in their operation.
It's been, it's been really fun
Bryant Gillespie: so far.
Missouri, huh?
Mm.
Michael Riley: Exotic
. Bryant Gillespie: Very exotic.
. Mike, what have you been up to,
Michael Riley: man?
Uh, same old, for me, trying to lay low and just stay busy opposite of
Peter . Do very d different life tracks.
I think.
Enjoying retirement as well.
Enjoying
Bryant Gillespie: retirement.
Jack, are you still staying up till 2:00 AM in the mornings designing
stuff, or you got that cutout now?
Michael Riley: Uh, I, I don't know, man.
I'm on a weird schedule.
Like I, I, I tend to just kind of during the day, poke around the house
and work on house projects and respond to email anymore it seems like.
My brain wants to design at night, so I, I sort of like start working on design
work after, after dinner, and then I kind of go till I get tired, which
is a weird cycle I'm trying to break, but it's really just kind of like my
personality and not being so busy that I have to work until 2:00 AM anymore.
Kind of got that under control.
Hey, speaking
Peter Kourounis: of your designs, you know, we had a, a post where
you put out a couple of examples of some of your most recent work.
Mockups.
Eh, it's gotten a lot of praise and especially in conversations I've had a
lot of people have shown more impressed by what you have put out there.
So, uh, including myself that it was
Michael Riley: kudos to you.
. I, uh, I, I think I know which post you're talking about.
I think I picked up nine clients off of one Facebook post , so yeah.
I guess I need to do more marketing.
Imagine that.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
Weird signed guy.
That, that actually does marketing.
That's
Michael Riley: like a, it's an
Bryant Gillespie: anomaly is what?
It's a ping one that flies or something.
Right.
I was really struggling to, to come up with something there.
That's, it's a technology.
I can tell you guys what kind of fun I've been
Michael Riley: having.
Yeah.
What have you been up to?
Brian?
Car
Bryant Gillespie: shopping.
Car shopping again?
So we, we just got my wife a new car.
She had it for about three weeks and, uh, some young buck decided to jump
in front of her car on the way to work and, uh, didn't end well for him.
Didn't end well for the car.
My wife is okay, thankfully, but we have totaled two cars in two
months, so that's where we're at.
Michael Riley: Just for my own
Peter Kourounis: clarification, cuz I'm, I'm a bit up north.
When you say Young Buck, that's not a young kid.
That's a, that's actually a young deer, correct?
. Bryant Gillespie: That is a deer, yes.
Peter Kourounis: Okay.
Just want, just wanted to make sure that you didn't commit
like a hit and run there,
. Bryant Gillespie: No, I, I was being vague, uh, intentionally there,
but yeah, no, it was, um, it was just a, a young male deer that for
whatever reason, decided to play in traffic eight o'clock in the morning.
Not wise, he
Michael Riley: just did it.
I still can't get over the fact that she totaled two cars
within a month of each other.
Like that's, I can't believe you guys still have insurance.
Like I feel like your insurance company should have dropped you by now.
Yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: The cease and desist letter this week comes
from the insurance company,
Michael Riley: Farmer's Insurance.
Bryant Gillespie: Uh, the insurance is, we've got really great insurance.
Yeah.
It's like the teacher insurance horse man.
So, and like a, if a deer, if you hit a deer and there's nothing you can
do, it's considered an act of God.
So they can't really penalize you for that, or at least
that's what they told us.
Michael Riley: That's, uh, that's good.
That's very interesting.
Bryant Gillespie: I'm not saying go get like your truck
and go hit deer on purpose.
Just
Michael Riley: Bryant Bryant told me you guys were cool with this.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
So I, that's what we've been wrestling with.
Other than that, uh, just staying busy.
Michael Riley: So, have you guys picked out a new car yet
or are you still still trying
Bryant Gillespie: to Uh, we're, we're deciding.
My wife likes nice cars, so we're looking at a Mercedes E-class right now.
Use one, uh, not a new one, but, uh, hopefully by the time we record
the next one, we'll have that sorted out because we gotta take the
rental car back tomorrow afternoon.
Michael Riley: on a scale of one to 10, how sick and tired are you
of shopping for cars right now?
Uh, I'm probably at like an eight
Bryant Gillespie: and I enjoy that process.
My wife is probably like at an 11, uh, just totally defeated.
Like I feel so bad for her, you know, like you have the car that you wanted and
then a deer just jumps in front of you.
You know, I'm, I'm
Peter Kourounis: actually interested.
I have a question Cause I recently bought a, a couple of vehicles here,
but I bought mine through an app.
Cause I hate the experience of a car dealership experience.
I mean, we preach on how to sell signs here and, and how to coach
people on how only selling signs do not do it like car dealers do.
Like that to me is like the worst of the worst.
But I, but buying it through an app is actually right.
Very simple.
It actually just got delivered here this afternoon on a flatbed.
Like it was seamless.
So Have you tried
Bryant Gillespie: that?
Uh, we looked at Carvana, but they wouldn't deliver it to our house because
we live in Podunk, West Virginia.
So we had to, we would have to drive two hours to pick up the vehicle, which is
like, at that point every might as well.
My wife hates it.
Like, I, I like to play that game and , I, I don't know why.
It's like some, I, no, it's probably something I need to go to therapy for.
But, you know,
? Peter Kourounis: Yeah.
Yep.
I'm sorry.
I'd rather listen to people nickel and dime me over graphic design than ever have
to go to a car dealership used or new.
That process is just, I feel like the moment you walk in the door,
they're ready to bend you over.
Like that whole, like that whole process from beginning to end.
And when you're finally sitting in with like that finance manager,
she's like hitting you with, do you want rim protection?
Do you want wheel protection?
Do you want extra years on your warranty?
I'm like, I already gave, I already signed away half of my
life and spent 18 hours here.
I'm not looking to spend another hour with you, talking to you
about, well, the what ifs.
Well, we have really great dent coverage and really great rim.
Uh, I was like, what the heck is road rash?
Oh, road rash.
Yeah.
That's when your curbs run against the curb.
Uh, your car rims run against the curb, you know?
Doesn't that happen?
It's like $400 or rim to fix.
I could, uh, if you pay now it's $89.
Like, lady, stop making my hair gray
. Bryant Gillespie: And that's why haven't I heard your, your impression of this
lady, this unnamed car lady before
Peter Kourounis: Lorraine.
Her name is Lorraine.
It's not even Karen, it's Lorraine.
It sh it could be Beatrice depending on the
Michael Riley: day of the week.
Re reminds me of the Secretary in, uh, in Monsters Inc.
You guys see that
Bryant Gillespie: movie?
Yes.
I don't know.
I don't remember the secretary, Mike Kowski.
Peter Kourounis: Mike, you know, would you like to add
that road to your car warranty?
Bryant Gillespie: That's
Michael Riley: it.
, no, I, it definitely seems like an industry that's like,
just primed for somebody to come in and totally disrupt it.
But it's, it's amazing to me that nobody can or has yet, like, it's
like the, it's the last holdout of moving to, uh, you know, CarMax,
Bryant Gillespie: Carvana, like a Carvana True car.
Peter Kourounis: Like every, like, everything.
If you buy a car through those apps, I think you'll have a much easier time.
But if they don't deliver to you, then all right, you gotta go into the dealership.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
So, enough, enough about the car shopping.
Let's get into it today, Mike.
I know you're a pretty hard fanboy of Sign Craft Magazine.
I'm
Michael Riley: freaking out over here.
I'm freaking out.
I'm like, who,
Bryant Gillespie: who do we got about the Shake Outta My, who do we got?
We got him.
Who is it?
We got him.
Michael Riley: Tom Mcle Trot of Sign Craft Magazine.
Yeah.
This is exciting.
I, this is Sign Craft was like, and, and, and still is to an extent the mm-hmm.
, you know, the Bible of, of sign making for me.
I mean, it just, what an amazing, amazing magazine that it it is and was, and,
and I've learned so much about the craft and the art of making signs and, and.
You know, all the skill that goes into it and the design.
So for me, I'm like, I didn't sleep last night.
Like, I'm just, I'm giddy with excitement to talk to this guy.
Like, it's, you have no idea.
This is Mike's Christmas.
Yeah, it is.
Seriously like Christmas and February.
This
Bryant Gillespie: is, this is gonna be awesome.
All right.
Michael Riley: No, this is it.
Like this is, this is the pinnacle of my career right here.
Like, like I have peaked Ooh.
Right now.
And it's all downhill after this.
So.
Bryant Gillespie: All right.
We'll never talk.
Bring him on.
Let's bring him on.
All right guys.
So we are back with Tom Mcle trot of Sign Craft.
Tom McIltrot: Welcome on Tom.
Thank you, Brian.
Appreciate it.
Thanks for the invitation.
Yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: Super
Michael Riley: nice to have you.
Yeah, we're really excited you're here.
This is cool.
Great.
Bryant Gillespie: Hey, Mike said this was his Christmas . Oh, yeah.
. Michael Riley: Yeah.
I, I had a sleepless night last night in anticipation.
I'm
, Tom McIltrot: like
Bryant Gillespie: so many of us, like a sign craft when we
were coming up in the industry.
I hate to date myself, I don't know how many years ago it was now , but like, sign
Craft was, that was how we communicate, or like how we learned the trade was like,
okay, yeah, I could pick up Sign Craft.
I've got these detailed articles with all the photos, step-by-step of how
to make this sign or how to design something, or how to price something.
And you know, I, I know certainly I wouldn't be here today without
Sy Craft, so just thank you to get that outta the way.
Well, well,
Tom McIltrot: thank you very much.
That's cool to hear.
Appreciate that.
Bryant Gillespie: Mike, do you want to, do you wanna get your love letter now?
? Michael Riley: Same for me.
I mean, I, when I started in the industry back in the mid nineties, I, I mean, just
devoured every epi issue, a sign craft I could get my hands on, and I've still
got, you know, several hundred in storage.
I need to dig those out and go through 'em again.
. Yeah, I would say 80% of what I.
Know about this industry I learned from your magazine.
Um, great.
It, it was the greatest thing ever.
I mean, I, I loved it.
I mean, all the way down to like, I would even geek out over the paper
and the print quality in it, which was just , you know, several steps
above any other magazine out there.
Tom McIltrot: And it was, yeah.
Well, thank you.
I appreciate you noticed that.
We were, we were always.
Proud of the, of the stock and the, and the print quality.
And that was a big thing for us since it was a graphics magazine,
you know, a visual experience.
So we were, we were kind of, that was important to us.
Yeah.
It made
Michael Riley: a, it made a huge d I mean, you know, we're all geeks about
that kind of stuff in this industry, and it definitely made a huge difference.
I mean, it just, the, the tactile feel of it when you flip through pages, I
mean, it's, it's a much more engaging, fun experience to read a magazine like
that versus one that's printed on, you know, like tissue paper, , so, right.
. Tom McIltrot: Yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
So, thanks.
I, I feel like we, we like know the story of Tom through Sy Craft, but I
really don't know the story of Tom.
So like, give us, give us your background.
Like how, how did you get started in the sign industry?
How did Sign Craft come about?
Tom McIltrot: Sure.
Well, like a lot of folks our, my age, our age, I was, um, in high school
and whatnot, wanting to do something with my hands, something creative,
and, uh, worked in a cabinet shop for a while, worked in, uh, A couple other
kind of hands on businesses, but one day I was on my way home from school
and there were a couple of guys, three guys on a billboard in front of a new
development and, uh, back in the field.
So I swung the car off the road and trudged back there through the muck and
got, got there and asked them, how do you guys, how do you learn to do this?
And two of 'em said, oh, don't bother.
It's too much work, . And one guy told me, uh, you just need to get
some old cool sign books and, uh, and start practicing learn how to letter.
Well, I missed that part.
I, I, I got home, but I was still cranked about it.
So I, I started thumbing through the yellow pages and calling sign shops
and seeing if anybody needed help.
So I got all the way to G two shops told.
Same thing.
If you can't let her, we don't need you.
You know, we don't need somebody to sweep up.
So, but I got the G and called gene signs and uh, gene answered the phone
and as luck would have it, he had a young woman there through a D C
T program at high school, you know, part-time cooperative training person.
And she had just quit.
So I told him, he said, what can you do?
I said, I'll do anything, you know, I can paint boards, I can answer the phone.
And so I went there and he had a small traditional commercial sign shop, and, uh,
Started hanging out there every day after school, even on days he wasn't paying me
and didn't want me and didn't need me.
Um, and tried to make myself indispensable.
I dug postals and and stuff and we, we clicked pretty well.
And so after about a month, he, one day af after I punched out, he said, you know,
here one minute, take a look at this.
And he got a piece of yellow show card out and slapped it on the easel and
gave me a number six Quill with some dite poster color and said, watch this.
And he drew me, drew some lines with his yardstick, you
know, right across there and.
Letter to one stroke, a bunch of one stroke letters, and, um, and then you sit
here, try and, um, so I did and it was a god awful experience, you know, and I
still have the, I still have that first, uh, piece of show card, um, somewhere.
But, but that was it.
I was hooked on making letters with a brush.
So I, I just went home and built an easel in the garage and started practicing.
So I was about 16 or 17 at the time, and I worked there for about three, four years.
And I'm a native of Pennsylvania, so my, my family at the time returned.
They moved back, they had only lived in Florida about five years.
They went back to Pennsylvania and.
in that same time.
Both of my older, my brothers, my older brother and my younger brother wound
up working at that same sign shop.
It was growing like crazy.
And he, by then he had about six employees, and of which we were three
of, you know, half the staff , um, right.
And, and we, uh, so we, he, he was getting, he had
gotten into screen printing.
We were printing real estate signs and t-shirts and, and we were doing all
sorts of flat signs, painted signs.
So, so when we decided to move back to pa, we went up there and
moved back to the small town that we were from north of Pittsburgh.
And there was no sign shop there, so there was no place to work.
So we, we just figured, well, we'll open one.
And so we went into the signed business, totally green.
Like I say, I was maybe 20 and.
Made all the classic mistakes, worked there for a couple years and then
decided Florida was a lot better place to live and work and everything.
While we were there, we um, we got in sandblasting signs, saw Big John Brice's
book advertised in signs of the Times, and we, and we blasted our first signs there
in pa and when we got back to Florida, it was a completely different market,
much better market for blasted signs and developments were popping up everywhere.
And so we did that for a couple years.
And in between we were all single.
Three of us traveled around a lot.
Whenever we did, we stopped in sign shops and we'd connect with people.
We'd either get chased off or we'd connect with people.
One of the two . So when we, when we connected with folks, we often wound
up sending photographs back and.
I was talking to Chester Cunningham at the time who I had met through sign of the
Times and seen his work there and, um, he hooked me up with Big John Burell and, and
some folks like that Chuck who Depo and Bob Sealander, all old time traditional
sign guys who were top of their game.
So they would send photographs to to us.
We would dup 'em and send em to him.
The other folks we knew.
And somewhere along in the line in there's one of us decided, Hey, wouldn't
it be cool to have a magazine just for sign painters, which is what we
were primarily, you know, at the time.
So we kicked it around a little bit.
We, we went to the library and photocopied a thousand sign shop
addresses out of the yellow Pages.
For some reason, the, the library had yellow pages for the, for
all the major cities there.
And so we just Oh wow.
Got our, got our dimes out and photocopied all the, all the pages we needed.
We went home, typed up mailing labels, wrote a letter saying,
here's what we'd like to do.
, it's gonna be nine bucks a year.
It's gonna come out quarterly and it's gonna be a magazine for sign shops.
It was, it was a very self-serving thing.
It was, we did just what we wish was coming in our mailbox.
So we sent it out.
We got 88 people who sent us back 88 Brave Souls who sent us
nine bucks to, to give it a go.
And, and that was it.
We got started in 1980, printed a thousand copies of the first issue.
Wow.
Went back to the sign shop and slid 'em in envelopes and sent 'em away.
And, uh, a year or so later, we sold the shop to some friends of ours to get the
cash we needed to start printing color.
Color back then was incredibly expensive.
Separations were 300 bucks a page for an eight by 10.
And, um, and color printing then was, was really high priced.
So, but there was an explosion coming that we didn't realize with print.
Print production was getting easier and more affordable.
And so we just kind of grew right along with that.
And a couple years later, it was a full color magazine and, uh,
and the subscription's history.
Wow.
Yeah.
The subscription, the subscription numbers just grew.
We, we were amazed.
We were totally amazed the, the, and the cool work that came in, in the
mail, you know, envelopes from first, from like Raymond Chapman and m Marelli
then, and they told other folks.
And then I, I distinctly remember the day I got an, an envelope from this
cat in Bloomington, Indiana, Gary Anderson, and slid his photographs out.
And the, the one on the top was Bloomington Winery
on the top of that stack.
And it, it went on the cover of that next issue at the time.
And, uh, it was just the start of a whole bunch of really neat
friendships with really creative people who were amazingly willing.
to share what they knew.
And, uh, we, we, we had worries about that initially, about are we
gonna be able to get enough material?
Are people gonna tell us stuff?
Yeah.
And we had been chased out of sign shops, so we knew it.
Sometimes it was, it was a touchy subject trying to What
Bryant Gillespie: were those conversations like when you guys went into a sign shop?
Like you just, like cold walked up to you, uh, somebody else's a sign shop.
Sure.
It was like, Hey, we're sign guys.
Can we hang out and chat?
Like,
Tom McIltrot: yep.
And I, and you know, I, I remember going to one in Vermont, Dick Flynn,
he's gone now, but, um, he was a really cool guy, a great sign Carver,
and a good solid sign painter.
We walked up to his shop and, and he was out front lettering a truck.
And he worked from, from studio in his home.
And, and so while he was talking, while we were talking, he.
Reached up and pulled the overhead door down to the shop.
So , we couldn't quite, you know, it was like in the old days, we used to
say, oh, a sign, another sign guy, you know, hide the patterns, um, hide the
work orders, . Um, but, um, so, but we went on to become great friends.
Uh, and Dick was a big, um, proponent for, uh, for us,
encouraging us to do sign craft.
He, he was a great guy and, but, you know, some, some, it's, it's really
probably not too different than it is now for you guys visiting sign shops.
Some shops are very open and very motivated and they're
excited about what they're doing.
They wanna do new things and other shops are more in a niche.
They don't really wanna maybe do any experimenting.
They don't really wanna talk, uh, about, about the work.
So we just always were able to connect with, uh, droves of,
of those folks who were really.
Energetic about what they were doing, and, um, it was inspiration.
It, it juiced us up and, and drove the whole thing.
We really didn't do an awful lot of promotion by, by the early nineties
when you guys, I guess, would've started seeing it, it was going to 22,000 sign
shops in 74 countries, I believe it was.
Wow.
And uh, and it's an incredible little niche of really creative, inspired people.
Michael Riley: Did you ever have any trouble getting content for the
magazine from people, or were people just beating down your door to submit?
Tom McIltrot: Right.
No, the first three issues we had to work pretty hard at, and Chester
Cunningham was still alive then, and he, he said, Tom, you're not gonna.
Information.
There's not enough of the people who are really enthused about the
work and, and you're not gonna get a steady flow of articles and material
photos and stuff for articles.
But, but it didn't pan out.
It, it actually went the other way.
And even to this day, I have the exact opposite problem.
I, I always have to suffer through sorting out what I'm
going, what I'm going to use now.
Because there's this massive amount of, um, of work that I'm aware of or
people have shared with me, you know, that I wanna get in the magazine.
It was murder in the print days, especially because, you know
what, we, we'd have, um, four to six pages for a profile and that
was maybe 14, 16 photographs.
And somebody would send you 90 pictures, you know, or 40 pictures
and you'd spread these all out and it's like, oh no, use this one.
No, we gotta use this one.
So it's like, it was, uh, it was always tough, but, but man, it was fun.
Michael Riley: Yeah.
That's really cool.
So who, This is, this is probably a hard, hard question to answer.
What, what was your, your favorite article You ever, you ever ran in the magazine?
Do you remember?
Or have there been so many that it's like possible
Tom McIltrot: to change?
Oh, there, yeah, there have been so many.
I, I think the, um, I, I enjoy the design driven articles the most probably,
cuz I, I think that's what created Sign Craft was the idea that a sh a an
individual sign person had their own style and they, they could create this
cool stuff and it gave them something to sell beyond letters on a board.
You know, there were a lot of guys back then doing hand lettering, but a lot
of it was just functional kinda stuff.
But, but then when you started running these creative people like God Almighty,
Bob Boho, Tom Kelly, all the folks in New Jersey, you know, Glenn Weiss, Gerber.
Quimby names of those.
There's so many of those folks that really, every one of those articles
became a, a favorite, you know, it was like all that energy from
those, from those creative people.
So
, Michael Riley: I, I remember, I think one of my favorite issues you guys ever
released was, uh, like mid, late nineties.
It was, uh, kind of a spotlight on all the Jersey guys, and it
was a, you know, a whole issue about Jersey's style lettering.
And that, I mean, I still draw inspiration from that to this day.
, you know, that that style has really like, you know, kind of
stayed back in the nineties.
Uh, there's, right, what a, what an amazing wealth of,
of knowledge and information.
Just that one, that one issue had from those guys.
It was, yeah.
Really, really cool.
Hey Tom, I
Peter Kourounis: welcome to the, welcome to the show.
I just wanted to introduce myself.
We've never met.
Big fan.
I was very pleased to see that we were able to get you onto the show
here, and I'm so happy that you answered that Mike's last question in
that way, because that's really what resonated with me and this magazine.
I couldn't wait to talk to you about this.
So it's a good segue into this topic here.
Design I I, I.
For me, the magazine was a godsend to learning what were, what others
were doing around the country.
Yeah.
Uh, just being introduced to different artists and different concepts and
ideologies and methodologies of doing things and what software they did it in.
And this is what was the before and this is how they got to the after.
Uh, I, that's what I looked forward to the most.
I don't have a collection of your magazines that are in storage like
Monk does, but , I kept, I kept a, a, a large amount of selection in
my lobby of all of my locations.
I, it was a requirement for my franchise.
Almost every one of my locations had a subscription to your magazine
so that they were in the lobbies of their locations as well.
And customers loved reading it.
I think it was a really great, uh, value add from, um, from a customer experience.
Like, Hey, this is what.
Maybe you can be inspired by perusing through this magazine.
You like that word, right?
Bryant Gillespie: Perusing
Peter Kourounis: perusing through that magazine to get some inspiration.
Right.
Because, you know, your average consumer doesn't really know what they want.
So if you can reference examples of sign shop owners across the country,
I mean, I used your magazine as, as an asset, as a tool in my tool belt.
Mm-hmm.
, um, just from my own perspective in being introduced to different designers
with their portfolio and, and, and, and, and showcasing their work has made me,
has pushed me to be a better designer.
And I'm sure you hear this a lot, I'm sure you get this a lot.
Can you speak
Tom McIltrot: to that at all?
Yeah, yeah.
We do hear it a lot and it's always good to hear.
It's, it's, um, you know, Syra, we were able to be a clearinghouse
for all that good stuff.
That, that's what I think the significant thing was.
And so many people have told me that.
Uh, and we realized this when we were starting to get all
these photographs of cool work.
From other people.
When a customer is standing there and is telling you, you know, I need a sign to
cut to the chase, it's so good to be able to show them a few things and narrow that
sign that's in their head down to what their appeals to them or what they, their
thinking or what's their budget is for.
And so a lot of folks have told us that they use the magazine that way because
it, it kind of, uh, really when, when a customer looks through a dozen or
two dozen or three dozen photographs, something's gonna flip their switch.
And so you can kind of, you know where to go because, you know, it's like Ken
Malar used to say, when people said that, you know what, I need a sign.
He said, well, you come to the right place, I can make you one for $20.
I can make you one for $20,000.
So all we gotta do is figure out where you are in between.
So, so, yeah.
And, and you know, Peter, you probably realized this too, from the magazine.
Wasn't it amazing to unearth all those kind of regional sign styles?
We, we didn't realize there was this going on at all when we, and, and so for us,
it was an education as we went along to see the, the Chicago school, you know, of
the, the Chicago designers and to learn how those guys had gone to California in
their fifties and created another whole west coast style that was happening there.
The jersey work, the, the, the traditional carved New England, uh,
car hand carved gold leaf science that were all over New England.
You know, it's like, I had never seen one of those in real life until I got
to Vermont, you know, and, and here they were on every store from a hardware
store to a, you know, to a, b, and b.
But that was really that genre, you know, there in the Northeast.
And then San Jose, which Mike Stevens, um, built his whole, um, approach around
that was another whole design school.
So there's probably.
Eight or 10 US design schools like that, I think that, uh, that we could identify.
But, um,
Bryant Gillespie: and you know, did you like the sign historian?
Almost
. Tom McIltrot: I just got exposed to a lot of cool stuff by a lot of inspiring
people and I'm really grateful for that and, and to have known these, these
folks and, you know, so much of it back then was definitely not like this.
We, we did it over the phone and through, uh, you know, handwritten
letters and notes and stacks of pictures wrapped up in pattern paper
that, uh, that showed up in the mail.
So it was, uh, it was a pretty vibrant time, especially cuz there
were a lot of, besides that group of people who were sharing this
stuff, there was armies of folks like you guys who were hungry for it.
Pre-internet.
There was, it was, there weren't a lot of places to get that information.
There weren't any really
Yeah.
So, right.
Bryant Gillespie: So, right.
And, and they like the, um, Mike and Pete and I talk about the early
days of like signs 1 0 1 and like some of the signs specific mm-hmm.
Forms that popped up when the internet came around and, you know, it was very
much that mentality, like you mentioned of like, Hey, I've come walking into
these guys painting on a billboard and I'm like, Hey, I want to get into this.
And everybody's like, no, get outta here.
Like, go get a real job.
Like you don't wanna be a side guy.
So I can't imagine what that was like before the internet though.
Oh, you,
Tom McIltrot: yeah.
Yeah.
I remember one cool old sign guy in a sign shop in Pennsylvania putting his arm on my
shoulder and saying, son, go be a barber.
That's where the money is.
So,
Michael Riley: um, in hindsight, do you wish you would've taken that advice,
? Tom McIltrot: No.
Needless to say I'm really happy with how, how things went here.
I, I, uh, I'm really grateful to have, to have, you know, bumped into this
and, and all these cool people and, and to have been able to, to share it
really with folks around the world.
Got a really nice letter, uh, emailed the other day from some folks in Amsterdam
who have a bunch of the old magazines.
I have no idea where they got 'em.
And, and really loved, you know, just wrote the sandwich, they loved
it and how much, how helpful it was.
And that's pretty cool.
Yeah.
That is cool.
Bryant Gillespie: Everything that is old once becomes new again.
Yeah.
We put, um, we've got a, a Facebook community for sign shop owners and at
the other day I posted like, give us your take on the future of the industry.
And a couple people came back and said, Hey, like Gold Leaf is coming back, uh,
tra you know, like these, these craft, the craft of signage is coming back.
Mm-hmm.
, you know, you've had like a front row seat to the industry over, uh,
the last, you know, 30, 42 years.
40 years, yeah.
42.
I was, I was, I was thinking like 1980.
I was like, man, that's, yeah.
Yeah.
Like, like what kind of like big shifts have you seen, you know,
have you like, oh, hey, this is like a, a changing of the, the.
Tom McIltrot: Yeah, well, the computer of course rewrote things for every,
for all of us, not just the sign industry, but for printing, the
printing industry and, and everything.
But, um, I think there was a, like a renaissance time there in the seventies,
eighties, nineties when people were really interested in kind of doing things
with their hands and having a business where they were kind of in full control.
They, they talked to the customer, they did the cool design, they car
the letters, they laid the gold leaf and planted it, you know?
And so, but I think that that's harder to do now.
There are still folks doing it.
It's, you know, the cost of living and, and the cost of shop space and, and
everything, the cost to get into the sign business have all gone up exponentially.
You know, before it was just a matter of a box of brushes.
And, um, so I think the, the big difference is that we've, We've gone
to this full digital thing and I just did an interesting article with
Shane Deford, who's been, who started out as a sign painter, became a sign
carver because vinyl was coming in, did sign carving and workshops and
everything up in Canada for years.
Burned out, took a hiatus and, and has come back to carve incredibly
beautiful signs and probably go some
Michael Riley: workshops again, just to insert something here,
if anybody listening has never seen Shane's work, , look him up.
Prepare to have your mind blown, like talk about, yep.
Unbelievably talented guy.
Like this guy is one of the most incredible sign makers I've ever seen.
Tom McIltrot: Yep.
Shane darnford.com.
Another, another website we could share with folks to check out is solo signs.com.
Uh, lane Walker's, Reno Sign Shop.
Who, who is just that?
He works alone, works solo hand, lettered letters, everything.
Some incredible truck work, uh, is leaving that shop every day.
So there's, uh, there are a lot, and, you know, it gives me an idea actually
for a cool article sometime is to collect all the websites of that folks really
should start visiting because there's just a tremendous amount of, of mind
blowing work there to, to check out.
But like I say, I can see it in, in folks like Shane's career that some
of these folks are coming back to us or coming back to hand lettering and
carving and whatnot, and they found a niche again with part of the business
community that, that values that like, you know, tattoo parlors, barbershops.
Cigar shops, coffee shops, pubs.
There, there's a market for creative handmade signs again.
And, and if, if somebody's really into more of a production mode and
they're, they're into, you know, to do, wanna do printed or do wanna
do electrical, there's, there's so many opportunities there too.
So, Mike,
Bryant Gillespie: what do you like, what's your take on this man?
Like, I, you know, we, we've beat the dead horse a couple times of where
like, this is why you got in the industry was to do the nice signs.
Like do you think they're, do you see them, Megan, a comeback?
Michael Riley: I do.
I I think that when I, when I got into the industry in the, in the mid
nineties, I, I think the, um, you know, that was kind of right as the computer.
And, and vinyl cutters and everything, were becoming pretty mainstream.
I mean, they pretty attainable for every sign shop.
And that, that definitely shifted the, the trajectory I think, of
the industry as a, as a whole.
Mm-hmm.
, we talked about this a little bit with, with Dan Antonelli, uh, when we
had him on the show about, you know, there's, there's very little barrier
of entry to the industry, right?
I mean, if you've got 30, 40 grand, you can buy a plotter and apl a
printer and you know, computer and you're in the sign industry.
And it's funny, you know, Tom just said, you know, back then and you 50 bucks in
brushes and you're in the industry, right?
But the barrier there was you gotta know how to use those brushes.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
That's feel like, yeah.
Yeah.
That's a huge, that's, that's a funny,
Michael Riley: yeah.
You didn't say . Yeah.
I mean there's a big
Bryant Gillespie: difference there.
is pretty easy to spot, right?
, Michael Riley: right?
Yeah.
Well that guy doesn't know how to use, like, you really spot the guy that
doesn't know how to use his, his role in, but you definitely can spot the
guy who doesn't , you know, lettering.
Tom McIltrot: Um, very true.
Michael Riley: And, um, so I got into the industry.
And wanted to do the types of signs that Seine Craft featured.
I mean that, I mean this, that was like pornography for me.
. Like, I can't put this down.
I can't, I, I have to make this stuff.
I have to learn how to make this stuff.
And, and, and I did, and I found out really quickly that at least where I was
the market for it was, was dying out.
It was really hard to sell hand carved, high-end gold leaf signs and Yeah.
Uh, and Dayton, Ohio, where everybody really wanted going
outta business banners and Yeah.
Um, I, I think that now 20 plus years into that whole quote unquote digital
revolution in the sign industry, I think people have finally started to wake up
and realize that these are, these are only tools and they don't really do anything
other than what you, you tell them to do.
And I think that people are starting to recognize that, yeah, technically
it's a sign, it says my business name, but it's not, there's no artist,
there's no, there's no craft to that.
There's no art in that.
And I think people are really wanting to see a return to, to that.
And a lot of the signs that I'm designing, especially in the, in the last few
years, have really taken a shift towards.
Craft in, in it, in, in wanting to see something that's not just
a, a flat digital print slapped on a piece of dive on or something.
Mm-hmm.
, I think it's still got a ways to go and I, I do think that, and, and the
post you're talking about on the, the Facebook group, Brian, um, I,
I, I mentioned this is in a comment.
I think that as weird as it sounds, it's really easy for all of us to, to kind of.
Talk down on the current, you know, young generation, generation Z I think it is.
Whatever, it's , . But, but you know, those kids are, they grew up
with, they, they don't, they don't have any reference other than the
internet and, and, and they're Yeah.
In that younger generation.
It's interesting.
They're recognizing the value in handmade things that I think a couple
generations prior to them don't quite see because that we, we experienced that
transition from handmade to digital, and so we're, we're almost blind to it.
But this young generation, they, they didn't experience what
it was like before digital.
So they see this and there's a, there's a massive nostalgia
value to them, like mm-hmm.
, look, this is so cool.
It's before my time.
This hand painted, hand carved gold leaf sign is so much cooler Yeah.
Than this digitally signed.
So I think it's, it's coming full circle.
I think that vinyl and digital are starting to settle into their place and
not be, you know, and just become seen as, You know, a tool or a means to an end.
And I, and I think, and I'm seeing a lot of people really being willing
and, and interested and paying a premium for that quality handmade look.
And I, and I hope in the next 10 years, that really becomes
the dominant thing again.
I don't know if it will, but
Tom McIltrot: Yeah, that'd be cool.
Yeah, it'd be cool.
But, you know, you, you already see it in, I think like in restaurant
interiors and restaurants and, and pubs, interiors, coffee shop,
interiors, there's a lot of interest in using signs as like decor mm-hmm.
and, um, and they want 'em handmade, you know, for that stuff.
Mm-hmm.
. And so that, I think there's, there's some interesting trends there.
Yeah,
Michael Riley: yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
It's, it's interesting how it's, it's gone from such a utilitarian thing to actually
being a desirable almost piece of art.
I mean, it is, it is art.
Mm-hmm.
, depending on how you define art.
And I think people are finally starting to recognize that.
Again, I think it was true in the past, and I think it'll be true again.
I hope anywhere.
Tom McIltrot: Yeah.
I'm with you.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
So, hey.
Hey, Tom.
We've talked about, hey, kind of the current state of affairs, like,
and you know, where we wanted to go.
Where do you, what's your take on the future of the sign industry?
Like where do you, where do you see everything going?
Hmm.
Tom McIltrot: Well, I think really to echo what Michael's saying, I think
there's, as long as the economy stays strong, there's gonna be a market
for creative, creative science.
And that gives a leg in for the folks who want to have that type of
focus for their, for their business.
There's no doubt it's easier in like tourist markets or urban markets.
It's like Mike was saying, Dayton, Ohio.
I came from Western PA north of Pittsburgh, rust Belt City.
You know, it was very hard to get anybody to turn loose of any money.
Mm-hmm.
for a sandblasted sign.
But when I got back to Fort Myers, when we got back to Fort Myers, is
that real estate development exploding and the beaches becoming much more,
um, with a lot more tourist traffic.
It was easier to get, um, to get folks to, you know, write
a check for something cool.
So it's, it's, I feel bad for folks who are in a market where it just isn't
happening yet, or maybe never will happen.
So they'll have to kind of sprinkle those cool signs that they love doing and with
the, the more functional stuff they do.
But at the same time, even, even the everyday, you know, bread and butter
sciences, the design side of it can keep.
Can keep you enthused and, and energetic.
You know, a lot of the sign painters I worked with in the early days
there, they, they really never had an opportunity even to do gold leaf.
I mean, there was, nobody was doing gold when I was 20 years old.
I actually had to learn it from a, an old retired sign painter
that I read an article about 'em in the, in the newspaper.
And I went and pestered him and, and got him to show me how to,
how to glassgold do glassgold.
And, um, and he kind of, it was kinda like a novelty for him.
And, uh, his name was Chet Board and he said, uh, it's like, you
know, why do you wanna do this?
Nobody's gonna ever guild their glass windows.
Glass will guild glass again on windows, because companies move
too often, you know, and, and names change too, too often.
He said, you know, before if you let it, a bank window, it stayed
there until the window broke or the, the lettering fell off.
You know, the, the bank was just gonna be there.
So that turned around.
I mean, look at all the cool, uh, barbershop and tattoo glassgold
masterpieces that are being done.
And I hope everybody's getting paid for their time, but I know
they're having a good time doing it because we can tell, right?
We can tell when we look at their work.
But, uh, I think there'll be, there'll be some of that.
I think personally, I think the emphasis is gonna have to go
back and continue to go back to design because really in most shop
situations, that's what we're selling.
Especially with computer equipment, kind of it . Yeah.
Right.
Compu computers level the field as far as the production side.
And so if you stay with just how fast and how cheap you can produce
signs, It's, it's, it's mud wrestling.
It's no fun there.
And there's always gonna be somebody at the flea market or in their garage who is
totally inexperienced or maybe has other source of income who will do it for less.
So competing on that edge is always messy.
Whereas if you have, if you, you know, beef up your design skills and you have,
have something to offer on the design side that the customer can see with, with
your portfolio or on your website or your Instagram page, it's like, Hey, this guy
or this gal, whoever it is can do, can do what I need and give me that edge.
I think there's more business owners who are kinda looking for that now, and
there's still folks who are gonna come in and say, this is what my nephew designed.
This is what I want.
And I really do want the letters right out to the very edge of the board.
So, and you have to decide whether you're in the position to say
thanks, but there's a shop across town who'll take care of you.
You know?
Or like somebody told me recently, just close my eyes and click print.
Michael Riley: I, I'm glad that you, you said that about design, Tom.
It's something that I'm, I'm, every time I get the opportunity to, to preach that
to people I, in this industry, I, I do.
I think, and I, I think with, with the rise of computers and, and digital
technology, I think a lot of people in this industry have lost sight of
the fact that we are, we are in the design industry, we're in the marketing
industry, and our customers don't care about how the signs are made.
They care about how it looks.
Mm-hmm.
, you know, and I, I think that, you know, like, I, like I just said a
minute ago with, with, with that rise of technology, it's allowed
people to get into the industry that don't have the design chops to.
You know, to produce what the customers are, are wanting.
And, and I, I think the, the late nineties and the early two thousands were kind of a
sad time for the industry where everything was, you know, whatever, you know, font
bundle came with sign lab or whatever.
Mm-hmm.
. Tom McIltrot: But I, I think
, Bryant Gillespie: sorry, did I?
Aerial, VEA, , uh, what's
Michael Riley: the, what's the other one?
Olive Nord.
Everything was antique Olive.
Yeah.
I Or Euro style.
That was a good one too.
Yeah.
If you wanted something modern and contemporary.
I, yeah, I, I think that, and I think that's, that's something that Se Craft
did such a great job wa of, uh, was, was putting that first, you know, all
the other sign industry magazines, they, you know, all of 'em kind of touch on
design, but really they're, they're, they're much more manufacturing and,
and business driven, which is fine.
And that's all super important obviously.
But yeah, I think you, you know, you did such a great job of, of making.
You're making that point that the, you know, design is the front line
of what we're selling and it's the first thing people see and it's
the last thing they react to after they, their signs on their building.
And, and the emphasis has to be, be that, and, you know, even like Bob Boho did,
I'm saying that right, Bob Boho behing.
Yeah.
That's mean.
They were, they were amazing.
I mean, this, this guy taught me to think about how I'm laying out a, you know, a
for sale banner or a, you know mm-hmm.
a job site sign or something, and put, and not just straight line black and red
hellvetica, but, but actually put some serious thought into the layout on a, on
a, you know, a four by eight site sign.
Mm-hmm.
and, and like that's, that was such an eye-opener for me that, you
know, it doesn't have to be boring and plain and, and black and white.
Yeah.
And look like every other sign.
Tom McIltrot: And you know, the cool thing about design is once you get those
chops, once you get those fundamentals, you can, um, you gotta jump in.
You got a question, Pete?
Yeah, I'm
Peter Kourounis: sorry guys.
Hey, Tom.
It's very nice to meet you, sir.
I gotta jump out, but I just wanted to tell you, I just
wanted to ask you one question.
Sure.
Uh, and then I'll, I'll have to jump out, but I, I can't wait to hear the answer.
You mentioned the design.
Mike and I raised our fists in the air in celebration for that.
You
Bryant Gillespie: know, it's, it's a matter
Tom McIltrot: of where
Peter Kourounis: can our listeners, the people that are listening to this podcast
today, where, where can they go to?
In your experience from the resources, you know, where can they go to
like propel their design skills?
If design is what we're selling, what, what would your response
be to someone that says, how can I take my design team and like
elevate what we're currently doing?
Tom McIltrot: Yeah.
Yeah, that's a tough question, Peter, because there's
really not one single source.
Probably the closest thing we have to it is Mike Steven's book, uh,
mastering Layout, which, but it's a little bit of a complex re read.
It's, it's a, it's a challenging book to read sometimes that the principles
are there, the fundamentals, and then.
I guess the, the next best source I can think are all the things that
people have shared in se craft, you know, all the, the kind of, and you
know, the nice thing about the articles were they were just like nuggets.
You know, you didn't have to sit down and digest a whole
encyclopedia of, of information.
You could get one thing like Bob say ma uh, an art.
All the articles Bob wrote about on simplicity and, and,
and on we're on using script.
And I think it's best to learn those things one little bite at a time.
We've been doing a, a series of articles on the, on the site lately
on individual aspects of, of design.
Like last week I think it was, um, uh, use using copy blocks to message
blocks to break up and control copy.
A few weeks before that we did negative space.
And so those kind of, you know, learning those little, learning
about it a little bit at a time.
Is, I think, easier than trying to take it all in and, um, and then
critique your own work against it.
Uh, that's always hard.
You know, there probably need to be more workshops for, by outstanding
designers on how design works and learning the fundamentals.
You know, there's a, there's a bit of a design drain on the industry when,
uh, when computers came along because we lost some people to, uh, like web
design and graphic design where there was a, you make a better living over
there and do some cool stuff still.
And so we lost some of that.
But I do think there's a lot of folks who have returned and, um,
and are doing interesting work that we can still pick their brains and,
and see why they do what they do.
Michael Riley: So hopefully this isn't like a, a painful question to answer.
I apologize if it is.
What's your, how do you feel about the state of publishing right now?
Obviously you've moved, signed Craft online.
Mm-hmm.
, which is painful for me.
Honestly, like I, I, I hated to see that.
Like I said, I mean, just the tactile quality of the magazine
was, was a huge part of appeal.
How, how do you feel about that?
Tom McIltrot: How well you can imagine after 42 years of print,
print publishing, what, what a shift it was for us and it, it cannot,
we cannot call it the same mm-hmm.
there, it's a drastically different way to deliver information.
The, uh, you know, before it was a matter of designing spreads and, and
designing the whole magazine so that as you went through it, you found
what you needed and maybe you learned something that you were, was unexpected,
you know, in the next article.
And then we had that, we always tried to maintain a mix of like, some 3D
work and some truck lettering and some flat signs so that there was a little
bit for, of everything for everybody.
That's, that's impossible to do on, on the web.
You know, we, we do our two or three articles a week and we can't really.
Choreograph like you can with a, a print magazine.
To me, print will always be king.
It was a, it was a, uh, a great way to deliver information.
It's a tremendously portable source of information.
You can take it out on the porch with a cup of coffee and fold down corners Yes.
Of the pages and come back to Yes.
And, you know, I can never, half the time I can't find the article that, you know,
I, I'm plundering through my history sometimes looking for something I mm-hmm.
I saw a week ago.
But, but with a print magazine, like I say, fold a corner down, put a
post-it on it, come back to it later.
So, and, and I hear this that I hear all day long, a lot of our readers are older
readers who have been kind of begrudgingly drugged along into the digital world.
So, um, but um, you know, it is what it is.
It's it for us to see that.
I mean, even the printers, the printing companies that we used, For you, which
were big Midwestern web printers who printed and mailed small circulation
magazine like ours from the center of the country to take advantage of the postal
rates from coast to coast and stuff.
Most of them have folded or merged with other companies.
It, it's a literal bloodbath mm-hmm.
in the publishing industry that that's happened.
And, and it's not, it's not gonna stop.
It's not gonna come back.
There are successful special interest magazines that are, people
are doing now that are more, they call 'em Bookazine more or less.
They, they don't really go out a style outta date with a cover date so much.
They're on a single topic maybe and whatnot.
And those will probably be around, you know, they'll,
they'll, those will survive.
But as far as the serial publication where somebody's banging it out every
other month or every month though, that's getting harder and harder to do.
And, uh, some things you just miss terribly, like, where's the cover picture?
Where's the cover photo, you know?
Mm-hmm.
. So very often, you know, we get, somebody will send us a link to some photos and
we'll flip through there and you know, Dennis will look over my shoulder and
say, oh, there's a cover, you know?
Yeah.
But there is no cover
. Bryant Gillespie: It's definitely not the same.
You know, I was, yeah.
I was talking to Mike the other day and I was like, I was, I was like,
my wife is a deer has hit her car.
The car is totaled.
And we'd been car shopping all day, but, Hmm.
I had got a, I got a physical catalog from a sign supplier that
was like 150, 200 pages thick, and I thought those were dead.
And it was like, okay, like at least there's one bright spot.
Yeah.
. Because along with Sign Craft, like looking through all the, the
catalogs of like sign suppliers was like how you found it out about
new products and things like that.
Right.
Like, oh, hey, I've never tried this.
This particular vinyl or, or whatever before.
So there,
Tom McIltrot: there's no doubt.
We, we made a tremendous amount of progress thanks to the
internet and, and how we can share information and connect everything.
But at the same time, some really good things were lost in the shuffle.
You know, some, the tactical experience, the, the way to, to be
able to refer back to stuff is easy.
And, you know, in print magazines, the articles often took on a life
of their own because people returned to them and they also referred to
them in future articles and stuff.
And you can make that connection.
Digital information doesn't have that kind of life.
You know, really the, the articles we do now, kind of in a few weeks, they're
kind of just back there in the archives, you know, on the webpage and, yeah.
So you don't have that kind of reaching back to like, somebody sent me a picture
of their, of their stack of sign crafts a year or so ago and, uh, they were
dog-eared beyond recognition . They, they were, you could barely tell that
they, I mean, some of these were from back when we were Saddles station, you
know, had Staples in and, and they, the staples had long since given way
and it was just this pile of, of pages.
But man, I thought when I saw man, somebody had a really good time
here looking through all those.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
They got some, swipe some ideas and sold some jobs and That's cool.
We, what's
Michael Riley: cool about magazines that I don't think a website or
online magazine will ever be able to.
Accomplish is when you get a, a copy of Seine Craft, you know, a
printed version of Seine Craft, you're gonna read it cover to cover.
You're gonna look at every single page and there's gonna be articles in there
that you might not otherwise have read, but because it's right there,
you're like, oh yeah, that's cool.
That's interesting.
Jersey style, semi-truck letter.
I'll never letter a semi-truck in New Jersey, but I'm still gonna read the
article cause the pictures are pretty and I'm gonna learn something from it.
And I, you know, I think when that kind of information moves online,
it's not, it nothing forces you to stop and pause and, and, and absorb
that information for a second.
You're gonna click on what appeals to you, what you're looking for, and
you're gonna, the rest of it's just gonna kind of become background noise.
And I, I think that losing that, I think.
Saddest thing for me because that's how I learned so much.
Wasn't like, okay, I'm only gonna read this article on this issue, but I'm
gonna read the entire damn article.
Yes.
The issue from front to back multiple times, like you said,
and then mine looked the same way.
Like mine are, a lot of mine are just destroyed because I've gone
back and re-read them cover to cover every time, cuz I'm looking
for one article, but I'm gonna read the whole thing when I open it up.
Yes.
And, and that just, it, it soak soaks into your brain and in a way that online
content just never will be able to.
And, and that's what I think bums out the most.
Mike
. Tom McIltrot: Absolutely.
Mike.
That, that was so well said, . That was, uh, that's worth, that's worth watching
this podcast over for what you just said because the, um, it, it's actually, and
I've read some about this, I've read a lot about it, that it's changing how
we read and how we think, you know, online information changes, how we read.
You'll notice.
Things have gotten shorter and shorter.
You know, a lot of people are saying 200 words is, is like
the two minute YouTube video.
You know, they say, you know, if your, if your YouTube video runs over
two minutes, you know, you lose x number of percentage of your viewers.
So the attention span is getting smaller and, and it forces
people to write differently.
Mm-hmm.
and to kind of jam all.
Information early enough in the article that, that, rather than have, have
it like a meal where you could give somebody their little appetizer, then
a little bit later serve on the main course and finish up with dessert.
You kind of gotta slop it all on one plate now in the first 200 words and
try to get 'em to, uh, and hope they'll stay with you for the rest of it.
Brian,
Bryant Gillespie: bulleted?
Yes.
Well, I just, from my own experience, I'll tell you, like I, I've written
for several industry magazines at this point, but it's, it is for all online
content and very frustrating to try and jam a topic into 500 words, especially
like something that you're passionate about and you feel like there's.
Not enough information out there.
It's very difficult to do.
But that's, like you said, that's the attention span at this point, right?
It has to be bulleted.
You've got three, 400 words to, to teach somebody something, but you, how
do you, you can't, how do you do that?
Tom McIltrot: Mm-hmm.
, right?
You know, and when you're writing for SEARCHs, you've gotta repeat phrases
so many times and all that stuff.
It, it, it really changes the tone of the, of the writing
and the feel of the writing.
So yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's a big loss to in that regard.
Michael Riley: So, so Tom, what can we all do?
What can I do to get sign craft back in print?
Well, whatever happened, can we make it happen?
, can we start a kick, kick Kickstarter
Tom McIltrot: or something here?
I dunno.
I have had so many requests like that.
Like, I, I don't know.
I, we've thought about revisiting a, a revisiting print as either
like an annual or a semi-annual.
Magazine and, um, so there, there's always the possibility for one
thing, we, we love doing them.
So that, that's the greatest impetus.
And I, I, I believe that there are enough of us out there that value print that,
that we could, could get an audience.
So it, it's, it's not out outside the real of possibility, but it's, it's, let's
Bryant Gillespie: set up a pre-order right after this market
for the annual edition cycle.
, Michael Riley: honestly, like if you even just did like an annual, you
know, 300 page bound book, you know, something with a hard cover mm-hmm.
, that was like a collector's item.
I, I would totally pay several hundred dollars for that.
Like, without even thinking about it.
I mean, it, it would, well, thank you.
And I'm not alone in that.
I know that a lot of people would, and I or I, I'd pony up a couple hundred bucks
a month, a year for a subscription to, you know, a, a quarterly publication as well.
I mean, I, I just uhhuh , I, I think there's a lot of people out there are
that are just absolutely desperate for that and, and, and, and missing that.
And I, I know like, It's a tiny industry, and no matter how much we're all willing
to pay, it'll, it'll never overcome the hurdle of, of, you know, the current
state of publishing and how expensive and difficult it would be to, to, to recreate
a magazine like SE Craft, you know?
But man, I wish we, I I wish you would do it.
. . Tom McIltrot: Well, it would be fun, and like I say, I, I, I'll, uh, I'll
keep it on the table here for us.
So, , um, the, uh, you know, the, the, there is, there's just something about,
and I mean, all of us had special interest magazines that we got back
in those days if you fished or if you were a photographer or whatnot.
And so waiting for the, that copy of that magazine, whether it was SE Craft
or Popular Photography, Um, you know, outdoor sports, American sportsman.
So waiting for the magazine was part of the, the deal, you know, getting,
getting the mail that early in the month and expecting to find your, your
magazine there, and then you just kinda scrolled it away and save some time
that night to start flipping through it.
So, yeah, it'd be fun to, to, to help revive some of that.
Michael Riley: W well, if you ever decide to and you need some extra
manpower, you, you let us know because we will be there with bells
on to help you, or at least I will.
That's pretty cool.
I guess I won't speak for, but I'll,
Bryant Gillespie: yeah, no, uh, that's cool.
Yeah, I've got, I've got three little girls to think about, but
yeah, my dad, well you guys are on the, the other side of Florida.
My dad's in Pensacola, but, um, yeah.
I think we can make it work.
I'm down.
Yeah.
. Tom McIltrot: Yeah.
I'll move to Florida.
Michael Riley: Yeah, absolutely.
If, if
, Bryant Gillespie: if Mike is gonna go to Florida, you know, we're doing
something now because Mike hates the, the bombing weather down there.
Michael Riley: not a big Florida person, but, but I would totally
do it in a heartbeat if, if that opportunity ever take.
Okay.
Tom McIltrot: Well I can tell you a hurricane, a hurricane like that last
one will, will make a lot of people, not Florida people, , especially some
of the, those of us who are here for it.
So , but maybe the Florida reputation has been seriously
tarnished there with that, but, so
Michael Riley: for sure.
Bryant Gillespie: Well, uh, this feels like a, a pretty good closing point guys.
Um, Tom, is there anything you want to say to the audience before we sign off?
Like any advice you want to give, like,
Tom McIltrot: I guess I do, I guess I do.
There's, there's a secret that I've heard over and over again in, in the
from sign people about, Being successful at this and, and that is show up.
You'd be surprised how many people I've told that we published a
magazine for sign people whose their comeback was sign people.
I called four sign shots before I could get one to, to come over or,
or you know, I went and talked to a guy, he never called me back.
You know, that, that is bad for business and it's bad for the industry.
And so really, you know, customer service is, is critical.
And, um, you know, the whole underpromise and over-deliver concept, the shops
that I know who are most successful, they nail it on the customer relations
and that idea of delivering stuff on time or ahead of time and it
contributes to their, to their success.
So I.
Everybody.
That's a, a little secret I think that I've heard over and over again.
That could, um, could work for in everybody's favor and you can charge
more when you do that, when you, when you meet people's needs, I think now more
than ever, when you satisfy customers and meet their needs, you can charge for it.
Bryant Gillespie: So, absolutely.
Yeah.
That's, that's so simple, so understated.
But it's like hugely important what you just said, like, yeah, kinda show
up, answer the phones, call people back, do what you said you're gonna do.
Yeah.
It's so, yeah, it goes
Tom McIltrot: without saying kinda, it's kinda like, look back to the, to
when you were first in business, you know, and, and the phone wasn't ringing
and, and somebody did call all the way across town for a sign for a hotdog shop.
You dropped everything and burned it over there, and then you put a little
extra juice in the design and, and you got it over there and installed
it on a Saturday, and, and they loved it and they were happy with you even
if it was a mediocre job at the time.
But that kind of, you intrigued customers like that.
Make some customers forever for life.
Absolutely.
Michael Riley: That's well
Bryant Gillespie: said.
Absolutely.
Mike, any pardon shots?
Michael Riley: I, I can't say it any better than that, honestly.
Like that's, that's a brilliant piece of advice.
I, I think we should probably do a podcast episode on, you know, on, on
that topic, to be honest with you.
I think it's something that we've not touched on, um, too aggressively
yet, and maybe we can get Tom back to to, to chat about that, that
end of the industry a little bit.
No, I, I, I, I totally agree.
I mean, I think showing up is 90% of the battle and
Tom McIltrot: Yeah.
You know, I, I can tell you too that I, I have, and all of us, bill, Dennis,
John, we, we have the utmost respect.
For signed people because they have a really unique business, a really unique
hole to fill in the economic picture, and they don't give very many kudos.
Usually they get dragged on or, um, neglected.
But, um, to me, they're some of the most interesting creative people in
the business world, and they, they do more to for how a community looks and
feels than almost everything else, maybe even more than the architecture.
So, like I say, my, my hat is always off to every sign person who's, who's
out there slugging it out and, uh, and putting up with all the bologna
that, that they have to deal with.
And they're, and they're still churning out cool stuff.
Michael Riley: Yeah,
Bryant Gillespie: definitely.
Definitely.
Yeah.
That's a, that's a good parting line, . I, I, Tom, uh, I, I, I don't
even know if I need to ask this, but how can, uh, anybody who was interested
learn more about you and sign craft.
Tom McIltrot: Oh, okay.
Yeah, just hop over to sy craft.com.
Dot com.
. Yep.
Pretty easy.
Bryant Gillespie: If, if nobody, if, if somebody is listening and
doesn't know sign craft shame on you.
Number one, . Get over to Sy Craft right now.
Check it out.
. Um, do you guys have any, like, back issues for sale?
Like, uh, or those are we do we
Tom McIltrot: have about, uh, about, I think it's just over half
of the issues still available in.
Oh, nice.
Great.
Re uh, resource, you know, I, I've been meaning to put together some
bundled, uh, copies either by the year or something, some packages
and Oh yeah, definitely work.
Yeah.
That way we could work the shipping down to where it was affordable
because they are expensive to ship.
But, we'll, we'll work on that and get something on the site maybe
where folks can get a, you know, get 20 issues that they can get back
through back, go back through and snag some of these great articles.
Cuz so often when I look back through these articles, these magazines,
I see that this great stuff that people have shared, it knocks me out.
I, I think that folks wrote articles and gave away really good, solid
ideas and, and information and it's a shame that they're, that they're
just sitting on a shelf somewhere.
So, but yeah, we'll
Bryant Gillespie: look into that.
You guys should definitely do that because it's, you know, a
sign craft to me was always about those nuggets that you mentioned.
Mm-hmm.
like, hey, I, if I could just get one nugget out of the magazine.
Like I, I, that's going to, I, I could use that nugget for a lifetime, so.
Mm-hmm.
. Yeah, for sure.
That's a, that's a good point to stop.
Tom.
Wow.
Thanks for coming on.
This has been great to have you on.
Um, I think I, I, one of my goals at the start of the podcast was to
have you on as a guest, so I could definitely check that box now.
I appreciate you, uh, Mike, anything
Michael Riley: else?
I'm just geeking out over here.
I don't think I've smiled this much in throughout an entire episode.
Like honestly, I don't, it sounds kind of insane to say, but like you've,
you and, and what you've done for the industry, I mean, it's al it
is always been inspirational to me.
So it's been, it's, it's really an honor to have you here and to meet
you and, and we really appreciate your time, really, really do well.
Thanks so much.
I, we'd love to have you back if Don't, don't be a stranger.
I mean, we, okay.
Glad to more information and knowledge and, and stories in your
head, I can imagine than just about anybody else in this industry.
And I feel like we should, you know, make it like a quarterly thing or something.
Just have Tom on and tell his stories from back in the day.
like, how cool would that be,
? Tom McIltrot: Well, thank you so much and thank Peter for me.
I, I really appreciate the invitation and, and I really enjoyed, uh,
hanging out with y'all today.
That, that's, uh, It's a pretty good feeling to hear all those
good things about Seine Craft, so I'm pretty well juiced for
the, for the next quarter, so I'm
Bryant Gillespie: excellent.
Great.
Well, Tom, we appreciate you.
Thank
Tom McIltrot: you.
Thanks, Tom.
All right.
Take care.
Thank you guys for everybody.
Take care.
All right.
We'll see you.
Bye-bye.
You're welcome.
Bryant Gillespie: All right, so that is the episode, Mike.
Rapid takeaways, rapid fire takeaways.
What, what are, what are we closing this one with?
I, I feel like that one was a killer episode.
I
Michael Riley: don't, I don't even know where to, where to go with
this one, to be honest with you.
Yeah, that was just, that was a like a, Icing on the cake of my career to talk
to him and, and interview him on that.
It was, it was really cool.
I mean, he is definitely one of my idols in the industry and
just a, a wealth of knowledge and history in this, in this industry.
I, I think, uh, it's cool to hear some of his stories.
I like, I really would love to have him back on and hear more, cuz I, I think
that guy could probably talk for, for hours and hours about his experiences
and the people he knows in the industry.
But yeah, it was, it was awesome.
Take away, I think he reinforced something that I'm always preaching
about and that is, we're selling, we're selling design first and foremost.
We're selling marketing and, and you know, if you're not putting your emphasis
on putting out quality designs out there, you're hurting your business.
You're hurting your customer's business in the industry as a whole,
Bryant Gillespie: a hundred percent.
Like if you're not doing the work, if you're not acting like a
professional, like a, like it or not, when you take a job from a
customer, you are now responsible for whatever outcome they're looking for.
Whether that's driving more customers to their business with a sign.
Or promoting awareness for their cause, or, uh, even just driving
signups to the peewee football team, whate, whatever that is.
Like, you've gotta rise to the occasion and, and make it
Michael Riley: happen.
So, yeah.
And it's a, it's a topic that's come up more than once on this,
you know, with our guests.
You know, Dan Antonelli obviously we've mentioned that was definitely
a big, you know, big pusher of that.
And it's interesting to hear that continue to come up time and time
again, which I think says something.
I hope people are paying attention to that.
And I also really like that Tom closed it out by saying,
just show up, answer the phone.
You know?
Right.
Do the work, . Yeah.
Yeah.
Which is hard for some sign people to do.
I mean, we've all been there, but Yeah.
I What a, what a great conversation.
I really enjoyed that.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
Yeah, I did as well.
Uh, you know, to me it was more about a, just taking nuggets from that conversation
and taking nuggets from Sy Craft, like that's a, that really resonated with me,
you know, over the years I feel like, When, when I've tried to like, take on
too much at, at one time or like, Hey, I'm gonna learn this, or I'm gonna learn that.
I always struggled.
So, you know, just commit to getting a little bit better each day.
And that was, that's what was great about getting the, the published magazine of
Sy Craft was just like, Hey, here's one technique that I could probably use in the
next week or two for a particular project.
Mm-hmm.
, you know, I could be inspired by the rest of it, but usually I always got one nice
little technique or layout that I might be able to emulate in my own designs.
Michael Riley: So to, to not take at least one thing away from every issue
is sign craft I think is impossible or you're just not reading it.
should, like, everyone is, is amazing.
Yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: Cool.
All right.
Well, before we close out, I would like to thank our sponsor, GCI Digital.
If you are looking for a wholesale or trade printing partner for large
format or wide format or grand format printing, I, I've seen those new
printers that TJ and the team have got.
They are massive.
Uh, if you are looking for a trade printer who has good customer service
like we just talked about, look up print gci.com, gci, digital owner, TJ Beat Act.
We had 'em on the podcast, episode nine.
I wanna say check 'em out.
If you would like, if you are interested in being a guest on the podcast, send us
an email at, hey, better sign shop.com.
We'd love to hear your story.
We really like to talk to people.
As you could tell, this is like two hours by now, I'm sure.
If you are a sign shop owner, make sure you look up the Better
Sign Shop community on Facebook.
It is our free community for sign shop owners.
And, uh, if you like everything else, take a look at Mike's website, letterbox
Sign design, scope, some of his work.
Just don't steal it.
Come after you.
Alright, what is it?
D M C A.
You'll get the take down notice.
Be inspired, don't blindly copy.
Michael Riley: Thanks, Brent.
Sounds great.
Love it.
Bryant Gillespie: All right.
All right guys.
We'll catch you on the next one.
Thanks for listening.
We appreciate you.
Michael Riley: If you liked this episode,
Tom McIltrot: make sure you hit subscribe to get all the latest episodes, and check
out our website, better sign shop.com.
Get free resources and helpful tools on growing your shop.
Thanks for listening.