Alex: Some client wanted to
pay for my services in Bitcoin.
And being a novice and not really
knowing what it was, I said, no, I
think we'll stay with standard cash.
And that definitely came back
to bite me significantly.
Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud.
I'm Corey Quinn.
I've mentioned periodically that my wife
is a corporate attorney because last
time I checked this morning, she was.
But people often misunderstand that
to think that, oh, she must handle
all of my obviously Massive legal
needs because I shoot my mouth
off for sport as well as a living.
That is in no way true.
Alex King is the founder of Archetype
Legal and our outside general counsel.
Alex, thank you for taking the time
to speak to me in one of those rare
moments where I don't think billable
hours are being applied to it, but
please correct me if I'm wrong.
Alex: No billable hours here and
it's a pleasure to be here, Corey.
Thanks for having me.
This
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I've always enjoyed working with you.
And to be fair, I've worked with a number
of attorneys over the course of my career.
Not always in the way that people would
expect me to have to have to deal with
attorneys, but One of the reasons I
don't find myself getting my short suit
off three times a day is because I know
where the lines are, and there are a lot
of moving parts behind the scenes that,
that make sure that I's are dotted, T's
are crossed, and I actually understand
what concepts such as defamation tend
to mean, which is not most of what
you do for us, I want to be clear.
Went off and started your own
firm years ago, and we were one
of your initial cohort of clients.
You have effectively handled all of the
heavy lifting around, uh, the formation
of the company at the Duckbill Group.
You've handled a number of strange
issues here, and Something that has
surprised me consistently is how
frequently you refer us to other attorneys
outside of your core area of practice.
So let's begin with a very high level
here for folks who do not have consistent
ongoing dealings with attorneys,
both professionally and socially.
Where, what is the actual role of an
attorney when you have a business,
startup, small business, or otherwise?
What is the purpose of paying you folks?
Alex: Well, it probably depends
a little bit on the field.
I can only speak for us, but in our That
standpoint as kind of corporate counsel.
We're primarily trying to, you know, have
like a two bucket approach, right, both
from a risk analysis, trying to make sure
we're not going to step into some type
of a mess, as well as ensuring that the
house and the foundation of the company
is on solid ground, such that if we were
ever to be audited as part of some kind of
situation, If the company were to someday
be sold or someday be acquired or raised
capital or whatever that might be that we
kind of have all of our records in a row
have been compliant throughout to avoid
kind of liability that can come with that.
And so, you know, we are kind of
collaborating with the people in
charge at the top, such as yourself.
And other colleagues at Duckbill
and your firm to try to kind of
be that kind of support system
to make sure that's all aligned.
Corey: I think that globally there is a
dramatic misunderstanding, and most of
the companies play into this a fair bit,
that lawyers are the ones that set the
ground rules that say, oh, you're not
allowed to do this, hard no, full stop.
I've never known that to be true.
My experience has always been that
you identify risks, and you identify
risks, But the decision is basically not
something that we're able to delegate.
It's something that we have to solve
for ourselves, for better or worse,
once we have all the relevant inputs
and can accurately and reasonably
identify likelihoods and risks.
I wish it were otherwise.
I wish we could just say, tell
us what to do and we'll do it.
But the answer always becomes, it depends.
Is that a common failure mode for
people who are dealing with attorneys?
Does it ever go away?
Am I just a particularly slow student
when it comes to these things, which is.
Alex: No, I think you're spot on.
I think that ultimately a good attorney
in this kind of role is going to be
able to explain in very clear terms what
the risks might be, what the downsides
could be, and what the upsides could
be from taking a various approach.
From that point, it's ultimately, in our
opinion, the board's decision, the CEO's
decision, whoever it's kind of delegated
to, to have to kind of make that choice.
I mean, as a fellow small business
owner, I mean, I wish this statement
wasn't true, but in no way can I say
with certainty that for, you know,
the six years we've been around,
we've followed the law to, you know,
exactitude at every, at every position.
And you kind of have to ultimately Try
to kind of decide, okay, if I'm going to
tip the scales here, what part of this
concerns me more than others, but outside
of the person potentially being like
a general counsel inside a very large
firm, I don't think it's outside counsel.
It's their role to tell you
exactly what you must do.
Absence some situations where probably
is a little bit more black and white.
Corey: There's I guess a, a
craving for certainty in areas
in which I do not have expertise.
Uh, it feels like you and Dan Shapiro,
our CFO, who's been on a previous
episode of this podcast, uh, team up to
almost sing in stereo at, at Mike and
I around the idea of anything coming
to taxes of this is not tax advice or
advice around anything touching that.
It's great.
I guess it's time for us to actually
talk to a tax attorney around
these things and lo and behold.
They still don't tell us what to do
when we talk to a tax attorney, but
they don't have to disclaim everything
they say through a lens of I am not
up to speed on the latest nuances
of this tax, this tax code aspect.
There's a, from my perspective, it's
not even about being upset to pay taxes.
I enjoy living in society.
I just find the process of
adherence to be nebulous.
And usually I'm okay with nebulous
requirements, except this one
carries the force of law in a
way that few other things do.
I, I just want that entire thing
to go away to someone else and tell
me to whom to write a check and
how many zeros go at the end of it.
And then, at most, just give me
a thing to sign, don't make me
read form after form after form.
Unfortunately, that fantasy
does not generally adhere to
the way the business will work.
Alex: Yeah, and that, that, I
understand that frustration.
I experience a similar frustration,
whether it be, you know, my own advisors
trying to figure out how I could
handle my firm and taxes and finances.
And so I've found that a question I
will often ask them, and if I'm going
to do this as the customer, I should
probably have the same courtesy back
to the client, is what would you do?
Right.
And so frequently I will couch that
as an answer to clients saying like,
if it was my call or if this was my
decision, I would lean towards this.
And here is why, while also giving
the other opportunities such that
it's not seeming as though like
it should be solely in my hand.
Corey: There's an interesting divide
in that we're a consulting company.
The only thing that we provide is
advice when you distill it all down.
The, the client gets to figure out what
it is that they're going to do based
upon the findings that we present.
We identify costs, risks, options, etc.
But the ultimate choice is up to them.
That's all that we do.
We don't do any actual quote unquote
actual hands on implementation work.
You sort of straddle a weird line
there, because you absolutely provide
advice in the way that we've just
been discussing, but you also do a lot
of form filling and actual handling
of filings for us and the rest.
Do you view those as being effectively two
different types of work in the way that
we do, or is that sort of part and parcel
of being an attorney and that's not really
how you view the nature of your work?
Alex: No, I think, I think that's spot on.
I mean, I think that we ultimately, I'll
give you a really quick example, right?
A lot of times with AB5 and the new
kind of labor laws that have come
down as far as classifying people as
employees, there becomes this interesting
middle ground of like, Hey, I kind
of want to check out this person.
I kind of want to see if
they're going to work.
But ultimately, the way in which I'm
probably going to use them for the
first two to four weeks is probably
closer to an employee, right?
We lay out the concerns, the potential
liability, explain that to them.
But then as we're talking about it,
they ultimately decide, I hear you.
I still want to classify
them as a consultant.
Can you help us prepare that agreement?
We then execute on the choice.
So I agree that it allows us to
kind of actually then get our hands
dirty and, and, and do the work.
Whereas, as opposed to just saying
like, here's the potential advice,
now we're going to step aside.
Corey: I know that obviously you can't
necessarily talk about the specifics
of any client work, but I brought my
own example that we can talk about.
As, I don't think I've mentioned this on
the show before, but this is our first
week, as we're recording this, in an
office that we have taken in downtown
San Francisco, in the financial district.
And when I went on entirely too many
office tours with too many brokers
talking to folks about where we
were going to, to find ourselves, we
finally found an office and then we
got, uh, a lease is what they call it.
This feels like a textbook that I could
knock off a table and inadvertently
kill a small to mid sized dog with.
But it was a, but it
was, okay, this is great.
Do I just sign this and wind
up sending it back as is?
And I read the thing, and it
was hilariously one sided.
So I sent that over to you folks,
and got back in return something
that was also hilariously one
sided in the opposite direction.
One of my favorite red lines was the
entire massive paragraph only had one
word changed, and it went from tenant to
landlord in the responsibility section.
And it was great seeing
some of these things.
I half expect to be laughed out of the
room, but apparently this is a very
normal, process when you're dealing
with real estate negotiations, something
I have never done in anything other
than a personal, uh, personal contact.
That was, that was a fantastic
experience from my perspective.
And I was also delighted by the
fact that there were two versions
of every document that we got back.
One of them was, all right, here's
our thoughts, comments, and the rest.
And if you agree with all of this,
great, here's a second document that
has those red lines in a format you
can send externally that doesn't
show our internal conversations
and thought process around it.
It was, oh wow, less work
for me in Microsoft Word,
which is always a blessing.
And that was just, that was just a, it
felt like a white glove experience in an
area that I knew absolutely nothing about.
Alex: Yeah, and Elise is a great
example, right, is where like, you
know, it's context is so important.
Right.
And I, we often try to kind of talk this
through with clients, which is like,
Hey, how bad do you want the space?
Also, what's your business?
Are you a first time business?
Or are you somebody that has a proven
track record that would allow us to
negotiate the actual owners, not having
a personal guarantee much easier.
If we can prove like, Hey,
this business has a solid
background, it's unlikely to fail.
And so that's where it's like, you
can't just have a cookie cutter
approach to the problem at hand.
Certainly, there's going to be some stuff
that like almost no matter the tenant,
uh, and their background, you're going
to want to push forward to try to kind
of level the playing field, but, but
it just comes down so much to the facts
and circumstances, and so that kind of
circles back nicely to what you talked
about where it's like, hey, listen, like,
We're going to understand the problem
and try to kind of apply this solution.
But at the end of the day, some of it
still is going to come down to like, I
really don't want to lose this space.
I'm nervous.
We're being too aggressive here.
And so I want you to kind of
taper it down, even though if we
were that aggressive, it would
technically be better for you.
You know, if we could get them
through, we have to kind of balance
how the landlord might react.
Corey: It also is helpful, given the
nature of how we do our business, that
we're, at any point, given the size of
our company and the fact that we run
this place like, you know, responsible
grown ups, at any point during this
process, we could have cut a check
for the entire value of the lease
term at any point to, to basically
handle any weird issues that arise.
Like, well, hypothetically,
in an acquisition, who does
responsibility lie with, etc., etc.
It's It's not that big of an office.
It is not a material component
of this business's future.
So, worst case, all right, here, the lease
is now paid out, we're done, we're gone.
The end is a nice, comfortable
place to find ourselves in.
But there's, there's always the question
of, is this even going to be an issue?
In some cases, yes, massively.
And you were great at identifying those
as well as highlighting areas that,
at scale, this becomes important, but
it's likely not going to be for you.
The context was so incredibly helpful.
Alex: Yeah.
I mean, and that's, that's
so different, right?
From a startup that has a term sheet
in hand to have millions of dollars
potentially in the bank account in two
to three months, however, kind of the
deal goes and in anticipation of that
starting to lock in an office space.
But Hey, we've seen deals fall apart.
And if the three founders are personally
guaranteeing this lease and now,
you know, something goes sideways.
COVID hits, who knows?
The world kind of gets wonky on us.
It's a lot scarier.
And so, you know, that's where we have
to kind of like, kind of lay this out,
explain the risks and help the client
make a more informed decision about
how to possibly attack the next step.
Corey: Few things are better for
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I have to say, I don't necessarily know
that we are that unique, but it feels
like we probably push the boundaries
of what most businesses our size tends
to have as far as legal questions.
For example, I don't know how many of
your other clients come to you as like,
we're a small consulting company, and
we're negotiating an office lease, and
we want to make sure our contracts are
great, and negotiating deals with clients.
And also, we have a mascot that's
a psychotic, uh, cartoon platypus
that periodically does parody
songs of, uh, lampooning various
executives for their birthday.
Uh, what do we have to worry about as
far as As effectively, parity being a
protected version, a protected option
under fair use doctrine, etc, etc.
It seems like we sometimes are kind
of all over the map as far as the
legal questions we bring to you.
Alex: In a good way.
I mean, I, I very much enjoy that.
Uh, it makes it interesting, and yeah, I
mean, I think there's usually two buckets.
And this is just my definition.
We have clients that are small businesses.
And as you and I talked about over dinner,
those are the ones that are actually
just trying to make money year over year.
That's my definition.
Uh, a little bit more every year is
great, but they're not necessarily trying
to kind of 20x, 100x somebody's money.
And then there's startups who are okay
being kind of lost leaders for a long
period of time until they're acquired.
Uh, Duckville falling into that again.
Uh, kind of more small business category,
but with obviously a little bit more
personality being exuded, uh, because
so often, like, consultants, I find, are
just trying to effectively say, like,
Our reputation is going to be on our
work because, you know, they're very
good at it as opposed type of thing,
as opposed to kind of saying, like,
actually, we are going to allow some kind
of creative marketing or other outlets or
leveraging technology podcast platforms.
So we definitely don't have as many
duck bills in our portfolio as I would
like, because duck bill is a lot of fun.
But you're spot on that like, yeah,
I would say you're attacking it
from from a unique perspective.
Corey: Something else that arose from
that dinner that I've mentioned with
a few people since we had dinner and I
found that there was a certain universal
level of surprise that that was a thing.
And I in turn was surprised
that anyone was surprised.
But you mentioned at one point
when I asked, Oh, where do
your various clients come from?
Which, you know, as someone who has
a business, I kind of want to know
if you discovered something great as
far as getting your brand out there.
It turns out that you've discovered
some of the same things that
we have discovered, which is
word of mouth works super well.
But something you mentioned about
a client that you had without
ever disclosing their identity.
Was that it started out as you were
reviewing an equity agreement for
an employee who is taking a job.
It's, oh yeah, that makes sense.
But when I've talked to people about that,
I've heard a lot of surprise that, wait,
as an employee, when you're, when you're
signing an employment agreement, you You
have a lawyer look at it and validate
that the, look at the equity thing?
Like what, what negotiating
power do you have?
Well, apparently more than
these people tend to think.
How often do you find that you're
doing reviews of things like employment
agreements, equity agreements, and
in those scenarios, how much latitude
does someone have to really push back?
Alex: I would say that the latitude to
push back is probably not significant.
In other words, you know, If the offer
letter is that it's going to be a four
year vesting schedule, one year cliff,
it's, if it's going to be this amount
of options, if it's going to be this
or that, um, I find that a lot of the
value because look, having either drafted
or reviewed probably at this point,
thousands of these type of situations, I
mean, I can get through these documents
pretty quickly and, and provide a
pretty solid framework that is just.
For a lot of people, um, my brother
included who, who joined us as startup
and had, you know, stock options,
I'm able to kind of explain like,
Hey, this is actually how these work.
This is actually how
you're going to see value.
And there's strategy and standpoints
as far as like when to exercise
with potentially could have like
real long term gains for you.
So I think the value exercise, if
you're going to engage a lawyer,
as somebody that's joining a
startup is not through the lens of.
Hey, I'm going to be able to
now negotiate all of these very
customized, very favorable terms.
That's usually not it, so much as
making sure A, it aligns and there's
not kind of, you know, something wonky
that just is an administrative error.
B, explaining kind of how, you
know, this is going to work
and the value that can be done.
And then C, I mean, this may sound
incredibly simple, but I, I've had
nightmare and horror stories of
people because, you know, the language
always says in the offer letter.
Subject to board approval,
we will grant you X, right?
And then they just assume that that
offer letter has done it, right?
They've been granted the
options, they're good to go.
And two years later, because startups
move quickly, they forgot to ever do it.
Now they're valued at an
entirely different time.
Um, everything is messed up.
Maybe they're even leaving the company
and they've never received them.
And they've potentially lost out on a ton.
So even just kind of beating them over
the head of like, do not let this pass
without actually receiving your option
and executing it and save people a ton
of like, you know, and again, it sounds
so simple, but when you're in the heat of
it, you're getting a new job and all this
stuff, this stuff slips through the crack.
Corey: It's easy to do that.
There's so much paperwork that
feels like it's pro forma, but
a lot of that is important and
accrues benefit directly to you.
I have found that employees have
always been somewhat surprised in
the aggregate to learn that you can
absolutely negotiate a job offer.
Taking the first offer is always something
that doesn't feel like it's, it's the
right path for an awful lot of folks.
And I see that even, my lease
story is a perfect example of this.
There's this sense that if you
push back with red lines, you're
You'll get, you basically just
torpedoed the entire conversation
and the deal is off the table.
I've heard a couple of scattered stories
of that happening to employees when they
try to negotiate their offer letter.
And generally either it is a
psychotic startup environment
where they don't understand how
business works, or very rarely,
well okay, send me the email thread.
And then it's, oh dear.
Yeah, the way that you, the way
that you pushed back on this, if
someone is on the other side reading
this, of how does this person think
a negotiation is supposed to work?
They're suddenly waving a giant red flag.
We have a great excuse
to not proceed with this.
Whoo, we dodged a
generalized bullet on this.
That, that tends to be the two
scenarios that I have seen.
I, I don't think you ever lose anything
worth, that is worth keeping if you
negotiate politely in your own behalf.
And sometimes there is
no flexibility in these.
But I've never, as a business owner
myself, I've never held it against
someone when they come back and
negotiate with me on those things.
I can't imagine doing that.
Alex: Right, and I think it
depends on the negotiation, right?
If you kind of, you know, you're asking
to triple your salary or whatever,
obviously there's always ranges.
But there can just even be tactics
that go a really long way, right?
And it depends on the size of the startup
and where it's at in its life cycle.
But a tactic we've seen work for
people is Look, like the option
price is still incredibly low.
It's still at a very low valuation.
Maybe this party is leaving, um, some
other job opportunity in which they, you
know, got a big exit, so they actually
do have a decent amount of cash on hand.
And, you know, the offer letter says
we're going to give you this at four
years, one year vesting schedule.
Maybe it's easy to negotiate.
Hey, listen, I'd be prepared
to exercise all of this now.
Like, can you let me do an early exercise?
On this option so I can start my
holding period so I can increase
the chances that downstream maybe
I will get qualified small business
stock exemption at the time we exit.
Those type of things don't change the
number of options you got, they just
kind of change the procedures and for
both sides that can be a win win like
neither side can feel the startup can
feel like they're not giving up too much
and the other side can feel like they're
further along to like a higher up time.
Corey: It's always interesting when people
read advice on the internet instead of
actually talking to someone who can look
at the specifics of their situation and
come off with, frankly, ludicrous ideas.
Like, I've talked to people before who
are saying, Oh, well I'm going to ask
if they can increase my 401k match.
It's, Yeah, absolutely not.
It would be easier, without exaggeration,
for them to reform the company as
a differently structured entity.
Because there's a law called ERISA
that explicitly dictates whether or
not, how you have to handle equity
compensation in the retirement context.
Or any kind of compensation
in the retirement context.
And asking that on some level, it
shows a certain lack of sophistication
on the part of the asker.
So again, a big part of where I have
found value in working with you is
not only getting the guidance, and
yes, I admit, in my case, getting
the forms filled out, that, that is
helpful, but also in understanding
what the unspoken expectations
and norms are in these things.
Because you don't necessarily want
to be the only person who has ever
flagged a particular aspect of an
agreement if that's not material to
what it is you're trying to get across.
Alex: Very good point.
And just to kind of circle back to the
lease discussion earlier, every lease I've
ever reviewed, Literally, I think, 100%,
all the, the landlord says every time,
like, this place is not ADA compliant.
Or, or, I'm sorry, we have not
actually certified that it is ADA
compliant, is what I meant to say.
And so, you certainly can revise the
language to be like, you are now going to
certify, but I think that would probably
show poor form and, and seem as though
you don't really kind of know where
you can't, what buttons you can push.
And that's the same thing absolutely
applies when it comes to like offer
letters, what can be kind of asked
for, how your equity compensation,
everything can be restructured.
And so again, I think
you're, you're spot on that.
It goes back to like an advisor
such as ourself, hopefully
at a pretty reasonable cost.
Can, you know, potentially add a ton of
value and save you both a lot of heartache
in the negotiation, um, as well as
hopefully downstream issues of ensuring
things like you actually got the equity.
Corey: It generally helps to
also have the follow up aspect.
Oh, make sure that those forms that you
said, that they said were on their way
to you actually made their way to you.
It's, it's a lot of I
dotting and T crossing.
But where I think that people get it
wrong in the corporate sense is when
they see, when they talk to lawyers,
what they're expecting is certainty,
but last I checked, you folks are
very good at your job, but I've
never met anyone who has been able
to consistently predict the future.
If so, on some level, it's
why bother passing the bar?
Why not instead go in a different
direction and, you know, go and
retire in three weeks after you buy
your own chain of private islands?
The future is always uncertain and
it comes down to likelihood and risk.
Alex: For sure, I mean, uh, I still
remember, and I, I don't even want to
go back and look, uh, because I think
it will depress me too much, but I
would say this was probably 2014 ish.
Some client wanted to pay for my services
in Bitcoin, and being a novice and not
really knowing what it was, I said,
no, I think we'll stay with standard
cash, and That definitely came back
to bite me significantly, so, yeah.
Corey: For what it's worth, we
have always said that ourselves.
Like, would you accept
payment in these weird things?
No, we'll accept payment in cash, though.
That works reasonably well.
And, of course, no one does
this with physical cash anymore,
but that's beside the point.
It's, if you had known what was coming
and were able to predict things, then,
yeah, you would have absolutely done that.
But, at the same time, it's
also weird to sit here and say,
Well, perfect foreknowledge.
Wouldn't you have bought a lot of Bitcoin?
No, I would have hit the
Powerball six weeks in a row.
That's what I would have done.
And yeah, it becomes, it hits the point
of almost absurdist fantasy when you
start thinking about, well, if only
I'd done this one thing differently.
I am curious, as far as when you
deal with customers, clients,
prospective clients, etc.
What do you wish that people knew to make
dealing with you, I guess, lower friction?
What, what misunderstandings do people
bring into these conversations of not
really knowing how to interact with
attorneys that might trip them up?
Alex: Well, I think anytime you're
interacting with a professional,
whether it's an attorney, a dentist,
uh, you know, it's scary, right?
And, and especially if you're kind of
a first time founder, it's also scary
because you don't really know what to
expect as far as kind of billables go.
And I think the niche we hope to have
kind of parved out stems a lot from the
fact that like the whole way in which
we become lawyers, it's kind of silly.
If you really think about it, I mean,
we go through these years of law
school, then we take a test that my
humble opinion doesn't prepare you
that well for being a lawyer, and then
you're immediately a lawyer, right?
And if you go to work for a large
law firm, you're immediately told
to build 2000 hours and be an expert
on this type of, and as a result
of kind of those infrastructures.
You know, they, they're kind of
forced into these associates billable
hours being most of the time, at
least when I've been exposed to it
quite a bit higher than even mine.
Right.
And so the goal for us is going to be,
Hey, listen, we know this is scary,
but because of lower overhead, because
of the way we've kind of structured
and because we're really just kind
of trying to serve you, not trying
to serve everybody that's out there.
We can offer you a hopefully, you
know, at least compared to the market,
a cost effective approach that is
really transparent, that allows people
with, you know, at least some gray
hair and 10 plus years of experience
to kind of be servicing you on this.
Um, and so, you know, it allows for
hopefully that billable to be in a
range that is digestible in light
of the stage your business is at.
Whereas, you know, if you're a larger law
firm and there's definitely an incredible
place for large law firms, They need that
billable to be much higher to justify it.
And so we, we hope to be able to
kind of be that sophisticated source
for them without it being as scary
as thinking like I am signing up for
25 legal fees right out the gate.
Corey: I have always.
had very little compunction against asking
a professional a very direct question
of, Okay, and for my planning purposes,
what should I expect this to cost me?
And so the only time I don't get
a clear answer on that is when I'm
dealing with medical professionals
because of the magics of insurance.
Maybe 10?
Maybe 1.
2 million?
It's a surprise.
We'll find out after the fact.
Which is, frankly, barbaric.
But I've never gotten a bill
shock scenario from any other TORM
professional where I should not
have, where I, I've been surprised
by bills, but I always either think
to myself, I should have asked.
And I've also never asked and
then been surprised by 10x of
what the prediction had been.
Because even by asking that
question, people remember that.
And then, okay, this work is
evolving and it's turning into
more than we expected it to be.
I should throw a flag on that so people
are not surprised after the fact.
That's something that I think,
at least from my perspective,
has served me very well.
Just in terms of level setting
and making sure everyone's
expectations are clear on that.
Budgets exist and money is fungible.
You can move them from thing to thing,
but it helps to know it's coming so
you can make value judgments on it.
There's no sense in spending 10,
000 in legal fees on something
that has maybe a 300 upside.
Alex: Completely agree.
And, you know, we, we try to get
in front of that actually, because
we believe that's the quickest way
to like retain somebody long term.
And so for the first couple of projects,
like we, We really try to be forthcoming.
You know, we're not doing
anything on a flat fee.
We don't really believe that's
fair to either side because
it's just too many variables.
But we will say like, hey, to kind of
tackle this, we think it's going to be in
the three to four and a half hour range.
We think it's going to be in
the 60 to 90 minute range.
We think it's going to be 25 hours.
And here's why.
And then it allows to set kind of a
parameter that then we stay close with
them on talking it through so that as
you're saying, or at the end of the
day, someone's not like, well, you kind
of told me three to four and a half
hours, but I just got a bill for nine.
Why was that?
If that's the case, like we really kind
of want to be in front of that because
otherwise, We think, we at least kind of
assume they might pay us for the nine,
but they're probably never going to work.
Corey: Exactly.
At some point, I've gotten surprise
bills that just seem insultingly high,
and it's okay, I'll pay it without
comment, and that will, and they don't
know it at the time, but that is the
last time we do business with them.
For what it's worth, I have no
idea what your bills look like
for us, because to be frank, they
are not material to the business.
They do not rise to the level of
me having to pay attention to that.
Our CFO knows to the penny what your
bills are, and He is exquisitely
good at flagging things historically
from expenses in various categories.
This doesn't seem right
or this seems high.
Never once has a fee from Archetype been
the subject of one of those discussions.
So I guess on some level I'm
trying to say is charge more?
But you've built definitely a sense
of reassurance from my perspective.
It's always been a pleasure
doing business with you folks.
Alex: Yeah, I mean, I've definitely have
heard that before, not necessarily so
much from the customer, but I've sat
down with other, you know, heads of
small law firms and their philosophy
is kind of like if people aren't kind
of complaining about their bill and
you're probably not charging enough.
I get that.
I just, I'm so much more comfortable
in the other realm, um, because
of the fact that I just think
it builds so much goodwill.
Let's say I can charge hypothetically
five, let's call it 10 percent more.
I just call that a marketing expense.
Okay.
That's just going to cause more people
to feel good about working with you,
as opposed to the other way around of
always kind of pushing the boundaries.
Corey: I'm also a big believer
of not making it an onerous
investment decision when someone's
debating whether they should seek
your advice on something or not.
That's the reason that we do go fixed
fee only when we do our engagements,
but we've also are focused on a very
specific problem that we're able to
put bounds around very effectively.
People say, Oh, do you do this for other
cloud providers instead of just AWS?
No, because that's a great way to wind
up not understanding the nuances of this
and either massively overcharging or
other, on the other hand, charging way too
little and then having to basically work.
in ways that cost us money to do the work.
All billing models are terrible, just
hourly for a lot of things is the easiest
and least terrible of the options.
Alex: Yeah, I think for us, there's
often just so much, uh, unpredictability
with kind of the third party.
Let's use, like, raising
capital as an example.
Right?
Like, it's it's We've, we've done
deals where the opposing law firm
is pretty quick on due diligence.
We've done deals where we've done, you
know, we've gone over like a single
agreement for weeks to make sure the
other side's like comfortable with
something like an IP assignment.
As a result of that, we feel like
it would just be inequitable.
We'd either have to charge kind of on
the really high end out of fear that
it's going to go a ton of back and forth.
And then that would penalize
the people that the deal went
really smooth and vice versa.
So it's, it's just kind of hard on our
side to feel like too flat bill, but I.
I totally can also appreciate from
the customer's perspective where
there is some kind of nicety and to
know exactly what it's always going
Corey: to be.
Yeah.
There's a definite, there's always,
there's always trade offs in
any decision you wind up making.
If that isn't the, uh, the soul
of, uh, negotiating a contract,
I don't really know what is.
If people want to learn more, where's
the best place for them to find you?
Alex: On our website, archetypelegal.
com, we've worked pretty hard
to try to kind of tell our
story, explain the services.
That we are offering and show some
of our personality as far as like
what the vibe would be like if you
were to kind of engage our firm, so.
Um, hopefully people can kind of contact
us there for anybody that's listening.
We'd love to hear from you.
It's just my first name,
Alex at ArchetypeLegal.
com.
And, and that, those are kind
of the most, you know, easiest
ways for people to get in touch.
Corey: For what it's worth, you
have my endorsement as well.
I really want to thank you for taking
the time to speak with me today.
I appreciate it.
Alex: Of course, of course, I cannot wait
for another opportunity to break bread and
a seafood platter with you over dinner.
Corey: I look forward to it, though we're
holding out next time for a seafood mesa
because plateaus just aren't big enough.
We're going for all of the
seafood, the end, full stop.
Alex King, founder at Archetype Legal,
I'm cloud economist Corey Quinn,
and this is Screaming in the Cloud.
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