WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:01:39.190 --> 00:01:39.450 Duke: all right. 00:01:39.450 --> 00:01:40.540 Corey, what are we talking about today? 00:01:41.055 --> 00:01:41.695 CJ: Duke today. 00:01:41.695 --> 00:01:43.695 We're talking about making friends with your users. 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:45.140 Duke: That's right. 00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:49.060 , we thought about this one because we had both noticed, over our past few 00:01:49.080 --> 00:01:54.420 customers that sometimes you have these paradigms where the ServiceNow team is 00:01:54.420 --> 00:01:59.615 its own silo and Maybe they're popular, maybe they're not, but they, but there's 00:01:59.615 --> 00:02:04.485 no really good communication with the stakeholders, either the people in the 00:02:04.485 --> 00:02:08.705 business that consume the services on service now, or the people who are in 00:02:08.705 --> 00:02:10.475 charge of delivering those services. 00:02:10.755 --> 00:02:13.845 And so you come in and maybe you're a freelance architect. 00:02:13.845 --> 00:02:16.795 It's like, we have all these things we need to improve and all these 00:02:16.795 --> 00:02:19.825 things that people don't like about the current situation and 00:02:20.175 --> 00:02:22.355 go, go, go build, build, build. 00:02:23.295 --> 00:02:28.905 But yet the organization still acts like nothing's changing, right? 00:02:29.135 --> 00:02:34.355 And so this is all about how do you formally build channels of 00:02:34.355 --> 00:02:37.895 communication with the people who are using your product? 00:02:37.945 --> 00:02:38.315 , CJ: yeah. 00:02:38.315 --> 00:02:41.975 , all of that Duke and there's so many, tendrils, ? To this one that, 00:02:42.075 --> 00:02:45.655 it goes deep and wide, cause the first thing that comes to my mind is. 00:02:45.805 --> 00:02:50.175 , the lack of this for most it organizations is one of the causes of shadow it. 00:02:50.955 --> 00:02:53.875 Not being able to communicate with your user community, understand 00:02:53.875 --> 00:02:56.385 what their actual needs are so that you can provide for them. 00:02:56.885 --> 00:02:59.655 Um, you know, uh, one of the other causes is that, and not actually 00:02:59.655 --> 00:03:02.055 listening to them when they talk to you, but that's a different episode. 00:03:03.205 --> 00:03:07.925 , Duke: I think people's instincts are that everything has to be in the tool. 00:03:08.005 --> 00:03:10.355 So a bunch of people are making requests. 00:03:10.555 --> 00:03:14.055 There's the rhythm, there's the project, there's the incident, whatever. 00:03:14.315 --> 00:03:20.455 And we chat with them through that interface, or we email them, or every 00:03:20.455 --> 00:03:23.305 once in a while, we have a meeting with. 00:03:23.550 --> 00:03:30.100 Some kind of VP level directorship, but it can be so much better 00:03:30.180 --> 00:03:33.690 with way more open channels. 00:03:34.795 --> 00:03:35.155 CJ: Yeah. 00:03:35.255 --> 00:03:38.145 And my last company, they did this, , very well. 00:03:38.155 --> 00:03:40.745 So it was an internal app and there was a group of folks that 00:03:40.745 --> 00:03:42.445 they identified power users. 00:03:42.445 --> 00:03:45.215 You want to call them folks of influence, whatever you want to call them. 00:03:45.215 --> 00:03:49.915 . And so they had this group of folks, they call them app champions, and they were the 00:03:49.915 --> 00:03:52.245 folks who got the constant communication. 00:03:52.575 --> 00:03:54.425 They got to see the early builds. 00:03:54.615 --> 00:03:57.295 They got to influence the development direction. 00:03:57.575 --> 00:03:59.165 They were the folks who were. 00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:02.870 , talking to their, coworkers and telling them about the things that are coming 00:04:02.870 --> 00:04:06.570 up next and how good it was going to be, or maybe how bad it was going 00:04:06.570 --> 00:04:08.230 to be or , , what have you right? 00:04:08.230 --> 00:04:10.920 But it was, , a formalized group of folks , who were basically 00:04:10.920 --> 00:04:12.130 blessed by their management. 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:18.550 , in this council, to discuss the app and to talk about the app and the direction of it 00:04:18.850 --> 00:04:22.830 and to ensure that, there was an alignment between development and business. 00:04:23.685 --> 00:04:27.455 Duke: And, , what's your experience with setting them up? 00:04:28.705 --> 00:04:29.675 Have you ever set one up? 00:04:30.910 --> 00:04:33.450 CJ: Not formally and not in this way. 00:04:33.450 --> 00:04:36.340 No, and definitely , not at scale like that either. 00:04:36.520 --> 00:04:39.770 But I think we all have to a certain degree, right? 00:04:39.770 --> 00:04:42.490 Most of us who've been in this space as long as you and I have Duke, 00:04:42.760 --> 00:04:46.390 ? Like we've set up a cab, ? And that's a sort of similar thing, ? You're 00:04:46.390 --> 00:04:51.000 going out, you grabbing folks who are, , party to this process and 00:04:51.010 --> 00:04:53.250 getting them together and then help it. 00:04:53.250 --> 00:04:55.660 And then they're helping make decisions , on a process. 00:04:55.660 --> 00:04:55.700 Yeah. 00:04:55.980 --> 00:04:58.330 , cause I don't know about your experience, but my experience, the 00:04:58.330 --> 00:05:03.080 cap didn't only, meet to, discuss changes they met to actually discuss 00:05:03.080 --> 00:05:04.680 the direction of change management. 00:05:04.755 --> 00:05:07.010 Right? 00:05:07.290 --> 00:05:10.820 Duke: I've done it a bunch of times and it's definitively easier when you're the 00:05:10.820 --> 00:05:14.790 person on the inside, when I've tried to set it up being a freelance architect, 00:05:14.790 --> 00:05:18.170 and you don't have any political sway it's not that you can compel , your 00:05:18.170 --> 00:05:20.150 handlers to move in a certain direction. 00:05:20.200 --> 00:05:24.310 ? And so you're more like, you have to put a lot of emphasis 00:05:24.330 --> 00:05:26.860 into the ask and how it's asked. 00:05:27.420 --> 00:05:29.510 So that they understand the criticality of it. 00:05:29.510 --> 00:05:33.920 But when is your app and you're the product owner in your company, it's 00:05:33.930 --> 00:05:37.600 way easier just to reach out to either the people who complain the loudest, 00:05:37.660 --> 00:05:43.490 . Or the people , who love it and, , are bought in , and bring them close, um, 00:05:45.075 --> 00:05:46.375 We didn't organize this very well. 00:05:46.375 --> 00:05:48.695 So we're just trying to figure this stuff out, the haphazard. 00:05:49.605 --> 00:05:49.825 CJ: Yeah. 00:05:49.825 --> 00:05:52.805 Let me push back on that actually a little bit Duke, because I don't 00:05:52.805 --> 00:05:54.465 know what the correct percentage is. 00:05:54.465 --> 00:05:57.575 . But I think there are some cases where being the outsider actually 00:05:57.575 --> 00:05:59.005 helps you organize that easier. 00:05:59.405 --> 00:06:02.215 . There are some cases where internal it isn't necessarily trusted 00:06:02.215 --> 00:06:03.445 by the business at this moment. 00:06:03.445 --> 00:06:07.055 And so them trying to reach out and get together, a user stakeholder group, 00:06:07.315 --> 00:06:11.645 ? Might not be met with a whole lot of, , optimism or excitement, but if 00:06:11.655 --> 00:06:13.985 you bring in someone with credentials, 00:06:14.185 --> 00:06:16.535 ? Like you and I have and then we say. 00:06:16.910 --> 00:06:18.790 Hey, you know, what would be really cool? 00:06:19.520 --> 00:06:24.140 How about we put together this stakeholder group comprised of users. 00:06:24.460 --> 00:06:27.690 And let's make sure we identify the folks who are both love the 00:06:27.690 --> 00:06:30.530 system and don't love it as much. 00:06:30.910 --> 00:06:34.200 And let's get everyone together and let's have some conversations. 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:38.430 And because we have the gravitas and the experience and the work and the 00:06:38.440 --> 00:06:42.820 titles and certifications and all that kind of stuff, and we're an independent. 00:06:43.035 --> 00:06:46.225 , entity outside of the normal it infrastructure. 00:06:47.035 --> 00:06:51.025 We sometimes can compel the business to come together and think, well, 00:06:51.155 --> 00:06:52.405 this time it might be different. 00:06:52.860 --> 00:06:55.830 Duke: Oh, you know what else we're disposable, 00:06:56.565 --> 00:06:57.425 CJ: That too. 00:06:57.820 --> 00:07:00.560 Duke: So it's kind of like, I've been in situations where the stakeholders 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:03.610 are kind of afraid of the rest of the organization, ? They're not 00:07:03.610 --> 00:07:05.500 well liked and Oh, well, yeah. 00:07:05.510 --> 00:07:09.950 I don't know how to sway them , or I don't want to commit to anything or 00:07:09.950 --> 00:07:11.720 be perceived to commit to anything. 00:07:12.390 --> 00:07:15.000 And then get, , punched down later when I don't deliver. 00:07:15.320 --> 00:07:18.470 In those situations, it's easy for somebody like us to say, , let me do it. 00:07:18.730 --> 00:07:19.960 I'm comfortable in a room. 00:07:20.200 --> 00:07:24.140 I'm used to dealing with hostile stakeholders and I could put a smiley 00:07:24.140 --> 00:07:28.670 happy face on and if I still can't do it, you could be like, yeah, that Fedora 00:07:28.680 --> 00:07:31.860 guy, we never should have , let her never should have let him out of the kennel. 00:07:31.970 --> 00:07:33.250 , we won't make that mistake again. 00:07:35.575 --> 00:07:38.845 , CJ: and then they can commiserate right over , how horrible you were, right. 00:07:39.835 --> 00:07:40.905 You know, and, and they can, 00:07:41.070 --> 00:07:42.690 Duke: That's one thing you have in common now. 00:07:43.045 --> 00:07:43.675 CJ: Right. 00:07:43.955 --> 00:07:46.095 And they can use that to come together, right. 00:07:46.095 --> 00:07:48.165 Whatever works ultimately at the end of the day. 00:07:48.165 --> 00:07:51.875 , I'd love it if my clients didn't have to fire me in order to, uh, to, you 00:07:51.875 --> 00:07:53.405 know, get movement on the project. 00:07:53.405 --> 00:07:53.695 Right. 00:07:53.695 --> 00:07:53.985 But 00:07:57.260 --> 00:08:01.400 Duke: Oh man, it would not be funny, but it's getting just fun to laugh at now. 00:08:01.865 --> 00:08:02.305 CJ: right. 00:08:02.575 --> 00:08:06.815 But maybe if they come back, if they fired me to get movement, reach out and say, 00:08:06.815 --> 00:08:10.375 Hey, here's a bonus because actually, we all hated you, but that, that was 00:08:10.375 --> 00:08:11.735 the best thing that ever happened to us. 00:08:11.735 --> 00:08:12.335 It was like, that's great. 00:08:14.520 --> 00:08:19.140 Duke: So I would like to talk about one of my experiences with this too if you are, 00:08:19.240 --> 00:08:22.880 , a ServiceNow product owner who really feels the pressure from the rest of the 00:08:22.880 --> 00:08:26.210 organization, let's just leave the idea of , do they like the experience or not? 00:08:26.220 --> 00:08:27.420 But let's say they want more. 00:08:27.430 --> 00:08:31.230 Everybody wants stuff improved, stuff built, whatever. 00:08:31.300 --> 00:08:34.850 So if you're feeling like you're under pressure and you don't have a 00:08:35.390 --> 00:08:40.010 Stakeholder council get one because I have found it's the easiest way 00:08:40.010 --> 00:08:41.990 to show the organization that. 00:08:42.775 --> 00:08:44.795 It's not them versus you. 00:08:44.805 --> 00:08:47.265 Like why, how come you aren't getting my stuff done? 00:08:48.145 --> 00:08:52.255 ? It completely diffuses that tension because people will see that it's 00:08:52.255 --> 00:08:57.175 not them versus you, the product owner, it's them versus the weight 00:08:57.215 --> 00:09:01.505 of the rest of the organization that also wants ServiceNow stuff done. 00:09:01.505 --> 00:09:06.840 They don't have any way of seeing that, Bob wants cleaner notifications, 00:09:06.860 --> 00:09:12.490 but meanwhile, Jane is responsible for, , getting asset management up 00:09:12.490 --> 00:09:15.090 and running and there's millions of dollars at stake with this. 00:09:15.310 --> 00:09:17.910 . And so now people can see their own requests in the 00:09:17.910 --> 00:09:19.400 context of the bigger picture. 00:09:20.190 --> 00:09:21.320 CJ: That's a really good point. 00:09:21.340 --> 00:09:25.020 And honestly, this is something where, , my nighttime job, ? It really comes 00:09:25.020 --> 00:09:28.450 in handy and it's really useful and we don't do it well, enough there either. 00:09:28.470 --> 00:09:28.710 Right. 00:09:28.710 --> 00:09:32.120 But in that context, I talk about it as transparency, what 00:09:32.920 --> 00:09:34.130 demands are in the queue. 00:09:34.520 --> 00:09:36.560 And what's the priority of those demands? 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:37.400 Right. 00:09:37.400 --> 00:09:41.990 What's our level of resources and why are these things getting done before others? 00:09:42.210 --> 00:09:42.490 Right. 00:09:42.490 --> 00:09:42.730 Like, 00:09:43.910 --> 00:09:45.950 Duke: Well like just on that point too. 00:09:45.970 --> 00:09:52.380 I think so many people say transparency But what they imagine is i'm comfortable 00:09:52.380 --> 00:09:58.110 showing you the performance on my tickets Even if it's bad, which is 00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:03.660 noble but , not big enough thinking because part of transparency is 00:10:03.820 --> 00:10:06.360 what can we do with this app? 00:10:06.520 --> 00:10:10.900 What are we under utilizing that we've bought? 00:10:11.990 --> 00:10:14.810 How many people have performance analytics just sitting there, right? 00:10:15.385 --> 00:10:16.405 CJ: Hey everybody. 00:10:16.560 --> 00:10:19.610 Duke: Just sitting there, just like part of transparency is getting people together 00:10:19.610 --> 00:10:25.300 and say like, Hey, we have this tool that can really drive process performance. 00:10:25.800 --> 00:10:29.560 Or all the people that just didn't have a good strategy for catalog right out the 00:10:29.560 --> 00:10:34.230 gate or for all those companies who have suffered major mergers and acquisitions. 00:10:34.230 --> 00:10:38.210 And so you got three different ways to order the same SharePoint request. 00:10:38.220 --> 00:10:40.170 Cause it's three different companies that used to do it. 00:10:40.500 --> 00:10:40.810 Right. 00:10:40.860 --> 00:10:44.790 Like, like how else are you supposed to bring that to the table? 00:10:44.790 --> 00:10:49.460 And it's a place to put your vision in place. 00:10:49.835 --> 00:10:52.805 A lot of companies will be like, Oh, make sure you show us a roadmap. 00:10:52.805 --> 00:10:54.965 And sometimes what they mean is we're going to tell you a whole bunch of 00:10:54.965 --> 00:10:58.665 stuff and you put it in the single file that is most appealing to us. 00:10:59.175 --> 00:11:05.225 But as a seasoned ServiceNow resource, you're certain to have ideas to improve 00:11:05.225 --> 00:11:10.210 the platform, utilize more of the platform that nobody will ever ask you for. 00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:11.200 CJ: Yeah, 00:11:11.650 --> 00:11:13.330 Duke: But how do you get that stuff out in front? 00:11:14.510 --> 00:11:17.240 , CJ: yeah, again, , I think this stakeholder council idea is a 00:11:17.250 --> 00:11:22.450 great ability to showcase from both ends, right, is the user community, 00:11:22.660 --> 00:11:26.990 showcasing, hey, these are the troubles that we have and this is 00:11:27.010 --> 00:11:28.970 how we rate those troubles on our end. 00:11:29.300 --> 00:11:32.590 , and we want to be involved in helping us fix them right now. 00:11:32.590 --> 00:11:36.080 We don't want you to just go away in a black box and come back and say, hey. 00:11:36.330 --> 00:11:39.670 We took three sentences from you and we built a solution, right? 00:11:39.670 --> 00:11:43.400 Like we want to actually have some, skin in the game, help it 00:11:43.400 --> 00:11:45.020 identify the actual solution. 00:11:45.020 --> 00:11:47.710 And I did, and then you'll get into your point, right? 00:11:47.710 --> 00:11:49.160 Like allowing you to tell us. 00:11:49.210 --> 00:11:53.070 What else you could possibly do or how you could possibly solve this in a way 00:11:53.310 --> 00:11:55.080 and then going having that back and forth? 00:11:55.080 --> 00:11:56.920 Because now we we're starting to understand the 00:11:56.920 --> 00:11:58.090 platform a little bit better. 00:11:58.530 --> 00:12:03.040 Now we can ask for more and we can ask for better or we can contextualize 00:12:03.050 --> 00:12:06.440 our problem more because we can be confident that a solution out 00:12:06.450 --> 00:12:07.880 there potentially exists for it. 00:12:08.490 --> 00:12:08.800 Right? 00:12:08.800 --> 00:12:13.500 And then as the product owner, you and you're the folks on your team 00:12:13.820 --> 00:12:18.690 have this place where you can bring a little bit more of that knowledge, 00:12:18.690 --> 00:12:22.270 as a developer, you maybe you don't necessarily get to exhibit that. 00:12:22.525 --> 00:12:24.245 In those internal meetings as much, right? 00:12:24.245 --> 00:12:25.785 Like you get a story assigned to you work. 00:12:25.785 --> 00:12:26.255 It is done. 00:12:26.255 --> 00:12:27.035 It's a great story. 00:12:27.035 --> 00:12:27.435 You done it. 00:12:27.625 --> 00:12:28.765 Did it really well, right? 00:12:28.765 --> 00:12:29.485 Like you get kudos. 00:12:29.485 --> 00:12:33.035 Hey, yeah, that was really efficient, but you might also have thoughts on 00:12:33.035 --> 00:12:36.885 how you can solve a complex problem because you that's all that's a skill 00:12:36.885 --> 00:12:38.715 set that you don't get to show too often. 00:12:38.715 --> 00:12:40.175 But in the stakeholder council, right? 00:12:40.505 --> 00:12:42.765 When you're having this open communication, maybe that's the 00:12:42.765 --> 00:12:44.075 sort of thing that bubbles up to. 00:12:44.075 --> 00:12:46.785 Oh, 00:12:47.220 --> 00:12:48.990 , Duke: there's one other element I want to bring to this. 00:12:49.570 --> 00:12:52.390 Because, if one's good, why not two? 00:12:53.250 --> 00:12:58.630 Um, and I think you'll very rapidly get into this. 00:12:59.390 --> 00:13:03.350 Case 2 and so I would be prepared to have 2 councils. 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:03.760 Okay. 00:13:03.760 --> 00:13:08.310 1 would be a council assembled of people who are in there every day. 00:13:09.170 --> 00:13:11.370 ? Get me a frontline service desk person. 00:13:11.470 --> 00:13:16.050 Convince the service manager to give you somebody like an hour a week or something. 00:13:17.100 --> 00:13:20.680 But the people that actually work on the thing, because there's going to 00:13:20.680 --> 00:13:24.280 be lots of Intel they can give you, but then the second stakeholder council 00:13:24.280 --> 00:13:26.870 is more like the VP level of the org. 00:13:27.640 --> 00:13:28.180 You know what I mean? 00:13:28.180 --> 00:13:29.750 So you could talk big picture stuff. 00:13:29.750 --> 00:13:31.550 Like what can the CMDB do for all of us? 00:13:32.730 --> 00:13:36.770 Versus the more in the trenches people be like, well, it sucks that 00:13:36.770 --> 00:13:38.930 all these tasks go to the wrong places. 00:13:40.420 --> 00:13:41.200 CJ: Yeah, 00:13:41.410 --> 00:13:44.040 Duke: And it's the same conversation kind of CMDB. 00:13:44.050 --> 00:13:44.800 How can it help you? 00:13:45.680 --> 00:13:49.060 But it's from a different angle, a different facet on the gem. 00:13:49.060 --> 00:13:50.120 Yeah. 00:13:50.290 --> 00:13:51.420 CJ: I get exactly what you're saying. 00:13:51.420 --> 00:13:51.970 what you're talking about? 00:13:52.010 --> 00:13:52.340 Really? 00:13:52.340 --> 00:13:56.610 It's like an executive stakeholder council as well as a champion 00:13:56.610 --> 00:13:59.620 council, which is a level below that a little bit more, people 00:13:59.630 --> 00:14:00.970 with boots on the ground, right? 00:14:00.970 --> 00:14:02.260 Who are actually doing the work. 00:14:02.490 --> 00:14:04.370 And utilizing the system day to day. 00:14:04.370 --> 00:14:07.670 . So they could give a little bit more tactical feedback , and tactical ideas 00:14:07.670 --> 00:14:10.500 where at the executive level right now, we're talking about aligning the 00:14:10.500 --> 00:14:12.310 platform with the business outcomes. 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:16.260 And I'll tell you like it's three things, that people buy service now for, and 00:14:16.260 --> 00:14:22.190 , it is to make money is to save money or is to decrease slash manage risk. 00:14:23.230 --> 00:14:26.440 And so when you're talking at that executive level, , the platform's 00:14:26.460 --> 00:14:29.140 going to start to align with one of those three buckets, right? 00:14:29.160 --> 00:14:29.880 Or it should. 00:14:29.900 --> 00:14:32.810 And if it's not, that's where you want to steer the conversation. 00:14:33.060 --> 00:14:37.310 And then, as you start to align, those potential, , project implementations with 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:42.020 those buckets, then that starts to shower down to that next level of stakeholder 00:14:42.020 --> 00:14:45.680 council where now we're talking about, , why are all these tasks going this place? 00:14:46.255 --> 00:14:48.775 Maybe the question is, why do we even have these tasks? 00:14:49.155 --> 00:14:49.395 Right? 00:14:49.395 --> 00:14:50.085 Who's using them? 00:14:50.085 --> 00:14:51.225 What are we using them for? 00:14:51.645 --> 00:14:52.125 Right. 00:14:52.125 --> 00:14:52.395 You know, 00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:57.540 , Duke: you definitely get to, , deburr the tool when you, when you, when you talk to 00:14:57.540 --> 00:14:59.090 the people who actually use it every day. 00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:01.010 You just find out where the stuff is. 00:15:01.030 --> 00:15:05.850 But , where I've seen this most recently is that , the front liners have way 00:15:05.850 --> 00:15:07.600 more to say straight out the gate. 00:15:08.210 --> 00:15:14.590 And in contrast, the VP council, which I thought for sure would be the most, , not 00:15:14.590 --> 00:15:15.720 contentious, but you know what I mean? 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:19.350 They'd have more critical things to say , and they'll want more out of the app. 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:22.590 But they were saying things like, we don't even know what 00:15:22.590 --> 00:15:24.520 capabilities are available to us. 00:15:24.535 --> 00:15:28.625 What a golden opportunity to be a service now, anything and you're, and 00:15:28.635 --> 00:15:31.335 VP level stakeholders are like, you know what, we don't even know this tool 00:15:31.335 --> 00:15:32.865 well enough to know what to ask for. 00:15:33.205 --> 00:15:33.775 Wow. 00:15:33.965 --> 00:15:35.165 Am I ever going to make your day? 00:15:38.570 --> 00:15:42.170 CJ: yeah, you know, dude, that's an interesting, , position to be in, because 00:15:42.170 --> 00:15:44.780 the first thing you start thinking about is, oh, you don't know service. 00:15:44.780 --> 00:15:46.590 Now, let me tell you service now. 00:15:46.810 --> 00:15:48.870 But then there's another way of thinking about that too. 00:15:49.090 --> 00:15:52.550 It's in that way is I don't think I know the business enough. 00:15:52.550 --> 00:15:52.610 Yeah. 00:15:53.415 --> 00:15:58.855 and what I mean by that is when a VP level C suite level check writing 00:15:58.855 --> 00:16:02.895 level person says to you, I don't know your tool well enough to give 00:16:02.895 --> 00:16:04.295 you direction on how to use it. 00:16:04.555 --> 00:16:09.135 My thought is how do I make the most of this 15 minutes you're about to give me 00:16:09.415 --> 00:16:14.795 to under, to make you understand that we need to devote a lot more resources to 00:16:14.795 --> 00:16:19.125 this thing, because it's going to take whatever you care about and turn it to 10. 00:16:19.980 --> 00:16:20.390 Right. 00:16:20.440 --> 00:16:24.720 So I got to understand more about what you care about so that I'm 00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:26.250 not showing you asset management. 00:16:26.490 --> 00:16:27.700 If you care about, , P. 00:16:27.700 --> 00:16:27.920 P. 00:16:27.920 --> 00:16:28.180 M. 00:16:28.625 --> 00:16:29.105 Duke: Yeah. 00:16:29.895 --> 00:16:30.115 Yeah. 00:16:30.170 --> 00:16:31.770 CJ: And that is 1 of those things. 00:16:31.770 --> 00:16:35.740 When you do get that green light that, we don't know this at well enough 00:16:35.740 --> 00:16:37.470 to even know what it can do for us. 00:16:38.715 --> 00:16:43.565 Ooh, you get the fingers going like, yeah, but let's make sure 00:16:43.565 --> 00:16:45.125 we we're targeting that too. 00:16:45.135 --> 00:16:45.605 Right. 00:16:46.305 --> 00:16:49.215 Duke: That's why you should always have a PowerPoint going on with your daydreams. 00:16:50.455 --> 00:16:51.425 How would I sell it? 00:16:51.555 --> 00:16:52.745 Somebody just said, Hey. 00:16:53.445 --> 00:16:56.155 Give me an elevator pitch on what you do, just pull that thing out. 00:16:56.745 --> 00:16:57.785 I'm glad you asked. 00:16:58.695 --> 00:16:58.985 CJ: Right. 00:16:58.995 --> 00:16:59.275 Right. 00:16:59.275 --> 00:17:01.885 Glad you asked, you know, I've been working at this company for five 00:17:01.885 --> 00:17:04.395 years and these are the places where I've seen, we've been falling down. 00:17:04.545 --> 00:17:06.285 This is how service now can help you in those guys. 00:17:06.545 --> 00:17:06.635 Yeah. 00:17:06.635 --> 00:17:07.565 Boom, boom, boom, boom. 00:17:07.565 --> 00:17:07.975 Right. 00:17:10.035 --> 00:17:12.145 , Duke: I got a couple other kind of tactical points. 00:17:12.485 --> 00:17:12.855 CJ: go for it. 00:17:13.465 --> 00:17:13.885 Duke: okay. 00:17:13.905 --> 00:17:18.055 So when you're at the VP level, let's call it the strategic council. 00:17:18.085 --> 00:17:18.515 Okay. 00:17:18.715 --> 00:17:19.055 CJ: Yep. 00:17:20.035 --> 00:17:22.795 Duke: And then the other one, let's call it the tactical council, right? 00:17:22.795 --> 00:17:23.015 That's 00:17:23.035 --> 00:17:24.695 CJ: I like that strategic versus tactical. 00:17:24.695 --> 00:17:25.145 I like that. 00:17:25.325 --> 00:17:31.125 Duke: Okay, so get this on the tactical council talk tactics and strategy 00:17:31.425 --> 00:17:35.155 because I think everybody wants to make the big picture manifest right there. 00:17:35.345 --> 00:17:35.875 Yes. 00:17:35.925 --> 00:17:36.965 I'm buried in stuff. 00:17:36.995 --> 00:17:39.585 No, I don't know what all these dang FC tasks are. 00:17:39.765 --> 00:17:40.215 Well, what? 00:17:40.215 --> 00:17:43.845 I'm not supposed to work on the rhythm like, deal with all that stuff, but 00:17:43.845 --> 00:17:46.125 also talk strategy layer with them. 00:17:46.535 --> 00:17:50.785 If we all, agree to this, this is how the org gets faster, better, and eventually 00:17:50.785 --> 00:17:52.505 the weight moves off of all of us. 00:17:52.525 --> 00:17:55.405 And people I found respond really well to that, but at the 00:17:55.405 --> 00:17:57.975 strategic layer only be strategic. 00:17:58.675 --> 00:18:02.045 Cause they'll say stuff like, , how can we improve UX? 00:18:02.045 --> 00:18:04.225 That was one , on one of my customers , latest meetings. 00:18:04.255 --> 00:18:07.295 We need to make sure that the customer experience is very, very good. 00:18:07.525 --> 00:18:14.365 The communication is very, very open and, just so, and, I was helping 00:18:14.365 --> 00:18:19.815 them craft a deck and it was just like, , here's the 36 Project tasks we have 00:18:19.815 --> 00:18:23.155 in the system to talk about UX and the things that we might want to do and the 00:18:23.165 --> 00:18:25.005 things that we already, I'm like, no, 00:18:25.435 --> 00:18:25.675 CJ: Yeah. 00:18:25.675 --> 00:18:26.505 None of that matters. 00:18:26.515 --> 00:18:26.785 Duke: yeah. 00:18:26.785 --> 00:18:30.645 Don't don't talk about the 36 things that we are or can do. 00:18:31.170 --> 00:18:32.840 In terms of features, right? 00:18:33.420 --> 00:18:35.960 We're going to turn on notification digest and we're going to, you 00:18:35.960 --> 00:18:39.830 know, just, no, just like we're doing a notification overhaul. 00:18:39.840 --> 00:18:40.450 One thing, 00:18:41.175 --> 00:18:41.665 CJ: Right. 00:18:41.690 --> 00:18:45.470 Duke: Make it broad categories and don't get them in the weeds of the features 00:18:45.490 --> 00:18:48.640 because there's this sense of, um, 00:18:51.080 --> 00:18:54.620 what's, I don't have a good metaphor for it, but it's kind 00:18:54.620 --> 00:18:57.660 of like, there's a tipping point, where that person looks busy. 00:18:58.140 --> 00:19:01.960 . And , it looks good in their favor because they're clearly getting 00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:03.440 stuff done and they're on the ball. 00:19:03.500 --> 00:19:03.840 Right. 00:19:04.550 --> 00:19:08.060 But there's a certain level of detail about what the work is that they're 00:19:08.070 --> 00:19:11.870 doing and they're busy where it starts paying negative dividends. 00:19:13.560 --> 00:19:19.150 CJ: Yeah, I think if I'm reading you right, like it's a, I don't necessarily 00:19:19.150 --> 00:19:24.190 need to know like every percentage of your 150 percentage points of utilization. 00:19:24.540 --> 00:19:24.850 Right. 00:19:24.850 --> 00:19:29.180 What I need to know is overall, like how you're moving the needle. 00:19:29.605 --> 00:19:30.105 Duke: Oh, I got it. 00:19:30.155 --> 00:19:30.755 I got the metaphor. 00:19:30.795 --> 00:19:31.415 I got the metaphor. 00:19:31.635 --> 00:19:35.305 Okay, if I tell you, uh, I'm gonna spend the weekend organizing my house. 00:19:35.305 --> 00:19:36.615 You're kind of like good for you, right? 00:19:37.775 --> 00:19:42.735 But if you saw my house and you saw that I was a hoarder you'd be like That 00:19:42.735 --> 00:19:44.595 means nothing like you're a hoarder. 00:19:44.645 --> 00:19:45.415 It's hopeless. 00:19:45.415 --> 00:19:50.650 Like this is hopeless at a certain level of mess It's hopeless. 00:19:50.850 --> 00:19:52.190 So , don't expose that. 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:55.690 Think like talk strategy layer only is all I'm saying. 00:19:56.220 --> 00:19:56.810 CJ: I got you. 00:19:56.850 --> 00:19:57.280 I got you. 00:19:57.280 --> 00:19:58.530 Here's the bonus points too. 00:19:58.780 --> 00:19:59.760 , if there's a way. 00:20:00.140 --> 00:20:03.220 To tie those buckets of things that you're going to like the 00:20:03.230 --> 00:20:06.130 project, the notification project, we're going to enhance, , internal 00:20:06.130 --> 00:20:09.540 communications by revamping the notification structure of our service. 00:20:09.550 --> 00:20:09.870 Now. 00:20:10.130 --> 00:20:13.270 If you could map that to an organizational goal. 00:20:13.630 --> 00:20:15.890 When you're talking to strategy level, right? 00:20:16.140 --> 00:20:18.550 Then all of a sudden, you've got a little bit more gravitas 00:20:18.570 --> 00:20:20.250 on the reason for that project. 00:20:20.630 --> 00:20:21.070 Duke: Yeah. 00:20:21.070 --> 00:20:21.950 And this is another tip. 00:20:21.950 --> 00:20:23.880 Shout out to Kristen Reeves for giving me this one. 00:20:24.490 --> 00:20:27.950 , if you're going to go to either council and they express things that 00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:32.020 interest them, like we don't have any idea what capabilities we do have. 00:20:32.021 --> 00:20:35.301 when we get to the next council , when we list stuff out, be sure to 00:20:35.301 --> 00:20:39.181 tell them if there's an initiative underway and what phase it's in. 00:20:40.491 --> 00:20:41.111 CJ: Oh, yeah. 00:20:41.171 --> 00:20:41.601 Okay. 00:20:41.661 --> 00:20:43.671 , Duke: there's a lot of capabilities that ServiceNow can do. 00:20:43.711 --> 00:20:44.751 Take the CMDB. 00:20:44.821 --> 00:20:46.671 We're actually in the middle of a CMDB project. 00:20:46.671 --> 00:20:47.651 We're in the build phase, 00:20:48.291 --> 00:20:48.661 CJ: Right. 00:20:48.891 --> 00:20:49.171 Duke: right? 00:20:49.171 --> 00:20:50.501 We could do asset management. 00:20:50.501 --> 00:20:52.311 We're currently in the planning phase for that. 00:20:52.901 --> 00:20:53.451 CJ: Right. 00:20:53.651 --> 00:20:57.411 Duke: And , not only does it allow you the opportunity to say , look at 00:20:57.411 --> 00:21:00.911 all these awesome things that we can do, but also your forward thinking 00:21:00.911 --> 00:21:03.471 ness about where they're actually at. 00:21:03.481 --> 00:21:05.261 Like, how close are we to achieving that? 00:21:06.421 --> 00:21:10.411 CJ: And then also to allow that strategy council to weigh in on those 00:21:10.411 --> 00:21:13.611 and say, of the things that you've shown me, I think there's heavy, 00:21:13.611 --> 00:21:15.448 , anticipation for project number 2. 00:21:15.748 --> 00:21:18.538 Is there any way we can put a little bit more resources behind that so that we 00:21:18.538 --> 00:21:21.128 can take it up a priority level, right? 00:21:21.178 --> 00:21:25.138 Allows you to give them that transparency, that insight into the organization 00:21:25.138 --> 00:21:26.198 and the work that's being done. 00:21:26.408 --> 00:21:28.708 So then they can weigh in on the priority schedule too. 00:21:29.488 --> 00:21:30.618 Duke: I hear that, yep. 00:21:30.618 --> 00:21:37.068 And, it gives them the option to right the ship in a way too, right? 00:21:37.068 --> 00:21:37.658 Cause it's, 00:21:37.778 --> 00:21:38.208 CJ: Yeah. 00:21:38.498 --> 00:21:41.523 , Duke: why is this more important than that? 00:21:42.223 --> 00:21:45.493 All my customers are saying that nobody ever calls them back.. 00:21:45.493 --> 00:21:49.873 And so why is the notification overhaul taking priority over that? 00:21:49.883 --> 00:21:52.623 Why can't you make people call my customers back? 00:21:53.338 --> 00:21:53.788 CJ: Yeah. 00:21:53.878 --> 00:21:55.158 I mean, that's a good question too, 00:21:55.323 --> 00:21:57.053 Duke: now we're talking SLA's or whatnot. 00:21:57.103 --> 00:22:00.993 , CJ: or maybe you're talking about the same projects, but you can answer 00:22:01.003 --> 00:22:05.113 that question with how that project is going to influence that concern. 00:22:06.568 --> 00:22:06.918 Duke: yeah. 00:22:06.993 --> 00:22:10.683 CJ: don't, you don't get there , if you're not elevating that project to that level, 00:22:11.233 --> 00:22:13.163 and causing that conversation to happen. 00:22:13.863 --> 00:22:17.153 Ultimately, what it just comes down to for me, Duke, . Is just communication, 00:22:17.493 --> 00:22:21.903 . It's a winning strategy, , and you might think you're doing enough, 00:22:21.913 --> 00:22:23.533 you're probably not doing enough. 00:22:23.533 --> 00:22:27.393 If you don't have these stakeholder councils, you're not doing enough, right? 00:22:27.393 --> 00:22:31.053 Because there's probably communication , that's hidden from you because you 00:22:31.053 --> 00:22:35.683 don't have the right people in a room talking about whatever the thing is 00:22:35.683 --> 00:22:40.003 that needs to be talked about, or just in the room and having spontaneous 00:22:40.003 --> 00:22:44.343 conversations happen in the course of those directed conversations too, right? 00:22:44.353 --> 00:22:48.383 It's just more communication that you can get with around like the governing layer 00:22:48.383 --> 00:22:51.223 of the product, ? The more you can align. 00:22:51.513 --> 00:22:57.013 The product with the overall direction of the business from top all the way 00:22:57.013 --> 00:23:00.613 down, right from strategic level, all the way down to the tactical one. 00:23:02.528 --> 00:23:03.878 Duke: that makes me think of something. 00:23:04.248 --> 00:23:10.258 Once you form these things up, I think be careful about how labor you give somebody. 00:23:11.008 --> 00:23:15.378 You should always formulate them at the start as being an invitation, right? 00:23:15.648 --> 00:23:20.108 Like we can talk about ways to make your life better because one 00:23:20.108 --> 00:23:26.208 thing I think people miss a lot is that The ServiceNow app in an 00:23:26.218 --> 00:23:29.758 org is not there for its own sake. 00:23:31.108 --> 00:23:32.178 CJ: Ah, yes. 00:23:33.168 --> 00:23:34.008 Duke: You know what I mean? 00:23:34.028 --> 00:23:34.498 Like, 00:23:34.728 --> 00:23:35.288 CJ: I know. 00:23:36.848 --> 00:23:41.668 Duke: so , you have to make it about how they're going to benefit, not how much 00:23:41.858 --> 00:23:47.128 better it's going to be for the ServiceNow platform and your team if they just. 00:23:47.488 --> 00:23:48.838 , fill in the blank, whatever, 00:23:49.448 --> 00:23:49.728 CJ: Yep. 00:23:49.728 --> 00:23:50.433 Yeah. 00:23:50.433 --> 00:23:51.138 Right. 00:23:51.388 --> 00:23:53.978 Duke: let, you know, too, because, , I've been in this situation where there 00:23:53.978 --> 00:23:56.378 was , a performance cleanup, right? 00:23:56.378 --> 00:23:59.748 Senior leadership said, no, there's way too much old crap. 00:23:59.958 --> 00:24:01.078 There's way too much busted. 00:24:01.738 --> 00:24:04.278 Everybody's got to get in here and sweep your old crap. 00:24:04.608 --> 00:24:06.758 And the service now team has to lead it. 00:24:07.458 --> 00:24:09.538 In lieu of having other process ownership. 00:24:09.538 --> 00:24:12.648 So it's like the teams are like, Hey, why do we care about 00:24:12.698 --> 00:24:14.108 making your team look better? 00:24:14.108 --> 00:24:14.298 Right? 00:24:14.328 --> 00:24:15.398 I'm super busy. 00:24:16.068 --> 00:24:16.578 CJ: Right. 00:24:16.948 --> 00:24:20.358 Duke: And so, there's a delicate communication style that you 00:24:20.358 --> 00:24:24.798 have to let them know that it's for their benefit, not yours. 00:24:24.798 --> 00:24:29.598 But also be cognizant of the fact that don't ask them to do things for you. 00:24:29.598 --> 00:24:30.728 Do things for them. 00:24:31.428 --> 00:24:33.438 CJ: That's the philosophy of making your partners rich. 00:24:33.488 --> 00:24:35.558 , if we use networking as an example. 00:24:36.298 --> 00:24:39.248 . We always say you should network, you should get more people in your network. 00:24:39.248 --> 00:24:39.508 Right. 00:24:39.708 --> 00:24:42.298 And most people think, yeah, I should get more people in my network 00:24:42.488 --> 00:24:44.188 so that they can do stuff for me. 00:24:44.798 --> 00:24:46.598 And that's not how networking works. 00:24:46.963 --> 00:24:50.473 ? You get more people in your network so that you have more people 00:24:50.473 --> 00:24:52.003 who might ask you for stuff. 00:24:52.523 --> 00:24:55.983 And maybe you've got more chances to deliver favors. 00:24:56.323 --> 00:25:02.263 And as you deliver more favors, you got more people who look to you as somebody 00:25:02.353 --> 00:25:05.483 who can do things for people and they start wanting to do things for you. 00:25:06.223 --> 00:25:06.733 Duke: Oh man. 00:25:06.743 --> 00:25:10.133 We've talked about that way earlier , in CJ and the Duke to like the secret 00:25:10.133 --> 00:25:14.143 economy in the service now world, where it's kind of like, , I've seen 00:25:14.143 --> 00:25:18.043 Corey publicly help people and Corey's coming to me with a question, so I'm. 00:25:18.418 --> 00:25:20.078 Paying off or you know what I mean? 00:25:20.078 --> 00:25:20.258 Like 00:25:20.358 --> 00:25:20.858 CJ: Yep. 00:25:21.448 --> 00:25:23.768 Duke: so I'm going to take care of Corey because Corey takes care 00:25:23.768 --> 00:25:26.688 of people and some of those people might take care of me and vice versa. 00:25:26.688 --> 00:25:30.978 And yeah, you 00:25:31.178 --> 00:25:32.018 CJ: thing here, right? 00:25:32.018 --> 00:25:35.578 Like, just like you said, you know, it's not, you know, the work is like, I'm busy. 00:25:35.648 --> 00:25:36.528 I can't do work. 00:25:36.528 --> 00:25:37.478 That's benefiting you. 00:25:37.878 --> 00:25:38.808 Yes, you can. 00:25:40.558 --> 00:25:43.238 Right, because you, if you doing that work, that's going to benefit 00:25:43.238 --> 00:25:47.468 another group is going to , bring that bounty back to you in so many 00:25:47.468 --> 00:25:49.028 ways that you can't even anticipate. 00:25:49.643 --> 00:25:53.493 . And, , if everyone is engaging in these reciprocal actions, , all of a 00:25:53.493 --> 00:25:56.453 sudden a rising tide lifts all ships. 00:25:57.153 --> 00:25:58.423 Hey, that's just how I look at it. 00:25:58.423 --> 00:26:00.983 it's just the reason why I try to pick generosity over, 00:26:01.033 --> 00:26:02.453 whatever the opposite of it is. 00:26:04.798 --> 00:26:05.288 Duke: it so often. 00:26:05.298 --> 00:26:06.868 You forgot what the opposite is called. 00:26:08.453 --> 00:26:13.963 CJ: I couldn't think of a, of a, of a good word that would, yeah, 00:26:14.113 --> 00:26:15.453 whatever the opposite is called. 00:26:16.138 --> 00:26:16.938 Duke: Yeah, I hear that. 00:26:16.938 --> 00:26:17.438 I hear that. 00:26:19.793 --> 00:26:22.948 I think you're going to be surprised to like, super high performance 00:26:23.458 --> 00:26:28.258 is really boils down to doing a stupendous amount of small things. 00:26:28.268 --> 00:26:29.928 Very, very well. 00:26:31.558 --> 00:26:32.808 CJ: yeah, I'd agree with that. 00:26:32.998 --> 00:26:36.588 Duke: You're going to be surprised by the amount of. 00:26:36.588 --> 00:26:39.498 Stuff that the organization doesn't know about service now, both 00:26:39.498 --> 00:26:42.828 at that VB level, I didn't know it did asset management, right. 00:26:43.218 --> 00:26:46.468 Or in the front lines, like, what do you mean? 00:26:46.468 --> 00:26:47.718 I'm not supposed to. 00:26:47.768 --> 00:26:49.988 Reassign the rhythm or, you know what I mean? 00:26:49.988 --> 00:26:51.378 Just all this stuff that they don't know. 00:26:51.378 --> 00:26:51.778 What do you mean? 00:26:51.778 --> 00:26:52.518 There's favorites. 00:26:53.588 --> 00:26:53.938 What do you mean? 00:26:53.938 --> 00:26:55.228 I can build my own reports. 00:26:55.688 --> 00:26:59.498 Like you'll be so shocked by the amount , of little stuff. 00:26:59.528 --> 00:27:01.848 There's just, nobody knows. 00:27:01.858 --> 00:27:03.218 Nobody gets, nobody does. 00:27:03.218 --> 00:27:03.588 Right. 00:27:04.128 --> 00:27:07.998 And, at the start, it might feel like, Oh my goodness. 00:27:08.258 --> 00:27:12.138 We're buried in this kind of stuff, but it's okay because you get to 00:27:12.138 --> 00:27:15.328 solve that they're easy solves. 00:27:15.388 --> 00:27:16.848 They're easy, easy solves. 00:27:18.148 --> 00:27:22.198 , CJ: for me, it just highlights, , that service now costs a lot of money. 00:27:22.198 --> 00:27:22.238 Yeah. 00:27:22.588 --> 00:27:27.198 And I don't think we think about that aspect enough, right? 00:27:27.198 --> 00:27:29.348 Like that, it, you know, serves now cost a lot of money. 00:27:29.348 --> 00:27:32.938 So the more you can do with it, the better it is for your business, right? 00:27:32.938 --> 00:27:35.938 The better it is for you as an individual, right? 00:27:35.948 --> 00:27:39.098 And I think that just has to be one of, I don't know if it's the North star, 00:27:39.098 --> 00:27:40.688 but maybe it's in the sky somewhere. 00:27:41.538 --> 00:27:47.968 Duke: Yeah, I, I put that right beside because only a couple people pay for it. 00:27:48.048 --> 00:27:48.618 You know what I mean? 00:27:48.628 --> 00:27:50.598 Or , feel like they've paid for it. 00:27:51.508 --> 00:27:51.878 CJ: Right. 00:27:51.888 --> 00:27:53.328 Duke: Like the service desk. 00:27:53.348 --> 00:27:56.018 Nobody's pulling out any of their wallets to contribute to 00:27:56.018 --> 00:27:57.958 the service now fund, right? 00:27:57.958 --> 00:28:02.328 So, so there's a lot of people that have to use service now that don't 00:28:02.328 --> 00:28:03.918 have financial skin in the game. 00:28:04.188 --> 00:28:08.528 They don't care if it costs a million dollars or a dollar, but 00:28:08.528 --> 00:28:11.128 they do care about the amount of time they have to spend on it. 00:28:12.668 --> 00:28:19.098 And the paradox of it all is from our perspective, it's raw, raw ServiceNow. 00:28:19.108 --> 00:28:23.388 Look at all the different things you can quantify and measure and improve 00:28:23.388 --> 00:28:25.998 and automate and blah, blah, blah. 00:28:26.658 --> 00:28:30.548 But to the average ServiceNow user, this is a bureaucratic, , this 00:28:30.548 --> 00:28:33.083 is like dental checkups level of 00:28:35.483 --> 00:28:36.353 Of excitement. 00:28:36.383 --> 00:28:37.853 It's just I don't want to do this. 00:28:37.853 --> 00:28:39.673 I don't want to get a dental checkup in the same way. 00:28:39.673 --> 00:28:43.383 I don't want to go into service now and log the fact that it's a 00:28:43.383 --> 00:28:47.263 bureaucratic time suck on them. 00:28:47.963 --> 00:28:51.553 , CJ: and I think that gets lost to , the, one of the goals of any 00:28:51.693 --> 00:28:55.253 service now project has to be to make sure the product is easy to use 00:28:55.253 --> 00:28:56.543 by the people who need to use it. 00:28:56.593 --> 00:29:01.073 And part of that, it means not just making it look clean and 00:29:01.073 --> 00:29:02.953 slick when you land on the page. 00:29:03.283 --> 00:29:09.793 But what is the obvious next step for the person you designed that page for? 00:29:09.833 --> 00:29:11.283 Are we ever showing them that? 00:29:11.353 --> 00:29:13.663 And look, I'm not a UI UX guy. 00:29:13.663 --> 00:29:16.403 I don't know all these paradigms and so on and so forth. 00:29:16.433 --> 00:29:20.158 But that doesn't mean that that Can't be one of the things that guides me when 00:29:20.158 --> 00:29:22.198 I'm building our user interfaces, right? 00:29:22.198 --> 00:29:27.378 Like, what do I not want the person who lands on this page to be thinking about? 00:29:27.588 --> 00:29:32.348 And how can I make their next click as easy as possible? 00:29:32.728 --> 00:29:32.958 Right? 00:29:32.958 --> 00:29:36.288 I don't want them thinking about what they should do when they get here. 00:29:36.768 --> 00:29:41.098 Like, if you get on a page and it's got your, list of, open requests, I want 00:29:41.098 --> 00:29:47.808 you to immediately see a big button that says, view this request, right? 00:29:49.118 --> 00:29:49.398 Duke: it's 00:29:49.548 --> 00:29:51.488 CJ: view details or whatever. 00:29:52.238 --> 00:29:52.558 Duke: yeah. 00:29:52.558 --> 00:29:55.298 And there's no bottom rung on simplicity. 00:29:56.598 --> 00:29:57.158 CJ: Yeah, 00:29:57.388 --> 00:30:01.008 , Duke: I've never really had an occasion where people said this is too simple. 00:30:01.058 --> 00:30:01.348 All right. 00:30:01.358 --> 00:30:02.718 That's 38 minutes of record. 00:30:02.718 --> 00:30:05.358 So I think we're just going to call it a quits right here and, 00:30:05.408 --> 00:30:06.948 , work on getting a proper outro. 00:30:07.898 --> 00:30:09.058 CJ: Yeah, absolutely. 00:30:09.648 --> 00:30:09.828 Duke: All right. 00:30:09.878 --> 00:30:10.668 We'll see you on the next one.