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Theology. History. Psychology.
Well, we finally made it to the final episode of our first series on Ellen White and Adventism. But the first thing I want to do is quickly recap the Seventh day Adventists Believe book, the eighteenth fundamental belief. And we kind of went over this in the previous podcast episode, but I just want to read one more time for us. What is the Adventist church say in their fundamental beliefs about Ellen White? So as it is written today, as a result of the 1980s, which we saw in the last podcast episode, the gift of prophecy fundamental belief reads, the scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy.
Nick:This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church, and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. So when Orlando and I first came across this statement, we're like, okay, this is a little bit confusing because it seems like there's a bit of a doublespeak going on because it starts out by saying that, okay, Ellen White speaks with prophetic authority and the things that she says, they're good for correction, for guidance, for instruction.
Nick:So they have some sort of authoritative power behind them, right, according to the statement. But then the very next sentence says, They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. So I remember when Orlando and I first read that we're like, okay, so which one is it? Right? Does Ellen White speak with prophetic authority that she can correct things and instruct things?
Nick:Or is the Bible the only measure? Because this the wording sounds like we're trying to do some doublespeak here saying, yeah, the Bible's the only measure, but Ellen White is also a measure by which things should be tested. But the language was still a little vague, right? It wasn't overtly saying what we thought it was saying. But then we came across this statement.
Nick:So in 2015, that was one of the general conference sessions, sessions where delegates from all over the global Seventh day Adventist Church come in and they vote on statements and they put together this thing titled statement of confidence in the writings of Ellen G. White. So when we first came across this, we were like, wow, this is this is overt. This is not mincing words whatsoever. Like the fundamental belief statement that I just read.
Nick:Let's just read the little intro here. It says as delegates to the 2015 general conference session in San Antonio, Texas. So that's in Orlando's neck of the woods, we express our deep gratitude to God for the continuing presence of the various spiritual gifts among his people, and particularly for the prophetic guidance we have received through life and ministry of Ellen White. On the centennial of her death, we rejoice that her writings have been made available around the globe in many languages and in a variety of printed and electronic formats. Now, here we go.
Nick:Here's the meat of this statement. We reaffirm sudden notice how it's saying reaffirm, right? Not affirm. So there's something to be said about that, but we reaffirm our conviction that her writings are divinely inspired. Truly Christ centered and Bible based.
Nick:Rather than replacing the Bible, they uplift the normative character of scripture. So this is so it still has double speak, right? It's like, it's impossible for them to avoid double speak. It's like, okay, they uplift the normative character of scripture. They don't replace the Bible, but they correct inaccurate interpretations of it derived from tradition, human reason, personal experience, and modern culture.
Nick:So when we first ran into this, we're like, this is super clear and overt. The official Seventh day Adventist Church is putting on a statement that's saying that, oh, Ellen White's writings are supposed to correct erroneous interpretations of scripture. And when something happens that the Bible and Ellen White don't see eye to eye, we're supposed to be using the writings of Ellen White as a key to unlock the secrets of scripture.
Orlando:Yeah. When I saw this, I think it's interesting because there's a bit of circular reasoning going on here. And I may have mentioned this before, where the bible is the source of authority that is used to test the prophets. Right? So you have that on the one hand.
Orlando:And then on the other hand, Ellen White is the thing that corrects all incorrect interpretations of scripture. Right? So in a sense, we're saying we need the writings of Ellen White to help us understand scripture. Right? So on the one hand, we use the Bible to test Ellen White, but you need Ellen White to understand the Bible and correct your interpretation of it, which creates a bit of circular loop, which is very problematic.
Nick:Yeah honestly I have a huge problem with this statement because you could say that Ellen White's writings can be used as good Bible commentary, right? To help us as like an additional study guide or devotional or commentary. It's not on the same level of scripture, but it is on a lesser level than scripture and Adventists throughout history, love to quote Ellen White when she says that her books are the lesser light, right? That they should be made at a lower lower authority than Scripture.
Nick:But that's not what this statement is saying. Because if it was if it was like the same authority or lower authority than Scripture, we could use them, but they're not the key that we use by which we can interpret scripture or by which we can unlock scripture. If it was the same level of scripture, then it would be kind of like the Church of Latter day Saints and how they believe that the Book of Mormon is another testimony of Jesus Christ. Right? So they still have the Bible, but then they also have the Book of Mormon.
Nick:Right. But if we are saying what I think we're saying and what I mean by I think we're saying is what we're definitely saying because it's on the official Seventh day Adventist Church website. And it literally says the writings of Ellen White can be used to correct wrong interpretations of scripture, wrong interpretations of Scripture that were arrived at by, you know, personal study or culture or whatever, then the Adventist church is actually saying that Ellen White's writings are above Scripture.
Orlando:I think historically speaking, her writings have been put above scripture. And when we consider really the history of the church, namely from in the twentieth century, you see an effort by more, you know, fanatical Adventists to try to canonize her writings. And I think what happened in 1980 was a capstone moment for those reactionary Adventists who canonized her writings by putting her name into one of the fundamental beliefs. That was like the pinnacle moment for this, group of Adventists that essentially, performed a coup d'etat, on the movement. And we've been paying the price ever since.
Nick:Oh yeah, and I mean, the reality of the situation is we can go back and forth assigning blame, right? Or we can say, oh, the the official Adventist church statements and the official fundamental beliefs, basically the organization of the Seventh day Adventist Church, and that's not really the church, right? That's the local churches are really the church. And I get that, but it's like, okay, but this statement is this official statement made at a worldwide level. It is released as this official statement of confidence in the writings of Ellen White by the World Church.
Nick:And then the fundamental belief list of the Adventist Church as an organizational level, it has her name on it. So even though on in like regular daily practice, when you go to church, not everybody there is going to be on the same page about these statements, right? Not everybody there is going to canonize Ellen White to the point of exalting her writings above scripture. Not everybody at the local church level is going to be adhering to this belief that, oh, Ellen White's writings are the key by which we interpret scripture. And if we really want to know how to interpret it, we have to use her writings.
Nick:But it's still in there, man. You know, it's still in the fundamental beliefs official statement published by the church's publishing association. It's still in this statement of confidence, written in a global church context. So to not mince words as in its current configuration with these things written down and in official organizational context, the Adventist Church is a cult. And we're not saying that all of their theology is erroneous.
Nick:Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that all of the Adventist doctrines or theology are unbiblical, but as long as they continue to have Ellen White's name in the fundamental beliefs, as long as the official Adventist church stance on her writings, is that they are to be used to correct wrong interpretations of Scripture, then that is the literal definition of a cult. They are holding a human being and their writings above Sola Scriptura. And I want to land it to kind of recap a little bit about what AG Daniels said in the 1919 Bible conference, because you just alluded to the fact that it was not always this way. Throughout Adventist history, there have been people saying the same things we're saying, that the Adventist church has gone too far towards skewing towards a cult because of their relationship with Ellen White.
Orlando:I mean, you're right, Nick. It hasn't always been this way. And for me, that's kind of comforting, right? Because we were born into, you know, a very late age of Adventism, where Ellen White had been canonized for a long time. But that wasn't always the case.
Orlando:You had people like AG Daniels and a few of his contemporaries that were at the 1919 bible conference who were advocating for a more moderate approach to understanding the nature of the authority of Ellen White's writings. Right? And then you had a lot of people that opposed AG Daniels. They accused him of deprioritizing her. They were saying, oh, you don't respect her authority, and by virtue, you don't respect God because you are not holding her writings in such high regard.
Orlando:And it's unfortunate that it was the more conservative and really more reactionary because it was individuals who were very reactionary and had a very, very poor understanding of inspiration that were the ones who won in the 1919 Bible Conference. And it's honestly a shame. It kinda reminds me of there's this Marvel show. It's like what if? And I wonder, had the more progressive individuals, had they won the 1919 Bible Conference, I wonder what the Adventist church would be like now, had a more moderate view and understanding of the nature of Ellen White's inspiration had taken hold.
Nick:And that's something that we explored through this series. It was as Adventism or the Millerite movement was growing, we saw these branches start happening, right? And I'm not saying that every branch was like that. Everything else that the other branches were saying was 100% accurate. Right.
Nick:But that was one of the main topics is how do we relate to Ellen White? Right. And the question that I asked at the beginning of this was, is the Adventist Church a Protestant denomination or is the Adventist Church a cult? And I think, you know, one of the the main tenants of Protestantism are sola fide, right? So by faith alone, we are justified by faith alone.
Nick:Then sola gratia by grace alone. That one could be a topic for another episode in that the Adventist Adventist Church could work a little bit more on that one too, right? That we are saved by faith and by Grace alone. We are not saved by works only and we are not saved by a combination of faith and works. We are saved by Grace and faith alone.
Nick:But the other extremely important tenant of Protestantism that we're focusing on right now is sola scriptura scripture alone. And that's what differentiates Protestants from other cults. Right? That's what differentiates Orthodox Christianity or belief versus just people making stuff up, And then assigning Christian terminology to it. So I think that our rallying cry, because we were discussing this, the two of us were, and we were saying, okay, we don't even necessarily need to agree on the prophethood of Ellen White because that's not even what the main focus we think should be on.
Nick:We think that the main focus should be sola scriptura. That should be the rallying cry. It shouldn't be like, let's have this huge discussion on on on the prophetic authority of Ellen White, even though I think there's some merit to that, but it's has the Adventist Church stepped away from sola scriptura. And I think it's clear that they have.
Orlando:Think it might be helpful to just define what exactly sola scriptura is. Right? And I've seen one definite definition where it states that, you know, the Bible is the sole source of authority for Christian faith and practice.
Nick:And I think that's really what our rallying cry and what our main takeaway from this series is. It's not let's do a big bonfire and gather up all of Ellen White's books and, you know, roast some s'mores on it. It's, hey, we can keep her writings. We can still we don't have to forget the fact that she was a historical figure and that she was an important figure in the in the history of the Seventh day Adventist church, but that does not give us the excuse to hold her writings above scripture.
Orlando:And it's quite sad because one can believe that Ellen White is a prophet and that she's inspired and still desire that her name should not be in one of the fundamental beliefs.
Nick:Let's go back to sola scriptura. The Bible alone should be our guide, not Ellen White. And Orlando and I still both consider ourselves Seventh day Adventist. So it's not like we're saying, you know, let's, let's throw everything away. But what we're saying is let's go back to true Protestantism.
Orlando:And I think it's important to highlight that there have been delegates in the general conference who have brought up the topic of sola scriptura, like during the meetings. This is something that Nick and I discovered when we were looking into the general conference archives. We found transcripts from the 2015 GC session that recorded individuals bringing this up. Okay. So July 7, morning meeting, and again this is from 2015.
Orlando:When we say that the writings of Ellen White correct inaccurate interpretations of the bible, I feel that we, with good intentions, make a mistake with our hermeneutics with the sentence in line 22 where we say that we believe in sola scriptura. But by using Ellen White to correct inaccurate interpretations of the bible, Ellen White becomes normative over the bible and how the bible should be read. And it's interesting because later on in that meeting, another individual said this: Ellen White says we are not to use her writings to settle doctrinal issues. The testimonies of Sister White should not be carried to the front. Quote, the testimonies are not to take the place of the word.
Orlando:Let all prove their positions from the scriptures and substantiate every point they claim as truth from the revealed word of God.
Nick:If they refuse to change and they refuse to move past this, then they're going to hold on to this cult like identity. And there's really no way to excuse that identity or there's no way to excuse that behavior if they just wanna hold on to it for dear life, you know?
Orlando:And it's frustrating because I believe that God has led this movement. I have no doubts about that, in my mind. But like any good thing that starts, whether it be God's, you know, starting up Israel or God starting up, the Christian church, it gets co opted. It gets messed up somewhere along the lines over the course of time that can really mess up the entire institution. I mean, what happened to Israel.
Orlando:Look what happened to the Christian church just a few hundred years after it was established by Jesus himself. The Christian church was deep into apostasy. You know, there were people who were being taught that to believe that God burns people forever. And, I mean, at that point, you're worshiping a narcissist sociopath who burns people for his own glory forever. Right?
Orlando:And so I think with the Adventist church, it started off great. It started off as a movement led by God. But along the way, we kind of lost, you know, lost the path. Right? And we can always get back on again.
Orlando:All we have to do is look at the mistakes that have been made, acknowledge them, correct them, and then just keep moving forward. True Adventism, what is it? And I think true Adventism, at its best is sola scriptura, above everything else. Right? Right before the Adventist church even started, it was founded by people who spent copious amounts of time in scripture, just pouring over scripture, trying to figure out what it meant.
Orlando:Some of these individuals would stay up all night just trying to figure it out. That's how much of a burden that they had, And that goes to show how much they respected scripture because they believed that scripture was the sole source of authority for their lives. And I think Adventism at its best is when we take scripture and believe it and revere it in the same way that they did. There is a really cool quote. This is also from that GC 2015 session.
Orlando:And it's from, let's see, yeah, Ray Rohenfeld. And he said, but I would like to say one other thing, and that is that Ellen White herself, I think, would be I'm not sure how to put this, but I think she would actually be scandalized by the fact that we, as Seventh day Adventists, have incorporated her name into our fundamental beliefs. Now I know that's not up for discussion, but I think as we think about her contributions to the church, we need to keep that in mind. And when I see stuff like that, it's so encouraging to see, like, delegates at the GC level who are advocating for a more moderate, balanced approach to the nature of Ellen White's writings. Because these guys aren't saying, let's throw Ellen White away.
Orlando:Let's burn her books. Let's, you know, take a Sharpie to her name. These individuals, they respect the legacy, the prophetic legacy of Ellen White. And they are also saying, hey, the movement was hijacked by reactionary extremists who had a poor, absolutely poor understanding of the nature of inspiration of Ellen White.
Orlando:And now those extremists have made that our problem.