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So I think we really have to come to
terms with, the fact that there are more

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ways than one beyond the monograph to
communicate good intellectual scholarship.

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I think two, and you're starting to see
this a little bit, universities creating

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the infrastructure to produce podcasts.

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I think we're moving in that direction.

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As you all know, academia moves
at a glacial pace, but right

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now in this world that we live
in, all bets are off the table.

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So why the hell not try
something different?

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Welcome to Continuing Studies podcast
for higher education podcasters who

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wanna learn, connect, and get inspired.

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I'm Neil McPhedran founder of Higher
ed pods.com and Podium podcast company.

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And I'm Jennifer Lee,
founder of J Pod Creations.

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If you're podcasting in
higher ed, you're not alone.

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There's a fast growing community
out there, and we are here

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to help you tap into it.

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That's right.

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And there's no better way to tap into
it than at higher ed Pod Con, which

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is happening this July in Cleveland
early bird registration is open.

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We're looking for speakers.

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Submissions are coming in, but we're
going to two days by popular demand.

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So please get your speaker submissions
in and tell everyone about it.

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Yeah, I'm really excited.

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And also for this show, If you wanna be
on the show or know somebody we should be

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interviewing, email us in the show notes.

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Yes.

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Got that email there.

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I just gotta put one more thing in
here, Jen, which is, I was super

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inspired by everyone that, we heard
from about our 2026 predictions.

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Episode, which was the previous one
to the one you're listening to here.

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So many good voices from literally around
the world getting their predictions in

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for higher education, podcasting in 26.

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So if you haven't listened to
it, go back and listen to it.

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But thank you so much for
everyone who reached out to us.

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We love it.

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If you're listening, we'd
love to hear from you.

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Okay, Jen.

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So in this episode we are
talking to Jim Ambuske.

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Jim is presently director of Digital
History for More Perfect, where he

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plays a central role in advancing In
Pursuit, a national civics initiative

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that translates the lives and leadership
of Americans throughout history

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into actionable lessons for today.

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It's actually really cool.

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You should go check it out.

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We'll put a link to it in our show notes.

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And if that's not enough, Jim is also the
co-founder of Revolutionary Histories.

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Which is a podcast production firm that
specializes in narrative, documentary

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style podcast, and interview series.

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I am super excited to talk to Jim,
and one of the things I'm excited to

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dig into with him is something that
I've got on my thing for 2026 for

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higher education, podcasting, which is
academic work legitimized as podcasts.

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And I'm really curious about this and
talking to all kinds of folks out there.

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So I really wanna dig into this,
how peer review, archiving,

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citation system, what about the
idea of a journal for podcasting?

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So that's what I'm excited
to get into with Jim.

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Yeah, he's just a fascinating guy.

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Like I'm just excited to talk more
about peer review, because there's

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gonna have to be some type of review
system, but how do we figure that out?

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Let's get into it.

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Jim, it's so good to have you
back on continuing studies.

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Well, Neil, Jen, thank you
very much for having me back.

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I'm delighted that you thought I
was worthy of return appearance.

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Absolutely.

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You definitely worthy.

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We love it when people come back.

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So Jim, you've changed your role
since we last had you on the podcast.

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At the time you were at R2 studios and we
had a, a great conversation about that.

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We'll drop the link to that
episode in the show notes.

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We focused in on that episode around
making history heard, bringing

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the past to life through podcast.

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That was the actual title of that episode.

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So tell us about your new role.

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I am now Director of Digital History
working alongside Colleen Shogan, who

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is the 11th archivist of the United
States, the first woman archivist of

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the United States on a project called
In Pursuit, a project of More Perfect.

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More Perfect is a national civics
organization dedicated to engaging

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Americans in democracy and history and
participating in our democratic life.

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And In Pursuit is a really kind of
America 250 project in the sense that

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it is dedicated towards drawing lessons
from America's past so that we can

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write the history of America's future.

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Dr. Shogan recruited 72, I think authors
to write short, 1200 word essays about

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former presidents and first ladies.

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The idea of being focusing on some kind
of element or challenge that they face

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during their term of public service or
throughout their life, contextualizing

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those experiences, but then figuring
out how we can learn a productive

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lesson from those moments so that as we
approach the 250th anniversary of the

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United States, we can deduce from those
moments in history how we can try to

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form a more perfect union in a sense.

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So there'll be essays, they'll
be publishing on Substack

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beginning in February, 2026.

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And I'll just say very quickly, go
to inpursuit.org to sign up where

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you can get the essays when they
come out starting in February.

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We also have a podcast as well as
videos and educational materials, and

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I'm running the podcast and working
with our collaborators on some of

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the videos and editorial content.

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It's a great moment to be
attempting a project like this.

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Wow.

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That sounds like a large project.

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It sounds very interesting as well too.

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Like you feel like you're
biting off a lot there.

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Yeah.

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Well, and you know, until I came on
board, Colleen was a one woman show.

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I mean, there are other project
co-chairs and whatnot, but she

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was doing the bulk of the work.

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so be before we jump into the meat of the
conversation today, I'd love to just get

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your take without getting into specifics
about R2  studios, but your take on the

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state of funding, I guess, for academia
and how, how do you see that affecting

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higher education  academic podcasting,

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it's made it much more difficult.

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As listeners will likely know, the
rise of Doge in early 2025 took a weed

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whacker to most of the federal funding
for humanities projects, including the

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National Endowment for the Humanities
National Archives funding N-H-P-R-C

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funding, which funds a lot of our
documentary editing papers, projects.

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Our library sciences, grants,
things of that nature.

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So it's been very tough.

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Higher ed has been hit extraordinarily
hard in the United States, and without

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going into too many details about
the kinds of pressure campaigns that

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are being put on universities, it's a
difficult environment in which to work.

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It is a difficult environment right
now for academic freedom, and it is

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a difficult environment to receive
funding unless you're towing certain

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narrative threads about the history
of the United States or certain people

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who participated in that history.

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So even though some of the project
funding lines have survived, the

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criteria by which projects are judged
and the kinds of projects that the

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federal administrators now want to
see is vastly different and much more

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constrained than it was previously.

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And a lot of that funding, of course, is
going to, um, America 250 projects, but a

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very particular take on American history.

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And so, I had a lot of conversations
with program officers and former program

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officers  about all of this  because
as you might imagine, certain fences

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are being put up around funding and
certain criteria are being applied.

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The question is whether or not we
should even be applying for it.

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The answer is yes, because if folks who
have good ideas and can figure out how

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to navigate these difficult circumstances
don't apply, well, somebody else will.

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And those somebody else's might
not be doing good history.

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So it is a difficult environment.

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Funding is smaller than it used to be.

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The rules are different,
the fences are up.

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But I think we gotta keep trying.

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You gotta keep plugging away because if
you're gonna build hopefully something

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permanent with those funds, then it
will simply be a part of a chapter,

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one chapter of American history that
then we can still look back on and, and

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hopefully utilize in the future, so.

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How do you feel that we get rid
of some of those roadblocks?

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How do you encourage those
other voices to still break

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down the walls and continue on?

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I think it's a really terrific question
and it actually kind of gets to some

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of the things we talked about in the
last episode we did together, but the

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sort of fragmented nature of higher
ed in this moment and particularly

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in the historical profession where
there are fewer and fewer  jobs.

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There are increasing demands on
a professor's time to get tenure.

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So that limits the time for
good productive scholarship.

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But you know, folks like myself who, I
guess I'm academic adjacent in some ways.

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I mean, I always sort of have
never had a tenure track position.

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Those of us on the periphery, you
might say, who are still in the

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game, but not necessarily of it.

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are finding ways to do podcasts and
documentaries and forms of public

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history that are still fundamentally
reliant on the good scholarship that our

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colleagues are doing, that we are doing.

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But because we're doing them as
independent projects or as part of

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collaborative organizations, that
gives us a great degree of flexibility.

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Without, you know, potential federal
oversight or other kind of oversight to

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tell Good stories from the past, based on
compelling scholarship in ways that would

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satisfy our peers in the profession, but
also reach the public in ways that other

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forms might be constrained at this point.

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I like your positive attitude, Jim.

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you said we're gonna keep pushing
through, I think a few minutes ago,

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I think that's the way it has to be.

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And so, um, all power to you
and anyone who's listening.

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We're gonna put Jim's contact
information in the show notes.

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I'm sure you'd love to hear from others.

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Yeah, I'll do motivational speeches.

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How about that?

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Yeah, there you go.

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That's excellent.

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So Jim, the reason we wanted to get you
back on today was I noticed a LinkedIn

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post you had put up in late October,
early November about The Digital

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Archives in the Commonwealth Summit.

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And that's the Commonwealth of
Virginia, which is a, a mini

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conference that you attended, but,
uh, you're also one of the organizers

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I'd love for you to share a little
bit about this, who really attends

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and what are you really digging into?

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The Digital Archives in the Commonwealth
Conference or Summit started in 2017.

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My colleague and I, Loren Moulds,
were working on a number of digital

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projects and we, we kind of surveyed
the landscape and there wasn't really

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a forum where, as we said, librarians,
technologists, archivists, historians,

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and other humanities practitioners
could get together in Virginia to talk

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about the creation of digital archives.

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What does it actually mean to, you know,
put existing archival material online

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or assemble them in a different form
and create research platforms as we were

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attempting to do at UVA law library.

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But the first one was in 2017,
fairly successful, and we went until

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00:11:01,566 --> 00:11:03,276
COVID forced us to take a pause.

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We were finally able to bring it back
in the last couple of years, and this

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00:11:07,146 --> 00:11:10,506
year it was at the Virginia Museum
of History and Culture in Richmond.

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It's interesting to think about the ways
in which the conversations have evolved.

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When we first started, it was about
digitizing images, how to put those

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into a accessible digital archive.

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What were some of the conversations
taking place about metadata?

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When we brought it back last year,
as you might imagine, a good portion

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of the conversations were about AI
and the rise of generative AI and the

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00:11:33,766 --> 00:11:37,351
role that plays in coding, metadata
construction, and accessibility.

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This year we were fortunate to
very deliberately assemble a group

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talking about the creation of oral
history archives, oral projects,

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00:11:45,681 --> 00:11:47,451
or audio projects in general.

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So, you know, just for example, we
had Dr. Anne Fertig, who's at the

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00:11:51,251 --> 00:11:52,961
United States Holocaust Museum.

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She oversees their encyclopedia,
and one of her goals is to do audio

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recordings of all the entries.

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It's capturing audio in service
of accessibility and dissemination

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of those really important entries.

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00:12:06,101 --> 00:12:10,411
And then Laura Stoner from the Museum of
History and Culture talked about their

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00:12:10,441 --> 00:12:12,899
Vietnam, veterans oral history project.

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00:12:12,899 --> 00:12:16,999
And we also had Sylvia Marshall from
the Virginia War Museum talking about

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00:12:16,999 --> 00:12:19,219
their oral history initiative as well.

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00:12:19,419 --> 00:12:23,381
It was a really fascinating  conversation
and opportunity to think about  the

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meaning and purpose behind creating
these archives, but then also

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the question of what comes next.

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00:12:29,141 --> 00:12:29,321
Hmm.

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00:12:29,351 --> 00:12:33,301
If you think about an oral history
project, often historians will work with

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the transcripts from those conversations
to produce scholarship or written work.

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The increasing question in my
mind is, well, you're creating

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these wonderful oral archives.

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You're hearing the voices of these
people, you're hearing the intention

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in their voices, the emotion in their
voices, the tone of their presentation.

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You're hearing their personalities.

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What are the opportunities to
bring those into a podcast format?

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I think it offers a really
exciting opportunity for creators

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00:13:02,067 --> 00:13:05,977
to draw on existing oral history
archives, to start telling

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stories  in really compelling ways.

230
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So.

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00:13:08,925 --> 00:13:14,174
So you started this conference
in 2017, you must  t see a large

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00:13:14,234 --> 00:13:17,534
advancement, growth, evolution,
however you wanna put it, of this.

233
00:13:17,744 --> 00:13:17,834
Mm-hmm.

234
00:13:18,074 --> 00:13:20,414
Multimedia content scholarship.

235
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Are you and your colleagues seeing
this as a ever growing thing?

236
00:13:24,494 --> 00:13:28,920
I think there's real opportunity
for it to continue exponentially.

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00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,780
And I think in part because, and
especially my younger colleagues

238
00:13:32,780 --> 00:13:37,620
are much savvier at social media,
at thinking about how to craft

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00:13:37,620 --> 00:13:41,280
compelling visual presentations
than people of my generation.

240
00:13:41,310 --> 00:13:44,520
That's not to say that the
younger folks are digital natives.

241
00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:48,950
That's a, a completely false assertion
that we continually fall into.

242
00:13:49,010 --> 00:13:53,186
But Gen Z have really figured
out how to use things like TikTok

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00:13:53,186 --> 00:13:58,336
and YouTube to create compelling
presentations and storytelling.

244
00:13:58,536 --> 00:14:02,196
So I think in that sense, to answer your
question, Neil, yes, I think there's

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00:14:02,396 --> 00:14:08,494
tremendous opportunity both in audio but
also in video as well, to keep going and

246
00:14:08,494 --> 00:14:13,744
not simply just to feed the algorithms
because it's a creative challenge.

247
00:14:13,744 --> 00:14:18,264
It's also creative liberation in some
ways to try to figure out how to tell

248
00:14:18,264 --> 00:14:22,694
stories that you might've just told on
paper before, but then to do it either

249
00:14:22,694 --> 00:14:24,974
in audio form or into documentary.

250
00:14:25,174 --> 00:14:27,604
And I'm getting a little bit of
experience this right now as part

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00:14:27,604 --> 00:14:31,504
of my new job, the podcast we're
developing is video and audio.

252
00:14:31,704 --> 00:14:35,844
And I'm really proud to work alongside
my team because it's the most polished

253
00:14:35,844 --> 00:14:38,904
video production I've ever seen, and
I'm learning all sorts of things about

254
00:14:38,904 --> 00:14:43,034
how to craft visual narrative in many
ways that are different than in audio.

255
00:14:43,034 --> 00:14:45,934
And so, I just think there's so
many different stories to tell.

256
00:14:45,934 --> 00:14:48,004
There's so many different
ways to tell them these days.

257
00:14:48,204 --> 00:14:51,054
Of course, it's always gonna be a
question of funding and possibly

258
00:14:51,054 --> 00:14:55,844
institutional support, but I think it's
worth doing and hopefully I can make

259
00:14:55,844 --> 00:14:57,344
a little bit of that happen for folks.

260
00:14:57,404 --> 00:14:58,154
I like that Jim.

261
00:14:58,514 --> 00:15:00,434
More encouragement for
you to keep going there.

262
00:15:00,634 --> 00:15:02,944
I think as a carry on a little
bit about what you were saying.

263
00:15:02,944 --> 00:15:07,449
I attended a symposium at NYU in
the fall, and we had an episode

264
00:15:07,449 --> 00:15:09,099
about it actually as well.

265
00:15:09,489 --> 00:15:14,159
It was called Podcast Intellectuals,
and there was this recurring theme about

266
00:15:14,159 --> 00:15:20,599
how academia still treats the written
monograph as the currency of scholarship.

267
00:15:20,799 --> 00:15:25,079
Why do you think that is and how
does podcasting challenge that?

268
00:15:25,279 --> 00:15:28,459
Yeah, it's a great question, and
you're right, the monograph remains

269
00:15:28,459 --> 00:15:32,739
sacrosanct, which is okay because that's
still a foundation of scholarship.

270
00:15:32,739 --> 00:15:35,949
But, but to your question about why
is it essentially trusted more, you

271
00:15:35,949 --> 00:15:40,259
know, I think in part because it's
been the foundation of scholarship

272
00:15:40,259 --> 00:15:44,224
for a couple of centuries, but more
intensely since the early 20th century

273
00:15:44,224 --> 00:15:49,194
when the professions became professions
and the standards began to be put in

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00:15:49,194 --> 00:15:51,614
place for what counted as scholarship.

275
00:15:51,644 --> 00:15:53,654
And increasingly so since the 1950s.

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00:15:53,654 --> 00:15:55,514
I mean, if you look at
dissertations in history in the

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00:15:55,514 --> 00:15:57,994
1950s, they're like 35 pages.

278
00:15:58,024 --> 00:15:59,584
Maybe they've got some footnotes.

279
00:15:59,834 --> 00:16:04,024
my dissertation was 400 pages and God
knows how many footnotes were in there.

280
00:16:04,024 --> 00:16:07,194
And so it's a, it's a
form of trust, but verify.

281
00:16:07,224 --> 00:16:11,774
And with a audio project, I
think part of the issue is that

282
00:16:11,804 --> 00:16:12,629
there's two things going on.

283
00:16:12,829 --> 00:16:17,469
One is, there is the assumption that
something that is put out for the

284
00:16:17,469 --> 00:16:22,719
public is fundamentally un-scholarly
and therefore unworthy of being vetted

285
00:16:22,719 --> 00:16:27,799
by folks in the Ivy Tower, which is
fundamentally untrue because just

286
00:16:27,799 --> 00:16:30,529
because it's accessible, it doesn't
mean it's not rigorous and scholarly.

287
00:16:30,729 --> 00:16:36,162
And number two, to your question, I do
think that audio projects and podcasting

288
00:16:36,162 --> 00:16:40,540
and connecting with the public, in
getting 50,000 downloads versus the

289
00:16:40,540 --> 00:16:46,260
average monograph sells 643 copies
over a five year period, so you're

290
00:16:46,260 --> 00:16:49,620
potentially reaching a greater audience
than you would with your monograph.

291
00:16:49,820 --> 00:16:50,810
That can seem threatening.

292
00:16:51,010 --> 00:16:55,335
You can sort of see it as, well, what
am I even doing if I am only writing

293
00:16:55,335 --> 00:16:59,505
this book that is only gonna reach a
very small fraction of the population.

294
00:16:59,565 --> 00:17:03,565
That's not to say that all podcasts are
gonna reach tons of people, but you can

295
00:17:03,565 --> 00:17:07,495
kind of see that there's a, a sort of
introspection that takes place and whether

296
00:17:07,495 --> 00:17:10,365
or not what I'm doing is even worth doing.

297
00:17:10,565 --> 00:17:10,745
Hmm.

298
00:17:10,945 --> 00:17:12,265
The answer is yes, you should.

299
00:17:12,625 --> 00:17:17,115
Even if your monograph sells 643
copies, there's a generational

300
00:17:17,205 --> 00:17:20,625
opportunity to inform states of
the field and understanding about

301
00:17:20,625 --> 00:17:22,395
the past or other fields as well.

302
00:17:22,595 --> 00:17:26,245
It's just that there should be a
place, and there is a place where

303
00:17:26,445 --> 00:17:28,545
you can do that good scholarship.

304
00:17:28,745 --> 00:17:33,745
You can disseminate that in audio form
and you know, you might not necessarily

305
00:17:33,745 --> 00:17:38,585
see the footnotes, but if you put in
the work and the scholarship and the

306
00:17:38,585 --> 00:17:41,905
vetting, then you've got a product
that's equally as compelling in

307
00:17:41,905 --> 00:17:43,735
many ways as the standard monograph.

308
00:17:44,125 --> 00:17:44,605
Yeah.

309
00:17:44,785 --> 00:17:48,363
If podcasting were to be recognized
as a legitimate academic work,

310
00:17:48,693 --> 00:17:50,193
what would the requirement be?

311
00:17:50,193 --> 00:17:53,523
Like peer review, archiving, you name it.

312
00:17:53,603 --> 00:17:54,413
It's a great question.

313
00:17:54,413 --> 00:17:57,503
I've been thinking about it a lot
in part because a colleague of mine,

314
00:17:57,503 --> 00:18:01,743
who's the editor in chief of, academic
Press, has been asking me about this

315
00:18:01,743 --> 00:18:06,033
because she has an interest in possibly
pursuing this down the line as a means

316
00:18:06,033 --> 00:18:08,763
to diversify the press's portfolio.

317
00:18:08,983 --> 00:18:11,713
But what would a peer
reviewed podcast look like?

318
00:18:11,713 --> 00:18:14,083
We were starting to go down this
road at George Mason with some of our

319
00:18:14,083 --> 00:18:17,473
graduate students who were thinking
about podcasts as dissertations.

320
00:18:17,473 --> 00:18:21,410
It would have to be peer reviewed, both
for the intellectual content and the

321
00:18:21,410 --> 00:18:27,687
argument that's advancing, but also by
professional audio creators who understand

322
00:18:27,717 --> 00:18:29,972
the presentation of a story in audio form.

323
00:18:30,365 --> 00:18:34,945
And what are all the wraparound
elements that go into that presentation?

324
00:18:34,945 --> 00:18:38,295
Because if you think about it, right, if
you're peer reviewing a monograph, there

325
00:18:38,295 --> 00:18:43,236
are no sound effects, there's no music
to amplify  or play on your emotions.

326
00:18:43,536 --> 00:18:46,446
No sound effects, as I said,
to sort of situate you in the

327
00:18:46,446 --> 00:18:48,891
soundscape of historical period.

328
00:18:49,091 --> 00:18:52,811
Certainly, you know, in my century, in the
18th century, all my friends are dead, so

329
00:18:52,811 --> 00:18:55,241
I need voice actors to reconstruct voices.

330
00:18:55,631 --> 00:18:58,731
They're not necessarily gonna sound
like they did in the 18th century.

331
00:18:58,981 --> 00:19:03,631
Does that then somehow make that an
inauthentic presentation of the past?

332
00:19:03,941 --> 00:19:06,461
I would argue no, because
something is better than nothing.

333
00:19:06,516 --> 00:19:10,361
so all those considerations
then have to go in place.

334
00:19:10,721 --> 00:19:11,441
Then of course.

335
00:19:11,471 --> 00:19:12,791
What's the marketing plan?

336
00:19:13,166 --> 00:19:17,996
How is this going to shape the field,
both in terms of what you're doing in

337
00:19:17,996 --> 00:19:24,146
that podcast, but also its ability to
reach others, both public and scholarly.

338
00:19:24,346 --> 00:19:27,376
So I think there's a lot of great
questions to figure out, and I think

339
00:19:27,376 --> 00:19:31,226
this is something that university
presses should be doing because the

340
00:19:31,226 --> 00:19:34,486
scholarship is gonna be sound, and
it's not simply just a matter of,

341
00:19:34,486 --> 00:19:35,866
well, you just turned it into audio.

342
00:19:35,866 --> 00:19:38,638
Because as, as both of you know,
there's a lot of work that goes

343
00:19:38,638 --> 00:19:41,668
into making something compelling
from an audio standpoint.

344
00:19:41,858 --> 00:19:46,678
so there's a real, I think, interesting
opportunity for university presses and

345
00:19:46,678 --> 00:19:50,958
presses in general to invest in that
space, to work with people they know

346
00:19:50,958 --> 00:19:54,738
and trust, who are smart people who
have interesting things to say, and

347
00:19:54,738 --> 00:19:58,208
then work with other creative peoples
in a collaborative format to bring

348
00:19:58,208 --> 00:20:02,408
those stories to life in ways that
the monograph not necessarily will.

349
00:20:02,855 --> 00:20:03,065
Hmm.

350
00:20:03,215 --> 00:20:07,955
Jim, it was interesting you were
referring to University Press.

351
00:20:08,013 --> 00:20:12,960
actually my next question was
around the traditional journal.

352
00:20:12,965 --> 00:20:13,015
Mm-hmm.

353
00:20:13,260 --> 00:20:15,180
Maybe just tease those apart a little bit.

354
00:20:15,180 --> 00:20:17,610
University Press versus a journal.

355
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,230
Maybe this is a really dumb question, but
I, you see those as two distinct things?

356
00:20:22,460 --> 00:20:26,690
I think so, and in part I say
that because journals are so hyper

357
00:20:26,990 --> 00:20:31,320
specifically focused on really
foundational scholarship, the fundamental

358
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,020
building blocks that eventually
might become a book in somebody's

359
00:20:34,020 --> 00:20:38,870
work or someone's trying to make a
decisive intervention in 30, 35 pages.

360
00:20:39,070 --> 00:20:42,940
But that doesn't mean that
journals can't have podcasts.

361
00:20:42,970 --> 00:20:47,790
The American Historical Association, which
publishes the American Historical Review.

362
00:20:47,990 --> 00:20:51,950
Has a podcast called History In
Focus, which is a really clever thing.

363
00:20:51,950 --> 00:20:55,850
It's hosted by my colleague Daniel
Story, where he talks with someone

364
00:20:55,850 --> 00:21:00,670
who has published an article in the a
HR about the substance of their work.

365
00:21:00,670 --> 00:21:05,220
And so if you're like me, who, and
I will confess, I, I don't read

366
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:10,130
the journal cover to cover, but
occasionally I will be enticed to dip in.

367
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,845
But if I don't have time and if I can
listen to this scholar talk about their

368
00:21:13,845 --> 00:21:17,895
work and give me, you know, a good
high level overview of what's going on.

369
00:21:18,095 --> 00:21:22,415
That's a really valuable service for
somebody like me and for others as well.

370
00:21:22,445 --> 00:21:26,285
Then maybe as a sort of inciting moment
to go look deeper into that article.

371
00:21:26,615 --> 00:21:27,605
I think they are separate.

372
00:21:27,635 --> 00:21:31,645
I would not imagine that journals given,
if they are pressed for resources and

373
00:21:31,645 --> 00:21:36,715
whatnot, would have the capability to do
larger audio projects, but you never know.

374
00:21:37,035 --> 00:21:41,265
Thanks for bringing up Daniel Story,
also a former guest on our show.

375
00:21:41,265 --> 00:21:44,955
He was excellent and he came to
Higher Ed Pod Con as a speaker

376
00:21:44,955 --> 00:21:46,605
this past summer as well.

377
00:21:46,605 --> 00:21:47,375
It was awesome.

378
00:21:47,375 --> 00:21:47,405
I

379
00:21:47,445 --> 00:21:49,815
I will see him later this
week, so I'll tell him

380
00:21:49,815 --> 00:21:50,055
Excellent.

381
00:21:50,070 --> 00:21:50,925
So say hello.

382
00:21:51,015 --> 00:21:55,035
Just to follow along then to what you were
talking about there is, what I'm curious

383
00:21:55,035 --> 00:22:03,315
about is what do you make of the idea of
a Journal of Podcasting or some formal

384
00:22:03,315 --> 00:22:07,245
accreditation body for scholarly audio.

385
00:22:07,445 --> 00:22:12,115
I think that would be a terrific
idea, and I think that we need greater

386
00:22:12,115 --> 00:22:15,295
opportunities for those of us who
are doing this work to get together.

387
00:22:15,295 --> 00:22:16,885
I mean, you're doing
that with Pod Con, right?

388
00:22:16,885 --> 00:22:16,975
Mm-hmm.

389
00:22:17,215 --> 00:22:21,795
That's a tremendous value, but I
think that's needed in part because

390
00:22:21,855 --> 00:22:26,355
there needs to be a kind of regular
form where those of us who are doing

391
00:22:26,355 --> 00:22:29,585
this work are talking to each other,
learning from each other, getting

392
00:22:29,585 --> 00:22:32,345
excited about ideas, critiquing ideas.

393
00:22:32,545 --> 00:22:36,345
In the history space we haven't
had a really dedicated history

394
00:22:36,345 --> 00:22:38,565
podcast conference at all.

395
00:22:38,565 --> 00:22:42,105
I mean, we're doing something
at AHA here in the coming days.

396
00:22:42,305 --> 00:22:46,825
But I would love to see a history focused
podcast conference that brings in not just

397
00:22:46,825 --> 00:22:50,965
folks in the academy, but we have a lot
to learn from our colleagues who are doing

398
00:22:50,965 --> 00:22:53,455
history podcasts outside of the academy.

399
00:22:53,655 --> 00:22:58,005
Journalism or other independent producers
who are doing some really compelling stuff

400
00:22:58,005 --> 00:23:04,055
that see how to create in ways that we
do not, and what can we learn from them?

401
00:23:04,055 --> 00:23:05,855
What can they learn from us?

402
00:23:05,915 --> 00:23:08,165
If you've ever been to a podcast
conference, there're a lot of fun.

403
00:23:08,225 --> 00:23:10,175
There are a lot more fun
than academic conferences.

404
00:23:10,205 --> 00:23:11,975
It's like going to a jam party, right?

405
00:23:12,175 --> 00:23:14,535
So I never want to go to an
academic conference again.

406
00:23:14,735 --> 00:23:16,385
No, just go to a podcast conference.

407
00:23:16,545 --> 00:23:17,775
I think there's a real need.

408
00:23:17,775 --> 00:23:19,095
I think there's a real opportunity.

409
00:23:19,470 --> 00:23:22,820
It's a question of what format
and who's all involved, but I

410
00:23:22,820 --> 00:23:24,290
would co-sign your idea neil.

411
00:23:24,490 --> 00:23:28,150
I feel like academic conferences though,
would probably have better snacks.

412
00:23:28,300 --> 00:23:33,370
Well, so the Resonate Podcast Conference,
which is held every year at Virginia

413
00:23:33,370 --> 00:23:36,970
Commonwealth University at the
Contemporary Art Institute in downtown

414
00:23:36,970 --> 00:23:41,370
Richmond, put on by a gentleman named
Chioke I’Anson, who is a professor and one

415
00:23:41,370 --> 00:23:43,020
of the leaders of Virginia Public Media.

416
00:23:43,220 --> 00:23:45,620
It is a fantastic conference
with fantastic snacks.

417
00:23:45,820 --> 00:23:49,930
And it's so successful now that the
tickets sell out within minutes.

418
00:23:49,930 --> 00:23:51,370
Like it's just impossible to get in.

419
00:23:51,430 --> 00:23:55,600
I gotta say, just as an aside,
the one I attended at NYU, uh,

420
00:23:55,630 --> 00:23:59,670
the Podcast Intellectuals was
one had like a whole salmon.

421
00:23:59,870 --> 00:24:01,730
Like I was like blown away.

422
00:24:01,930 --> 00:24:03,790
Okay, let's let, let's
get back on track here.

423
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:08,770
How can institutions support podcast
based scholarship without losing

424
00:24:08,770 --> 00:24:11,470
what makes podcasting so distinct?

425
00:24:11,710 --> 00:24:15,100
It's creativity, the
accessibility, so on and so forth?

426
00:24:15,300 --> 00:24:17,970
I think there are a few
things that need to happen.

427
00:24:17,970 --> 00:24:21,810
One, and I'll use history as an example,
but I think it applies to other fields

428
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,230
where the monograph is the preeminent
vehicle by which you get tenure.

429
00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:30,470
Until there's a greater acceptance
of digital projects or other kinds of

430
00:24:30,470 --> 00:24:35,650
scholarship that have the intellectual
substance of a monograph, but don't

431
00:24:35,650 --> 00:24:39,490
necessarily appear in monograph
form, I think it's difficult.

432
00:24:39,490 --> 00:24:44,101
I'll give you an example, Andrew Falk, who
host a podcast and won the first Sinclair

433
00:24:44,101 --> 00:24:48,241
Podcast Prize from the American Historical
Association, said at our conference last

434
00:24:48,241 --> 00:24:53,391
year, that he didn't feel comfortable
starting a podcast until he had tenure.

435
00:24:53,391 --> 00:24:53,451
Hmm.

436
00:24:53,651 --> 00:24:59,281
So the ways in which academia is
structured still leads to really good

437
00:24:59,341 --> 00:25:03,951
scholarship, but it also in, in many
ways prevents risk taking because if

438
00:25:03,951 --> 00:25:08,271
you don't meet certain requirements to
get your tenure portfolio, you miss out

439
00:25:08,271 --> 00:25:10,281
on a lifetime appointment potentially.

440
00:25:10,481 --> 00:25:15,091
So I think we really have to come to terms
with, uh, the fact that there are more

441
00:25:15,091 --> 00:25:20,121
ways than one beyond the monograph to
communicate good intellectual scholarship.

442
00:25:20,181 --> 00:25:24,451
I think two, and you're starting to see
this a little bit, universities creating

443
00:25:24,451 --> 00:25:27,981
the infrastructure to produce podcasts.

444
00:25:28,011 --> 00:25:32,031
At Mason, I think there were like four or
five studios just around the main campus.

445
00:25:32,031 --> 00:25:35,751
Some of them weren't really used because
they were built in a hype period and

446
00:25:35,841 --> 00:25:37,221
no one knew what to do with them.

447
00:25:37,251 --> 00:25:41,431
But you're starting to see more and
more faculty turning to podcast creation

448
00:25:41,431 --> 00:25:46,941
as an assignment in ways that is much
more appealing to a younger crowd,

449
00:25:46,941 --> 00:25:50,781
but also reflects the different ways
that that students learn and allows

450
00:25:50,781 --> 00:25:54,531
them to express their creativity
beyond simply writing a paper.

451
00:25:54,531 --> 00:25:56,231
So I think that's a piece of it.

452
00:25:56,231 --> 00:25:59,931
But in terms of bigger productions
and faculty led productions, you

453
00:25:59,931 --> 00:26:02,271
know at, at the end of the day, you
have to decide what your goals are.

454
00:26:02,271 --> 00:26:05,631
If you're comfortable getting
5,000 downloads, great.

455
00:26:05,691 --> 00:26:07,871
You've achieved something
really fascinating.

456
00:26:07,871 --> 00:26:12,271
You've took a creative risk, you've done
something experimental in ways that moves

457
00:26:12,361 --> 00:26:16,611
both the scholarship forward, but also
the audio medium forward; that's terrific.

458
00:26:16,611 --> 00:26:16,941
Right?

459
00:26:17,141 --> 00:26:21,346
But again, like then if you want to
go to a, a higher budget production

460
00:26:21,346 --> 00:26:25,716
or potentially reaching a, a wider
audience, that's, a series of different

461
00:26:25,716 --> 00:26:28,751
layers because at the end of the
day, it's gonna require more money

462
00:26:28,781 --> 00:26:32,321
to do a narrative series like my
own World's Turned Upside Down, or

463
00:26:32,321 --> 00:26:33,701
some of the other stuff that I do.

464
00:26:33,901 --> 00:26:36,961
If you wanna reach those wider audiences,
then you're thinking about, uh, a

465
00:26:36,961 --> 00:26:40,821
pretty substantial marketing budget,
perhaps a distribution deal with a

466
00:26:40,821 --> 00:26:42,591
studio And what does that entail?

467
00:26:42,921 --> 00:26:45,861
You have to calibrate your
ambitions, calibrate your goals,

468
00:26:46,061 --> 00:26:49,231
calibrate what you would be
satisfied with, and go from there.

469
00:26:49,261 --> 00:26:50,881
I think we're moving in that direction.

470
00:26:50,881 --> 00:26:54,471
As you all know, academia moves
at a glacial pace, but right

471
00:26:54,471 --> 00:26:56,901
now in this world that we live
in, all bets are off the table.

472
00:26:56,901 --> 00:26:59,271
So why the hell not try
something different?

473
00:26:59,471 --> 00:27:02,501
You said that so well, but I have
one more thing to wrap it up with.

474
00:27:02,501 --> 00:27:09,481
no limitations, what do you see
or hope for higher education

475
00:27:09,481 --> 00:27:11,177
podcasts  in the future?

476
00:27:11,377 --> 00:27:12,787
So another good question.

477
00:27:12,987 --> 00:27:17,307
One of the things that I'm seeing is that
universities are dissuading their faculty

478
00:27:17,307 --> 00:27:19,757
from cross institutional collaboration.

479
00:27:19,757 --> 00:27:23,417
Everybody's retrenching and
circling the wagons in part because

480
00:27:23,417 --> 00:27:25,842
there's a great deal of fear about
everything out there these days.

481
00:27:26,042 --> 00:27:30,802
I think what I would like to see is
some kind of greater infrastructure,

482
00:27:30,832 --> 00:27:33,832
kind of like the network that you
all have built where we can submit

483
00:27:33,832 --> 00:27:36,582
our series and highlight that work.

484
00:27:36,582 --> 00:27:40,292
But also the History Hit network
in the uk, is working with faculty

485
00:27:40,292 --> 00:27:42,932
members at different universities
and creating really compelling

486
00:27:42,932 --> 00:27:47,042
podcast series, interview series,
but then video, documentary series.

487
00:27:47,387 --> 00:27:50,417
Leveraging the talent that's in the
UK and some in the United States

488
00:27:50,417 --> 00:27:54,787
as well, to explore the past in
a subscription based service that

489
00:27:54,787 --> 00:27:57,217
makes use of some of the best talent.

490
00:27:57,217 --> 00:28:01,977
And I think it would be interesting to see
a framework created in the United States

491
00:28:01,977 --> 00:28:07,667
that would do the same thing, give space
to academics who are trying to create

492
00:28:07,667 --> 00:28:12,077
a good scholarly podcast and leverage
resources across promote among shows.

493
00:28:12,077 --> 00:28:13,687
So that's what I'd like to see.

494
00:28:13,807 --> 00:28:13,957
Yeah,

495
00:28:13,957 --> 00:28:16,327
You know, if any major funders
are out there, they'd like

496
00:28:16,327 --> 00:28:18,107
to underwrite that vision.

497
00:28:18,138 --> 00:28:23,905
Well, this is something that we're
really wanting to tackle in, in

498
00:28:23,905 --> 00:28:26,635
this year and maybe beyond 'cause
I don't think we're gonna be able

499
00:28:26,635 --> 00:28:27,865
to tackle it in one year, but.

500
00:28:28,065 --> 00:28:31,785
With with higher ed pods.com,
where we've built this directory

501
00:28:31,785 --> 00:28:33,945
of higher education podcasts,

502
00:28:34,215 --> 00:28:34,305
right?

503
00:28:34,395 --> 00:28:38,715
We're getting it to a place where it
definitely is the largest directory

504
00:28:38,775 --> 00:28:40,485
of higher education podcasts.

505
00:28:40,485 --> 00:28:42,585
We've started to create
categories within it.

506
00:28:42,785 --> 00:28:50,515
W we see our next step is to create an
academic scholarly layer, if you will.

507
00:28:50,545 --> 00:28:52,225
As we've seen on this podcast.

508
00:28:52,225 --> 00:28:56,635
It's everything from an alumni
podcast to a sports team podcast,

509
00:28:56,835 --> 00:29:02,925
to up to a professor who's, has a
compendium to his or her textbook.

510
00:29:03,225 --> 00:29:08,715
What we've been talking about for the last
half hour is scholarly academic focus.

511
00:29:08,745 --> 00:29:12,105
If it's gonna work, it has to
have the rigor, which you've

512
00:29:12,105 --> 00:29:17,945
discussed, Jim, the existing rigor
that's applied to the monograph.

513
00:29:18,065 --> 00:29:21,995
This isn't something we're gonna do on our
own, but we need folks like yourself to

514
00:29:22,385 --> 00:29:24,845
advise, come on board, to be part of this.

515
00:29:24,845 --> 00:29:28,825
It has to be something that's
built from the world of academia.

516
00:29:29,025 --> 00:29:31,845
we've started to build something
from a directory perspective.

517
00:29:31,845 --> 00:29:35,645
The next step is how do we build
some sort of, that's why I was asking

518
00:29:35,645 --> 00:29:38,885
about the Journal of Podcasting,
some sort of podcast journal into it.

519
00:29:38,885 --> 00:29:43,565
Some sort of recognition that this
podcast here is actually an academic

520
00:29:43,565 --> 00:29:48,845
work, it's a scholarly work, and designate
it separately and index it that way.

521
00:29:49,045 --> 00:29:53,855
Yeah, no, I think that's a great point
because validation's only gonna come from

522
00:29:53,855 --> 00:29:58,475
people who are willing to say, here is the
criteria by which things will be judged.

523
00:29:58,505 --> 00:30:01,915
Here is something that that
passes muster, you know, and

524
00:30:01,915 --> 00:30:03,745
it's not gonna happen overnight.

525
00:30:03,835 --> 00:30:07,785
But getting that ball rolling and creating
the framework of the institutions that

526
00:30:07,785 --> 00:30:13,085
permit, that kind of vetting, that kind
of promotion, and that sort of seal of

527
00:30:13,085 --> 00:30:17,935
approval, if you will, would go a long
way to convincing some colleagues, not

528
00:30:17,935 --> 00:30:19,705
all of course, but some colleagues that.

529
00:30:19,905 --> 00:30:20,895
We're doing good work.

530
00:30:20,895 --> 00:30:24,850
It's just not necessarily between
boards and in your local bookstore.

531
00:30:25,150 --> 00:30:25,810
Oh, I like that.

532
00:30:25,810 --> 00:30:26,680
That's a good way to put it.

533
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,000
We started from a LinkedIn post and
here we are, it's been a great journey.

534
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:34,290
Thank you so much for sharing
and being transparent about your

535
00:30:34,290 --> 00:30:36,150
thoughts and where things are going.

536
00:30:36,150 --> 00:30:39,180
Really appreciate you coming
back onto continuing studies.

537
00:30:39,180 --> 00:30:42,540
Thanks for having me, and I'm happy to
come back a third time just so I have

538
00:30:42,540 --> 00:30:44,490
a compelling lead over other people.

539
00:30:44,710 --> 00:30:45,620
Yeah, there we go.

540
00:30:45,650 --> 00:30:48,250
It'll be like SNL where
we need to do Jackets

541
00:30:48,330 --> 00:30:48,720
Yes.

542
00:30:48,910 --> 00:30:49,660
Thanks so much, Jim.

543
00:30:49,860 --> 00:30:50,580
Thank you very much.

544
00:30:52,598 --> 00:30:58,658
I just love talking to Jim and I'm
really happy that he is a second timer.

545
00:30:58,808 --> 00:31:01,448
I said he has to be a third timer
though, because I think we've had

546
00:31:01,448 --> 00:31:03,338
someone else that has done two times.

547
00:31:03,338 --> 00:31:05,468
Usually we have a really
strict vetting process.

548
00:31:05,468 --> 00:31:08,378
Just joking, we love having
people back on, but again, a

549
00:31:08,378 --> 00:31:10,178
really fascinating discussion.

550
00:31:10,378 --> 00:31:11,048
Discussion.

551
00:31:11,053 --> 00:31:11,303
Yeah.

552
00:31:11,513 --> 00:31:14,483
I love the fact that we've been doing
this long enough that we have people.

553
00:31:14,748 --> 00:31:16,368
Quote unquote, back on Jen.

554
00:31:16,568 --> 00:31:17,228
I know.

555
00:31:17,428 --> 00:31:19,948
So this year will be our
third year anniversary.

556
00:31:19,978 --> 00:31:21,388
Do I get a present?

557
00:31:21,448 --> 00:31:25,018
Because usually on like anniversaries,
there's like wood, I can't remember

558
00:31:25,018 --> 00:31:26,458
what three years is, but uh.

559
00:31:26,658 --> 00:31:29,598
I feel like me and maybe the guests
should get some presents for that.

560
00:31:29,598 --> 00:31:34,788
I'm gonna have to ask Gemini
for if, for a podcast co-host,

561
00:31:34,788 --> 00:31:36,168
what's the three year gift?

562
00:31:36,168 --> 00:31:37,818
I wonder what that
would, what it would say.

563
00:31:40,088 --> 00:31:40,598
okay.

564
00:31:40,658 --> 00:31:41,658
Well let's just end it here.

565
00:31:41,888 --> 00:31:43,418
Why don't you just read us out there, Jen?

566
00:31:44,168 --> 00:31:44,558
Perfect.

567
00:31:44,558 --> 00:31:46,268
That was a very radio broadcaster of you.

568
00:31:46,928 --> 00:31:50,378
Uh, thank you for tuning into the
Continuing Studies podcast, a podcast

569
00:31:50,378 --> 00:31:52,088
for higher education podcasters.

570
00:31:52,358 --> 00:31:55,718
We hope you found this episode
informative and inspiring.

571
00:31:55,718 --> 00:31:59,948
If you enjoyed the show, we encourage
you to follow and subscribe to our

572
00:31:59,948 --> 00:32:03,908
podcast on your preferred platform
so you'll never miss an episode.

573
00:32:04,208 --> 00:32:08,318
But if you found this episode
particularly valuable, please consider

574
00:32:08,318 --> 00:32:11,763
sharing it with your friends and
colleagues who also might be interested

575
00:32:12,063 --> 00:32:14,193
in higher education podcasts.

576
00:32:14,223 --> 00:32:19,473
We also invite you to join your peers on
higher ed pods.com, where you can connect

577
00:32:19,473 --> 00:32:23,733
with other podcasters in higher education
and learn from others in the field.

578
00:32:24,093 --> 00:32:26,283
Thank you for being part of our community.

579
00:32:26,283 --> 00:32:29,973
We look forward to continuing to bring
you valuable insights and conversations

580
00:32:29,973 --> 00:32:31,923
around higher education podcasts.

581
00:32:32,223 --> 00:32:33,753
See you in the next episode.

582
00:32:34,443 --> 00:32:35,193
Bye-bye.