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Everyone belongs, and some people join: The Tucson J proudly serves as the town square of the Southern Arizona Jewish community, and a premier destination for thousands of Tucsonans of all ages and identities. Whether seeking our award-winning fitness and childcare programs, arts and culture events, or simply a new friend or connection, our community members come to the J with a shared goal: to be well. When individuals thrive, communities thrive–so, the Tucson J has made it its mission to cultivate and enrich Jewish identity, ensure Jewish continuity, foster wellness, and broaden communal harmony. As a distinguished thought leader and veteran of the JCC movement with more than 36 years of experience, Tucson J President + CEO, Todd Rockoff, knows achieving that mission begins with the culture he cultivates within the workplace and the role the organization takes in its local and global community as a connector, convener, facilitator, and innovator. Listen in as Todd explores the intersections of the wellness industry, non-profit sector, good business practices, community building, and leadership with the best of experts and thinkers from Tucson and beyond.
Hi. I'd like to welcome everyone to this month's episode of total wellness at the J with Todd Rockoff. I am so honored and pleased today to be joined by two friends. So we'll see how the conversation goes, but I think it will be lively and interesting. I'm joined today by Zach Bodnar, who is the President and CEO of the Oshman Family JCC, and Rabbi Daniel Septimus, is the President and CEO of Shalom Austin.
Todd Rockoff:We will put the full bio in the show notes. To say that I'm honored to be sitting with these two colleagues, to have this conversation is really an understatement. What what we're gonna talk about today as we explore our wellness wheel is the idea of Jewish peoplehood, culture, and spirituality. And, really, as we talk about wellness at the JCC and in our movement, Jewish peoplehood and spirituality and culture really sit at the heart of it. And when people think of JCCs, they shouldn't start by thinking of what we do in terms of physical education and recreation.
Todd Rockoff:They should start by thinking about what kind of a cultural and educational institution we are and how we animate the idea of Jewish peoplehood. So we're gonna explore that, a little bit amongst the three of us, and and then we'll see whatever else we feel like talking about. So thank you both for joining me.
Zach Bodner:Thanks for having us.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:Thanks for having us. Did you introduce Zach first? Because it's an aura of age.
Zach Bodner:You're no. It's age before beauty, Daniel. Yes. Sure.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:But it is an honor to be on here. Todd is was was still is my mentor when I entered the JCC movement, and technically, I'm also a Federation CEO, but Todd's been an incredible mentor to me. So I'm honored to Technically,
Todd Rockoff:I think you're actually a Federation CEO.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:I am. I know. But I'm a, you know, I try to be all things to all people, which is impossible, but we try.
Zach Bodner:I didn't have to add to my bio, but Daniel, as long as we're adding to your bio, you're also a rabbi and just a big old mensch. So let's just you know?
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:Very sweet. Although, I'm not technically a president and CEO. I'm just a CEO. I don't know how I get the president title. I y'all have to teach me.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:Just ask your
Zach Bodner:point after you've been there for a decade, and they're like, okay.
Todd Rockoff:It's it's like a it it's really just a a nice way to make it sound bigger than it really is. So I wanna start by asking you all. We talk about the JCC as the town square of the community, a place where you can get to from everywhere and get anywhere from. What does that idea mean in terms of how we bring people together and how we, aren't a specific organization all the time that sometimes we're really this communal idea of gathering and creating community.
Zach Bodner:Daniel, would you like to go first this time since I was introduced first?
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:You go ahead, Zach.
Zach Bodner:Well, we actually It's good that you have each of us, Todd, because we present, I think, different perspectives, because Daniel is both a federation and JCC, as you said, and we're not. We are just a JCC. But I say just in parentheses, because we're bigger than just a JCC in a typical way. We think of ourselves as having a geographical footprint here in Palo Alto, also an intellectual footprint that is much, much bigger. And I think that that is something that you think about a lot as well, Todd, that you're a thought leader out in the field.
Zach Bodner:That's why Daniel and I both look up to you and see you as as a colleague and a and a friend, but also a mentor, because we all think about our spaces as public town squares where we bring in the left and the right, the orthodox and the secular, the Trump lovers and the Trump haters, the BB lovers and the BB haters, the bacon lovers and the bacon haters. Although, truth be told, nobody really hates bacon. Some people just choose not to eat it, right, if we're being honest.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:That's right. But
Zach Bodner:that's what we're trying to do, Todd. We're the last intentionally Jewish space on the continent that does this. You know, synagogues are wonderful, but you're not walking into a synagogue on a regular basis if you're not Jewish or if you don't embrace the same ideology of that synagogue. JCCs are these spaces where we can have these full conversations, and and it's so important as we move into this era where there's such partisanship and division, and that's the beauty of the town square that I believe we create at JCCs.
Todd Rockoff:Yeah. So, Daniel, in in your perspective and having this campus called Shalom Austin, which is, new and revitalized, in its twenty fifth year, what does that mean for you all?
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:So first of all, a little bit of Thank you for speaking so I could understand it, Todd. But the Dell Jewish Community Campus, the land was bought in 1992, and originally, it was envisioned we actually just did a podcast recording today about this as the place for the JCC and the federation. But over time, over the couple of years after 1992, the concept of bringing, and just so everyone understands, congregational communities onto the campus to have different expressions of Jewish faith and Jewish pluralism in one space really came into being, and at first, the campus started with really two congregations, a conservative and reform, and now there's an Orthodox congregation, as well as a K through eighth grade Jewish day school that's also a community day school. So if you think about the spaces that we've created, not only can you come into the JCC physical space and have that town square feeling, like Zach was saying, of people with different perspectives, but we can actually go into other spaces and observe in real time how the Reform community is realizing it and how the Conservative and the Orthodox, and then we've had congregational communities that are not affiliated, they're pluralistic, or they're from the renewal movement that have rented space at the JCC too.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:And one other thing I'll share with you is that Temple Beshalom, which now has a permanent space on the campus, was incubated inside the JCC here. That's how it all started, until they were able to grow big enough to raise their own funds and to have a permanent space on the campus. So we can be an incubator as well of certain things, and things can build out of JCCs, which is, I think, a newer concept. You know, when I was growing up, I did think of the JCC as a space for early childhood or camp or great cultural arts or senior programs. I never thought of it as a place for incredible Jewish education.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:It just wasn't offering that when I was younger. It offers it now, where I grew up in Houston, as you said, fifth generation Houstonians, right? So, you know, I think we've evolved, and as Zach has said, it's critical right now that we provide the space, because people today, I don't think as, and I was a former Congregational Reform rabbi, still Reform rabbi technically, but I think people are just seeking to connect to their Judaism. It's not necessarily connecting to this stream of Judaism or that stream of Judaism, and the JCC provides that space, and our campus in particular, our model, I think, provides that space as well.
Todd Rockoff:I think, you know, for us, one of the things I'm really amongst the things I'm most proud of is the way in which over the years we have enhanced and deepened our relationship with the synagogues and communal organizations, to the point where we have an annual community Shabbat here where every congregation does services in a different space at the j, and then it's gotten so big that 400 people have Shabbat dinner together in our gymnasium. And to me, that is the town square. You know, that we don't always have to be the provider of programs, but we are often the location. And when we have the ability to do it really well, we also sit at the table and provide thought leadership and collaboration with others. So in a couple weeks, we'll gather here for a communal tikkunlal Shavuot that is being done in partnership with the synagogues.
Todd Rockoff:And it has enhanced the Shavuot experience, and more people are now coming to study because we're doing it in a place that people feel comfortable and maybe less threatened, but it really provides an opportunity for the synagogues to to advance their own mission. And we can do that together because, you know, I've often said nobody owns the Jews, so therefore, we should be able to create these experiences that deepen, Jewish life and create a more vibrant Jewish community rather than a silo Jewish community.
Zach Bodner:It's interesting. I just want to add that I think that you are onto something, and it's the recognition that this is not just the download generation, it's the upload generation. Right? Our kids are not just watching their own friends' videos on social media. They want to upload their own stuff, right?
Zach Bodner:So by hosting as the platform, the place where others can come and do Shabbat, that's exactly what the role of the JCC should be. As Danielle said, we're the incubators of new expressions of Jewish identity. So if we could provide the place, if we could provide the challah, but if they could provide what they want to put into it, that's the best of all, I think, the best
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:of all combinations. Todd, when you were describing kind of that citywide Shabbat that you have, it made me think of what is done at many Hillel's, especially at Texas Hillel where I was for a few years, which is to do they called it a Shabbat one thousand. Goal is to get a thousand Jewish students or more in one space eating dinner together, having Reformed, conservative, Orthodox, different kinds of services at one time, but it was extremely powerful to bring the community together in that one moment and to have different rabbis and educators from different backgrounds in the space at the same time working together. Chabad is part of it, Hillel, rabbis coming from the community to be in those spaces, but, you know, there's a lot of similarities between, I think, what Hillel is trying to do on campus with what JCCs are trying to do. I should be doing, in my opinion, in their own communities, which is convening that community together alongside federations and other communal organizations.
Todd Rockoff:You know? So I wanna slightly switch gears and and name Jewish peoplehood because, you know, we said that's one of the things we were gonna talk about. And I was in conversation with someone the other day, and we were talking about the idea of Jewish people, and they said there there needs to be a new word. Like, it needs to be modernized. And and I said, I I'm not sure that that's the case.
Todd Rockoff:I think Jewish people, it is timeless because it is the connective tissue to our past, through today to our future because we really are one people. We're not anything else, in my view, other than a people. And when we're people, we have the ability to come together. What's Jewish people like to you guys?
Zach Bodner:I I happen to agree with you. I think that, you know, when you try to ask the question of somebody, it depends a lot on where they were born, where they were raised, what their culture is. For American Jews, a lot of them see Judaism as a religion. You know, you're Protestant, you're Catholic, you're Muslim, you're Jewish. For Russian Jews, it's a nationality.
Zach Bodner:Like, check off on the box, you're from Ukrainian, you're Georgian, you're Chechen, you're Jewish, right? Latin American Jews, they don't even understand the question because for them, it's like it's a whole part of their Gestalt, right? So, by trying to distinguish us between, are we a religion, a nationality, an ethnicity, a culture, a moral code, you know, a reformed Jew, a conservative we're a people, as you said, Todd. So we can use the Hebrew, we can be whatever, but ultimately, that's what embraces all of these different elements. Know, Mordecai Kaplan called us a civilization, which is another term of art, but that almost seems more archaic in some ways, older.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:I think that Am Yisrael, right, the people of Israel, and to build off what Zach was saying in particular, what I think is a couple of things. When I think of, like, Jewish people that, a, anyone can join our people. Right? We have a formal conversion process that people go through in different ways depending on what movement of Judaism or which rabbi you choose, but anyone could be a part of our people. So we're not we haven't historically been the same makeup, right, for millennia.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:Anyone can join it, and we have an ancestral homeland. I do think that Jewish peoplehood inherently has that at the center of who we are is the idea of Eretz Yisrael, Am Yisrael, and now Medinat Yisrael, right, that we have the land of Israel that's a part of our history and who we are and how we became a people in the first place. We are the people of Israel, right, and the 12 tribes that originated together, and today we have Medinat Yisrael, and that relationship becomes really critical to how we understand Jewish peoplehood. The other thing I'll share, and I think we all know this, is that anyone born before 1980, for the most part, understands Jewish peoplehood. They understand what it means, and especially American Jews, but we're told by educators that after 1980, we have to really teach what it means to be connected to a people.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:Right? And that's changed. You know, Zach, you alluded to this. The reform movement for many years tried to get rid of the people side of it and focus just on the Protestant religious, we are a religion, less a people, right, to really fit in in modernity. But I think that's completely evolved over the last sixty to seventy years.
Todd Rockoff:You know, this is, I think, in some ways, for the Jewish people as we navigate through these times, this is our Sinai moment. This is the moment that we are all trying to come together from diverse backgrounds, diverse opinions, not always being in agreement with each other, and trying to see our future. You know, Daniel, you mentioned before 1980, and I may be the only one here that was before 1980. So
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:Excuse me. A few of us were born before 1980. Thank you.
Zach Bodner:Yeah. Come on. I'm a seventies kid,
Todd Rockoff:but I remember walking around middle school and high school with the wristband of a Soviet dissident, that that I was, walking around feeling connected to this human I didn't know, and yet their suffering was my suffering. And and I wanted to do at that time what I could do to, to be in in in relationship with them. And I think that when we think about Jewish peoplehood, it really is the connection that we have to all Jewish people, and the way in which we don't all have to agree, but we can you know? And, Zach, I'm gonna gonna bring us to the z three idea because I think it expands beyond Israel. I think we can absolutely be, unified without having to be uniform in the way in which we see things.
Zach Bodner:Well, I agree with you, Todd, a %, and you know the Z3 project is all about unity, not uniformity, and yet I think we're challenged in this moment because if you go back to the era of the Soviet emigres, our people were all about freeing the Soviet Jews. They didn't care if they were capitalists or communists. They didn't care if they were orthodox or pork eating secular. They didn't care. They just embraced him as brothers and sisters and said, We're here for you.
Zach Bodner:We're gonna get you out. You know, even as recent as the Ukrainian conflict a few years ago, we were there to get Ukrainian Jews out. We didn't ask what their politics were, what their religiosity was. We didn't have a litmus test. Why is it that especially North American Jews, especially North American progressive Jews want to put a litmus test on whether or not they're going to support Israel or Israelis.
Zach Bodner:They're going to make it about, Well, I don't agree with Bibi's this or Ben Gavir's that or Smolcic's this. They're going to make it about the politics. I don't agree with chief rabbinate not approving my conversion by a reformed rabbi. Right? Why are we getting into those sort of details of the politics and religiosity first?
Zach Bodner:That should be a secondary or tertiary issue. The first should be like, we are a people. Let's start by saying we are one, and we have been undergoing trauma, especially since October 7, and we just need to be there to help, to support each other, to do whatever it takes. And then, yeah, we can disagree over the politics of religion. Don't mean to whitewash it.
Zach Bodner:It's important, and we all have our opinions as we should. But let's start from a place of unity, Todd. You're right. We need to just recognize that this trauma has defined for so many people, especially young people, since October 7, what it means to be a people. By the way, I don't think that we should allow our trauma to define our sets of peoplehood.
Zach Bodner:That's been a mistake we've had all along. You know, the antisemitism has driven this surge that we've talked about, right? More people have come out, and that's great. It's great that more people are saying, he nay nay. Here I am, and I wanna help.
Zach Bodner:But that can't be the only thing that attaches to them. We can't be making this about anti antisemitism or anti anti Zionism. Our our peoplehood, our unity has to be bigger than just that.
Todd Rockoff:Well, I think there's I fear that with this surge that we talk about, and, Daniel, I'll let you weigh in a second on that, is there's no stickiness. Right? A surge is a big wave and that it dissipates. And and I think what we need to do is to figure out a way to bring and keep community together, not about us as as victims, but us as, the future, the the next generation of the Jewish people. And I think that JCCs provide an incredible opportunity to do that in partnership with the broader community because we welcome people in equally.
Todd Rockoff:And I think we should show up authentically as ourselves, and we should we should be unabashedly proud to be Jewish and for JCC's a Zionist organization. And we should welcome people and say, these are the terms, and please come in and join us.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:Yeah. To your point, Todd, today, I was on a call putting on my federation hat with JFNA, Jewish Federations of North America's exec call, and Mimi Kravitz, who all of us know on this call, reported out they did another study based on the original study, right, in '24 on the surge, the post October 7 surge. Is it sticking? And the answer is it is actually sticking right now. A year later, there hasn't been that drop off that some people feared there would be.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:And in particular, I think JCCs have an opportunity to engage the 55 70 four year old bracket, you know, that demographic group, because they are seeking a lot of engagement. You know, young adults, I'm a little more skeptical about that JCCs can play that central role unless the JCCs are actually physically in a place that are accessible to young adults. We'd have a whole conversation about that. Yeah. But 55 70 four year olds are looking for something.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:They're looking to learn. They're looking to engage. They're looking to have community, and I think JZCs could play a real role, and they're seeking it out now. And specifically, they actually do it. They're like 55 to 74 year olds who are empty nesters.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:So if you're not an empty nester, it's a very low percentage of those who've come out in the post October 7 surge because they're still focused on their family. But those who are completely empty nesters out, they're looking for community right now.
Zach Bodner:Danielle, I'd be interested in how those demographics break down geographically, because what I'm finding out here in Northern California is it actually is the ones who have kids still in school that are coming out of the woodwork because they're seeing the antisemitism in their kids' schools, and it's turning them into grassroots activists. There are a ton of Israelis, as you know, in Silicon Valley, and they're joining these WhatsApp groups. They're becoming mobilized. They're they're showing up at the school board meetings, the city council meetings. So they are also part of the surge, and and and it's stickier for them because they're fighting back.
Zach Bodner:A lot of them are Israeli, but it's it's happening out here.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:Two things. One, maybe Liz next door to you up in the Bay Area, so you should absolutely invite her to come take a drive down to you. But two, I think what you're describing, and maybe you can correct me, is more about the fight against, against anti Semitism, right? When they talk about the surge, people are looking to get involved Jewishly. So I'd be curious to know if you're seeing, are they going to adult education classes?
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:Are they seeking out opportunities to grow within the community, not just fighting on the public affairs front, which is extremely important, but actually doing things. I agree with you. When they have a vested interest, we're seeing that too in their child's education. We are seeing them come out, and that is where we're seeing them right now. I think what JFNA is saying, this fifty five to seventy four year old group is really looking for something Jewishly meaningful in their lives right now, and we have an opportunity to engage them.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:We talked about it's got to go beyond anti Semitism. It's got to have some kind of Jewish joy and meaning.
Zach Bodner:It's a yes and. I think it's a yes and, Daniel. Sure. I mean, it's the old timers, you know, the altar cockers, if we can call ourselves that, but it's also the young people, and it's not just the joy. It's what we would call pride.
Zach Bodner:We're all I see your yellow ribbon. Todd and I are wearing the dog tags. You know, our kids have to have this sense of pride, which comes from a deep knowledge and a personal connection. Those two things are going to create that pride. It's going to allow them to become activists and fight back against the antisemitism, but also to stand for something, and I think that both are
Todd Rockoff:different. And that's my big thing, is I believe we need to stand up, and we need to make sure that schools are are not, enabling antisemitism against against our kids. But if all we're doing is fighting, then we're in this we're on this rabbit reel wheel. I think what we need to be doing is finding opportunities, to build allyship by being authentically ourselves and inspiring not a sense of anger call to action, but a sense of joy that says we wanna be a part of something that gives us pride, that gives us that gives us the opportunity to see a future that is different than what we're experiencing today.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:But, you know, to your point, my daughter this past summer went to BBYO's International Colab program, which is supposed to be a program where you get really basically exposed to all different kinds of practices of Judaism, to Israel, and she said to me something really interesting. First of all, you know, this is someone that came to me to the DC march, you know, after October 7, has been significantly involved in the Jewish community here in Austin, and regionally and internationally, combating anti Semitism. She's just became a Stand With Us intern. Like she said, you know, and it's understandable that they went a little too far to focusing just on the Israel, being pro Israel, and focusing on how to combat anti Semitism and all these things in school and with their peers, and there wasn't enough of that focus on that Jewish spirituality, Jewish connection, because going to calab, that's where you're supposed to get that exposure, and she got some of that exposure, but it probably could have been a little more balanced. It's understandable, because this is the first calab after October 7, that it ended up tilting in that direction, but I think teams are looking for a little bit of the balance.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:They want to be prideful, and they want to be joyful and spiritually fulfilled.
Zach Bodner:I think Daniel, I think you're right, and I think this is where, as we talk about the z three moment, the Zionism three point o moment, what we're trying to do is create the Zionism three point o Jew, the new Jew, the alt new Jew. Get the reference, right? And that's taking the best of the Israeli chutzpah, the fighter, the one who's going to stand up and say, I'm not going to take it anymore, the courageous one, and the American or diaspora Jew that says, We have some spirituality. We know what it means to do Jewish outside the realm of just the Orthodox way. We need to combine the best of both, Daniel, to be able to get our kids to be the ones that aren't going be wandering in the desert.
Zach Bodner:They're the ones that go into the promised land. We may not make it to the promised land because we may be stuck in the old way of thinking, but our kids have to take the best of both those worlds, and that's the new Jew.
Todd Rockoff:And and I think that that's, an area where JCCs, any partnership with synagogues, federations. I don't care who leads. Right? It's about get we gotta get it done because our kids are too important. And and I think that if we don't in inspire them with a love of being Jewish, a desire to create the Jewish future that they desire, and the knowledge of what that means.
Todd Rockoff:So not just platitudes, but some some anchoring in Jewish learning and applying it to modernity, then we will have really failed in spite of the great success that we may say that we're having.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:Todd, and I'm curious to hear, Zach, you're, like, a decade well over a decade ahead of us on this, but the Israeli Jewish community and the American Jewish community, both of us are in communities where we have a lot of Israeli Jews, right, and Austin's newer to this opportunity. Post October 7, I saw an opening with the Israeli community. I'm kind of curious. You already had some incredible programming that we're emulating here, thanks to y'all support in Austin, but I see something that's different, and Yakir Englander talked about this on our podcast, that he believes that the Israeli community have taken note of North American jury support of Israel post October 7, and that and it's opened up a new dialogue that there's opportunity for JCCs and other Jewish institutions to take advantage of. I mean, Zach, Todd, are you seeing these things in your JCC?
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:Because I'm seeing that as a post October 7 phenomenon here in Austin.
Zach Bodner:I'm definitely seeing it, and it starts here from the activist perspective. I'll tell you a story. After October 7, when a lot of the American Jews were raising a lot of money through JFNA and other important organizations, we raised close to a billion dollars. Right? That's not what the Israelis were doing.
Zach Bodner:They were filling 747s with flak jackets and camelbacks and hiking boots, they were like The wrong stuff. Right. The wrong well, that's what I was getting to. You just hit my punchline. But the tachas was like, we're gonna do this a little differently, and they didn't have the patience.
Zach Bodner:They wanted to get right to the point. The American Jews, they were doing something big, bureaucracy. This money was going take a year to filter through the process. Israelis were like, Let's do it now. But what happened was, it's right, some of this stuff got stuck in customs.
Zach Bodner:Some of this stuff was the wrong stuff. I remember a plane load of black flak jackets arriving, and they were like, We can't wear these. That's what Hamas wears. We need green ones. Right?
Zach Bodner:But the Israelis have turned to the Americans and say, Okay. Teach us the way to do this because you've been doing it long enough that you know how to do it. So there is that willingness on the activism side. Here in Northern California, there's this whole fight against the ethnic studies curriculum, which you may or may not be as familiar with. Okay, you're both dying.
Zach Bodner:The Israelis were like, Balls to the wall. We need to kill this. And the American Jews were like, it's not going to die. This is California. So let's find a way to compromise and get the ethics studies curriculum to be okay for our community.
Zach Bodner:And the Israelis are that's not okay. We need to kill. Right? So now they're seeing that it like, there's you have to find a way to meet the the best of the American diplomacy and the best of the Israeli kutzpah. So, Daniel, you're you're definitely onto something.
Todd Rockoff:Well, I like the way, you know, Zach, the z three Jew, but I like this idea of creating the new new Jew. Right? Here we are seventy seven years, after the establishment of the state of Israel, and we it's time for a new Jew, that recognizes, where we stand with a strong North American community, a strong a strong Israel, and we all have some level of disagreement with something, but what we have in common is our past and our future. And and if we can focus on that and put to put to the side the meaningful and real arguments or disagreements that we have, but come forward as a people and not that I won't walk into there or I won't walk into there, I think we will be further ahead. And I do, in spite of the the data that Mimi shared, I do think it's important to try to figure out how we're gonna do that with our young people.
Zach Bodner:I I agree. I I think, if I may say something somewhat controversial, it's just so we're not all agreeing with each other all the time. And you may agree with this or not, but, if I'm gonna go deep for a second and psychoanalyze our people, which is a scary thing to do and risky, I wanna postulate that perhaps we have not fully internalized what it means to have our sovereignty back because for two thousand years, we've been a dispersed people. I think even though seventy seven years in, I don't think we've fully internalized what it means to be a sovereign people, and so here's how it's manifesting itself. For some, they still feel like the eternal victim.
Zach Bodner:So they want to have the power and crush our enemies because if we don't, the next Holocaust is right around the corner. And for others, it's that we have this power. We still always have to take care of the underdog. We can't ever put ourselves out there for They haven't really gotten to Hillel's, If I'm not for myself, who will be for me? If I'm only for myself?
Zach Bodner:They haven't embraced that. They've really set up these two camps, but to really understand what it means to have sovereignty is to balance both the power and the principle. And some people get too much in the power, some people get too much in the principle, and I think that the balance is what we're trying to create in the new Jew or the new new Jew, Todd.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:Actually, Zach, I have a concern, and I'm not saying that we're there yet. Okay? And, Todd, I might have shared this with you. Think you and I started talking about this, but we keep pushing that Israel is a Jewish and democratic state to our young people, to ourselves. Right?
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:We've been taught that our whole lives. What if one day it's not a Jewish and democratic state? Are we gonna like, what will that connect what will z what will be z for? I mean, I I don't know. Like but but my point is to your that's why when you say about Jewish sovereignty, what does that mean when you're on the Hillel side, right, if I'm not you know, if I'm only for myself, who am I, versus having that power?
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:Like, dynamic is shaking out right now in this realm, right, internally. It's a big conversation. And how we connect, I there's gotta be some nuance to it, which hopefully your z three project will solve all our problems. Thank you.
Zach Bodner:Yeah. Right. Exactly. Well, if it's a Jewish project, it'll probably just create more questions, not
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:more answers.
Todd Rockoff:Again, I think, you know, when z three birthed itself, it really birthed itself as a way of looking at Zionism in modernity. And we have a strong and vibrant American Jewish community, and we have a strong and vibrant Israel. And today, the principles of z three still apply to that relationship, but they actually apply internally here in America in each of our communities. So how can we recognize the the idea of being unified without being uniform and welcoming a diversity of voices into the big tent where the JCC, in this case, is providing programs and services and opportunities and not be afraid to present a program that we ourselves may disagree with or that some of our constituents disagree with because what we want people to do is to learn. And you can't learn until you make the other person's argument.
Todd Rockoff:The Talmud taught us that.
Zach Bodner:I I think that's the great question of of the generation, Todd, and I think the answer is it starts at least with having humility and grace. It starts with being able to listen. You know? Our kids are taught in kindergarten that we have two ears and one mouth for a reason. We should be listening twice as much as we're talking.
Zach Bodner:I'm not sure as grown ups, we're actually listening to that same advice, but I think that's where this starts.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:I do as well, and it's hard because you've got a lot of stakeholders who have certain perspectives, right, and are afraid to open up those conversations. All the more to me, Zach knows, and and Tad, you know, because I talked about this with you, that we brought a speaker who's definitely on the left. A Zionist, but definitely on the left. And even that scared people. And and they said, this is not the right time.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:This is not the right time because we're in a war and whatever. And we had our reasoning as to why, and then also showing that most of the perspectives being shared are flat on the left. They're mostly in the center, probably. But, like, you know, it's it's it's scary for some people, but if JCCs are really gonna be effective in bringing people together in that town square format, we have to have different perspectives because they represent perspectives of our community. And, Zach, you you, speak so beautifully about this, but the tent has its limitations.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:It's a wide tent. But there is a tent. Right? And once you say, I'm no longer a Zionist, you're not in the tent. Or if you are specifically racist, right, or there's some other side of that tent too.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:So Right.
Todd Rockoff:Right. And I and I think, you know, we just have a couple minutes left, but I think the idea of a very deep and wide tent is essential to the Jewish future and understanding where the poles are that hold that tent up is equally important. But Zach has coached me over the years that you don't you have to not start with who's out. You start with who's in, and the who's out will come come become clearer as define who's in because that's the way you're that's the way you're welcoming. We have two minutes left because I I know we're we're on a time frame.
Todd Rockoff:So I'm gonna ask you in the last each of you take thirty seconds and tell me your hopes and dreams for Jewish peoplehood as we move as we move into into the next year.
Zach Bodner:That's a big one. Thirty seconds, hopes and dreams. First of all, I hope that every hostage comes home. That's number one,
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:man.
Zach Bodner:I hope that, this war is able to end, and that we can finally start moving along the path of peace and that the internal challenges that Israel is facing are able to be dealt with. I don't expect that they're over in six to twelve months, but but God willing, we're we're we're able to move towards healing. I hope that the American Jewish community can open its mind and also be a little bit more embracing of these differences that we've talked about. And I'm I'm hoping for a year of rebuilding and, and recognizing that we're coming off of some real pain and and having grace for each other.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:Daniel? I meant to that, especially about the hostages and and coming together to really talk through some important issues. I wanna put on my rabbi hat for a second, and I and I want people all the Jewish people who I didn't say this early is grounded in the Torah. It's where it comes from, our foundation. And I would encourage people not only to study the five books of Moses, which is the traditional Torah, but our entire tradition speaks how we navigate this together as a community.
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:And when we're fragmented, we're weaker, and when we're together, we're stronger, and to remind ourselves, even if it's inundated or as strong as we feel about our beliefs, that we're always stronger even when we let that other belief into the door or into the tent with us to have that conversation. So my hope is that people will come together and really channel that spirit together.
Todd Rockoff:And if we study ancient texts, we aren't studying them to learn about ancient times. We're studying them to understand their applicability in modernity, and that's the Jewish people, and that the hostages should come home, and we should have with one another. We should exhibit patience and understanding and move to healing and move to the Jewish future that I think we all aspire to. I wanna thank you both, for being here. I could spend hours and hours talking to you, and I appreciate your making the time in the middle of your day.
Todd Rockoff:And I thank our listeners for enjoying another episode of Total Wellness at the j. Thank you very much.
Zach Bodner:Thanks for having us. Thank you for
Rabbi Daniel Septimus:having us. Appreciate it, Todd. Take care, guys.
Todd Rockoff:At the Tucson j, everyone belongs and some people join. For more information about our work, go to tucsonjcc.org.