this is parenting for the everyday a
podcast dedicated to meeting parents in
the trenches of Parenthood we explore
how our faith fits into our parenting
with the help of our guests we are
seeking practical tips on how the gospel
can speak into our day-to-day parenting
from the easy stuff to the hard stuff we
want to talk about it all welcome to
parenting for the every day I'm Holly D
kju and I'm Becca Alvarez a few weeks
ago we did an episode on realistic quiet
times and a conversation that we kept
having coming out of that was this idea
of letting go of this perfectly bow
wrapped faith and we've kind of come
back to it a couple times and talked
about um how do we talk about it on this
podcast in this space and kind of landed
on me walking through maybe our my
infertility Journey um because I feel
like that's really when my faith my bow
shaped Faith really unraveled and so I'm
excited to kind of get to share share
that Journey here in this space and kind
of walk through what God taught me and
how he molded me and just all the things
that came uh um through infertility and
through
loss and before we even get started I
just want to take a minute and thank you
for being willing to talk about this I
know that this is something that is near
and dear to your heart and a tender part
of your life that maybe not many people
even know about um I also think this is
a little bit of an interesting topic to
be talking about this time of year but I
felt really passionate about bringing it
into a Christmas time because I think
that Christmas can be something that is
so exciting and wonderful but the truth
is that not everyone's lives are in a
season of excitement and wonder and it
can feel really lonely when you're in
that season and you and no one's really
giving you space to be where you are and
I also really feel like it would take a
dimension away from Christmas if we left
that out in the sense that even Mary and
Joseph were in a really lonely time and
the end of that story ends well we know
it ends well but in the middle when
you're getting shut out of every place
and you are 9 months pregnant and about
to have a baby like you are so lonely
and you are such an outcast and it looks
so different than you thought it would
look and that's really the basis of
where we want to start this episode yeah
it's funny cuz um some people know the
story cuz I have shared it and then it's
been a while so I think a lot of people
don't necessarily know the road that
I've walked to but my journey to
Parenthood was anything but straight
it's a lot of Curves a lot of windy
roads um my husband and I were diagnosed
with unexplained infertility which is
the most unhelpful diagnosis you can
receive s it's just no answers and so
you're like what do I do with this um
later we would find out that there is a
genetic abnormal abnormality but that
plays into it but it has been uh
Decades of infertility and miscarriages
and I I have had eight miscarriages
which I always hesitate to say that
number because everyone always is like
oh um and I'm only saying it because I
just want to like set the stage of like
hey this was really hard and for me it
came in the form of infertility and
miscarriage but for other people loss
comes in different and you don't need to
have eight miscarriages to feel the
depth of a miscarriage or a loss or
infertility and so just St stating
setting the AG that losses really hard
in whatever for him that that kind of
looks like um and the biggest thing is
that I feel like I grew up um in church
in a Christian home and somehow along
the way I had this notion in my head of
what a good Christian woman should look
like um and at its core it's this belief
that she doesn't waver that she's strong
um she probably makes a good casseroll I
don't know I still can't do that um
definitely sour dough yes nowadays don't
even know like what is a starter I don't
I don't even know um but yeah and it's
only through like the Journey of
infertility and loss that I came to
realize like how absolutely ridiculous
in contrary to what the gospel says that
that notion is and so um yeah we can we
can dive into it let's dive so starting
kind of at the top and you talked about
having infertility impact your faith how
did it impact your faith yeah in
infertility and loss I keep using those
together
I might just say infertility but I mean
loss in there as well I feel like I
could talk about it all day long and I
could never be able to fully summarize
what it does to the depths of a woman's
Soul um it rocks every part of you um
and it really wasn't long into my
journey that I started to recognize that
my head and my heart didn't say the same
thing and so I knew in my head that I
should be saying God is good God is
faithful God has a plan I trust this
plan he has his best for me um but what
my heart was saying is sure God's good
but he's not good to me um and what I
felt was forgotten scared unseen Alone
um and there there started to be this
lie that would creep in that if God
really loved me I wouldn't be here you
know if he loves you how could he let
you go through all of this loss and
heartbreak um and and what makes it more
complicated is what I said earlier right
it's this idea that like Christians
should they should have a faith that
weathers the storm and can stand in the
midst of that and when I didn't on the
outside I'm saying all the right things
but on the inside I'm not feeling these
things so then you add this layer of
guilt that started to creep in of man
you're a phony you're a fake um you
don't have a real Faith as what kind of
Christian are you that as soon as it
gets tough you fall apart and you've got
questions um and you're doubting God's
faithfulness to you and so then on top
of the loss and pain you've got this
guilt and shame that the enemy just
weaves into into a into a mess and
isolation I would assume because
especially if you're presenting one way
and feeling it another way you can only
do that for so long before you just
start to not show up anymore yep
yep um how how do you reconcile the
belief in a loving God with the pain and
loss associated with miscarriage and
infertility yeah I I think this is a
really hard question
there's probably not an answer that you
leave with being like oh that's good I
feel good about that that makes total
sense um but I can tell you what I
walked through um and for me at some
point I realized that I Associated God's
love and goodness with two pink lines
and so without those lines I believe the
lie that God was withholding good from
from me um and it's so D that is such
dangerous thinking I think that's the
seed that the enemy plants in so many of
us and for me it's two pink lines but it
could be anything it could be a job it
could be sickness it could be a marriage
wealth it could be your kids being
successful but all of a sudden you know
you've got that doubt that God's
withholding on you um and so what
happens is you start to look at your you
start to look at God through the lens of
your
circumstances and what you have to get
to a places you have to filter your
circumstances through God and so it's
that
it's a making your like getting right
side up again I think that is the
journey um and so at some point I had to
accept the truth that not having kids um
back in those days and even now like
I've dealt with secondary infertility I
would love to have more kids but the
answer is no the the Lord has said no um
and so I have to recognize that that no
is actually from God in his complete
goodness um and that I say that really
with fluidity um but it's really really
hard to do um and it it what happened in
me is that it revealed um I don't want
to say the crack in my faith but it
revealed this deficit in the fact that
um the Brokenness and despair that
resulted out of my pain wasn't a result
of my circumstances it was the result of
a Detachment from God and who he was and
so because I didn't have a clear view on
who God was and what the gospel meant
for me
that created that level of Brokenness
from him not my infertility does that
make sense that does make sense I just I
want to clarify too so you are saying
that it
wasn't your Brokenness was felt to the
depth that it was felt I mean the pain
is still real the pain is still real you
know just if you're really Tethered to
God doesn't mean you don't feel pain
yeah but it was not the infertility
itself I mean I would I would say like
the depth of the Brokenness that I felt
was a result of being detached from who
God really is um because the pain if I'm
if I'm attached to who God is and I have
a clear vent like if I if what I believe
about the gospel is true right that at
my worst um and most unlovable self God
sends Jesus to pay the price um then
that mean and he's working to restore
all things then he is good yeah that
that proves that he's good um so how
could I reduce God's goodness to my
Earthly circumstance so when I lose
sight of God's goodness it's not because
of my circumstances it's because I've
lost sight of God yeah that does make
sense how did you get there oh man I
didn't you know is that is that
something that like one day you're
feeling this way and the next day you
remember God's goodness oh no no it's a
proc how do you processed to there it's
funny I remember um being in the shower
I do a lot of good thinking in the
shower good processing praying and I
remember kind of being like really
really angry and at that point I was
kind of letting God have it like I was
kind of like this is ridiculous you know
um you've put this desire in my heart
and then you say no to it this is stupid
why would you do that um and I really
heard God speak to the depth of my heart
so clearly and he said you know Holly
you don't trust me to give you what you
want because at this point I I had
actually really stopped praying about it
cuz we can get into that later but so he
was like you don't trust me to give you
what you want but you don't trust me to
take care of you if I don't
and so it was like oh okay yeah it's
like you had to wrestle I really had to
wrestle with that for a long time and
come to the the gra the kind of the
understanding that did I just want G God
to give me what I was asking for is that
what I really wanted or is it possible
to find satisfaction that when God does
not fix the difficulty in my life but he
instead gives me Grace to endure them
without becoming bitter without becoming
resentful that that is his goodness
um Nancy Guthrie has a quote where she
says can I move from Desperately Seeking
relief to diligently seeking to glorify
God as I treasure him more than I do my
own comfort and again it's really hard
and it's not a yes and it's it's I would
say it is a
lifelong surrender to get to that point
um and it's not something that I could
ever do on my own and so to answer your
question no it was through his strength
his grace um in my weakness that he
becomes the only place where all of a
sudden it's the only it's the only way
that I can place my hope it's the only
place that makes sense you know when you
start to really let him fill in the gaps
you know of all your wrong thinking you
mentioned that at some point during this
journey 10 years yeah that it was just
something that you stop praying about so
what did that role look like maybe even
take us through the not the whole
timeline but the timeline from the
beginning of kind of what prayer and
scripture looked like in a time of
needing to cope during your
disappointment and loss and what it
looks like towards the end yeah yeah I I
stopped praying because at some point
you get to the point where at least for
me um it is better to not ask so you
don't have to be told no over and over
again right and so it was like a defense
mechanism that I was you know
unhealthily coping with um if you are
struggling with infertility Sarah
Hagerty has a book called every bitter
thing is sweet and I highly recommend
the book
and she talks about how um she meets a
woman who is saying like um finds out
that Sarah is struggling with
infertility and she says oh my gosh I've
been there I like it took us two months
to get pregnant and that was really hard
so I totally understand what you're what
you're going through and Sarah was
saying like it I wish it had taken me
two months because when you're at two
months you are still kind of in this
like okay it's taking a little bit
longer but God you have a plan and so
that's kind of how the prayer starts it
starts with this idea like Lord could
you give us this could you give and then
each month that goes by or each loss
your prayers just get a little bit
shorter and shorter and shorter and and
that's wrong and it's flawed thinking
but that's kind of the path that I went
to um and so this is also where I would
say it's really important to build
habits outside of a crisis or a loss so
if you're not I mean if you are it's
never too late but if you're not going
through something really hard it's it's
this lesson that I started to learn that
talks about um the idea of walking it
back and so when I don't feel like
praying or I don't feel like opening the
Bible or I'm angry you know you walk it
back and I gotta start with the gospel
right so I got to start the gospel and I
got to speak that truth to myself even
when I don't feel it so I have to remind
myself God is good how do you know that
God is good and keep walking it back has
he been faithful to you in other areas
of your life okay what are those areas
those life what did that faithfulness
look like did you see it in the moment
and start to like release the control so
that then you know you can start to be
like okay God I can trust you with this
really hard big thing because I've
walked it back and I remember the past
and so that's kind of how um my prayer
life evolved um from being like Oh yeah
I'm going to pray about it all the time
I'm never going to pray about it to
saying okay I need to talk to you about
it but let's let me walk it back and
start fresh that's really good that's
really good advice now with loss and
infertility you of course felt that
deeply but you weren't the only one in
the scenario that was feeling that so
how did your relationship with your
spouse and partner evolve
through the struggles of infertility and
miscarriage yeah I feel like this is
this is another hard one this is hard
one yeah the enemy wants nothing more
than to drive a wedge between you and
your spouse and he'll use anything that
he can um to take your eyes off of the
way marriage is supposed to look I
actually when I was kind of preparing
that we were going to talk about this I
read a statistic that said um couples
who experience a season of infertility
or a pregnancy loss are three times more
likely to call it quits it's like wow
the odds are like not in your favor um
and so you have to be com batling that
even though I would say the journey for
me was very different than the journey
for my husband um who also struggled
with it but struggled way differently
you know he wasn't the one that had the
loss or was bleeding or was doing this
and so it it it's just from totally
different Vantage points and so I would
say and again this isn't specifically
for infertility loss but I would say you
need to talk about it slash don't talk
about it got it clear yeah yeah tell
tell us more um it's like you need to
talk about it you need to even when you
don't want to say how you're feeling
even when you can't really articulate it
um but also it can't be all you talk
about otherwise it becomes all consuming
to your relationship and your your
identity as a couple becomes wrapped up
in this and that feels like it naturally
happens because you're like this is the
hardest thing that we're going through
and so trying to find that balance of
like we're going to go to dinner and
we're going to talk about it on Friday
and then on Saturday we're just going to
be a couple we're not going to talk
about
I mean it doesn't to be that rigid but
creating space for both of those um I
would say that you got to search for Joy
um where you can find it so it might be
an extra date night a weekend away cake
for breakfast I don't know that brings
me joy you know that might that probably
doesn't bring you Joy No it brings me
joy um uh but yeah seek ways um be
intentional about seeking ways as a
couple that are fun that can fill you up
that can kind of remember who you were
before this trial was like who you were
as a couple and then um back to even
that praying is to pray together which
can feel super awkward and uncomfortable
and I don't know sometimes I'm like this
feels so weird I don't what to say um
but you're praying for each other you're
praying um with each other um yeah like
I said I had a season where I stopped
praying and I was absolutely at my worst
and my marriage was probably at its
worst too during that season so you want
to avoid that I think it's so good to
even me though cuz I think
that when we go through
Seasons the right thing to do is to stay
Tethered to God sometimes that feels
impossible that you can't do that but I
love that you even mentioned that you
had a season where you weren't praying
and that that didn't work out either no
no you know that sometimes you think
like I feel so angry and so lost and so
without hope that this is I'm going to
try something else because right now
this isn't helping um but then to
hear yeah that's it's worse it's worse
it's worse um what advice would you give
to someone in the faith community who
wants to support a couple with
infertility or miscarriage I feel like
um having people see you is the gift um
and infertility and miscarriage and loss
and questions it just feels super
isolating um and you know what I think
makes it different is so if you have
cancer and you go through chemo you lose
your hair and so people know that you
are walking through cancer because there
are physical signs and they can see that
that is not the case um when it comes to
like infertility like people have no
idea what you're going through and so
you feel really unseen cuz I actually
think nowadays people talk about it more
than they did when I was really walking
through some of the thick of it and so
having people who just see you makes a
world of a difference um and so finding
ways that you can remind someone they're
seeing it might be a meal like a sweet
treat again it's like the sweet treats
for me it's the cake for me um it could
be a text that just says like hey
thinking about you um it's an awareness
to know that like uh Mother's Day and
baby showers are really hard days and so
I still feel like there's people on
mother's like Mother's Day actually
oddly is super complicated for me for me
now even having walked through it and
the way that the Lord has has crafted my
family mo like Mother's Day is not a
joyful day for me it like takes me back
to all the years that it was so painful
and I feel like I just feel like
people's tension because it's
complicated um so even just yeah like
hey saying to someone like this day I
know this day might be complicated for
you thinking about you love you you're
not saying I know it's complicated I
know how you're feeling but you're just
saying like hey I see you here's flowers
like on this day to help you think about
it um so just being sensitive to those
spaces
um the other thing I thought was like
creating a space
for um someone to just be with you so
they might want to talk about what's
going on there are times that I I might
wanted to talk but there are times that
like um you know one of my my friends
would like do you want to catch a movie
I'm like I do want to catch a movie and
I don't want to talk about anything um I
just want to laugh at this movie and eat
popcorn okay and chocolate cake and
chocolate they don't sell at the movie
theater but they should they should um
but yeah and so just having a space
where you're like if you want to talk
let's talk if you want to just go for a
walk and not talk about anything
important we don't we can do that too
now you were going through all of this
in this 10 years during a time that a
lot of your friends were building
families and everybody was having B
everybody was having babies how one how
was that for you two how do you support
your friends when you're in such a
painful place um and how do you even
handle kind of the feelings of I that
came along with that that's a good
question I once was really hurt I had a
friend who found out she was pregnant
and she didn't want to tell me and so I
was like the last one to know and she
was like so afraid to tell me and it
like crushed me cuz I was like oh my
gosh do you think that I don't like that
I can't Rejoice with you um now that's
not to say that it still didn't sting
because it did like it still Hur every
time someone popped up pregnant you're
like well good for you you know um but I
think that you can feel both things and
so you can both be joyful for a friend
or a family member who is experiencing
something really good and grieve what
you don't have um and it doesn't mean
that you're going to that one the right
emotion is always going to come out on
top but I think giving it space and
having friends who um recognize that
space and give you space so for me if I
was going to have a friend uh do a
pregnancy announcement in a really fun
way and a group of people I would love
to know ahead of time then I can choose
if I want to come or if I don't want to
come and I don't have to run the
surprise but just like being caught off
guard with something could be really
triggering and so just being like hey
I'm pregnant I'm going to tell everybody
tonight through this game that we're
going to play just so you know and then
I get to choose whether I get I want to
be a part of it or not instead of you
choosing for me um so that's one thing
um the biggest thing that I would say is
to not isolate I think isolation is so
so so dangerous I think it's the enemy's
biggest tool um when there is no truth
going in I don't know how you ever get
right side up again because just false
things can take root and seeds can grow
um and so I know it's hard because you
don't want to go out and you don't want
to hang out with people and you feel
crummy um but at least find one person
that you can be honest with and say like
I feel crummy this is crummy I'm not
having a good day um I would also say go
to church like it's hard um but
corporate worship and prayer and the
reading of God's word will always like
will not return void and so building
that habit to every week make sure that
you are in church and you've got one
person that you can check in and be
honest with the rest of the people you
can be fake with them doesn't matter you
need you need one person that who's
going to speak truth to you and love you
through that yeah because I think I mean
you already mentioned this but I think
one of the things about infertility too
is it's such
a it's I don't I don't mean that it's
such a secret but it's something that
people start trying to have babies in
privacy and at what point do you start
to let people in on the journey you know
um and trying to find that find that
time because it would be so easy to just
isolate even more how have you
experienced God's presence or guidance
in unexpect in unexpected ways
throughout your journey with infertility
and
loss yeah let's feel like let's see if I
can take it all and you know sum it up
it's like infertility um has been years
of of heartbreak um for me and it it
comes in different waves so I might have
a season where I'm feeling like really
confident and then there might be a day
when I'm like oh man I'm right back kind
of where I started um but I also feel
like my heart has changed more in the
last 15 years than I ever thought it
could um there is something so cool um
that God would be willing to meet me in
the middle of my mess and so it's like I
didn't have to work through those
questions and doubts and you know
accusations that I was making against
him for him to be willing to come into
it with me um and
so you know he will hold me accountable
to some of that flawed thinking um when
those thoughts start to to creep back in
and you know his reminders that like I
am seen like I am loved um God has
goodness for me even if it's different
than I could comprehend on this side of
Heaven um but the biggest thing I feel
like that I would want to say or want to
make sure that people hear is like there
is no shame in saying that your heart
and head are broken um and that they
don't match um I feel like that's the
only space where you can really know him
as healer and it's not necessarily
healer of like like my womb it's like
healer of my eyes like to be able to see
him like for who he really is um I think
there's nothing more authentic or
beautiful um than a woman who learns to
let God rebuild her life um day after
day no matter how many broken pieces
there are to pick up no matter how much
work you did the day before if you come
back and you're like it's all broken
again the next day I think that is like
where real authentic beautiful Faith Lie
um and it's like in that journey I feel
like God has shown me the most beautiful
pieces of himself and to say that he is
truly trustworthy even with those
crevices like of my heart that I like
have kept hidden away from
him that was such a beautiful answer and
I think something that can be so
applicable in so many different
places of Brokenness if you were to
leave our listeners with
anything what would you say to them yeah
I feel like whatever kind of heartbreak
you're going through if it's um you know
infertility a miscarriage secondary
infertility which in and of itself is so
complicated because um you know the
world is saying like you should be
satisfied with what you have but your
heart is still longing for more like
wherever that is it's like just the fact
that like God can handle it he is not
thwarted by how broken you feel um if
you will just like lay the pieces before
him and trust him to rebuild it like he
is trustworthy and good and faithful to
do that Holly thank you so much for
sharing you sharing your heart sharing
this really really hard side of it too
um I appreciate it I appreciate learning
about you and your journey and how you
went through all of it to get to the
other side I also want to say for
listeners especially during this time um
if you are struggling and feeling like
you are broken and at a loss You are not
alone and you will never be alone and
you have people that are there that have
been in similar similar places and that
are in your corner to cheer you on thank
you for listening to this episode this
has been parenting for the everyday tune
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