1 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:10,700 Welcome to another edition of the Always Be Testing podcast with your 2 00:00:10,700 --> 00:00:15,400 host, Ty De Grange. Get a guided tour of the world of growth, performance 3 00:00:15,500 --> 00:00:19,900 marketing, customer acquisition, paid media, and affiliate marketing. 4 00:00:20,500 --> 00:00:25,400 We talk with industry experts and discuss experiments and their learnings in growth, 5 00:00:25,500 --> 00:00:30,500 marketing, and life. Time to nerd out, check your biases at the door, and 6 00:00:30,500 --> 00:00:35,000 have some fun talking about data driven growth and lessons learned. W 7 00:00:36,900 --> 00:00:41,400 Welcome to another episode of the Always Be Testing podcast. 8 00:00:41,900 --> 00:00:46,700 I'm your host, Ty DeGrange, and I am pumped to have none other 9 00:00:46,700 --> 00:00:51,700 than Jordan Cooney with us today. What's up, Jordan? Ty. Hey, man. 10 00:00:51,700 --> 00:00:56,600 It's great to be here. Super pumped to be on the show and it's going to be a lot of fun to go through our 11 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:01,300 conversation today. Heck, yeah. Heck, yeah. We talked about a lot of good 12 00:01:01,300 --> 00:01:06,200 stuff already. We're diving into more SEO topics. We're diving into more 13 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:11,200 learnings, the theories of testing and learning and experimentation and what comes out of 14 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:16,000 that. I think for most people, they realize you're one of the leading SEO experts in the 15 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:21,000 world. You're kind of looking at the landscape that Google's throwing at us. 16 00:01:21,500 --> 00:01:25,700 Maybe start out with, like, what has Google done recently? 17 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:31,300 A lot of talk of them eating up the search engine results page, a lot of clicks going to Google. 18 00:01:31,500 --> 00:01:36,100 You got Moz coming out and kinda challenging them and saying, like, hey, I'm gonna do a study 19 00:01:36,100 --> 00:01:41,000 independently to see what the heck's going on. What's some of your view on 20 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:45,900 them kind of eating the SERP page and what's happening with how do people think 21 00:01:45,900 --> 00:01:50,700 about that and what should we do about it? I I mean, it's still pretty early days, I'd like to say. 22 00:01:51,100 --> 00:01:55,900 Although a lot of people would disagree with me. They they think, you know, like, AI is is has has 23 00:01:55,900 --> 00:02:00,500 hastened the pace of innovation. But here's my perspective on it. The pace of 24 00:02:00,500 --> 00:02:05,000 innovation is dictated by the consumer. Right? And the consumer is Google's users, 25 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:10,100 the people who are engaging with the SERP. And Google's constantly testing, 26 00:02:10,100 --> 00:02:14,400 constantly changing things up, some for revenue and profitability. 27 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:19,600 Right? Things like, we call it the hotel finder or shopping 28 00:02:19,700 --> 00:02:24,100 ads or other ways to incorporate advertising 29 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:29,500 and making it more sticky to searchers. But the 30 00:02:29,500 --> 00:02:34,300 other component that's evolving here is the evolution of the SERP and 31 00:02:34,300 --> 00:02:39,200 how AI is driving new experiences and how Google thinks 32 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:44,100 about new experiences. And from my perspective, the generalized SERP is 33 00:02:44,100 --> 00:02:48,800 pretty much the same than it was just six months ago when the 34 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:53,700 AI door just got blown open. However, Google is testing and testing hard 35 00:02:53,700 --> 00:02:58,700 and fast, and I wouldn't be surprised if we see, by the end 36 00:02:58,700 --> 00:03:03,400 of this year, a strong set of introduction to AI 37 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:08,300 specific experiences that are hopefully designated as 38 00:03:08,300 --> 00:03:12,800 AI, like, told the consumers that these are AI Yep. But that allow 39 00:03:12,900 --> 00:03:17,900 consumers to find and refine their their searches in 40 00:03:17,900 --> 00:03:22,400 a much more expedient and faster way. So this could be, more verticalization 41 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:28,100 in the SERPs, so more more vertical specific experiences that are powered by AI. 42 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:33,200 I think there's gonna be a huge disruption and a lot of disruption in local based searches and what we 43 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:38,000 see at a local level. Google has a lot of data already there through maps and ratings and 44 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,900 other other products that they've developed. And so I expect to see a lot more activity 45 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:48,100 around that. And then lastly, I would actually argue that we'll we'll see 46 00:03:48,100 --> 00:03:52,300 some more evolution around media in our media consumption. 47 00:03:52,900 --> 00:03:57,800 Today, Google allows consumers to see a lot of flexibility in media options and go 48 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:02,800 to different outlets or channels, but I wouldn't be surprised if Google starts to, let's just 49 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:07,600 say, give consumers the cliff notes in terms of what's happening. Interesting. 50 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:12,400 Interesting. So do you think it's more curation snippets 51 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:17,800 brought to media? How do you think that looks for for people in the 52 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:22,400 media side of it? A A hundred percent. I think it's either curation, It's 53 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:27,000 taking personalization, so users' behaviors and habits to then 54 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:31,800 surface more trustworthy, let's call it, media outlets or sources 55 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:37,100 and in synthesizing it, like, actually consolidating an entire article recording, 56 00:04:37,100 --> 00:04:38,900 there's there's new news coming out all the time. Right? 57 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:51,000 And and sometimes that news is is really well documented and refined, and 58 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,700 sometimes that news isn't. This morning, Mitch McConnell had 59 00:04:55,700 --> 00:05:00,500 this episode where he was addressing the public and for thirty seconds 60 00:05:00,500 --> 00:05:05,400 just stood at the podium not saying anything and then was escorted off by his 61 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:10,300 staff. So right now, that's the news that we have right now today as we're 62 00:05:10,300 --> 00:05:15,300 recording. I'm sure that that news story is gonna evolve six or seven times over the 63 00:05:15,300 --> 00:05:20,100 next week as we unfold what exactly happened to him. Did he 64 00:05:20,100 --> 00:05:25,100 just have, like, a heart attack? Did he just brain just stop working? Did, 65 00:05:25,100 --> 00:05:30,100 like, his notes all of a sudden get infiltrated by a bunch of liberals, and it 66 00:05:30,100 --> 00:05:34,700 said, you know, random support for Biden? I have no idea 67 00:05:35,100 --> 00:05:40,100 what actually happened, but I can tell you that the news story is gonna change. And what I 68 00:05:40,100 --> 00:05:44,800 can see Google doing is I can see them really creating a 69 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,900 narrative in their SERP that controls what is 70 00:05:49,500 --> 00:05:53,500 really true or fact versus what is us here speculating. 71 00:05:54,100 --> 00:05:59,000 Wow. Yeah. I mean, that could raises all all kinds of questions around 72 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:04,000 philosophy and feeding users what they maybe have already are leaning towards 73 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:09,200 versus maybe what would be beneficial, the contrarian view, the the 74 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:14,000 objective view of news, which is maybe not what we're going to solve for 75 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:18,700 today, but raises some philosophical questions about the power and influence 76 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:24,000 of Google in itself. More germane to kind of performance marketing and growth and what we can 77 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:29,000 actually control. It doesn't sound like it's materially changing from you view you, but 78 00:06:29,500 --> 00:06:34,300 do you think it's a mostly concern and preparation than it is reality? 79 00:06:34,300 --> 00:06:39,300 Like, brands are not necessarily massively altering their approach to SEO 80 00:06:39,300 --> 00:06:44,300 or approaching the SERP. Those that are making changes, kind of what are maybe what are you seeing in 81 00:06:44,300 --> 00:06:49,100 terms of what people can do and what people are doing? What are you advising clients to do? It's a 82 00:06:49,100 --> 00:06:53,900 phenomenal question. And I think there's a lot that needs to be done by brands, especially 83 00:06:54,700 --> 00:06:59,600 brands who are very comfortable with their positioning in the SERPs. Think 84 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:04,400 of a TripAdvisor in a lot of local and in hotel and 85 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:09,200 informational hotel and vacation type content. They've had 86 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:13,600 a a foothold on that type of content and that kind of search behavior 87 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:19,000 for the better part of a decade. But don't get comfortable because companies like 88 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,500 TripAdvisor are gonna have to use their AI technology 89 00:07:24,100 --> 00:07:27,700 to better determine and decipher exactly 90 00:07:28,700 --> 00:07:33,700 what Google's most interested in. If you have a page that's about vacationing 91 00:07:33,700 --> 00:07:38,700 in Hawaii, what are the the touch points or what are the cliff notes within that vacationing 92 00:07:38,900 --> 00:07:43,700 in Hawaii page that is going to be most useful in a SERP to get 93 00:07:43,700 --> 00:07:48,300 consumers to to understand or process the information? Is it the summary of the different 94 00:07:48,300 --> 00:07:53,300 islands? Is it the, vacation packages? Is it 95 00:07:53,500 --> 00:07:58,300 the types of events or activities that these different islands have? I 96 00:07:58,300 --> 00:08:03,200 chose Hawaii specifically because it's a complex vacation. It's not just like you're 97 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,500 going to one city that has just one thing to do. If you're going to Orlando, 98 00:08:08,100 --> 00:08:12,700 I'm pretty sure you can guess what you're doing there. Like, there's not a ton of, like, legwork 99 00:08:13,100 --> 00:08:18,000 in terms of, figuring out what you're gonna do in Orlando. But if you say you're gonna go on a vacation in Hawaii, 100 00:08:18,100 --> 00:08:22,800 there are a variety of options. There are a variety of international airports you can go to. There's 101 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:27,000 a varying degree of quality, size of city, 102 00:08:27,500 --> 00:08:32,300 outdoor activities that you can do based on where you go in Hawaii. And I'm sorry for all the 103 00:08:32,300 --> 00:08:36,900 listeners who haven't been to Hawaii yet. I highly encourage you to go visit. It's quite a beautiful place. But I will say 104 00:08:36,900 --> 00:08:41,800 this, it creates a unique scenario for the SERP in terms of what do I surface, what's the 105 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:46,800 most important relevant information for the user on the other end, and that's where TripAdvisor is gonna have 106 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:51,600 to get smart. How do I use AI to consolidate, better feature, 107 00:08:51,900 --> 00:08:56,600 highlight content so that I can acquire what is going to 108 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:01,200 be a less cluttered SERP. It's gonna be a 109 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:06,100 more clarified SERP that Google uses features like 110 00:09:06,100 --> 00:09:10,800 they've been using for the better part of the last decade, like people also ask or questions 111 00:09:11,500 --> 00:09:16,300 frequently asked questions in SERPs. These are features that Google puts in there 112 00:09:16,300 --> 00:09:20,600 because it helps users refine and identify what they actually want. 113 00:09:20,900 --> 00:09:25,800 Yeah. The usage of the snippets has to be going up into the right. It just seems like 114 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:30,800 it's, I don't know how are you seeing data to support that there's just 115 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:35,700 more and more of that happening in the SERP? Or is it kind of a mixed, met 116 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:40,800 mixed result? I mean, right now, today, I don't think a ton of it is happening. I think that 117 00:09:40,900 --> 00:09:45,500 Google is using what they've traditionally called SERP elements, which are 118 00:09:45,500 --> 00:09:50,500 powered by or SERP features, which are powered by AI. Right? Things 119 00:09:50,500 --> 00:09:55,100 like Answerbox, things like Knowledge Graph, things like the local pack. 120 00:09:55,500 --> 00:10:00,300 These are all powered or levered by AI. But AI as a 121 00:10:00,300 --> 00:10:05,000 journey in the search engine is a new way of us searching. It's introducing 122 00:10:05,500 --> 00:10:10,200 a new level of engagement that allows a 123 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:14,900 searcher to utilize this great AI tool to help it 124 00:10:15,300 --> 00:10:20,100 determine an outcome, hopefully, in in theory, faster, more efficiently, 125 00:10:20,700 --> 00:10:25,400 and in a more scalable way. Yeah. I was just referring to regular old snippets. 126 00:10:26,100 --> 00:10:30,900 I'm finding myself using the heck like, those a lot more than I have previously. So my 127 00:10:31,500 --> 00:10:36,400 triangulating thinking, like, is that what others are doing as well? Is that where the data's 128 00:10:36,500 --> 00:10:41,500 showing? I think that the snippet or the the answer box 129 00:10:41,500 --> 00:10:46,500 element or some sort of summary of information is what a 130 00:10:46,500 --> 00:10:51,200 lot of consumers are looking for. They're not looking to go to the recipe page 131 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:56,400 Yep. And scroll and scroll and scroll to find the ingredients. One hundred percent. Because 132 00:10:56,500 --> 00:11:01,200 because all I wanted was the ingredients. Come on. Just give it to me. And so so, like, I think 133 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:06,000 that's that's where we're at as consumers is like Yeah. We're okay with 134 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:11,200 the SERP telling us that this is the best recipe, but we're not okay with 135 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:16,200 having to spend three to five minutes going through an entire recipe page to actually find 136 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:21,200 what we want because it's cluttered with ads, it's cluttered with additional information, it's cluttered with 137 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:26,000 this long narrative and story about grandma passing that recipe down 138 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:31,000 sixteen generations. Yeah. Eighteen ad blocker poppers and crazy things. 139 00:11:31,100 --> 00:11:36,000 Exactly. And it's all great context if and only if the 140 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:41,000 user wants the context. Yeah. But if the user doesn't want the context, hopefully, they can use AI 141 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:46,000 or leverage technology like this to find what they actually need. Yeah. And back to the brands 142 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:50,500 that we're, you know, kind of working with closely to figure out growth and things for, 143 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:55,700 what are you there's a lot of talk about using AI to generate 144 00:11:55,700 --> 00:12:00,400 content. What have been results there? Like, are brands actually doing that 145 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:05,200 effectively? Absolutely. Let's take a SERP experience that is very common 146 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:10,100 today, FAQs. So you have a ranking result, you rank number one, 147 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:14,900 you got a couple of frequently asked questions that are relevant to that page. This happens 148 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:20,200 in various categories, everything from ecommerce to travel to finance to just 149 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,900 about everything. FAQ is a very common SERP element that shows up. 150 00:12:25,500 --> 00:12:30,500 One of the things you can use AI for is to help better map the intention 151 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:35,200 of a question to the purpose of the page, which then can, in theory, 152 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:40,500 improve the exposure or the click through rate because you have highly relevant ask ask 153 00:12:40,500 --> 00:12:45,500 questions. Right? Many of these pages already have six, seven, eight questions on 154 00:12:45,500 --> 00:12:50,500 it. But what are the ones that are most important because Google's only gonna give you a preference to two? 155 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:55,500 Those are the types of things that we're working with companies to help them better use 156 00:12:55,500 --> 00:12:59,800 AI to, at scale, determine things like what are the best, 157 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:05,200 frequently asked questions to show on a page, or what are some of the best reviews to surface 158 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,700 on this page, or how can we better map images 159 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:14,800 or other media to these pages? These are the types of things that AI can help you 160 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:19,600 do at scale with the right prompts and logic and data inputs, to 161 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:24,400 support the brand and the mission of that particular page or content. That's awesome. 162 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:29,900 Let's say g two c e com brand. Let's say they're in health and wellness. Say they're 163 00:13:29,900 --> 00:13:34,700 doing, I don't know, range of fifty to fifty million a year. Let's say 164 00:13:34,700 --> 00:13:39,700 they've got kind of their paid machine running quite well and some good content out 165 00:13:39,700 --> 00:13:44,300 there, blog, reviews, trying to kind of think of a case that might be 166 00:13:44,300 --> 00:13:49,300 interesting for you and what similar to what you've seen and come across. What are 167 00:13:49,300 --> 00:13:54,100 some of the core building blocks that they need to be thinking about now maybe 168 00:13:54,100 --> 00:13:58,800 versus what been in the past? Like, what's kind of the checklist that they kinda need to 169 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:03,800 nail at a macro level to be successful with SEO with content? Yeah. That's a great question. I 170 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:08,800 mean, you mentioned health care right off the bat. So one of the big things that I think a lot about when I think 171 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:13,600 of health care or finances, what how are you gonna evolve the signals 172 00:14:13,900 --> 00:14:18,600 you provide consumers to be a trusting website? And this is 173 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:23,500 unique to these types of categories because of the fact that they're 174 00:14:23,500 --> 00:14:28,500 not just selling a a t shirt. Mhmm. They're a service 175 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:33,400 that has huge implications to our livelihood, right, finance and 176 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:38,100 health as two examples. And if you think about a health website, today, you know, 177 00:14:38,300 --> 00:14:43,300 you might feature the doctors that are on the that wrote the article or that are part of the practice. 178 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:48,500 You might have an about us page that details how, how, you know, you've been won seventeen 179 00:14:48,700 --> 00:14:53,400 awards that nobody knows the name of. You know, these are things that 180 00:14:53,900 --> 00:14:58,900 hospitals and medical type websites often do. But we need to start 181 00:14:58,900 --> 00:15:03,300 thinking about evolving that trust factors and trust as a website 182 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:08,300 as we move into an AI driven world. Right? 183 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:13,600 And one of those trust signals might be to share 184 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,700 with consumers when a particular page is 185 00:15:19,100 --> 00:15:24,000 doctors or from one of our health professionals or if it's just an informational page that was built for 186 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:29,000 marketing purposes. Right? That would be interesting. Deciphering that. Right? Kind of 187 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,600 putting a a notice on these pages because we want our consumers to know 188 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:38,300 that doctor Sally over here put this lovely page together for 189 00:15:38,300 --> 00:15:43,200 you. Or over here, some marketing guy named Jordan just happened to throw this page up 190 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:48,100 up there for you. Another thing that will be really interesting for health and medical to think about 191 00:15:48,300 --> 00:15:53,000 around trust signals and how you create these trust signals is to develop 192 00:15:53,300 --> 00:15:57,200 experiences that allow your consumer 193 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,900 to adequately control the information that's being provided. 194 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:08,600 So one of the things that I'm seeing a lot of health and medical sites do is instead 195 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:13,300 of there being just, like, a an inquiry form or a submission form 196 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:18,600 to use some of the technology that's already available to us. Right? Like, just instead of you 197 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:23,300 submitting a form, how about you submit this information through your Google account? How about you submit this information 198 00:16:23,500 --> 00:16:28,400 through some other means that already can identify you, and now 199 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:33,400 we don't have to have this friction of storing your data or knowing this information 200 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:38,000 about you? These are really important trust signals that these types of institutions 201 00:16:38,500 --> 00:16:43,100 need to think about because it changes the long term game as to how 202 00:16:43,100 --> 00:16:48,000 Google analyzes and understands the importance of how you're protecting 203 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:53,100 consumers' data information. And that's becoming more and more important in an AI driven world. 204 00:16:53,300 --> 00:16:58,300 That's when I think about when I think about health and medical is is how do you how do you evolve that. Right? And how 205 00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:03,100 do you evolve that based on the type of content and experiences that you're serving 206 00:17:03,100 --> 00:17:07,700 up? Yeah. Everything from your profiles to the services you provide to maybe 207 00:17:07,700 --> 00:17:12,200 even more programmatic experiences, like, if you have, like, a whole directory 208 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:17,100 of of of content of of some kind. Yeah. You're addressing the personalization 209 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:22,500 demands and the trend that's become so massive. You're addressing the, you know, privacy 210 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,700 related concerns and changes that have come in cookie deprecation 211 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:33,100 to GDPR. So your counsel there is really interesting and I think really 212 00:17:33,100 --> 00:17:37,700 valuable because it kind of hits on some of the biggest issues for the health and 213 00:17:37,700 --> 00:17:42,600 wellness category. You have to develop that trust with the user and also address 214 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:47,400 all these things that have been, you know, thrown at us as marketers and folks working in digital. 215 00:17:47,500 --> 00:17:52,100 Exactly. I love that. Topic near and dear to our heart, two of the most 216 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:57,300 disrespected, misunderstood performance marketing channels, SEO, and 217 00:17:57,300 --> 00:18:02,200 affiliate. Here we are. Disrespected might be a little harsh. Misunderstood, 218 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:08,200 miscategorized, but valued still. Right? Right. Right. 219 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:13,200 Could bring a lot of money to your business, can work really well. There's certainly pockets of people that get 220 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:18,200 it. They understand it. And a lot of people are concerned about how do we get them to play 221 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,500 together? How do we get SEO and affiliate to kind of complement one another? 222 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:28,100 I'd love to hear your perspective on this. We've talked about it over the years from our days at 223 00:18:28,100 --> 00:18:33,000 eBay to to various experiences with brands. But what are you seeing 224 00:18:33,100 --> 00:18:37,800 as as ways that we can kind of make those things sing together right 225 00:18:38,100 --> 00:18:43,000 now? I think that there's a lot that affiliate has always taught not 226 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:47,300 only SEO, but but web development in general. Right? Like, 227 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:52,100 many affiliate players really kind of chart the path 228 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:57,400 for where and how we can develop experiences for the core brand. 229 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:02,600 And I think that that's an important thing to always be mindful of is if you don't have a strong pulse 230 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:07,500 of what of what is happening with affiliate and affiliate partners, you're not gonna have a strong 231 00:19:07,500 --> 00:19:12,500 pulse on how to develop and define your website's future. And at the end of the day, that's what we're always talking 232 00:19:12,500 --> 00:19:17,300 about here is we're talking about digital demand, how you create digital demand, through 233 00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:22,200 specific channels. So that that's one thing to just kind of catalog in the back of your mind is 234 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:27,100 that this is a group of innovators who typically identify ways to 235 00:19:27,100 --> 00:19:31,900 leverage traffic to help brands grow, but that lever is 236 00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:36,800 oftentimes what helps the brand itself grow in the future. So one thing to keep in mind. The 237 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:41,500 second thing here is I get a suspicious feeling because of the ability for 238 00:19:41,500 --> 00:19:46,300 affiliates to be nimble and fast, they're going to use AI faster than most brands 239 00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:51,300 can. Whether it's in content generation, whether it's in development 240 00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:56,300 of experiences, whether it's in refining 241 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:01,500 or defining what is is is shown on a website or web page, 242 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:06,700 they're gonna use AI a lot faster than most brands can, which means that you have to 243 00:20:06,700 --> 00:20:11,400 be attentive to where and how AI is being used and what could or 244 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:16,100 possibly be an AI experience. At least for the foreseeable future, 245 00:20:16,500 --> 00:20:21,500 the AI is gonna be a wild west, and there's not gonna be a stamp on any of these website that says 246 00:20:21,500 --> 00:20:26,400 built by AI. I mean, as much as I'd love for that to be the case, which probably should be, 247 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:31,300 and hopefully if any legislator of our country is listening, they'll take that to heart. 248 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:36,500 We are not gonna see from affiliate or from brands this designation 249 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,900 of AI creation. So we have to be smart marketers. We have to 250 00:20:41,900 --> 00:20:46,200 be smart innovators to identify where and how 251 00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:51,600 brands or affiliates are using these technologies to their advantages, to their 252 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:56,400 advantage, excuse me, and whether or not it is something that's applicable to our business. I 253 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:01,100 think that is probably the most, unique way that affiliate and 254 00:21:01,100 --> 00:21:06,100 SEO are gonna merge together is is that as affiliates develop new 255 00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:11,100 experiences using AI, the SEO landscape is gonna change. And who and 256 00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:16,100 what shows up is gonna change, and SEO's ability to identify 257 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:21,400 that and utilize that to create points of scale, whether it is for the affiliate brand 258 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,900 or the affiliate itself or the brand, is gonna be a really kind of unique 259 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:31,000 territory that that we haven't seen before. Yeah. I love that. Your 260 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,800 team, you you do a lot with unlocking growth and helping brands with 261 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,900 SEO, with content. You also done a lot in the placement of 262 00:21:40,900 --> 00:21:45,700 great talent, sourcing of great talent where there's demand and need there, which is high. 263 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:51,400 When you're looking on the talent side and you're thinking about candidates, like, what are 264 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:56,300 you looking for from an SEO perspective? What are some of the things that rise above? What are the some of the 265 00:21:56,300 --> 00:22:01,300 things that really get you excited as someone who's able to kinda tap your network 266 00:22:01,300 --> 00:22:06,200 and source and find folks? What are what are people looking for in that category as 267 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:11,200 well on the SEO and content side of growth? Specifically from 268 00:22:11,900 --> 00:22:16,400 from a talent perspective, like, what's happening in the market and, like, who's out 269 00:22:16,500 --> 00:22:20,700 there. I still believe that it is an incredibly challenging 270 00:22:21,900 --> 00:22:26,800 market for most brands to navigate. And it's not to say that 271 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:31,600 there aren't great recruiting agencies and and talent organizations out there that can help with 272 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:36,500 it, but it it almost requires a level of expertise to 273 00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:41,500 be able to decode, is this a good affiliate marketer? Is this a good content marketer? 274 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:46,600 Is this a good SEO for my team? And the reason is that I I like to call it it's like a Rubik's 275 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:51,500 cube. You're solving a Rubik's cube. It's three-dimensional. It's not just are you finding the, 276 00:22:51,900 --> 00:22:56,800 if a person has the right skills, but you're actually trying to map those skills to what 277 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:01,400 the company's status is. Like, where are they in their development of this type of a 278 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:06,000 program? And then you're trying to combine that all 279 00:23:06,500 --> 00:23:11,200 with the availability that's in the market. Like, who's out there that will fit into these roles? 280 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:16,200 Mhmm. I still think there's a huge mismatch. I still see a lot of SEOs that are hired into the 281 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:21,000 wrong roles. I still see a lot of content marketers who are ill equipped 282 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:26,200 to to serve the strategic needs of an organization. Ultimately, I think that 283 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:31,000 that's gonna change quickly because what I'm seeing, to answer your question, is a lot of organizations 284 00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:35,900 are bringing on advisors like myself from an SEO standpoint. But they're bringing on advisors 285 00:23:36,100 --> 00:23:41,100 to help with that journey of recruiting and finding the right fit, being part 286 00:23:41,100 --> 00:23:45,700 of the interview process, and encouraging their HR teams, their 287 00:23:45,700 --> 00:23:50,600 internal teams, that this isn't just a decision we can make alone within our 288 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:55,400 four walls. We need an outside party that can help us value and identify the right 289 00:23:55,400 --> 00:24:00,300 skills and talent. It's really fascinating because it's almost like saying, hey, we almost need 290 00:24:00,300 --> 00:24:05,100 this like fractional CMO type, fractional head of growth 291 00:24:05,100 --> 00:24:10,000 type that's seen a ton of stuff because 292 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,800 you make a mistake on the hiring side. We've all been there. It can be extremely cost 293 00:24:15,100 --> 00:24:20,100 costly. Even on the agency side, it can be extremely costly. We talk to a lot of clients that 294 00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:24,900 have been burned. And having that voice of reason internally, even sometime 295 00:24:25,100 --> 00:24:29,500 part time can be sounds like a great insurance policy. Interesting. 296 00:24:30,300 --> 00:24:35,100 No doubt. And I think it gets interesting when you go from organizations who 297 00:24:35,100 --> 00:24:40,000 are looking for a chief growth officer or they're looking for a CMO or they're 298 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,600 looking for a VP of demand gen or even a director depending on the size of the 299 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:49,200 organization. These highly leadership driven, 300 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:54,200 strategic driven type roles are great. But what I'm finding is that many of those 301 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,800 individuals, especially with affiliate and SEO, since we're talking a lot about those two, they 302 00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:04,400 often lack the experience in hiring those roles to know how to hire the right 303 00:25:04,900 --> 00:25:09,700 channel owner and the person who's, at the end of the day, directly responsible 304 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,800 for the channel itself. Yeah. No. It's awesome. I really like that. 305 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:20,000 What do you think people get wrong on the content creation side with something they often 306 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:25,200 don't do right? Oh, man. That's a tough one, Ty. You know? Content 307 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:30,100 creation is a really challenging topic, and I think that it's challenging 308 00:25:30,100 --> 00:25:35,100 for content marketers, so the people who eat, live, and breathe content on a daily basis. 309 00:25:35,300 --> 00:25:40,100 It's hard for SEOs, and it's hard for brands. I think that the the biggest 310 00:25:40,100 --> 00:25:45,100 challenge on the content side is a lack of alignment. Usually, 311 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:50,200 when when I hear from my clients that volume isn't at the pace 312 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:55,000 that they want it to be at or the quality of the content isn't what they 313 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,700 were expecting, it's usually a misalignment problem. It's a 314 00:25:59,700 --> 00:26:04,400 misalignment with what is being produced. It's a misalignment with how it's being 315 00:26:04,900 --> 00:26:09,800 evaluated. It is a misalignment organizationally towards 316 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:14,600 the outcome of what is, in essence, content marketing. And I think that 317 00:26:14,700 --> 00:26:19,700 it's really funny because what I'm seeing is the CMO, right, that function in these 318 00:26:19,700 --> 00:26:24,200 organizations or the leaders that support that CMO, they're struggling mightily 319 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,600 to help shape and define the alignment to to get to points of scale. 320 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:34,600 But what I see with small brands is when small brands get on that cadence and they're able to move 321 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:39,500 quickly, they grow really fast. I've seen enterprises who can 322 00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:44,300 align themselves with strong programmatic strategies, implement the utility of data and 323 00:26:44,300 --> 00:26:49,200 scale to drive content and pages, and they grow really fast. But when there is no 324 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:54,000 alignment, you can bet that content marketing is the fastest channel to 325 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,600 fail. What percentage of companies that are kind of like in the game and really 326 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:03,300 like over a certain size, I don't know, like, a lot of the companies we talk to, 327 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,800 what percent do you think are actually tapping into content creation effectively? 328 00:27:09,100 --> 00:27:14,000 Effectively is is a very small percent. I think I think it's definitely like that traditional, 329 00:27:14,100 --> 00:27:19,100 like, bell curve. Right? It's like maybe ten percent are doing it really, really exceptionally 330 00:27:19,100 --> 00:27:23,600 well. Eighty percent are just trying their hearts out. 331 00:27:24,100 --> 00:27:29,000 And then there's the the bottom ten percent that are just a complete catastrophe and 332 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:34,000 can never get anything published and literally get in their own way. And those are 333 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:39,000 those political nightmares that everyone's wondering why seventeen people need to 334 00:27:39,300 --> 00:27:44,200 review a piece of content before it gets published, and the piece of content that's being reviewed is 335 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,900 the, policy disclaimer in the footer. So, you know, that's like, you 336 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:54,300 know, it's like, what are we doing here? You know? I think seventeen people might read it for the 337 00:27:54,300 --> 00:27:59,100 next ten years. Right. Exactly. That's the real challenge is how you move 338 00:27:59,100 --> 00:28:04,000 yourself out of that eighty percent because that's where most of the businesses are Yep. Into a high performer. 339 00:28:04,300 --> 00:28:09,000 And the crazy thing is because most businesses are in the eighty percent, a lot of companies see 340 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,800 success from content marketing because of that reason. You're seeing wins. You're seeing wins 341 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:18,700 happen. But in order for you to be in the top ten percent, in order for you to own a category, in 342 00:28:18,700 --> 00:28:23,600 order for you to to dominate a topic, you you got to be in that top ten percent. I love it. That's 343 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:28,200 what we're striving for. Speaking of striving, some fun topics. 344 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:34,500 We need a, underrated red wine recommendation. What's your what's your go to right now, Jordan? 345 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,400 Oh my goodness, man. I did not see that one coming. Underrated 346 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:45,000 red wine. It is summertime, and it is hot everywhere. So maybe Yeah. I know. 347 00:28:45,100 --> 00:28:49,800 Maybe broaden it to wine period. But I would say 348 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,900 that my underrated red wine right now 349 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:59,300 is likely gonna be you know what? I got I got I got it. 350 00:28:59,300 --> 00:29:04,100 I got it perfectly. So my my brother bought a case of 351 00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:08,600 South American, red wine, and there's a a great selection 352 00:29:08,900 --> 00:29:13,600 of the nonconventional grapes, 353 00:29:14,300 --> 00:29:18,700 wines coming out of Argentina, Uruguay, Chile that aren't your 354 00:29:18,900 --> 00:29:23,800 normal, local wines from those regions. Right? You think Argentina. You think Malbec. 355 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:28,800 Right? You think Chile. You think Carmenere coming out of there. Right? Mhmm. But I'm 356 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:33,000 seeing amazing Cab Francs. I'm seeing amazing Cabernet Sauvignon, 357 00:29:33,500 --> 00:29:38,400 amazing Tannas that are just coming out of these regions that most of the time you think United States 358 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:43,400 or you think, you know, Europe for those, but it's actually really fun. So next time you're at the grocery 359 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:48,100 store, you're looking at some South American wines, don't go for the conventional 360 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:53,200 grape. Go for the oftentimes, very well known grapes, but from those regions, 361 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,900 that's my recommendation right now. That's amazing. I don't think anyone would have guessed that and said that, 362 00:29:57,900 --> 00:30:02,700 and I certainly wouldn't have. So I'm glad I asked. That's awesome. Good. A really, really 363 00:30:02,700 --> 00:30:07,400 important part of the pod, what on earth are the Packers gonna 364 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:12,400 do without your friend, Aaron Rodgers? This is a good question. This is a good question. 365 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:17,300 So I was ready for Aaron Rodgers to depart. Understandably. Yeah. Understandably. 366 00:30:17,300 --> 00:30:22,300 You know, I'm speaking of podcasts. I was getting sick and tired of seeing him on podcast. I was getting sick and 367 00:30:22,300 --> 00:30:27,300 tired of seeing him go into dark rooms for long periods of time. You know? So, candidly, I was I 368 00:30:27,300 --> 00:30:32,200 was ready I was ready for the drama to move on, you know, and we've had a lot of drama in Green 369 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,900 Bay. You loved it. Yeah. Yeah. I was I was ready for Hollywood to move on. So the 370 00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:41,900 unfortunate news for the Packers is they're probably not gonna win as many games. The man 371 00:30:41,900 --> 00:30:46,800 is talented. Right? And he he could sling a football. But, Jordan Love, which, 372 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:51,800 by the way, has a phenomenal name, just to be perfectly clear about I know. His his parents and how excellent 373 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:56,600 they were at naming choices. Amazing. The unfortunate thing is he can't sling a football 374 00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:01,400 like like the old man Rogers. So No. Losses are in our future, 375 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:06,600 many of them likely. You know, if we're eight and nine, I'll be proud of our season, 376 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,700 but that that's my prediction right now for the greenbackers. I love it. And, hey, you know what? It's a team 377 00:31:11,700 --> 00:31:16,700 game. You gotta rebuild and start somewhere. Agreed. It's gonna be fun to watch. Agreed. I'm 378 00:31:16,700 --> 00:31:19,100 looking forward to next year's draft for a new quarterback. 379 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:27,000 Hey. You know, maybe something on the market you can pick up in a trade. Who knows? If the forty niners end up 380 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,400 with three good quarterbacks, we might have to. I'm willing to make a deal. 381 00:31:31,900 --> 00:31:36,700 And I love it. I love it. Ladies and gentlemen, it's been a pleasure to have 382 00:31:36,700 --> 00:31:41,600 Jordan Cooney, SEO content growth expert, as always, breaking down the 383 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,600 learnings of business, marketing, life, and in this case, wanting football. Love it. What 384 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:51,200 more do you want? Exactly. Great to be here. Thank you, Ty, for the opportunity. Always.