Mike Kostyo (00:00)
On this episode of the mess hall, we get into the 100 recipe challenge. We're halfway through cooking 100 new recipes in 2026, and we discuss what we've learned, recipes we've disliked, and we go down a perfect pancake rabbit hole. Then we chat with Beth Kimmerley of Attribute Analytics, diving into how she tests the sensory impact of new food products. We discuss our sensory experiences at the National Restaurant Association show.

Talk about whether the taste and texture of food products we know and love is getting worse, and posit whether we'll grow an antenna out of our heads in the future to experience senses in a new way.

Mike Kostyo (01:17)
So we were talking about what to tackle for the beginning of this episode. And one issue that came up over and over at N the National Restaurant Association show when we were talking to clients and colleagues and friends was where we both were in our a hundred recipe challenge. And so to lay the foundation, so I don't think we've talked about it on the podcast before. I did this challenge ⁓ years ago during COVID, actually, where I wanted to cook.

more out of my cookbooks. They were just sitting on the shelf. There were plenty of them that I hadn't cooked out of ever. And so I was like, I'm gonna cook out of a hundred different cookbooks over the course of the year. it it was the year that I renovated my kitchen. And so it was a mistake to do it that year. I was cooking in my living room. I was doing dishes in my bathtub, but it was really fun. I'm really glad that I did it. So this year I was like I want to do it again. I have my kitchen and

You were like, I'd love to do it too. We've have a few other friends and colleagues that are doing it as well. And so we're about halfway through the year. And I figured we'd just check in, talk about wins, things that we've liked, cookbooks that we've fallen in love with again, and ⁓ just how it's impacted your cooking overall.

Maeve Webster (02:28)
yes, so I'm behind is my ⁓ major check-in. ⁓

Mike Kostyo (02:29)
⁓ But what does that mean? Where are you when you say you're behind? I think you're in

the th thirties, right?

Maeve Webster (02:37)
I think I might have just broken through the 40s, so I'm not like horribly behind. But I am a little behind and we'll probably get further behind now with the move. And we're having to pack a whole bunch of stuff up and you know, things will get cre.

Mike Kostyo (02:43)
No.

Yeah. Although I will say

on that, so because we have one more month to go before we're halfway through the year. If you get to 50 recipes by the end of June, you're on target. But I would say the last time I did it, and it's partly because my kitchen wasn't done until the end of the year.

But I cook so many more recipes at the end of the year. One, it's colder and you're just cooking more like in the summer. And two, the holidays, you know, you're I mean, I did fourteen recipes for Thanksgiving. So even if you think you're behind, I feel like you're gonna cook way more at the end of the year than you think you will.

Maeve Webster (03:12)
Yeah.

I think you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, particularly around the holidays and baking and and all and all that. I think I can catch up. And again, it's not like there are there are no stakes, right? Right. This is a survivor. It's not like something's at stake or anything like that. But it's true. It's true. no, but I mean it's been great. You and I talked about this, that we've been so busy over the last couple of years, and you just let

Mike Kostyo (03:31)
Yes.

It right, it's made up. There's no prizes. Exactly. Seriously. Yes. Yes. It doesn't matter. Yes.

Maeve Webster (03:53)
Life and work and everything getting the way of being in the kitchen. And I've it's so nice being in the kitchen. It for me, it's so relaxing to be able to focus on one task or even like multiple tasks toward one goal. it's every time I do it, I I remember how much I love it and just how calming and zen-like I end up getting, even when there are a million things going on in the kitchen.

Mike Kostyo (04:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (04:19)
It doesn't freak me out the way, you know, having a million things at other places can freak me out. So so it's I mean, I'm really, really glad we're doing it. ⁓

Mike Kostyo (04:22)
Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And again,

because the stakes are low. nobody's grading you on it, for me in particular, I'm just eating it myself. If it doesn't turn out well, it doesn't matter at the end of the day. But so even if you're making ⁓ three courses and you have all these ideas, it's not stressful in the same way that work, assignments are stressful and deadlines are stressful. And even this weekend, so it was Memorial Day weekend this past weekend.

Maeve Webster (04:31)
Right.

Yeah.

Mike Kostyo (04:52)
And I I did so many things around my condo, around my building, and I still cooked at the end of every single day. And there were a couple of days where I was like, I'm so tired, my body was aching. I was like, I'm just gonna order pizza. And I was no, I bought the ingredients, like I really should do it. And it is, it's that like I'll put a record on, I'll make a cocktail, I'll cook, and let the end of that hour or two of cooking, and you sit down and you have a glass of wine and you feel like you accomplished something.

Is the best part of my day when I decide that I'm gonna cook during that day.

Maeve Webster (05:24)
Yeah, and for me, you know, having Brian, obviously there there's a little bit more steaks because somebody they don't like it, that is dinner. But but, you know, the act of preparing a meal, and I've always felt that e even at the cafe, when we had the cafe, the act of preparing food for others and then seeing them enjoy that food and really appreciate it. Even if I don't eat it. I mean, if I have a really large dinner party, I rarely eat the food that I make.

Mike Kostyo (05:28)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. ⁓

Right? Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (05:52)
Because I'm worried it's not gonna be good, but because you're just you exactly, and you're more

Mike Kostyo (05:53)
No, yeah. You're busy and you're talking and yeah. Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (05:58)
focused on making sure everybody else enjoys it and that it's all getting out and whatever. yeah, so that's been really nice. Your your point about planning though, I I think living in a more rural area, that is probably the biggest hurdle, ⁓ other than just being busy and and all the travel that we've been doing. Because I can't

Mike Kostyo (06:06)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (06:19)
I mean, I can, but it's like an hour trip to and from. So if it's like a spur of the moment thing, it's harder to get that energy up to be like, all right, now I have to go to the grocery store and you know, and when are we gonna eat? You know. But ⁓ so that's been a little bit more of a challenge. So when I'm when my most productive weeks or when I really think about what I'm gonna do the week before, like on Wednesday, and then actually go and shop for everything so that I've got it all in and then every single night I'm like, I know this is what I'm gonna make.

Mike Kostyo (06:21)
No, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (06:48)
And that's what I'm doing. And then it's a lot easier for me to do it. But if I haven't done that planning ahead of time, then it's easier for me to say, let's just order pizza.

Mike Kostyo (06:57)
Yeah, definitely. I mean that that's a good point. I am not to brag, but I am within walking distance of four grocery stores. And so if I decide that I'm gonna make something and they're all very different, there's a Whole Foods, there's ⁓ a local import market. it's literally walkable for me, on the other hand, this year I've been much better at planning and I'm much better at

making something if I know it's on the schedule and I did grocery shop for it over the weekend. And so I do try to plan, you know, sometimes things go out the window, but I try to plan the menu. And I'm so much better at sticking to it when I do do that. And I I would say the other part of it is I think that's even more true in the winter when I'm stocking up for the week. Whereas in the summer I'm out and about and I'm walking more and like I I'll like make a point of walking to the grocery store.

Maeve Webster (07:21)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mike Kostyo (07:42)
But also go to the farmers markets more. And that's when it's like, this is in season. And so I know I've talked about it before. I don't know, but on the podcast, but in our newsletter, eat your books. Eat your books is the greatest resource. If you whether you're doing this challenge or not, now they have a an actual app. So all it is is it indexes all the cookbooks that you own by recipe and ingredient. And so you can search through all your cookbooks. And so when you go to the farmers market and you find something weird and you're like, do I have a cookbook that

Maeve Webster (07:45)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Kostyo (08:11)
⁓ has a recipe that features it. Inevitably you have multiple that feature, and you have a massive, massive collection. But ⁓ I mean, even this weekend, I decided I went shopping for the vegetables that I'm gonna grow ⁓ this summer. And I look through, I look through eat your books to see what should I grow. Are there things that, I'd I'd love to grow fava beans. I have a ton of recipes saved for fava beans. I love them, fresh fava beans and

It's actually weirdly hard to find fava bean seeds in Chicago and I'm already too late for them. But eat your books is a great resource.

Maeve Webster (08:44)
you turned me on teacher books

and I have not even made a dent in getting my cookbooks loaded into it. Boy, that that is definitely that's probably an unpacking project. Yeah, either unpacking or packing for sure. ⁓ yes, I'm gonna have to do that. but but just with what I do have, I yeah, it's I I love it. If you've got more than 10 cookbooks on your shelves, this is this is something you absolutely need. yeah, so the

Mike Kostyo (08:48)
Ha ha ha.

While you're packing up, yes, you it's perfect for it. Yeah, yes, yeah, yes.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (09:12)
⁓ seed thing is interesting. Actually, I was plant shopping. We were just talking about this, ⁓ and getting the vegetable garden. Even though we're selling, I wanted to plant the vegetable garden, if if not just for looks alone. but we went shopping for plants.

Mike Kostyo (09:16)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah no Imagine your

your rural life in Vermont when you cut yeah Yes Get those trad wipes Yeah

Maeve Webster (09:28)
It's true. Right. Exactly. Just trying to draw people in with what just so everybody knows there's a house that's going to be on the market. Anyone looking to move to Vermont, a second home. so

even but you're right, fava beans were hard ⁓ plants. I was looking for plants, not seeds. ⁓ fava bean plants were hard to find. And when I was at the yeah, the when I was at the nursery.

Mike Kostyo (09:43)
Mm.

Mm mm. No, I've never seen the plant. Yeah. Yeah.

Maeve Webster (09:53)
That we typically go to. It's a farm right up the road. They're fantastic. I was listening to them speak with a couple looking for a very specific plant that they had last year and they said they had a really hard time getting seeds this year.

Mike Kostyo (10:05)
Hmm, huh. Any particular reason why? Hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Really. Seriously. Yeah. When I'm sure I could have got them online, but I just didn't plan. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And when I buy seeds online, it doesn't make any sense to buy one thing of seeds. So you buy a million things of seeds. And I don't have a huge I'm in Chicago. I don't have a huge garden.

Maeve Webster (10:07)
I didn't hear her say ⁓ say why, but I mean, given everything going on, it could be a million and one different problems. ⁓ yeah. So

Yeah, and like you said, at some point then it's too late and what are you gonna do? you know, I

yeah, sure.

Mike Kostyo (10:34)
Ha ha.

Maeve Webster (10:34)
Right, yeah,

no. ⁓ well plus you have to have a place to start them and you know, like that whole thing. And I don't know about you. So I was not that I knew we were gonna talk about this today, but I was looking through the pictures that I've taken of the last 30, some odd almost forty recipes. Granted, we started in the winter.

Mike Kostyo (10:37)
Yes, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (10:51)
Right. So there was that. And I did start with a couple of cookbooks like vit vitals and and things like that, which are really down home. But I did realize a lot of the foods that I was preparing were like on the brown sides, which were delicious. But ⁓ yeah, now they are brown brown, brown foods are delicious. but I did realize now that the summer is hitting, I need to be a little bit more cognizant of getting some more color in there.

Mike Kostyo (10:51)
Yeah. I know it's so dark, yeah.

Mm.

Brown a lot of brown yeah. Yeah. Yes yeah. Brown foods are delicious. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Maeve Webster (11:20)
but then of course

I made pancakes over the weekend. That didn't help but

Mike Kostyo (11:22)
Yeah, really. When do you follow the recipes? So the first year that I did it, I followed the recipes to a T. I was like, I'm going to do exactly what the cookbook author says that I should do. And the reason behind it was I really wanted to trust them and trust their process. And there were, there were multiple times where I was skeptical of a recipe and I would have tweaked it and it turned out and they were right about it.

I will say the flip side was there were a lot of times where the recipes are wrong and you ruined a dish and I wish I had trusted my gut. So this year I'm not being this year is also just the it's my second time doing it, so I feel a little bit more loosey-goosey with it. But this year I'm definitely, not following everything to a T.

Maeve Webster (12:04)
So I'm doing what you did the first year, for the most part, following them to a tea, particularly if they are recipes for things that I've really either never made or from really unique books like Vittles, which is a very specific cuisine. So I didn't want to alter it to be modern or like non-Appalachian, Appalachian. but then again, this weekend when I made the pancakes, since I've obviously made pancakes before, then I added a couple of additional like flavors because yeah.

Mike Kostyo (12:13)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm mm.

Maeve Webster (12:32)
Their pancakes. They were, by the way, fluffy as hell pancakes. So they were. It wasn't a book, actually. It was, and I hate to say this because I know I'm gonna get grief from many quarters. but it was actually a woman I found on or I saw on Instagram who entered into my algorithm. And she, when I followed her, she immediately sent links to a couple of recipes that she's had. And one of these was were angel cakes. I need to find what her name is.

Mike Kostyo (12:36)
Really? What book is it?

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Hmm. Okay.

Maeve Webster (13:02)
don't remember what her name is. But

⁓ they were great. They were delicious.

I know I will post about them, but they were super fluffy. Brian commented on it too. Like fluffy, but a little like dense enough that they were toothsome. You know what I mean? Not like airy fluffy. ⁓ boy, they were they were very good.

Mike Kostyo (13:07)
⁓ Yeah.

Mm, yeah. Yeah. huh.

Anything like sp special about the process of meat? Was it like egg whites or anything like that to make fluffier?

Maeve Webster (13:27)
No, no, no. I think it was the combination

of baking powder and buttermilk that ⁓ created more of a leavening ⁓ than anything else. I think that was really it. ⁓ there wasn't anything else extraordinary about the recipe as I think about it. ⁓ but boy, it worked.

Mike Kostyo (13:33)
Mm mm mm mm

Hmm hmm.

Mm. Mm.

Huh. I made pancakes too. I made them. I did I do sourdough every week. So you have all the sourdough discard. And there's a book I actually got at one of the conferences you and I went to that's the sweet side of sourdough. I think she's an English baker. It's a phenomenal book. And there's a million recipes for sourdough discard pancakes out there. But she was like, I found the best one. And they weren't, they were very delicious. But you do have to separate the eggs and whip the egg whites.

Maeve Webster (13:50)
Mm.

Mike Kostyo (14:11)
And I just hate that. I I d I do not want to do that on a Sunday morning. So ⁓ so they were good, but I probably won't make them again. Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (14:17)
You know what? ⁓

I see now I'm definitely more of a baker. Like I

lean far more toward the baking than necessarily savory cooking. So that whole process, like the science side of baking and the whipping and all that, I do get very into it. One of my favorite waffle recipes, and I'm not doing it ⁓ part of the the challenge because I've made them before, is a King Arthur I can't.

Mike Kostyo (14:32)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Is it the one with the

the almond flour in it? ⁓ The almond flour King Arthur recipe is the only waffle recipe I'll ever make. It's my favorite. Yeah. Phenomenal. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll make yours. Yeah. Okay.

Maeve Webster (14:47)
No, I don't so.

really? Ooh. Well, maybe I will make those because I have not made them. Yeah, I'll find that recipe, but it

is, it's a separated egg yolk waffle recipe. I want to say that they were called like crispiest waffles or something like that. And let me tell you, those waffles are so shatteringly crispy on the outside and fluffy on the inside. Ugh yeah. I've I've made them several times.

Mike Kostyo (15:02)
Mm.

⁓

And for waffles.

for waffles I'd do 'cause waffles are like a special pancakes I feel like I make all the time. my favorite pancake recipe of all time is smitten kitchens, like double I forget the name of it. It's like double height pancakes or something. It is the thickest pancake batter you've ever worked with, but because of that, they stay so like huge and fluffy. I love them so much, they're amazing.

Maeve Webster (15:29)
Ooh.

Mike Kostyo (15:39)
I I did for one year. I would tried a new pancake recipe every single time I made p pancakes. So I tried like thirty pancake recipes and that was my favorite at the end of it. Mm mm.

Maeve Webster (15:39)
Mm-hmm.

So in the challenge so far, not last year or last time you did it this year, what has been your least favorite recipe and why?

Mike Kostyo (15:51)
Mm-hmm.

⁓ and so I actually I r give them all a score and I write them all down here so I can tell you. I will say that ⁓ my favorite book, I don't know, Discovery is not the right cause you discovered it. But I think my favorite book of the whole challenge so far has been that I always get the title wrong. It's like Fig Snow L Yeah. Yeah. What's her name? Sugar sh yeah. Something along those lines. If you ⁓

Maeve Webster (16:16)
roasted fig something snow. ⁓ yeah. Sugar snow. Roasted fig, sugar snow, maybe?

Mike Kostyo (16:27)
If you look up something like that, it's the only cookbook I'm sure that will come up. What's her name? The woman that wrote it? Diana Henry. ⁓ but that book. Just love that book so much. Like I don't know if you have a favorite.

Maeve Webster (16:30)
Probably come up. Yeah. Ugh I don't know. Yes, yes. Mm-hmm.

so far no I don't have a favorite I although no, I don't think I've got a favorite book. I can tell you which recipe I did not like.

Mike Kostyo (16:46)
Okay, yeah.

Ooh, yes, say.

Maeve Webster (16:51)
it was surprisingly a New York Times ⁓ cooking recipe, and usually they are pretty reliable. But this one was a kale sauce, not pesto, but kale sauce pasta. And I had a lot of extra kale. so I figured this is the perfect thing. And I like kale and I like kale pesto and all the like all the things. This did not work out. It was not. I don't even know. I I can't put my like I

Mike Kostyo (16:53)
Mm.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Hmm hmm.

Maeve Webster (17:17)
the the seasoning of the sauce was off. This was definitely one that to your point earlier, I should have used my gut and added more stuff to it because when it was all pulled together, it wasn't bad. It just wasn't, you know, it was like meh, yeah.

Mike Kostyo (17:21)
Mm mm.

Mm. ⁓

Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't think there's anything I made that was actively bad. I mean, I don't think yeah, looking at this, there's nothing that I've scored less than like a a six on a scale of one through ten. The lowest ones I've scored are so the chicken ramen soup is actually the very first recipe I did for this challenge. And it comes out of America's Test Kitchens Cook It in Your Dutch Oven, which I I've

Maeve Webster (17:45)
Hmm. ⁓

Mike Kostyo (17:57)
their recipes so rare so maybe it was user area error, but their recipes so rarely don't turn out. But I don't know. I find this in general like there's just too many recipes that don't make enough sauce or broth and this was one. It's supposed to be a ramen and it was like all noodles and like almost no broth whatsoever. So and then the other one and I don't remember why and I said I love the pancake recipe from Spint Kitchen.

Maeve Webster (18:12)
Yeah.

mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mike Kostyo (18:24)
But the brown butter mashed potatoes from Smitton Kitchen were my least favorite recipe. I give it a six point seven. And yeah, I don't even remember why I disliked it. Again, maybe it could have been user error. Who knows? Mm mm. Yeah. Yeah.

Maeve Webster (18:37)
Hm, interesting. Cement

in Kitchen is usually pretty reliable. Yeah.

Mike Kostyo (18:40)
Yeah, yeah. We

⁓ we did I used to be in a cookbook club where we all cook together from a cookbook once and one and the cookbook club loves her. Like I like her, but they're like rabid for her. And ⁓ I did her cinnamon raisin bagels and it came so close to breaking my kitchen aid and then I looked at the reviews online and everybody said this at multiple people did break their kitchen aid. And so that is one that I don't recommend.

is that. But her the friend of mine in the group the lentil sausage stew that she has is one of the greatest soups of all time. It is absolutely phenomenal. Yeah. So come. Mm.

Maeve Webster (19:13)
Hmm.

two comments on that. One,

as we talk about paring down our our belongings, ⁓ I am very tempted, so tempted to buy the I'm gonna get this brand wrong, the Anscarum. Is it Anscarum?

Mike Kostyo (19:23)
Yeah. Uh-huh.

⁓ yes. I don't know how you say it either. It that probably could have yeah, worked the dough. Yes, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know you've been one of one, yes, yeah. ⁓ huh. ⁓

Maeve Webster (19:34)
Yeah.

Yeah, I'm so tempted. I know I don't need it. I don't need it. I don't need it. This is not about need. ⁓ but I'm so tempted. I'm so tempted by that thing. I know, I know. ⁓ and then the other

as we talk about sources, especially online sources, you know, Love and Lemons actually, I do like that blog. They they've I've made a few recipes from that. I can't remember who that is, but that's been pretty, pretty reliable.

Mike Kostyo (19:56)
Mm mm mm agreed. Mm-hmm. Mm.

Mm.

You know who else is doing a great job? So I also cut out ⁓ just recipes and put them in a binder from magazines. Food and wine. I like they're very I did last night actually, they did a skirt steak salt and boca. It took me 20 minutes. It was absolutely fantastic. It had enough sauce with it. I did it with asparagus. It's gonna be a new weeknight rotation favorite for me. Absolutely delicious. I think they just do clever, interesting takes on recipes.

Maeve Webster (20:17)
Yeah.

Hmm. Interesting.

Mike Kostyo (20:31)
That are very doable. so they've been doing a great job.

Maeve Webster (20:35)
Yeah, I just actually took a pic bunch of pictures of recipes in the most recent sports issue of food and wine.

Mike Kostyo (20:40)
I know I

saw that cover. I was like, great. No. ⁓ okay. Well, that's fine then. Yeah. Yeah. huh. well we'll have to check in at the end of the year and see when we're done with our full 100 recipes.

Maeve Webster (20:44)
Happily there were a lot of cocktails that you can drink while watching sports. So I was like, well that's my my that's right up my alley.

Yes, I think that's a great idea.

I will see if I can't crank out a few more ⁓ before we move.

Mike Kostyo (21:17)
All right. Well, ooh, you're ready to go. You have your pocket guide to the national restaurant show. well, so I would love to welcome our guest for this month's you have everything. I went the podcast is not a video podcast except for clips from it. And so nobody can see the fact that you're holding up all the your badge from the show, but it's a good preview of what we're about to talk about, which is the National Restaurant Association show. But before we do that, I'll pass it over to you to introduce yourself.

Maeve Webster (21:21)
You

Mike Kostyo (21:46)
And what you do and what attribute analytics is.

Beth Kimmerle (21:50)
Thank you for having me on the show, first of all. Second of all, great topic, because yes, we were recently at the National Restaurant Show. I am Beth Kimmerly. I am the founder and CEO of Attribute Analytics. And what we do is we help food companies understand cravability through sensory science. and we do that by translating taste and texture and aroma and emotion into actionable data.

For innovation of new food products.

Mike Kostyo (22:19)
Mm-hmm. So what does that mean? Like if a client comes to you, just to kind of set the foundation for the conversation we're about to have, if a client comes to you, let's say a manufacturer with ⁓ a new product that they want to release or ⁓ you know, they wanna change up a product that they already have as part of their product line, what is it that you do for them in particular? What does the process look like?

Beth Kimmerle (22:25)
Yeah.

Thanks for asking that question because it's pretty unique. We take descriptive analysis, which is a part of sensory science or a tool in the toolbox of sensory science, and we have trained panels. So descriptive analysis is a way of analyzing food products using a lexicon or a descriptive lexicon or terminology. So we are train tasters.

⁓ and in layman's terms, what sommeys are for wine, we are for food. We've all been trained, many of us come from the food industry, and we work for attribute analytics to assess, like I said, aroma, texture, taste, obviously hugely important, but aftertastes, ⁓ things like mouthfeel. and and the reason we do it for or how we do it for

companies is not only using our internal trained taste panels, but we could we could do it for a variety of products and even whole categories and gain insights, right? We blend our data, our taste data, with sales data to find insights about what's performing and why and potentially what's even underperforming. So companies can come to us with a new recipe.

And see if it's benchmarked against the top-selling products, right? That's one use case. companies oftentimes come to us and say, hey, we want you to help us reverse engineer this top selling product or reverse engineer something that we found in the food service channel for the CBG channel. So there's all sorts of different use cases. ⁓ we work a lot with companies that are producing.

what we call alternatives, right? And that could be a a one-for-one alternative. It could be something they got mandated that they can't use artificial dyes anymore. And they want to make sure that their products that have been that have tasted the same for years and years continue to taste the same with a new dye. tolerant as as they would say in the in the food side. So there's all sorts of different use cases. We lean heavily on our train tasters.

Mike Kostyo (24:43)
Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (24:51)
⁓ and when we talk about descriptive analysis, we have a real standardized way of collecting this this ⁓ information, this analysis, so it turns into data for for food companies.

Mike Kostyo (25:02)
And I feel like one of the questions we will get asked after if we don't ask it is how do you become a trained taster? What does that ⁓ that training look like?

Beth Kimmerle (25:09)
How much?

⁓ thank you for asking that question. Because because the training well, first of all, we have a set of criteria before we even consider somebody as a panelist. most of our panel members come from the food industry. That's that's number one. And why is that? Well, because in the food industry there are a lot of people who are

Mike Kostyo (25:14)
Ha ha ha.

Beth Kimmerle (25:34)
Who are trained in sensory evaluation, right? They might be trained in dairy products, they might be trained in wine, they might be trained in coffee, but they're trained. And those trained panelists oftentimes find us, right? ⁓ and we find them because a a lot of what folks want to do is continue their training, right? Think about it as a practice like yoga or even learning a language. If you don't

continue to practice it, you get rusty, right? so we have a whole network of of panelists that we've trained that oftentimes come to us with some of their own language and a real desire to keep sharp at it. the other thing that's really important for us is that people can speak objectively and that sounds kind of weird ⁓ but in this day and age a lot of

us and I'm ⁓ we're all we're all guilty of it, are trained to like and dislike things, right? It's like that's the language we speak. We s you know s swipe online, we thumbs up on LinkedIn, whatever it takes, we're constantly in that mode of liking or disliking or thumbs upping and not and we can't do that as trained tasters. We're just in evaluation mode. And when I say ⁓ I say that we just are tr we're

Mike Kostyo (26:32)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (26:55)
Constantly training ourselves to speak objectively, lur not only learning the language or the lexicon around flavor for a ⁓ and texture and aftertaste for a specific category. but again, constantly adding to new lexicon terms, because if you think about it, I mean, even in the past ten, you know, in the past ten years, there's been a fifth flavor, you know, basic

Fifth basic taste added added to the basic taste list, we're constantly learning and we do that by tasting. And we do that by sp again, speaking objectively, so we can use this information as data.

Mike Kostyo (27:35)
It's interesting you say that because Mave and I do a lot of immersion tours across the country where we're taking chefs or we're taking RD professionals at a company into a market and going to restaurants in order to find out what's happening and be inspired by it. And the thing that we often see is everybody reverts back to I liked it or I didn't like it. Yep, I hated this dish or and it's not about that at all. If anything, a lot of times we say you can learn more from the experiences that

Maybe subjectively you didn't necessarily like and you didn't think we're successful, but there's more to dive into. Okay, what would you do? Well, how would you change it? Why wasn't it successful? So we see that all the time, that falling back on this idea of just like, I like it or I don't like it.

Maeve Webster (28:13)
Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (28:19)
It's really hard not to. It's really hard as as humans, I think it's sort of how we're built, right? Because if you think about how tastes work, these basic tastes are you know, we have access to these basic tastes for evolutionary reason. And so there is this there is this way though that we can train ourselves and ⁓ and our tasters to taste objectively, right? We don't

Mike Kostyo (28:21)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (28:46)
And and and but it's we have to be vigilant with it. We can't ⁓ we have to taste blind, right? We don't ever want to see something coming out of a package or associated with a brand or marketing information because that's that doesn't give us great I mean automatically you get y you get the wrong frame of reference. ⁓ so we taste blind, we we taste in a very specific way, appearance, aroma, flavor, texture.

aftertaste and we do that in a really you know specific and standardized way so that we can get specific and standardized results. So if you can even imagine and I can't wait for you guys to join a panel because I think you would love it. We really are just we're we're we're training. It's again it's con it's a little bit like slow food meets yoga means learning a language. because you have to you have to

Mike Kostyo (29:26)
Yes, we would love it.

Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (29:43)
constantly remind yourself to slow down, right? You're not there, these panelists aren't there to to to eat, right? They're using their spit cups. We we have standardized this this practice. But but there's some people who just they have to fall they can't do it. I mean they really they just can't do it. ⁓ we used to talk we used to talk a lot about the golden tongue.

Mike Kostyo (29:52)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (30:05)
Mm.

Beth Kimmerle (30:09)
And you know like you've been to dinners with the person who's like the goal, you know, the gold the golden tongue and they and we're all laughing. I'm sure I'm sure that's a good a good crowd pleaser for the for the entire pod podcast. All listeners of the podcast. But but ⁓ you can't have that either on a on a trained panel because because you really need to get the input from a group of

Mike Kostyo (30:12)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (30:34)
people because everybody tastes a little bit differently. Like we all have different palettes, right? ⁓ but you can't you also can't have you can't have somebody who's bitter blind on your palate when you're on your panel when you're tasting, you know, coffee or wine. And you so you so there's this constant vigil I call it vigilance. and it's really governance, right? Because it's a it's about making sure your your your panels always calibrated, that that

that one person who was kind of the shy ball flower doesn't become the golden tongue, you know, because people it's like it is like having a superpower in a way. Right. And and and and Mayve Maeve's gonna ask a question, but it's it's kind of and you have to you have to you have to keep the panel well oiled. It's like a machine. You have to keep them well oiled as individuals and then also a unit. And then you also have to watch for you know ish

Mike Kostyo (31:08)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Ha ha.

Beth Kimmerle (31:26)
issues not only like psychological issues but also somebody could start taking a medication and and their taste could go down. Or or they could have, you know, long COVID and they can't smell anymore. So there's all s it's it's from a from a psychological standpoint it's fascinating to watch.

Maeve Webster (31:45)
This is also kind of interesting because like Mike was saying with the immersions, right? Most of the immersions, well, all actually of the immersions we've been on have largely been restaurant chefs, right? And innovation for the food service. And so many restaurants, less so the larger restaurant you get, but even there, the menus are dictated by the preferences and the perceptions of a chef or a small team of chefs. Whereas

Mike Kostyo (31:52)
Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (32:12)
what you're talking about with retail, it's much, much different. It's a brand and a brand identity that needs to be utterly consistent, regardless of who is in or not in their R &D and culinary departments. So it's interesting when you think about that difference in the rigor that a retail product needs to go through, not that there isn't a rigor for a national account chain, but it's so much different because I think it is very chef.

personality, chef preference, chef perception driven in food service.

Beth Kimmerle (32:48)
a a hundred percent. And you're like, you're getting you're getting into something that's really interesting, which is it's really hard to train chefs in sensory evaluation. And and Mike's nodding his head saying like I I get it and and that's because there's a lot of understand a lot of instinct and a lot of a lot of you know, knowledge that comes with that experience, right?

And the really of the release of the sensory part of it is sort of like releasing the magic of the per of the personality in a way. When I so when I was talking about, you know, the the the fact that what we're building in a in a panelist or a in a or a panel really almost becomes in a way a s a s a sixth sense, right? It becomes its own thing.

Chefs you're right, they're personality driven, their preference, their style, right? Their style, their plating so everything about that it comes from the one person. to to get delivered not just the one person, because obviously there's a ⁓ typically a team of of of chefs, but ⁓ on the on the CPG side, the the we we are the proxy for the consumer, really is what we are, if you think about it. So

You know, we try to decode on behalf of the consumer if they are, like Mae was saying, seeing any or if they would see any changes in consistency or quality. Because if that brand releases a product and they need to make that change in a colorant, in a chocolate, in a peanut, whatever it is, and they release that product, and the consumer gets it, and it's different, and it's a brand that's

50, 75, 100, 10 years old, doesn't matter. and that consumer tastes it and they they understand that it tastes different. They might not know how to articulate it, but it might have a different smell or a different taste. They're gonna throw that in the garbage along with that brand. And that's the that's the po that's the power on the C PG side because a lot of CPG companies come to us when unfortunately they've s they've seen a decline in sales, right? Because or they

Mike Kostyo (35:01)
Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (35:03)
Or the the the phone's ringing off ⁓ the hook or there's a Reddit thread on did they change X and X product? Because it's different. Consumers are really smart. I mean, if they're loyal to your brand, they want it to be the same every single time, right? Chefs have a little bit more of a window and there's seas you know, there's seasonality, there's this, there's that, or or the other thing. So they have a little bit more leeway in how they can deliver their product, but it's kind of the

Mike Kostyo (35:10)
Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (35:31)
It's kind of the same thing. I can only imagine you go to the French laundry and you get that dish that you love, it's imprinted in your memory. And if you go back there, you know, the next year for your anniversary wanting the same dish and it's either off the menu or or it's changed because of, you know, there's a new vendor or new farmer fill in the blank, customers don't like that.

They they want and they remember. They want things the same. And that's frustrating to chefs who are like, my God, I want to change this new. I want to try something new. So that's like the flip side of having the personality kind of chef driven approach. ⁓ but again, we've had chefs on our panel and they're oftentimes really fascinated with the process. They're like, my god, this is a thing. This is so cool. but they're

Mike Kostyo (36:15)
Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (36:21)
It's a d i it they it's ⁓ it it's they come at it from a different different perspective and they are oftentimes the golden tongues.

Mike Kostyo (36:31)
Mm-hmm. Yes, yeah. Very ego driven. Yes, yeah. When before we get into the the yes, yes, yeah. Before we get into the the restaurant show, you actually touched on something I wanted to ask you about, which is something that we've been seeing over and over, which is those consumers who are saying things don't taste like they used to. This product doesn't have the same taste that it had when I was growing up. And this is part of the yes, yeah.

Beth Kimmerle (36:33)
Because because they know. They they they know. They can't make this lip.

Maeve Webster (36:58)
Or the textures off or the colors off or, you

Mike Kostyo (37:01)
And part of it is, you know, we talk about this all the time, this kind of distrust of the food industry overall. They think we're, you know, in back rooms making horrible foods but how much is it these companies coming to you and saying that we are hearing this? We are hearing from our consumer base that they thought it tasted, you know, like one thing that they remember growing up and and they're saying it doesn't taste the same. How much is that like taste creep?

You know, okay, we're gonna make a little tweak here and a little tweak there and soon over ten years it doesn't taste anything like that. How much is it, putting in there some less expensive ingredients? I mean, how prevalent is it from your perspective in the industry?

Maeve Webster (37:40)
Or even have there been companies that haven't made any changes at all, already consumers are saying that it tastes different and you need to figure out why there may be that perception of difference, even if the formulas haven't changed.

Mike Kostyo (37:44)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (37:54)
I mean, there's a million different things I I I can say. I have been in the food industry developing food products and in and around food de product development and innovation and sensory evaluation for thirty something years. Change is inevitable. It's inevitable. what we h help do is make it not perceivable, right?

The other thing that is changed, so from an ingredient standpoint, we are now in an era, when I started we we could we had it wasn't twenty-four months, it wasn't thirty-six months, you released a product when it was ready, when it met the criteria that you that that you set out for it.

And that could be the taste criteria, ⁓ you know, consumer light, the consumer likability, and you know, could do a consumer study. But we didn't we weren't under the pressure that innovate that food innovation is under today. And why is food innovation under pressure? It's not just pressure to innovate, it's not just coming from consumers, it's because we need to change. And so ingredients are.

more expensive, not only for consumers, but for food companies. ingredients that we know and love from chocolate to vanilla to coffee are unsustainable. So we can talk about taste creep, right? But we on our side, on the CPG side, we oftentimes look at products over time, right? So

If you think about what we do, we not only assess food products, we're fingerprinting food products, right? So we have we have a large nationally global branded sandwich cookie from before COVID and after COVID. So we have that data that we can look at. So we can actually have we have data around is this product really changing? Because the ingredient deck didn't change, but what what a what about this tea scrape?

And we call we call it on our side, you know, pretty soon some of these products are gonna be the the the tea bag with no tea in it.

Mike Kostyo (40:08)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (40:10)
Right. That's how much they've changed.

And and and the why behind why like the now let's talk about the the why behind why they have to change. Again. the supply side, the ingredient side, the packaging, everything has changed so rapidly. Think about think about I like I remember a time when a Hershey bar

was in foil and in a piece of paper and that was actually part of the experience and the flavor of of a product, right? That packaging. So so much has changed in the last twenty, thirty years. I'm dating myself. ⁓ but but so you're talking about taste creep, you're talking about so many things happening all at the same time. and so yeah, products have changed. again interest interesting to see

Mike Kostyo (40:46)
Ha ha ha.

Beth Kimmerle (40:57)
what of that is like l legend and what of that is is truth. because the ingredient deck doesn't account for everything. And and and you can have, you know, a a a couple you can swap out a couple of in in ingredients and they can have enormo it can have enormous impact, not only on taste, but on texture. And texture's the one texture is really interesting because it's underrated.

Mike Kostyo (41:00)
Mm, mm, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (41:24)
And a lot

of company a lot of companies just think about taste, taste, taste. And they the mantra is taste is king, taste is king, taste is king, and they forget all about texture. And that that's one of those like things that I that I think, my gosh, if you miss on texture, it's over. It's over. So I know I just laid a lot on that on that one question, but that question was loaded, Maeve, because I

Mike Kostyo (41:29)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Beth Kimmerle (41:52)
I do think change is inevitable. I think there's ways of going about change. And for most of the brands, I would caution, take it slow. Take it take it slow. we all know that you know some of these ingredients are at an all-time high, but if you lose your customer base, then what? Then what do you have? You don't you don't have a brand anymore. and then on the flip side of that is that

Mike Kostyo (42:14)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (42:20)
Consumers are demanding. They're incredibly demanding. It's like they want that thing that they saw on Instagram yesterday, you on a on a on a menu or in a box tomorrow, right? They so and so you have this like you have this you have this push and pull that's that's that's happening. and I think it has made me really appreciate

the slow food movement even even more so 'cause I just look I look around and I'm like, we don't need d like do we really need another pink purple pony thing? Is that you know so like do

Mike Kostyo (42:50)
Mm-hmm.

Ha ha ha.

Maeve Webster (43:01)
You're asking the wrong

girl, I'm Gen X, and my answer would be no. My answer would be solidly no, we do not.

Mike Kostyo (43:02)
Yeah.

Beth Kimmerle (43:07)
I I I think I think I think that's where some of that's where your company and attribute analytics are are as we're getting more data on trends, we're able to see really which trends are the ones to ride and which ones aren't. And I think that that's fascinating, right? 'Cause more more data, more information also can work for

you know, work for you as a as a company for sure. but I just like I look at this sensory ⁓ let's call it maximalism that's out there right now, right? And it feels so performative. I'm like, wait, people, bigger isn't always more cravable. You know, because I still I still think consumers want balance and clarity in what what what they're eating. If if it's if it's too many things mashed into

Mike Kostyo (43:43)
Mm.

Yeah.

Ha ha.

Beth Kimmerle (44:02)
To one, it's o it's over.

Mike Kostyo (44:05)
Mm-hmm. No, no, no, yeah.

Maeve Webster (44:06)
It's interesting, actually, you were talking about, sorry, Mike, you were talking about

data, right? And you're absolutely right. We've got 10 times more data now than we had even 10 years ago, let alone when I first started in the industry. And we've got this pressure to put products out faster and faster and faster because the trend cycle is moving more quickly. But I was just talking with somebody earlier today and there's this tension.

Right? Because I think you're getting a lot more analysis paralysis now. One, because of how much data we've got. It's so much data that it's hard to parse through and find out what that data is actually telling you. Plus there's so much uncertainty that most people don't want to enter in understandably into an R &D process when you have no idea what's going to happen six months out, let alone two years out. And we are surrounded by uncertainty.

and upset and just crisis upon crisis globally, domestically, et cetera. So it is an interesting duality now, the pressure and the rush to drive things to market coupled with the anxiety and the hesitancy to do anything or make any big decisions because there's absolutely zero certainty for the short or long-term future.

Beth Kimmerle (45:28)
I I couldn't agree with you more on on all of that. I think I think we have from a from a data perspective, agreed, more data than ever. I think the companies that I work with, there's a lot of people who are you know, people wanna do the right thing, right? They wanna they wanna do the right thing. but I agree with that paralysis as well. We're, you know, we

you can subscribe to every data service, every did this, that and the other thing, but it's not gonna yeah, it's not gonna lead you down the path and you still have to make some assumptions, right? You still have to look a l into a crystal ball and nobody can do that. That's what you're saying. I mean it's like there is so there is that cr that

Maeve Webster (46:03)
Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (46:12)
crystal ball piece that used to be kind of fun and we go, I wonder why this is gonna stick around. Now it's scary to look into that crystal ball because you don't know. Right. And so I I totally agree. It's like there there's really

Mike Kostyo (46:19)
Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (46:27)
I I think it's encouraging more restraint. That that's all that's all I'm gonna gonna say. When all the stuff when all the data competes for attention, right? 'Cause that's what w w when all the when it and all synthetic data and data scrape data and data data data is everywhere. I think it's really I I think it's really forcing companies and

Mike Kostyo (46:32)
Hmm, hmm hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (46:53)
what whatever side of the f the the the food world they're on ⁓ to really show restraint and understand like data quality better. It's almost like, you know, if you think about an input in at a on the restaurant side, an input being your dairy provider, right? You want to understand that that those products really well. And I think more and more companies that we're working with understand data.

Mike Kostyo (47:03)
Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (47:21)
better better and better, but also are showing restraint as a res as a result because they're they're like, wait, yeah, we're we're not gonna we're not gonna let this data push us into a direction that's that's wrong. We're just gonna we're gonna take the wait and see approach.

Mike Kostyo (47:36)
When speaking of seeking out more data and stimuli and what's happening in the industry, I want to make sure that we talk about so if you don't work in the food industry, two weekends ago was the National Restaurant Association show here in Chicago, which is the massive food service show. So if you work in the restaurant industry in any capacity, it's here, it takes over the entire convention center. It's everything from equipment to tableware to ingredients.

And so from your perspective, when you're walking the show floor, what are you looking for from a sensory perspective? And was there anything that really stood out to you as exciting or fresh or novel or just something that, you know, you wish more people would pay attention to from a sensory aspect?

Beth Kimmerle (48:22)
well first of all I I really love the show because it's it's it's widely ⁓ agreed in an industry that doesn't agree on a lot most of the time, that trends come from food service slash restaurant. We used to call it like trends come from the street, right? And then they the and then they they make it at some point to CPG products. So for me the restaurant show is like the trend the trend scouting.

place to be. and this year, I think you and I talked about this at one point. This year was super interesting because, you know, I go through that show and I try to try to figure out what are the over you know, what are what are some of the like overarching trends. and I and I

And I do look at equipment. I don't just you you don't just look at food because if it's a trend in equipment, you know, if there's a trend on the equipment side, the food side's gonna follow or already be, you know, hitting at some point. And I so I really I love the equipment piece of it. because it s it it sings in a different way to me, you know, and and I think

Mike Kostyo (49:31)
One that often

Maeve Webster (49:31)
Yes.

Mike Kostyo (49:32)
has

a big impact on the sensory experience, right? The equipment itself. Yeah. Yeah.

Maeve Webster (49:35)
sure, has to. ⁓

Beth Kimmerle (49:36)
A hundred percent. And so a lot of the equipment, it was interesting to he even see how they were marketing some equipment. And so ⁓ the overarching theme for me was that and or what I was drawn, let's just say what I was drawn to were these products and equipment where they were talking about texture strategically. It was fascinating because you're, you know, pe pe pe pe people used to

Mike Kostyo (49:38)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (50:04)
Throw around flavor, we've talked about this, you know, a bunch, but you know, taste is king and flavor, flavor this. But now texture's like this strategic lever, let's call it. so I saw a lot of equipment companies and food companies talking about contrast and crunch, stretch, temperature.

it was really interesting to to see the marketing on texture in a way that I that I had never seen before. Or maybe I'm just noticing, who knows? But I think what I think my my overarching takeaway was like, wait, finally people are realizing that texture is is becoming as important as flavor or is as important as flavor and that these comfort foods are becoming

not only globally layered and you know but they're they're they're really you can emotionally engineer them through texture. Right? So you can create this layered experience through texture. And I think that's again becoming this lever on all sides of food where and we we can articulate it differently too, right? We can texture can become a differentiator. ⁓ so so I

I took I took that away as like my like my gosh. People are finally like it's finally hit home that texture is important and and that texture is you can communicate about it. It's not like a scare you know, it's not a scary thing and it's not all about crunch. and you can design equipment and food products to deliver on texture and have it be a totally d new experience for your

Mike Kostyo (51:45)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's so interesting you say that because so many of the conversations that you have on the show floor are about the sensory experience when it comes to whether something is successful or not. But I don't think, we think about it that often. So I'm thinking of the number of times where we'll have an ice cream or a gelato, and the very first thing we say is, it's so creamy. Like you guys do, you know, hit it spot on because it's so creamy. Or I remember, you know, the any of the French fries or anything.

Beth Kimmerle (51:45)
For your customer.

Mike Kostyo (52:13)
crispy. You got that crispy, French fry. That's what like that is the measure of success so often. And it's the number one thing that you say immediately to somebody. so often we know the chefs on the show floor and we'll be like, you hit it because of the texture. It's not even the first thing we're talking about is the flavor or the the ingredients. Yeah.

Beth Kimmerle (52:30)
That's right.

That's right. I think I you know, I think I I got really excited after the show because I started imagining a texture wheel just like we would see a flavor wheel because I think the sk one of the scariest things about texture is that people might not know the terminology. And it's different depending on the on the co you know, when we t when we talk about red and cell structure and

Mike Kostyo (52:50)
Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (52:58)
crumb and crust and all these like these are these are all different terms, but like, you know, tet textures becoming a thing. People want to learn. They wanna they wanna they wanna learn. And then how does creamy work when creamy is both a texture and a and a flavor? How what does that look like? So one of the things we've been talking about at Attribute Analytics is how do we open up our lexicon and do we open up our lexicon and have it become like wiki style? So that not only are we

Mike Kostyo (53:05)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Beth Kimmerle (53:21)
Are we g cuz i if you think about a la any language, it's it's living, right? It's a it it's a living thing. And so is it a is it the kind of thing where we can democratize taste and texture and get put it out into the world and have people feed it back, you know, people from different sides of the industry and people from different different categories, if you will, and have have people learn not only learn from it but have

in return the the language become more refined. ⁓ because because you're you're right. It's we go to it and we use it. but I think just like flavor, we could stand to re release it and and and get a lot of feedback back. How we evaluate ice cream is totally different than how we'd evaluate

Mike Kostyo (53:51)
Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (54:10)
a hot beverage or you know, fill in the blanket. Like you just taught you just talked about creaminess of of gelato, but there's, you know, the texture of is it fluffy or is it dense? Right? Is it glossy or is it matte? What temperature are you serving at? There's so much that goes into texture of ice cream. So we talk a lot about how do we how do we get that out into the world and have people have people weigh in so they can feel confident talking about it in the same way that they would flavor.

And I think I think one of the things that you're getting is that people don't remember flavor or texture in isolation. They also are remembering a moment. They're remembering a trade show. They're remembering a chef, a nostalgia, a comfort, I d you know, what whatever, whatever so so one of the things that we're tr really trying to understand too is

Maeve Webster (54:40)
it.

Thank

Beth Kimmerle (55:06)
How does when taste and texture line up, what's the emotional

hidden ingredient in that. Right? Because and if it doesn't, what's the you know, what's what's the emotional hidden ingredient in that? ⁓ but because because that's such a huge part of consuming any anything. And and and and how we assess creepability. And that's kind of the har that's like we're ⁓ I'm imagining we're all gonna be wearing trackers soon. Like a it's gonna be like a instead of an Apple Watch or maybe it's an app for the Apple Watch, it's like, you know, did I did

Mike Kostyo (55:16)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (55:18)
it.

Mike Kostyo (55:22)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (55:44)
ha did I really need that piece of candy? Did I really enjoy it? What was that what was that piece? Because I think in you know, in in some ways, we that's like the mi that's the missing piece for for everybody. It's like, in what need state did somebody really ⁓ consume that, right?

Mike Kostyo (55:47)
Yeah.

Maeve Webster (55:49)
Okay.

Mike Kostyo (55:57)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Well, and I love that idea of opening up the lexicon too. Cause so, in some of the research that Maven and I did around sensory experiences, one of the interesting that things that came up over and over was you have a generation that's growing up and they are consuming, for lack of a better word, food through social media. And so the way that you discover what that sensory experience is like is through somebody talking about it. And so they're talking about

the thing that we always heard when you watched the Food Network growing up. I wish you were here. I wish you could smell this right now. ASMR is a really great example of this. And so you have a generation that's growing up talking about food and sensor experiences in new ways. mean, I was even thinking about as you were talking about, you know, expanding the lexicon, how Gen Z and Gen Alpha uses terminology like a restaurant.

is pure vibes or is aesthetic or so there is going to be new terminology or using terms in new ways around food that we've never even considered I'm sure it's already you know I'm sure Gen Z talks about candy in ways that I have no idea what the heck that they're talking about. But that's valid, right?

Beth Kimmerle (57:11)
Yeah, you t totally and you're ta you're so one of the things that's really fascinating to us is kind of under leveraged senses. And and and one of the things that I think is really underleveraged that is becoming at more and more important because of just what you're talking about, ASMR, is sound because

Mike Kostyo (57:22)
Mm.

Beth Kimmerle (57:35)
I think we underestimate we have underestimated. I think people are looking at it in with fresh eyes, but how much crunch and sizzle or even like packaging acoustics shape our perception before aroma and tasting, you know, even begin. And and so and I think that has to do with videos, I think that has to do with so

with with with just what you're talking about this like before anybody tastes anything they're they're they're watching a video of how it's made or they're watching a description of it. And so in that same way we can open up the dictionary of texture terms. I think sound I think the sound of food

Cooking being unleashed from a package is fascinating. We just as a teen watched this ⁓ anas a video about anosmia, which is the inability to smell. some people, for some people it's genetic, for some people they've ⁓ de you know have had damage to their frontal cortex. and so they have to lean on other senses.

⁓ more so than they because they can smell, right? They d they have no sense of smell. And and and a lot of people came out of COVID with the inability to smell. And so it's really done a very interesting thing to folk senses and they have to they almost have to develop like a a new sense or a sixth sense. Here we go again with the sixth sense, but and and and and are leaning on sound in a different way to tell them is

is something is something fresh. Yeah, because it used to be that you'd pick up the apple and sm and smell it, or you'd pick up the candle and smell it. And now they have to lean you know, they have to almost lean. And so if you've lost your sense of smell, you only have access to basic tastes. So which is it's it's kind of a wild thing. So you can have a bowl of chocolate and strawberry ice cream next to one another. You can see their different colors, but you can only te you only taste sweet, right? Because

Mike Kostyo (59:19)
Mm, mm, mm.

Mm.

Beth Kimmerle (59:44)
Because most of what we do when we taste is is is smell. We're smelling, it's aroma. And so and so these kind of under-leveraged senses are fascinating to us because not only are we seeing these like overarching trends in texture of folks understanding that texture is as important as flavor, but for us, where's the next sense that's gonna get?

Mike Kostyo (59:47)
Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (1:00:01)
Yes.

Beth Kimmerle (1:00:10)
Some play or where the where are the trends in the next sense, and how can you tap into those? Like, think about opening up a bag of potato chips, right? You open up that bag, it's crinkly and you know, kind of very tactile, and you might even have to struggle with it for a second, but that's kind of part of the experience. And then you get in there and you get this crunchy, amazing chip, or you know, whatever whatever you're going for. That's sound. And that's what that is like auditory.

And w it's wild times when it comes to sound right now. so so

Mike Kostyo (1:00:42)
Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (1:00:43)
You know, it's

interesting you should say that about sound, for me, would think that smell is actually one thing that we may very well lose and that can actually create more meaning because texture, sound, obviously any kind of visual can be faked online, either simulated or faked online, right? You can get all of that from AI. Videos of real food can convey

Beth Kimmerle (1:01:09)
Yeah. Yep.

Maeve Webster (1:01:11)
all of that, nothing can convey smell. And as we talk about the impact of AI on the decline in critical thinking in younger people, you have to wonder if their cognitive, I don't know, de-development, undevelopment, declining development ⁓ ends up being impacted in ways that we don't know. And smell can be one of those things that both

Mike Kostyo (1:01:28)
Devolution? Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (1:01:37)
It declines in importance because people can't see it online, but also increases in importance in the meaningfulness of a real, visceral kind of on-site experience because it's the one thing that can't be conveyed so far through any kind of tech.

Beth Kimmerle (1:01:55)
I'm gonna say bingo w a hundred percent. We do not have a way ⁓ to to to fake it, right? Like you most people can understand instantly the difference between artificial vanilla and vanilla. The fake the fake versus the r the the the real, right? We we you you can

Mike Kostyo (1:01:57)
Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (1:02:18)
If you're a Diet Coke drinker, you can put it up against a real Coke and and know the difference just by smelling. Just by just by smelling the product. ⁓ but smell is one of the interesting things. if you if we're not practicing it, do we lose it? And if we lose it, what is it what do what have we become as humans? Because we've lost we've lost a lot of

Maeve Webster (1:02:40)
Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (1:02:44)
We we we lost a safety ⁓ mechanism. I mean, if you can't smell fire and if you can't smell gas, it's it's dang life is dangerous. A lot of people who don't who have an osmia, they don't go out much. But then you think about social media like, you know, heavy social media users, do they go out much? I don't know. I don't know. so I I I think smell we we talk we talk about smell ad nauseum.

And I'm saying that because it's it's it's really the gate it's really the gateway to flavor. It's really the gateway to to to to life. They've done these really interesting tests. ⁓ well they'll give mothers a a range of shirts, one of which is a shirt that their own child wore and let's say ten ten others. And the the mom can literally go through the ten shirts and smell the one that her her

her the evolutionary she needed that, right? She needed to be able to do that. Like where where's my kid? And what's I have a cell phone to call him. What I I got I gotta be able to understand which one of these pac p packs of children are, you know, are my my own. But what's gonna fall off from an evolutionary standpoint and what's gonna get added on? Because if we you know, I I keep again talking about this ⁓ this sixth sense, but if we go down on

Mike Kostyo (1:03:45)
Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (1:04:08)
One, if everything's able to be faked on appearance, then do we g do we do we add on more ability for aroma or glass? I I give ⁓ time will tell, but it's it's super fascinating to us because we don't look at again, we don't look at any of these in isolation because they're not, right? They're also we have also have to consider like where are we?

Maeve Webster (1:04:20)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Kostyo (1:04:21)
Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (1:04:35)
what's happening, what's the context, what's the what's there's so many other things that that that we have to consider when we think about ⁓

our senses and and what's happening aro around us and what's happening with social media is one we think about a lot. in a in a world that things can where if everything can be faked, aroma is one that it's pretty hard to do.

Mike Kostyo (1:05:00)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Maeve Webster (1:05:02)
that idea of aroma being the gateway to taste, completely, obviously, completely agree and that's well documented. But you have to wonder if the visual of food is what's kind of taking the place, right? Because more people are seeing the food and you've got those tests where if you have people taste berries in a room that eliminates the ability to tell the distinct color, that the flavor, suddenly the flavors are all changed, right? And so I wonder if

your point about evolution and given the impact of technology, if our ability to discern smell and have smell impact taste is being replaced by our visual perceptions because of the impact of technology. I mean, it would be pretty fast to have evolution move, you know, create those changes that quickly. But, you know, you don't know because we're consuming more information now than we ever have before. Maybe evolution is speeding up as well.

Mike Kostyo (1:05:51)
Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (1:05:56)
That's right. And you know, is it are that humans are really good at pattern recognition too, and if you just show them the a picture of the thing and tell them it tastes like this, all of a sudden they're like, okay, that's what it t it tastes like. I it i it we there there's there's there's a a whole new

Mike Kostyo (1:06:10)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (1:06:10)
Okay.

Beth Kimmerle (1:06:18)
Everything's getting blown up in sensory science. I'm I I'm just gonna I'm I'm gonna say that. We it was developed a hundred years ago, but partially by the US government because it needed a way to standardize how to evaluate food products, right? They needed a way to come they couldn't have somebody calling a

puril almond and extra large almond in one part of the country versus the another. They needed to standardize the language and they needed to standardize the way in which we evaluate food products. But they started obviously with food products that were around a hundred years ago. And those have changed. And so we've had to evolve sensory science through the years with how products have changed changed. But now we're having to evolve it with how

the marketing of products has changed. And so that's what you're, you know, that's a little bit above what you're talking about because both the food products have changed rapidly over the last, you know, twenty, thirty years, but also the way in which we we talk about them and show them off and market them and all of it. And so man, that is ra that is rapid. There's been I mean, in the cour in the course of the last few years,

Mike Kostyo (1:07:31)
Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (1:07:35)
⁓ so much has happened. I mean, who who thought ⁓ you know, I I looked at ⁓ a trend re this is gonna this is gonna sound really funny, but I looked at a trend report from like ten years ago to try to understand, you know, what was true about it and what wasn't. If you think about ten years ago, right, sixteen before pre COVID and you know, what was on people's minds, not

Mike Kostyo (1:07:45)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (1:08:04)
Nothing in that report was right, but what could have pr who who could have predicted what what would happen with social media and AI and COVID and on and on and on and on. And so it's r it's really interesting that you can even, you know, go go back and go, Okay, we thought that was gonna happen and that didn't happen. So in a way, I don't think we know, Maith. I don't think I mean I think we're you know, we're just boop boop boop but

Mike Kostyo (1:08:10)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (1:08:33)
I think things are either either

either gonna, you know, speed speed up and we're just gonna have to keep pace. ⁓ or we're gonna develop these secret w weapon senses, which is what kind of all happens. Like we all become a little bit super powered out because we do have to you we do have to use a new sense that we didn't we we forgot we had or evolutionary evolutionarily didn't have to use and now all of a sudden we're like, we need that thing.

Mike Kostyo (1:08:45)
Ha ha

Mm.

Hmm. ⁓

Beth Kimmerle (1:09:02)
throw an antenna on her head. I don't know, but it's it really it's really fun. It's super fun to think about

the the cr the crystal ballness of all of it.

Mike Kostyo (1:09:11)
Yes. Well, clearly we could talk to you for hours and hours. But I want to make sure that we get to the five questions. So when we I know we barely did, but that's fine. We'll let the show go where it needs to go. But and we'll do a part two. We'll do a part two. but I want to make sure we get to the five questions. And so we'll do them kind of rapid fire here. So we end every show with these five questions. And the first one is what is your hospitality or food pet peeve?

Beth Kimmerle (1:09:17)
Did we even talk did we even talk about the show? ⁓

Beautiful food with bad texture.

Mike Kostyo (1:09:43)
Mm, mm.

Maeve Webster (1:09:45)
Good one.

Mike Kostyo (1:09:46)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (1:09:46)
I I mean what else can I say? You know

what it's plated beautifully and it looks like just a a a stunning made for Instagram setup, like everything's placed beautifully, you they busted out the tweezers and then and then and then you bite into something, you're like, No. I don't think so. I don't I I don't actually nail it.

Mike Kostyo (1:10:01)
Yeah, yes. Totally

agree.

Beth Kimmerle (1:10:13)
But did they build but did they build it for social media?

Maeve Webster (1:10:14)
Thank

Mike Kostyo (1:10:16)
Yeah, probably these days. Yeah,

Maeve Webster (1:10:17)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Kostyo (1:10:18)
absolutely.

Yeah. ⁓ I mean how many it even just the aesthetics of restaurants, how many look really nice online? And then you go in and you're like, these are cheap. This is a cheap restaurant that was made to look good online. Yeah. ⁓ what is something that you've changed your mind about, either industry wise or just life in general?

Beth Kimmerle (1:10:29)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

you know I used to I used to think back in the day, ⁓ that novelty drove innovation.

Mike Kostyo (1:10:46)
Mm, mm.

Beth Kimmerle (1:10:48)
And now I think there's something about nostalgia and f being familiar or or in it it or intelligently reimagined is much more powerful. And it's not it's not novelty. And I think we've I mean we're all we've all seen enough of the pink sauces and the pony pink pony whatever whatever.

Mike Kostyo (1:10:59)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ha ha ha.

Maeve Webster (1:11:14)
Litter,

whatever.

Beth Kimmerle (1:11:16)
Yeah.

that that it's not about novelty, it's really about ab about history.

Mike Kostyo (1:11:25)
Hmm. Mm. Which could that's its own episode is because you have a great background in history and we need to get into it. what is one book, TV show, movie, or product that you would recommend to anybody?

Beth Kimmerle (1:11:29)
I know.

Well, if if we're on the topic, ⁓ and I'm not I'm not saying this, but ⁓ just because I've I I've been on the show, but I do love the food that built America. And it is the one it is the one media thing that I love talking to people about because you know, listen, I collect and I study historical things and I I I've always been fascinated by the by the history to inform the future.

Mike Kostyo (1:11:40)
Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (1:12:07)
for years and years. but the I think the food that built America they do over kind kinda dramati d dramatize this product versus this product. But it is a real it is a really cool way to look at food and try to understand understand the cultural context of food, which I think is really, really important when when when we're talking about food, why the why behind it. And what was happening happening culturally

Mike Kostyo (1:12:14)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Liquid.

Beth Kimmerle (1:12:35)
what was, you know, happening to us as a society. all of a sudden kids had more spending money, then you you y you you get you get better candy, you know? All of these things are are are correlated. So is it cheesy that I'm saying Food that built America? It's a good it's

Mike Kostyo (1:12:44)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

No, no, absolutely not. no. And you were

on is it two episodes of the most recent season that people should watch for?

Beth Kimmerle (1:12:57)
I was I was on

one ⁓ talking about gum. and tr and trying to talk and blow bubbles at the same time. It wasn't and then and then I think one was about chocolate drinks. Yeah. Yeah, I don't want I can't watch that. My t already told you. I don't I don't I don't ⁓ not the ones I'm on, but all the others. Okay.

Mike Kostyo (1:13:00)
Gum, okay.

Maeve Webster (1:13:01)
Mmm.

Mike Kostyo (1:13:04)
yeah, I saw the picture that you posted. Yeah, that was great. huh.

Okay, okay. ⁓

Yeah, yeah. Editing

the podcast is hard. You have to listen to yourself for an hour. Yeah. ⁓ and then so we always end with a question for you from our last guest, which is Rebecca Kilbrath, the editor in chief of Restaurant Development and Design Magazine.

Maeve Webster (1:13:24)
Yeah.

Beth Kimmerle (1:13:26)
I know, I know. I know.

Mike Kostyo (1:13:39)
Wants to know what's a weird little passion that you have, something outside the industry. What would your for you page on TikTok give up about you? what's kind of the rabbit hole that you love to go down?

Beth Kimmerle (1:13:51)
⁓ okay. Well I'm gonna keep it on theme and let's just make it about the fact that I do collect and study historical food related things. And that could include ⁓ metal chocolate molds. It could be my dance pot collection. It could be it could be

Mike Kostyo (1:13:53)
Okay.

Mm.

Beth Kimmerle (1:14:14)
serving wear, it could be ephemera, you know, I love a a a ra a a good vintage wrapper. I have a huge collection from doing my f my first two books on the history of chocolate and candy and that's like advertisements and and and that kind of stuff. And it's really it's really basically about, you know, obscure culinary history. ⁓

Mike Kostyo (1:14:17)
Mm.

Beth Kimmerle (1:14:39)
I have old machine some old machines that are really cool, like h hard candy crank machines that you can you can run molten sugar through to get so it's probably not surpr it's probably not surprising, but it is it is a passion project 'cause you should see the look on my face when I find something that is related and is like the missing piece for my collection. I'm like, Yes, that is that that is so cool. So I

Mike Kostyo (1:14:45)
Mm, mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Ha ha ha.

I have three

questions already just about that. Yes.

Beth Kimmerle (1:15:09)
So yeah, and and and and like you're well you're welcome,

you're welcome at any time, but like the last piece I got to see the collection, but the last piece I got was a Libby's sign. Libby's was a was a Chicago area company that specialized, I think, in canned and jarred fruits and vegetables, if I'm not mistaken. And so

Mike Kostyo (1:15:23)
Mm-hmm.

Beth Kimmerle (1:15:32)
I I I scored a hand painted Libby's ⁓ fruit cocktail in a in a jar sign. It's so beautiful. That's in my it's that's in I'm gonna take a picture of it and send it to you, but it's it's it's in my in my s what I call my studio right now. ⁓ it's it's

Mike Kostyo (1:15:39)
Yeah.

Okay, yeah.

'Cause I was gonna

say, where do you keep all this stuff? Yeah, yeah.

Maeve Webster (1:15:51)
Yeah!

Beth Kimmerle (1:15:53)
Well, I turn

I turned what was formerly a two car garage into what I call my studio. So that's where the passion project obsession collection lives. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mike Kostyo (1:16:02)
I love it. I love it.

Well, and then what is your question for our next guest?

Beth Kimmerle (1:16:08)
I so this one was tough for me because ⁓ like you guys, I I have a million questions for your next guy. So how do you how do you distill it into into one? That's both challenging and and on topic, but I think mine would be what food trend do you think people are pretending to like?

Mike Kostyo (1:16:13)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

love that one. I know Maeve's answer ready. ⁓ Yeah. and I feel like I always say this, but knowing our next guest, he will be very honest and he will probably have five as well. So ⁓ love well, this has been absolutely phenomenal. Again, we not only need to have another episode, but even just for our own edification, need to to keep chatting with you.

Maeve Webster (1:16:28)
Ooh, I like that one.

I got about five that just popped to mind right off the top.

Beth Kimmerle (1:16:36)
I thought so.

Awesome.

Yes.

Mike Kostyo (1:16:55)
But if somebody wants to get a hold of you, follow you, where's the best way to do that?

Beth Kimmerle (1:17:00)
I'm Beth Kimberly at Attribute Analytics. So you can follow me on LinkedIn. You can I I I believe I believe Attribute Analytics has its own website. And so does Beth Kimberly. So there you have it. I'm pretty easy to get a hold of.

Mike Kostyo (1:17:15)
⁓ thank you so much for being on the show. Yes, really appreciate it.

Maeve Webster (1:17:17)
Yeah, thank you. This was great.

Beth Kimmerle (1:17:20)
Awesome to see you guys. Happy summer and hope to see you soon.

Mike Kostyo (1:17:24)
Yes, we will see you in person soon. Absolutely. Yes. All right. Thanks, Beth. Bye.

Maeve Webster (1:17:25)
Likewise.

Beth Kimmerle (1:17:27)
Okay, okay, great. Thanks for having me on the show. Bye guys.

Maeve Webster (1:17:31)
Bye.