1 00:00:00,180 --> 00:00:02,220 Welcome back to the episode of the Startup Therapy Podcast. 2 00:00:02,220 --> 00:00:04,050 This is Ryan Rutan, joined as always by my 3 00:00:04,050 --> 00:00:06,330 friend, the founder, and CEO of startups.com. 4 00:00:06,330 --> 00:00:11,040 Will, Schroeder will, there's a lot of talk in the startup space 5 00:00:11,040 --> 00:00:13,830 about the fact that we need to stay focused, focused, focused. 6 00:00:14,340 --> 00:00:17,130 Um, and while I agree with that. 7 00:00:17,849 --> 00:00:18,689 By and large. 8 00:00:18,689 --> 00:00:20,880 I think there's, there's a few things that we need to 9 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,849 consider within that, and, and there's an important aspect, 10 00:00:23,849 --> 00:00:26,369 I think that's played a part in both of our, our lives and 11 00:00:26,369 --> 00:00:29,790 startup careers and some of our hobbies too, that that shows 12 00:00:29,790 --> 00:00:30,750 up on a pretty regular basis. 13 00:00:30,750 --> 00:00:34,170 And in fact, you are just having a conversation about this with 14 00:00:34,170 --> 00:00:35,760 one of our startups.com members. 15 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,090 So why don't you, why don't you kick off with, with that, 16 00:00:39,090 --> 00:00:40,080 and let's go from there. 17 00:00:40,635 --> 00:00:43,545 Well, it started the, the conversation started with 18 00:00:43,545 --> 00:00:45,885 nothing to do with what we're gonna talk about today. 19 00:00:46,245 --> 00:00:48,765 But what was funny was he reached out to me 'cause he got 20 00:00:48,765 --> 00:00:51,465 my newsletter, which is usually the basis for how we do these. 21 00:00:51,795 --> 00:00:54,644 And uh, he said, will, I gotta be honest, this sounds 22 00:00:54,644 --> 00:00:57,230 like it was written by AI and I, I just thought, and 23 00:00:57,235 --> 00:00:58,754 it wasn't by the way, right? 24 00:00:59,205 --> 00:00:59,295 Yeah. 25 00:00:59,325 --> 00:01:01,935 But the time that we're in, like, the times that 26 00:01:01,935 --> 00:01:05,414 we're in, I thought it was funny that like everyone is 27 00:01:05,414 --> 00:01:06,795 kind of like trying to see. 28 00:01:07,265 --> 00:01:07,925 Is it real? 29 00:01:07,925 --> 00:01:08,915 Or you know, whatever. 30 00:01:09,365 --> 00:01:11,945 And I wrote back to him and I said, ah, no, actually this 31 00:01:11,945 --> 00:01:12,995 was actually written by me. 32 00:01:12,995 --> 00:01:16,595 However, however, maybe because I've been spending so much 33 00:01:16,595 --> 00:01:20,225 time with ai, I'm starting to write like ai, which I thought 34 00:01:20,225 --> 00:01:21,005 was kind of interesting. 35 00:01:21,095 --> 00:01:21,785 Yes. 36 00:01:21,785 --> 00:01:25,325 And AI was trained on some of the best writers 37 00:01:25,325 --> 00:01:26,135 in the world, right? 38 00:01:26,135 --> 00:01:28,085 So maybe you're just one of the best writers in the world will. 39 00:01:28,085 --> 00:01:28,295 Right. 40 00:01:28,295 --> 00:01:28,805 Maybe that's 41 00:01:28,805 --> 00:01:30,425 exactly where I was headed with that. 42 00:01:30,425 --> 00:01:30,575 So. 43 00:01:31,310 --> 00:01:32,570 That's where I started. 44 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,210 I mean, I think that's the most likely, most likely scenario. 45 00:01:35,270 --> 00:01:35,480 Yeah. 46 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:35,720 Yeah. 47 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:37,130 So he and I were talking, we were going through some 48 00:01:37,130 --> 00:01:39,320 challenges he was having, and so for, who is it? 49 00:01:39,320 --> 00:01:41,900 We never re uh, reveal names on here, but I know 50 00:01:41,900 --> 00:01:42,560 that you're listening. 51 00:01:42,620 --> 00:01:44,540 This episode is dedicated to you. 52 00:01:44,900 --> 00:01:46,490 And I told him that we would create an episode 53 00:01:46,490 --> 00:01:47,540 forum when we were talking. 54 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:51,470 And what we were talking about was the value of the side quest. 55 00:01:51,470 --> 00:01:52,550 And it just so happens. 56 00:01:52,940 --> 00:01:55,130 That he was a, he's from the video game industry. 57 00:01:55,370 --> 00:01:55,490 Oh, 58 00:01:55,550 --> 00:01:59,179 and for our fellow gamers out there, a side quest, as you 59 00:01:59,179 --> 00:02:03,620 would know, is when you deviate from the main quest is your 60 00:02:03,620 --> 00:02:06,890 business, your focus and you go on a different mission that 61 00:02:06,890 --> 00:02:10,190 isn't necessarily connected to the main quest but could 62 00:02:10,190 --> 00:02:11,390 also reveal some treasure. 63 00:02:11,780 --> 00:02:12,020 Yes. 64 00:02:12,050 --> 00:02:12,890 I dunno about you Ryan. 65 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:14,120 I love side quest. 66 00:02:14,665 --> 00:02:15,185 I live side Quest. 67 00:02:15,245 --> 00:02:15,985 I'm Quest. 68 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:17,450 I side Quest like crazy. 69 00:02:17,860 --> 00:02:21,580 Right, and, and, and I feel like what we've learned in 70 00:02:21,580 --> 00:02:24,430 our business@startups.com were those side quests, those 71 00:02:24,430 --> 00:02:26,650 distractions as they would be called those deviations. 72 00:02:27,885 --> 00:02:30,645 Have become the most important part of our business. 73 00:02:30,825 --> 00:02:33,135 A hundred percent, man, they might look like a detour 74 00:02:33,135 --> 00:02:35,505 to begin with, but at some point they either end up 75 00:02:35,505 --> 00:02:39,075 becoming a shortcut or just the path that ends up saving 76 00:02:39,075 --> 00:02:40,335 the entire run, you know? 77 00:02:40,575 --> 00:02:40,845 Right. 78 00:02:40,845 --> 00:02:43,605 And it looks something like this, Hey, we're doing business 79 00:02:43,605 --> 00:02:46,394 A and everything you know is probably okay, maybe not. 80 00:02:46,575 --> 00:02:47,355 Let's say it's okay. 81 00:02:47,415 --> 00:02:47,595 Yep. 82 00:02:48,105 --> 00:02:51,825 And co-founder comes up and says, Hey, I wanna try path 83 00:02:51,825 --> 00:02:54,405 B. And path B is a tangent. 84 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,590 It's something we don't normally do. 85 00:02:57,859 --> 00:03:02,150 And what I wanna talk through in this episode is how that tangent 86 00:03:02,420 --> 00:03:04,040 normally is dismissed, right? 87 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:05,420 Usually it's, Hey, that's not focused. 88 00:03:05,420 --> 00:03:06,500 That's not the main Quest line. 89 00:03:06,500 --> 00:03:07,880 That's that's not what we're here to do. 90 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:09,829 And I think it's a giant mistake. 91 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:11,870 Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying let's 92 00:03:11,870 --> 00:03:12,890 get distracted as hell. 93 00:03:12,890 --> 00:03:13,155 Yeah, yeah, 94 00:03:13,155 --> 00:03:13,355 yeah. 95 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,090 I'm saying we gotta keep our minds open that maybe 96 00:03:17,150 --> 00:03:20,240 just maybe in almost every case for us, just maybe. 97 00:03:20,845 --> 00:03:23,994 That side quest, that distraction leads to 98 00:03:23,994 --> 00:03:25,165 a better business. 99 00:03:25,434 --> 00:03:25,704 Yeah. 100 00:03:25,795 --> 00:03:27,445 And that I think I wanna unpack today. 101 00:03:27,535 --> 00:03:28,135 Yeah, man. 102 00:03:28,135 --> 00:03:30,295 I mean, I think this is way too easily written off as 103 00:03:30,295 --> 00:03:35,815 like the A DHD machinations of founders when when I 104 00:03:35,815 --> 00:03:38,875 look at its, man, it's curiosity as risk management. 105 00:03:39,660 --> 00:03:40,079 Curiosity. 106 00:03:40,109 --> 00:03:40,320 Wow. 107 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:41,880 That's a much better way to put it. 108 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:42,030 Yeah. 109 00:03:42,030 --> 00:03:44,820 We're out there just exploring and figuring out what, 110 00:03:44,820 --> 00:03:45,870 what should we be doing? 111 00:03:45,870 --> 00:03:48,600 But, so let's start by talking about like, what I think 112 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,690 you, you've called the myth of the linear path, right? 113 00:03:51,695 --> 00:03:52,145 Right, right. 114 00:03:52,145 --> 00:03:54,660 Like this, the linear path that fairytale that we tell 115 00:03:54,660 --> 00:03:58,050 investors where, you know, in reality I see the real path 116 00:03:58,050 --> 00:04:02,220 is being more of a series of right angle turns based on some 117 00:04:02,220 --> 00:04:03,360 well-informed guesses, right? 118 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:04,870 Things that we gotta go explore, things we gotta think about. 119 00:04:05,325 --> 00:04:05,715 For sure. 120 00:04:05,715 --> 00:04:08,415 And I, I think if you didn't know how this business actually 121 00:04:08,415 --> 00:04:11,325 works, and Ryan, you and I have the benefit of working 122 00:04:11,325 --> 00:04:14,445 with thousands and thousands and thousands of, of founders. 123 00:04:14,625 --> 00:04:17,865 So we see every path there is, but what people think the 124 00:04:17,865 --> 00:04:19,875 path is, if you haven't done this before, most people are 125 00:04:19,875 --> 00:04:20,835 doing it for the first time. 126 00:04:21,135 --> 00:04:23,985 What you think the path is is that you have an 127 00:04:23,985 --> 00:04:25,395 idea, you build product. 128 00:04:25,665 --> 00:04:27,855 Product is accepted by market, company grows. 129 00:04:28,005 --> 00:04:28,695 That's how it works. 130 00:04:28,725 --> 00:04:30,375 And then there's a couple of twists and turns, but 131 00:04:30,375 --> 00:04:31,065 that's pretty much it. 132 00:04:31,095 --> 00:04:31,275 Yeah. 133 00:04:31,635 --> 00:04:32,895 It's not how this works. 134 00:04:32,895 --> 00:04:33,705 No, whatsoever. 135 00:04:33,705 --> 00:04:33,765 No. 136 00:04:34,724 --> 00:04:37,494 Like that's maybe what you think is in the brochure, but that 137 00:04:37,515 --> 00:04:38,594 that ain't in the brochure. 138 00:04:38,775 --> 00:04:39,104 Right. 139 00:04:39,645 --> 00:04:42,555 The real path is we have an idea. 140 00:04:42,825 --> 00:04:45,075 Within a few months, we realize it's a shitty idea. 141 00:04:45,585 --> 00:04:48,224 We rebuild idea, we try second idea. 142 00:04:48,224 --> 00:04:48,284 Yeah. 143 00:04:48,315 --> 00:04:49,784 That's also a shitty idea. 144 00:04:50,085 --> 00:04:51,674 And then we rebuild it and rebuild and then 145 00:04:51,674 --> 00:04:52,604 we just keep doing it. 146 00:04:52,604 --> 00:04:52,664 Yeah. 147 00:04:53,465 --> 00:04:54,784 Incrementally less shitty 148 00:04:55,025 --> 00:04:56,195 kinda, right? 149 00:04:56,195 --> 00:04:59,405 Like sometimes like iterating sounds like what happens 150 00:04:59,405 --> 00:05:02,135 when you mysteriously had a good idea the first time 151 00:05:02,375 --> 00:05:02,405 uhhuh 152 00:05:02,705 --> 00:05:04,594 and it just kept, you know, being a good idea, 153 00:05:04,594 --> 00:05:05,765 which rarely ever happens. 154 00:05:06,155 --> 00:05:08,435 That's the myth of the linear path that we have an 155 00:05:08,435 --> 00:05:10,745 idea, we say undistracted and we just go and execute 156 00:05:10,745 --> 00:05:11,525 and everything works. 157 00:05:11,675 --> 00:05:12,605 That sounds awesome. 158 00:05:12,784 --> 00:05:13,085 Does 159 00:05:13,090 --> 00:05:13,290 and if. 160 00:05:13,830 --> 00:05:15,750 If you could magically do that, do that. 161 00:05:16,185 --> 00:05:16,475 Yeah. 162 00:05:16,945 --> 00:05:17,475 Good luck with 163 00:05:17,475 --> 00:05:17,555 that. 164 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:18,120 You know what's funny? 165 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:19,470 Will, you know what's funny to me? 166 00:05:19,470 --> 00:05:23,820 Like anytime the path starts to feel like perfectly linear, 167 00:05:23,820 --> 00:05:26,155 smooth, my first instinct is. 168 00:05:26,969 --> 00:05:27,750 What am I missing? 169 00:05:27,990 --> 00:05:28,200 Right. 170 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,180 I guess because we've done this so much that like 171 00:05:30,180 --> 00:05:32,849 the second it's like you just keep going straight. 172 00:05:32,849 --> 00:05:34,740 I'm like, are you sure about that? 173 00:05:34,740 --> 00:05:36,930 Like, 'cause it never has ever, ever, never worked 174 00:05:36,930 --> 00:05:37,830 out that way in the past. 175 00:05:37,830 --> 00:05:40,950 So when it does start to feel like it's just on 176 00:05:40,950 --> 00:05:42,930 rails, as they say, I'm like. 177 00:05:43,284 --> 00:05:45,145 I, something's we're missing something here. 178 00:05:45,205 --> 00:05:46,164 Something's gotta be off. 179 00:05:46,465 --> 00:05:47,755 Let's take it back a step. 180 00:05:48,145 --> 00:05:50,695 Let's think of how improbable it would be, 181 00:05:51,085 --> 00:05:51,325 right? 182 00:05:51,325 --> 00:05:53,275 That you could maintain a linear path, right? 183 00:05:53,305 --> 00:05:53,485 Yeah. 184 00:05:53,544 --> 00:05:55,495 Here's what would have to happen in order for this to 185 00:05:55,495 --> 00:05:56,844 actually be even possible. 186 00:05:57,325 --> 00:06:01,585 Number one, you'd have to have an idea that had perfect product 187 00:06:01,585 --> 00:06:02,969 market fit or damn near to it. 188 00:06:02,969 --> 00:06:03,250 Mm-hmm. 189 00:06:03,330 --> 00:06:04,075 Now here's what's great. 190 00:06:04,585 --> 00:06:07,224 You would've had to have that idea and have never 191 00:06:07,224 --> 00:06:08,395 built or tested it yet. 192 00:06:09,405 --> 00:06:10,965 Or put it out in the market meaningfully or 193 00:06:10,965 --> 00:06:12,075 try to acquire customers. 194 00:06:12,075 --> 00:06:14,895 All the things that come and somehow still hit that stride 195 00:06:14,895 --> 00:06:16,784 in order to make zero deviation. 196 00:06:17,745 --> 00:06:20,625 Then competitors would enter the market and investors 197 00:06:20,625 --> 00:06:22,875 would enter the market and you'd have to hire lots of 198 00:06:22,875 --> 00:06:25,485 people who have their own ideas, et cetera, and somehow 199 00:06:25,485 --> 00:06:29,625 mysteriously, none of that would change your path whatsoever. 200 00:06:30,045 --> 00:06:32,895 Like all of those things would have to fall online in order for 201 00:06:32,895 --> 00:06:34,545 you to not deviate from path. 202 00:06:34,840 --> 00:06:38,260 Now I say that this isn't saying focus isn't important. 203 00:06:39,010 --> 00:06:40,930 Focus at the expense. 204 00:06:41,230 --> 00:06:41,500 Yeah. 205 00:06:41,650 --> 00:06:44,560 Of seeing what else is there is dangerous in my mind. 206 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:44,650 Yes. 207 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:45,400 I love focus. 208 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:46,210 We love focus. 209 00:06:46,270 --> 00:06:46,630 Yes. 210 00:06:47,170 --> 00:06:48,250 But there's a cost to it. 211 00:06:48,850 --> 00:06:52,480 Focus is only noble if you're working on the right thing. 212 00:06:52,485 --> 00:06:52,795 Right. 213 00:06:53,155 --> 00:06:54,925 Other, how do you know it is? 214 00:06:54,925 --> 00:06:55,870 Absolutely not. 215 00:06:55,870 --> 00:06:56,740 It is just, yeah. 216 00:06:56,890 --> 00:06:58,390 It is just planned distraction. 217 00:06:59,265 --> 00:07:00,255 Yeah, play distraction. 218 00:07:00,255 --> 00:07:02,895 And I think that because folks haven't done this before, 219 00:07:02,895 --> 00:07:03,974 they haven't seen other path. 220 00:07:04,365 --> 00:07:06,585 Like look at it this way, if you came from big Corp. 221 00:07:07,230 --> 00:07:10,770 Big Corp exists now because some dude, years and years 222 00:07:10,770 --> 00:07:13,560 ago, probably decades, if not centuries ago, went through this 223 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,330 process and got you to here. 224 00:07:15,630 --> 00:07:17,370 Now that you're at Big Corp, you're at some 225 00:07:17,370 --> 00:07:19,650 insurance company or bank or whatever you're at, right? 226 00:07:20,010 --> 00:07:22,590 All of those things have been figured out, like all the side 227 00:07:22,590 --> 00:07:23,640 quests have already happened. 228 00:07:24,090 --> 00:07:26,040 Now, that's not to say at a big corp you couldn't, you know, 229 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,910 have a side quest, but it's rare, and I say that because a 230 00:07:29,910 --> 00:07:32,100 co-founder, let's say, coming out of that environment, 231 00:07:32,790 --> 00:07:35,250 they're used to the fact that things have been figured out. 232 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,979 There isn't a reason to go on a side quest because Right. 233 00:07:38,309 --> 00:07:39,929 We've already figured out product market fit. 234 00:07:39,929 --> 00:07:40,080 Oh man. 235 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:41,549 Competition and everything else like that. 236 00:07:41,820 --> 00:07:42,059 Yeah. 237 00:07:42,119 --> 00:07:44,549 So you go into a startup with that mentality and 238 00:07:44,549 --> 00:07:46,679 you're like, Hey, why would we do anything else Uhhuh? 239 00:07:46,679 --> 00:07:49,650 And it's like, dude, you had the benefit of someone else 240 00:07:49,650 --> 00:07:50,760 having figured this out. 241 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:51,690 This isn't that. 242 00:07:52,110 --> 00:07:52,950 Yeah, no. 243 00:07:53,010 --> 00:07:55,530 Linear planning is what happens when, uh, ego's 244 00:07:55,530 --> 00:07:56,580 in charge of the roadmap, 245 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:57,610 right? 246 00:07:57,610 --> 00:07:57,900 Uh, right. 247 00:07:57,905 --> 00:07:58,260 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 248 00:07:58,470 --> 00:08:00,570 ' cause honestly, like, I think it's one of the most dangerous 249 00:08:00,570 --> 00:08:01,800 phrase in, in startups, right? 250 00:08:01,980 --> 00:08:02,700 We already know. 251 00:08:03,180 --> 00:08:05,850 Do you though, do you really actually know? 252 00:08:06,090 --> 00:08:06,240 Right. 253 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:07,860 Especially if, like, in your case, you're 254 00:08:07,860 --> 00:08:08,640 coming from like the. 255 00:08:08,925 --> 00:08:11,355 Example you're providing, if you're coming from Big Corp 256 00:08:11,355 --> 00:08:12,675 or something, you're gonna go start something that's 257 00:08:12,675 --> 00:08:14,415 based on the experiences that you already have. 258 00:08:15,075 --> 00:08:16,905 Yes, you do know some things, right? 259 00:08:16,905 --> 00:08:19,725 But those have to be readapted to the startup 260 00:08:19,725 --> 00:08:20,625 environment, right. 261 00:08:20,625 --> 00:08:21,105 And right. 262 00:08:21,105 --> 00:08:22,905 Certainty is not a startup asset. 263 00:08:23,175 --> 00:08:23,445 Right? 264 00:08:23,445 --> 00:08:26,505 Adaptability is, but, but certainty, I think in most 265 00:08:26,505 --> 00:08:28,365 cases is a startup liability. 266 00:08:28,455 --> 00:08:29,325 'cause we just don't know. 267 00:08:29,475 --> 00:08:29,805 Right. 268 00:08:30,070 --> 00:08:32,289 A roadmap is just a story, right? 269 00:08:32,289 --> 00:08:34,060 It's a theory, not even a theory, sorry. 270 00:08:34,060 --> 00:08:35,050 It's a hypothesis. 271 00:08:35,530 --> 00:08:37,870 The exploration is what provides the evidence that allows us 272 00:08:37,870 --> 00:08:39,760 to turn it into a theory, but we have to go through that 273 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:43,570 exploration, and exploration comes most of the time through 274 00:08:43,570 --> 00:08:44,145 all this side questioning. 275 00:08:44,730 --> 00:08:47,250 One of the last episodes we did was how we're 276 00:08:47,250 --> 00:08:48,240 really good at failure. 277 00:08:48,570 --> 00:08:48,660 Oh yeah. 278 00:08:48,660 --> 00:08:51,060 And I think this tethers a lot to the side questing, the 279 00:08:51,060 --> 00:08:53,640 idea that we're willing to go try kind of everything. 280 00:08:53,700 --> 00:08:53,940 Mm-hmm. 281 00:08:53,946 --> 00:08:55,770 Really just kind of everything and see what 282 00:08:55,770 --> 00:08:56,760 works and what doesn't. 283 00:08:56,790 --> 00:08:56,850 Yeah. 284 00:08:56,850 --> 00:08:59,430 Because we're really good at, at regrouping, uh, when 285 00:08:59,430 --> 00:09:00,660 failure happens invariably. 286 00:09:01,110 --> 00:09:03,720 But I think for a lot of folks, they haven't had to 287 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,840 go through that level of just jump off the bridge and see 288 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:08,010 what happens kind of moment. 289 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:09,540 And they're terrified of it. 290 00:09:09,540 --> 00:09:10,320 And to be fair. 291 00:09:10,620 --> 00:09:12,480 It's because it's terrifying, right? 292 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:14,850 So again, if, if you're battling your co-founder, let's say, 293 00:09:14,865 --> 00:09:17,340 in, in, in this case, I'm saying co-founder wants to stay 294 00:09:17,340 --> 00:09:19,230 straight and narrow and you wanna try something different. 295 00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:22,200 If you're battling co-founder and co-founder 296 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,050 is like, I want to go in this specific direction. 297 00:09:25,260 --> 00:09:27,450 And I think any deviation is a mistake. 298 00:09:27,630 --> 00:09:27,840 Yeah. 299 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:28,905 There's nothing wrong with convict. 300 00:09:29,560 --> 00:09:31,150 Nothing wrong with conviction and, and I 301 00:09:31,150 --> 00:09:32,920 respect that, that in focus, 302 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:34,090 that's exactly it, right? 303 00:09:34,090 --> 00:09:35,260 It's conviction's great. 304 00:09:35,740 --> 00:09:38,020 If you've developed conviction around the 305 00:09:38,020 --> 00:09:39,970 vector, that's actually going to lead to success. 306 00:09:39,970 --> 00:09:42,400 But like at the stage at which sometimes we become 307 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,340 convicted, it's, we get convicted with, it becomes a 308 00:09:45,340 --> 00:09:46,205 life sentence of the wrong sort. 309 00:09:46,810 --> 00:09:47,950 We don't want that. 310 00:09:47,950 --> 00:09:49,510 We gotta be really careful. 311 00:09:49,510 --> 00:09:51,310 And I think it's important to think about, you know, we're 312 00:09:51,310 --> 00:09:54,100 not changing our mind, we're not changing course entirely. 313 00:09:54,370 --> 00:09:55,450 We're updating our model. 314 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:55,780 Right. 315 00:09:55,780 --> 00:09:58,840 We're being flexible enough because to your point, we 316 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,710 couldn't possibly, we wouldn't have prob probably would not 317 00:10:02,710 --> 00:10:03,670 be right from the beginning. 318 00:10:03,820 --> 00:10:04,180 Right? 319 00:10:04,185 --> 00:10:04,255 Right. 320 00:10:04,540 --> 00:10:06,640 It is an experiment of process. 321 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,610 We have to do these things and so to me, the side quests 322 00:10:09,670 --> 00:10:10,810 are, are the laboratory. 323 00:10:11,350 --> 00:10:13,870 I don't think as a company matures even a little bit, 324 00:10:14,020 --> 00:10:15,970 you know, from, from an idea, even the product in 325 00:10:15,970 --> 00:10:18,880 market, I don't think people understand that this process 326 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:20,170 doesn't end, for example. 327 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:20,620 Correct. 328 00:10:20,620 --> 00:10:23,170 In the early stages, you know, we got an A lean startup, 329 00:10:23,170 --> 00:10:25,420 we got an A hypothesis, we got all these things 330 00:10:25,420 --> 00:10:26,770 about an idea validation. 331 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:26,980 Yep. 332 00:10:27,340 --> 00:10:29,170 And the idea was, hey, we're gonna try a bunch of stuff 333 00:10:29,170 --> 00:10:31,270 and we're gonna see which idea sticks and what to build. 334 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:33,910 That's not where this process stops. 335 00:10:33,940 --> 00:10:34,240 Correct. 336 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:36,580 That is one miles. 337 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:37,140 Stone. 338 00:10:37,170 --> 00:10:37,440 Yeah. 339 00:10:37,710 --> 00:10:40,830 But the process where we have to keep looking at what, what if, 340 00:10:40,830 --> 00:10:43,620 what else, what next never ends. 341 00:10:43,950 --> 00:10:47,310 And I think when it starts to end is when you actually start 342 00:10:47,310 --> 00:10:48,600 to run into problems, right? 343 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:48,660 Yeah. 344 00:10:48,690 --> 00:10:50,730 Where, when you actually start to run into a situation 345 00:10:51,030 --> 00:10:53,520 where your competition's like, well, we'll try out What if. 346 00:10:54,270 --> 00:10:55,079 Exactly it. 347 00:10:55,170 --> 00:10:55,380 Right? 348 00:10:55,380 --> 00:10:56,699 It's, it's, it's what we said before, right? 349 00:10:56,699 --> 00:10:59,640 It's, it's when, when you know, right, when you, when you have 350 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,189 certainty, you think you have certainty and that can feel 351 00:11:02,189 --> 00:11:04,110 very secure and that can feel, that can feel really great. 352 00:11:04,290 --> 00:11:06,569 I dunno if you saw this will, but there was a, an 353 00:11:06,569 --> 00:11:10,530 interesting physics discovery made this week that actually 354 00:11:10,530 --> 00:11:12,240 reversed a previous theory. 355 00:11:12,810 --> 00:11:13,800 Using ai. 356 00:11:14,430 --> 00:11:16,170 And the, the thing that they found most interesting 357 00:11:16,170 --> 00:11:18,630 about it was that the, the discovery, the fact that it 358 00:11:18,630 --> 00:11:21,449 reversed an existing, kind of proven to the extent 359 00:11:21,449 --> 00:11:22,589 that we could theory Yeah. 360 00:11:22,589 --> 00:11:26,040 And then hypothesized and, and proved, uh, the, the real 361 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:27,780 solution to this, the findings. 362 00:11:27,780 --> 00:11:30,000 When humans looked at this, they went, like, one of the reasons 363 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,189 this happened is, is that's something that a human would've 364 00:11:32,189 --> 00:11:33,540 been Sure wouldn't have worked. 365 00:11:34,020 --> 00:11:34,349 Ah, right. 366 00:11:34,349 --> 00:11:34,920 Exactly. 367 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:35,400 Exactly. 368 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:36,569 Uncertainty, right? 369 00:11:36,719 --> 00:11:39,240 So let's play this out in our world, meaning 370 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:40,349 the startups.com world. 371 00:11:40,349 --> 00:11:40,650 Okay. 372 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:41,099 I wanna. 373 00:11:41,459 --> 00:11:44,220 Prove a, a case where I believe these side quests 374 00:11:44,220 --> 00:11:45,329 aren't distractions. 375 00:11:45,569 --> 00:11:46,920 They can be, by the way. 376 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,829 You can absolutely just be straight up distracted, right? 377 00:11:49,829 --> 00:11:49,890 Yeah, 378 00:11:50,125 --> 00:11:50,415 yeah. 379 00:11:50,420 --> 00:11:50,819 And 380 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:52,110 well, yes, yes, of course. 381 00:11:52,860 --> 00:11:55,740 Every one of us has some level of a DH ADHD that, that feeds 382 00:11:55,740 --> 00:11:56,970 that distraction beautifully. 383 00:11:57,089 --> 00:11:59,400 There's plenty of shiny ball syndrome in the in, 384 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:00,180 in the founder space. 385 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:00,839 Oh my God. 386 00:12:00,839 --> 00:12:01,140 Right. 387 00:12:01,319 --> 00:12:03,814 Let's go back in time to the year 2012. 388 00:12:03,819 --> 00:12:03,959 Uhhuh. 389 00:12:04,860 --> 00:12:05,640 I remember it 390 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:05,730 well. 391 00:12:05,730 --> 00:12:07,530 You and I were, were younger and more vibrant. 392 00:12:07,770 --> 00:12:09,900 We were launching a company called fundable.com, 393 00:12:09,900 --> 00:12:10,860 which still exists today. 394 00:12:11,310 --> 00:12:14,820 And at the time, crowdfunding was a huge deal. 395 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:14,940 Yeah. 396 00:12:14,940 --> 00:12:15,720 Was a huge deal. 397 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,000 This was like, like the era of Kickstarter, you know, in 398 00:12:18,180 --> 00:12:19,560 Indiegogo back in that day. 399 00:12:20,339 --> 00:12:22,980 And we decided around 2011, 'cause that's when 400 00:12:22,980 --> 00:12:23,699 we were building it. 401 00:12:23,699 --> 00:12:26,040 And then we launched it in 2012 that we were gonna launch an 402 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:27,630 equity crowdfunding platform. 403 00:12:27,630 --> 00:12:27,900 Yes. 404 00:12:27,930 --> 00:12:30,120 Where people could make equity investments on the same 405 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,610 way they were making reward style investments for, uh, 406 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,250 products just sitting around waiting for Obama to sign 407 00:12:35,250 --> 00:12:36,270 the jobs act to make it. 408 00:12:36,329 --> 00:12:36,930 Yeah, exactly. 409 00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:38,040 Oh man. 410 00:12:38,579 --> 00:12:39,300 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 411 00:12:39,630 --> 00:12:40,765 And so, so we're all pumped up. 412 00:12:41,305 --> 00:12:43,165 This is gonna be world changing, what have you. 413 00:12:43,194 --> 00:12:43,344 Yep. 414 00:12:43,615 --> 00:12:46,344 And it turns out what, like 30 other companies, 415 00:12:46,375 --> 00:12:48,954 it was pumped up as we were doing the same exact thing. 416 00:12:48,959 --> 00:12:49,020 Oh 417 00:12:49,025 --> 00:12:49,105 yeah. 418 00:12:49,375 --> 00:12:50,844 It was quite a crowd at the starting 419 00:12:50,844 --> 00:12:50,935 gate. 420 00:12:50,935 --> 00:12:53,125 A funny aside, 'cause 'cause as I, you know this, but I, 421 00:12:53,125 --> 00:12:56,035 I want to tell the audience, there was this moment where I'm 422 00:12:56,035 --> 00:12:59,305 sitting across from a friend of mine in Santa Monica and 423 00:12:59,305 --> 00:13:01,735 we're both talking about how pumped up we are about our new 424 00:13:01,735 --> 00:13:04,855 ideas, and about halfway into the conversation it occurs 425 00:13:04,855 --> 00:13:07,100 to us that we're talking about the exact same idea. 426 00:13:07,100 --> 00:13:07,459 We're rolling 427 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:08,305 the same thing. 428 00:13:08,395 --> 00:13:08,635 Yeah. 429 00:13:08,725 --> 00:13:10,105 And it was so awkward. 430 00:13:10,370 --> 00:13:12,650 He'd be like saying, I just met this girl. 431 00:13:12,740 --> 00:13:14,210 She's the girl of my dreams. 432 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:16,700 Like, I'm, I'm ready to propose I bought the ring, right? 433 00:13:16,700 --> 00:13:17,990 I think I'm gonna propose tomorrow. 434 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,750 And your buddy's like, so am I. This is amazing. 435 00:13:20,870 --> 00:13:21,140 Right? 436 00:13:21,260 --> 00:13:22,295 I propose tomorrow as well. 437 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:23,570 And you realize it's the same girl, right? 438 00:13:23,570 --> 00:13:23,750 Yeah. 439 00:13:23,750 --> 00:13:23,930 Yeah. 440 00:13:24,230 --> 00:13:28,695 Um, anyway, so there was at least 30 other companies. 441 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:30,740 30 other companies as you recall. 442 00:13:30,740 --> 00:13:30,800 Yeah. 443 00:13:30,890 --> 00:13:33,080 That had the exact same idea. 444 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:34,820 Now there's a couple ways you can look at that. 445 00:13:35,180 --> 00:13:38,480 Number one, if 30 other companies had the same idea, 446 00:13:38,630 --> 00:13:39,620 it must be a pretty good idea. 447 00:13:39,950 --> 00:13:40,010 Yeah. 448 00:13:40,010 --> 00:13:41,750 Like everybody, like brainstormed it. 449 00:13:41,750 --> 00:13:43,700 They talked to investors, they got investment, they, 450 00:13:43,970 --> 00:13:44,960 they went down the same path. 451 00:13:45,530 --> 00:13:48,140 We launched this thing and it goes. 452 00:13:48,675 --> 00:13:49,695 As I remember it. 453 00:13:49,845 --> 00:13:50,415 Okay. 454 00:13:50,835 --> 00:13:51,765 Like how do you remember it? 455 00:13:52,035 --> 00:13:53,475 Look, it went okay. 456 00:13:55,215 --> 00:13:55,995 It went okay. 457 00:13:56,235 --> 00:13:58,545 It didn't turn into everything we wanted to, neither in 458 00:13:58,545 --> 00:14:00,135 the beginning, nor over time, like there was that 459 00:14:00,135 --> 00:14:02,805 sense that, well, maybe this will mature, and here's the 460 00:14:02,805 --> 00:14:03,525 really interesting thing. 461 00:14:03,525 --> 00:14:04,935 So maybe this will mature. 462 00:14:04,935 --> 00:14:06,585 Maybe the market will come together over time. 463 00:14:07,035 --> 00:14:08,325 That was the linear path. 464 00:14:09,030 --> 00:14:09,300 Right. 465 00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:10,800 And so we could've just said that and we could've 466 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:12,060 just followed that and we could've said, look, this 467 00:14:12,060 --> 00:14:13,199 is just, it's a new market. 468 00:14:13,199 --> 00:14:14,220 It's gonna take time. 469 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:16,319 We realized very early on that one of the things 470 00:14:16,319 --> 00:14:18,090 that people needed was to understand how to use it. 471 00:14:18,090 --> 00:14:20,370 We built the platform and then we let a bunch of people 472 00:14:20,370 --> 00:14:22,050 into a gym who'd never worked out before and they were 473 00:14:22,050 --> 00:14:23,850 dropping weights on their feet would put themselves. 474 00:14:24,420 --> 00:14:27,465 So we built out a personal training, uh, 475 00:14:27,465 --> 00:14:28,770 arm, and that helped. 476 00:14:29,190 --> 00:14:30,120 And that helped. 477 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,100 But the market never really matured. 478 00:14:32,190 --> 00:14:36,840 And so at the same time, we were engaging in those side 479 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:38,670 quests and saying, okay, cool. 480 00:14:38,700 --> 00:14:41,040 We love working with founders and equity crowdfunding was 481 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:42,960 where we wanted to start, but what else can we be doing? 482 00:14:43,530 --> 00:14:45,330 And that was where the side questing began. 483 00:14:45,540 --> 00:14:45,900 Right. 484 00:14:45,900 --> 00:14:50,640 But of those 30 companies will, we're still around how many of 485 00:14:50,820 --> 00:14:52,890 the others, if you had to, and it's the finger in the wind 486 00:14:52,890 --> 00:14:54,690 here, how many of the others are still around that were, that 487 00:14:54,690 --> 00:14:56,220 just stayed equity crowdfunding. 488 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:57,540 I can't name two. 489 00:14:58,410 --> 00:15:00,300 And if there are more, I apologize to, you 490 00:15:00,300 --> 00:15:01,859 know, a lot of this book people are our friends. 491 00:15:01,859 --> 00:15:03,540 I apologize if you're still around. 492 00:15:03,900 --> 00:15:05,819 It's not because I'm disrespecting the fact 493 00:15:05,819 --> 00:15:06,420 that you're still around. 494 00:15:06,420 --> 00:15:07,680 It's because I just don't even pay attention anymore. 495 00:15:07,709 --> 00:15:07,890 Yep. 496 00:15:08,010 --> 00:15:10,349 It just doesn't, it, it became kind of an irrelevant, it's 497 00:15:10,349 --> 00:15:11,280 so off my radar. 498 00:15:11,699 --> 00:15:14,010 And that's coming from a guy who, you know, a team here 499 00:15:14,010 --> 00:15:15,329 who owned that platform. 500 00:15:15,329 --> 00:15:15,479 Right. 501 00:15:15,569 --> 00:15:15,989 Still do. 502 00:15:16,410 --> 00:15:18,510 Which is super important point, right? 503 00:15:18,510 --> 00:15:22,290 A startup without side quests is a startup with 504 00:15:22,290 --> 00:15:23,790 a single point of failure. 505 00:15:24,690 --> 00:15:25,230 Great way to put it. 506 00:15:25,230 --> 00:15:25,290 Yeah. 507 00:15:25,950 --> 00:15:26,170 Single critical point of failure. 508 00:15:26,215 --> 00:15:26,505 Yeah. 509 00:15:26,505 --> 00:15:26,580 Yeah, yeah. 510 00:15:26,580 --> 00:15:26,940 Yeah. 511 00:15:27,300 --> 00:15:29,190 And we managed to avoid that. 512 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:29,760 Right. 513 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:31,680 We, we weren't sure about any of this stuff. 514 00:15:32,505 --> 00:15:35,625 We said, Hey look, this is, this is one vector. 515 00:15:35,625 --> 00:15:37,785 This is one way that we can be helpful to this population 516 00:15:37,785 --> 00:15:38,564 that we want to help. 517 00:15:39,045 --> 00:15:40,694 So let's fall in love with who we want to help, but 518 00:15:40,694 --> 00:15:42,765 let's not fall in love with exactly how we're helping them. 519 00:15:42,765 --> 00:15:44,145 'cause we have no idea how this ends. 520 00:15:44,444 --> 00:15:46,125 Now that we do know how this ends, I'm real glad 521 00:15:46,125 --> 00:15:47,085 we took that course. 522 00:15:48,255 --> 00:15:51,225 So let me explain what happened so folks understand throughout 523 00:15:51,225 --> 00:15:53,655 2012 we're, as you mentioned, we're loading people onto 524 00:15:53,655 --> 00:15:56,355 the platform and we keep running into the same problem. 525 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:58,530 Over and over and over. 526 00:15:58,829 --> 00:16:00,750 People wanna raise money from investors, but 527 00:16:00,750 --> 00:16:02,280 they're sorely unprepared 528 00:16:02,579 --> 00:16:02,850 yes. 529 00:16:02,850 --> 00:16:03,240 To do it. 530 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:04,949 They don't, they don't understand what a pitch deck is. 531 00:16:04,949 --> 00:16:07,319 They don't understand the fundamentals of their business. 532 00:16:07,319 --> 00:16:09,750 They haven't done any product market fit idea 533 00:16:09,750 --> 00:16:11,280 validation, literally nothing. 534 00:16:11,579 --> 00:16:11,819 Right? 535 00:16:11,819 --> 00:16:13,770 They just know they don't have money and they need money. 536 00:16:14,459 --> 00:16:16,890 So we were like, well, where are they going right now? 537 00:16:17,010 --> 00:16:19,470 To fix all those problems, to create their pitch deck, 538 00:16:19,470 --> 00:16:21,660 to go create, you know, all these, these other things. 539 00:16:22,199 --> 00:16:23,430 And we realized nowhere. 540 00:16:24,270 --> 00:16:27,330 And so we went on what I would call an epic side quest, 541 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:32,880 where we went out and we did diligence on 200 companies in 542 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:34,530 the startup space to purchase. 543 00:16:34,980 --> 00:16:37,770 And we ended up, um, not 200, 100, I'm sorry, 544 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:39,750 uh, 100 companies that we ended up doing. 545 00:16:39,780 --> 00:16:40,350 We talked to way 546 00:16:40,350 --> 00:16:41,730 more, it's kinda like the way I feel about how 547 00:16:41,730 --> 00:16:42,390 many children I have. 548 00:16:42,420 --> 00:16:44,220 Some days it's three, some days it's a hundred. 549 00:16:44,730 --> 00:16:45,510 Um, was it a hundred? 550 00:16:45,510 --> 00:16:45,990 Was it 200? 551 00:16:45,990 --> 00:16:46,680 Was it a thousand? 552 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:47,280 Like I, we 553 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:48,390 talked over 200. 554 00:16:48,390 --> 00:16:50,610 We did diligence on a hundred, which is a lot of 555 00:16:50,610 --> 00:16:53,130 companies, and we purchased six venture backed companies. 556 00:16:53,925 --> 00:16:55,694 And they were all within the startup space. 557 00:16:56,145 --> 00:16:59,834 And what we wanted to be able to do was be able to help startups 558 00:16:59,834 --> 00:17:01,635 at each step of this problem. 559 00:17:02,235 --> 00:17:04,935 And so we ended up buying, uh, companies to help people get 560 00:17:04,935 --> 00:17:07,754 customers to help find advisors, you know, all these things. 561 00:17:08,175 --> 00:17:10,335 It was all these things, which became essentially 562 00:17:10,335 --> 00:17:12,315 the genesis of startups.com. 563 00:17:12,464 --> 00:17:12,645 Yeah. 564 00:17:12,885 --> 00:17:16,484 Now, what's really interesting about that to me is we 565 00:17:16,484 --> 00:17:17,895 didn't hesitate for a second. 566 00:17:18,975 --> 00:17:20,085 It's a side quest on this one. 567 00:17:20,175 --> 00:17:20,325 Yep. 568 00:17:20,355 --> 00:17:20,655 Right. 569 00:17:20,655 --> 00:17:20,895 Not at all. 570 00:17:21,225 --> 00:17:23,325 And we had no idea how this would turn out. 571 00:17:23,565 --> 00:17:25,305 It's not like, you know, we were like, oh, well let's 572 00:17:25,305 --> 00:17:27,105 clearly go buy a bunch of companies and blah, blah, blah. 573 00:17:27,495 --> 00:17:28,605 Who are we to do any of this? 574 00:17:29,175 --> 00:17:31,335 And it goes back to our previous episode is we just 575 00:17:31,335 --> 00:17:33,195 weren't afraid to fail, which is our greatest strength. 576 00:17:33,195 --> 00:17:33,560 'cause we just wouldn't. 577 00:17:34,375 --> 00:17:35,305 Charge into everything. 578 00:17:35,514 --> 00:17:38,365 You know something that's really funny about everything 579 00:17:38,365 --> 00:17:41,845 we talk about here is that none of it is new. 580 00:17:42,085 --> 00:17:43,825 Everything you're dealing with right now 581 00:17:43,825 --> 00:17:45,415 has been done a thousand 582 00:17:45,415 --> 00:17:48,504 times before you, which means the answer already exists. 583 00:17:48,504 --> 00:17:50,395 You may just not know it, but that's okay. 584 00:17:50,754 --> 00:17:52,555 That's kind of what we're here to do. 585 00:17:52,615 --> 00:17:55,225 We talk about this stuff on the show, but we actually 586 00:17:55,225 --> 00:17:59,365 solve these problems all dayLong@groups.startups.com. 587 00:17:59,425 --> 00:18:02,725 So if any of this sounds familiar, stop guessing 588 00:18:02,754 --> 00:18:03,745 about what to do. 589 00:18:03,850 --> 00:18:07,120 Let us just give you the answers to the test and be done with it. 590 00:18:07,629 --> 00:18:10,000 I want to throw another one in there because the macro 591 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,300 point here is that side quests are not random, right? 592 00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:14,110 Not when they're done, right? 593 00:18:14,260 --> 00:18:14,500 Yes. 594 00:18:14,860 --> 00:18:15,939 Distractions are random. 595 00:18:16,540 --> 00:18:16,810 Yeah. 596 00:18:16,929 --> 00:18:19,810 They're controlled experiments that have some level of 597 00:18:19,810 --> 00:18:21,580 capped downside, right. 598 00:18:21,580 --> 00:18:23,500 With some intention of upside. 599 00:18:24,584 --> 00:18:26,895 Just to, to make it clear that like it's not that we 600 00:18:26,895 --> 00:18:29,655 were immune to considering things that probably were 601 00:18:29,655 --> 00:18:30,554 outside the wheelhouse. 602 00:18:30,554 --> 00:18:32,264 'cause yes, all these things definitely had a point. 603 00:18:32,625 --> 00:18:35,774 But will, do you remember a moment when, for about a 604 00:18:35,774 --> 00:18:38,145 week we were very excited in the office as we were 605 00:18:38,145 --> 00:18:39,854 considering buying Atari. 606 00:18:40,245 --> 00:18:41,925 Oh my God, I forgot about that. 607 00:18:42,555 --> 00:18:43,395 Oh dude. 608 00:18:43,395 --> 00:18:44,295 I totally forgot. 609 00:18:44,415 --> 00:18:45,585 We were gonna buy Atari. 610 00:18:45,585 --> 00:18:46,830 We were speaking of video games. 611 00:18:46,850 --> 00:18:48,629 We ran, the numbers were Quest. 612 00:18:48,635 --> 00:18:50,955 We almost turned video games into our side Quest. 613 00:18:51,795 --> 00:18:52,274 Wow. 614 00:18:52,274 --> 00:18:54,014 I totally forgot about that. 615 00:18:54,375 --> 00:18:55,575 Yes, we did diligence on Atari. 616 00:18:55,725 --> 00:18:56,685 Oh my God, I totally forgot about that. 617 00:18:56,685 --> 00:18:57,105 Yep. 618 00:18:57,165 --> 00:18:57,495 Yep. 619 00:18:57,885 --> 00:19:00,045 For those of you who don't neither know nor care. 620 00:19:00,255 --> 00:19:01,725 There was a, a point in time, this had to 621 00:19:01,725 --> 00:19:03,225 been like 20 13, 20 14. 622 00:19:03,525 --> 00:19:03,675 Yeah. 623 00:19:03,675 --> 00:19:06,045 Where Atari, the famous brand, like the actual, like, you 624 00:19:06,045 --> 00:19:09,225 know, one of the first home consoles was going up for sale. 625 00:19:09,225 --> 00:19:10,335 It was going bankrupt, essentially. 626 00:19:10,335 --> 00:19:10,455 Yes. 627 00:19:10,815 --> 00:19:13,095 And, and the assets were gonna go up for sale and, 628 00:19:13,095 --> 00:19:15,405 and they were gonna go for ones of millions of dollars. 629 00:19:15,405 --> 00:19:15,465 Yeah. 630 00:19:15,495 --> 00:19:18,105 Which even back then was a lot because it was just 631 00:19:18,105 --> 00:19:19,335 basically the brand, right? 632 00:19:19,335 --> 00:19:19,395 Yeah. 633 00:19:19,395 --> 00:19:21,195 There wasn't, I remember they owned some games 634 00:19:21,195 --> 00:19:22,545 and stuff like that, but. 635 00:19:22,935 --> 00:19:25,725 As children of the eighties, we were like, are you 636 00:19:25,935 --> 00:19:26,385 gotta be kidding me. 637 00:19:26,385 --> 00:19:26,445 The 638 00:19:26,445 --> 00:19:30,345 nostalgia element alone was just like, if I had lived 639 00:19:30,345 --> 00:19:33,075 one day with that business card, I'd have led a better 640 00:19:33,075 --> 00:19:35,745 life in some ways, you know, just, just for the fun of it. 641 00:19:35,745 --> 00:19:36,105 Right. 642 00:19:36,255 --> 00:19:38,265 But it was a complete deviation. 643 00:19:38,265 --> 00:19:38,445 Right. 644 00:19:38,445 --> 00:19:39,315 Talk about distraction. 645 00:19:39,315 --> 00:19:39,495 Oh yeah. 646 00:19:39,765 --> 00:19:40,215 Talk about even 647 00:19:40,215 --> 00:19:43,580 we were like, dude, this is pretty far off, off the park. 648 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,335 Uh, but yeah, so at some point we even considered 649 00:19:46,335 --> 00:19:46,845 buying at Target. 650 00:19:47,235 --> 00:19:47,685 So. 651 00:19:48,030 --> 00:19:50,580 Within that though, within these, these side quests, I, 652 00:19:50,730 --> 00:19:52,890 I wanna point out more than the outcome, which is, you 653 00:19:52,890 --> 00:19:54,840 know, it helped kind of drive what became startups do com. 654 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:55,355 Yeah, yeah. 655 00:19:55,590 --> 00:19:58,470 I also wanna point, we learned so much Oh my God. 656 00:19:58,470 --> 00:19:59,400 From the Quest. 657 00:19:59,430 --> 00:19:59,760 Yes. 658 00:19:59,940 --> 00:20:00,300 The quest 659 00:20:00,300 --> 00:20:00,480 itself. 660 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:01,050 From the Quest. 661 00:20:01,050 --> 00:20:01,170 Right. 662 00:20:01,260 --> 00:20:03,090 Not the outcome, not the treasure at the end. 663 00:20:03,090 --> 00:20:03,960 'cause sometimes there wasn't, right? 664 00:20:04,350 --> 00:20:04,590 Yeah. 665 00:20:04,650 --> 00:20:05,075 The quest itself. 666 00:20:05,970 --> 00:20:06,750 You remember this part? 667 00:20:06,750 --> 00:20:09,090 So I moved my family out to San Francisco. 668 00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:09,390 Yes. 669 00:20:09,420 --> 00:20:09,780 Right. 670 00:20:09,990 --> 00:20:12,600 And every day I'm reporting back to you guys of all these 671 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,120 meetings I'm having, I'm gonna be just meetings nonstop. 672 00:20:15,870 --> 00:20:15,930 Yeah. 673 00:20:15,930 --> 00:20:17,040 With everybody I can meet with. 674 00:20:17,310 --> 00:20:19,410 And I, and we're learning so much from this. 675 00:20:19,410 --> 00:20:19,590 Yes. 676 00:20:19,620 --> 00:20:22,590 We're like, Hey, do you know, like this company's, you know, 677 00:20:22,590 --> 00:20:24,930 growing at this rate, or this company's failing completely. 678 00:20:24,930 --> 00:20:28,320 Or like Uhhuh, we got so much intel from this Quest. 679 00:20:28,410 --> 00:20:28,910 Intel, yeah, yeah, yeah. 680 00:20:28,980 --> 00:20:30,630 As to what our market looked like. 681 00:20:30,630 --> 00:20:33,480 And, and Ryan, I would argue, I would argue that. 682 00:20:33,775 --> 00:20:36,805 Some of that intel serves us to this day? 683 00:20:37,165 --> 00:20:37,405 Explain, 684 00:20:37,405 --> 00:20:38,305 no, absolutely. 685 00:20:38,485 --> 00:20:38,695 Yeah. 686 00:20:38,695 --> 00:20:40,015 You don't have to argue that at all. 687 00:20:40,045 --> 00:20:40,675 No argument here. 688 00:20:40,675 --> 00:20:40,975 Well, 689 00:20:41,365 --> 00:20:41,425 a 690 00:20:41,425 --> 00:20:42,115 hundred percent. 691 00:20:42,115 --> 00:20:44,215 We, um, we learned a lot about what not to do, 692 00:20:44,695 --> 00:20:44,935 Abe. 693 00:20:45,145 --> 00:20:45,565 Absolutely. 694 00:20:45,565 --> 00:20:46,830 And going in on these quests as valuable. 695 00:20:47,625 --> 00:20:48,525 Yep, exactly. 696 00:20:48,525 --> 00:20:50,565 I was like, not gonna go into that business. 697 00:20:50,565 --> 00:20:53,295 Like businesses we thought were incredible, like Atari. 698 00:20:53,625 --> 00:20:58,275 Uh, we, we were like, we talked to the founders and, you know, 699 00:20:58,275 --> 00:21:00,105 we're very founder forward. 700 00:21:00,105 --> 00:21:02,355 So when we talk to founders about buying their business, 701 00:21:02,565 --> 00:21:04,545 we don't sit there and, and like grill them like a, 702 00:21:04,575 --> 00:21:07,335 like a private equity firm with or, or an m and a firm. 703 00:21:07,605 --> 00:21:09,975 We sit on their side of the table, and I've done this a 704 00:21:09,975 --> 00:21:12,765 million times, particularly with the companies that we acquired. 705 00:21:13,530 --> 00:21:16,379 And we say, if I'm in your shoes right now as a 706 00:21:16,379 --> 00:21:18,030 founder, here are my options. 707 00:21:18,030 --> 00:21:19,290 You could sell to us. 708 00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:19,440 Mm-hmm. 709 00:21:19,679 --> 00:21:20,940 And that might be an okay outcome. 710 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,550 I, I'm not telling you it's the best outcome, it's an outcome, 711 00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:25,530 but here are your other options. 712 00:21:25,919 --> 00:21:30,330 And by doing that, by putting ourselves in the shoes of all 713 00:21:30,330 --> 00:21:33,510 these other founders, we got to, we got to get a firsthand 714 00:21:33,510 --> 00:21:36,540 view of how all these other markets actually worked. 715 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:37,129 Right, 716 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:37,580 right. 717 00:21:37,669 --> 00:21:39,590 And again, we were talking to lots of of funded 718 00:21:39,590 --> 00:21:43,189 companies, like venture funded companies, and actually I 719 00:21:43,189 --> 00:21:45,169 made a lot of great friends outta this process as well. 720 00:21:45,169 --> 00:21:49,189 But a really fascinating part was we got more market intel. 721 00:21:49,965 --> 00:21:53,504 As to how every facet of our business could work. 722 00:21:54,345 --> 00:21:57,975 And I think 18 months, then we could have possibly gathered 723 00:21:58,185 --> 00:22:00,165 through, you know, as much research as we could ever, 724 00:22:00,165 --> 00:22:01,485 ever bought or done ourselves. 725 00:22:01,490 --> 00:22:02,295 Yeah, yeah, for sure. 726 00:22:02,475 --> 00:22:05,445 It was a crazy force multiplier in terms of, of the 727 00:22:05,445 --> 00:22:07,845 understanding of the markets and where things were going, 728 00:22:07,845 --> 00:22:08,865 where things weren't going. 729 00:22:09,254 --> 00:22:10,215 It was incredible, man. 730 00:22:10,305 --> 00:22:12,225 It's interesting, but I, I, I was trying to think 731 00:22:12,225 --> 00:22:15,615 of, you know, side quests as insurance policies 732 00:22:15,615 --> 00:22:17,655 that we pay for with Yes. 733 00:22:17,655 --> 00:22:17,665 Time. 734 00:22:18,140 --> 00:22:18,920 It's all cost us. 735 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:19,550 It was time. 736 00:22:19,670 --> 00:22:22,700 And I'd argue if you can't afford that level 737 00:22:22,700 --> 00:22:25,190 of exploration, you definitely can't afford to 738 00:22:25,190 --> 00:22:26,540 be wrong about anything. 739 00:22:26,630 --> 00:22:26,930 Right. 740 00:22:26,930 --> 00:22:28,370 And so the only way you're gonna find out about things 741 00:22:28,370 --> 00:22:29,510 is that exploration, right? 742 00:22:29,510 --> 00:22:31,100 So it's a bit of a catch 22 there. 743 00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:34,250 You have to find a way to be able to afford this 744 00:22:34,250 --> 00:22:36,500 level of exploration, this level of curiosity. 745 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:36,800 Okay. 746 00:22:36,860 --> 00:22:37,340 Right, right. 747 00:22:37,340 --> 00:22:40,940 So if, if we're proposing a side quest to our 748 00:22:40,940 --> 00:22:42,560 Ory co-founder, right? 749 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,590 Who who is, is, you know, say the straight and narrower uhhuh, 750 00:22:45,590 --> 00:22:47,420 an advisor, investor, whomever. 751 00:22:48,014 --> 00:22:51,885 I think part of that argument is simply there's a good 752 00:22:51,885 --> 00:22:53,955 chance it won't succeed per se. 753 00:22:54,135 --> 00:22:54,465 Sure. 754 00:22:54,554 --> 00:22:55,899 But here's what I think we'll learn in the failing. 755 00:22:56,550 --> 00:22:56,880 Right. 756 00:22:57,150 --> 00:22:59,400 Here's what I wanna unpack and explore. 757 00:22:59,700 --> 00:23:02,280 That will tell us without question, that 758 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:03,480 is not the path for us. 759 00:23:03,630 --> 00:23:04,200 Sure, sure, sure. 760 00:23:04,470 --> 00:23:07,590 And I think that part of the explanation is often lost 761 00:23:07,620 --> 00:23:09,780 'cause it's like, Hey, I wanna try this other thing. 762 00:23:10,140 --> 00:23:12,720 And this ornery co-founder is like, well, that won't succeed. 763 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:13,950 Probably not. 764 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:14,520 Yeah. 765 00:23:14,580 --> 00:23:16,950 But, but here's what I'm hoping to learn in that 766 00:23:16,950 --> 00:23:19,650 process that will help our current path succeed. 767 00:23:19,860 --> 00:23:22,170 Or again, inform if, if this is the current path. 768 00:23:22,470 --> 00:23:22,770 Yeah. 769 00:23:22,835 --> 00:23:24,120 And, and I think that's important, right? 770 00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:26,520 I think that that the insight, the learning, the, the, 771 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,490 the kind of the, the what if path you wanna go down. 772 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,230 I think that is the treasure, right? 773 00:23:31,230 --> 00:23:32,820 I think that's the important measurable. 774 00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:34,620 If other things come out of it, right, there's other 775 00:23:34,620 --> 00:23:35,910 outcomes in their side, great. 776 00:23:35,910 --> 00:23:37,770 But I think that the kind of the, what am I 777 00:23:37,770 --> 00:23:38,580 trying to understand? 778 00:23:38,580 --> 00:23:40,860 What am I trying to learn is the actual treasure. 779 00:23:40,860 --> 00:23:43,920 If it doesn't have one of those, then it's probably 780 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,800 not a side quest, it's just procrastination. 781 00:23:47,219 --> 00:23:48,540 Around what you actually should be doing. 782 00:23:48,719 --> 00:23:50,129 I wanna throw another one out there, and this 783 00:23:50,129 --> 00:23:51,750 is a little bit of side quest to this discussion. 784 00:23:52,199 --> 00:23:55,709 One of the most popular side quests that I see with startups 785 00:23:56,429 --> 00:23:57,959 is becoming a services business. 786 00:23:58,379 --> 00:23:58,530 Right. 787 00:23:58,530 --> 00:23:59,459 You and I see it all the time. 788 00:23:59,729 --> 00:24:00,000 Yes. 789 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:00,300 Right? 790 00:24:00,540 --> 00:24:01,860 It's we're trying to build a product. 791 00:24:02,100 --> 00:24:04,050 Product isn't ready, market adoption isn't there. 792 00:24:04,050 --> 00:24:06,510 We're doing have the customers, so we kind of spin off 793 00:24:06,540 --> 00:24:07,979 this services business Yep. 794 00:24:07,979 --> 00:24:10,080 To kind of just do that work for the client 795 00:24:10,590 --> 00:24:11,760 to generate some cash. 796 00:24:11,969 --> 00:24:12,120 Yeah. 797 00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:14,580 In order to hopefully get back to the product business. 798 00:24:15,495 --> 00:24:17,115 And I hear pushback on this all the time. 799 00:24:17,325 --> 00:24:18,315 Well, that's not the product. 800 00:24:18,315 --> 00:24:19,545 That's just the services business. 801 00:24:19,845 --> 00:24:20,145 Dude. 802 00:24:20,145 --> 00:24:22,185 If it pays the bills, it is the business. 803 00:24:22,185 --> 00:24:22,620 Yeah, it is the business. 804 00:24:22,620 --> 00:24:23,940 That's how business work. 805 00:24:24,015 --> 00:24:25,125 That's duck quest. 806 00:24:25,130 --> 00:24:25,380 Yeah. 807 00:24:25,385 --> 00:24:25,635 Yeah. 808 00:24:25,635 --> 00:24:27,765 That is the, yeah, the pay the bills is the quest. 809 00:24:27,765 --> 00:24:28,005 Right. 810 00:24:28,035 --> 00:24:30,615 How we get there is, is the question, and I bring 811 00:24:30,615 --> 00:24:33,525 this up because for a lot of startups, when we talk 812 00:24:33,525 --> 00:24:34,875 about that non-linear path. 813 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,730 They also think that income should only come from exactly 814 00:24:38,730 --> 00:24:40,950 what we built and have in front of us right now. 815 00:24:41,340 --> 00:24:41,460 Yeah. 816 00:24:41,460 --> 00:24:41,970 Incorrect. 817 00:24:42,150 --> 00:24:44,670 Because you get $2 for every one of those dollars when it's 818 00:24:44,670 --> 00:24:45,810 time to pay the bills, right? 819 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:47,700 Yeah, exactly. 820 00:24:47,700 --> 00:24:48,240 They're worth more. 821 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:48,510 Right. 822 00:24:48,510 --> 00:24:51,720 Like if we could explain how many businesses have taken 823 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,900 the path of like, the reason they're there today is because 824 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,510 they did 20 different things to keep the bills paid. 825 00:24:57,570 --> 00:24:57,720 Yeah. 826 00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,280 You know, our most famous example, of 827 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:00,690 course is the Airbnb. 828 00:25:00,885 --> 00:25:03,855 Thing where Brian Chesky famously, and, and by the 829 00:25:03,855 --> 00:25:05,175 way, this story is sold. 830 00:25:05,175 --> 00:25:06,825 I don't even know if it's true anymore, but for those that 831 00:25:06,825 --> 00:25:08,835 haven't heard it a thousand times, the super short 832 00:25:08,835 --> 00:25:11,985 version Chesky was running out of money for Airbnb. 833 00:25:12,375 --> 00:25:15,165 He decided that had this crazy stunt where he sold, 834 00:25:15,465 --> 00:25:18,465 uh, serial, he sold Captain McCain's in Obama owes 835 00:25:18,465 --> 00:25:19,395 during those elections. 836 00:25:19,515 --> 00:25:23,535 An idea how old this story is now, if I recall, like $40,000. 837 00:25:23,715 --> 00:25:23,985 Yeah. 838 00:25:24,070 --> 00:25:25,845 It, it was enough to keep going. 839 00:25:25,845 --> 00:25:26,625 That's what I remember. 840 00:25:26,625 --> 00:25:27,075 I don't remember how 841 00:25:27,075 --> 00:25:27,945 much you made today. 842 00:25:27,945 --> 00:25:28,215 We the on. 843 00:25:29,565 --> 00:25:31,005 By the way, this is told by him, right? 844 00:25:31,005 --> 00:25:32,355 So this isn't me making up the story. 845 00:25:32,355 --> 00:25:35,175 In fact, it's told by him on our site, like, uh, on 846 00:25:35,175 --> 00:25:36,465 an interview on our site. 847 00:25:36,465 --> 00:25:37,695 So hopefully it's true. 848 00:25:38,115 --> 00:25:41,745 But think of how Fri random that side Quest was. 849 00:25:42,435 --> 00:25:44,535 And, and we've done whole episodes on this, how. 850 00:25:44,795 --> 00:25:46,355 Making money is not a side quest. 851 00:25:46,625 --> 00:25:48,125 It's like however you have to do it. 852 00:25:48,335 --> 00:25:50,135 Staying alive is not a side quest. 853 00:25:50,140 --> 00:25:50,280 Right. 854 00:25:50,405 --> 00:25:51,635 It's the pavement for the runway. 855 00:25:51,665 --> 00:25:52,175 You need it. 856 00:25:52,595 --> 00:25:52,895 Yeah. 857 00:25:52,895 --> 00:25:54,905 I mean, to the point now where like if somebody tells me 858 00:25:54,905 --> 00:25:57,365 they're building a software, one of my first questions 859 00:25:57,365 --> 00:25:59,225 is, okay, how much have you delivered as a service? 860 00:25:59,225 --> 00:26:00,485 Like, have you done this for people? 861 00:26:00,515 --> 00:26:00,695 Yeah. 862 00:26:00,695 --> 00:26:01,805 Do you know what they need? 863 00:26:02,165 --> 00:26:03,155 Because if not. 864 00:26:03,550 --> 00:26:06,340 Prepare for a whole shit ton of side quests to come your 865 00:26:06,340 --> 00:26:08,080 way because you're gonna have to do them all to figure out 866 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:09,100 what people actually need. 867 00:26:09,430 --> 00:26:09,610 Right? 868 00:26:09,790 --> 00:26:09,879 Yeah. 869 00:26:09,879 --> 00:26:11,919 I love doing the service first because it teaches you 870 00:26:11,919 --> 00:26:14,350 so much about, so much about what people actually need. 871 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,050 For me, product comes down to three things. 872 00:26:17,409 --> 00:26:20,230 Proven proprietary process, right? 873 00:26:20,230 --> 00:26:22,180 The three Ps of building an actual product. 874 00:26:22,330 --> 00:26:24,399 If you don't have a proven proprietary process, and 875 00:26:24,399 --> 00:26:25,930 if you're building software that you've never delivered 876 00:26:25,930 --> 00:26:28,510 service for, you can't, you're gonna run into P four. 877 00:26:28,795 --> 00:26:31,675 Which is, which just means we built the wrong shit first. 878 00:26:31,675 --> 00:26:31,855 Right. 879 00:26:31,855 --> 00:26:35,185 And obviously, so, so yeah, I just, at this point, I treat 880 00:26:35,185 --> 00:26:39,175 service as a, not as an optional step or a side quest, but as the 881 00:26:39,175 --> 00:26:42,385 very beginning of what you're gonna do to go build product. 882 00:26:42,595 --> 00:26:44,754 I remember years and years and years ago, the base 883 00:26:44,754 --> 00:26:47,245 camp guys like way, it was like 20 years ago, right? 884 00:26:47,635 --> 00:26:51,085 They used to run these sessions, I think in Chicago that 885 00:26:51,085 --> 00:26:52,075 were just training sessions. 886 00:26:52,135 --> 00:26:52,345 Yeah. 887 00:26:52,345 --> 00:26:52,735 And, and they would. 888 00:26:53,070 --> 00:26:55,740 They basically charge an arm and a leg form and run 'em in. 889 00:26:56,070 --> 00:26:58,110 And at one point they got asked, uh, the founders, 890 00:26:58,110 --> 00:26:59,669 the co-founders, why are you doing this? 891 00:26:59,669 --> 00:27:01,020 Like, you guys are a software company. 892 00:27:01,230 --> 00:27:03,120 Why are you running these sessions and like doing 893 00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:04,860 event events, business, essentially uhhuh. 894 00:27:05,159 --> 00:27:07,530 And they, they looked at, it was like, it makes money. 895 00:27:07,855 --> 00:27:08,014 Yeah. 896 00:27:10,020 --> 00:27:12,149 You remember why we built software business, right. 897 00:27:12,270 --> 00:27:13,409 This does the same thing. 898 00:27:13,860 --> 00:27:13,980 Yeah. 899 00:27:13,980 --> 00:27:14,699 Makes money. 900 00:27:14,850 --> 00:27:16,710 So I think a lot of people though will look at these 901 00:27:16,710 --> 00:27:19,230 side quests and they'll be like, oh, that's just a pivot. 902 00:27:19,514 --> 00:27:20,895 I think that's a huge mistake. 903 00:27:20,895 --> 00:27:23,145 I think that's a total misclassification 904 00:27:23,564 --> 00:27:24,465 of the side quest. 905 00:27:24,885 --> 00:27:28,514 A side quest is an exploration that might lead to a pivot. 906 00:27:29,145 --> 00:27:29,294 Yeah. 907 00:27:29,294 --> 00:27:31,665 A pivot is when you figured out that the side quest 908 00:27:31,665 --> 00:27:32,475 is the right answer. 909 00:27:32,479 --> 00:27:32,560 Yeah. 910 00:27:32,564 --> 00:27:32,745 Yeah. 911 00:27:32,745 --> 00:27:34,125 And you change the whole business. 912 00:27:34,185 --> 00:27:34,425 Yes. 913 00:27:34,425 --> 00:27:34,665 Right. 914 00:27:34,965 --> 00:27:35,084 Yeah. 915 00:27:35,084 --> 00:27:36,975 I wanna make sure these two things don't get 916 00:27:37,004 --> 00:27:38,114 get pushed hand in hand. 917 00:27:38,925 --> 00:27:40,965 Us going to San Francisco and looking for other 918 00:27:40,965 --> 00:27:42,584 businesses is a side quest. 919 00:27:42,614 --> 00:27:42,885 Yeah. 920 00:27:43,034 --> 00:27:45,465 Us changing the whole business to startups.com 921 00:27:45,584 --> 00:27:45,764 Right. 922 00:27:45,764 --> 00:27:46,334 Is a pivot. 923 00:27:46,335 --> 00:27:46,935 Right, right. 924 00:27:46,935 --> 00:27:47,175 Will. 925 00:27:47,175 --> 00:27:48,765 I bought lawyers.com this morning. 926 00:27:48,765 --> 00:27:49,665 We're a new business now. 927 00:27:49,695 --> 00:27:50,325 That's a pivot. 928 00:27:50,835 --> 00:27:51,405 Right, right, right. 929 00:27:51,405 --> 00:27:51,820 Shitty pivot. 930 00:27:51,820 --> 00:27:52,020 Um. 931 00:27:52,785 --> 00:27:54,315 If you think about it, we're sitting here on 932 00:27:54,315 --> 00:27:57,045 this podcast, which was essentially a side question. 933 00:27:57,045 --> 00:27:58,695 It, do you recall how this whole thing started? 934 00:27:58,695 --> 00:28:00,315 Like, do you remember when we started like kicking this off? 935 00:28:00,555 --> 00:28:01,635 It didn't go that well, by the way. 936 00:28:02,955 --> 00:28:04,875 You're talking about the, uh, you know what, we should 937 00:28:04,875 --> 00:28:06,135 auction this off at some point. 938 00:28:06,135 --> 00:28:08,595 Will the three first episodes that we'll never see the light 939 00:28:08,595 --> 00:28:10,845 of day, where it'll never see light of day by talking 940 00:28:10,875 --> 00:28:14,535 about the weather and like it, it was all so stilted. 941 00:28:14,535 --> 00:28:15,705 Oh my God, it was so bad. 942 00:28:15,735 --> 00:28:16,660 We had no idea what we were doing. 943 00:28:17,490 --> 00:28:20,160 Like we, we thought like what a talk show would be, 944 00:28:20,250 --> 00:28:21,450 and it was just not at all. 945 00:28:21,455 --> 00:28:23,310 It was done and it made no sense whatsoever. 946 00:28:23,670 --> 00:28:23,790 Right. 947 00:28:23,790 --> 00:28:26,730 But let me put it in this framing for our podcast, which 948 00:28:26,879 --> 00:28:28,020 has how many episodes now? 949 00:28:28,350 --> 00:28:30,750 We are shooting 3 27 today, buddy. 950 00:28:31,350 --> 00:28:31,620 Damn. 951 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:32,070 Okay. 952 00:28:32,129 --> 00:28:33,060 So that's a lot of episodes. 953 00:28:33,060 --> 00:28:33,520 That's a lot of has. 954 00:28:34,379 --> 00:28:37,379 One of our best conversion tools for these wonderful folks 955 00:28:37,379 --> 00:28:39,720 that listen, you know, you build a relationship with us, 956 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,050 you get an a sense for who we are, and maybe you buy some 957 00:28:43,050 --> 00:28:44,100 of our stuff, maybe you don't. 958 00:28:44,370 --> 00:28:46,139 Honestly, we're gonna, we're gonna produce 959 00:28:46,139 --> 00:28:47,220 the podcast either way. 960 00:28:47,370 --> 00:28:47,610 Exactly. 961 00:28:47,610 --> 00:28:48,300 Which is the point. 962 00:28:48,570 --> 00:28:48,960 Yes. 963 00:28:49,020 --> 00:28:49,240 When we. 964 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:50,740 First started doing this. 965 00:28:50,770 --> 00:28:53,410 It's just something that Ryan and I wanted to do. 966 00:28:53,620 --> 00:28:55,840 It wasn't, Hey, this is gonna be a great conversion tool. 967 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:56,800 Like that'd be great. 968 00:28:56,890 --> 00:28:59,320 Obviously we weren't even entirely sure what 969 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:00,310 all the topics would be, 970 00:29:00,730 --> 00:29:00,970 right. 971 00:29:00,970 --> 00:29:03,100 We just hit record, went poorly at first. 972 00:29:03,105 --> 00:29:03,255 Still learn. 973 00:29:03,885 --> 00:29:06,295 Yeah, they're still figuring it out, but. 974 00:29:06,575 --> 00:29:08,345 Listen, this was a side quest. 975 00:29:08,375 --> 00:29:10,745 This side quest was, you know, we're, we had plenty of other 976 00:29:10,745 --> 00:29:11,645 things we were working on. 977 00:29:11,645 --> 00:29:14,915 We weren't short of things to do, but we took this random 978 00:29:14,915 --> 00:29:18,905 side quest as the podcast and it wound up becoming like a 979 00:29:18,905 --> 00:29:21,815 really integral part of our business, both from, again, 980 00:29:21,815 --> 00:29:26,225 from attracting customers, but also from developing content. 981 00:29:26,225 --> 00:29:27,360 I mean, it has so many legs. 982 00:29:27,630 --> 00:29:27,920 Yeah. 983 00:29:28,270 --> 00:29:31,775 Also, just go back to like the learnings that we took away. 984 00:29:32,565 --> 00:29:36,015 From the 18 months of, of exploration in San Francisco, 985 00:29:36,015 --> 00:29:37,215 all those conversations you had. 986 00:29:37,725 --> 00:29:37,905 Yeah. 987 00:29:37,905 --> 00:29:40,815 Think about all of the things that we have come to more 988 00:29:40,815 --> 00:29:43,485 concrete understanding of and better ability to share and 989 00:29:43,485 --> 00:29:46,065 talk to founders about, because we do this every week, right? 990 00:29:46,275 --> 00:29:48,855 This has become more than just a part of the business 991 00:29:48,855 --> 00:29:49,485 and more than part of it. 992 00:29:49,485 --> 00:29:49,605 Right. 993 00:29:49,695 --> 00:29:51,525 This is a part of life for me at this point, right? 994 00:29:51,525 --> 00:29:52,305 I look forward to this. 995 00:29:52,305 --> 00:29:53,295 Every week we do this. 996 00:29:53,325 --> 00:29:53,505 Yep. 997 00:29:53,595 --> 00:29:55,050 It's something important at so many levels. 998 00:29:55,834 --> 00:29:57,395 And, and it's taught us a ton. 999 00:29:57,395 --> 00:29:57,544 Right? 1000 00:29:57,544 --> 00:29:59,584 These were obviously all ideas that you had. 1001 00:29:59,584 --> 00:30:01,534 I had, and we've discussed. 1002 00:30:01,865 --> 00:30:01,925 Yeah. 1003 00:30:01,925 --> 00:30:02,014 Yep. 1004 00:30:02,014 --> 00:30:04,235 But like through that discussion, these things 1005 00:30:04,235 --> 00:30:06,665 become a little bit more like a product, right? 1006 00:30:06,665 --> 00:30:07,955 It becomes advice we can deliver. 1007 00:30:07,955 --> 00:30:10,024 It becomes help we can give at scale, right? 1008 00:30:10,024 --> 00:30:10,865 And in person and everything. 1009 00:30:10,865 --> 00:30:13,685 And so it's just, again, like we never would've 1010 00:30:13,685 --> 00:30:14,584 been able to see that. 1011 00:30:14,820 --> 00:30:17,219 Had we not tried it and had we not 1012 00:30:17,219 --> 00:30:17,610 exactly 1013 00:30:17,879 --> 00:30:20,370 keep trying it after the third episode because if 1014 00:30:20,370 --> 00:30:21,870 we'd only waited on the merits of the first three 1015 00:30:21,870 --> 00:30:23,969 episodes, uh, we definitely wouldn't be talking today. 1016 00:30:24,209 --> 00:30:25,199 Zero listeners. 1017 00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:26,580 Uh, it's, it's funny. 1018 00:30:26,580 --> 00:30:29,070 So I think for a lot of people, like they get nervous 1019 00:30:29,070 --> 00:30:31,320 about the side quest because they feel it's a distraction. 1020 00:30:31,709 --> 00:30:33,895 They feel it's tantamount to a pivot and pivot. 1021 00:30:33,899 --> 00:30:34,889 Pivot is different. 1022 00:30:34,889 --> 00:30:36,719 Pivot's like, dude, we're putting all our eggs 1023 00:30:36,719 --> 00:30:37,590 in a different basket. 1024 00:30:37,929 --> 00:30:38,439 Not to pivot 1025 00:30:38,445 --> 00:30:38,925 is not a marriage. 1026 00:30:39,219 --> 00:30:40,000 A pivot is a marriage. 1027 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:41,770 A side quest is a first date, right? 1028 00:30:41,770 --> 00:30:41,889 Like 1029 00:30:41,889 --> 00:30:42,340 exactly. 1030 00:30:42,340 --> 00:30:43,929 Side quest is we're gonna go figure this out. 1031 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:45,070 Yeah, exactly. 1032 00:30:45,070 --> 00:30:47,770 And so I think for a lot of folks, when they see those 1033 00:30:47,770 --> 00:30:49,360 side quests, Hey, let's try something else out. 1034 00:30:49,449 --> 00:30:50,169 They get nervous. 1035 00:30:50,649 --> 00:30:51,459 Understandably. 1036 00:30:51,639 --> 00:30:53,080 They get nervous and say, oh, we should be only 1037 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:53,919 to be focusing on this. 1038 00:30:53,919 --> 00:30:57,129 It's like maybe, and not every side quest is a good side quest. 1039 00:30:57,129 --> 00:30:58,330 Most will fail. 1040 00:30:58,419 --> 00:30:59,620 Most side quests will fail. 1041 00:30:59,649 --> 00:30:59,830 Yeah, 1042 00:30:59,834 --> 00:30:59,844 yeah, 1043 00:30:59,919 --> 00:31:00,219 right? 1044 00:31:00,429 --> 00:31:00,639 Yep. 1045 00:31:00,669 --> 00:31:01,659 But again, that's okay 1046 00:31:02,409 --> 00:31:03,730 because that's information. 1047 00:31:04,225 --> 00:31:06,085 That's information because otherwise, like what I 1048 00:31:06,085 --> 00:31:08,485 would say, if you're not side questing and you are 1049 00:31:08,485 --> 00:31:10,255 at a point where like, you know, it's not working, so 1050 00:31:10,255 --> 00:31:11,215 we have to make a change. 1051 00:31:11,215 --> 00:31:13,555 Let's say, let's stick to the pivot and and side 1052 00:31:13,555 --> 00:31:14,485 quest thing here, right? 1053 00:31:14,485 --> 00:31:17,755 So we don't wanna pivot on vibes, right? 1054 00:31:17,995 --> 00:31:19,705 We don't wanna pivot based on the fact that, look, this 1055 00:31:19,705 --> 00:31:20,365 doesn't seem to be working. 1056 00:31:20,365 --> 00:31:23,905 Let's try this instead entirely, we can side quest 1057 00:31:23,905 --> 00:31:25,075 our way into evidence. 1058 00:31:25,709 --> 00:31:27,354 Then we can decide whether we absolute. 1059 00:31:27,354 --> 00:31:29,310 The side quest is how we earn the right to pivot. 1060 00:31:29,699 --> 00:31:29,939 Right? 1061 00:31:29,939 --> 00:31:30,389 I agree. 1062 00:31:30,570 --> 00:31:32,100 And look to put it, no. 1063 00:31:32,100 --> 00:31:34,115 In certain terms, it takes balls to side quest. 1064 00:31:34,815 --> 00:31:35,075 It does. 1065 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:36,600 It takes courage to explore. 1066 00:31:36,810 --> 00:31:37,020 Yeah. 1067 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:37,380 Right. 1068 00:31:37,380 --> 00:31:37,830 I mean it does. 1069 00:31:38,130 --> 00:31:40,140 It's easy to say, no, I don't wanna do anything else. 1070 00:31:40,140 --> 00:31:41,250 I just wanna focus on this. 1071 00:31:41,250 --> 00:31:41,970 I don't say easy. 1072 00:31:42,210 --> 00:31:44,640 That also requires discipline, but when you 1073 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,010 say, Hey, I might be wrong. 1074 00:31:47,010 --> 00:31:47,100 Mm-hmm. 1075 00:31:47,460 --> 00:31:49,620 Which I think is a big part is you mentioned ego a few 1076 00:31:49,620 --> 00:31:53,490 minutes ago, I think to be able to say, Hey, the current 1077 00:31:53,490 --> 00:31:54,930 main quest right now Yep. 1078 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:56,590 The, the focal point where we're at. 1079 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,600 I might be wrong, and it's okay to have conviction. 1080 00:32:00,780 --> 00:32:02,850 It's okay to show up in your meetings and say, you know what? 1081 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:04,860 I believe in this product so much. 1082 00:32:04,860 --> 00:32:06,750 I don't wanna change course whatsoever. 1083 00:32:06,750 --> 00:32:09,330 I, I wanna, uh, stay on it, which is okay. 1084 00:32:09,335 --> 00:32:09,595 Right? 1085 00:32:09,595 --> 00:32:09,755 Yeah. 1086 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,620 Which is okay, but it takes a huge amount of courage 1087 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:18,240 to say, I genuinely believe this is the path, but I'm 1088 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,070 not afraid to find out. 1089 00:32:20,070 --> 00:32:20,230 It's not. 1090 00:32:21,105 --> 00:32:22,875 You and I go into a meeting and, and you know, often, 1091 00:32:22,875 --> 00:32:25,035 we'll, we'll say this when we're we're in this discussion, 1092 00:32:25,275 --> 00:32:27,375 we'll say, can we start by agreeing that none of us knows? 1093 00:32:27,465 --> 00:32:28,530 Yeah, nobody knows, right? 1094 00:32:28,605 --> 00:32:29,775 Nobody knows the actual answer. 1095 00:32:29,865 --> 00:32:32,295 And then there's a few ways to go and find that out, right? 1096 00:32:32,295 --> 00:32:34,515 We can stick to a linear path, hope for the best, 1097 00:32:34,515 --> 00:32:37,755 and find out what time tells us, or we can go side quest 1098 00:32:37,755 --> 00:32:38,895 and quickly get answers. 1099 00:32:39,330 --> 00:32:40,950 I think that's part of the construction of the side. 1100 00:32:40,950 --> 00:32:44,430 Quest for me is thinking of it in terms of like, does 1101 00:32:44,430 --> 00:32:47,730 this allow us to more quickly understand the, the context? 1102 00:32:47,730 --> 00:32:49,740 Does this allow us to more quickly get to an answer? 1103 00:32:49,980 --> 00:32:52,500 It again feeds back into main quest, 1104 00:32:52,530 --> 00:32:52,800 right? 1105 00:32:52,830 --> 00:32:53,170 Right, right. 1106 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,380 You got a side quest to go get the hammer. 1107 00:32:55,380 --> 00:32:56,730 We need to open the chest. 1108 00:32:56,730 --> 00:32:58,020 That's part of the main quest, right? 1109 00:32:58,050 --> 00:32:59,070 You gotta, you gotta do this stuff. 1110 00:32:59,415 --> 00:33:02,685 The big risk here isn't in trying something new. 1111 00:33:02,685 --> 00:33:02,925 I know. 1112 00:33:02,925 --> 00:33:04,905 We, we think of that as like a, a division of focus 1113 00:33:04,905 --> 00:33:07,785 order, but the big risk isn't in trying something new. 1114 00:33:08,265 --> 00:33:12,705 The biggest risk is, is being wrong in private 1115 00:33:13,185 --> 00:33:14,385 and, and sticking to that. 1116 00:33:14,475 --> 00:33:14,835 Right. 1117 00:33:15,165 --> 00:33:15,465 Right. 1118 00:33:15,615 --> 00:33:17,985 Our job isn't to to, to defend the plan. 1119 00:33:18,045 --> 00:33:18,165 Right. 1120 00:33:18,165 --> 00:33:18,225 Yeah. 1121 00:33:18,225 --> 00:33:19,995 I think that's what founders get in, put into that position 1122 00:33:19,995 --> 00:33:22,815 a lot where we're, it's so in pitch mode all the time that 1123 00:33:22,815 --> 00:33:25,695 we feel like it's our job to defend the plan, but it's our 1124 00:33:25,695 --> 00:33:27,105 job to discover the truth. 1125 00:33:27,105 --> 00:33:27,195 Yep. 1126 00:33:27,285 --> 00:33:32,325 This is what we have to agree to, and side quests are one 1127 00:33:32,325 --> 00:33:33,225 of the ways that we get there. 1128 00:33:33,554 --> 00:33:36,345 I agree, and I think if you look at our history, like our 1129 00:33:36,345 --> 00:33:39,225 success over 15 years as a company, which I'm very proud 1130 00:33:39,225 --> 00:33:42,419 of, both the L longevity, how many people we've helped and, 1131 00:33:42,554 --> 00:33:43,935 and all the people that have kind of come through this 1132 00:33:43,935 --> 00:33:46,875 company over time, what's made us the most successful 1133 00:33:47,145 --> 00:33:49,695 hasn't been conviction to knowing what the answer is. 1134 00:33:49,935 --> 00:33:49,995 Yeah. 1135 00:33:50,024 --> 00:33:53,054 It's had been the openness to be able to say. 1136 00:33:53,419 --> 00:33:56,270 What if, what if that, what if that, and I think it's 1137 00:33:56,270 --> 00:33:58,850 also part and parcel with what we do for a living. 1138 00:33:59,179 --> 00:34:01,370 We are in the business quite literally, of helping 1139 00:34:01,370 --> 00:34:04,909 people ask, what if it would be a bit, yes, uh, it'd be 1140 00:34:04,909 --> 00:34:08,200 hypocritical if we never did it ourselves, but we do do it. 1141 00:34:08,739 --> 00:34:10,780 We put ourselves on the line all the time. 1142 00:34:10,810 --> 00:34:13,900 Every year we make big bets on totally different things, 1143 00:34:14,290 --> 00:34:15,280 and we see what happens. 1144 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,889 Like we said before, we're willing to be wrong, and 1145 00:34:17,889 --> 00:34:19,929 I think that that takes a tremendous amount of courage. 1146 00:34:20,260 --> 00:34:22,600 So I think for a lot of startups, the biggest risk 1147 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,170 for your startup is not being able to take that linear path. 1148 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:27,850 The biggest risk is not knowing. 1149 00:34:27,850 --> 00:34:31,330 So the only way, the only way that you can de-risk 1150 00:34:31,330 --> 00:34:34,179 this business is by taking the plunge, by trying every 1151 00:34:34,179 --> 00:34:36,760 side quest that you can within reason and figuring 1152 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:37,600 out which one of those. 1153 00:34:37,865 --> 00:34:40,715 Actually defines where you're supposed to really be at 1154 00:34:41,765 --> 00:34:43,625 overthinking your startup because you're going it alone. 1155 00:34:44,015 --> 00:34:46,925 You don't have to, and honestly, you shouldn't because instead, 1156 00:34:46,925 --> 00:34:50,015 you can learn directly from peers who've been in your shoes. 1157 00:34:50,105 --> 00:34:52,445 Connect with bootstrap founders and the advisors 1158 00:34:52,445 --> 00:34:54,875 helping them win in the startups.com community. 1159 00:34:55,025 --> 00:34:59,675 Check out the startups.com community@www.startups.com 1160 00:34:59,765 --> 00:35:00,695 to see if it's for you. 1161 00:35:00,905 --> 00:35:01,985 Could be just the thing you need. 1162 00:35:02,195 --> 00:35:03,155 I hope to see you inside.