1 00:00:07,458 --> 00:00:08,541 Good morning. 2 00:00:08,541 --> 00:00:10,375 Good afternoon and good evening. 3 00:00:10,375 --> 00:00:13,375 Welcome to the Rethink Culture Podcast, 4 00:00:13,625 --> 00:00:16,125 the podcast that shines a spotlight on business leaders 5 00:00:16,125 --> 00:00:20,875 who are creating intentional cultures, who see their employees not as resources 6 00:00:20,875 --> 00:00:25,708 to be managed or directed, but as people that need to be led and inspired. 7 00:00:25,791 --> 00:00:28,791 My name is Andreas Constantinou, and I'm your host. 8 00:00:28,791 --> 00:00:33,333 I see myself as an accidental micromanager who turned servant leader 9 00:00:33,375 --> 00:00:37,916 and over the years developed a personal passion for culture. 10 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,000 And I'm also the founder of Rethink Culture, a company that aims to help 11 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:46,416 create 1 million healthier, more fulfilling workplace cultures. 12 00:00:46,500 --> 00:00:50,041 Today, I have the pleasure of welcoming Joey Coleman. 13 00:00:50,125 --> 00:00:53,000 Joey is a professional speaker and author 14 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,375 who teaches people to keep their employees 15 00:00:56,458 --> 00:01:02,583 and customers, and we'll hear a lot about how to keep our employees. 16 00:01:02,625 --> 00:01:04,375 He's the author of a couple of books, 17 00:01:04,375 --> 00:01:08,125 including Never Lose an Employee Again. 18 00:01:08,208 --> 00:01:12,166 He loves reading, he tells me reading several books at the same time. 19 00:01:12,166 --> 00:01:13,416 He loves building Legos. 20 00:01:13,416 --> 00:01:18,791 And I think some of the Legos you'll see shortly behind him and his library. 21 00:01:18,875 --> 00:01:20,416 And he's also an adventurer. 22 00:01:20,416 --> 00:01:24,583 He's visited all seven continents, raced along the Great Wall of China 23 00:01:24,666 --> 00:01:26,250 and sailed around the world. 24 00:01:26,250 --> 00:01:29,833 So our expectations are running high, Joey, 25 00:01:29,916 --> 00:01:32,625 very welcome to the Rethink Culture podcast. 26 00:01:32,625 --> 00:01:34,000 Thank you so much, Andreas. 27 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,166 It is an absolute pleasure to be here. 28 00:01:36,166 --> 00:01:38,625 I'm really looking forward to our conversation 29 00:01:38,625 --> 00:01:41,750 and I so appreciate everybody who's listening in or watching in. 30 00:01:41,750 --> 00:01:45,708 I hope you enjoy the conversation and find as much value as I'm sure 31 00:01:45,708 --> 00:01:49,875 I'm going to find in Andreas’s questions and our conversations. 32 00:01:49,958 --> 00:01:51,416 So where do we start, Joey? 33 00:01:51,416 --> 00:01:57,833 What led you to a passion on how to keep employees? 34 00:01:57,916 --> 00:02:02,291 Well, I think if we look at my passion for keeping employees, 35 00:02:02,375 --> 00:02:06,083 it really stems from a number of life experiences. 36 00:02:06,125 --> 00:02:08,833 My career has been very eclectic. 37 00:02:08,833 --> 00:02:10,458 After studying government 38 00:02:10,458 --> 00:02:14,500 and international relations at university, I went straight to law school 39 00:02:14,500 --> 00:02:19,041 where I studied international law, national security law and litigation. 40 00:02:19,125 --> 00:02:22,750 I had the pleasure of working for the United States Secret Service. 41 00:02:22,958 --> 00:02:25,791 I worked in the White House Office of Counsel to the President. 42 00:02:25,791 --> 00:02:27,500 I worked in the CIA. 43 00:02:27,500 --> 00:02:30,166 I worked for business consulting companies. 44 00:02:30,166 --> 00:02:33,958 I worked at a company that did promotional products. 45 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,500 I worked in various law firms. 46 00:02:35,500 --> 00:02:37,125 I was a criminal defense lawyer. 47 00:02:37,125 --> 00:02:39,625 I taught at the postgraduate level. 48 00:02:39,625 --> 00:02:43,375 I ran an ad agency for almost 15 years. 49 00:02:43,458 --> 00:02:46,333 And what's interesting about all of these different career 50 00:02:46,333 --> 00:02:52,041 experiences is in every one of those jobs, the way you succeeded as a business, 51 00:02:52,041 --> 00:02:55,791 as a leader, as an employee within the organization, 52 00:02:55,875 --> 00:03:00,041 was by having a keen understanding of the human condition. 53 00:03:00,125 --> 00:03:02,708 Why do humans do the things they do? 54 00:03:02,708 --> 00:03:05,125 And what can we do to convince, persuade, 55 00:03:05,125 --> 00:03:09,166 encourage them to do the things we'd like them to do. 56 00:03:09,250 --> 00:03:14,625 And that has kind of led me on a lifelong exploration of experience, of human 57 00:03:14,625 --> 00:03:19,375 dynamics, of interpersonal interactions in both a customer setting, 58 00:03:19,375 --> 00:03:23,291 an employee setting, and even just in a human to human setting. 59 00:03:23,500 --> 00:03:26,458 In our travels during in our day to day lives, 60 00:03:26,458 --> 00:03:31,041 So you started by writing this book Never Lose a Customer Again, 61 00:03:31,125 --> 00:03:33,250 and recently you 62 00:03:33,250 --> 00:03:36,750 published a second book, which is Never Lose an Employee Again. 63 00:03:36,791 --> 00:03:42,250 So was the second book always in the back of your mind, 64 00:03:42,250 --> 00:03:46,458 or did it come up in the later stages? 65 00:03:46,541 --> 00:03:48,166 Well, I'll say a couple of things about that. 66 00:03:48,166 --> 00:03:53,000 You know, the I had been in the customer experience space for about 5 minutes 67 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:57,750 when I realized that you can't deliver a remarkable customer experience 68 00:03:57,833 --> 00:04:02,708 if you don't have remarkable employees who are able to deliver that experience. 69 00:04:02,791 --> 00:04:06,541 Now, that being said, I didn't have plans to write a book 70 00:04:06,541 --> 00:04:10,791 about employee experience until really two things happened. 71 00:04:10,791 --> 00:04:15,375 Number one, after my first book came out, I received an email from a reader 72 00:04:15,500 --> 00:04:19,625 and all the emails said was, Dear Joey, if you wrote 73 00:04:19,625 --> 00:04:23,750 a book called Never Lose an Employee Again, I would buy it. 74 00:04:23,833 --> 00:04:25,666 And it was signed by the reader. 75 00:04:25,666 --> 00:04:27,333 And I thought, Well, that's kind of interesting. 76 00:04:27,333 --> 00:04:29,708 I had considered employee experience, 77 00:04:29,708 --> 00:04:33,416 but I had never considered writing a book about it specifically. 78 00:04:33,500 --> 00:04:37,416 And then I got another email exactly like that. 79 00:04:37,500 --> 00:04:41,041 And another email exactly like that, all from different readers 80 00:04:41,041 --> 00:04:44,250 from all over the world with just the simple message. 81 00:04:44,333 --> 00:04:49,208 If you wrote a book called Never Lose an Employee Again, I would buy it. 82 00:04:49,291 --> 00:04:50,541 That was it. 83 00:04:50,541 --> 00:04:53,541 And that led me to getting curious. 84 00:04:53,791 --> 00:04:57,458 And the more I started to look at employee experiences 85 00:04:57,458 --> 00:05:01,541 and employee retention issues and employee recruiting issues, 86 00:05:01,625 --> 00:05:03,791 I realized that many of the same challenges 87 00:05:03,791 --> 00:05:07,208 that organizations faced with their customers they were facing 88 00:05:07,208 --> 00:05:10,708 at an exponential level with their employees. 89 00:05:10,791 --> 00:05:14,791 That led me to start doing some research, some speaking on the topic, 90 00:05:14,791 --> 00:05:15,958 exploring the topic. 91 00:05:15,958 --> 00:05:19,541 And when I finally felt that it reached a level of 92 00:05:19,583 --> 00:05:20,625 being, for 93 00:05:20,625 --> 00:05:23,666 lack of a better way of put it, worth investing the time 94 00:05:23,666 --> 00:05:27,375 to write a book about it, I decided to go write the book. 95 00:05:27,458 --> 00:05:29,833 And how far ago was that? 96 00:05:29,833 --> 00:05:33,375 So I started to I officially made the decision 97 00:05:33,375 --> 00:05:35,791 to write the book back in about 2019. 98 00:05:35,791 --> 00:05:38,875 Late 2019, 99 00:05:38,875 --> 00:05:42,458 and went to my publisher and they said, We're excited to have this book. 100 00:05:42,541 --> 00:05:45,375 We started working on the book, and almost immediately after 101 00:05:45,375 --> 00:05:50,083 we started working on the book, the COVID pandemic came along, 102 00:05:50,166 --> 00:05:55,291 and I actually reached back out to my publisher and I said, We need to pause. 103 00:05:55,375 --> 00:05:56,583 We need to pause on the 104 00:05:56,583 --> 00:06:00,250 production schedule, because I believe what is happening right now 105 00:06:00,416 --> 00:06:03,375 in the world of work is going to fundamentally 106 00:06:03,375 --> 00:06:08,083 change the workplace and how employees and employers interact 107 00:06:08,166 --> 00:06:11,583 in a way that is unprecedented in human history. 108 00:06:11,666 --> 00:06:15,250 And I want to give time to see how that plays out. 109 00:06:15,333 --> 00:06:18,250 And so this allowed me to do even more research on things 110 00:06:18,250 --> 00:06:22,458 like remote work on globalization of work, on workplace culture. 111 00:06:22,666 --> 00:06:27,666 And I'm glad we did pause so that we could kind of experience the breadth of that. 112 00:06:27,750 --> 00:06:30,750 The reality is those stories are still playing out today. 113 00:06:30,750 --> 00:06:33,250 They're still evolving. They're still changing. 114 00:06:33,250 --> 00:06:37,083 But I thought we had reached a point where putting a book in place 115 00:06:37,291 --> 00:06:40,083 that would hopefully give leaders a blueprint 116 00:06:40,083 --> 00:06:43,166 and some ideas of things they could be doing to enhance 117 00:06:43,166 --> 00:06:46,166 their cultures and enhance their employee experiences 118 00:06:46,250 --> 00:06:49,625 would be worthwhile for leaders to spend their time reading. 119 00:06:49,625 --> 00:06:51,708 So we reached that point where we could do it. 120 00:06:51,708 --> 00:06:53,958 And here we are today. 121 00:06:54,041 --> 00:06:54,791 What did you 122 00:06:54,791 --> 00:06:57,791 find that you didn't expect before? 123 00:06:57,791 --> 00:06:59,750 Before the pandemic was there? 124 00:06:59,750 --> 00:07:03,000 Was there a an assumption that was challenged, 125 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,333 did you see things completely differently, did you see people, 126 00:07:06,333 --> 00:07:09,666 employees reacting in different ways for your research? 127 00:07:09,750 --> 00:07:14,833 I think what I saw is that the things that I had started 128 00:07:14,833 --> 00:07:20,291 to see and witness and experience in little pockets 129 00:07:20,333 --> 00:07:24,291 became more ubiquitous around the world. 130 00:07:24,375 --> 00:07:29,291 So there was always a desire for employees to be able to have flexibility at work. 131 00:07:29,375 --> 00:07:32,041 But when governments came along and locked down 132 00:07:32,041 --> 00:07:35,041 people's interactions that they could have in person 133 00:07:35,125 --> 00:07:38,875 we shifted to everybody being online, trying to continue 134 00:07:38,875 --> 00:07:41,916 doing their doing their work, not everyone, but a significant, 135 00:07:41,916 --> 00:07:45,625 significant percentage of the workforce globally. 136 00:07:45,708 --> 00:07:49,750 I think we also had a major shift in employers 137 00:07:49,833 --> 00:07:53,291 starting to accept the fact that 138 00:07:53,333 --> 00:07:57,791 their work could continue to be done 139 00:07:57,833 --> 00:08:01,375 even if the employees weren't in the room with them. 140 00:08:01,541 --> 00:08:04,583 And I think that was a big shift that some employers 141 00:08:04,583 --> 00:08:06,750 had already adopted that philosophy. 142 00:08:06,750 --> 00:08:09,833 But as part of the pandemic, almost 143 00:08:09,833 --> 00:08:13,333 every employer was forced to adopt that policy. 144 00:08:13,500 --> 00:08:16,666 And what we found is this experiment of what would it be like if people 145 00:08:16,666 --> 00:08:22,375 worked somewhere other than the office proved out to be a fairly positive result. 146 00:08:22,583 --> 00:08:23,541 Now, let me be clear. 147 00:08:23,541 --> 00:08:26,125 There were tragic things that happened with the pandemic. 148 00:08:26,125 --> 00:08:27,166 Absolutely. 149 00:08:27,166 --> 00:08:31,333 But if there was a an upside or a positive thing that happened 150 00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:32,750 from the pandemic, 151 00:08:32,750 --> 00:08:36,333 it's that I think many organizations that previously had limited 152 00:08:36,333 --> 00:08:41,708 their workplaces to employees that live within 20 kilometers of headquarters 153 00:08:41,791 --> 00:08:45,750 now had this understanding that they could employ people globally, 154 00:08:45,916 --> 00:08:49,500 that those people could work from home, that those people could have more flexible 155 00:08:49,500 --> 00:08:53,875 schedules and more flexible lives, and as a result, more autonomy and freedom 156 00:08:53,875 --> 00:08:58,333 and opportunity in their personal lives to match their professional lives. 157 00:08:58,583 --> 00:09:02,458 This led to a net positive in the world of work. 158 00:09:02,541 --> 00:09:06,750 And how do you feel now that companies are going back? 159 00:09:06,750 --> 00:09:07,583 Not everyone, but 160 00:09:07,583 --> 00:09:11,500 many companies are going back to saying, hey, you need to come back to the office, 161 00:09:11,583 --> 00:09:13,833 because that's how we maintain our culture. 162 00:09:13,833 --> 00:09:15,416 Because 163 00:09:15,500 --> 00:09:19,166 for one reason or another, they weren't 164 00:09:19,166 --> 00:09:23,416 fully committed to remote work, but it's something they had to do. 165 00:09:23,458 --> 00:09:27,208 I think that many of the organizations 166 00:09:27,208 --> 00:09:30,458 that are saying we need to come back to the office 167 00:09:30,541 --> 00:09:33,875 are not being genuine when they say it's because they want 168 00:09:33,875 --> 00:09:37,791 to maintain their culture or that it's for the employees. 169 00:09:37,875 --> 00:09:43,000 I think in many organizations it is for command and control. 170 00:09:43,083 --> 00:09:46,125 I think in many organizations it's because the leaders 171 00:09:46,291 --> 00:09:49,291 are uncomfortable operating remotely. 172 00:09:49,416 --> 00:09:54,750 And I think in many organizations it's because the management team 173 00:09:54,875 --> 00:09:57,750 wants to be able to look across a crowd of people 174 00:09:57,750 --> 00:10:01,333 and actually see these people work for me. 175 00:10:01,416 --> 00:10:03,666 Now, are there benefits to being in person? 176 00:10:03,666 --> 00:10:05,458 100%. 177 00:10:05,458 --> 00:10:07,583 Is it easier to collaborate in person? 178 00:10:07,583 --> 00:10:09,166 In many instances it is. 179 00:10:09,166 --> 00:10:11,291 Is it easier to be more creative in person? 180 00:10:11,291 --> 00:10:13,500 In many instances it is. 181 00:10:13,500 --> 00:10:15,541 But the organizations that are saying 182 00:10:15,541 --> 00:10:19,958 we need to get back to the office because of preservation of culture, 183 00:10:20,041 --> 00:10:22,750 I think are being a little bit disingenuous 184 00:10:22,750 --> 00:10:27,791 because their culture in many of them wasn't that great before the pandemic, 185 00:10:27,875 --> 00:10:31,958 and they haven't made systemic changes in their either office space 186 00:10:31,958 --> 00:10:35,583 or their operations that would give employees any belief 187 00:10:35,791 --> 00:10:40,625 that the culture is going to be better now that they're back in an office setting. 188 00:10:40,708 --> 00:10:44,333 Indeed, I find that you need to design 189 00:10:44,333 --> 00:10:51,625 your processes, how people collaborate, coordinate, 190 00:10:51,708 --> 00:10:54,166 share experiences 191 00:10:54,166 --> 00:10:57,125 and tap into each other's help. 192 00:10:57,125 --> 00:11:00,500 You know, every every form of interaction, you have to redesign it, 193 00:11:00,583 --> 00:11:04,125 thoughtfully, for a remote working environment. 194 00:11:04,208 --> 00:11:09,791 And it's not that someone came and said, here's the manual of how to do it. 195 00:11:09,791 --> 00:11:14,208 It just said, you know, you have to get your employees 196 00:11:14,208 --> 00:11:18,041 working remotely and just figure it out. 197 00:11:18,125 --> 00:11:22,833 And I don't think that period of the lockdowns were sufficient to encourage 198 00:11:22,833 --> 00:11:26,541 everyone to really redesign 199 00:11:26,625 --> 00:11:29,291 how they were going about remote work. 200 00:11:29,291 --> 00:11:31,833 And so what we're left is a mental 201 00:11:31,833 --> 00:11:36,250 way of it kind of works, but we're not sure 202 00:11:36,458 --> 00:11:39,708 how to make it work like it was before, as effective 203 00:11:39,708 --> 00:11:44,750 as it was in the, you know, 204 00:11:44,833 --> 00:11:47,375 face to face work. 205 00:11:47,375 --> 00:11:49,791 And so we'll just ask people to come back. 206 00:11:49,791 --> 00:11:54,125 I don't disagree, Andreas, but I guess I'm curious is when when organizations. 207 00:11:54,125 --> 00:11:56,625 Well, lots of times, so in my consulting engagements 208 00:11:56,625 --> 00:12:00,291 or even in my speeches, you know, leaders will say to me, well, 209 00:12:00,333 --> 00:12:03,708 it's it's not as effective as it was before. 210 00:12:03,791 --> 00:12:05,291 We want to get back to what it was. 211 00:12:05,291 --> 00:12:08,666 And I'm like, great, What are you measuring? 212 00:12:08,750 --> 00:12:11,166 What isn't as effective? 213 00:12:11,166 --> 00:12:13,833 Because I think lots of times leaders will say, well, 214 00:12:13,833 --> 00:12:17,958 it will be better if we're all back in the office. Why? 215 00:12:18,041 --> 00:12:19,833 What proof do you have? 216 00:12:19,833 --> 00:12:21,833 What data do you have? 217 00:12:21,833 --> 00:12:24,875 Because as we look anecdotally at anecdata 218 00:12:25,083 --> 00:12:29,625 or we look systemically or statistically at research data, 219 00:12:29,708 --> 00:12:34,166 it seems to indicate that the great majority of employees 220 00:12:34,250 --> 00:12:37,583 are happier working remotely than want to work 221 00:12:37,583 --> 00:12:41,250 in the office, and that pretty much cuts across all industries. 222 00:12:41,291 --> 00:12:43,291 Now, are there people that want to be back in the office 223 00:12:43,291 --> 00:12:47,083 absolutely, but it's usually not the majority of a team. 224 00:12:47,166 --> 00:12:49,708 It's usually a small minority. 225 00:12:49,708 --> 00:12:52,000 So we're going to take all these people 226 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,000 who've been working from home for one or two or three years 227 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:59,541 and now say, come back to the office because it's going to be better? 228 00:12:59,625 --> 00:13:01,208 Better for whom? 229 00:13:01,208 --> 00:13:02,833 Better for the employee? 230 00:13:02,833 --> 00:13:04,791 Statistically, no. 231 00:13:04,791 --> 00:13:06,458 Better for the employer? 232 00:13:06,458 --> 00:13:08,708 Well, maybe conceptually, 233 00:13:08,708 --> 00:13:12,833 but what is the data that they are citing that will make it better? 234 00:13:12,916 --> 00:13:16,333 What I find fascinating, Andreas, is so many organizations 235 00:13:16,541 --> 00:13:19,458 increasingly are driven by data. 236 00:13:19,458 --> 00:13:22,708 We know if an advertisement works based on how many click on it, 237 00:13:22,833 --> 00:13:25,750 how many goes through our funnel, and how many convert. 238 00:13:25,750 --> 00:13:28,958 We are driven by data because we know when we're in our factory setting, 239 00:13:28,958 --> 00:13:32,458 we manufacture to certain tolerances that only allow us to have 240 00:13:32,458 --> 00:13:36,375 a small percentage of defects per million products created. 241 00:13:36,458 --> 00:13:40,750 Yet when it comes to our interactions with our coworkers and our employees, 242 00:13:40,916 --> 00:13:45,333 we say, Well, it'll just be better if you're back to work. 243 00:13:45,416 --> 00:13:46,750 There's no data, 244 00:13:46,750 --> 00:13:50,833 there's no analysis, which to me 245 00:13:50,916 --> 00:13:55,250 supports the belief that many organizations 246 00:13:55,333 --> 00:14:00,375 are completely out of touch with what their people actually want 247 00:14:00,458 --> 00:14:03,458 and instead are trying to force their employees 248 00:14:03,666 --> 00:14:07,000 into a model that they believe will work, 249 00:14:07,208 --> 00:14:11,208 even though they have no data or proof that it actually does. 250 00:14:11,291 --> 00:14:16,666 Do you have a sense whether a choice of remote work 251 00:14:16,750 --> 00:14:19,375 affects engagement? 252 00:14:19,375 --> 00:14:23,250 I think a choice as a general rule improves engagement 253 00:14:23,458 --> 00:14:27,666 because it leads to feelings of autonomy and freedom. 254 00:14:27,750 --> 00:14:31,291 When employees feel that they have autonomy, when employees feel 255 00:14:31,291 --> 00:14:34,625 that they have freedom, when employees feel that they have flexibility, 256 00:14:34,708 --> 00:14:37,708 they are more productive, they are more efficient. 257 00:14:37,833 --> 00:14:40,833 They are happier at work and they stay longer. 258 00:14:40,958 --> 00:14:43,958 All the things that organizations say they want. 259 00:14:44,125 --> 00:14:47,291 Now, the flip side of that, Andreas, is that most organizations, 260 00:14:47,291 --> 00:14:51,250 by giving an employee autonomy, by giving them freedom, 261 00:14:51,333 --> 00:14:57,416 they might not choose the thing that you as an organization want them to choose. 262 00:14:57,500 --> 00:14:59,750 And this creates the conflict. 263 00:14:59,750 --> 00:15:02,791 This leads us back to a command and control structure where we say, 264 00:15:02,791 --> 00:15:07,458 I want you to work these hours in this location, doing this task. 265 00:15:07,541 --> 00:15:08,708 That's fine. 266 00:15:08,708 --> 00:15:09,958 And there are certain jobs 267 00:15:09,958 --> 00:15:13,958 in certain positions where we need to perform in that degree. 268 00:15:14,041 --> 00:15:18,333 But increasingly, in businesses across all industries, 269 00:15:18,416 --> 00:15:21,125 we're not needing employees 270 00:15:21,125 --> 00:15:23,916 who can execute on discrete task. 271 00:15:23,916 --> 00:15:25,500 Those tasks can be automated. 272 00:15:25,500 --> 00:15:27,250 Those tasks can be systematized. 273 00:15:27,250 --> 00:15:30,250 Those tasks can be relegated to robots or A.I.. 274 00:15:30,500 --> 00:15:34,541 Increasingly, we're looking for employees who can exercise 275 00:15:34,583 --> 00:15:37,375 critical thinking and critical judgment 276 00:15:37,375 --> 00:15:41,083 and can respond to unforeseen scenarios 277 00:15:41,166 --> 00:15:44,958 in a way that is in alignment with our organizational values. 278 00:15:45,041 --> 00:15:47,875 Those type of scenarios by their very nature, 279 00:15:47,875 --> 00:15:51,791 require emphasis on autonomy. 280 00:15:51,833 --> 00:15:53,916 Emphasis on flexibility. 281 00:15:53,916 --> 00:15:55,791 Emphasis on creativity. 282 00:15:55,791 --> 00:15:57,541 That the typical business structure 283 00:15:57,541 --> 00:16:01,250 is not designed to either create gender or foster. 284 00:16:01,333 --> 00:16:04,333 Is there something else besides remote work that you feel 285 00:16:04,333 --> 00:16:07,166 is a driver for engagement? 286 00:16:07,250 --> 00:16:10,375 Oh, I think there's many things that are drivers for engagement. 287 00:16:10,375 --> 00:16:14,250 I think the number one driver for whether an employee feels engaged 288 00:16:14,250 --> 00:16:20,000 with the work they do is whether they feel seen, heard and valued. 289 00:16:20,083 --> 00:16:23,083 If an employee doesn't feel seen, heard and valued, 290 00:16:23,208 --> 00:16:25,000 I don't care whether they're working from home 291 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,750 or they're working from the office, they're not going to be happy. 292 00:16:28,833 --> 00:16:33,708 And I believe we need to have all three things to succeed. 293 00:16:33,791 --> 00:16:35,083 What do I mean by that? 294 00:16:35,083 --> 00:16:40,375 An employee needs to feel that they individually are contributing. 295 00:16:40,458 --> 00:16:43,208 They need to be seen for their contribution. 296 00:16:43,208 --> 00:16:47,416 They need to be seen as someone who is a vital part 297 00:16:47,416 --> 00:16:49,333 of the organizational operation. 298 00:16:49,333 --> 00:16:51,791 Secondly, they need to feel heard. 299 00:16:51,791 --> 00:16:54,583 They need to believe when they raise their hand and say, 300 00:16:54,583 --> 00:16:56,250 We need to be better at this 301 00:16:56,250 --> 00:16:59,708 or there's a problem I'm noticing or I need more support here. 302 00:16:59,958 --> 00:17:02,958 They need to feel that they're not shouting that to the void, 303 00:17:03,166 --> 00:17:08,166 but most importantly, they need to feel valued and appreciated. 304 00:17:08,250 --> 00:17:11,666 Andreas, I've had the pleasure of traveling to all seven continents, 305 00:17:11,666 --> 00:17:12,916 as you shared. 306 00:17:12,916 --> 00:17:17,958 I have yet to meet a human being on the planet, of any age, 307 00:17:18,041 --> 00:17:23,041 any gender, any race, any religion, any country, any culture, 308 00:17:23,125 --> 00:17:25,708 who has said to me, Joey, 309 00:17:25,708 --> 00:17:28,708 I have enough appreciation in my life, 310 00:17:28,708 --> 00:17:32,000 I never need to be appreciated by anyone else ever again. 311 00:17:32,083 --> 00:17:34,875 I am full. I'm done. 312 00:17:34,958 --> 00:17:37,750 Humans want to feel that they're making an impact. 313 00:17:37,750 --> 00:17:40,333 They want to feel that they're experiencing progress. 314 00:17:40,333 --> 00:17:42,458 They want to feel that they're making a contribution. 315 00:17:42,458 --> 00:17:46,458 They want to feel that their contributions and their impacts are rewarded, 316 00:17:46,541 --> 00:17:51,291 are acknowledged, are appreciated, and are valued. 317 00:17:51,375 --> 00:17:55,083 It's that simple and it's that complex. 318 00:17:55,166 --> 00:18:00,166 So you talk about recognition, being listened to 319 00:18:00,250 --> 00:18:03,250 and being appreciated. 320 00:18:03,333 --> 00:18:05,833 Right? Yes. 321 00:18:05,833 --> 00:18:09,708 So I read about this 100 days methodology, 322 00:18:09,708 --> 00:18:12,791 which you talk about in your book, but can you summarize it for us? 323 00:18:12,791 --> 00:18:15,041 Like, is this 324 00:18:15,041 --> 00:18:19,166 seen, heard and appreciated, is this part of the methodology? 325 00:18:19,250 --> 00:18:20,333 it absolutely is. 326 00:18:20,333 --> 00:18:25,416 So the first 100 days methodology at a high level looks to research 327 00:18:25,416 --> 00:18:30,583 that says the first 100 days of an employee's experience 328 00:18:30,666 --> 00:18:34,583 are the most crucial time in the entire employee journey. 329 00:18:34,666 --> 00:18:37,875 This is where the foundation is established. 330 00:18:37,958 --> 00:18:41,625 This is where an employee is onboarded into an organization. 331 00:18:41,875 --> 00:18:44,916 They become part of a culture that is bigger than themselves, 332 00:18:44,916 --> 00:18:49,458 and they begin to contribute to a culture that is bigger than themselves. 333 00:18:49,541 --> 00:18:55,458 In the first 100 days in most organizations, employees feel overwhelmed. 334 00:18:55,541 --> 00:18:58,791 They feel unconnected. 335 00:18:58,875 --> 00:19:01,875 They feel unseen, unheard, unappreciated. 336 00:19:02,083 --> 00:19:06,458 Because to use an analogy, they are drinking from the fire hose. 337 00:19:06,541 --> 00:19:11,208 There's so many things happening, and this is why we see a huge percentage 338 00:19:11,208 --> 00:19:15,166 of employees quit very quickly. 339 00:19:15,250 --> 00:19:20,166 The research shows that across all industries globally, 40% of newly 340 00:19:20,166 --> 00:19:23,541 hired employees will quit that job 341 00:19:23,583 --> 00:19:26,166 before the one year anniversary. 342 00:19:26,166 --> 00:19:29,916 40%, over half of those will quit 343 00:19:30,166 --> 00:19:33,708 in the first 45 days on the job. 344 00:19:33,791 --> 00:19:36,791 So the number of people that are coming into our organizations 345 00:19:36,791 --> 00:19:41,666 that are barely there and then are leaving is absolutely catastrophic. 346 00:19:41,708 --> 00:19:43,458 It's double digit. 347 00:19:43,458 --> 00:19:46,458 What's scarier to me, Andreas, than those statistics 348 00:19:46,625 --> 00:19:50,833 is that the typical business leader has no idea what their percentage is. 349 00:19:50,916 --> 00:19:53,833 They have no idea how quickly people are leaving 350 00:19:53,833 --> 00:19:58,666 and they have no true idea as to why they're leaving. 351 00:19:58,750 --> 00:20:00,125 And as a result, 352 00:20:00,125 --> 00:20:04,625 they're trying to solve this problem by quickly recruiting someone new. 353 00:20:04,708 --> 00:20:07,625 Refilling the seat, getting someone else in the position, 354 00:20:07,625 --> 00:20:10,833 and we're bringing them through the same broken recruiting process 355 00:20:11,041 --> 00:20:14,041 into the same broken onboarding process, hoping 356 00:20:14,041 --> 00:20:17,750 we'll get a different result when it comes to their retention and engagement. 357 00:20:17,833 --> 00:20:20,291 This is not a recipe for success. 358 00:20:20,291 --> 00:20:23,083 And what I tried to do in the book is outline a methodology 359 00:20:23,083 --> 00:20:26,416 and a framework for thinking differently about the employee experience. 360 00:20:26,416 --> 00:20:30,166 In the first 100 days and beyond in a way 361 00:20:30,166 --> 00:20:34,208 that leaves employees feeling seen, heard and valued. 362 00:20:34,291 --> 00:20:38,333 I can certainly attest to the power of the onboarding process. 363 00:20:38,333 --> 00:20:45,583 And to be honest, I didn't recognize its importance until I messed it up. 364 00:20:45,666 --> 00:20:46,916 So there's this story. 365 00:20:46,916 --> 00:20:53,041 Our current CEO's, I’ve transitioned away from the CEO 366 00:20:53,125 --> 00:20:58,500 to someone else in my business and 367 00:20:58,583 --> 00:21:01,916 the current CEO when they started in the company, 368 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,541 we didn't pay any attention to the onboarding process. 369 00:21:05,541 --> 00:21:08,958 So she started when it was summer. 370 00:21:08,958 --> 00:21:10,083 I was away on holiday. 371 00:21:10,083 --> 00:21:13,083 I was the one person that could onboard her. 372 00:21:13,166 --> 00:21:15,458 She started as a salesperson 373 00:21:15,458 --> 00:21:19,208 and we gave her a secondhand laptop 374 00:21:19,291 --> 00:21:21,708 that wasn't properly, you know, 375 00:21:21,708 --> 00:21:25,083 cleaned, you know, from the previous user. 376 00:21:25,166 --> 00:21:27,000 And that was such a lousy experience. 377 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,250 And then a few months later, when I heard that this was, 378 00:21:30,291 --> 00:21:35,583 you know, how how she experienced the onboarding process, 379 00:21:35,583 --> 00:21:39,958 I realized how important these first days is. 380 00:21:40,041 --> 00:21:44,541 And now when I look at other leaders and I look at the lack of an onboarding 381 00:21:44,541 --> 00:21:47,875 process, to me it’s so intuitive that 382 00:21:47,958 --> 00:21:53,250 this is the honeymoon phase for for an employee in a new business, 383 00:21:53,250 --> 00:21:55,291 it's like when everything is rosy 384 00:21:55,291 --> 00:21:59,250 and you expect like this wonderful job and wonderful colleagues 385 00:21:59,333 --> 00:22:03,875 and purpose-filled mission and this is part of your new life. 386 00:22:03,875 --> 00:22:07,666 So you expect it to be, 387 00:22:07,750 --> 00:22:08,416 you know, 388 00:22:08,416 --> 00:22:12,416 so many things for you, but you see these little things 389 00:22:12,416 --> 00:22:16,291 that don't make sense around you and then you start having questions 390 00:22:16,375 --> 00:22:20,041 and questioning like, did I join the right company or not? 391 00:22:20,041 --> 00:22:24,416 So it's not common for for leaders 392 00:22:24,416 --> 00:22:28,791 to be aware of the employee 393 00:22:28,791 --> 00:22:33,000 onboarding process because it's been a while 394 00:22:33,083 --> 00:22:37,625 since they experienced a lousy onboarding process. 395 00:22:37,708 --> 00:22:38,583 Absolutely. 396 00:22:38,583 --> 00:22:39,958 Andreas, I couldn't agree with you more. 397 00:22:39,958 --> 00:22:42,625 Not only is it been a while since they've been experienced 398 00:22:42,625 --> 00:22:47,083 a lousy onboarding process, but if it's a founder leader, 399 00:22:47,166 --> 00:22:50,208 they were never onboarded into their own organization. 400 00:22:50,208 --> 00:22:52,708 So they have no personal context. 401 00:22:52,708 --> 00:22:54,833 If it's more of a C-suite leader 402 00:22:54,833 --> 00:22:59,000 or a middle manager who may have worked somewhere else, they probably don't 403 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,916 have that great of experiences elsewhere to serve as an idea for them. 404 00:23:03,125 --> 00:23:06,125 And in most organizations, onboarding is 405 00:23:06,125 --> 00:23:09,125 the purview of the human resources department, 406 00:23:09,375 --> 00:23:12,291 which I have a fundamental problem with that title. 407 00:23:12,291 --> 00:23:13,333 Humans are humans. 408 00:23:13,333 --> 00:23:17,250 They're not resources, They're not tools that are to be used. 409 00:23:17,333 --> 00:23:20,250 So many organizations think about HR, 410 00:23:20,250 --> 00:23:25,958 or they think about their human resources or talent acquisition. 411 00:23:26,041 --> 00:23:30,125 I like the analogies of people and teams. 412 00:23:30,208 --> 00:23:34,000 I feel like those words that those phrases align 413 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,958 more with what we're actually dealing with, with the humans we interact with. 414 00:23:38,041 --> 00:23:42,125 And so while I empathize with that concern you had or that experience 415 00:23:42,125 --> 00:23:45,125 you had with the employee getting the secondhand laptop, 416 00:23:45,291 --> 00:23:47,750 what is both sad and yet 417 00:23:47,750 --> 00:23:50,750 not shocking and in some ways is shocking. 418 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,208 This is more common than not. 419 00:23:53,208 --> 00:23:57,833 Yours is not the only organization that is delivered this type of experience 420 00:23:57,916 --> 00:23:59,375 to a new employee. 421 00:23:59,375 --> 00:24:02,375 And so what can we do to change the experience? 422 00:24:02,375 --> 00:24:06,375 In over 50% of the businesses on the planet, 423 00:24:06,458 --> 00:24:11,333 they spend one week or less onboarding a new employee, 424 00:24:11,416 --> 00:24:15,916 and yet in almost every business on the planet, when they hire a new employee, 425 00:24:15,916 --> 00:24:19,916 if I say to them, How long do you hope that employee stays? 426 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,375 Their answer is years. 427 00:24:22,375 --> 00:24:24,916 They want the employee to be there for years, 428 00:24:24,916 --> 00:24:30,458 but they're only willing to invest one week or less in that relationship. 429 00:24:30,541 --> 00:24:33,583 What I think is interesting is when we step out of the business context 430 00:24:33,583 --> 00:24:35,375 and we look at our personal lives. 431 00:24:35,375 --> 00:24:39,125 Imagine you meet someone and you decide to start dating. 432 00:24:39,208 --> 00:24:42,458 How foolish would it be to believe I'm going to show you 433 00:24:42,458 --> 00:24:46,708 that I care about you and focus on you for one week or less 434 00:24:46,791 --> 00:24:51,458 with the hope that this leads to a long term happy, multi-year marriage. 435 00:24:51,541 --> 00:24:53,666 This would not be a recipe for success. 436 00:24:53,666 --> 00:24:55,708 This would be a recipe for failure. 437 00:24:55,708 --> 00:25:01,083 And yet this is how most organizations structure their onboarding processes. 438 00:25:01,166 --> 00:25:02,541 Right. 439 00:25:02,541 --> 00:25:02,833 Yeah. 440 00:25:02,833 --> 00:25:05,791 It's a second or third thought. 441 00:25:05,791 --> 00:25:07,125 If it's a thought at all. 442 00:25:07,125 --> 00:25:08,500 Yeah, yeah, 443 00:25:08,500 --> 00:25:08,875 very true. 444 00:25:08,875 --> 00:25:11,416 And what you said about H.R., 445 00:25:11,416 --> 00:25:13,833 I, I want to just say 446 00:25:13,833 --> 00:25:17,083 that I 100% agree with you. 447 00:25:17,083 --> 00:25:20,333 I'll say I'm working on a no H.R. 448 00:25:20,333 --> 00:25:26,250 manifesto because I believe we should 449 00:25:26,333 --> 00:25:29,208 maybe I should say ban or maybe I shouldn't say ban, 450 00:25:29,208 --> 00:25:35,500 but we should change away from any term that considers people as resources. 451 00:25:35,541 --> 00:25:40,458 And as I mentioned in the in the intentional introduction, resources 452 00:25:40,458 --> 00:25:42,208 that are 453 00:25:42,208 --> 00:25:45,833 managed and directed as opposed to led and inspired, 454 00:25:45,833 --> 00:25:50,333 I think people in culture, you said people and teams, it's very similar, 455 00:25:50,416 --> 00:25:53,000 but we need to change away from H.R. 456 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,458 and all the major conferences these days they're still about H.R. 457 00:25:56,458 --> 00:25:57,833 this or H.R. that. 458 00:25:57,833 --> 00:26:02,833 So it's a very much hard-coded, deeply ingrained 459 00:26:02,916 --> 00:26:04,708 notion 460 00:26:04,708 --> 00:26:06,125 that will take some time to change. 461 00:26:06,125 --> 00:26:11,666 Hopefully we can keep talking until it does. 462 00:26:11,750 --> 00:26:12,291 Exactly. 463 00:26:12,291 --> 00:26:17,708 Well, I often talk with my wife Andreas, that we never have to worry about 464 00:26:17,708 --> 00:26:20,083 they're not being an audience or not being somebody 465 00:26:20,083 --> 00:26:23,708 that wants to listen to a podcast or not being someone that wants to read a book 466 00:26:23,791 --> 00:26:26,791 because there's so much work to be done in this field. 467 00:26:26,958 --> 00:26:29,875 There will always be opportunities for improvement. 468 00:26:29,875 --> 00:26:35,375 So, Joey, moving to another topic, we didn't talk much about you. 469 00:26:35,375 --> 00:26:38,500 We just talked about your book on onboarding processes and culture 470 00:26:38,500 --> 00:26:39,333 and so on. 471 00:26:39,333 --> 00:26:44,291 But I do always love to, 472 00:26:44,375 --> 00:26:48,458 dive into the humanness of, of people and, 473 00:26:48,541 --> 00:26:53,125 let's, let's just take one, one simple factoid or three, three factoids, 474 00:26:53,125 --> 00:26:56,833 which is this game I like to play, which is the Two Truths and One Lie. 475 00:26:56,875 --> 00:27:01,500 So we don't have the time to get to know you properly, but maybe 476 00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:05,750 we will get to know a little bit about you through Two Truths and One Lie. 477 00:27:05,833 --> 00:27:07,250 So Okay, great. 478 00:27:07,250 --> 00:27:11,583 So I'll give you three and then you can try to guess which one is the lie. 479 00:27:11,666 --> 00:27:17,916 So number one, I've been on the International Space Station. 480 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,416 Number two, 481 00:27:19,416 --> 00:27:22,625 I've been nominated for a Grammy, 482 00:27:22,708 --> 00:27:25,291 the Recording Artist Award. 483 00:27:25,291 --> 00:27:29,875 Number three, I performed as a singer in concerts 484 00:27:29,958 --> 00:27:34,791 on all seven continents. 485 00:27:34,875 --> 00:27:36,291 These are extremely good. 486 00:27:36,291 --> 00:27:38,833 Joey, I 487 00:27:38,833 --> 00:27:41,666 they're like, they're all impossible. 488 00:27:41,666 --> 00:27:46,000 I would definitely bet against the International Space Station 489 00:27:46,083 --> 00:27:51,791 because I cannot possibly imagine how you got yourself up there. 490 00:27:51,875 --> 00:27:53,458 But let's leave the 491 00:27:53,458 --> 00:27:56,875 answer to the end of the podcast. 492 00:27:56,958 --> 00:28:02,666 And what else can we talk about? 493 00:28:02,750 --> 00:28:04,333 Who's who's a role model for you? 494 00:28:04,333 --> 00:28:06,833 Who do you look up to? 495 00:28:06,833 --> 00:28:07,333 Oh, Andreas. 496 00:28:07,333 --> 00:28:11,083 I have so many mentors and I have so many people that I look up to 497 00:28:11,083 --> 00:28:15,875 as somebody who is a student of the human condition. 498 00:28:15,958 --> 00:28:20,291 I have mentors and role models in the world of personal relations, 499 00:28:20,291 --> 00:28:25,875 familial relations, business relations, stranger relations. 500 00:28:25,916 --> 00:28:28,916 So there's a variety of people that I look up to. 501 00:28:28,916 --> 00:28:33,500 You know, I feel like it's it's not answering your question 502 00:28:33,500 --> 00:28:36,500 if I don't point to at least one. 503 00:28:36,583 --> 00:28:40,041 So allow me to point to one that I think is 504 00:28:40,041 --> 00:28:44,291 someone who is often looked up to in the world of business. 505 00:28:44,375 --> 00:28:46,791 But the reason I look up to them 506 00:28:46,791 --> 00:28:50,250 may be a little bit different than a reason 507 00:28:50,250 --> 00:28:53,250 why some other business leaders look up to them. 508 00:28:53,333 --> 00:28:55,958 And that person would be Sir Richard Branson. 509 00:28:55,958 --> 00:29:00,500 Sir Richard Branson obviously is the founder of Virgin 510 00:29:00,541 --> 00:29:03,541 and the various Virgin Airlines Virgin Cruises, 511 00:29:03,541 --> 00:29:06,375 all the different Virgin branded organizations, 512 00:29:06,375 --> 00:29:12,291 has been an incredibly successful business entrepreneur and leader for decades. 513 00:29:12,375 --> 00:29:16,208 I had the opportunity to spend some time 514 00:29:16,208 --> 00:29:20,583 interacting with him earlier this year at an event. 515 00:29:20,666 --> 00:29:25,166 And what I realized very quickly about him 516 00:29:25,250 --> 00:29:28,125 is that he is as concerned 517 00:29:28,125 --> 00:29:33,250 about the little things as he is the big things. 518 00:29:33,291 --> 00:29:36,500 We were sitting at a lunch 519 00:29:36,583 --> 00:29:40,291 having a conversation and someone at the table referenced 520 00:29:40,375 --> 00:29:44,250 they were going to be going on one of his cruise ships 521 00:29:44,333 --> 00:29:46,708 and he said, Well, where are you going on the cruise ship? 522 00:29:46,708 --> 00:29:49,166 And they said, we're going to be going on this route. 523 00:29:49,166 --> 00:29:51,333 And he says, that sounds lovely. 524 00:29:51,333 --> 00:29:55,000 And he says, I'm excited to hear what you think about it. 525 00:29:55,250 --> 00:29:58,333 They said, we'd be happy to share what we thought about it. 526 00:29:58,500 --> 00:30:01,833 And he said, How has it gone thus far? 527 00:30:01,916 --> 00:30:03,750 And I thought, this is really interesting. 528 00:30:03,750 --> 00:30:08,916 This is a billionaire who's talking to a customer who has a ticket on his cruise. 529 00:30:08,916 --> 00:30:12,041 This is as close to the base level 530 00:30:12,041 --> 00:30:16,250 operation businesswise of his cruise business as possible. 531 00:30:16,333 --> 00:30:20,958 And the person said, well, it's actually been lovely and we're excited. 532 00:30:21,041 --> 00:30:24,458 But there was this thing we were trying to do about connecting, 533 00:30:24,708 --> 00:30:28,041 you know, for from one part of the cruise to a different part of the cruise. 534 00:30:28,041 --> 00:30:32,916 And we just haven't been able to really find out the answer. 535 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,166 And he said, give me one moment. 536 00:30:35,166 --> 00:30:39,458 And he pulled out his phone and he said, What's your email? 537 00:30:39,541 --> 00:30:42,458 And the person said, Ah, And they shared their email address. 538 00:30:42,458 --> 00:30:43,791 They were a little caught off guard. 539 00:30:43,791 --> 00:30:49,250 And he said, I'm sending an email to the head of experience 540 00:30:49,250 --> 00:30:52,958 at Virgin Cruises and copying you, 541 00:30:53,041 --> 00:30:58,041 asking that person to answer your question and get everything sorted out. 542 00:30:58,125 --> 00:31:01,541 It's been sent. 543 00:31:01,583 --> 00:31:05,125 And I thought to myself, Here's a billionaire 544 00:31:05,208 --> 00:31:08,666 who's eating his lunch, 545 00:31:08,750 --> 00:31:10,625 who is taking the time 546 00:31:10,625 --> 00:31:13,583 to create a remarkable experience 547 00:31:13,583 --> 00:31:16,333 for a customer that is a one off. 548 00:31:16,333 --> 00:31:18,916 This isn't going to improve the entire cruise line. 549 00:31:18,916 --> 00:31:21,416 This isn't a systemic enhancement. 550 00:31:21,416 --> 00:31:25,500 This is going to improve the experience of one person. 551 00:31:25,583 --> 00:31:26,875 And in that moment, on days, 552 00:31:26,875 --> 00:31:30,833 I realized what I believe has been the secret to his success. 553 00:31:30,916 --> 00:31:35,125 That is, even though he has grown to I think there are over 400 companies 554 00:31:35,250 --> 00:31:39,250 in the Virgin universe, He's still committed 555 00:31:39,500 --> 00:31:44,708 to the remarkable experience of an individual customer. 556 00:31:44,791 --> 00:31:47,791 It's it's hugely inspiring. 557 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,041 And at the same time, to me, it raises a question, 558 00:31:52,125 --> 00:31:55,541 which is what is the definition 559 00:31:55,625 --> 00:31:58,458 of the ideal leader? 560 00:31:58,458 --> 00:32:02,583 Because there's this example where, you know, the leader 561 00:32:02,583 --> 00:32:05,958 of a large organization goes and taps 562 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,791 a senior staff member, 563 00:32:08,791 --> 00:32:12,458 ask them to help a customer. 564 00:32:12,541 --> 00:32:14,250 There is more extreme examples 565 00:32:14,250 --> 00:32:19,083 in Elon Musk's biography where and he, 566 00:32:19,083 --> 00:32:22,750 you know, he's still living, so it's technically half a biography. 567 00:32:22,833 --> 00:32:27,375 So where he he's extremely 568 00:32:27,458 --> 00:32:29,458 attentive to detail 569 00:32:29,458 --> 00:32:33,541 to the point of micromanaging everyone around him. 570 00:32:33,625 --> 00:32:36,875 And the question for me is, 571 00:32:36,958 --> 00:32:39,375 at what point 572 00:32:39,375 --> 00:32:44,958 is the model of a servant leader, 573 00:32:45,041 --> 00:32:47,791 allowed, if at all, 574 00:32:47,791 --> 00:32:51,583 to be so attentive to detail that they immerse 575 00:32:51,583 --> 00:32:56,375 themselves too much into the business and start creating some 576 00:32:56,458 --> 00:32:58,791 disruption or chaos? 577 00:32:58,791 --> 00:33:02,083 Or is that maybe setting the right example? 578 00:33:02,166 --> 00:33:05,166 Like I don't have an answer, I'm wondering if you do. 579 00:33:05,166 --> 00:33:07,083 Well, I don't know that I have an answer. 580 00:33:07,083 --> 00:33:08,583 I certainly have some thoughts. 581 00:33:08,583 --> 00:33:13,541 And I think at the end of the day, being a leader is a balance. 582 00:33:13,625 --> 00:33:17,916 It's a balance between setting a vision and being strategic 583 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,166 with acting tactically and specifically. 584 00:33:21,166 --> 00:33:24,666 It's a balance of where are we going as an organization, where are we going 585 00:33:24,666 --> 00:33:28,875 as a culture, and where are we right now in this moment? 586 00:33:28,958 --> 00:33:32,708 It's also a balance of where have we been and what have we learned 587 00:33:32,708 --> 00:33:35,708 and what has brought us to this moment. 588 00:33:35,916 --> 00:33:38,583 What I really loved about this interaction 589 00:33:38,583 --> 00:33:44,208 that I observed with Sir Richard Branson was that 590 00:33:44,250 --> 00:33:46,958 he helped the customer, 591 00:33:46,958 --> 00:33:50,000 but he also sent a very clear message to his team. 592 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,250 He didn't say, do this. 593 00:33:52,250 --> 00:33:55,291 He didn't say, get them a better room. 594 00:33:55,291 --> 00:33:58,291 He didn't say connect them in this, solve this problem. 595 00:33:58,416 --> 00:34:03,166 He just said, as I understand it, the way he related it, I didn't see the email, 596 00:34:03,208 --> 00:34:05,791 help these people 597 00:34:05,791 --> 00:34:08,458 with their question. 598 00:34:08,458 --> 00:34:10,833 What I felt that does is 599 00:34:10,833 --> 00:34:15,208 it sends a very clear message to the leadership in his team 600 00:34:15,291 --> 00:34:18,458 that their goal should be to always be helping, 601 00:34:18,541 --> 00:34:21,958 to always be finding opportunities to enhance the experience, 602 00:34:22,208 --> 00:34:27,458 and that if he's willing to do this and live this in his personal life, 603 00:34:27,541 --> 00:34:30,375 hopefully his leaders should be willing to do this. 604 00:34:30,375 --> 00:34:34,041 And by default their direct reports will see them doing this. 605 00:34:34,125 --> 00:34:37,125 And this is how you have an organization 606 00:34:37,125 --> 00:34:40,333 that is driven by the concept of experience 607 00:34:40,416 --> 00:34:44,458 as opposed to driven by the bottom line or driven by the 608 00:34:44,458 --> 00:34:48,416 more data elements of, 609 00:34:48,625 --> 00:34:53,666 Well, as long as we achieved the result, how we got there doesn't matter. 610 00:34:53,750 --> 00:34:54,083 Right. 611 00:34:54,083 --> 00:34:58,375 So it's the is the leader who has 612 00:34:58,458 --> 00:35:02,000 to stay behind the scenes and coach, 613 00:35:02,083 --> 00:35:05,833 but from time to time has to jump in 614 00:35:05,916 --> 00:35:08,833 and set an example. 615 00:35:08,833 --> 00:35:12,083 In that case, for excellent customer service. 616 00:35:12,166 --> 00:35:13,333 Absolutely. 617 00:35:13,333 --> 00:35:15,875 We happened to, one additional aside. 618 00:35:15,875 --> 00:35:23,000 We happened to be at his private island in the Caribbean, Necker Island, 619 00:35:23,083 --> 00:35:26,375 and not at this meal, but at another meal. 620 00:35:26,458 --> 00:35:29,375 I saw him get up when he was done 621 00:35:29,375 --> 00:35:32,083 and pick up his plate 622 00:35:32,083 --> 00:35:35,500 and walk it over to the server 623 00:35:35,583 --> 00:35:39,833 instead of leaving it on the table for the server to collect. 624 00:35:39,916 --> 00:35:42,916 And again, I observed this and I thought to myself, 625 00:35:42,958 --> 00:35:46,666 Here's someone who 626 00:35:46,750 --> 00:35:48,375 does not see themselves 627 00:35:48,375 --> 00:35:52,250 as above the other members of the team. 628 00:35:52,333 --> 00:35:54,708 Now, some might say, well, he was 629 00:35:54,708 --> 00:35:58,458 he was taking that server's opportunity to clear his plate. 630 00:35:58,541 --> 00:36:02,500 I don't think the server was thinking, I wish I had more opportunities 631 00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:03,958 to clear plates. 632 00:36:03,958 --> 00:36:07,833 I think the message that he was sending in that moment is 633 00:36:07,916 --> 00:36:10,333 I want to help wherever I can. 634 00:36:10,333 --> 00:36:13,583 And at least that has for many years 635 00:36:13,666 --> 00:36:16,000 I've tried to adopt that as my own philosophy 636 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:20,333 that I don't want to micromanage, but I would never want anyone on my team 637 00:36:20,333 --> 00:36:23,750 to feel like I'm asking them to do something that I wouldn't 638 00:36:23,750 --> 00:36:27,708 be willing to do myself or that I haven't done myself, 639 00:36:27,791 --> 00:36:33,166 and that I am always available to them to do the things that maybe are beyond the 640 00:36:33,166 --> 00:36:37,458 scope of what they can do, the resources they can access, the phone calls 641 00:36:37,458 --> 00:36:41,166 they can make that I might be able to do more easily. 642 00:36:41,291 --> 00:36:45,041 I try to be available in that context for them. 643 00:36:45,125 --> 00:36:49,000 Loving to serve others 644 00:36:49,083 --> 00:36:52,083 is something we don't get taught, 645 00:36:52,125 --> 00:36:54,916 but it's something that 646 00:36:54,958 --> 00:36:56,791 elevates all of us, 647 00:36:56,791 --> 00:37:00,791 both the person being served and the person doing the serving. 648 00:37:00,791 --> 00:37:04,833 I learned this from one of my mentors 649 00:37:04,833 --> 00:37:11,291 that I have the utmost regard for, Warren Rustin, who, 650 00:37:11,375 --> 00:37:15,125 said something along the lines of We need to 651 00:37:15,208 --> 00:37:17,916 love to live, love to learn 652 00:37:17,916 --> 00:37:21,666 and love to serve. 653 00:37:21,750 --> 00:37:24,041 And the other thing that 654 00:37:24,041 --> 00:37:28,791 your story reminded me of is how powerful 655 00:37:28,875 --> 00:37:31,708 is for each of us to be driven 656 00:37:31,708 --> 00:37:35,250 by our values, to 657 00:37:35,333 --> 00:37:37,541 be extremely resolute 658 00:37:37,541 --> 00:37:42,958 because it requires extreme resolution of what our values are. 659 00:37:43,041 --> 00:37:47,291 And so, you know, even if you are a billionaire 660 00:37:47,291 --> 00:37:51,708 and your value is, let's say, you know, I, 661 00:37:51,791 --> 00:37:56,416 I love to serve or I love to 662 00:37:56,500 --> 00:37:58,583 just do my my due 663 00:37:58,583 --> 00:38:04,875 to take the plate and just offer it to, you know, 664 00:38:04,958 --> 00:38:05,333 just, 665 00:38:05,333 --> 00:38:08,333 you know, take care of it, essentially. 666 00:38:08,333 --> 00:38:12,125 But the importance of values, 667 00:38:12,125 --> 00:38:15,458 we talk about it at work, 668 00:38:15,541 --> 00:38:19,958 but we don't talk about it enough on a personal level. 669 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,791 And I think the very few people around us 670 00:38:23,875 --> 00:38:28,791 relatively speaking, who are very resolute about their values, 671 00:38:28,875 --> 00:38:32,416 these are the really charismatic 672 00:38:32,500 --> 00:38:35,416 leaders and role models. 673 00:38:35,416 --> 00:38:36,250 I agree. 674 00:38:36,250 --> 00:38:40,708 And what I think is challenging about 675 00:38:40,791 --> 00:38:45,791 being driven by your values and living by your values is two things. 676 00:38:45,791 --> 00:38:48,791 Number one, we have to get clear on what our values are. 677 00:38:48,916 --> 00:38:52,041 And in my experience, getting clear on what our values are 678 00:38:52,041 --> 00:38:56,250 usually comes from making mistakes that go outside the bounds. 679 00:38:56,250 --> 00:38:58,166 And we eventually course correct to say no. 680 00:38:58,166 --> 00:39:01,166 Actually, my value is this because of this consequence, 681 00:39:01,250 --> 00:39:05,166 this experience, this mistake I made, something I felt. 682 00:39:05,250 --> 00:39:06,500 But then once we get 683 00:39:06,500 --> 00:39:10,708 clear on our values, we have to recognize that 684 00:39:10,708 --> 00:39:13,708 the only thing we can control 685 00:39:13,875 --> 00:39:18,500 is our effort to live by our values. 686 00:39:18,583 --> 00:39:22,333 Even in a world and in an environment where our values 687 00:39:22,416 --> 00:39:25,458 may not be accepted by others. 688 00:39:25,583 --> 00:39:30,416 In fact, our values may be challenged by others as being foolish 689 00:39:30,625 --> 00:39:34,666 or foolhardy or negative or not the good way to go. 690 00:39:34,875 --> 00:39:36,375 I had an experience last week. 691 00:39:36,375 --> 00:39:39,458 I was giving a speech, and whenever I give a speech 692 00:39:39,458 --> 00:39:42,458 at the end of the speech, I like to give prizes to the audience. 693 00:39:42,666 --> 00:39:44,416 So I said, Here's the chance. 694 00:39:44,416 --> 00:39:46,291 I want to give some prizes to the audience, 695 00:39:46,291 --> 00:39:49,291 but there's so many of you here, I can't hand them out in person. 696 00:39:49,541 --> 00:39:53,458 So what I'd like you to do is text this number 697 00:39:53,541 --> 00:39:55,291 and give me your email address 698 00:39:55,291 --> 00:40:00,083 and then I will send you the prizes. 699 00:40:00,166 --> 00:40:03,166 And then I said very clearly, by the way, 700 00:40:03,375 --> 00:40:06,875 this does not mean you're being added to an email list. 701 00:40:06,958 --> 00:40:10,708 This does not mean that now I'm going to email you a newsletter every week. 702 00:40:10,708 --> 00:40:14,208 This is not mean that I'm going to email you four emails, 703 00:40:14,208 --> 00:40:17,208 and then the fifth email is going to be asking you to buy something. 704 00:40:17,416 --> 00:40:20,291 You are going to get two emails from me. 705 00:40:20,291 --> 00:40:23,666 Email number one is when I send you these items, 706 00:40:23,750 --> 00:40:25,375 because when I send you these free 707 00:40:25,375 --> 00:40:29,083 gifts, I'm also going to ask you to complete a survey. 708 00:40:29,166 --> 00:40:32,000 And if you complete the survey, you have the chance 709 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,000 to win more prizes. 710 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,208 The second email will be when I send you 711 00:40:37,208 --> 00:40:40,208 the email with the more prizes. 712 00:40:40,208 --> 00:40:42,708 If you choose to complete the survey, you're not required 713 00:40:42,708 --> 00:40:45,708 to complete the survey to get the prize, you get the prize with the first email. 714 00:40:45,875 --> 00:40:49,416 But if you share your thoughts and share your feelings about my presentation, 715 00:40:49,625 --> 00:40:53,458 I will give you a second email and that will be it. 716 00:40:53,541 --> 00:40:57,208 There will be no more additional emails. 717 00:40:57,291 --> 00:40:58,083 Someone came up to 718 00:40:58,083 --> 00:41:01,750 me after the speech and said, I have a problem with your speech. 719 00:41:01,833 --> 00:41:04,625 I said, this is exciting and interesting. 720 00:41:04,625 --> 00:41:06,916 Not always the feedback I get after a speech. 721 00:41:06,916 --> 00:41:08,541 And I said, What's your problem? 722 00:41:08,541 --> 00:41:13,583 And they said, You should be sending more emails. 723 00:41:13,666 --> 00:41:17,208 And I said, I appreciate that, 724 00:41:17,291 --> 00:41:20,000 but it's not a decision I've decided to make. 725 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,833 I've decided to only send, as I shared 726 00:41:23,916 --> 00:41:27,916 the two emails, and you're really only guaranteed to get one. 727 00:41:27,916 --> 00:41:32,208 You only get the second one if you say, I would like the second email 728 00:41:32,291 --> 00:41:34,083 and then that's it. 729 00:41:34,083 --> 00:41:38,708 And this person said, You're leaving money on the table. 730 00:41:38,791 --> 00:41:42,041 And I said, That very well may be the case. 731 00:41:42,041 --> 00:41:45,500 And in fact, statistically, I will agree with you 732 00:41:45,583 --> 00:41:49,000 that I am leaving money and opportunity on the table. 733 00:41:49,083 --> 00:41:52,208 But I think I am gaining more 734 00:41:52,291 --> 00:41:52,875 by my 735 00:41:52,875 --> 00:41:57,000 approach than I would by a different approach. 736 00:41:57,083 --> 00:42:01,041 So thank you for your suggestion. 737 00:42:01,125 --> 00:42:02,958 And I think you're just being true to yourself. 738 00:42:02,958 --> 00:42:05,000 Right. And that's golden. Exactly. 739 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:06,500 And that works for me. 740 00:42:06,500 --> 00:42:09,833 Now, has my business grown as quickly as it could 741 00:42:10,041 --> 00:42:13,041 if I sent everyone ten emails a year? 742 00:42:13,208 --> 00:42:15,166 No, of course not. 743 00:42:15,166 --> 00:42:17,750 But I'm okay with that. 744 00:42:17,750 --> 00:42:23,333 So, Joey, when it comes to workplaces 745 00:42:23,416 --> 00:42:26,125 and given everything we discussed and onboarding process 746 00:42:26,125 --> 00:42:31,708 and engagement, thoughtful or unthoughtful leaders, what do you think 747 00:42:31,791 --> 00:42:35,750 we should be more conscious about? 748 00:42:35,833 --> 00:42:38,000 What should leaders be more intentional 749 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,666 about when it comes to workplaces and workplace culture? 750 00:42:41,750 --> 00:42:43,708 I think there's a couple of things that leaders 751 00:42:43,708 --> 00:42:46,833 could be more intentional about and I'll rattle off a few. 752 00:42:46,833 --> 00:42:49,375 And if any of these seem interesting, I'm happy to dive deeper. 753 00:42:49,375 --> 00:42:50,458 Number one, 754 00:42:50,458 --> 00:42:55,750 we need to elevate the role of people and teams in our organizational structures. 755 00:42:55,833 --> 00:42:59,875 Many organizations have a chief marketing officer, a chief sales officer, 756 00:42:59,875 --> 00:43:03,750 a chief technology officer, a chief executive officer, and then 757 00:43:03,833 --> 00:43:06,791 a director of human resources. 758 00:43:06,791 --> 00:43:09,041 We need to elevate the people element. 759 00:43:09,041 --> 00:43:12,708 And I know there are some organizations that have a CHRO 760 00:43:12,833 --> 00:43:16,708 or a chief people officer, but they are few and far between. 761 00:43:16,791 --> 00:43:19,041 The language we use matters. 762 00:43:19,041 --> 00:43:22,666 Number two, we need to think more strategically about 763 00:43:22,666 --> 00:43:27,000 the personal and emotional connections we're trying to create with our teams. 764 00:43:27,083 --> 00:43:31,916 We have lived for many, many years, decades with this fiction 765 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,416 that there is work and there is personal life. 766 00:43:35,500 --> 00:43:39,416 And as businesses, as corporations, as employers, we thought nothing 767 00:43:39,500 --> 00:43:42,208 about asking an employee to stay late at work. 768 00:43:42,208 --> 00:43:45,791 We thought nothing about asking an employee to take the conference call 769 00:43:45,791 --> 00:43:46,833 while they're on vacation. 770 00:43:46,833 --> 00:43:51,291 We've thought nothing of sending an employee an email at 3:00 771 00:43:51,291 --> 00:43:53,291 in the morning on Saturday and expecting them 772 00:43:53,291 --> 00:43:56,708 to respond over the weekend before they come back to work on Monday. 773 00:43:56,791 --> 00:44:00,000 As organizations, we thought nothing of that. 774 00:44:00,083 --> 00:44:03,000 And yet when an employee works remotely, our fear 775 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,750 is, well, are they doing their laundry when they should be working? 776 00:44:06,833 --> 00:44:08,500 What if they're watching a show? 777 00:44:08,500 --> 00:44:09,875 What if they leave their desk? 778 00:44:09,875 --> 00:44:11,791 Can they go outside to play with their child? 779 00:44:11,791 --> 00:44:13,250 This is offensive. 780 00:44:13,250 --> 00:44:16,750 We thought nothing of having work creep into their personal lives. 781 00:44:16,916 --> 00:44:20,541 But the moment there's even any possibility that their personal life 782 00:44:20,750 --> 00:44:25,750 might creep into the work hours, we become uncomfortable 783 00:44:25,791 --> 00:44:29,875 and almost offended in many instance., 784 00:44:29,958 --> 00:44:32,375 I think that's a fundamental problem. 785 00:44:32,375 --> 00:44:37,125 I think organizations need to employ someone who every day 786 00:44:37,125 --> 00:44:41,958 when they wake up their prime directive is, What can I do today 787 00:44:42,041 --> 00:44:46,125 to make this the best company in the world to work for? 788 00:44:46,208 --> 00:44:50,000 What can I do today to make the employees love 789 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:54,875 coming to work, love engaging at work, feeling fulfilled in what they do? 790 00:44:54,958 --> 00:44:57,000 In the typical organization, the H.R. 791 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,166 department is about compliance, 792 00:45:00,250 --> 00:45:02,916 is about benefits administration, 793 00:45:02,916 --> 00:45:05,708 and is about making sure that the organization doesn't 794 00:45:05,708 --> 00:45:11,416 step itself into a lawsuit or a claim against the organization. 795 00:45:11,500 --> 00:45:14,458 The way we change that is with our leaders. 796 00:45:14,458 --> 00:45:16,916 Leaders need to be committed 797 00:45:16,916 --> 00:45:20,125 to creating personal and emotional connection 798 00:45:20,208 --> 00:45:23,458 with the people they work with, and not just the people 799 00:45:23,458 --> 00:45:27,416 who are in their immediate circle of coworkers and colleagues, 800 00:45:27,500 --> 00:45:30,666 but people throughout the organization. 801 00:45:30,750 --> 00:45:33,958 When we have personal and emotional connection, when we work 802 00:45:34,125 --> 00:45:38,958 with our friends, it's a lot more difficult to quit. 803 00:45:39,041 --> 00:45:40,791 You can quit a job. 804 00:45:40,791 --> 00:45:43,166 It's hard to quit a friend. 805 00:45:43,166 --> 00:45:46,166 You can dread going into work. 806 00:45:46,375 --> 00:45:50,291 You don't usually dread spending time with your friends. 807 00:45:50,375 --> 00:45:54,875 I think there's an opportunity to us for us to think more strategically 808 00:45:54,875 --> 00:45:59,666 and intentionally about those type of connections we create in the workplace. 809 00:45:59,750 --> 00:46:03,916 Joey, your your words are music to my ears, to say the least. 810 00:46:03,916 --> 00:46:08,833 And given you're a voracious reader, 811 00:46:08,916 --> 00:46:11,416 is there a book you would recommend? 812 00:46:11,416 --> 00:46:15,458 Whether it's relevant to how we should rethink culture 813 00:46:15,458 --> 00:46:19,416 or just any topic you are passionate about at the moment. 814 00:46:19,500 --> 00:46:22,458 Well, as I mentioned, I have a or as you mentioned, rather, 815 00:46:22,458 --> 00:46:26,125 I have a tendency to be reading many books at or near the same time. 816 00:46:26,125 --> 00:46:28,291 I usually have about three or four books going. 817 00:46:28,291 --> 00:46:29,625 It's the way my brain works. 818 00:46:29,625 --> 00:46:32,625 I don't necessarily recommend this as a strategy. 819 00:46:32,750 --> 00:46:36,291 But one general comment about how I choose 820 00:46:36,291 --> 00:46:39,750 the books to read and then two specific recommendations. 821 00:46:39,833 --> 00:46:43,375 As a business owner and someone who aspires to be a business 822 00:46:43,375 --> 00:46:48,333 leader, I do my best to alternate 823 00:46:48,416 --> 00:46:50,750 and not always read business books. 824 00:46:50,750 --> 00:46:55,500 I try to read one business book and then one fiction book and then back 825 00:46:55,500 --> 00:46:59,375 to another nonfiction book and then back to another fiction book. Why? 826 00:46:59,583 --> 00:47:03,250 Because I think the best way to learn about humans 827 00:47:03,291 --> 00:47:07,291 other than interacting with humans is to read fiction. 828 00:47:07,375 --> 00:47:10,625 Because fiction increases our opportunity for empathy. 829 00:47:10,625 --> 00:47:14,500 It increases our opportunity to see perspectives outside of our own. 830 00:47:14,500 --> 00:47:16,916 It helps our brain to do better at that. 831 00:47:16,916 --> 00:47:21,375 So a fiction book I just recently finished, which was absolutely delightful, 832 00:47:21,625 --> 00:47:24,583 is a book called The Gentleman in Moscow 833 00:47:24,583 --> 00:47:28,250 by Amor Towles, T-O-W-L-E-S. 834 00:47:28,333 --> 00:47:31,041 It is a fantastic story about a gentleman 835 00:47:31,041 --> 00:47:35,541 living in a hotel in Moscow, and it tracks his time there. 836 00:47:35,541 --> 00:47:39,791 The interactions he has with the employees of the hotel, the guests of the hotel, 837 00:47:39,958 --> 00:47:43,041 people inside the hotel, and people outside the hotel. 838 00:47:43,166 --> 00:47:46,166 It's beautifully written and a lovely piece of fiction. 839 00:47:46,250 --> 00:47:51,458 On the nonfiction side, I'm about halfway through a book called Never Enough: 840 00:47:51,541 --> 00:47:55,666 When Achievement Culture Becomes Toxic and What We Can Do About It. 841 00:47:55,750 --> 00:47:58,958 It's written by a woman named Jennifer Breheny Wallace. 842 00:47:59,041 --> 00:48:02,333 And the entire book, at least the first half that I read, 843 00:48:02,500 --> 00:48:06,250 is all about how we are driving children 844 00:48:06,291 --> 00:48:09,916 to succeed, to get great grades in school, to go to the best 845 00:48:09,916 --> 00:48:13,541 universities, to be involved in as many organizations as possible. 846 00:48:13,708 --> 00:48:15,291 I'm reading this for a couple of reasons. 847 00:48:15,291 --> 00:48:18,541 Number one, I'm a parent and I want to have a better 848 00:48:18,541 --> 00:48:21,708 understanding of my parenting as it relates to my children. 849 00:48:21,750 --> 00:48:25,541 Number two, I'm a member of a society and I want to have a better understanding 850 00:48:25,583 --> 00:48:29,166 of the culture that we are creating globally with this drive. 851 00:48:29,166 --> 00:48:31,000 And number three, as an employer, 852 00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,833 I want to have a better understanding of young people entering the workforce. 853 00:48:34,916 --> 00:48:39,333 What they've grown up in, in terms of this push for more to achieve 854 00:48:39,333 --> 00:48:43,416 more, to have more line items on the resumé to succeed more, how 855 00:48:43,416 --> 00:48:48,666 that will affect their ability to perform within an organizational structure. 856 00:48:48,750 --> 00:48:51,291 And so those are two books that I would recommend that 857 00:48:51,291 --> 00:48:54,625 I'm enjoying reading or just having finished right now. 858 00:48:54,708 --> 00:48:56,458 Thank you. Thank you, Joey. 859 00:48:56,458 --> 00:48:59,458 And just as we wrap, a final question for you, 860 00:48:59,666 --> 00:49:05,500 which of the three facts is a lie and what are the truths? 861 00:49:05,583 --> 00:49:06,083 Okay. 862 00:49:06,083 --> 00:49:11,500 So the first one was I've been on the International Space Station, No way. 863 00:49:11,500 --> 00:49:13,500 and that is true. 864 00:49:13,500 --> 00:49:16,875 However, I was on the space station 865 00:49:16,958 --> 00:49:19,625 before it was launched into space. 866 00:49:19,625 --> 00:49:23,500 I had the opportunity to tour the modules for the space station 867 00:49:23,666 --> 00:49:26,666 when they were being built and set up 868 00:49:26,708 --> 00:49:30,541 at the Houston Space Center here in the United States. 869 00:49:30,750 --> 00:49:34,708 Number two, I've been nominated for a Grammy. 870 00:49:34,791 --> 00:49:36,750 That is also true. 871 00:49:36,750 --> 00:49:38,625 The group that I sang with 872 00:49:38,625 --> 00:49:41,666 in Washington, D.C., has actually been nominated for several. 873 00:49:41,666 --> 00:49:45,416 We never won any Grammys, but we were indeed nominated. 874 00:49:45,625 --> 00:49:50,666 The last idea or the last statement I had offered is I've performed in concert 875 00:49:50,750 --> 00:49:54,708 on all seven continents as a singer. 876 00:49:54,791 --> 00:49:56,333 That's not true. 877 00:49:56,333 --> 00:50:00,625 I've only done performances on two continents, multiple countries, 878 00:50:00,625 --> 00:50:04,458 probably north of 15, but not all seven continents. 879 00:50:04,458 --> 00:50:07,041 I've had the pleasure of visiting all seven continents. 880 00:50:07,041 --> 00:50:11,625 I've had the pleasure of being on stage as a speaker, on all seven continents. 881 00:50:11,833 --> 00:50:14,708 But I've never had the pleasure of singing 882 00:50:14,708 --> 00:50:17,458 in a concert on all seven continents. 883 00:50:17,458 --> 00:50:20,458 So it's something to potentially work on for the future. 884 00:50:20,708 --> 00:50:25,666 So, Joey, maybe next time you can talk to us more about your artistic side. 885 00:50:25,750 --> 00:50:28,625 It sounds like you have a lot more going over there. 886 00:50:28,625 --> 00:50:33,666 Thank you for your 887 00:50:33,750 --> 00:50:34,666 authenticity, I 888 00:50:34,666 --> 00:50:39,416 would start with, your energy, your enthusiasm, your passion 889 00:50:39,416 --> 00:50:43,583 for the human condition, which 890 00:50:43,666 --> 00:50:45,708 is rare to find. 891 00:50:45,708 --> 00:50:48,791 And thank you for sharing your insights with us. 892 00:50:48,791 --> 00:50:52,750 And I hope we get a second chance to hear lots more about, 893 00:50:52,750 --> 00:50:56,500 you know, working with people 894 00:50:56,500 --> 00:51:00,208 evolving beyond H.R. 895 00:51:00,208 --> 00:51:03,416 and just being true to ourselves. 896 00:51:03,500 --> 00:51:04,291 Thank you, Andreas. 897 00:51:04,291 --> 00:51:07,000 And thanks to everybody who watched or listened in. 898 00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:10,791 I hope you've had as much fun listening in as I've had talking with you, Andreas. 899 00:51:10,875 --> 00:51:13,875 Thank you again for having me on the show. 900 00:51:13,875 --> 00:51:16,375 And to everyone listening, thank you. 901 00:51:16,375 --> 00:51:20,791 Do hit the subscribe button so you don't miss the next episodes. 902 00:51:20,791 --> 00:51:26,500 And don't forget to tell us what you think by emailing rethink@rethinkculture.co. 903 00:51:26,500 --> 00:51:28,875 And keep leading.