WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.156 --> 00:00:02.166 Michele: Hey, welcome back to Software Social. 00:00:02.946 --> 00:00:07.116 A couple months ago, I did two interviews with Jesse Hanley, founder of Bento. 00:00:07.626 --> 00:00:12.936 You probably remember his incredible story of going from bodybuilder to SaaS founder, 00:00:13.296 --> 00:00:17.706 and the heartbreak that he and his wife experienced last year with their daughter, 00:00:17.706 --> 00:00:24.543 Leah, but we didn't talk too much about what his company, so let's fix that. 00:00:25.593 --> 00:00:29.043 Bento is an email marketing and automation company for more 00:00:29.043 --> 00:00:30.783 technical- minded marketers. 00:00:31.443 --> 00:00:35.703 If you're using drip MailChimp or Active Campaign, but wish it was a 00:00:35.703 --> 00:00:40.023 bit more developer friendly, Bento's the email product for you with 00:00:40.023 --> 00:00:44.883 libraries for Ruby, Larval, Node, and JavaScript, Bento can help you 00:00:44.883 --> 00:00:46.713 create your dream customer journey. 00:00:47.733 --> 00:00:51.993 Plus you get access to an amazing community on Discord where you'll get 00:00:51.993 --> 00:00:54.273 direct access to Jesse and his team. 00:00:55.273 --> 00:01:01.106 You might say it's friendly developer- friendly email marketing, and Jessie's 00:01:01.106 --> 00:01:04.196 happy to help anyone tighten up their marketing in a free session. 00:01:04.556 --> 00:01:09.536 Just go to bento now.com, and hit book a demo and mention Software Social. 00:01:10.039 --> 00:01:10.969 Hey Colleen. 00:01:10.979 --> 00:01:11.969 Colleen: Hey Michelle. 00:01:13.219 --> 00:01:19.339 Michele: We just got back from and amazing week in beautiful San 00:01:19.339 --> 00:01:21.049 Diego, California visiting you. 00:01:21.399 --> 00:01:21.999 Colleen: Yep. 00:01:22.503 --> 00:01:27.206 Michele: So much to like talk about after that, I feel like we have so 00:01:27.206 --> 00:01:33.856 much like, we have so much wind in our sails after that, um, have some kind 00:01:33.856 --> 00:01:36.106 of big things happening for both of us. 00:01:36.106 --> 00:01:40.026 That, to a certain extent, we kind of like haven't done before 00:01:40.026 --> 00:01:41.856 or like really need to focus on. 00:01:42.262 --> 00:01:45.232 I'm kinda excited to talk about that a lot. 00:01:45.817 --> 00:01:46.267 Colleen: Yeah. 00:01:46.297 --> 00:01:46.837 me too. 00:01:46.837 --> 00:01:49.867 It was so amazing to have you here and see you in person. 00:01:50.287 --> 00:01:53.107 And there's just something you can not replicate about 00:01:53.107 --> 00:01:54.427 seeing your friends in person. 00:01:55.030 --> 00:01:55.540 Michele: Yeah. 00:01:55.630 --> 00:01:56.950 Oh yeah, absolutely. 00:01:57.460 --> 00:02:02.250 Um, okay, so the first one, and so we've been talking about 00:02:02.250 --> 00:02:05.960 how you have now four months, 00:02:06.265 --> 00:02:08.055 Colleen: oh, wait, what did I lose, 00:02:09.565 --> 00:02:09.845 wait. 00:02:09.860 --> 00:02:15.560 Michele: April now, so far, you know, till till August right to get Hammer 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:19.460 stone, which is actually called Refine, or is it, is it Refine or Refine? 00:02:19.955 --> 00:02:20.915 Colleen: I mean, I, I say. 00:02:21.663 --> 00:02:22.173 Michele: Refine. 00:02:22.203 --> 00:02:22.623 Okay. 00:02:22.758 --> 00:02:23.838 Colleen: Cause you're refining. 00:02:24.183 --> 00:02:26.073 Michele: Monies, you don't have to go back to consulting. 00:02:26.223 --> 00:02:29.953 Um, and so that's four months from now. 00:02:29.953 --> 00:02:36.933 And so we were walking in beautiful San Diego, and you mentioned how there is 00:02:36.933 --> 00:02:42.778 a Refine plugin thing for Laravel Nova, so like we could use it, which like Nova 00:02:42.778 --> 00:02:45.928 is like the admin basically for Laravel. 00:02:46.648 --> 00:02:49.528 And I like didn't even know about it. 00:02:49.528 --> 00:02:52.078 And honestly, I'm kind of mad like that. 00:02:52.078 --> 00:02:55.768 Like, I, you had this thing, I didn't even know about it and I 00:02:55.768 --> 00:02:57.298 like could have bought it from you. 00:02:57.298 --> 00:03:00.038 And I'm like, dude, tell people about 00:03:00.378 --> 00:03:01.428 Colleen: Yeah. 00:03:01.925 --> 00:03:08.970 Um, it did not even occur to me that we should be telling people about 00:03:08.970 --> 00:03:11.970 it, which sounds so ridiculous, now that I say the words out loud. 00:03:12.815 --> 00:03:15.845 Michele: If you want to sell stuff, you have to tell people about it. 00:03:15.945 --> 00:03:16.755 Colleen: Oh my goodness. 00:03:16.755 --> 00:03:17.355 It's so bad. 00:03:17.355 --> 00:03:17.655 Yeah. 00:03:17.895 --> 00:03:21.855 I think because some of our front end, some of our, like other products, like our 00:03:21.855 --> 00:03:25.695 Laravel of EHL product, not in Nova, we're still working on the front end and our 00:03:25.695 --> 00:03:27.945 Rails product is not ready to ship yet. 00:03:28.395 --> 00:03:33.075 That, I almost forgot that in all of these products we have, we have one 00:03:33.075 --> 00:03:37.695 that is actually done and that we can actually sell to you right now. 00:03:38.195 --> 00:03:39.065 Michele: And I already bought it. 00:03:39.235 --> 00:03:40.105 Colleen: And you already bought it. 00:03:40.915 --> 00:03:42.595 That is in fact amazing. 00:03:42.905 --> 00:03:44.345 Michele: We haven't actually installed it yet. 00:03:44.345 --> 00:03:46.325 I think we're still kind of catching up from 00:03:46.855 --> 00:03:47.335 Colleen: Right. 00:03:47.345 --> 00:03:51.435 Michele: Being away for a week, but I'm super excited to give it a try. 00:03:51.855 --> 00:03:55.755 I think we even talked about maybe doing like a video, um, 00:03:56.535 --> 00:04:00.595 like hybrid episode where like you and Erin, walk me through it, I 00:04:00.595 --> 00:04:03.375 guess maybe like, I think we have it on our like, test environment. 00:04:03.375 --> 00:04:04.905 So like we could do something like that. 00:04:05.405 --> 00:04:05.825 Colleen: Yes, 00:04:05.895 --> 00:04:06.975 Michele: would be really fun. 00:04:07.025 --> 00:04:07.835 Colleen: I think that'd be fun. 00:04:07.835 --> 00:04:08.915 And it'd be great for us. 00:04:08.915 --> 00:04:10.925 We can maybe use that as marketing material. 00:04:11.424 --> 00:04:11.874 Michele: Yeah. 00:04:12.299 --> 00:04:13.349 Colleen: I think that'd be awesome. 00:04:13.649 --> 00:04:15.209 I'd love to onboard you guys. 00:04:15.569 --> 00:04:16.019 Yay. 00:04:16.724 --> 00:04:18.794 Michele: But also when we were talking about as like, you know, 00:04:18.794 --> 00:04:21.114 you've been saying, okay, well, we've got, you know, the Laravel side 00:04:21.114 --> 00:04:22.244 and then we've got this rail side. 00:04:22.244 --> 00:04:25.777 And like, you guys are like building like all of the features, but I'm 00:04:25.777 --> 00:04:30.607 like, you could just sell this as a thing for Laravel Nova to start. 00:04:30.607 --> 00:04:35.007 You don't have to start with like, It has to be usable by the entire world. 00:04:35.087 --> 00:04:38.657 It could just for the foreseeable future, be something that is just a, 00:04:39.377 --> 00:04:43.847 you know, an add on feature to Nova and like there's certainly enough 00:04:43.937 --> 00:04:48.077 people in the Laravel world and enough people running sites with Nova like 00:04:48.867 --> 00:04:49.017 Colleen: Yeah. 00:04:49.097 --> 00:04:52.487 Michele: that, that could be a good little business. 00:04:52.487 --> 00:04:54.587 If not just something like to get you going. 00:04:55.207 --> 00:04:55.537 Colleen: Yeah. 00:04:55.597 --> 00:04:59.467 I mean, I can't believe it didn't occur to me until you said something. 00:04:59.917 --> 00:05:00.637 Absolutely. 00:05:00.637 --> 00:05:04.027 We should be talking about and selling the Nova integration. 00:05:04.237 --> 00:05:07.147 And I think what had happened with the Nova integration, um, Aaron 00:05:07.147 --> 00:05:10.297 could speak to this more, but I think it was like, he just made it real 00:05:10.297 --> 00:05:11.917 quick because someone wanted it. 00:05:12.097 --> 00:05:14.677 Cause it's just the front end that we had to get, get working. 00:05:14.677 --> 00:05:18.212 We already had all the backend stuff, so yeah, we haven't pushed that at all. 00:05:18.212 --> 00:05:19.922 We're not talking about that enough. 00:05:19.982 --> 00:05:21.182 We're not on our site. 00:05:21.182 --> 00:05:23.102 There's nothing like specific about that. 00:05:23.102 --> 00:05:26.612 We still have on our, our main site is still like sign up to 00:05:26.612 --> 00:05:28.412 hear about when Refine launches. 00:05:28.712 --> 00:05:32.539 So I feel like that's a super high priority is still 00:05:32.539 --> 00:05:33.709 that people know about that. 00:05:33.829 --> 00:05:35.119 And to start selling Nova. 00:05:35.617 --> 00:05:35.977 Michele: Yeah. 00:05:36.477 --> 00:05:36.867 Yeah. 00:05:37.363 --> 00:05:37.783 Colleen: Yeah. 00:05:38.653 --> 00:05:39.223 Do that. 00:05:39.283 --> 00:05:39.703 Right. 00:05:40.203 --> 00:05:40.543 Michele: do that 00:05:40.993 --> 00:05:41.803 Colleen: I do that now. 00:05:43.513 --> 00:05:43.843 Michele: Okay. 00:05:44.233 --> 00:05:44.803 Um, 00:05:46.963 --> 00:05:47.173 Colleen: Oh, 00:05:47.263 --> 00:05:48.613 Michele: I feel like that's some movie reference and I 00:05:48.613 --> 00:05:49.483 don't even know what it is. 00:05:49.823 --> 00:05:53.063 It's probably some movie like 20 years ago starting Will Ferrell or whatever. 00:05:53.123 --> 00:05:53.453 Okay. 00:05:53.973 --> 00:05:56.253 So yes, do that now. 00:05:56.283 --> 00:06:00.273 Um, sell it to people, tell them about it. 00:06:00.776 --> 00:06:02.606 Colleen: Yeah, we should be doing that. 00:06:03.086 --> 00:06:04.766 Like, this is just so obvious. 00:06:04.766 --> 00:06:04.916 I 00:06:04.966 --> 00:06:07.936 Michele: like this, like this cannot be like, you know, a sort of stereotypical, 00:06:07.936 --> 00:06:11.416 like developer thinks about marketing conversation, that's like, yes, we 00:06:11.416 --> 00:06:13.416 should mark it that, and then there's 00:06:13.416 --> 00:06:16.476 like, crickets, like, you gotta like, do it. 00:06:16.571 --> 00:06:18.221 Colleen: Let's talk about, oh no, I'm ready. 00:06:18.251 --> 00:06:19.361 I'm all in Michelle. 00:06:19.421 --> 00:06:20.711 I am like, ready. 00:06:20.711 --> 00:06:22.841 Aaron uses this term all the time, eat glass. 00:06:23.141 --> 00:06:24.311 I'm ready to eat the glass. 00:06:24.881 --> 00:06:27.641 It means, it means just grind out the hard stuff. 00:06:27.671 --> 00:06:28.631 Like just do it. 00:06:29.131 --> 00:06:30.721 Michele: I have never heard 00:06:32.821 --> 00:06:32.941 Colleen: He 00:06:33.091 --> 00:06:33.331 Michele: this. 00:06:33.331 --> 00:06:36.361 Some like Austin specific slang. 00:06:36.451 --> 00:06:37.921 Colleen: I don't know, maybe it's a Texas thing. 00:06:38.311 --> 00:06:40.171 Um, uh, 00:06:40.201 --> 00:06:40.801 Michele: Okay. 00:06:40.831 --> 00:06:42.991 That sounds pretty unpleasant, unpleasant, like 00:06:43.141 --> 00:06:46.561 Colleen: but the point is, instead of talking about 00:06:46.561 --> 00:06:48.331 doing things, you need to just 00:06:49.181 --> 00:06:50.681 Michele: Pedal to the metal, right? 00:06:51.858 --> 00:06:54.648 Colleen: So my take on this, the first thing to do would be either, would to 00:06:54.648 --> 00:06:56.508 be, to make a Nova specific landing page. 00:06:56.748 --> 00:07:00.438 I don't know if we have one because with three of us working on this, like 00:07:00.438 --> 00:07:04.608 there's a lot of, I don't have a lot of visibility and this is my own fault. 00:07:04.608 --> 00:07:06.408 And I'm literally going to fix this tomorrow. 00:07:06.858 --> 00:07:09.648 I don't actually know all of the moving pieces, cause we have so 00:07:09.648 --> 00:07:12.468 many moving pieces in this business, like, cause we have contractors 00:07:12.738 --> 00:07:14.608 and then we have three front ends. 00:07:14.608 --> 00:07:17.398 And then I have my client, which is technically a Hammer stone 00:07:17.398 --> 00:07:19.018 client, not a Colleen client. 00:07:19.498 --> 00:07:24.328 And so tomorrow I'm like, I am going to get organized and 00:07:24.828 --> 00:07:25.908 that's where I'm gonna start. 00:07:25.908 --> 00:07:29.508 And, um, yeah, figure out, like, make an actionable plan. 00:07:29.898 --> 00:07:33.798 Stuff we can actually do not just talk about to let people know 00:07:33.798 --> 00:07:35.748 about Nova and start selling it. 00:07:36.246 --> 00:07:40.930 Michele: Do you guys have like a shared Trello or git like canvan, 00:07:41.176 --> 00:07:45.446 like some sort of centralized system for seeing what all the tasks are 00:07:45.446 --> 00:07:46.526 and what everybody else is working. 00:07:47.121 --> 00:07:47.901 Colleen: Yeah, that's what we need. 00:07:47.931 --> 00:07:51.381 We have a Trello board, but we don't it's it's not really being 00:07:51.381 --> 00:07:52.641 used in an effective manner. 00:07:52.731 --> 00:07:55.875 So, um, that is literally tomorrow. 00:07:55.875 --> 00:07:59.955 I'm going to take a couple hours because I'm doing a long day. 00:07:59.955 --> 00:08:03.285 So I've tried, I'm trying to do like one long day a week, which really helps 00:08:03.285 --> 00:08:04.785 give me more time for side projects. 00:08:04.815 --> 00:08:08.676 Not that this is a side project, but I'm going to take that time and spend a 00:08:08.676 --> 00:08:10.686 couple hours and really get us organized. 00:08:11.190 --> 00:08:12.060 That is my plan. 00:08:12.180 --> 00:08:13.590 And we have a Trello board. 00:08:13.690 --> 00:08:16.960 You know, I might spin up Notion, I don't want to overly complicate it, but 00:08:16.960 --> 00:08:20.516 we have a lot of moving pieces and I need to make sure everyone knows what's 00:08:20.516 --> 00:08:22.406 going on with all of those moving pieces. 00:08:22.908 --> 00:08:25.798 Michele: So it's actually something we're dealing with too. 00:08:26.315 --> 00:08:28.295 Yeah, it's like just what are all the pieces. 00:08:28.295 --> 00:08:29.345 What are the priorities? 00:08:29.395 --> 00:08:32.185 You know, what is the visibility and, you know, at various points, I 00:08:32.185 --> 00:08:34.275 think we've, we've had Trello boards. 00:08:34.275 --> 00:08:36.725 I think at one point we had a private Trello, and then a public 00:08:36.725 --> 00:08:39.785 Trello that didn't last very long. 00:08:39.875 --> 00:08:42.185 Um, but we've also used Base Camp. 00:08:42.185 --> 00:08:43.805 We've used Notion. 00:08:44.308 --> 00:08:48.136 And I think where we actually settled on a couple of weeks ago, but have not 00:08:48.436 --> 00:08:54.946 acted only acted on a little bit, but not fully is using the git hub projects, beta, 00:08:55.066 --> 00:09:00.586 because we tend to just kind of throw everything product related, into git hub 00:09:00.586 --> 00:09:07.411 issues and they made it so that you can have one project across all organizations. 00:09:07.441 --> 00:09:08.641 I don't know if it was always like that. 00:09:08.641 --> 00:09:11.071 And I didn't know that or like, it's a new thing. 00:09:11.641 --> 00:09:12.931 Well, it says projects beta. 00:09:12.931 --> 00:09:16.291 So like, it used to be like, they'd like git hub, git hub, uh, Kan Ban boards. 00:09:16.321 --> 00:09:16.681 Right. 00:09:17.281 --> 00:09:20.721 Um, and what we like about that is like, it's just directly 00:09:20.721 --> 00:09:23.211 integrated with all of the issues. 00:09:23.708 --> 00:09:29.011 Um, but yeah, this is not a problem that like goes away. 00:09:29.581 --> 00:09:34.126 Um, But it is worth spending the time of like, okay, what 00:09:34.126 --> 00:09:35.356 are we actually working on? 00:09:35.356 --> 00:09:37.726 Or the things we're working on the most important things. 00:09:38.223 --> 00:09:41.133 And especially where, I mean, like we have this coordination problem, 00:09:41.133 --> 00:09:47.423 and we literally work not five feet from each other and live in the same 00:09:47.423 --> 00:09:52.273 house and like, most days, you know, we're the only other adult, like, you 00:09:52.273 --> 00:09:54.193 know, the other one sees very often. 00:09:54.223 --> 00:09:58.123 So, we still have this coordination problem, and you guys are, 00:09:58.633 --> 00:10:01.233 you know, halfway across the country from one another. 00:10:02.083 --> 00:10:06.163 So it seems like an important thing to like, kind of get sorted out, but also 00:10:06.163 --> 00:10:10.475 not, you don't want to spend too much time fussing over this because it's going 00:10:10.475 --> 00:10:13.295 to evolve as you and the company do. 00:10:13.295 --> 00:10:15.965 So like, you still want to be flexible with it. 00:10:15.965 --> 00:10:21.688 Like, You know, don't go off and buy a license for some super enterprise, easy, 00:10:21.778 --> 00:10:24.238 um, project management software right now. 00:10:24.238 --> 00:10:24.628 Right. 00:10:25.571 --> 00:10:28.381 But yeah, you at least need to spend time, keeping things organized, 00:10:28.381 --> 00:10:33.380 whether you're early days or whatever days we are at this point. 00:10:34.883 --> 00:10:35.903 Colleen: Yeah, I totally agree. 00:10:35.933 --> 00:10:37.463 I think that, I agree. 00:10:37.463 --> 00:10:40.733 We don't want to, I don't want to sink a lot of time into it, but it's 00:10:40.733 --> 00:10:43.883 important to have visibility to all of the projects we have going on. 00:10:44.153 --> 00:10:46.163 So we know what the highest leverage activities are. 00:10:46.666 --> 00:10:47.026 Michele: Yeah. 00:10:47.446 --> 00:10:48.316 Yeah, for sure. 00:10:48.346 --> 00:10:48.556 Okay. 00:10:48.556 --> 00:10:51.316 So you're going to make a Nova landing page. 00:10:51.526 --> 00:10:52.366 What else are you gonna do? 00:10:52.871 --> 00:10:55.414 Colleen: Um, Well, okay. 00:10:55.444 --> 00:10:57.184 First of all, I'm going to get us organized. 00:10:57.604 --> 00:10:59.374 Then goal two is Nova landing. 00:11:00.124 --> 00:11:01.144 And 00:11:01.289 --> 00:11:02.189 Michele: on the landing page. 00:11:02.686 --> 00:11:04.566 Colleen: I don't know, go buy this. 00:11:04.566 --> 00:11:05.136 It's awesome. 00:11:05.981 --> 00:11:07.091 Michele: Is it like, are we doing. 00:11:07.716 --> 00:11:08.016 Colleen: I haven't 00:11:08.081 --> 00:11:10.511 Michele: Is there going to be like a sample of it somehow? 00:11:10.545 --> 00:11:13.365 Like, Is there going to be a video of you walking through it? 00:11:13.365 --> 00:11:16.755 Is there going to be like a GIF of somebody clicking through it? 00:11:16.830 --> 00:11:17.700 Colleen: I Like, gifts. 00:11:17.760 --> 00:11:17.850 I 00:11:17.955 --> 00:11:20.955 Michele: is there going to be like code samples of some or something? 00:11:20.955 --> 00:11:21.945 Like, is there like, 00:11:22.446 --> 00:11:22.886 Colleen: I don't 00:11:22.901 --> 00:11:25.511 Michele: like what have you learned from simple file upload that 00:11:25.511 --> 00:11:29.561 people like on a landing page that makes them want to buy something? 00:11:29.791 --> 00:11:30.271 Colleen: Ooh. 00:11:30.511 --> 00:11:31.681 that's such a good question. 00:11:32.251 --> 00:11:35.361 Um, my experience has been, people like videos, people 00:11:35.361 --> 00:11:37.041 like gifs, they like visuals. 00:11:37.311 --> 00:11:38.811 They like code samples. 00:11:38.841 --> 00:11:42.981 They like, I mean, we're selling to developers, so we're going to want 00:11:42.981 --> 00:11:45.501 a developer focused landing page. 00:11:45.501 --> 00:11:48.951 So our focus here is on results and developer happiness. 00:11:49.281 --> 00:11:52.461 So testimonials from people who have purchased it, there are two 00:11:52.461 --> 00:11:56.391 people, now, if we include you, who haven't, who have purchased the Nova. 00:11:56.631 --> 00:12:02.443 So the way I envisioned this is maybe a gif, maybe a video showing you what it 00:12:02.443 --> 00:12:09.803 does, a code sample of how to integrate it, testimonials from people who have used 00:12:09.803 --> 00:12:13.903 it and then schedule a call or buy now 00:12:14.658 --> 00:12:16.578 Michele: Yeah, why do they, why do they need a phone call? 00:12:17.271 --> 00:12:17.871 Do you need a phone? 00:12:18.618 --> 00:12:20.716 Colleen: Do I, I don't, well, I think. 00:12:21.216 --> 00:12:25.146 I don't know if they don't need a phone call, maybe the option to schedule a call. 00:12:25.646 --> 00:12:28.706 Michele: Well, I feel like when I see schedule a call on a landing page, I'm 00:12:28.706 --> 00:12:30.476 like, oh, this is some enterprise thing. 00:12:30.806 --> 00:12:31.256 Colleen: You're right. 00:12:31.256 --> 00:12:31.556 Okay. 00:12:31.556 --> 00:12:32.426 So just buy now. 00:12:32.926 --> 00:12:33.196 Michele: Yeah. 00:12:33.226 --> 00:12:35.206 I mean, or it could be, you know, like email us or whatever, 00:12:35.206 --> 00:12:36.076 if you have questions, but 00:12:36.366 --> 00:12:36.816 Colleen: Right? 00:12:36.816 --> 00:12:40.596 I mean, our license is a thousand dollars, so I don't think people are just going to 00:12:40.596 --> 00:12:43.356 cough up a thousand dollars without one. 00:12:43.386 --> 00:12:44.826 The reason I was thinking schedule a 00:12:45.026 --> 00:12:47.156 Michele: Well, they, they do for do Geocodio all the time. 00:12:47.696 --> 00:12:49.826 They go cough of a lot more than that without ever talking to 00:12:50.036 --> 00:12:50.786 Colleen: Without talking to you. 00:12:50.786 --> 00:12:51.146 Okay. 00:12:51.356 --> 00:12:52.256 So go ahead and buy it. 00:12:52.556 --> 00:12:52.706 and 00:12:52.706 --> 00:12:53.036 then 00:12:55.896 --> 00:12:56.936 Michele: SaaS for the win. 00:12:57.716 --> 00:12:58.526 Colleen: for the win. 00:12:59.483 --> 00:13:04.726 So yeah, I think that landing page schedule, no, we're 00:13:04.726 --> 00:13:06.016 not with no call to action. 00:13:06.046 --> 00:13:06.436 Buy it 00:13:06.751 --> 00:13:08.281 Michele: Yes, so, okay. 00:13:08.281 --> 00:13:12.361 So this video and like, I feel like you've had success with videos in the past. 00:13:12.361 --> 00:13:14.941 Like I remember you saying that, like, there's some videos 00:13:14.941 --> 00:13:18.211 that you had on YouTube of like talks and stuff you've done. 00:13:18.711 --> 00:13:20.781 I thought, I don't know if that was like, learned to code stuff or whatnot, 00:13:20.781 --> 00:13:25.255 but I got the sense that you have some amount of following on YouTube or at 00:13:25.255 --> 00:13:31.091 least that people like watching you talk about code things on YouTube is that 00:13:31.601 --> 00:13:33.395 Colleen: Yeah, I think that's accurate. 00:13:33.885 --> 00:13:34.725 Michele: Let's use that. 00:13:35.678 --> 00:13:36.008 Colleen: Okay. 00:13:36.008 --> 00:13:40.625 So I, I mean, it's interesting because different people like different 00:13:40.625 --> 00:13:44.195 things, you are always very adamant about how you don't like videos. 00:13:44.315 --> 00:13:45.215 You want texts. 00:13:45.235 --> 00:13:45.605 I know. 00:13:45.605 --> 00:13:48.725 And it's because I understand it's because you can read faster 00:13:48.725 --> 00:13:49.865 than you can watch a video. 00:13:49.865 --> 00:13:50.405 So I think 00:13:50.445 --> 00:13:52.545 Michele: but like, I'm not necessarily your customer here. 00:13:52.725 --> 00:13:52.905 Well, I 00:13:53.015 --> 00:13:54.905 Colleen: well, you kind of are. 00:13:54.935 --> 00:13:55.775 You're literally our 00:13:56.175 --> 00:13:59.445 Michele: But yeah, no, but like don't, you know, I'm, I think I'm 00:13:59.445 --> 00:14:01.065 in the minority of like, not liking. 00:14:01.670 --> 00:14:02.630 Colleen: Well, I think you do both. 00:14:02.660 --> 00:14:04.504 So I think, I think there's a video. 00:14:04.774 --> 00:14:07.834 What I like what my thought is, you have a link to the docs. 00:14:08.164 --> 00:14:10.744 You have a short snippet of how you integrate it quickly. 00:14:11.134 --> 00:14:16.834 You have maybe a short video or a GIF, and then you have the option 00:14:16.834 --> 00:14:19.924 for them to watch a full, like, longer how to install it video. 00:14:20.914 --> 00:14:21.304 Okay. 00:14:21.454 --> 00:14:24.094 Michele: Yeah, I think, yeah, the short video is like, here's all 00:14:24.094 --> 00:14:25.654 the awesome stuff that this can do. 00:14:25.654 --> 00:14:26.674 Don't you wish you could do it. 00:14:26.674 --> 00:14:27.364 It's so easy. 00:14:27.364 --> 00:14:29.494 You just have to drop in those code and then you're good. 00:14:29.867 --> 00:14:30.317 Colleen: Right. 00:14:30.352 --> 00:14:32.512 Michele: And then there's the longer video if they need it. 00:14:32.907 --> 00:14:33.267 Colleen: Yeah. 00:14:33.807 --> 00:14:35.277 Um, yeah. 00:14:35.367 --> 00:14:35.847 Okay. 00:14:36.347 --> 00:14:36.857 Absolutely. 00:14:36.857 --> 00:14:37.577 That sounds great. 00:14:37.667 --> 00:14:38.957 That's a lot of work, but I got it. 00:14:39.107 --> 00:14:39.767 I got it. 00:14:40.267 --> 00:14:43.177 Michele: So the other thing we talked about that both of us are going to be 00:14:43.177 --> 00:14:51.497 doing, you are going to be leading a workshop related to Refine and Sequel. 00:14:51.497 --> 00:14:52.787 And what is it? 00:14:52.817 --> 00:14:54.437 Active record. 00:14:54.677 --> 00:14:55.937 Colleen: Active record and ARL. 00:14:55.997 --> 00:14:57.617 Oh, you listen to me when I 00:14:58.067 --> 00:15:02.807 Michele: I did listen, um, at Ruby conf, which 00:15:02.807 --> 00:15:05.627 is S sorry, 00:15:06.377 --> 00:15:07.817 why is it not gonna, it's not called Ruby 00:15:07.837 --> 00:15:10.207 Colleen: Ruby conf is in the fall rails conference in the spring. 00:15:10.707 --> 00:15:11.697 Michele: Oh, there are two. 00:15:11.727 --> 00:15:12.057 Okay. 00:15:12.057 --> 00:15:13.437 I didn't just like, make that. 00:15:13.467 --> 00:15:13.797 Okay. 00:15:13.827 --> 00:15:14.127 Okay. 00:15:14.247 --> 00:15:14.577 All right. 00:15:14.607 --> 00:15:14.937 Okay. 00:15:15.434 --> 00:15:15.764 Okay. 00:15:15.824 --> 00:15:16.797 Sorry, not my world. 00:15:16.849 --> 00:15:18.829 When is rails? 00:15:19.484 --> 00:15:22.934 Colleen: Oh, M G May 15th, I think May 16th really 00:15:23.179 --> 00:15:23.659 Michele: Okay. 00:15:24.163 --> 00:15:30.111 So then the other thing going on is I am also leading the first all day deploy 00:15:30.141 --> 00:15:37.851 empathy masterclass workshop, um, at the go-to conference, which is a B2B 00:15:37.851 --> 00:15:44.601 enterprise uh, SaaS conference, uh, Orca software in general, um, in Aarhus Denmark 00:15:44.662 --> 00:15:50.392 in June, and doing a couple of other talks and another workshop in the Fall too. 00:15:50.392 --> 00:15:53.482 But anyway, so I have never led a longer workshop, I've only 00:15:53.482 --> 00:15:56.672 done one to two hour workshops. 00:15:57.092 --> 00:16:03.092 So both of us need to figure out how to lead a great workshop 00:16:03.152 --> 00:16:04.952 in the next few months as well. 00:16:05.332 --> 00:16:07.582 Um, how long has your work. 00:16:08.610 --> 00:16:09.030 Colleen: hours. 00:16:09.485 --> 00:16:11.465 Michele: Okay, so that's yeah, this is not, this is more than 00:16:11.465 --> 00:16:12.545 like a meetup talk, right? 00:16:12.545 --> 00:16:14.975 Or like meet up kind of workshop where it's like half an hour 00:16:15.065 --> 00:16:16.955 or 30 minutes or 60 minutes. 00:16:17.458 --> 00:16:23.308 Um, We kind of led our first introduction to workshops while I was in California. 00:16:24.163 --> 00:16:30.803 Led a tie dying workshop with six children under the age 10 and under, which was an 00:16:30.803 --> 00:16:34.583 experience, um, and mostly successful. 00:16:35.098 --> 00:16:35.938 Colleen: mostly successful. 00:16:36.293 --> 00:16:41.683 Michele: Um, But I feel like both of us are kind of feeling like we need to 00:16:41.683 --> 00:16:46.743 double down on putting together a great workshop and making that a good experience 00:16:46.743 --> 00:16:49.503 for us and for the participants. 00:16:50.133 --> 00:16:56.190 Um, so I bought a couple of books about workshops, which is whenever 00:16:56.190 --> 00:16:57.450 I don't know how to do something. 00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:02.100 I, as we sit, as we discussed, I do not watch videos, I read books. 00:17:02.670 --> 00:17:08.290 Um, so I have those two books sitting on my desk here. 00:17:08.290 --> 00:17:11.789 So it's kind of like my homework assignment, once I get over my 00:17:11.789 --> 00:17:16.171 jet lag and everything to start reading those and share that with 00:17:16.171 --> 00:17:18.961 you on what makes a workshop great. 00:17:18.991 --> 00:17:22.081 And what makes them terrible and like how we should think about that. 00:17:22.081 --> 00:17:26.191 And I'm also doing a bunch of talks too, like shorter talks over the 00:17:26.191 --> 00:17:31.885 next couple of months, leading up to that two or three of which are mini 00:17:31.885 --> 00:17:33.505 versions of what this workshop will be. 00:17:33.775 --> 00:17:36.135 So we've kind of also got that. 00:17:36.635 --> 00:17:39.865 I feel like we've got these like big things coming up in 00:17:39.865 --> 00:17:40.955 the next couple of months. 00:17:41.560 --> 00:17:41.980 Colleen: Yeah. 00:17:42.040 --> 00:17:43.510 I'm, I'm sweat in the workshop. 00:17:43.540 --> 00:17:48.333 And the reason I'm sweating the workshop is because I promised, in my pitch 00:17:48.363 --> 00:17:52.346 that the audience would leave with a query builder that actually works. 00:17:52.586 --> 00:17:57.476 So I like to do this when I give talks, like I over, like I get really 00:17:57.476 --> 00:18:02.126 ambitious and then it forces me to hustle to fill in the details. 00:18:02.626 --> 00:18:09.316 And so this requires, I mean, this is, there's a fair amount of technical 00:18:09.316 --> 00:18:14.596 work required on my side to get our open source front end component working 00:18:14.596 --> 00:18:19.370 with basically that the plan for me is we have a front I'm sorry, front end, 00:18:19.430 --> 00:18:23.780 open source component that we haven't hooked up to the rails back end yet, 00:18:23.810 --> 00:18:28.820 so this requires me to hook this up to a skeleton of the rails backend. 00:18:30.095 --> 00:18:33.605 Select a portion of our query builder that we can build into ours. 00:18:33.635 --> 00:18:38.225 So technically from a technical perspective, like there's just a crap 00:18:38.225 --> 00:18:43.505 ton of work I have to do on top of the desire you just stated, which is make 00:18:43.505 --> 00:18:45.125 sure no one is bored and falls asleep. 00:18:45.621 --> 00:18:48.291 Um, Software workshops can be really dry. 00:18:48.801 --> 00:18:52.521 And so how do you, oh, so, so I'm kind of sweating it because it's 00:18:52.521 --> 00:18:54.171 two months and it's a lot of work. 00:18:54.671 --> 00:18:55.241 So that just is. 00:18:55.266 --> 00:18:55.596 Michele: Yeah. 00:18:55.596 --> 00:18:58.866 So is this work that you have to do for the workshop? 00:18:58.896 --> 00:19:04.706 Like, stuff you can repurpose elsewhere or like that feeds into 00:19:04.706 --> 00:19:08.456 the broader product, or is that work that only goes into this workshop? 00:19:08.576 --> 00:19:12.806 Colleen: So I have a couple of thoughts on this and I own the content. 00:19:13.016 --> 00:19:17.686 So I could put this together and use this. 00:19:17.836 --> 00:19:22.528 I mean, I could use it as a free course Hammerstones or stones site 00:19:22.528 --> 00:19:23.998 that's lead gen for the product. 00:19:24.028 --> 00:19:28.438 Like it's like, oh, you can build one 16th of this, one 32nd of this, 00:19:28.438 --> 00:19:30.388 a tiny portion of this in two hours. 00:19:30.388 --> 00:19:31.978 And I'm going to show you how to do it. 00:19:32.478 --> 00:19:35.778 You can spend, you know, a month, two months, five months, six months building 00:19:35.778 --> 00:19:37.218 out the rest and hope you get it right. 00:19:37.218 --> 00:19:39.018 Or you can just buy our product, but I could do it. 00:19:39.048 --> 00:19:40.698 I mean, I can package this workshop. 00:19:40.698 --> 00:19:42.408 So typically workshops aren't recorded. 00:19:42.738 --> 00:19:46.133 Aaron and I are talking about, paying hammer stone paying to 00:19:46.133 --> 00:19:47.663 have this re workshop recorded. 00:19:47.663 --> 00:19:50.993 So we, that can then repurpose that content, like I said, as lead 00:19:50.993 --> 00:19:54.773 gen or as a free course about how query builders work or something. 00:19:54.773 --> 00:19:55.133 Yes. 00:19:55.133 --> 00:19:58.703 But the whole purpose is to be able to repurpose this content, whether we start 00:19:58.703 --> 00:20:03.522 giving it at other places or whether we just, I mean, obviously we'll just 00:20:03.522 --> 00:20:05.622 put it on our website in some way. 00:20:07.009 --> 00:20:07.519 Michele: Yeah. 00:20:07.549 --> 00:20:12.729 I almost wonder whether it might be better to not record this specific 00:20:12.729 --> 00:20:16.869 instance since an in-person workshop, people might like raise their hand and 00:20:16.869 --> 00:20:23.583 ask questions and like, like it could, like, I think it applies it's less, 00:20:23.583 --> 00:20:29.954 repurposable the, the exact workshop itself then like a talk is right. 00:20:29.954 --> 00:20:33.824 Cause there's no real interactive element of a talk, but once you have the 00:20:33.824 --> 00:20:36.724 content, then you can use that wherever. 00:20:36.724 --> 00:20:37.024 Right. 00:20:37.024 --> 00:20:41.134 So like, you know, the, the mini workshops I'm giving in the next 00:20:41.134 --> 00:20:44.704 couple of weeks, like I'm doing the practice interview workshop, 00:20:44.734 --> 00:20:46.314 I think in three different places. 00:20:46.814 --> 00:20:50.234 This is a workshop I've given several times before, and I 00:20:50.594 --> 00:20:52.334 feel like the content is down. 00:20:52.334 --> 00:20:54.134 I know how to run the activity. 00:20:54.184 --> 00:20:56.914 I have a really good sense for how that runs. 00:20:56.914 --> 00:20:59.764 And so now I can just give that over and over again. 00:21:00.267 --> 00:21:06.267 And so I think once you have the content together and then you kind of learn how, 00:21:06.267 --> 00:21:11.367 like what snags people might have to in person, then you could just record that 00:21:11.427 --> 00:21:18.027 as a, a version that is intended for YouTube or intended for the landing page. 00:21:18.524 --> 00:21:21.844 It just might be a little bit cleaner and then you'll have more control 00:21:21.844 --> 00:21:26.078 over how the content appears as well. 00:21:26.078 --> 00:21:26.348 Right? 00:21:26.348 --> 00:21:29.408 Because like, what if there's like a technical issue or what if like the camera 00:21:29.408 --> 00:21:30.938 doesn't pan to like the right place? 00:21:30.938 --> 00:21:32.888 And like, you're doing a code example, but it's on your face. 00:21:32.888 --> 00:21:34.428 And like, you don't have any control over that. 00:21:34.428 --> 00:21:37.423 But I think if you can structure the workshop in a way that 00:21:37.423 --> 00:21:42.750 makes it repurposable, then, then that's really valuable. 00:21:42.840 --> 00:21:46.350 So that it's not just all this effort going into this one specific work. 00:21:46.740 --> 00:21:49.600 Colleen: Well, and I was talking to my friend who gives workshops at rails conf 00:21:49.620 --> 00:21:51.360 and he said he got like 20 to 30 people. 00:21:51.750 --> 00:21:54.990 So it's got for the amount of work that's going to go into it 00:21:54.990 --> 00:21:59.910 on my side, I've got to make that content repurposable like absolute. 00:22:00.662 --> 00:22:01.082 Michele: Yeah. 00:22:01.582 --> 00:22:02.872 Yeah, absolutely. 00:22:03.375 --> 00:22:05.672 So then there's like the content side of it, and then there's the, 00:22:06.422 --> 00:22:09.922 I'm thinking a lot about, is like the UX of attending a workshop. 00:22:10.015 --> 00:22:14.545 Especially for me, like the, the one I'm doing an all hosts is from nine to four. 00:22:15.505 --> 00:22:16.225 Yeah. 00:22:16.728 --> 00:22:17.508 Yeah. 00:22:17.598 --> 00:22:21.378 So, and I was reading something earlier today saying that like, you know, 00:22:21.438 --> 00:22:26.338 even like a 60 minute talk, you should imagine that it's in four 15 minute 00:22:26.368 --> 00:22:29.698 episodes, because otherwise you're going to lose people's attention span. 00:22:30.202 --> 00:22:35.742 And so like basically plan to have some sort of shift or break or, uh, whatever 00:22:35.742 --> 00:22:37.982 that is like every 15 minutes or so. 00:22:37.982 --> 00:22:40.562 So like, I feel like I'm going to have to really like, make a script 00:22:40.562 --> 00:22:42.132 for this, or like, like an agenda. 00:22:42.135 --> 00:22:46.109 But that reminded me today that I really need to read those books and figure out, 00:22:46.856 --> 00:22:50.846 how do you structure this, but bearing in mind that you have all of this work 00:22:50.846 --> 00:22:52.886 to do, to like create your content. 00:22:52.986 --> 00:22:54.696 I at least already have all of my content. 00:22:54.696 --> 00:22:56.346 It's just kind of a matter of repackaging it. 00:22:56.826 --> 00:23:01.616 Um, I will take on the heavy lifting of reading all the books about the UX of a 00:23:01.616 --> 00:23:03.266 workshop and just share that with you. 00:23:03.471 --> 00:23:04.281 Colleen: Yay. 00:23:04.311 --> 00:23:04.671 Thank 00:23:04.766 --> 00:23:09.079 Michele: So then you can, uh, yeah, you can do that. 00:23:09.116 --> 00:23:11.906 I almost wish I could like demo the workshop, like the whole thing, 00:23:11.906 --> 00:23:16.329 but that, that seems like difficult, it's not like practicing, uh, you 00:23:16.329 --> 00:23:18.519 know, half hour or 45 minute talk. 00:23:18.519 --> 00:23:20.702 I can't, you know, go talk 00:23:20.712 --> 00:23:22.752 Colleen: Yeah, for eight hours. 00:23:23.492 --> 00:23:23.912 Michele: eight hours. 00:23:25.122 --> 00:23:27.132 Colleen: Matias, I need eight hours of your time. 00:23:27.672 --> 00:23:30.342 We're going to sit down and I'm going to give you this whole workshop. 00:23:30.846 --> 00:23:31.776 Michele: Lunch will be included. 00:23:32.496 --> 00:23:34.206 Uh, actually I have to figure that out. 00:23:34.206 --> 00:23:36.796 I guess I'm not responsible for like the sandwiches and whatever, but I 00:23:36.806 --> 00:23:38.146 like, is there a lunch break in there? 00:23:38.146 --> 00:23:40.869 I need to, um, it's just all these details. 00:23:41.169 --> 00:23:44.072 Colleen: Yeah, that's a whole, I mean, a whole day is intense. 00:23:44.126 --> 00:23:46.106 Michele: Yeah, yeah, I am. 00:23:46.106 --> 00:23:47.456 I'm pretty excited actually. 00:23:47.456 --> 00:23:49.916 So I have like kind of an intensive week too, because I'm 00:23:49.916 --> 00:23:53.546 going to be that conference, which is in, the middle of June. 00:23:53.655 --> 00:23:56.385 I think it's like June 13th or 14th or something. 00:23:56.485 --> 00:24:02.235 And so then I'll drive there and then I'm going to drive down to Hamburg, 00:24:02.295 --> 00:24:08.092 Germany after that and give a talk at Mind the Product Hamburg, which 00:24:08.572 --> 00:24:12.232 I'm super excited for, I don't know if I've ever ranted to you about 00:24:12.232 --> 00:24:15.322 the hair, the Henry Ford analogy. 00:24:15.352 --> 00:24:15.772 Do you know this? 00:24:16.567 --> 00:24:17.557 Colleen: No, it's 00:24:17.607 --> 00:24:21.267 Michele: That people say that um, what was it that if Henry Ford had 00:24:21.267 --> 00:24:25.497 asked people what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse. 00:24:26.427 --> 00:24:27.507 Have you ever heard someone say that? 00:24:27.557 --> 00:24:29.597 Colleen: I feel like you ranted about it on Twitter once. 00:24:30.117 --> 00:24:30.387 Michele: it. 00:24:30.507 --> 00:24:31.227 Oh my God. 00:24:31.227 --> 00:24:36.267 It's just so like, like anyone who has ever tried to do any amount of 00:24:36.267 --> 00:24:42.922 customer research has gotten this sort of retort from someone back. 00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:47.790 It's just, it is like the, uh, fastest way to make a product or 00:24:48.270 --> 00:24:51.960 a UX research person's skin crawl. 00:24:52.320 --> 00:24:56.430 Um, And so I'm going to spend a whole talk, just tearing it to 00:24:56.430 --> 00:25:01.454 shreds and being like, what if, what if he actually had done research? 00:25:01.454 --> 00:25:02.564 What would that have looked like? 00:25:02.564 --> 00:25:04.754 And like, where can you go with this? 00:25:04.754 --> 00:25:08.774 And apparently people also say that, like, Steve Jobs never did research either. 00:25:09.184 --> 00:25:10.834 Colleen: That is a big Steve Jobs thing. 00:25:11.164 --> 00:25:12.274 I read his biography. 00:25:12.784 --> 00:25:13.594 That's a big thing. 00:25:14.097 --> 00:25:14.727 Michele: Yeah. 00:25:14.847 --> 00:25:20.007 I, you know, maybe it worked for jobs, but I don't think most of 00:25:20.007 --> 00:25:21.927 us have the amount of like hubris. 00:25:21.927 --> 00:25:22.317 Right. 00:25:22.347 --> 00:25:23.517 Um, yeah. 00:25:23.517 --> 00:25:24.057 I mean, oh yeah. 00:25:24.057 --> 00:25:26.067 There's so much myth around him too. 00:25:26.517 --> 00:25:28.887 Colleen: it's like he just wheeled this into existence. 00:25:28.917 --> 00:25:29.187 You're like 00:25:29.427 --> 00:25:29.997 Michele: Right. 00:25:30.147 --> 00:25:34.086 But it's also, I feel like when people repeat things like that, it's like it 00:25:34.086 --> 00:25:37.506 kind of like saying that you're just as, you know, sort of special as like 00:25:37.506 --> 00:25:42.560 Steve Jobs, like I think he's kind of a, you know, a once in a S yeah, yes, 00:25:42.710 --> 00:25:48.625 very much an outlier and i, I recognize like I'm not as brilliant as Steve Jobs. 00:25:48.625 --> 00:25:52.355 So I have to do research like, and mate, maybe other people are 00:25:52.375 --> 00:25:55.347 as brilliant as he is and are undiscovered, but I think a little bit 00:25:55.347 --> 00:25:57.327 of humility is required for most of us. 00:25:57.777 --> 00:26:01.107 Um, so I'm going to have an absolute ball tearing that apart, but that's 00:26:01.107 --> 00:26:05.760 going to be like a whole week of talks. 00:26:05.821 --> 00:26:08.024 Cause I'm actually, I'm doing the workshop at GoTo and then I'm 00:26:08.024 --> 00:26:10.004 doing a talk the following day. 00:26:10.759 --> 00:26:15.639 Then I have a one day break and then I do the talk in Hamburg, so it will be busy. 00:26:15.639 --> 00:26:18.992 But I think that also means that like, you know, I'm not one 00:26:18.992 --> 00:26:22.509 to do unplanned talks, right. 00:26:22.509 --> 00:26:27.212 But like, I really need to get all of this ironed out well in advance. 00:26:27.212 --> 00:26:30.859 Like I don't want to be, you know, furiously making slides 00:26:30.859 --> 00:26:32.089 like the day beforehand. 00:26:32.089 --> 00:26:32.359 Right. 00:26:32.359 --> 00:26:34.369 Because I can't, I can't go into that week tired. 00:26:34.369 --> 00:26:35.569 Like I need to have all of this. 00:26:36.315 --> 00:26:37.875 Down pat. 00:26:37.919 --> 00:26:39.719 So I need to start planning that out now. 00:26:39.719 --> 00:26:44.189 And I mean, I feel like May is going to be here before we know it. 00:26:44.304 --> 00:26:44.754 Colleen: Oh, Yeah. 00:26:44.754 --> 00:26:45.574 I can't believe it's April. 00:26:45.654 --> 00:26:46.074 Yeah. 00:26:46.254 --> 00:26:47.094 I can't believe it's April. 00:26:47.274 --> 00:26:50.634 Like what I'm actually, like I said, I'm, I'm kind of sweating 00:26:50.634 --> 00:26:52.014 my timeline on this workshop. 00:26:52.044 --> 00:26:56.274 So I also need to hit the ground hard running with this. 00:26:56.774 --> 00:26:58.124 Michele: I mean, I wonder what you're going to do with like 00:26:58.124 --> 00:26:59.474 simple file upload in this time. 00:27:00.227 --> 00:27:00.887 Colleen: Oh man. 00:27:00.917 --> 00:27:01.157 Okay. 00:27:01.157 --> 00:27:01.907 This is so funny. 00:27:01.907 --> 00:27:06.637 You bring this up because I launched a free plan as we discussed. 00:27:06.847 --> 00:27:07.327 Yeah. 00:27:07.747 --> 00:27:08.227 Yeah. 00:27:08.557 --> 00:27:10.057 And can I tell you what happened 00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:11.279 Michele: what happened? 00:27:11.284 --> 00:27:12.214 Colleen: in two weeks? 00:27:12.214 --> 00:27:14.254 I had like 75 signups. 00:27:14.752 --> 00:27:15.442 Michele: Really? 00:27:15.697 --> 00:27:18.007 Colleen: I usually get like 15, maybe 15 a month. 00:27:18.097 --> 00:27:21.127 Yeah, so it's 00:27:21.172 --> 00:27:21.712 Michele: Okay. 00:27:21.742 --> 00:27:26.032 So you were afraid that it would cause this like massive increase 00:27:26.032 --> 00:27:27.142 in customer support requests. 00:27:28.002 --> 00:27:29.022 Colleen: No one has emailed me. 00:27:29.752 --> 00:27:30.502 Michele: Really 00:27:31.332 --> 00:27:33.702 Colleen: One person emailed me to ask me how to upgrade 00:27:33.702 --> 00:27:35.262 to a free or to a paid plan. 00:27:35.722 --> 00:27:36.652 Michele: Really? 00:27:36.952 --> 00:27:41.062 That is the only email you got from 75 people. 00:27:41.302 --> 00:27:42.502 Did they actually upgrade? 00:27:43.065 --> 00:27:46.345 Colleen: I, like, they just emailed me today or like 30 minutes ago, 00:27:46.345 --> 00:27:47.725 so I didn't email them back yet. 00:27:47.755 --> 00:27:49.272 But, um, yeah. 00:27:49.302 --> 00:27:53.082 So speaking of that, I, um, I got, let go. 00:27:53.832 --> 00:27:55.872 I just gotta make, make it through the workshop. 00:27:55.902 --> 00:27:59.982 I think it's just funny, like how the timing of all these things has collided, 00:28:00.987 --> 00:28:02.247 Michele: When it rains, it pours. 00:28:02.632 --> 00:28:04.732 Colleen: I mean, it's, it's amazing. 00:28:04.972 --> 00:28:10.602 I'm not upset, but it's, it's also like, wow, I, um, I just have a lot going on 00:28:10.602 --> 00:28:15.452 and it's really exciting, but my simple file upload does all of these things. 00:28:15.452 --> 00:28:19.022 I've added all these features that are not even on my landing page. 00:28:19.772 --> 00:28:22.052 And I was feeling kind of down on the product. 00:28:22.052 --> 00:28:24.932 Cause you know, you're on Twitter and you see other people's like MRR 00:28:24.932 --> 00:28:29.342 growth and you're like, mm, mine is pales in comparison to this guy. 00:28:29.792 --> 00:28:33.482 And then I was talking um, so I'm going to have Zach Goldie on the 00:28:33.482 --> 00:28:35.192 podcast to talk about positioning. 00:28:35.522 --> 00:28:36.512 And I was talking to him. 00:28:36.992 --> 00:28:38.672 I know I'm super pumped about that by the way. 00:28:39.168 --> 00:28:42.448 And I was talking to him about my product and he was, so he was looking, 00:28:42.448 --> 00:28:44.098 we're looking just at Heroku right now. 00:28:44.548 --> 00:28:47.998 And he was talking about all the competitors and he's like, oh, well, 00:28:48.028 --> 00:28:49.768 these people do something similar. 00:28:49.768 --> 00:28:51.178 And I'm like, actually, no, they don't. 00:28:51.418 --> 00:28:53.858 They're just giving you a AWS S3 bucket. 00:28:53.858 --> 00:28:55.688 I do all these other things. 00:28:56.198 --> 00:28:59.858 So as I was telling him how awesome my product is, I 00:28:59.858 --> 00:29:02.098 realize my product is awesome. 00:29:02.218 --> 00:29:03.268 So that was a good feeling. 00:29:03.478 --> 00:29:04.018 And also. 00:29:04.048 --> 00:29:04.318 Michele: Heck. 00:29:04.318 --> 00:29:05.098 Yes, it is. 00:29:05.173 --> 00:29:07.063 Colleen: Like, I'm not even communicating that. 00:29:07.153 --> 00:29:09.783 So I don't know what to do with this information. 00:29:09.783 --> 00:29:11.433 I'm just sharing it Like there's just a lot 00:29:11.648 --> 00:29:13.568 Michele: Well, it sounds like you should have like a competitor, 00:29:13.898 --> 00:29:15.728 a competitor comparison landing. 00:29:16.246 --> 00:29:16.606 Colleen: Yeah. 00:29:16.606 --> 00:29:21.066 So he, he and I are going to talk about all that stuff, like how to. 00:29:21.666 --> 00:29:23.016 How to do well. 00:29:23.016 --> 00:29:25.746 I mean, I should start with putting the stuff that I do on my own 00:29:25.746 --> 00:29:28.386 land, like my initial page, right? 00:29:28.386 --> 00:29:32.226 I don't even say on my side, if you got a simple file, upload.com, you wouldn't 00:29:32.226 --> 00:29:36.876 even know I do image resizing or image tagging, or you can limit, like you don't, 00:29:36.906 --> 00:29:38.436 I don't have any of that stuff on there. 00:29:38.436 --> 00:29:41.936 The pages from over a year ago when I launched this product 00:29:41.936 --> 00:29:44.876 without any of these features and it literally just uploaded files. 00:29:45.056 --> 00:29:46.616 Now it does all these other things. 00:29:47.116 --> 00:29:48.946 Michele: I feel like there's a theme here of like, 00:29:49.876 --> 00:29:50.386 tell 00:29:50.386 --> 00:29:52.276 people about the thing you made. 00:29:52.516 --> 00:29:57.496 But I think that was also a title of an episode, like a year or two ago. 00:29:57.886 --> 00:30:02.350 So I feel like, I feel like we have a, a running theme. 00:30:02.448 --> 00:30:04.848 I guess I'm just curious how you're going to like balance that. 00:30:04.848 --> 00:30:08.141 I know that there's been times when, you know, like when you move to 00:30:08.141 --> 00:30:11.861 California, for example, you basically didn't touch simple upload for like two 00:30:11.891 --> 00:30:14.951 simple file upload for like two months. 00:30:15.448 --> 00:30:19.754 Um, and I wonder if you're going to go back in that state or. 00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:24.489 Colleen: Well, I don't know because this workshop, if I look at all 00:30:24.489 --> 00:30:29.099 of these things, this workshop is super high priority because there's 00:30:29.099 --> 00:30:30.299 a ton of work I have to get done. 00:30:30.803 --> 00:30:35.293 And the Laravel of ELs, the Nova stuff we were just talking about, to me if I had 00:30:35.293 --> 00:30:40.123 to list these in order of priority right now, first week of April would be the 00:30:40.123 --> 00:30:43.603 workshop because that's six weeks away and I don't have anything done for it. 00:30:43.663 --> 00:30:46.693 I have a ton of work to do the Nova stuff. 00:30:47.196 --> 00:30:49.446 Wait, the workshop, get organized. 00:30:49.476 --> 00:30:51.186 That hardly counts because that takes like two hours. 00:30:51.456 --> 00:30:53.046 The Nova landing page. 00:30:53.586 --> 00:30:54.766 The simple file upload. 00:30:55.763 --> 00:30:58.763 Michele: I would put the Laravel Nova stuff first. 00:30:58.793 --> 00:31:02.876 I think that's even more important than getting organized, right. 00:31:02.936 --> 00:31:06.289 Is like start being able to sell 00:31:06.534 --> 00:31:06.834 Colleen: Yeah. 00:31:06.864 --> 00:31:07.074 Yeah. 00:31:07.074 --> 00:31:07.434 You're right. 00:31:07.434 --> 00:31:08.844 We need to, we need to sell some stuff. 00:31:09.024 --> 00:31:11.684 I mean, you'd still put it below the workshop though. 00:31:12.187 --> 00:31:14.857 Michele: No, no, I think that's your top priority, right? 00:31:15.605 --> 00:31:15.995 Colleen: Okay. 00:31:16.492 --> 00:31:17.182 That's interesting. 00:31:18.305 --> 00:31:20.765 I mean, I could whip out a landing page and I mean, not that 00:31:20.765 --> 00:31:22.385 will be excellent, but 00:31:22.460 --> 00:31:22.730 Michele: Right. 00:31:22.730 --> 00:31:23.480 It doesn't have to be 00:31:23.480 --> 00:31:23.987 perfect. 00:31:24.050 --> 00:31:24.170 It 00:31:24.170 --> 00:31:25.010 just needs to be 00:31:25.340 --> 00:31:27.140 like, we just talked about doing two videos. 00:31:27.140 --> 00:31:30.230 Just launch it with one that just tells, shows people what it does. 00:31:31.165 --> 00:31:31.585 Right. 00:31:31.645 --> 00:31:33.175 Like, you don't need the longer one. 00:31:33.175 --> 00:31:35.125 Like, Just start with the minimum you need. 00:31:35.125 --> 00:31:38.568 And once we get it installed, we'll give you a testimonial. 00:31:38.624 --> 00:31:41.672 And you know, then you can write, this is awesome, michelle Hanson, do your 00:31:41.772 --> 00:31:43.552 Geocodio, or maybe you just quote Matias. 00:31:43.552 --> 00:31:45.362 So it's not like, you know, it's a little bit distant. 00:31:45.812 --> 00:31:51.844 Um, um, right, but like, just start with that and then. 00:31:52.593 --> 00:31:55.383 And then I think if you also get that going, like you get that out there and 00:31:55.383 --> 00:32:00.213 people know about it, then after the workshop, then you can be like, okay, 00:32:00.213 --> 00:32:03.563 like, what are some, like other Laravel places where we can start promoting this 00:32:03.563 --> 00:32:07.763 and like, maybe get you on some podcasts or like, all that kind of, you know, kind 00:32:07.763 --> 00:32:11.236 of like a press blitz, um, around it too. 00:32:12.496 --> 00:32:14.326 And you're also not doing the workshop alone. 00:32:14.686 --> 00:32:16.726 So like that's not all on you. 00:32:16.856 --> 00:32:20.086 Colleen: Well, I mean, I'm taking Erin and he doesn't know 00:32:20.086 --> 00:32:21.826 rails, so it's mostly all on me. 00:32:22.576 --> 00:32:25.186 Michele: But he also is part of building the product. 00:32:25.186 --> 00:32:25.726 So, 00:32:26.566 --> 00:32:32.249 And he is like the, he's like the ringmaster for Sequel like 00:32:32.399 --> 00:32:37.909 people really like hearing him talk about sequel and queries. 00:32:37.969 --> 00:32:43.000 And I, I mean like of all of like the unique talents to have, it is a very, 00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:48.310 very relevant one, um, for what you're doing, but like you're not alone in that. 00:32:48.590 --> 00:32:49.130 Colleen: That's true. 00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:52.370 No, he can, absolutely, and he will be, I have to figure out how to do 00:32:52.370 --> 00:32:56.630 that, but absolutely can work with me to figure out the content and how 00:32:56.630 --> 00:32:59.630 we want to structure it and how much we want to expose and all of that. 00:33:00.126 --> 00:33:00.756 A hundred percent. 00:33:01.966 --> 00:33:02.236 Wow. 00:33:02.733 --> 00:33:03.093 Okay. 00:33:03.590 --> 00:33:04.370 Cool. 00:33:04.870 --> 00:33:08.350 Michele: Maybe getting organized, like you'd need like mini organizing, not like 00:33:08.785 --> 00:33:09.535 Colleen: Oh, yeah, let's 00:33:09.550 --> 00:33:10.820 Michele: full, like mini 00:33:11.110 --> 00:33:12.610 organizing first 00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:14.065 Colleen: Mini first. 00:33:14.095 --> 00:33:16.458 I'll do that this week, like tomorrow 00:33:16.503 --> 00:33:19.473 Michele: landing page for Nova, Refine plus Nova. 00:33:19.653 --> 00:33:22.596 Um, and then work. 00:33:23.101 --> 00:33:23.431 Colleen: Okay. 00:33:23.611 --> 00:33:24.691 This sounds like a great plan. 00:33:25.191 --> 00:33:26.751 Michele: I just like planning out the workshop. 00:33:26.761 --> 00:33:29.001 So at least, you know, what the work is to be done. 00:33:29.051 --> 00:33:33.000 Like I find that just planning something out helps with knowing what the work 00:33:33.030 --> 00:33:38.277 is and that reduces some of the, like the stress going into something like, 00:33:38.777 --> 00:33:41.747 I always need at least like a mental outline for something which I actually 00:33:42.077 --> 00:33:43.487 don't even have for my own workshop. 00:33:43.497 --> 00:33:48.607 So I think for me, like over the next week, once I get over my jet lag and, 00:33:48.877 --> 00:33:53.647 you know, finish taking a machete through my various, very clogged inboxes. 00:33:54.147 --> 00:33:59.397 I need to like read one of those books by the time we talk again and 00:34:00.117 --> 00:34:03.500 share something of value to you. 00:34:03.800 --> 00:34:09.334 I can help with your workshop and maybe have my own like, My own, I don't know. 00:34:09.344 --> 00:34:11.764 I think I need like a sketch or like an agenda. 00:34:11.764 --> 00:34:15.380 And I guess I also need to make sure that all of my talks are 00:34:15.380 --> 00:34:21.490 together because my first talk of this little road show is the 19th. 00:34:21.550 --> 00:34:26.191 It's an online talk for a UI breakfast. 00:34:26.641 --> 00:34:28.861 So I have something on the 19th and I'm doing a practice 00:34:28.861 --> 00:34:31.891 workshop, the 25th for CPH UX. 00:34:31.921 --> 00:34:35.272 And then I'm doing a another practice interview workshop. 00:34:35.302 --> 00:34:36.602 No, no, it's not practice here. 00:34:36.652 --> 00:34:37.552 See, I'm getting this all confused. 00:34:37.552 --> 00:34:38.122 I'm doing okay. 00:34:38.182 --> 00:34:40.745 Oh, I am doing a practice interview workshop for the calm fund 00:34:40.745 --> 00:34:42.648 portfolio companies in early may. 00:34:42.648 --> 00:34:48.998 And then I'm also doing a troubleshooting interviews workshop in like early mid may. 00:34:49.100 --> 00:34:52.790 So I also need to make sure that like all of my ducks are in a row and my outlines 00:34:52.790 --> 00:34:56.000 and everything for all of those, because I, I need to be able to keep myself. 00:34:56.750 --> 00:34:57.117 Colleen: Yup. 00:34:57.975 --> 00:34:59.835 Michele: then somehow get all of my other ones. 00:34:59.960 --> 00:35:00.590 Colleen: And still do our 00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:01.350 Michele: Done. 00:35:01.830 --> 00:35:02.610 Right, exactly. 00:35:02.610 --> 00:35:05.010 Like, I know someone reached out to me like that they had been, like, 00:35:05.010 --> 00:35:09.180 someone had recommended me to do like a UX, research consulting for them. 00:35:09.690 --> 00:35:13.550 And I was like, sorry, like, you know, I just don't have the bandwidth to take 00:35:13.550 --> 00:35:15.860 this on like a to to take consulting on. 00:35:16.364 --> 00:35:18.164 And then they were like, well, what about a full-time job? 00:35:18.164 --> 00:35:22.359 And I was, no, like I already run a company, like, I'm sorry. 00:35:23.049 --> 00:35:27.109 Like, this book thing was supposed to be like this fun little side 00:35:27.109 --> 00:35:30.679 project for a period of time and then it would go away, I guess. 00:35:31.129 --> 00:35:35.356 Um, Yeah, man got to have the full-time job and the side 00:35:35.356 --> 00:35:37.806 projects and all the things. 00:35:37.926 --> 00:35:39.096 Colleen: all the things. 00:35:39.096 --> 00:35:40.266 Michele: Oh, the things. 00:35:40.296 --> 00:35:40.896 Okay. 00:35:41.397 --> 00:35:42.147 Good chats. 00:35:42.367 --> 00:35:42.547 Colleen: Good 00:35:42.547 --> 00:35:42.937 chat. 00:35:43.047 --> 00:35:44.057 Michele: guess we should get back to. 00:35:44.560 --> 00:35:45.010 Colleen: All right. 00:35:45.010 --> 00:35:46.870 Goal oriented, execute. 00:35:48.054 --> 00:35:48.454 Michele: See yah. 00:35:48.954 --> 00:35:52.434 Just want to say, thanks again to Bento for sponsoring today's 00:35:52.434 --> 00:35:57.444 episode, head to bento now.com to book a demo and see what developer- 00:35:57.444 --> 00:35:59.334 friendly email marketing looks like.