Mike Kostyo (00:00) In this episode of the Mess Hall, we talk about some of the hospitality lessons from a recent trip to New Orleans, and we talk about the language that the food industry uses. Should we use the term consumers, and is there a better word to use? Mike Kostyo (00:51) All right. So for today's episode, we both are coming off of a lot of travel. We were in New Orleans and we were in Denver. And so I thought we would talk about the great experiences that we had and the maybe not so great experiences that we had hospitality wise, not even just to talk about, great food that we ate or restaurants we went to, but what can the industry learn from some of these experiences? And I'll start because I had an absolutely fantastic experience. Maeve Webster (00:55) Thank Mike Kostyo (01:19) at a restaurant called Mr. B's. So I was in town for the Naffam show, which is the Food Service Equipment Manufacturers Association. And concurrently, the orthopedic surgeons conference was in New Orleans. And so it's 26,000 orthopedic surgeons that had descended on the town. And so the very first night I was there, I just needed to get dinner. Near the hotel was this Mr. B's, which is kind of like an old school, I guess I would say like a Chicago steakhouse. Maeve Webster (01:31) So. Mike Kostyo (01:47) if you transported it to New Orleans, like clubby and know, like banquets and things like that. And it's from the Brennan's family. And so I should have known with the, didn't know that the orthopedic surgeons were there until that night, but I got there. And of course the entire place is absolutely packed because it feels clubby like that. And so I said, do you have room? And he didn't even offer me a time, which is the second time that it happened while we were there, that they didn't give us a wait time. It was, you're just never going to be seated. And so. Maeve Webster (02:12) Exactly. No. Goodbye. Mike Kostyo (02:15) No. Thanks for coming. And so I said, is the bar open seating? And he said, yes. And so I sat at the bar and I was between an older couple. When I say older, I know this because the husband was celebrating his 89th birthday, also named Mike. And his wife was there right next to me. So they were celebrating this birthday. And on the left of me was a younger couple who were there to sell to the orthopedic surgeon. And over the course of the night, I ordered a martini and I started talking to them. And I learned about Mike and his wife and how they actually just bought a house in New Orleans. They lived in Napa Valley. And I mean, I don't think they're going to listen in. So I think I could say this. I mean, she even started telling me about her daughter doesn't necessarily get along with her. And I was learning all of this about the two people on the one side of me. And then the two people on the other side were not having a great experience. They weren't selling to the orthopedic surgeons. And so they were getting drunk because they were so mad about it. And then at one point, the bartender, and I have to say for a massive bar that was packed with people, there were maybe two bartenders. And it's New Orleans. You better know your stuff in New Orleans if you're going to be a bartender. And she did. She checked up on everybody. She knew where you were and your drink. And she still somehow found time to talk to you and ask you why you're in town and what you're doing. Maeve Webster (03:09) Mm. Mike Kostyo (03:33) And so at some point, I was the only person that wasn't an orthopedic surgeon there. And so I had said that I work in the food industry. And so she told me about this oyster farm that she knew, which I believe is called Gulf Isle Oysters, she said that they had developed some way of moving the oysters out of the way when inclement weather comes in, because I guess the freshwater that is pushed in instantly kills the oysters. Maeve Webster (03:57) Hmm. Mike Kostyo (03:57) And so they found a way to move all the oysters out of the way when the storm comes in and then move them right back. And so she's like, you can actually have these oysters at this place called Fives. And then the menu itself, I mean, the meal I had was fantastic as well. had the barbecue shrimp, which is they have the recipe on their website and it's three sticks of butter. for 16 shrimp, so it better be good. But it was absolutely delicious. They come out, they bib you, and they say, you know, can I bib you, sir? And you're like, of course, bib me. And so they put the bib over you. And so the experience, and it was the first night in New Orleans, was absolutely fantastic. I've told this story multiple times. It was so memorable. It felt like I was really in New Orleans. And it made me think about, the amount of times that we talk about the experience that people have in restaurants these days. And we always present this one slide, which is a picture of all these kiosks in a restaurant. And you walk in and you put your order into the kiosk. And then your number comes up and you get it out of a cubby hole. And it's that very transactional experience. You always say it's basically walking into a vending machine. And this was the exact opposite of that. so the amount of time that these brands spend on some of the, yes, the menu matters, of course, absolutely. But some of the things. that are not the experience that a customer has at the end of the day. The number of times that a brand does not ask themselves, did they have a great experience? On a scale of 1 to 10, what was that experience like? How do we create spaces that people want to have experiences like this in? It matters so much. I think this was just a really great example of that personally for me. Maeve Webster (05:35) The menu does matter, Mike. Mike Kostyo (05:37) That's so true. Yeah. No. Yeah. Maeve Webster (05:39) Never forget it. Never forget it. Just saying. ⁓ So we did have, I mean, I would say we had great experiences everywhere. You now that you're saying it, I can't think of a really bad experience we had, to be honest with you. So of all these, we would, we might not name them. Mike Kostyo (05:54) Mm-hmm. No, yeah, right, absolutely. And we would say if we had a bad experience. Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah. We're pretty vocal, yeah. Maeve Webster (06:06) but we would definitely tell you about it. You know, pretty opinionated. But I would say one of the surprise turnarounds was when Richard, my brother, took us to, and I cannot remember the name of the place we went for lunch. It was as far as we knew, not that we know New Orleans in depth, but it was kind of in the middle of nowhere from where, certainly from where the quarter is, right? Very local. Mike Kostyo (06:15) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Maeve Webster (06:33) no frills place that has seafood. We sat at the bar, packed to the gills, grabbed a couple of bar seats. We were right in front of the guy shucking oysters just nonstop. The place was packed and when we sat down, it took a while for somebody to take our drink order. We kind of were at that point where it was like, is somebody gonna take our drink order, right? But then when the- Mike Kostyo (06:53) And we were ready for one, yeah, at that point. Maeve Webster (06:55) We were, we were definitely ready for one at that point. But when the guy finally came, I don't know if it was the owner or whatever, when he finally came over, the fact that he apologized and then it was what can I get you? And then he kept coming back because I think he realized we had waited a long time, but he was the only person behind the bar. you we got, but I don't know how you felt about that, but by the end, I didn't care that we had waited because he clearly, he demonstrated to us. without being effusive or fake or whatever, he demonstrated that it was only because they were busy and he clearly cared and he wanted to make sure we left with a good experience. And so I thought that was a great lesson in turning it around. You don't need to make it a dramatic turnaround. You don't need to do big gestures, but as long as you are sincerely concerned about the experience somebody's having and you make it very clear that you are there to make sure they have a good time and you are sorry for whatever may have happened. I thought that was a great turnaround because by the time we left there, we were all in a great mood and on to the next place. Mike Kostyo (07:57) Absolutely. And I think that's the theme that comes up over and over. It's just noticing. Noticing people, noticing the experiences that they're having. When I say at Mr. B's, I had that conversation with the bartender, it's because she at one point checked up on me. And actually, that conversation is what led to me talking to the younger couple on the left side of me, because they heard I was in the food industry. So all it took was that one question and that one moment of reaching out to somebody. Like you said, it's not like we were unaware that the restaurant was busy when we were there. We knew they were swamped. All it took was them saying, we still see you. We understand. Yes, it's super crazy. think another good example, and I apologize, I'm coming off a little cold, another good example. Brennan's clearly just does a good job in general with training. That breakfast, we did their Brennan's breakfast, is, what was it? Five courses. Maeve Webster (08:44) was such a great breakfast. Mike Kostyo (08:52) cocktail pairings, after the fourth or fifth cocktail, who can remember. But one thing that they do is they put a sash on the table for people who are celebrating something. and a lot of people were celebrating an anniversary or they were there on their honeymoon. And it wasn't like they went overboard. they didn't come out singing songs. wasn't that type of thing. Maeve Webster (08:52) Number 16. Mike Kostyo (09:12) But it just showcased, like we saw you. saw and probably all it took was an open table note that yes, we are celebrating a little bit something. you felt seen. And we didn't have a little sash. We weren't necessarily celebrating. I know. We should just make something up exactly, seriously. they do the bananas foster table side still to this day. Maeve Webster (09:25) Sadly, we could have lied, we should have lied. That was great. Mike Kostyo (09:34) I mean, for them to do that over and over and over and he still tells this story. I really felt like I learned something. And it's still absolutely delicious. Like there's a reason it became so popular. I mean, for what was it? 80 bucks. We were there for two, two and a half hours. We had personal service. The food was fantastic. both of us left there. Like we truly had a fantastic experience. They know what they're doing. Maeve Webster (09:58) Well, particularly for a place that is in the middle of the tourist Mecca, right? It could be the quintessential tourist experience, right? Where it's rote, it's kind of half-assed because you know people are going to pay for it anyway. But the gentleman who was taking care of us, when he did the bananas fosters, to your point, he's probably going to do that four dozen more times before he's off his shift, right? Mike Kostyo (10:02) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (10:21) He did not seem bored. He did not seem like, God, another man, a foster. Mike Kostyo (10:23) Mm hmm. Yes, yes. Just reading it off the script that he has in his mind. Absolutely. Maeve Webster (10:30) Right. I mean, certainly he had a script, but you know, when we asked questions or made jokes, it wasn't like all of sudden he was thrown off of the script and he didn't know what to do. Right. ⁓ So that that was actually such a great experience. And I was afraid that it was going to be really overpriced and touristy, but it was nothing of the sort. Even when we left, I felt like it was such an incredible value. The food was great. Mike Kostyo (10:33) Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Agreed. Yes. At a time when we're talking about value all the time, right? Yes, absolutely. I I've spent $80 at a casual chain restaurant and had much worse experiences. so then we went out to Denver and we talked about in our presentation there, just the human touch and the human factor and getting to know your customers. And one thing that we always say is that, Can you train your servers and your staff to over the course of an interaction, just learn one thing about the customer? It doesn't have to be major. just ask one question, and then use that information. That's the other part of it. You always use the example of the hotel that asks you, are you here for business or pleasure? And then they never do anything with that information. But how often is that the case? And so I always tell the story, yes, right? Maeve Webster (11:37) always Mike Kostyo (11:39) that when I worked at a coffee shop, we noticed, this was years ago, I was in high school, and we noticed that a lot of women were coming in from a Pilati studio that was in the building, and they were in a rush. and we thought they were rushing to get to class, but actually it was because we had no place to put their strollers. They had brought their kids. And so they parked them in the hallway and then came and got their coffee real quick and then ran out back into the hallway. And so what we did was move in the morning, we knew they were coming. We moved a couple of chairs out of the way and there was a little stroller area that they could move into. All it took was asking them and then talking with our team and then making a slight change. again, customers felt seen at the end of the day. And that's exactly what we just talked about. It felt like we were seen constantly throughout our travels. Maeve Webster (12:21) agree. And I love that story that you just told because we're not talking about a ton of resources you need to invest. We're not talking about rethinking your concept or you have to premiumize your entire menu. We're never ever saying that in anything that we ever talk about. There are very simple, cost free, essentially solutions, just moving some tables and chairs ended up creating a solution for these people who could now come in and relax and enjoy the experience of being in that coffee shop. We also talk about personalize, right? The idea of allowing your customers to personalize experience or trying to personalize it for them. So one of the restaurants that I went into in Denver with a client, they are one of our favorites, took me out to dinner at Wildflower. Mike Kostyo (12:54) Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (13:09) And this experience was, first of all, fantastic. Chef's Kiss. If you're in Denver, you've got to go to Wildflower. It really is, the food is great. But what they did is they have a set price menu prefix, but they call them bouquets. So they have a small bouquet and a large bouquet. Okay, so first of all, keeping with the brand, right? Like having a very clear voice. It's a little, know, kitschy, but it works, right? Mike Kostyo (13:32) Yeah. Maeve Webster (13:33) It really does work. So you could do it with cocktail pairings. We decided to just do the small bouquet for the table. Now it says five to six dishes. I think easily we got eight in the end, first of all. And what they do, though, is that unlike a lot of prefix menus where it's like, here is the menu and every single table in the entire place, if you get the prefix, that is what you're getting. Same experience for everybody, which is fine if that's what you're doing. But what they did is before Mike Kostyo (13:44) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (14:02) they brought anything out, the server asked you, what kind of things do you like? Is there anything on the menu that really stands out? Why does it stand out to you? What are you guys feeling? What kind of experience do you want? And then the server for every single table personalized the bouquet that came out. And not only personalized, it wasn't like you selected. He just asked you these questions to get a feel for what you liked, what you didn't like, what resonated, what was really like catching your eye. Not only personalized it to that, but then made sure that the entire menu flowed based on that. So every single table had a different experience with whatever bouquet size. I mean, it's not about customization. It's not about a million and a half decisions that somebody needs to make where they can do whatever they want to and create whatever niche crazy product that they're going to create. Mike Kostyo (14:45) Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (14:51) It's just to your point about listening, hearing, acknowledging that every person who comes in is a different person and then allowing that to shine and making that informing all of the decisions that you're making, not just on the menu, but in the service that you're giving to every table. Mike Kostyo (15:07) I love that. I love that story. And it wasn't a million dollars. It wasn't a $500 meal or anything like that. Yeah. So if they can do it. Maeve Webster (15:11) No, no, no, not at all. Again, right, again, we left there feeling like, wow, what an incredible value. Even though we were paying more than you would at a casual dining restaurant, still left there thinking I would have paid more. Like I would have paid more for that experience. Mike Kostyo (15:19) The voucher? Absolutely. Sure, sure. I mean, isn't that what you want people to say? I would have paid more for that. Absolutely. I mean, that's what I felt at Brendan. I mean, the cocktails were so well done. at today's day and age when a cocktail is $17, $20, I feel like those five cocktails together were worth the $80. We're not even counting the food that we had. because I think it always comes back, well, we don't have time. We don't have the budget. Maeve Webster (15:42) Thank Mike Kostyo (15:52) Will Guadarra and Unreasonable Hospitality and that book showcases that you can see people, and you don't have to spend a million dollars on this type of stuff. one of the examples that he uses is I think it's a UPS store, a FedEx store. I believe it was in Florida. And the proprietor of that store had a small budget. I forget what it was, you know, a hundred bucks a day maybe. And each employee of that store got the agency to, ⁓ right off one customer's order for that day. And so they just had to listen to the customer. Maybe somebody came in, they were having a tough day, they were clearly stressed out, whatever it was. I mean, what's UPS, an average order these days? 20 bucks, 30 bucks. So over the course of a day, you're sure you're writing off 100 bucks Would you not feel seen that that person is, I see that you're having a really tough day. This one's on us. Don't worry about it. Leave it with us. We'll get it where it needs to go. Maeve Webster (16:31) ⁓ I would assume, right. Mike Kostyo (16:46) Don't even worry about paying. isn't that budget worth whatever you spent on the billboard that day or the local influencer? It doesn't cost an arm and a leg to do this type of Maeve Webster (16:56) You know, what you're saying about UPS, they've got to have some kind of a training because my parents lived in an apartment building or condo building where UPS was on the ground floor. So they were going to UPS quite a bit for a variety of things. And the individual that was in that store was there almost the entire time they were in that building. And I got to tell you, that guy took such good care of my parents that my parents would bring him honey. from our hives because he said that his daughter loved honey. And they had this great relationship and you know, their printer broke down and they went down. They asked if they could have something printed out and he would just print stuff out and wouldn't charge them. I don't know if he's working there. Hopefully he's not going to. But my mother now lives across town and will go across town back to that UPS store simply because she feels so comfortable and knows that that guy is going to take care of her. Not give her Mike Kostyo (17:33) Not. Yeah. Maeve Webster (17:49) things for free, but we'll just make sure the package is well packed, that it will get where it needs to go. I mean, that's the kind of loyalty, frankly, you almost can't get anymore. But if you can build it, I it's priceless. Mike Kostyo (17:51) Yeah! Mm-hmm. so I think we can just get right into the conversation. That's the the main topic of this episode, because you talked about how wild was it wildflower? the restaurant, Wildflower, named the small bouquet and the large bouquet. I love that because how many particularly fine dining does this all the time, How many times you go in and you feel like you're making the cheap decision because you didn't get the truffles or because you didn't get the fancy meat. I'm just going to have the smaller one or so. Just naming the two options, both of them sound very appealing. You're getting a bouquet either way. Maeve Webster (18:12) But welfare. And now. Mike Kostyo (18:36) just makes it acceptable to make that choice you know, the conversation that we're going to have today is around, you know, naming and how we use language in the food industry. But I think that's a great example of it right there. Maeve Webster (18:46) ⁓ think so too. And I think this issue of language is something that has come up off and on, right? In retail and in food service. I don't think that the industry has really tackled it the way it needs to tackle it. And considering where we're at right now with regard to perceived value of food service, perceived value of brands, judging what's worth the money and what's worth the spend. Mike Kostyo (19:11) Mm-hmm Maeve Webster (19:12) I would say language is even more important than it used to be. I think unfortunately, I don't know if you agree with this, but I think unfortunately because we have focused on pictures and videos and images for so many years because of social media and like Instagram ability and the whole thing, that we have discounted the importance of language. And though sure, there's the argument people aren't reading quite as much as they used to. Mike Kostyo (19:26) Hmm Maeve Webster (19:39) they are still reading and the language is still there, whether they read it or somebody else talks about it. And I think we've taken that for granted to our own detriment. Mike Kostyo (19:48) Mm-hmm. And the reason that we're having this conversation is because we had a conversation on this trip. So we were at a restaurant called Akamaya in New Orleans, which was absolutely phenomenal. I cannot recommend that. But about the word consumer. so we've internally in the industry and beyond had this conversation constantly about whether consumer is the correct term for the people that we're serving at the end of the day. I remember when I first started in the food industry, Maeve Webster (19:59) Yeah, amazing. Mike Kostyo (20:16) And so I had come from politics and politics does not use consumer, it uses voter. But it's almost the same kind of ideas. You don't use the word person that's, know, kind of distilling the person down into the demographic and the thing that you're trying to extract from them at the end of the day. So we were having this conversation at Akamaya about whether we should continue using the term consumer. And part of it is because, on social media, I don't know if you've seen this, but I've seen a number of people really bristle at that term. seeing posts on LinkedIn or seeing ⁓ brands on TikTok or Instagram using that term consumer to stand in for the person or the customer at the end of the day. And people in the comments will be like, I'm not just a consumer. Is that all I am to you? At the end of the day, am I just my wallet and you're just trying to extract money out of me? And so I think there's been a pushback brewing from people and it's going to be, you know, we're still learning not to use this terminology, but there's a real pushback that I want to be seen as more than that. I want to be seen as a human being that you are serving as a real person who deserves respect so ultimately at the end of that conversation, we said that we're going to try to And we'll talk about why it's been kind of difficult, but we're going to try to get away from using that terminology of the consumer. Maeve Webster (21:39) So it's interesting and part of our conversation at Akamai was that I had listened to a podcast which must have been like six or eight years ago, right? So it was a while ago. This podcast was talking about when we as a country changed from calling people at that time, essentially citizens to calling people consumers, right? And I could not find that podcast again. It was so long ago. I'm not sure which one it was. Mike Kostyo (21:59) Mm-hmm. That's Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (22:06) But I did a little research on this just for our podcast. So I could inform and educate people. So it's very interesting. This switch from citizen to consumer happened actually as a result of politics, not economics. And without getting into all the political thing, because Lord knows politics can blow up in all of our faces now, regardless of what you say. What happened was at the time, Mike Kostyo (22:09) wow! ⁓ Mmm. Maeve Webster (22:34) the term citizen was considered a victim. Somebody who had no control, who was essentially a victim of circumstances and right. And so they began to change and use the term consumer because a consumer had authority over their decisions. A consumer was choosing where they were spending their money. A consumer was in control of where the economy went and what kind of products were coming out. Mike Kostyo (22:38) Mmm. Mmm. Hmm. Mmm. Mmm. Maeve Webster (23:01) And so consumer was considered something that simply had more control over their life and was a stronger statement. So it's very interesting. that it was used not for marketing, not for economics, not for selling things, not essentially a commoditized individual, but because they had more power and more, you know, onus over what they were doing. now, yeah. Mike Kostyo (23:06) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah That is very interesting. I'll just say really quick, because when I conceptualize those two words, when I think of citizen, I think of a member, like a member of the country or a member of the community. And we all have our part to play. And yes, when I hear consumer now, it's the way that we think of it kind of in the industry as that person who is ultimately consuming a product and purchasing it. So that's very interesting, ⁓ just how the language and the perception of those terms has changed. Maeve Webster (23:49) Right. And obviously, I think this was in the 1920s, 30s, 40s, like in that area. So you have to consider what was going on then and the politics and all that. But it's interesting now. the fact that now, however, and I would say that this is broadly not to call anybody out in any one industry. I think this is true across all industries. Mike Kostyo (23:52) Mm-mm-mm. ⁓ Sure, sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Maeve Webster (24:07) Consumers are, it's no longer about consumer power of choice, power of decision making. Now it's that consumers are those who we can get money out of. Consumers are those we are selling things to. And it's almost come full circle where the term consumer has less power, is commoditized, and people are pushing back on that idea that they are nothing more than essentially a potential dollar sign for revenue and profitability, right? Mike Kostyo (24:10) Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (24:35) We have now seen this whole thing turn around and now consumers are the ones, not politicians, but consumers are the ones who are pushing back against this term. But to your point, we have been so trained. mean, when I first started in the industry, when you first first started in the industry, you are trained to use the term consumer largely because it's more professional. Mike Kostyo (24:38) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, yes, yes. I don't think it's nefarious. we've decided to use this term because we want to, depersonalize people. I don't think that's the case, yeah. Maeve Webster (25:05) No, it is, it's a first of all, a non gendered, right? More professional term to use than people, person, ⁓ certainly using any kind of gendered term. So there is that, but boy, I'll tell you that training is hard to reverse. Mike Kostyo (25:08) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓ that's the thing. so you wrote a little description that we're going to put in the beginning of our report that calls out that, we're trying to make this switch. And so we started going through. went through our capabilities presentation. And it is so difficult like people, you know, your person, people, it sounds so generic. just doesn't sound, from the perspective of somebody doing a report on, consumers. There we we're going to research people. It just sounds so generic. so then, customer. And I have heard people online say that they prefer customer because they feel like it gives them more agency in their transaction. And so we've used that. Maeve Webster (25:46) You write a professional writing Mm-hmm. Mike Kostyo (26:00) Guests, certainly in the restaurant space. On the CPG side or on the retail side, that's been where it's very difficult. What do you call? A shopper is just another word for a consumer. And then I think there's also, if you work in the food industry, Maeve Webster (26:02) Patron. Mike Kostyo (26:16) term consumer is often used just as kind of not an operator. So the operator is somebody running a restaurant or running a business. And so the consumer is, the person purchasing at the end of the day. So research, there's operator research where you're studying chefs and restaurant operators. And then there's consumer research where you're, studying the buyers at the end of the day. And so it's just that differentiator. And so when you say operators versus people, Well, operators, we've said this before, operators are people too at the end of the day. ⁓ So what is the version or the language that we use for the person in that instance? It's been really, really tricky. Maeve Webster (26:51) Yeah, it has. And we've talked about, you know, the term user as well, right? And while it kind of smacks of consumer, but now that I'm thinking about it, I would say user actually is more active. Mike Kostyo (26:56) Mm-hmm Maeve Webster (27:06) So I think like it is a professional user and personal user, because I think here's the here's the problem, right? I agree with you using the term consumer is not a nefarious thing, but I do think what it has done, like so many terms that end up being kind of Mike Kostyo (27:17) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (27:22) this is gonna sound more negative, but mindlessly used, That just simply becomes a habit. It depersonalizes, dehumanize can be very triggering, dehumanizes people, they're faceless, they're just numbers on a board. And I think given now that we're entering a time culturally, economically, politically, where Mike Kostyo (27:25) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (27:46) just like we were talking about with our travel, people want to be seen, they want to be considered as individuals. There is samification across absolutely every other element of our lives in social media, in technology, in retail products and everything, right? That we want to now be seen as individuals, as somebody who is worth consideration beyond the mass, right? That I think as an industry, we need to be mindful of this change. And if we continue to use terms that if they leak out, like we've seen with pink slime, perfect example, there was nothing nefarious about that. It was simply used because everybody knew what it was. It wasn't meant for public consumption. It was just a tech term internally. the minute it got out there, people were like, what are you talking about pink slime? What is it? And there was nothing wrong with that product, but the name. Mike Kostyo (28:36) Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (28:42) sunk that ingredient, right? I think we need to be a lot more mindful that particularly now there are no terms that will remain back of house. There are no terms that will remain outside of public consumption. Everything will get out. And are we always remembering that every product we make outside of packaging, but even that now is going to be going into somebody's body and they don't want you to be thinking of that as some Mike Kostyo (29:05) Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (29:09) inanimate, non-consumed thing they want you to be thinking about is something that they are putting in their body, their children's bodies, their loved ones' bodies, their friends' bodies. This is an incredibly intimate thing. You and I say this all the time, and we need to be using terms that show that we respect that relationship. Mike Kostyo (29:09) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes, that's what it comes down to. I think it's that idea of respect. I think that's what people think are missing from that conversation. And I do think it's part and parcel of the larger conversation around the food industry is out to get me. They are making decisions that are not good for me. I think on a larger level, we have lost a lot of respect. But I think this is part of that. I think the user terminology is so interesting because so we often say we're a very human-centric brand. Maeve Webster (29:35) Thank Mike Kostyo (29:55) Like at the end of the day, we're constantly trying to figure out the human demand and the human desire and the human emotion that goes into the food choices that we make. And a lot of that comes out of the design industries, the tech industries. They use that terminology all the time. Like human-centric design is baked into so many projects that are done on the design side of the industry. And you hear that user experience, UX all the time, where it's literally bringing somebody in to use the computer, the new tech tool, and watching them. And what are the pain points? And what do they talk about? And so should we do that in the food industry? Absolutely, of course, 100%. we talk all the time about how it's very easy for us to get into our heads. And the number of sessions that we've been in where theoretically we're making a product for a person at the end of the day, but you can go hours and you never even talk about those people. You think about your own budget and why something didn't work previously and you don't have the manpower to produce it. And you could have spent an entire day and then get there and be like, actually, does our core customer even want this? Maeve Webster (31:01) mentioning this idea of human centric design. We need human centric language. We need language that reflects that people are eating this. This is something that largely is made out of natural ingredients, whether they are whole ingredients or based on natural ingredients. We need language that is better reflecting the fact that Mike Kostyo (31:06) Exactly. Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (31:22) These are human centric products. need human centric language throughout the industry used back of house, front of house, in manufacturing the whole nine yards. Mike Kostyo (31:24) Mm-hmm. it is the idea that even if it wasn't nefarious, even if we're not using consumer because we want to depersonalize somebody, language does matter. There's no doubt about it. Do I think that in an organization, you can use the word consumer so much and we can talk about consumers in these demographic profiles where it's, we've got our salad eating moms over here and we have our Gen Z, they only like sour candy eaters over here. We never actually think of that like it's a real person. It's a real person with emotion, exactly what you just said, concerns about their health, the reasons why they're purchasing things. the economic precariousness that they're dealing with right now, we put everybody into these boxes. And to some extent, I think having that impersonal language can make it easier for us to do that. Maeve Webster (32:19) And I do think those groups that you were talking about, most or many companies have those user groups, right? Where you are trying to sort through your, prioritize those individuals who are most likely to buy your product most frequently, you know, willing to pay a lot for it all the way through to the infrequent users. the one thing I would say about Mike Kostyo (32:24) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (32:42) those while I have issue with that because I agree with you. It's constantly trying to force large groups of people into buckets of assumptions. But the fact that you can say, you know, again, salad eating moms, right, or whatever you want to call them, right, Jim bros or whatever. At the very least, it is trying to put some kind of a personality around them. It is at least acknowledging that there are smaller groups of individuals than Gen Z. Mike Kostyo (32:49) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (33:08) boomers, Gen X, right? Or male versus female versus non gender, whatever it ends up being, right? Those are massive groups. And to suggest that all women are doing one thing or another overall, anyone else is ludicrous, right? And again, we mentioned this in the earlier part of this, this idea of personalizing, I think that's what we need to be doing is thinking less about how do we sell this one thing to the masses, right? Mike Kostyo (33:08) Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (33:34) to millions of people, which of course is the goal, None of us are not-for-profits. We're all in this to make money one way the other, right? But that being said, how do you make it more personal? How do you speak personally? Which actually brings me to another thing I did wanna bring up on this podcast that came up in your Friday Five. Mike Kostyo (33:38) Hehehe. I'm sure it's the thing that I was going to bring up at some point too. Yeah, absolutely, exactly. Yeah. Maeve Webster (33:53) Okay, the emojis. Okay. Yeah, so we're talking about language matters. And of course, what we've been talking about is the impersonalization of language, right? Is dehumanizing one way or the other deliberately or not deliberately individuals. But that, that the use, overuse of emojis and this like teen bestie language is the opposite side of the spectrum. That it's, it's the importance of language Mike Kostyo (34:15) Mm-hmm Maeve Webster (34:21) not to make me feel like a child, right? And to respect the fact that unless you're selling to children and that becomes an entirely different story, right? But let's just assume we're talking about over 18, right? Adults, you're selling to adults. Respect the fact that every person over the age of 18 is working for the most part, except those who might be supported by their parents and well done. ⁓ you are working hard for the money that you're earning. Mike Kostyo (34:23) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ha ha ha ha ha ha Maeve Webster (34:48) You have increasingly limited free time. You are constantly being bombarded by things that you should buy, places you should visit, things you should be doing. Respect the fact that I'm an adult who has hard earned money and very little time and speak to me like you are selling me something that is worth my money and my time. Do not talk to me like I am a child. I saw that posted and that is so irksome to me. And granted, know I'm older and I know, I know, but it's still, mean, show me respect, right? You don't need to talk to me like an 80 year old, but you should not talk to me like a teenager. Mike Kostyo (35:16) Mm. ⁓ No! Yes. Yes. Yes, well, so that particular post, But basically, she felt like she was being charged, I think it was a good amount, like $500 more than she should be over the course of a year for some subscription. And so she reached out, maybe it was her cable company or something like that. And she could not get a solution. And yet constantly over the course of her interactions with that brand, they use that term besties and happy face emojis. Sorry, there's nothing we can do about that happy face emoji. It's so irksome. I have a legitimate issue and you are not taking it seriously. are using this, again, language that is not respectful. how many times do we all feel like they're just trying to pawn you off, they just can't wait to get off the line with you, and you see it over and over. I've actually started to see recently on social media, TikTok and Instagram, where there's a meme that people are sharing and it's bad brand. And so it's when a brand inserts themselves into a conversation and that, know, and I'm not going to name names, but all brands do it at this point. And it's like, it's the same idea, like, I'm your best friend. And I'm just in on this conversation that like, no, this is not a space for you that you do not have to chime in on everything. And I think people realize that it's transactional, that it's not them. really trying to get to know you. think, yes, was there a time when it really felt like maybe they gave some Gen Z person access to the social media password and they got to say whatever they wanted. That might have been true. Is that true anymore? No. Everybody realizes that these are well-paid social media people pretending to do that, though. They're pretending to have that quote unquote authentic voice. respect at the end of the day, it's just everything that people are asking for. how many times do we talk about the airline industry and it just feels like they do not respect you as a person, as a person that spent money, as a person that is traveling for whatever reason, for work, for a funeral, whatever it may be. And it feels like every aspect of the flying experience, that brand can just not wait to take the money out of your wallet. It does not respect you at the end. Maeve Webster (37:35) ⁓ I'm sorry for anybody who works in the airline industry who is legitimately trying to do the right thing. There are those individuals who are out there. And I've used this example before. I'm going to use it again. To show the complete lack of respect when you're on the plane and they make the announcement, for your convenience, we are now only accepting credit card payments. That has nothing to do with my convenience whatsoever. Mike Kostyo (37:39) Yes, yes. Yeah, yes. Yes. Maeve Webster (38:01) they're now not charging a convenience fee for using the credit card for your convenience is actually shocking. You know it's coming down the line, right? When they say things like that, it's the most mindless, thoughtless, ugh. And it's not just that industry. are examples that we could probably pull out. They are some of the more thoughtless industries. Mike Kostyo (38:04) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So condescending, patronizing, yes, yes, absolutely. No, yes. Yes, yes. Well, and you know, I use this example a lot, but I think it's very telling. And it was one of the better examples of a company really thinking through what the repercussions would be for real people that use their product at the end of the day. And so we were in an innovation session. It was a tech solution that a major food brand was trying to develop. And so it was here in Chicago and they had brought people in from all over the country. And so it was, I have to say, a very wide ranging group of people representing a wide range of ages and ethnicities and backgrounds, which one, was so important in and of itself. But then two, I remember at one point, I think it was the head of innovation or something like that got up. And he said, OK, let's have a conversation now about what are the repercussions that we might not think about. Who are the people? I'm sure he said consumers, though. Who are the people at the end of the day that maybe we haven't thought about and how this might impact them? And people got up. And I remember somebody said, I grew up in a household, and we did not have laptops. I would not have access to the solutions that you are talking about. And I still know that that's the case in the neighborhood that I grew up in. And there was another person that got up and said, you know, I'm being candid. I'm an older person. And a lot of this is not second nature to me. Like you're talking about it, like everybody can just sign in and do this. And for me, that is not the case. And it was such a good example of thinking through like, OK, the real people at the end of the day who are going to use this, what was supposed to be a solution for their brand, you know? So again, just centering the person and their real human needs and desires. Not that everybody in the room has to be a representative of their demographic group constantly, but I think that showcases how you can bake it into a brand and the decisions that you make. We're literally, from a very easy level, it's as simple as let's take 15 minutes and think through the repercussions of this for the actual humans that are going to eat this or come into our restaurant. Maeve Webster (40:25) Yeah, I mean, I think it's also about being genuine, right? It is making sure that whatever language you use, however you communicate is really genuine. mean, don't, and I'm not going to call out the video. think we're all thinking of in the food industry where clearly it was poorly thought out. It was ingenuine. The way it was communicated, the language that they used was not human centric. Mike Kostyo (40:30) Yes. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (40:53) and just everything about it was in genuine. And that's why it failed. It didn't fail because of who was doing it, what it looked like. Even the language, I think people could have gotten past it if more of the message was genuine. The problem was it was not. And that sank that video and resulted in some genuine videos actually being. But you really just have to think. Mike Kostyo (40:55) Mm-hmm Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah Maeve Webster (41:18) Why are we doing this? You know, are we doing it simply because we feel like we have to? If that's the first thing that comes to your mind, don't do it. If you feel like you have to do it, don't do it because that is going to backfire. And frankly, you don't need to do 90 percent of what you think you need to do. If you feel like you're being pushed into it because your competitors are doing it or because you keep being told that Gen Z wants this and whoever wants that. Don't do it. I mean, make sure that you're doing it because it's like this is is in, Mike Kostyo (41:19) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (41:46) core part of our brand, our personality, the voice we want, the identity we want, we want people to really know who we are at no point should you think we have to do this. Mike Kostyo (41:47) Mm-hmm Although, if you need to make the decision that, yes, we should think of other people that buy our product as human beings and you don't believe that genuinely, maybe you should get out of the food industry. Yeah. But to our point, that unfortunately is, do we think a lot of the brands out there are doing it again nefariously? No, but it's so easy. There's so many things that we've talked about from a language perspective. Maeve Webster (42:05) Don't. Something might have gone horribly wrong in your filter. Mike Kostyo (42:23) I think all the time of the gendering of foods and like what's okay to eat and what's not okay to eat. And, we both love cocktails. We both love that side of the industry, but if you're going to put a Cosmo on the menu, what's the language that you're going to use? It's going to be when you get together with your girlfriends and, you know, the flirty girl Cosmopolitan that we've developed. And then when you put that whiskey drink on the menu, you know, the smoky whiskey that we've, it's so gendered immediately. And it says who has permission to buy this, who feels comfortable buying this item. You give that great example of the one hotel. I think they were genuinely trying to develop a solution. Was it the one in Washington, DC, the very women-centric hotel that they had developed? Maeve Webster (43:08) Okay, so I'm not sure that I would say they genuinely, I think this was actually in doubt, right? Mike Kostyo (43:09) Hahaha. Well, you're right. That was the one that it was a bunch of finance people that, yes, you're right. Yes, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maeve Webster (43:18) Guys, was a bunch of, I think it was in Dallas, right? And the entire thing was pink. It was Barbie pink. It was marshmallow, unicorn, butterfly, fluffy stuff everywhere. And there were no women in any level of executive decision-making at all. So were they trying to create a solution? I don't know, genuinely for them, right? Genuinely for them. Mike Kostyo (43:29) haha Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Now I remember. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (43:43) to give potentially to give them the benefit of that perhaps. And also I will say, because I had somebody give me grief for this after kind of laughing about this, I am not a pink butterfly unicorn kind of gal. That's just not me, right? That's fine. There are women who love that and God bless them. And I hope they enjoy that restaurant. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. That's absolutely fine. I was laughing about the fact that it was created by men and they thought that women were pink. Mike Kostyo (43:46) Maybe, Mm. Mm Yeah. Not that. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Maeve Webster (44:13) Barbie people. The other Mike Kostyo (44:14) Yes, Maeve Webster (44:15) restaurant in DC or the other hotel in DC, however, was entirely created by women for women. And the really interesting thing about that, there wasn't a single pink anything. It was all deep colors. It was essentially the opposite of what a stereotypical woman centered thing would be. But it was in fact created entirely by women to be. Mike Kostyo (44:19) That's the way. Yes, that did a great job. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (44:41) it was actually women from developing nations, I believe, if I'm remembering this correctly, who created these hotels for areas where women being alone was not the norm and was not very safe. And they had then created this brand that obviously is expanding and going into developed markets and simply as an option for women travelers. But I thought it was very interesting when you put the two side by side, the one that was actually created entirely by women was unrecognizable as a ⁓ Mike Kostyo (44:45) Mmm. Maeve Webster (45:08) woman hotel. Mike Kostyo (45:10) part of the lesson there is, who is in that room when the decision is made? Who are the voids? Exactly like I just talked about in that tech example. I think the word ethnic. we've been having this conversation for years. Do we use the term ethnic? Should grocery stores have ethnic aisles? We have databases of ethnic restaurants across the country. And part of it is that, some of these restaurants and some of these foods and some of these ingredients that we talk about, the people who eat those foods and grew up on those foods and cook those foods were not in the conversation. And so it was a very other thing, like Filipino cuisine is now the big new thing in America. Well, that's true for everybody except Filipino people. You know, we have Filipino Americans in the country and for If you're a Filipino-American, it's going to be the hot new thing for you. You better get excited. You feel excluded. You feel like, I'm clearly the other in this situation. I think thinking through that idea of who feels like the outsider, who feels disrespected when you use any of this language? Superfood is a big one. We found this ingredient in the jungles now it's a superfood. quinoa is a great example. you discovered this thing that now everybody needs to eat because it's healthy. You know, I mean, the number of times that we don't think through the repercussions of how the language and just overall how we position things, it happens too often. Maeve Webster (46:18) ⁓ Well, so this is probably a podcast for another time. But also what is the responsibility of the food industry, right? And you brought up quinoa. And it's fine that quinoa, it's great that people have, have, have beyond Peru have discovered what a great ingredient quinoa is. But the fact that it became a trend and it became a super food and suddenly everybody was throwing it in everything and on every menu, then the Peruvians Mike Kostyo (46:35) Yeah Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Maeve Webster (46:59) Quite literally could no longer act, they didn't have enough quinoa in their own country for their people who had been using this for, I don't know, thousands of years, right? Now they could no longer, what is the responsibility of the food industry, to your point, to think about the repercussions of jumping on a trend? There have been many trends that we could call out. Quinoa is just one of the kind of more obvious ones. Mike Kostyo (47:20) Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (47:22) That's probably, that's a separate discussion, but it's worth noting, however, and that whole idea of ethnic, I agree, I never use that term anymore. I just use global because it's the best way to describe it, you know, whatever. The other that you and I have talked about is exotic. Right? Because that is just so singularly from one perspective, although we just watched, is this thing on? You know, the movie with Will Arnett? Okay. Mike Kostyo (47:24) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Same. Mm-hmm. Oh, God, No. Yeah. Mm yeah, huh. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (47:52) So he just watches, it was actually a great movie, really enjoyed it. But his mother says to him at one point, I can't remember exactly the line, but something along the lines of, I've always loved the exotic. And that's why I your father and his father's Irish. You know, so it just goes to show, and that is a very specific perspective, right? I'm not sure how many people would say the Irish are exotic, though they're fabulous, obviously. Mike Kostyo (48:03) the Yeah. Maeve Webster (48:16) You know, just I think circling back to what we originally started with language, I think people just need to be more thoughtful on the language that we use. And I think we should be more careful now, largely because we have to be. And this is not, again, a political thing. It is more the shift in culture of wanting to be thought of as an important individual and being certainly more conscious of, to your point about the Filipino food, Mike Kostyo (48:24) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (48:44) being more conscious of these cultures that we are being inspired by and influenced by that I think more often than not we want to respect the fact that we find it so interesting and we want to celebrate it, but that can go awry. And how do we be more mindful of not allowing that to go awry? Mike Kostyo (49:04) the themes over and over, respect, genuineness, trusting the consumer, the person at the end of the day, it's going to be very tricky. It's going to be really, really difficult. Yes. Yeah, it will. But I mean, it's so important. Well, yeah, too, when you get it right, you and I have used multiple examples at the beginning of this podcast where you do feel seen, where, you know, somebody does. Maeve Webster (49:13) It is. It's going to take through the end of the year. Yeah. Mike Kostyo (49:26) talk to you like a real human being that is worthy of the dollar that you're spending in that venue. matters so much. So the corollary of all this is when you get it right, it matters. People see it. People really notice it. I used an example actually. on my Monday Sparks, which is on LinkedIn, every week we just do three creative new menu items, you marketing campaigns. And somebody had posted on TikTok that they were on Japan Airlines and they were watching a movie. And at the end of the movie, you can get a little code if you didn't finish the movie and put the code in on your next flight and continue from where you stop. And I think that's such a great example of, you know, yes, like you're as a brand, you're expected to solve for the big stuff. You know, if people are having Maeve Webster (49:51) Yes. Mike Kostyo (50:07) really horrible issues. If you are a food brand and everybody's getting sick, you better solve for that. But it's the little things that when you notice them and you solve for those issues that then the consumer, the person really feels taken care of. Because if you are looking at that tiny thing, you must be looking at every tiny thing. If you notice that at the end of the flight, it's Dang it, I had 15 minutes to go and I wish I could have just seen the end of that movie. I want a poor way to end that flight. And somebody saw that and was like, all we have to do is a little tech solution There are so many things that we could do that for. One of the examples that I used, and this comes back to language again, is Jeremiah Tower. So Chef Jeremiah Tower has a fantastic newsletter, everything he's learned about the industry through the years. And there's one that he has his industry pet peeves. And it was basically the pet peeves. that he used to learn how do I actually run a restaurant that is very customer centric. And one of them was when you walk into a restaurant and somebody goes, do you have a reservation? And if you don't have a reservation, you immediately feel like, no, don't. Do I need to? Am I not going to get in? And so he said, it's a terrible way to start. Even if you need to ask that at some point, there's probably a better way to ask it. But the first word should probably just be welcome in. We're so pleased to have you here. And so again, it's a little thing. It's a tiny, tiny thing that restaurants, again, when they're doing it, not being nefarious or evil. They're not doing it because they hate the customer at the end of the day. But it's those tiny changes that ultimately add up and at the end of the day make you feel like they got my back. That's a restaurant or that's a brand or that's a company that sees me and has my back at the end. Maeve Webster (51:47) So it's funny you should bring up that the reservation thing again, because here at the beginning of this podcast, we were talking about great experiences that we've had. And at one restaurant again, that Richard brought us to, which, well, we won't say just embarrassed. And it looked like a beautiful restaurant. It was packed. So good for them, right? They're busy, ⁓ certainly. But we walked in and said, do you have anything available for three for lunch? And he said, no. Mike Kostyo (51:50) Ha ha. No. That's it. Yeah, yeah. No. Maeve Webster (52:14) And he friendly, he was smiling. was semi-apologetic, right? But no, we don't. And I will say, speaking of language, it's not that he was rude. He certainly didn't say get out. And it didn't even feel like he meant for us to get out. But I think the problem was there was nothing after no. And so you sit there for a minute like, well, do we go? Is that it? Mike Kostyo (52:25) Yeah. ⁓ No, agreed, yes. Yes, yeah. Yeah, right? Yes. ⁓ Maeve Webster (52:41) What's the solution that he needs to provide us to tell us you have to leave? It's not worth staying or, you know, if you come back later, something to suggest that is the end of the transaction. Because we did stand there for a good couple of seconds thinking, like, what do we do here? And you don't want somebody to feel that level of embarrassment because then all of a sudden you're like, is everybody looking at us like today? Mike Kostyo (52:45) Yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes Yes. Yes, I feel like there's some simple solutions too. even when we think, that ideation or innovation session that we're talking about, if you even just begin that session with Here's the customer and everything that we've researched about them. We've talked to them. We've heard their concerns. And this is who it is at the end of the day. And this is who we're trying to solve for. To your point about the salad-eating moms on the one hand, yes, it does turn people into these demographics. On the other hand, it is a starting point. And you do have to make sense of people on a large scale just to create anything. But on the other hand is OK, how do we take it so they're not a caricature of a person and turn them into a real person? And then that trades every decision that we're making. mean, how often have we had conversations about pricing in the past year? And yet it never comes down to, people might be really hurting. People are really hurting, obviously. People, when they go into the supermarket and they love our brand and the price has risen 25 % and they can't Maeve Webster (53:46) Great. Mike Kostyo (54:09) buy that for their kid anymore, that's a painful decision that they're having. that is an element of humanizing the process that we can do fairly easily through language. Maeve Webster (54:13) Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's interesting you should bring that up. I saw something, gosh, now I can't remember where it was, but there was a report about deals, right? And what were people looking for now? To your point, there are plenty of people who are hurting to different levels. And actually, before I continue on that, one thing you and I constantly talk about is everything on a spectrum. And I think it's so easy to err on the side of the simplicity, right? This is simple. Mike Kostyo (54:29) Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (54:48) It's men or women. This is simple. It's Gen Z or Gen X. I think wanting the simple solution has led us down the wrong path in most cases at this point. And everything should be considered on a spectrum. Trends on a spectrum, people on a spectrum, because there is no one. All of those groups still only account for a very small share of the salad eating women out there, right? Mike Kostyo (55:15) I could not agree more. That's the whole idea of the mess hall is that it is not simple solutions. It is messy conversations for messy people. And I couldn't agree with you more. Absolutely. Maeve Webster (55:16) ⁓ Yeah, so I really would love for people to be stopped, stop trying to create four buckets, five buckets, whatever it ends up being. It is an idea that exists on a spectrum and what is that spectrum and how much of that spectrum are we trying to solve for or can we solve for or do we want to solve for? What was, right. So back to the research, right, about the deals. And one of the things that had virtual, I don't know, I think it was like Mike Kostyo (55:30) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Can we? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (55:54) 4%, 10%, really small share of consumers were saying that they want loyalty miles. And I know that this is totally apart from the language thing, but to your point about how are you creating the solution? How are you trying to communicate it? The whole idea of loyalty points or loyalty miles or whatever ends up being is so meaningless to people at this point because it has nothing to do with loyalty. It has nothing to do with an actual reward. I think everybody's learned that whatever those rewards are, Mike Kostyo (55:59) No. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (56:23) are meaningless compared to how much money you spent in order to get to those meager rewards that they have. Mike Kostyo (56:25) Mm-hmm. And they get worse every year. We've seen that in every single example, Maeve Webster (56:31) Exactly. So even that language, loyalty rewards or loyalty points or whatever it ends up being, stop using it because it's disingenuous, really, for the most part. There are some great loyalty programs and well done. But the reality is that for most people, they are, again, using words that are supposed to mean something and end up meaning the exact opposite for the vast majority of consumers. Mike Kostyo (56:35) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Sure. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (56:54) So are you really offering that? Are they actually rewards? Are you really trying to get loyalty or are you just trying to suck people in and trap them with these things? Because they know it. mean, people are not dumb for the most part. Mike Kostyo (56:57) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Exactly. When again, I mean, that comes down to language. your example of the UPS store that your mom went to is such a great example guy was, mean, sure, he's getting a paycheck at the end of the day. but he's not helping her because she's in a rewards program and she spent $5,000 over the course of the year. So she gets extra special service. I'm pretty sure that he probably does that for everybody, that it's just a part of who he is in the customer service that he delivers. isn't that a lesson for every single customer interaction? Everything that we just talked about, the terminologies that come up, trust and being genuine there really are, are some easy, easy decisions that you can make right off the bat. start every session where you're creating a new product or a new menu item and thinking through who the actual person is at the end of the day. Go through the language that you use. we're going to try to stop using consumers as much as possible. Can you do that? Can you stop calling your menu items a product? And can you start calling your menu items food that's the whole point of this is that language matters. So can you do an audit of the language that you use and how it impacts what you make and how at the end of the day, it may negatively or positively impact who your customer is? Maeve Webster (58:22) And I would say at this point, simplicity is far better than complexity. When it comes to language, when it comes to, like we were talking about loyalty programs, simplifying everything down. Don't try and get cute and complex and funny if you're not funny. Mike Kostyo (58:29) Mmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (58:40) Keep it simple because I think simplicity is a great deal more authentic more often than not. And it just keeps you from getting tripped up. The more complex you try and be, the more you try and fit yourself into a bucket, the more you try to respond to what you think you're supposed to be doing, what you feel like you're being forced to do, that's when you're going to get tripped off. Up 100%. Mike Kostyo (58:47) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I agree. I I think there's always this idea that if we just educate everybody, then, They'll know that we're doing a good thing. The average person sees 74 gigabytes of information on any given day, which is what the average educated person would have seen 500 years ago. We are inundated with a huge amount of information. And so the idea that we are going to educate everybody on the nuances of every ingredient and why we call it that and why it's called that on the back of a product is just not realistic. So to your point, we just got to use simple language that gets to the heart of the issue. That's partly what we talked about on our last podcast with Chef Anna Chilli is, Maeve Webster (59:14) Here! Mike Kostyo (59:38) artificial ingredients and natural ingredients and ultra processed foods and seed oils. At the end of the day, the thing that really is going to matter is if we just use simple language that people understand on the back of a product. I think that stands for so many things. Maeve Webster (59:52) Yep, no, I couldn't agree more. Mike Kostyo (59:53) All right, so we've solved another issue for the food industry. You're welcome. Maeve Webster (59:58) You're all welcome. But seriously, seriously, think about this language thing. The more I think about this, the more important I think this issue is for the industry to tackle. And we are really, I think at a precipice now with the industry, food service in particular, where I think consumers are quite honestly thinking about whether or not it's worth it. And I think unless we start really proving that it is. Mike Kostyo (1:00:09) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (1:00:28) I think we are in for some really tough times. So I think we need to start taking a lot of these, what seemed like minutiae, but I think very important. think we need to take them very seriously. Yep. Mike Kostyo (1:00:30) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No. It matters so much. We, I mean, we say it over and over. We are real people seeing and making food for other real people. That's all it should be at the end of the day. So we will see you next month. Maeve Webster (1:00:47) Thanks everyone.