WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.719 Matt: Victor Ramirez, welcome to the WP Minute. 00:00:02.599 --> 00:00:03.359 Victor: Good to be here. 00:00:03.630 --> 00:00:05.949 Matt: You're the first of a laboratory session. 00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:10.339 No, not a laboratory, a psychologist session of breaking down, you 00:00:10.339 --> 00:00:14.369 know, what are the challenges folks are facing headed into 2025? 00:00:14.669 --> 00:00:19.399 Obviously, we've got the big, 3, 000 pound gorilla in the room with WordPress Drama. 00:00:19.579 --> 00:00:24.729 We've got AI seeping into all angles of development and marketing people 00:00:24.729 --> 00:00:28.989 looking at this is going to replace us and we have the natural temperature of a 00:00:29.029 --> 00:00:33.539 competitive landscape with so many more, people coming online, building services, 00:00:33.539 --> 00:00:35.289 businesses, becoming freelancers. 00:00:35.289 --> 00:00:37.519 There's alternative content management systems. 00:00:38.319 --> 00:00:39.829 We want to talk about some of that stuff today. 00:00:39.829 --> 00:00:43.029 But last time, let's just introduce who you are and what you do. 00:00:43.109 --> 00:00:45.299 Last time you and I chatted was on a Twitter space. 00:00:46.189 --> 00:00:50.129 I looked at you as this guy who freelances in the enterprise space. 00:00:50.129 --> 00:00:53.079 Did I get that correct, or what do you do these days? 00:00:53.479 --> 00:00:54.609 Victor: I fell into freelance. 00:00:54.619 --> 00:00:57.349 So I've always had a day job and I sometimes forget to talk. 00:00:57.349 --> 00:00:59.409 I don't talk about my day jobs that much because. 00:00:59.849 --> 00:01:04.419 Unfortunately, the enterprise companies that I've worked for, they don't, they're 00:01:04.419 --> 00:01:05.989 not saying they don't value open source. 00:01:05.989 --> 00:01:07.359 They do take advantage of open source. 00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:09.269 They sometimes contribute to open source. 00:01:09.269 --> 00:01:13.469 They, you know, issues, bugs, et cetera, but it takes so much effort to get 00:01:13.469 --> 00:01:16.939 them to even sign a piece of paper to let me speak at a conference that it's 00:01:16.939 --> 00:01:18.459 just better that I do my own thing. 00:01:18.749 --> 00:01:21.699 I was previously at News Corp, Wall Street Journal, and I helped build 00:01:22.029 --> 00:01:23.434 the enterprise WordPress system. 00:01:23.634 --> 00:01:25.674 there with like five VIP agencies. 00:01:26.164 --> 00:01:29.164 After that I was at, the not worldwide, which is if you have 00:01:29.164 --> 00:01:30.814 anyone got married, what, weddingwire. 00:01:30.814 --> 00:01:31.304 com. 00:01:31.614 --> 00:01:36.324 Cassimiertos, hitched Mariajo it's like global organization. 00:01:36.654 --> 00:01:39.904 and then now I'm at Sotheby's, which is Sotheby's art if anyone has auctioned 00:01:39.904 --> 00:01:41.294 a pair of Michael Jordan sneakers. 00:01:41.674 --> 00:01:44.044 But throughout that I do freelance because. 00:01:44.749 --> 00:01:47.539 From the journal that got me WordPress work, people would hear about the 00:01:47.539 --> 00:01:50.719 work I was doing, and then I would be on Upwork or I'd be, you know, 00:01:50.719 --> 00:01:53.599 on LinkedIn and people would say, Hey, I need help with WordPress. 00:01:53.659 --> 00:01:56.209 And then from WordPress, that's actually how I got the job. 00:01:56.209 --> 00:01:56.779 At the Knot. 00:01:57.209 --> 00:02:01.439 at the Journal, I had to learn a lot about APIs and data architecture. 00:02:01.499 --> 00:02:06.149 And at The Knot Worldwide, we went from 160 websites to one unified architecture 00:02:06.269 --> 00:02:07.919 and that, and it was in analytics. 00:02:08.324 --> 00:02:12.194 And then at Sotheby's, that's what I do right now, where I work in enterprise 00:02:12.194 --> 00:02:15.924 analytics and it's our analytic systems across Sotheby's dot com is eight 00:02:15.924 --> 00:02:17.864 different applications in a website suit. 00:02:17.924 --> 00:02:18.784 That's what I like to joke. 00:02:19.024 --> 00:02:22.604 It's Python, it's Ruby, it's a mobile application, but we have 00:02:22.604 --> 00:02:25.114 to have a unified analytics architecture and that's what I manage. 00:02:25.674 --> 00:02:28.504 And so, you know, throughout the pandemic, at the beginning of the 00:02:28.514 --> 00:02:32.264 pandemic, I was like, everyone was laying everyone off in 2021. 00:02:32.294 --> 00:02:35.504 And then those people were coming to me and saying, Hey, A marketing 00:02:35.514 --> 00:02:38.234 team that used WordPress was like, we lost five engineers. 00:02:38.504 --> 00:02:41.654 Can you pick up and keep the site maintained for this event coming up? 00:02:41.974 --> 00:02:43.894 And that did really well in 2021. 00:02:43.944 --> 00:02:47.534 And then it kind of dried out and now I'm doing mostly data analytics stuff 00:02:48.004 --> 00:02:49.444 related to what I'm doing right now. 00:02:49.739 --> 00:02:52.329 Matt: Now, across the board, it was, that's a healthy 00:02:52.339 --> 00:02:54.209 set of logos on your resume. 00:02:54.519 --> 00:02:57.439 Across the board, was that, is that all WordPress? 00:02:57.439 --> 00:02:59.379 Like what you're doing with Sotheby's now, is it all WordPress? 00:02:59.379 --> 00:02:59.979 Or are you doing 00:02:59.994 --> 00:03:03.534 Victor: nothing is WordPress, nothing outside of freelancers, WordPress anymore. 00:03:03.534 --> 00:03:07.684 Like I, but WordPress is still my go to tool and that's what. 00:03:08.359 --> 00:03:08.649 Okay. 00:03:08.649 --> 00:03:12.349 So if I'm going to do a demo for the team, what drives me crazy is, and not to 00:03:12.349 --> 00:03:14.709 insult them, I'll get a react engineer. 00:03:15.169 --> 00:03:18.379 Who can, you know, code all these cool front end libraries, 00:03:18.379 --> 00:03:19.329 do all this great stuff. 00:03:19.649 --> 00:03:23.929 But when I try to explain to him how to install an NPM package that 00:03:23.929 --> 00:03:27.589 lets him use Google Tag Manager, they get so frustrated and they 00:03:27.589 --> 00:03:30.739 won't give me a staging environment because you know, I'm not there. 00:03:30.739 --> 00:03:32.009 I'm not the application engineer. 00:03:32.269 --> 00:03:35.219 I'm the analytics engineer, so I don't get a staging environment. 00:03:35.219 --> 00:03:37.459 That's unique to me because of resourcing issues. 00:03:37.739 --> 00:03:39.289 I don't get my own GitHub repo. 00:03:39.289 --> 00:03:40.339 I don't get my own branch. 00:03:40.339 --> 00:03:41.329 I don't get my own keys. 00:03:41.629 --> 00:03:45.309 So I will spin up a WordPress environment and I'll make a mock. 00:03:45.719 --> 00:03:50.289 Website of our own products using WooCommerce and I will install 00:03:50.289 --> 00:03:51.909 Google Tag Manager from WooCommerce. 00:03:51.929 --> 00:03:56.859 I'll install a CMP I'll install all the things the same that we would do in 00:03:56.889 --> 00:04:01.019 our enterprise organization and I demo with WordPress And so WordPress is kind 00:04:01.019 --> 00:04:05.239 of like my laboratory And so and then the same thing at the not worldwide we 00:04:05.239 --> 00:04:09.629 were using WordPress in some of our e commerce applications But as we move 00:04:09.629 --> 00:04:13.319 towards a monolithic architecture, it was migrating from WordPress 00:04:13.574 --> 00:04:15.004 Into the monolithic architecture. 00:04:15.004 --> 00:04:18.464 And that was driven by a big commerce API, but knowing WordPress in the end, 00:04:18.694 --> 00:04:22.424 I tell people, I kind of see, you know, I heard someone say when learning to 00:04:22.424 --> 00:04:24.404 code, it's like learning how to cook. 00:04:24.404 --> 00:04:28.884 Like whether a person knows how to fry an egg in a wok or fryer or egg in a. 00:04:29.274 --> 00:04:32.574 Cast iron skillet or do it on a flat grill, you know, how to cook 00:04:32.574 --> 00:04:35.014 an egg, you know, how to make the yolk the right way, whatever. 00:04:35.304 --> 00:04:38.364 So I see WordPress as like, Hey, it's a griddle and it's 00:04:38.364 --> 00:04:40.714 like, you know, and I, and then sometimes I have to cook at a walk. 00:04:40.714 --> 00:04:43.344 Sometimes I cook on a flat top, but WordPress really 00:04:43.344 --> 00:04:45.624 is my tried and true system. 00:04:45.664 --> 00:04:47.574 and I can teach a marketing person to use it. 00:04:47.574 --> 00:04:50.554 I can teach an engineer to use it for all its warts and whatever, you know. 00:04:51.214 --> 00:04:51.394 Matt: yeah. 00:04:51.394 --> 00:04:56.734 What do you think the biggest challenge is, and you can take it in 00:04:56.734 --> 00:05:00.004 two paths, either you personally as a freelancer who's, you know, maybe 00:05:00.004 --> 00:05:03.454 on the side, trying to find more WordPress work or get WordPress out 00:05:03.454 --> 00:05:05.734 there, or at your, full-time gig. 00:05:06.124 --> 00:05:08.674 Where are the biggest challenges you see headed into 2025 00:05:09.579 --> 00:05:12.889 Victor: For WordPress, I think that in my, I think the biggest problem for 00:05:12.889 --> 00:05:17.259 WordPress is going to be, and this was at News Corp, as much as I can say, the 00:05:17.259 --> 00:05:20.969 first thing I was hired for, I was not hired as a great engineer at News Corp. 00:05:20.989 --> 00:05:23.419 I was running the WPMYC meetup. 00:05:23.419 --> 00:05:25.799 You know, we had, working with Steve Bruner, with Sina 00:05:25.799 --> 00:05:27.179 Hughes and other people there. 00:05:27.604 --> 00:05:29.124 We had the meetup at Times Square. 00:05:29.124 --> 00:05:29.694 It was a great thing. 00:05:29.704 --> 00:05:30.694 That's what got me the job. 00:05:30.704 --> 00:05:32.854 Essentially, they were like, you're the only person based in New 00:05:32.854 --> 00:05:34.134 York who's willing to take a job. 00:05:34.454 --> 00:05:38.134 We need a wordpress subject matter expert, and I actually ran to someone the other 00:05:38.134 --> 00:05:41.954 day who worked for the Washington Post and had the same job, and I had to compare. 00:05:42.554 --> 00:05:47.184 Arc, which was owned by Amazon and used by the Washington Post, Chorus, which is 00:05:47.184 --> 00:05:50.605 now gone, by the way, good thing we didn't bet on that, owned by Vox, and WordPress 00:05:50.625 --> 00:05:54.195 won out at News Corp, and the reason WordPress won out is what I said was, 00:05:54.635 --> 00:05:58.075 we've got a great community, and I didn't even say we, I was look, if I have to drop 00:05:58.075 --> 00:06:02.025 WordPress and that's what keeps me my job, I understand because that's business and 00:06:02.025 --> 00:06:05.835 News Corp had to say, like, and I said, look, in the end, News Corp, WordPress is 00:06:05.835 --> 00:06:07.465 not owned by one individual organization. 00:06:07.835 --> 00:06:10.875 If any organization were to fall down, like if automatic were to 00:06:10.875 --> 00:06:14.615 leave and funny to say that now, if automatic were to quit, everyone 00:06:14.615 --> 00:06:16.175 else still has access to the repos. 00:06:16.215 --> 00:06:17.365 Everyone still has access to the org. 00:06:17.585 --> 00:06:18.885 We could fork and move on. 00:06:18.885 --> 00:06:20.165 If we don't like it, we just. 00:06:21.060 --> 00:06:23.610 Lock, freeze our version because we use GitHub version control. 00:06:23.820 --> 00:06:24.980 We freeze our version. 00:06:25.180 --> 00:06:27.290 We decide what plugins we want to maintain. 00:06:27.290 --> 00:06:30.130 We decide what plugins to replace with a third party API, et cetera. 00:06:30.400 --> 00:06:30.860 And we move on. 00:06:30.860 --> 00:06:34.360 But I think the issue now, if I were in that same job and I am having that now 00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:38.660 where I'm working with certain marketing teams and they're saying to me, and 00:06:38.660 --> 00:06:42.430 this is outside of Sotheby's, like I've worked with some enterprise, I'm one of 00:06:42.430 --> 00:06:44.550 the 1 percent of enterprise certified. 00:06:45.500 --> 00:06:48.210 WordPress developers on Upwork. 00:06:48.260 --> 00:06:50.780 So if you go on Upwork and you see my badge, I had an interview. 00:06:50.780 --> 00:06:51.730 I worked for Databricks. 00:06:51.960 --> 00:06:55.850 I actually built Databricks WordPress website, which is now a headless website. 00:06:56.290 --> 00:06:58.020 And it's funny cause Databricks was not big three years ago. 00:06:58.020 --> 00:06:59.370 Now they're huge in the AI space. 00:06:59.730 --> 00:07:00.220 and. 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:03.760 They're coming, not Databricks, but other companies are coming to me and 00:07:03.760 --> 00:07:07.610 saying, should we even bother investing in this WordPress website anymore? 00:07:07.610 --> 00:07:09.480 Should we just focus on moving to Webflow? 00:07:09.740 --> 00:07:13.610 And luckily where I sit, I'm like, listen, that's not really a conversation with me. 00:07:13.880 --> 00:07:15.390 We're going to use Google tag manager. 00:07:15.410 --> 00:07:18.890 So whether you use Webflow, a custom react application or WordPress, there's 00:07:18.890 --> 00:07:22.590 a module that lets us inject Google tag manager with Google analytics, 00:07:22.590 --> 00:07:23.890 Fathom, whatever you're using. 00:07:24.165 --> 00:07:27.775 So we're abstracting away our analytics and that's kind of what I sell. 00:07:27.905 --> 00:07:32.005 Like I'm very good at abstracting things out, but now I think more and 00:07:32.005 --> 00:07:37.075 more people are going to have to say, how do I abstract this particular need? 00:07:37.075 --> 00:07:40.725 If it's a, if it's a video website and you would never do video in the WordPress 00:07:41.155 --> 00:07:44.535 media manager, but now it's like, Hey, if I use something like Cloudinary, 00:07:44.915 --> 00:07:49.335 it's actually injecting the Cloudinary media manager into WordPress so that 00:07:49.335 --> 00:07:51.255 if we ever move away from WordPress. 00:07:52.505 --> 00:07:55.835 , it's, there's no lag in the user interface. 00:07:55.835 --> 00:07:57.455 It's just gonna be cloud nary, but in different, in, 00:07:57.725 --> 00:07:59.660 in craft cloud, near and sat. 00:07:59.985 --> 00:08:00.855 I dunno if I'm even saying that right. 00:08:00.855 --> 00:08:04.475 Static sta sta and I think that's how people are gonna have to think. 00:08:04.475 --> 00:08:09.515 And you can sell more, but it's not helping because people are saying, do I 00:08:09.515 --> 00:08:11.075 wanna spend any more money on WordPress? 00:08:11.075 --> 00:08:13.205 And I'm like, and that's like, that's with clients all the time. 00:08:13.365 --> 00:08:14.895 they always wanna change horses. 00:08:14.925 --> 00:08:17.025 And I'm like, listen, don't change horses while riding. 00:08:17.205 --> 00:08:19.155 Let's just continue on the GTM work. 00:08:19.720 --> 00:08:23.380 But you're not wrong to think that way, keep an eye on it, and I'm 00:08:23.380 --> 00:08:26.420 going to build it in such a way that you don't have to worry about it. 00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:29.500 We're going to make it so it's abstracted, but you should worry about it. 00:08:30.180 --> 00:08:32.830 Matt: I want to just take the conversation just, not really a 00:08:32.840 --> 00:08:34.120 fork in the road, but just a touch. 00:08:34.420 --> 00:08:35.630 you mentioned Upwork. 00:08:35.920 --> 00:08:39.460 I think of a guy like you, and no offense, I think of a guy like Like 00:08:39.460 --> 00:08:42.530 you that has all this enterprise experience like Upwork this people 00:08:42.530 --> 00:08:46.100 should just be knocking on this You should have a waiting list of people in 00:08:46.100 --> 00:08:53.350 his inbox is Upwork a true alternative for folks to find Freelance work. 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:54.430 I've always looked at those sites. 00:08:54.430 --> 00:08:57.150 It's there's there can't be a guy like Victor on Upwork That's just 00:08:57.150 --> 00:09:01.530 I just think of it as like smaller little gig type projects, but Upwork 00:09:01.560 --> 00:09:04.400 is good for you Can you help that break that down for the listener? 00:09:04.400 --> 00:09:07.690 Who's thinking I want to find work like Victor Maybe I should try Upwork 00:09:08.410 --> 00:09:11.210 Victor: Upwork is great if you can't let Upwork be your only thing. 00:09:11.220 --> 00:09:14.730 It's the same thing like, listen, the reason I, you know, joined the 00:09:14.730 --> 00:09:18.430 WordPress meetup was one, I was trying to learn, but it was about access, right? 00:09:18.430 --> 00:09:22.430 And so if people, if you go and you Google hire, Again, this 00:09:22.430 --> 00:09:23.610 is a marketing question, right? 00:09:23.610 --> 00:09:25.295 So it's like saying to yourself, like. 00:09:25.735 --> 00:09:30.105 If I were to run ads as a WordPress developer in New York city, I think 00:09:30.105 --> 00:09:34.195 it's 50 per click for an ad, a Google ad for WordPress developer. 00:09:34.225 --> 00:09:34.535 Right? 00:09:34.795 --> 00:09:36.805 So let's say globally, it's 20. 00:09:37.065 --> 00:09:41.585 You're competing against big agencies that have big dollars sales teams. 00:09:41.695 --> 00:09:42.725 Can you answer the phone? 00:09:42.725 --> 00:09:43.835 The minute someone clicks the thing? 00:09:43.835 --> 00:09:44.655 Can you make a call? 00:09:44.825 --> 00:09:46.065 Can you take an enterprise call? 00:09:46.305 --> 00:09:47.805 So I saw it as a channel. 00:09:47.805 --> 00:09:51.275 And what happened was I got lucky at the time in 2020. 00:09:52.285 --> 00:09:55.315 Upwork was looking to professionalize their services. 00:09:55.315 --> 00:09:58.925 So I was on there and I put that I had worked with the Wall Street Journal. 00:09:58.925 --> 00:10:02.065 I put that I had worked with like, you know, certain organizations. 00:10:02.355 --> 00:10:07.145 And then, when Databricks was looking for someone, Upwork was like, Hey, 00:10:07.155 --> 00:10:08.285 you have enterprise experience. 00:10:08.285 --> 00:10:09.595 We're going to put you in front of Databricks. 00:10:09.885 --> 00:10:11.065 So that's what got me to work. 00:10:11.375 --> 00:10:14.995 But I would say for most people, if you can be on Upwork, this is 00:10:14.995 --> 00:10:16.005 another way to think about it. 00:10:16.325 --> 00:10:18.100 If you're, and I don't know, cause SEO is. 00:10:18.280 --> 00:10:20.120 Customized by localization. 00:10:20.170 --> 00:10:25.340 AI is changing SEO now, but if someone goes and types in WordPress developer. 00:10:25.865 --> 00:10:26.265 St. 00:10:26.265 --> 00:10:27.965 Paul, Minnesota, right? 00:10:28.285 --> 00:10:32.905 Your Upwork profile is going to rank higher than a LinkedIn profile. 00:10:33.115 --> 00:10:37.045 It's going to rank higher than your own website because Upwork does 00:10:37.045 --> 00:10:39.185 its own SEO and it's prioritized. 00:10:39.415 --> 00:10:40.755 So I would argue it's good. 00:10:40.805 --> 00:10:42.775 and, but the thing is to not undercut yourself. 00:10:42.805 --> 00:10:44.285 You're not, and I wrote an article. 00:10:44.285 --> 00:10:47.015 If you check my website, you do is victorious Upwork. 00:10:47.215 --> 00:10:49.155 I wrote and talked about, you're don't think of yourself 00:10:49.155 --> 00:10:50.045 competing against people. 00:10:50.250 --> 00:10:54.010 You know, charging 5 an hour, or I think the limit's like 10 an hour over in 00:10:54.010 --> 00:10:58.270 India or Vietnam, think of yourself as like, they want to hire someone who has 00:10:58.280 --> 00:11:02.600 the cultural nuance and I would argue for like legal reasons, you know, like 00:11:02.610 --> 00:11:04.420 you have to hire within certain regions. 00:11:04.600 --> 00:11:07.330 and the other thing too, on Upwork is you're competing from, do 00:11:07.330 --> 00:11:08.580 you understand the U S market? 00:11:08.580 --> 00:11:09.600 And that was with Databricks. 00:11:09.870 --> 00:11:11.750 Databricks was running a U S based event. 00:11:12.040 --> 00:11:14.360 And what was happening was, you know, these, some of these companies, 00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:17.370 they go and hire a developer from abroad and that developer. 00:11:17.610 --> 00:11:21.450 Doesn't have the eye to see like, Hey, you're doing this RTL. 00:11:21.650 --> 00:11:23.350 This is a very confusing interface. 00:11:23.520 --> 00:11:26.140 This interface is actually for that side of the hemisphere. 00:11:26.350 --> 00:11:28.520 You want your sidebar on the left. 00:11:28.520 --> 00:11:31.000 And it's little things like that, that add up to a client. 00:11:31.210 --> 00:11:32.600 And so that's what I did well on Upwork. 00:11:32.620 --> 00:11:36.010 I'm getting back on there now because I kind of took a break from it because 00:11:36.020 --> 00:11:40.960 like what happened was, and this was another flux in the WordPress soup, so to 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:43.120 speak, Gutenberg and the editor, because. 00:11:43.445 --> 00:11:47.455 So many block editor tools are coming out with all these crazy block interface 00:11:47.455 --> 00:11:51.615 changes That I didn't know how to put my foot down with clients and say we're 00:11:51.615 --> 00:11:56.565 not doing that Now I can because of two things accessibility and analytics So 00:11:56.565 --> 00:12:00.255 now if a client wants all these woozhings all across the street like we can do 00:12:00.255 --> 00:12:02.575 that You're gonna lose hotspot tracking. 00:12:02.915 --> 00:12:04.725 You're gonna be not GDPR compliant. 00:12:04.725 --> 00:12:06.175 You're not gonna be accessible compliant. 00:12:06.465 --> 00:12:10.015 So We can do that visually, but you lose all this other stuff. 00:12:10.255 --> 00:12:12.405 And that's kind of where, again, you get the clients. 00:12:12.415 --> 00:12:14.675 It's really about you're going to kiss a hundred frogs. 00:12:14.675 --> 00:12:17.325 You might get one good client at Upwork, but it's just part of your 00:12:17.325 --> 00:12:18.785 regular marketing and sales cycle. 00:12:19.475 --> 00:12:23.505 Matt: Is Gutenberg as big a thorn in the side of WordPress, at least 00:12:23.695 --> 00:12:26.565 from your perspective, maybe in the enterprise market, as a lot 00:12:26.565 --> 00:12:27.535 of people make it out to be? 00:12:29.145 --> 00:12:32.185 Victor: So for anyone, I'm going to just like caveat in the beginning for 00:12:32.185 --> 00:12:36.725 anyone who's worked in enterprise, they know that marketing is a hundred 00:12:36.725 --> 00:12:38.135 percent detached from engineering. 00:12:39.165 --> 00:12:42.695 When I'm at news corporate, one of these big publishers. 00:12:43.450 --> 00:12:44.590 I have God mode. 00:12:44.660 --> 00:12:49.280 I can run all these packages that turn off the extra H one. 00:12:49.290 --> 00:12:50.860 So no one puts in two H ones. 00:12:50.860 --> 00:12:52.680 I can turn off these blocks. 00:12:52.680 --> 00:12:54.970 I can block people installing plugins, block people from doing this. 00:12:55.240 --> 00:12:59.050 So that is a completely different team when you're working in the engineering 00:12:59.050 --> 00:13:02.780 team, building the application that is used for content entry or, 00:13:02.940 --> 00:13:04.150 you know, e commerce, et cetera. 00:13:04.645 --> 00:13:08.355 When you're working with a small business or marketing, it is a huge thorn in the 00:13:08.355 --> 00:13:11.785 side because a lot of the times most of the clients you're getting are not 00:13:11.835 --> 00:13:13.745 actually engineering professional clients. 00:13:14.115 --> 00:13:19.035 They are clients who were sold blocks or, you know, whatever these, they were sold. 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:20.470 which I like some of these cadence. 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:21.110 They're pretty slick. 00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:21.790 I use cadence. 00:13:22.020 --> 00:13:25.000 I use 20 for my own websites, which I haven't updated a long time, but 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:28.140 I'm working on, I have three weeks off this coming benefit enterprise of 00:13:28.140 --> 00:13:31.190 three weeks off this coming month, to work and update my own websites and 00:13:31.190 --> 00:13:34.760 I'll use them, but I would hate for a client to have them because the client 00:13:34.760 --> 00:13:36.580 then it's not the client going to you. 00:13:36.580 --> 00:13:37.750 Hey, we want to implement this feature. 00:13:37.760 --> 00:13:41.730 It's the client saying, I broke my site by putting three different builders on it. 00:13:41.980 --> 00:13:43.330 Can you make it look like this? 00:13:44.330 --> 00:13:46.100 And that's the crux of Gutenberg. 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:49.360 Gutenberg is kind of sold as this Swiss army knife. 00:13:49.610 --> 00:13:50.180 And I don't listen. 00:13:50.180 --> 00:13:53.580 There's some great people out there in the Gutenberg space. 00:13:53.920 --> 00:13:57.100 I'm not going to name specific ones, but they're like, the web should be free. 00:13:57.110 --> 00:13:58.700 Let me design the way I want to design. 00:13:58.710 --> 00:13:59.430 Let it be free. 00:13:59.550 --> 00:14:01.330 I hate when people say that nothing should be free. 00:14:01.520 --> 00:14:05.070 You don't go to cars in a highway and say, let me be free on the road. 00:14:05.070 --> 00:14:07.140 Let me veer into traffic the way I want. 00:14:07.400 --> 00:14:10.620 No, this is a utilitarian system that should be. 00:14:10.995 --> 00:14:12.615 Composed in a particular way. 00:14:12.795 --> 00:14:16.215 So if you're someone who needs to run a business, I think Gutenberg 00:14:16.215 --> 00:14:18.225 is terrible because it's too much. 00:14:18.435 --> 00:14:20.025 It's like, just think about it as a highway. 00:14:20.025 --> 00:14:23.375 And that's like a lot of the Gutenberg people and I, Richard Tabor, he is, and 00:14:23.375 --> 00:14:25.445 I love Richie's on Rich, Rich's stuff. 00:14:25.805 --> 00:14:27.035 'cause he writes great stuff. 00:14:27.035 --> 00:14:29.495 He worked, I think he's still, I dunno if he's still automatic, he has some 00:14:29.495 --> 00:14:32.615 of the best stuff out there, but he's one of those, let's call it like very. 00:14:32.880 --> 00:14:35.590 Free person about Gutenberg like let people do what they want. 00:14:35.820 --> 00:14:39.450 No, that's we don't let them do with cars We don't let them do it with you 00:14:39.450 --> 00:14:43.160 know in the United States with guns and maybe we do I don't know But you 00:14:43.190 --> 00:14:46.620 got to control things and so that's where I think Gutenberg if you have the 00:14:46.620 --> 00:14:50.930 controls is beautiful But if you just let Gutenberg be free if you do free range 00:14:50.950 --> 00:14:52.310 Gutenberg, you're running for trouble. 00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:55.890 Matt: Some of that WordPress chaos of like, what is this thing? 00:14:55.900 --> 00:14:56.650 How do I use it? 00:14:56.660 --> 00:14:59.920 Who should be using it is part of the success of WordPress, right? 00:14:59.920 --> 00:15:02.780 Because anyone can grab it, start doing things, but then obviously the 00:15:02.780 --> 00:15:05.860 particular challenge is if you could do anything and you run into these issues 00:15:06.220 --> 00:15:11.460 that, that you just mentioned, what direction should the core team take it? 00:15:11.510 --> 00:15:14.320 Should they make it for the end user or should they make 00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:15.640 it for the web professional? 00:15:16.260 --> 00:15:21.360 Victor: I mean I mean In the end, how are you benefiting an end user 00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:22.900 by allowing 2h ones by default? 00:15:24.585 --> 00:15:31.185 In the end, how are you benefiting, how are you benefiting, a user by 00:15:31.225 --> 00:15:34.305 letting them put the header below? 00:15:34.325 --> 00:15:38.395 Like, and when I say the header, I mean like the HTML element of header on the 00:15:38.395 --> 00:15:40.605 footer, why are we letting them do that? 00:15:41.055 --> 00:15:42.125 How are we benefiting them? 00:15:42.395 --> 00:15:45.835 And I think that's the thing you get the free range WordPress people who are 00:15:45.835 --> 00:15:48.945 like, well, maybe I want to, because in the end you get, and you know, 00:15:48.955 --> 00:15:50.355 engineers have had this conversation. 00:15:50.365 --> 00:15:51.345 You have a lot of engineers. 00:15:51.625 --> 00:15:53.435 In PHP space, you say it as well. 00:15:53.665 --> 00:15:57.905 They're like best practices and design patterns were just thought up by some guy. 00:15:58.820 --> 00:16:03.020 Yes, you're right, but they've been adopted by the world and the internet 00:16:03.040 --> 00:16:04.610 is no longer a free range place. 00:16:04.820 --> 00:16:09.980 It is controlled by the walled gardens of SEO and Facebook and Google and 00:16:09.980 --> 00:16:11.080 Bing and all these other things. 00:16:11.340 --> 00:16:14.710 So in reality, we're no longer making free range websites. 00:16:14.980 --> 00:16:17.600 We're making a website that has to fit into an ecosystem. 00:16:17.610 --> 00:16:20.580 So I think we should make core. 00:16:21.075 --> 00:16:24.845 Build the best tools for end users to fit into the ecosystem. 00:16:25.145 --> 00:16:28.225 And if you're letting people have multiple H ones and you're letting people 00:16:28.225 --> 00:16:31.795 put the header and the footer in the header, you're not doing them any favors. 00:16:35.090 --> 00:16:36.000 Matt: Is SEO dead? 00:16:37.715 --> 00:16:40.265 Victor: SEO is never dead and SEO, I even hate the word because 00:16:40.265 --> 00:16:42.565 it's semantic internet in the end. 00:16:42.765 --> 00:16:45.845 Like, listen, I build like a lot of internal tools at our organizations 00:16:46.085 --> 00:16:48.515 and those internal tools might be something like, you know, we have, 00:16:48.545 --> 00:16:49.875 at Sotheby's we have auctions, right? 00:16:49.875 --> 00:16:53.215 And so those auctions, they have to be managed, they have to be searched 00:16:53.215 --> 00:16:54.505 for, they have to be cataloged. 00:16:55.145 --> 00:16:56.825 We're doing SEO, right? 00:16:56.825 --> 00:16:59.205 Because we're like, how do I look up an auction? 00:16:59.215 --> 00:17:00.765 How do I look up a product? 00:17:00.765 --> 00:17:01.515 How do I look up an item? 00:17:01.545 --> 00:17:03.595 How do I look at whatever that's SEO. 00:17:03.855 --> 00:17:11.215 So as long as you're, but I think the SEO of 10 ways to use WordPress and one 00:17:11.215 --> 00:17:15.705 you never thought of, I hope that dies because that is the frustrating thing. 00:17:15.705 --> 00:17:21.315 When I'm someone like, I just want to Google, Gutenberg, disable, 2H1s. 00:17:21.315 --> 00:17:22.455 I'm going to stick with that one to keep it simple. 00:17:22.655 --> 00:17:23.725 Disable 2H1s. 00:17:23.755 --> 00:17:26.765 It's like 10 things you must clean up in your Gutenberg editor. 00:17:26.965 --> 00:17:27.465 10 things. 00:17:27.475 --> 00:17:29.115 It's like, and it's, that drives me nuts. 00:17:29.115 --> 00:17:32.275 Whereas now I can go to chat GPT or, you know, in any of these systems 00:17:32.275 --> 00:17:34.505 or, you know, I can use a download. 00:17:34.545 --> 00:17:38.405 I actually use a dash, which is a local, downloads the WordPress codecs. 00:17:38.435 --> 00:17:42.145 I use dash with my own LLM and I connect anthropic to dash and I use, 00:17:42.185 --> 00:17:43.785 and I type in a command and I type in. 00:17:44.095 --> 00:17:46.225 Remove H1 and it generates it automatically. 00:17:46.225 --> 00:17:47.905 And now I don't use Google anymore for that reason. 00:17:48.085 --> 00:17:49.455 I have my own local internet. 00:17:49.465 --> 00:17:54.025 And so, that is hugely beneficial, but SEO is not dead because, and again, I think 00:17:54.025 --> 00:17:55.685 it's that also selling it in that way. 00:17:55.685 --> 00:17:58.495 Like I sell like a lot of user portals where like we'll have a client 00:17:58.515 --> 00:18:01.275 and they'll have like an internal user portal and I'm like, Hey. 00:18:01.710 --> 00:18:05.890 They're like, Oh, why can't my subscribers find the course they're looking for 00:18:06.220 --> 00:18:09.930 because you didn't add the proper metadata to all of your videos and that metadata 00:18:10.140 --> 00:18:13.930 you need to use search WP or relevancy and we're going to make it now and we're going 00:18:13.930 --> 00:18:18.280 to reduce the churn of the subscribers to your user site and that's, you know, and 00:18:18.280 --> 00:18:23.855 that's something that is still SEO, but it's not the, you know, Air, you know, SEO 00:18:23.865 --> 00:18:25.945 that marketers are doing to rank websites. 00:18:25.965 --> 00:18:31.855 It still is semantic usage cases, use cases for AI LMS, or, you know, bots. 00:18:32.540 --> 00:18:34.710 Matt: I bring that up, one, because you brought it up, but second, 00:18:35.040 --> 00:18:37.500 I think a lot of folks, I think you were kind of hinting at this. 00:18:37.500 --> 00:18:42.440 I think another reason for the adoption of WordPress, over any proprietary hosting. 00:18:42.835 --> 00:18:45.945 CMS, Wix, Squarespace, Webflow. 00:18:46.145 --> 00:18:50.055 I think a lot of it is particularly like we can own this experience, not because 00:18:50.055 --> 00:18:55.255 of the freedom of it, but because we have particular SEO, strategies in place and 00:18:55.255 --> 00:18:57.225 WordPress allows us to do these things. 00:18:57.225 --> 00:18:58.875 At least that's the way that I've always perceived it. 00:18:58.885 --> 00:19:03.075 So I've seen a lot of people select WordPress because They can control 00:19:03.075 --> 00:19:05.765 the slug, the server side of things. 00:19:05.765 --> 00:19:08.805 They have Yoast SEO and all these other various plugins. 00:19:08.805 --> 00:19:14.485 And for, you know, a little bit of core WordPress has that essence of SEO in it. 00:19:14.675 --> 00:19:19.405 And I'm really curious on how the SEO market shifts to how that 00:19:19.415 --> 00:19:23.535 impacts the adoption of WordPress, at least for a certain silo of 00:19:23.545 --> 00:19:26.625 user, you know, 2025 and the future. 00:19:26.935 --> 00:19:29.615 Yeah, so that's always something that I'm always thinking of is like what that 00:19:29.645 --> 00:19:34.125 world of SEO impact has on WordPress as a publishing platform No direct 00:19:34.125 --> 00:19:35.345 question, but I don't know if you have a 00:19:35.615 --> 00:19:37.025 Victor: no, I still think that's going to be important. 00:19:37.035 --> 00:19:40.635 So I just, my partner is a artist, a very accomplished artist. 00:19:40.945 --> 00:19:43.445 And you know, some of her work, she's gotten 3d scan. 00:19:43.455 --> 00:19:44.485 She's gotten it scanned. 00:19:44.495 --> 00:19:46.795 Like, you know, she does these giant eight by 10 paintings. 00:19:47.080 --> 00:19:51.040 and once they're auctioned off and once they're sold to the larger market, she'll 00:19:51.040 --> 00:19:53.200 never see it again, but I'm helping her. 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:55.920 And it's funny because she was like, couldn't I use, I don't know. 00:19:56.200 --> 00:19:56.870 What was it called? 00:19:57.790 --> 00:20:01.060 She brought up an old, on Mac, that, you know, there used to be these 00:20:01.060 --> 00:20:03.440 database systems that you could have in your computer or like, what's the 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:05.120 thing key was something in Microsoft. 00:20:05.120 --> 00:20:07.470 There used to be these kind of one note or like these things 00:20:07.470 --> 00:20:08.940 where you store a database. 00:20:08.940 --> 00:20:09.160 Right. 00:20:09.430 --> 00:20:09.740 But what I 00:20:09.875 --> 00:20:10.915 Matt: access database for 00:20:11.065 --> 00:20:11.445 Victor: Access. 00:20:11.445 --> 00:20:11.735 That's it. 00:20:11.745 --> 00:20:12.225 Access. 00:20:12.225 --> 00:20:12.465 Right. 00:20:12.595 --> 00:20:12.825 And I 00:20:12.825 --> 00:20:15.695 Matt: I Am I used to make a lot of money as a young freelancer 00:20:15.895 --> 00:20:17.145 selling access database 00:20:17.360 --> 00:20:19.700 Victor: But what I said to her was, I was like, the benefit of 00:20:19.700 --> 00:20:21.020 using WordPress for your website. 00:20:21.050 --> 00:20:22.730 'cause even she's not, she's very internet. 00:20:22.730 --> 00:20:23.720 She's an internet person. 00:20:23.810 --> 00:20:28.280 And she literally was like, Hey, like let's, do we wanna use WordPress? 00:20:28.280 --> 00:20:29.870 I said, listen, the benefit of WordPress is this. 00:20:30.230 --> 00:20:32.531 Even if WordPress were to get and her version, 'cause we're. 00:20:33.285 --> 00:20:36.665 We're creating our custom post type of artwork and that artwork, we were 00:20:36.665 --> 00:20:39.595 able to add all this metadata, the dates, the characters in the art, 00:20:39.615 --> 00:20:44.175 the type of painting, the type of a medium, the colors, all these things. 00:20:44.325 --> 00:20:46.815 And of course we use a little AI to go and read the colors from the 00:20:46.815 --> 00:20:47.965 painting to auto fill the metadata. 00:20:48.515 --> 00:20:49.335 That was pretty neat. 00:20:49.595 --> 00:20:50.115 and. 00:20:50.260 --> 00:20:53.900 And that benefited her because if all of a sudden she were to move away from 00:20:53.900 --> 00:20:57.990 WordPress, she could put it into a digital asset management system like Cloudinary. 00:20:58.280 --> 00:21:01.840 But now also what I told her was you adding all this rich metadata 00:21:01.840 --> 00:21:05.640 means that now if anyone searches for your artwork or your images, they're 00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:06.800 gonna be able to find it easier. 00:21:07.070 --> 00:21:10.760 And when I was, cause I did go and look at other things and 00:21:10.760 --> 00:21:12.010 I was like, well, she can't. 00:21:12.515 --> 00:21:15.295 I would have to do two things at once, because again, I'm building a digital 00:21:15.315 --> 00:21:18.795 asset management system using WordPress for her art, and I'm also building 00:21:18.795 --> 00:21:20.505 her a website so her art can be found. 00:21:20.835 --> 00:21:21.965 Well, and she doesn't need to be found. 00:21:21.975 --> 00:21:24.415 Her art is at the level where it's sold by auctioneers, etc. 00:21:24.625 --> 00:21:26.945 But just, you know, for her friends to go and find art or for like 00:21:26.945 --> 00:21:28.125 her to network with other artists. 00:21:28.505 --> 00:21:31.495 But I was saying to her, like, I would have to maintain two systems. 00:21:31.505 --> 00:21:32.775 I would have to go and build. 00:21:33.190 --> 00:21:38.310 A system that stores this data and then I have to build a three systems, a connector 00:21:38.530 --> 00:21:42.500 to your CMS, whether it be Webflow, whatever, and Webflow isn't easy to do it. 00:21:42.500 --> 00:21:43.840 Squarespace is not easy to do it. 00:21:44.070 --> 00:21:45.070 Nothing else is easy. 00:21:45.070 --> 00:21:47.830 So in the end, WordPress has the ubiquity, and that's one of the 00:21:47.830 --> 00:21:51.160 things WordPress still does have the ubiquity of throw rock in Brooklyn. 00:21:51.160 --> 00:21:52.560 You're gonna find a librarian. 00:21:52.905 --> 00:21:57.085 A editor, or a kid who was in a rock band who's used it before. 00:21:57.225 --> 00:21:57.575 Right. 00:21:57.785 --> 00:22:01.635 And so I think the ubiquity of the interface of WordPress still is great. 00:22:01.855 --> 00:22:06.275 because it's a lot of learning curve to learn, to use a lot of other systems. 00:22:06.275 --> 00:22:08.825 And that's why I think WordPress still shines in from an SEO perspective. 00:22:08.845 --> 00:22:09.585 Think of it that way. 00:22:09.975 --> 00:22:14.835 These SEO tools, if I were working in the SEO space and I was working with a 00:22:14.835 --> 00:22:19.455 publisher, I would say, look, all the work that you do updating this content. 00:22:19.670 --> 00:22:23.760 And getting really rich metadata using something like a Yoast SE or Rank Math, 00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:30.410 that metadata is going to then make your API richer when you're doing your own 00:22:30.450 --> 00:22:36.770 custom LLM and serving that as a RAG, which Retrieval Access Generative System. 00:22:37.015 --> 00:22:39.645 because in the end, rags, they're not as smart as everyone thinks. 00:22:39.645 --> 00:22:40.475 They need to be trained. 00:22:40.495 --> 00:22:41.215 They need the data. 00:22:41.405 --> 00:22:44.304 The better that the data is, met, you know, the metadata is the 00:22:44.305 --> 00:22:47.335 better that data can be chunked and then served into the LLM system. 00:22:47.555 --> 00:22:51.365 And that's where, again, that's SEO and SEO teams need to get better at 00:22:51.405 --> 00:22:53.605 spinning that and communicating that. 00:22:54.655 --> 00:22:58.205 Matt: LLM we're just dancing around AI 00:22:59.285 --> 00:22:59.785 Victor: Yeah. 00:22:59.795 --> 00:23:00.055 Sorry. 00:23:00.380 --> 00:23:03.400 Matt: I want to dive into that as one of our final topics here. 00:23:03.830 --> 00:23:06.490 I'm building things, Victor, with AI. 00:23:06.540 --> 00:23:10.030 I don't know a lick of job, well I do now, because I've been like 00:23:10.040 --> 00:23:14.500 seeping myself in it, but prior to, never been able to build a React app 00:23:14.900 --> 00:23:16.940 stand alone with my own feature set. 00:23:16.940 --> 00:23:18.570 Never could even dream of that. 00:23:18.570 --> 00:23:20.590 Now I'm doing it in minutes. 00:23:20.850 --> 00:23:26.110 What is the impact you see on AI augmenting or you know, taking 00:23:26.110 --> 00:23:29.004 away from, the freelancer out there trying to build WordPress websites. 00:23:29.955 --> 00:23:34.165 Victor: I think anyone who did anything that was repetitive action is cooked. 00:23:34.545 --> 00:23:37.645 So like it, but listen, they were getting cooked before. 00:23:37.745 --> 00:23:42.265 LLMs, because if you were the person who all you did was compose, I will compose 00:23:42.275 --> 00:23:44.795 five semantic HTML5 templates for you. 00:23:45.185 --> 00:23:49.525 Well, VS Code came around, you do hashtag bang, I think it's like you 00:23:49.525 --> 00:23:53.775 just do the bang symbol and tab, and it does a full semantic HTML5 doc type. 00:23:54.105 --> 00:23:58.615 If you installed a bootstrap library, you could type in xs. 00:23:58.665 --> 00:24:02.525 3 and it would give you three extra small columns and then 00:24:02.525 --> 00:24:03.475 you just fill it in, right? 00:24:03.935 --> 00:24:06.125 The LLM is only accelerating that. 00:24:06.125 --> 00:24:06.435 Right. 00:24:06.995 --> 00:24:08.565 So I think those people are cooked. 00:24:08.605 --> 00:24:13.115 People who generated, Hey, you know, I have clients, who do a video. 00:24:14.115 --> 00:24:17.305 Now all they do is make a YouTube video and think about the YouTube pipeline. 00:24:17.535 --> 00:24:18.755 They make a YouTube video. 00:24:19.095 --> 00:24:20.645 The transcription is AI. 00:24:20.675 --> 00:24:22.065 The description is AI. 00:24:22.195 --> 00:24:23.465 The thumbnail is AI. 00:24:23.985 --> 00:24:25.715 They now turn that into a blog post. 00:24:25.765 --> 00:24:26.535 That's AI. 00:24:26.775 --> 00:24:28.535 that blog post has 10. 00:24:28.965 --> 00:24:31.334 Pull quotes that they could turn into 10 tweets. 00:24:31.335 --> 00:24:32.075 That's AI. 00:24:32.315 --> 00:24:35.175 They need to make 10 TikTok videos off of the video. 00:24:35.345 --> 00:24:37.065 That's AI They need to add captions. 00:24:37.105 --> 00:24:38.625 That's AI in the end. 00:24:38.635 --> 00:24:43.000 It's one person overseeing that AI pipeline But all those jobs have 00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:45.820 been deleted because there's no video editor going, finding clips. 00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:48.290 There's no video editor going and adding all the translation. 00:24:48.520 --> 00:24:51.380 There's no person listening and writing the transcription. 00:24:51.560 --> 00:24:54.970 I mean, you get better quality, but the quality, the difference between 00:24:54.970 --> 00:24:59.870 95 percent accuracy versus 99 percent accuracy is not as great as just having 00:24:59.870 --> 00:25:01.360 someone go and QA it for an hour. 00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:02.850 You have to kind of sit down and think about the cost. 00:25:03.190 --> 00:25:04.400 Those jobs are cooked. 00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:08.880 Whereas I think, and I, you know, in Upwork, the higher end jobs, they're 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:13.715 willing to pay more money because It's where they're saying like, Hey, 00:25:13.935 --> 00:25:18.105 we cooked up this application with a developer and got to the MVP with AI. 00:25:18.415 --> 00:25:19.555 Now we want to deploy it. 00:25:19.595 --> 00:25:21.345 We keep getting rejected from the app store. 00:25:21.345 --> 00:25:22.635 We keep getting rejected on this. 00:25:22.965 --> 00:25:27.245 Oh, by the way, our developer put the API keys in the GitHub repo because 00:25:27.695 --> 00:25:29.295 the AI didn't tell them not to. 00:25:29.295 --> 00:25:30.485 And so we got hacked. 00:25:30.625 --> 00:25:33.795 And I think that on the higher end, that's where the money's going to be. 00:25:33.795 --> 00:25:35.795 Cause it's going to be you as a developer. 00:25:36.790 --> 00:25:38.070 And I think it was like this guy, he's great. 00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:39.050 Santiago something. 00:25:39.050 --> 00:25:39.690 He's on Twitter. 00:25:39.940 --> 00:25:40.860 He's a Cuban guy. 00:25:40.870 --> 00:25:43.870 And you said, your job is not getting, and I disagree with him. 00:25:43.880 --> 00:25:44.840 Your job is taken by AI. 00:25:44.910 --> 00:25:47.620 If you're a video editor, everyone I know in video editing, they're 00:25:47.620 --> 00:25:48.550 like, they're doing terribly. 00:25:48.550 --> 00:25:51.770 And again, because all these AI tools are coming out, but he's talking 00:25:51.770 --> 00:25:54.610 to developers and he says, your job is not going to be taken by AI. 00:25:54.860 --> 00:25:57.720 Your job is going to be taken by the person who knows how to use AI. 00:25:58.040 --> 00:25:59.930 And that really is for someone like myself. 00:25:59.930 --> 00:26:00.360 Like you're right. 00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:02.150 Like I used to have to go and go, okay. 00:26:02.150 --> 00:26:02.219 Okay. 00:26:02.520 --> 00:26:03.790 I hadn't done a react application in a while. 00:26:03.790 --> 00:26:04.470 I'm like, let me go. 00:26:04.670 --> 00:26:04.970 Okay. 00:26:04.970 --> 00:26:09.050 I have to go get, create react app, go to the documentation, not anthropic. 00:26:09.510 --> 00:26:13.720 I need to create a basic react application that tells me this, it's going to go into 00:26:13.770 --> 00:26:15.730 this API, generate this, and then this. 00:26:16.100 --> 00:26:18.910 But then as a developer, I had to know, you know, it came back and 00:26:18.910 --> 00:26:23.420 I was like, you made that call, but you didn't ask for API key. 00:26:23.650 --> 00:26:24.650 Where are you getting this data? 00:26:24.650 --> 00:26:26.150 It's like, Oh, we use mock data. 00:26:26.150 --> 00:26:27.260 And I'm like, okay. 00:26:27.260 --> 00:26:27.690 So like. 00:26:28.395 --> 00:26:32.125 use the API key, use the API key, but in the API key failed, and I said, I'm 00:26:32.125 --> 00:26:34.105 running on a local host without SSH. 00:26:34.385 --> 00:26:35.265 It's not going to work. 00:26:35.275 --> 00:26:38.895 You need to use a fallback for the mock data so that when it falls back, 00:26:38.895 --> 00:26:42.005 it uses the mock data and it should display a warning at the top to say 00:26:42.015 --> 00:26:45.595 mock data being used so that I know that when I'm running the application, it's 00:26:45.595 --> 00:26:46.965 not and you have to know that stuff. 00:26:46.985 --> 00:26:49.645 If you're as a developer, if you've been working long enough. 00:26:49.940 --> 00:26:52.610 You know, those things like you're the one who has to think like that. 00:26:52.820 --> 00:26:55.370 So it's that's the high level developers are going to do really 00:26:55.370 --> 00:26:56.620 well with AI, in my opinion. 00:26:56.900 --> 00:27:00.080 But the low level ones, again, if you were doing anything that it was you 00:27:00.080 --> 00:27:03.700 just repeating yourself over and over again, that job is going to be gone soon. 00:27:04.370 --> 00:27:07.590 Matt: I've been building these little ad hoc react apps and the biggest thing 00:27:07.590 --> 00:27:10.940 that I've noticed the difference is I've tried a bunch of platforms as I, 00:27:10.950 --> 00:27:14.500 you know, force myself to learn this stuff kind of makes me feel like when I 00:27:14.500 --> 00:27:20.190 was learning like thesis and page lines and site origin from way back in page 00:27:20.190 --> 00:27:22.680 building days in WordPress when you're like, I don't even know what I'm doing. 00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:23.630 I'm just building these pages. 00:27:23.660 --> 00:27:25.600 I don't know what's happening on the front end. 00:27:25.820 --> 00:27:27.970 I'm just dragging and dropping in WordPress Allah. 00:27:28.040 --> 00:27:30.600 I don't know, 15, 18 years ago, whenever that was. 00:27:31.050 --> 00:27:35.140 so I'm building these little apps and what I have found is a new found 00:27:35.150 --> 00:27:37.310 respect, for this monolithic app. 00:27:37.320 --> 00:27:41.070 If I can call it that a monolithic WordPress app, because while I can 00:27:41.080 --> 00:27:43.590 build these little ad hoc things, every single one is different. 00:27:43.770 --> 00:27:47.390 The way that this AI is generating it, it's recommending. 00:27:47.730 --> 00:27:49.360 Database structure to me differently. 00:27:49.360 --> 00:27:51.570 It's recommending frameworks differently. 00:27:51.570 --> 00:27:53.700 It's recommending icons differently, right? 00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:57.020 Like, and what icons it's going to use to, to make these apps. 00:27:57.430 --> 00:28:01.030 What that has done to me is like, wow, I can build these things really quick, 00:28:01.210 --> 00:28:07.650 but there is a inconsistency across the board and a real heavy sustainability. 00:28:07.970 --> 00:28:11.360 factor like you were just saying there, you might lose these little 00:28:11.360 --> 00:28:15.250 tasks to AI, but there still needs to be this human oversight to make sure 00:28:15.250 --> 00:28:18.600 it's working correctly because, okay, great, I can build these little apps, 00:28:18.600 --> 00:28:20.900 but they're all different and they're all going to be maintained differently. 00:28:21.060 --> 00:28:24.050 Whereas that newfound respect to the monolithic app of WordPress 00:28:24.300 --> 00:28:26.220 to me is like, oh, I could. 00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:30.310 I could just use WordPress for my user management, for my database 00:28:30.310 --> 00:28:32.030 structure, for my posts and my pages. 00:28:32.290 --> 00:28:34.600 and I'll just use AI to augment that. 00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:37.890 Don't try to use AI to replace it because there's thousands 00:28:37.890 --> 00:28:39.480 of people overseeing WordPress. 00:28:39.870 --> 00:28:42.520 but use it and then build it with WordPress and then 00:28:42.570 --> 00:28:44.890 accelerate it potentially with AI. 00:28:45.070 --> 00:28:49.410 That's a thinking I have for the next few years, a couple of years, two to 00:28:49.410 --> 00:28:51.490 three years with AI and WordPress. 00:28:51.780 --> 00:28:52.450 because. 00:28:53.040 --> 00:28:55.670 Yeah, I mean, I can just see that as extending WordPress 00:28:55.670 --> 00:28:56.900 instead of replacing WordPress. 00:28:56.910 --> 00:28:58.880 That's my sort of perception of this 00:28:58.930 --> 00:29:01.680 Victor: I don't think AI can replace WordPress because the thing I originally 00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:06.630 said, which we were talking about, which was, Hey, we are going to be doing, are 00:29:06.630 --> 00:29:11.130 we using blocks or are we using, and I know Bloxy, are we using Bloxy, are we 00:29:11.130 --> 00:29:13.000 using, Cadence, are we using one of those? 00:29:13.170 --> 00:29:16.360 And a lot of the times clients don't even know if they're using Cadence. 00:29:16.420 --> 00:29:19.170 Like they bought the website originally from someone, then 00:29:19.170 --> 00:29:20.200 they're like, get this AI. 00:29:21.280 --> 00:29:24.840 WordPress builder and then the WordPress builder goes installs another page 00:29:24.840 --> 00:29:27.590 builder and then all of a sudden when they go install and this is I find it is 00:29:27.590 --> 00:29:31.190 why I like accessibility and analytics every single time it all of a sudden 00:29:31.190 --> 00:29:34.950 gets to the, AI and analytics, AI, the analytics and accessibility part, 00:29:35.220 --> 00:29:38.610 they go and install an accessibility plugin or an AI, an analytics plugin and 00:29:38.610 --> 00:29:39.770 they're like, why isn't it seeing that? 00:29:39.820 --> 00:29:44.140 Oh, because The analytics plugin can't tell whether you're using Bloxy or this 00:29:44.290 --> 00:29:46.950 and you have three page builders installed and one made the header and one made 00:29:46.950 --> 00:29:50.850 this and so when you tick the box in the analytics tool that says I use Bloxy. 00:29:51.615 --> 00:29:54.625 It's going to only write all the analytics for block C, but then all of a sudden 00:29:54.625 --> 00:29:57.855 you're using cadence for this and this, for that, then that's what AI does. 00:29:57.885 --> 00:30:00.905 Like you were saying before, like I had AI bringing in like three or four 00:30:00.995 --> 00:30:05.155 different libraries and I was like, Hey, please use this library instead because 00:30:05.185 --> 00:30:07.745 I'm building it for this application stack and I need to use the library. 00:30:07.965 --> 00:30:10.435 And then it tried to argue with me and it's like, well, this library is better. 00:30:10.435 --> 00:30:12.555 And I'm like, get out of junior developer. 00:30:12.555 --> 00:30:15.045 Like I don't like we're using this library, you know. 00:30:15.455 --> 00:30:18.765 And so, yeah, the AI, it backtalks sometimes and you got 00:30:18.765 --> 00:30:20.105 to like, you know, correct it. 00:30:20.385 --> 00:30:21.095 So, yeah. 00:30:21.220 --> 00:30:23.960 Matt: Ramirez, propping up WordPress in the enterprise and 00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:26.460 fighting the good battle of AI. 00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:27.400 Thanks for hanging out today. 00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:29.620 Where can folks find you on the web to say thanks? 00:30:30.525 --> 00:30:33.155 Victor: you can just, Victor Ramirez WordPress brings me up, 00:30:33.215 --> 00:30:34.955 all the, I have done my own SEO. 00:30:34.955 --> 00:30:37.145 Let me actually double check that and see if that still works, but if you 00:30:37.145 --> 00:30:39.775 type Victor Ramirez WordPress, you could, then you can find me on Twitter. 00:30:39.965 --> 00:30:40.805 I'm not really active. 00:30:40.845 --> 00:30:42.935 I don't know if anyone uses Facebook anymore, but yeah, 00:30:42.935 --> 00:30:43.965 you could find me on there. 00:30:44.145 --> 00:30:47.435 Victor Ramirez WordPress, my website's there, some YouTube videos, and my, 00:30:47.485 --> 00:30:48.935 my Twitter account is still there. 00:30:48.935 --> 00:30:49.815 I'm sticking with Twitter. 00:30:50.035 --> 00:30:52.455 you can go and find my Twitter if you type Victor Ramirez WordPress. 00:30:52.900 --> 00:30:53.480 Matt: Awesome stuff. 00:30:53.480 --> 00:30:55.680 That'll be in the show notes because, you know, humans still 00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:56.520 write the show notes here. 00:30:56.520 --> 00:30:56.760 It's TheWPMinute. 00:30:57.430 --> 00:30:58.380 com, TheWPMinute. 00:30:58.380 --> 00:31:00.530 com slash subscribe to stay connected. 00:31:00.530 --> 00:31:02.450 We'll see you in the next episode.