WEBVTT 00:00:02.850 --> 00:00:05.340 Matt Abrahams: Often the things we really want are on the other 00:00:05.340 --> 00:00:07.290 side of a difficult conversation. 00:00:07.680 --> 00:00:10.950 My name's Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:10.950 --> 00:00:12.600 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:12.900 --> 00:00:16.020 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:16.530 --> 00:00:19.160 Today I'm really looking forward to speaking with Jennifer Wynn. 00:00:19.160 --> 00:00:23.160 Jenn is a professor at NYU Stern School of Business, where she's 00:00:23.160 --> 00:00:26.700 taught a class on difficult conversations for nearly ten years. 00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:30.390 Previously she was the Director of Education at the Obama Foundation. 00:00:30.750 --> 00:00:35.070 Additionally, Jenn hosts The H.I. Note Podcast and runs a consultancy focused 00:00:35.070 --> 00:00:39.210 on organizational transformation, change leadership and repair. 00:00:39.900 --> 00:00:40.480 Welcome, Jenn. 00:00:40.500 --> 00:00:42.045 I'm really excited for our conversation. 00:00:42.045 --> 00:00:42.367 Thanks for being here. 00:00:43.365 --> 00:00:44.385 Jenn Wynn: Thanks for having me, Matt. 00:00:44.385 --> 00:00:47.805 I'm excited to be here with you and the listeners, which include 00:00:47.805 --> 00:00:49.214 my executive MBA students. 00:00:49.275 --> 00:00:50.504 Matt Abrahams: Yes, absolutely. 00:00:50.504 --> 00:00:51.345 Well, shall we get started? 00:00:51.464 --> 00:00:51.945 Jenn Wynn: Yes. 00:00:52.214 --> 00:00:55.995 Matt Abrahams: So you teach a course on difficult conversations, and I'm curious 00:00:55.995 --> 00:00:58.155 what makes conversations so difficult? 00:00:58.155 --> 00:01:01.155 Is it the topic, the emotions, the circumstances? 00:01:01.155 --> 00:01:02.565 Where's the difficulty come from? 00:01:02.775 --> 00:01:06.585 Jenn Wynn: I wanna say all of the above, but at the core it's the emotions. 00:01:06.645 --> 00:01:08.895 It's the emotional reactivity. 00:01:09.255 --> 00:01:13.850 So, a quick way to think about this, in my first class of the Difficult Conversations 00:01:13.850 --> 00:01:18.259 course that I teach, I ask folks to call out topics that are difficult for them to 00:01:18.259 --> 00:01:23.240 discuss, and while they're calling it out, I'm typing the list into the slide deck. 00:01:23.360 --> 00:01:28.370 And we very quickly, not only fill the page with topics, but then you come to 00:01:28.399 --> 00:01:33.300 see that what's really difficult for one person is not that difficult for someone 00:01:33.300 --> 00:01:36.390 else, and in fact, some people enjoy it. 00:01:36.630 --> 00:01:40.080 So a topic like negotiations will terrify someone. 00:01:40.080 --> 00:01:44.220 I don't wanna negotiate my salary or getting a promotion or a negotiating 00:01:44.220 --> 00:01:48.630 fees with a client, and someone else will say, oh, I love a good negotiation. 00:01:48.750 --> 00:01:50.639 Let me take your negotiation on for you. 00:01:50.639 --> 00:01:55.000 Or saying No when a team member or a direct report wants extra 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:59.740 resources, or a loved one asks you for help, and you've gotta say no. 00:01:59.740 --> 00:02:04.870 And it's so interesting because not only are people really unique, even 00:02:04.870 --> 00:02:10.229 idiosyncratic, it shows you that what makes a conversation difficult is much 00:02:10.229 --> 00:02:14.820 less the topic and much more the inner experience that each person is having. 00:02:15.060 --> 00:02:20.190 And so effective communicators, effective leaders know that they've gotta be 00:02:20.190 --> 00:02:23.700 self-aware of that inner experience that they're having in the moment. 00:02:23.700 --> 00:02:26.970 When I say inner experience, I mean what you're thinking and 00:02:26.970 --> 00:02:29.100 feeling, but not saying out loud. 00:02:29.459 --> 00:02:34.200 And what that makes you realize is, if I can be aware in the moment that 00:02:34.200 --> 00:02:36.149 I'm triggered, then I can pause. 00:02:36.495 --> 00:02:40.755 I can recenter, I can regulate my nervous system, and that way I'll 00:02:40.755 --> 00:02:42.704 be able to choose a better response. 00:02:43.065 --> 00:02:47.055 And I say to my students, your nervous system goes with you into 00:02:47.055 --> 00:02:49.305 every single difficult conversation. 00:02:49.515 --> 00:02:53.265 So if you can pause and regulate your nervous system, then you're 00:02:53.265 --> 00:02:56.954 gonna be a better version of yourself at the time when you most need to 00:02:56.954 --> 00:02:58.125 be the best version of yourself. 00:02:58.484 --> 00:03:03.885 So the implication of all of that is self-awareness and emotional intelligence 00:03:04.155 --> 00:03:09.109 are essential for leading difficult conversations to productive outcomes. 00:03:09.440 --> 00:03:12.679 Matt Abrahams: So we really have to reflect on our own experience 00:03:12.679 --> 00:03:16.279 before we can actually be present and engage in the conversation. 00:03:16.279 --> 00:03:19.820 And I think the point you made about difficult conversations 00:03:20.179 --> 00:03:24.230 aren't the same for everyone, and in fact, we need to appreciate that. 00:03:24.470 --> 00:03:28.549 So it's really appreciating your own experience and the emotions you're 00:03:28.549 --> 00:03:32.839 feeling and finding a way to get yourself grounded and be centered 00:03:32.839 --> 00:03:34.160 and prepared before you go in. 00:03:34.620 --> 00:03:39.465 Jenn Wynn: Yes, and open to hearing and understanding the other person's 00:03:39.465 --> 00:03:43.875 inner experience because if I happen to be the one who loves negotiations, 00:03:43.965 --> 00:03:47.204 but I'm sitting across from the person who's terrified by negotiations, 00:03:47.475 --> 00:03:50.385 I need to have the emotional intelligence to be aware of their 00:03:50.385 --> 00:03:52.155 inner state and help them manage that. 00:03:52.274 --> 00:03:58.245 And at the end of the day, the goal is for all members of the dialogue to move away 00:03:58.245 --> 00:04:01.215 from emotional reactivity towards choice. 00:04:01.600 --> 00:04:06.340 I wanna choose the better, more strategic path, not the reaction that 00:04:06.340 --> 00:04:08.170 came out of an emotional trigger. 00:04:08.470 --> 00:04:09.730 It's more choicefulness. 00:04:09.880 --> 00:04:13.570 Matt Abrahams: So it sounds to me like one of the key elements, or 00:04:13.570 --> 00:04:17.380 a couple of the key elements, of managing difficult conversations 00:04:17.380 --> 00:04:18.385 first starts with self-awareness. 00:04:19.529 --> 00:04:23.489 Being other aware and accepting doesn't mean agreeing, but accepting. 00:04:23.880 --> 00:04:27.450 And it sounds almost like there's an invitation involved where you're 00:04:27.450 --> 00:04:30.780 inviting the other person to share their inner experience so that you 00:04:30.780 --> 00:04:35.190 can meet them and then ultimately make choices in a choiceful way. 00:04:35.549 --> 00:04:41.820 Are there particular strategies or tactics people can use to help bring 00:04:41.909 --> 00:04:44.159 out that information in someone? 00:04:44.550 --> 00:04:45.150 Jenn Wynn: Yes. 00:04:45.420 --> 00:04:48.930 So we'll start with that self-awareness piece, since it is the foundation. 00:04:49.020 --> 00:04:52.230 I tell my students, if you only remember one framework from this 00:04:52.230 --> 00:04:57.690 entire course, please remember self-awareness, pause, reframe, okay? 00:04:57.690 --> 00:04:59.370 Self-awareness, pause, reframe. 00:04:59.550 --> 00:05:00.480 So what does that mean? 00:05:00.780 --> 00:05:07.200 In the moment am I aware of my physical cues, my cognitive and emotional 00:05:07.200 --> 00:05:11.755 cues that let me know i'm triggered, I'm heated up in this moment, right? 00:05:11.785 --> 00:05:15.685 So for me, I get a lump in my throat or like a tightness in my chest. 00:05:15.685 --> 00:05:17.965 Some people get, uh, butterflies in their stomach. 00:05:18.265 --> 00:05:19.915 I'm curious, what is it for you, Matt? 00:05:20.185 --> 00:05:22.555 Matt Abrahams: So I, I resonate totally with a tight chest. 00:05:22.555 --> 00:05:25.365 When I'm ready for battle or feel like battles coming I, 00:05:25.435 --> 00:05:26.425 my whole chest gets tight. 00:05:26.485 --> 00:05:27.115 Jenn Wynn: Yes. 00:05:27.205 --> 00:05:30.805 So each one of us think in advance, what's my tell sign, right? 00:05:30.985 --> 00:05:35.234 And once I know that, the moment I see it, I know I've gotta pause. 00:05:35.354 --> 00:05:36.705 And then here's the best thing. 00:05:36.705 --> 00:05:42.645 If I know my pause techniques, if I know what helps me metabolize my hormones, 00:05:42.645 --> 00:05:46.484 get that adrenaline out of my system, really regulate my nervous system, 00:05:46.695 --> 00:05:48.615 then I can be back to my centered self. 00:05:48.615 --> 00:05:53.865 So a go-to pause technique for me is to imagine myself with my best friend, Carla. 00:05:54.135 --> 00:05:58.305 Then I'm at ease, I'm centered, and that is our goal. 00:05:58.485 --> 00:06:01.905 That we lead these conversations to a productive outcome, both 00:06:01.905 --> 00:06:05.205 for the content, the matter at hand, and for the relationship. 00:06:05.414 --> 00:06:11.115 So that last step, reframe, is where I actually shift away from viewing 00:06:11.115 --> 00:06:15.435 this conversation as a threat to something I care about, and instead 00:06:15.435 --> 00:06:16.919 perceiving it as a learning opportunity. 00:06:17.539 --> 00:06:19.760 What good information can I get out of this? 00:06:19.909 --> 00:06:23.270 So self-awareness, pause, reframe is a framework I always 00:06:23.330 --> 00:06:24.620 ask my students to remember. 00:06:24.919 --> 00:06:28.280 Matt Abrahams: I really like the taking the time to check in with yourself. 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:31.260 Both how am I feeling emotionally but physically and use the 00:06:31.260 --> 00:06:33.210 physical as a trigger to help you. 00:06:33.390 --> 00:06:34.680 Pausing is wonderful. 00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:36.450 I love that you rely on a friend. 00:06:36.870 --> 00:06:38.740 I have a place I go to in my mind. 00:06:38.770 --> 00:06:43.410 There is a particular tree in Sydney, Australia that faces the Opera House and 00:06:43.410 --> 00:06:47.730 the Harbor Bridge, and when I get worked up, if I just envision that in what I 00:06:47.730 --> 00:06:52.290 felt like when I saw it, it's my place of zen that really helps calm me down. 00:06:52.535 --> 00:06:57.485 And then this notion of reframing from one of threat to one of learning, one 00:06:57.485 --> 00:06:59.285 of collaboration, one of invitation. 00:06:59.615 --> 00:07:03.365 One of my colleagues, Michele Gelfand, likes to say, mind your metaphors, and 00:07:03.365 --> 00:07:06.905 the metaphor you bring to the interaction helps determine how it's going to be. 00:07:06.905 --> 00:07:10.115 So if I see it as a learning opportunity, this difficult conversation 00:07:10.115 --> 00:07:12.565 is going to go very differently than if I see it as a battle. 00:07:12.705 --> 00:07:14.190 So I really appreciate that. 00:07:14.400 --> 00:07:16.740 Share with us some of the other tips you have, especially if 00:07:16.740 --> 00:07:19.530 there are particular barriers that get in the way to doing this. 00:07:19.710 --> 00:07:22.560 Jenn Wynn: Some of the most common barriers I see are not 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:24.300 having the conversation at all. 00:07:24.630 --> 00:07:26.520 I'd say a second one, not having a goal. 00:07:26.880 --> 00:07:29.490 And a third, I'd say not listening enough. 00:07:29.880 --> 00:07:34.530 Often when we don't have the conversation, it's because we assume it will go poorly, 00:07:34.650 --> 00:07:36.420 so we give up before we've even started. 00:07:36.750 --> 00:07:37.770 But here's the thing. 00:07:37.860 --> 00:07:41.190 Most things that we want in life are on the other side 00:07:41.190 --> 00:07:42.539 of a difficult conversation. 00:07:42.840 --> 00:07:45.299 Sometimes it's a difficult conversation with myself. 00:07:45.659 --> 00:07:49.995 Sometimes it's a difficult conversation with a loved one, a colleague, a boss. 00:07:50.235 --> 00:07:53.085 But a lot of those things that we really want and we've been longing 00:07:53.085 --> 00:07:56.145 for and haven't gotten yet, are gonna require us to get to the other 00:07:56.145 --> 00:07:57.525 side of a difficult conversation. 00:07:57.825 --> 00:08:03.164 So are you just going to give up on your biggest dreams in life because you weren't 00:08:03.164 --> 00:08:07.335 willing to take the time to step outta your comfort zone and practice a skill? 00:08:07.575 --> 00:08:08.354 Because that's the thing. 00:08:08.354 --> 00:08:09.164 You know this Matt. 00:08:09.164 --> 00:08:13.724 Communication is a set of skills, learnable, growable skills, and 00:08:14.085 --> 00:08:19.695 difficult communication is a set of hard, but worth it skills. 00:08:20.055 --> 00:08:23.985 Matt Abrahams: It is important to remember that these difficult conversations 00:08:24.495 --> 00:08:27.555 are one of many conversations that we will likely have with these 00:08:27.555 --> 00:08:29.295 people or in this environment. 00:08:29.295 --> 00:08:34.385 So we're not only trying to come to a mutually agreed to resolution, in 00:08:34.385 --> 00:08:37.114 the short term, for this situation, but we're setting ourselves up 00:08:37.174 --> 00:08:38.554 for the future, and the next one. 00:08:39.034 --> 00:08:42.694 You mentioned listening, and that's a skill that my wife is 00:08:42.694 --> 00:08:44.164 still encouraging me to work on. 00:08:44.314 --> 00:08:47.885 I'm curious, how do you help your students to be better listeners 00:08:47.915 --> 00:08:49.775 in these difficult conversations? 00:08:50.045 --> 00:08:50.945 Jenn Wynn: Yes. 00:08:51.215 --> 00:08:55.475 So sometimes the issue is not listening enough and sometimes it's 00:08:55.745 --> 00:08:58.235 not showing that we are listening. 00:08:58.385 --> 00:09:00.215 So those are two distinct skill sets. 00:09:00.305 --> 00:09:03.665 At the end of the day, I think about dialogue as the free flow of meaning. 00:09:03.845 --> 00:09:08.525 And so if I've done it well, effective dialogue grows the shared 00:09:08.525 --> 00:09:10.295 pool of understanding between us. 00:09:10.715 --> 00:09:14.255 I understand how you made meaning of a situation and you understand 00:09:14.255 --> 00:09:15.995 how I made meaning of a situation. 00:09:16.565 --> 00:09:20.705 So that means that I've gotta inquire, I've gotta ask enough questions to 00:09:20.705 --> 00:09:25.205 understand how you experienced that, that client meeting, that argument 00:09:25.235 --> 00:09:26.405 my husband and I may have had. 00:09:26.735 --> 00:09:31.415 And then once I've listened, internalized, the meaning you 00:09:31.415 --> 00:09:35.315 made, I've gotta paraphrase it back as a check for my understanding. 00:09:35.765 --> 00:09:40.985 A real humble attempt to say, this is my summary of what I think you experienced. 00:09:41.255 --> 00:09:42.125 But is that right? 00:09:42.635 --> 00:09:43.655 Fix what I'm missing? 00:09:43.655 --> 00:09:45.635 Is it half right and I miss the other half? 00:09:45.995 --> 00:09:50.670 And once we can paraphrase, this is a skill that, honestly, I think it's 00:09:50.670 --> 00:09:53.520 like punching above its weight, right? 00:09:53.520 --> 00:09:57.060 After I've taken all this time to really ask these open, thoughtful questions, 00:09:57.060 --> 00:10:02.610 get curious, understand your perspective, make sure you show the person that 00:10:02.610 --> 00:10:04.590 you are internalizing what they said. 00:10:04.620 --> 00:10:07.350 And like you said, it's not agreeing, it's just acknowledging. 00:10:07.470 --> 00:10:10.320 And when they finally say yes, that's it. 00:10:10.620 --> 00:10:13.020 Then you've grown the shared pool of understanding, at 00:10:13.020 --> 00:10:14.220 least from their perspective. 00:10:14.220 --> 00:10:18.025 And then you can go share yours, and that's where you move into advocacy. 00:10:18.025 --> 00:10:20.814 But at the end of the day, the balance you're looking for is 00:10:20.844 --> 00:10:24.074 inquiry, paraphrasing and advocacy. 00:10:24.465 --> 00:10:28.665 And inquiry and paraphrasing are listening skills, both to understand 00:10:28.665 --> 00:10:32.865 what the other person experienced and confirm with them that my understanding 00:10:32.865 --> 00:10:34.665 was correct of their experience. 00:10:34.755 --> 00:10:36.885 And the advocacy skills, the talking one, right? 00:10:36.885 --> 00:10:40.635 That's essentially a two thirds, one third ratio, and I don't mean it as 00:10:40.635 --> 00:10:44.635 an exact science, but I did have a student say to me one time, oh, so 00:10:44.665 --> 00:10:48.935 that's why my parents said you have two ears and one mouth for a reason. 00:10:49.745 --> 00:10:53.645 A lot more listening and confirming that I understood you 00:10:53.645 --> 00:10:57.515 correctly from your perspective before I dive into sharing mine, 00:10:57.905 --> 00:11:01.325 Matt Abrahams: I like your definition of listening as seeking shared understanding. 00:11:02.220 --> 00:11:08.280 And when you take that approach, it definitely puts you in a place of being 00:11:08.280 --> 00:11:13.830 present, of being humble, because you're checking, maybe I didn't get it right. 00:11:14.220 --> 00:11:17.760 And leveraging, what I think is one of the most powerful communication 00:11:17.760 --> 00:11:20.640 skills, which is paraphrasing because it does so much for us. 00:11:20.730 --> 00:11:22.830 I really appreciate that approach. 00:11:23.680 --> 00:11:26.260 I'd like to turn our conversation to a different topic. 00:11:26.350 --> 00:11:29.620 I know you are likely getting similar questions to me with artificial 00:11:29.620 --> 00:11:31.660 intelligence, AI, coming into things. 00:11:32.140 --> 00:11:35.200 How do you envision that AI could actually help us with some of these 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:37.090 tricky communication situations? 00:11:37.300 --> 00:11:42.250 Jenn Wynn: Yes, I have seen several of my students find some really great uses 00:11:42.430 --> 00:11:44.680 for AI, so I'll give some examples. 00:11:45.224 --> 00:11:48.615 Sometimes I have a student who wants to work on their tone. 00:11:48.795 --> 00:11:51.645 They've received feedback that their tone is getting in the way of their 00:11:51.645 --> 00:11:56.444 message being received, and so they'll type in what they wanna say and 00:11:56.505 --> 00:12:02.204 say, make that tone more friendly, or make that tone more respectful. 00:12:02.495 --> 00:12:06.785 And get a sense for what some other language, some other word choice might be 00:12:06.965 --> 00:12:11.015 to help them still deliver an authentic message, but in a way that can be heard. 00:12:11.314 --> 00:12:12.965 So that's one interesting way. 00:12:13.115 --> 00:12:16.145 I think another is coming up with perspectives that I 00:12:16.145 --> 00:12:17.555 haven't considered, right? 00:12:17.555 --> 00:12:19.085 Here's the problem I'm dealing with. 00:12:19.265 --> 00:12:20.945 What other perspectives could there be? 00:12:20.945 --> 00:12:21.935 Or here's my take. 00:12:22.235 --> 00:12:26.155 And then recently I had a student really enjoy the role plays that we 00:12:26.155 --> 00:12:31.015 did in class, but not have someone back in her apartment to role play with. 00:12:31.225 --> 00:12:35.785 And she actually asked ChatGPT to role play with her, uh, which 00:12:35.785 --> 00:12:37.255 I thought was such a cool idea. 00:12:37.315 --> 00:12:39.865 And I just think at the end of the day, we have to keep in mind that this 00:12:39.865 --> 00:12:45.270 is one perspective based on whatever data this particular LLM has been 00:12:45.270 --> 00:12:49.140 trained on, and not take it as the final word, but just more options. 00:12:49.470 --> 00:12:52.320 Matt Abrahams: Practice for these situations can be so important, 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:55.050 as with any communication, and using a tool to do that. 00:12:55.350 --> 00:12:58.770 And I really like this idea of having a tool help you see what 00:12:58.770 --> 00:13:02.020 other wording can affect tone in a way that you might not see. 00:13:02.290 --> 00:13:03.120 I like that a lot. 00:13:03.560 --> 00:13:06.420 Like me, you host a podcast, one that I've enjoyed very much. 00:13:06.780 --> 00:13:10.770 I'm curious to learn how you balance your inquiry to challenge your guests 00:13:10.920 --> 00:13:13.949 without turning your interviews into challenging conversations. 00:13:14.400 --> 00:13:19.350 In other words, how do you put your audience at ease enough to have the deep, 00:13:19.350 --> 00:13:21.569 meaningful conversations that you have? 00:13:21.810 --> 00:13:26.370 Jenn Wynn: So on The H.I. Note podcast we're talking about how people 00:13:26.370 --> 00:13:29.250 healed from some really tough stuff. 00:13:29.580 --> 00:13:34.500 You know, childhood trauma, loss of loved ones, disease, goodness, 00:13:34.500 --> 00:13:36.360 toxic relationships, you name it. 00:13:36.600 --> 00:13:41.760 And so before I asked them to share about some of the toughest moments in their 00:13:41.760 --> 00:13:46.330 lives, I start by surprising them with three things that I love about them. 00:13:46.670 --> 00:13:51.245 And so this is not in the agenda that I send them ahead of time. 00:13:51.455 --> 00:13:56.015 But when we sit down to chat, I let them know three elements of who 00:13:56.015 --> 00:13:58.415 they are that I absolutely love. 00:13:58.895 --> 00:14:05.045 And it's amazing to see how, not only pleasantly surprised they are, which 00:14:05.045 --> 00:14:10.985 is just a nice moment of pure joy and connection, but also to see how once 00:14:10.985 --> 00:14:15.935 they feel seen as a whole person, and in a strengths based and affirming way, 00:14:16.305 --> 00:14:22.095 they become more generous in what they share and the conversations go deeper. 00:14:22.095 --> 00:14:28.125 And I learn such amazing insights because they've really let down any walls or any 00:14:28.125 --> 00:14:30.525 pretense and just shared from the heart. 00:14:30.825 --> 00:14:36.735 And it's been a beautiful gift to see how powerful asset-based framing is, and 00:14:36.735 --> 00:14:38.535 I've brought that over into my classes. 00:14:38.805 --> 00:14:43.155 So for Difficult Conversations, and for the other courses I teach, in the very 00:14:43.155 --> 00:14:47.715 beginning, in the first session, I'll ask folks to gather up in trios and do 00:14:47.715 --> 00:14:49.814 an exercise that I call at your best. 00:14:49.965 --> 00:14:52.995 And so they'll share in trios times they were at their best 00:14:53.025 --> 00:14:54.555 during a difficult conversation. 00:14:54.585 --> 00:14:58.185 And then the feedback that they give one another is strengths based. 00:14:58.305 --> 00:15:01.725 So, this action that you took had a tremendously positive 00:15:01.725 --> 00:15:03.315 impact, do that again. 00:15:03.315 --> 00:15:07.695 Or, wow, I'm really impressed how you shifted your mindset right there 00:15:07.695 --> 00:15:12.405 in the middle of being triggered and now I'm gonna go do that as well. 00:15:12.765 --> 00:15:17.865 And students say that they not only feel seen after that exercise, but 00:15:17.865 --> 00:15:22.995 that the classroom environment is more psychologically safe and enables them to 00:15:22.995 --> 00:15:25.064 be more brave in the rest of the course. 00:15:25.425 --> 00:15:27.105 Matt Abrahams: I love that as an opening activity. 00:15:27.135 --> 00:15:31.785 I'm going to borrow it, if you don't mind, to have people think about in my course, 00:15:31.785 --> 00:15:35.475 a time where they were able to communicate strategically in a way that was successful 00:15:35.475 --> 00:15:37.185 and then to get that positive affirmation. 00:15:37.574 --> 00:15:41.084 I really like this idea of leading with connection. 00:15:41.235 --> 00:15:45.135 You sharing the three things that you really appreciate about the person is 00:15:45.135 --> 00:15:50.600 a way of connecting and saying, I see you, I know you and I respect you. 00:15:50.780 --> 00:15:55.970 And that opens up the door to perhaps more challenging or, or deeper conversations. 00:15:55.970 --> 00:15:56.660 Thank you for that. 00:15:57.380 --> 00:16:00.209 Well, as you know, as someone who listens to the podcast, I end 00:16:00.350 --> 00:16:02.270 every episode with three questions. 00:16:02.270 --> 00:16:05.360 One I make up just for you, and two, I ask everybody, are you ready for that? 00:16:05.540 --> 00:16:06.079 Jenn Wynn: I think so. 00:16:06.550 --> 00:16:07.689 Matt Abrahams: Yes, you're gonna do great. 00:16:07.930 --> 00:16:10.689 I'm going to ask you the unfair question that I always get asked, 'cause 00:16:10.689 --> 00:16:11.890 I'll be curious about your answer. 00:16:12.130 --> 00:16:16.180 So people will often ask me, what's the one thing I can do 00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:19.870 to improve my communication, as if there is one magic key. 00:16:20.170 --> 00:16:23.380 But I'm asking you this question because I hope it gives you an opportunity to 00:16:23.380 --> 00:16:25.750 talk about something that we haven't talked about, because we've talked 00:16:25.750 --> 00:16:30.160 about a lot of really deep, meaningful communication bits of advice, know your 00:16:30.160 --> 00:16:32.080 audience, know yourself, paraphrase. 00:16:32.410 --> 00:16:34.990 Is there something that we haven't covered that you think is important? 00:16:35.535 --> 00:16:36.225 Jenn Wynn: Practice. 00:16:36.885 --> 00:16:39.705 At the end of the day, the goal is not perfection. 00:16:39.735 --> 00:16:40.815 It doesn't exist. 00:16:41.115 --> 00:16:43.425 The goal is continual improvement. 00:16:44.025 --> 00:16:45.825 I wanna keep getting better and better. 00:16:46.455 --> 00:16:52.485 And so the way to do that, of course, like any muscle building activity is practice. 00:16:52.515 --> 00:16:56.415 And so I really do, not only create a lot of practice opportunities for 00:16:56.415 --> 00:17:00.795 my students in class, but I give them ideas of how they might continue 00:17:00.795 --> 00:17:03.015 practicing after the class is over. 00:17:03.224 --> 00:17:08.444 And my suggestion is to make it a little more challenging each time. 00:17:08.655 --> 00:17:10.935 So start with the low stakes day to day stuff. 00:17:11.175 --> 00:17:13.754 When you're chatting with your roommate, ask a few more questions 00:17:13.754 --> 00:17:16.845 than you might have otherwise asked so that you build that inquiry muscle. 00:17:16.994 --> 00:17:21.465 But then when you have a disagreement with a colleague, if you think, this 00:17:21.465 --> 00:17:25.695 might actually make a difference if I shared this one perspective, try out 00:17:25.815 --> 00:17:30.705 stating your intention, sharing your perspective, and then asking for a greater 00:17:30.705 --> 00:17:32.145 understanding on their perspective. 00:17:32.205 --> 00:17:36.615 And as we continue to have more and more repetition, right, as we build in the 00:17:36.615 --> 00:17:40.695 reps, we're not only gonna build the muscle, which feels good, but then it's 00:17:40.695 --> 00:17:45.420 gonna be ready for us to flex when the moment counts, when we're in the most 00:17:45.420 --> 00:17:50.190 consequential conversation, we will have already built up those great question 00:17:50.190 --> 00:17:54.690 asking muscles, those great paraphrasing muscles, those great intention stating 00:17:54.690 --> 00:17:56.070 muscles, and so on and so forth. 00:17:56.250 --> 00:17:59.430 So practice, practice, practice, and make it a little more 00:17:59.430 --> 00:18:01.260 challenging each time along the way. 00:18:01.410 --> 00:18:03.210 Matt Abrahams: And I think that's absolutely dead on. 00:18:03.210 --> 00:18:04.170 We have to practice. 00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:07.710 I'll be curious to hear your answer, who's a communicator you admire and why? 00:18:08.040 --> 00:18:09.180 Jenn Wynn: Michelle Obama. 00:18:09.840 --> 00:18:13.439 Her authenticity is palpable. 00:18:13.979 --> 00:18:18.629 When she's sharing, it's not only real and true for her and others in the 00:18:18.629 --> 00:18:20.925 room, it's the heart of the matter. 00:18:21.225 --> 00:18:23.985 She's not being authentic about things on the fringe. 00:18:25.305 --> 00:18:29.535 She's getting to that piece that lands in the pit of my stomach that I may 00:18:29.535 --> 00:18:31.035 not have had the courage to share. 00:18:31.035 --> 00:18:35.085 And she has so many great quotes, one of which is, courage is contagious. 00:18:35.535 --> 00:18:39.135 And I feel that in her presence or when I'm watching a speech of hers. 00:18:39.345 --> 00:18:43.605 And then of course her ability to connect, but she's fantastic at connection 00:18:43.605 --> 00:18:46.490 through relatable storytelling and humor. 00:18:46.760 --> 00:18:50.360 And I've seen that in her most casual and impromptu moments 00:18:50.390 --> 00:18:52.370 and in her prepared speeches. 00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:53.930 It's just a part of who she is. 00:18:54.350 --> 00:18:55.820 Matt Abrahams: Courage is contagious. 00:18:56.210 --> 00:18:58.550 Really profound actually. 00:18:58.970 --> 00:19:01.040 And connection, and the ability to connect. 00:19:01.040 --> 00:19:03.080 Storytelling is a key tool for that. 00:19:04.310 --> 00:19:07.400 Alright, what are the first three ingredients that go into a 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:09.560 successful communication recipe? 00:19:10.310 --> 00:19:14.985 Jenn Wynn: Audience, intent or goal, and listening. 00:19:15.675 --> 00:19:19.035 Uh, we've already spoken about the importance of knowing where the 00:19:19.035 --> 00:19:22.365 other person is at and how to meet them where they are at, right? 00:19:22.365 --> 00:19:28.305 Emotionally, during that time of day or in their schedule, what matters most to them. 00:19:28.305 --> 00:19:33.720 Understanding how to create a shared goal, right, which goes into the second piece. 00:19:34.020 --> 00:19:38.490 And then the last piece, you might've thought it'd be something around 00:19:38.850 --> 00:19:41.760 know what your message is, or be clear on what your message is. 00:19:42.090 --> 00:19:46.470 But the reason I think it's listening is because if I'm really growing 00:19:46.470 --> 00:19:50.550 the shared pool of understanding, if I'm really hearing your perspective 00:19:50.555 --> 00:19:55.230 and understanding it to a level that I didn't understand before, I may 00:19:55.230 --> 00:19:58.094 actually have a new idea, right? 00:19:58.094 --> 00:20:02.235 I've heard the quote, dialogue is the birthplace of synergy. 00:20:02.745 --> 00:20:07.875 Your information and the way you made meaning of that information might 00:20:07.875 --> 00:20:12.945 create, not just a new perspective within me, but a new meaning making, a new 00:20:12.945 --> 00:20:16.935 understanding of what matters most and therefore, what I'm most wanna drive home. 00:20:16.935 --> 00:20:21.165 So, audience, intent or goal, and listening. 00:20:21.405 --> 00:20:23.445 Matt Abrahams: So audience and intent and listening. 00:20:23.695 --> 00:20:25.905 Jenn, this has been a fantastic conversation. 00:20:25.965 --> 00:20:29.355 You have equipped me, and hopefully our listeners, with many tools they can 00:20:29.355 --> 00:20:32.775 use, and you have certainly increased our shared understanding and meaning. 00:20:33.045 --> 00:20:34.875 Thank you for joining us and thank you for your time. 00:20:35.135 --> 00:20:36.065 Jenn Wynn: Thank you for having me. 00:20:36.065 --> 00:20:36.725 This was fun. 00:20:39.695 --> 00:20:41.764 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:20:41.764 --> 00:20:43.895 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:20:44.225 --> 00:20:47.315 To learn more about difficult conversations listen to episode 00:20:47.315 --> 00:20:49.064 22 with David Demarest. 00:20:49.565 --> 00:20:54.025 This episode was produced by Ryan Campos, Katherine Reed, and me, Matt Abrahams, 00:20:54.385 --> 00:20:56.825 at the Spotify Studios in New York City. 00:20:57.275 --> 00:20:58.835 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:01.440 With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:21:01.800 --> 00:21:04.800 Find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:06.990 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:09.152 Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram. 00:21:09.330 --> 00:21:13.530 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:21:13.530 --> 00:21:15.840 learning content, and our newsletter.