1 00:00:07,541 --> 00:00:10,458 Good morning, good afternoon and good evening. 2 00:00:10,458 --> 00:00:12,416 Welcome to Rethink Culture. 3 00:00:12,416 --> 00:00:15,000 It's the podcast that shines a spotlight on business leaders 4 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,291 who are rethinking workplace culture. 5 00:00:17,291 --> 00:00:21,083 My name is Andreas Constantinou, and I'm your host and I'm also chairman 6 00:00:21,083 --> 00:00:25,916 and founder at SlashData and an accidental micromanager who turned servant leader 7 00:00:26,500 --> 00:00:29,666 over the years and developed a personal passion for workplace culture. 8 00:00:30,791 --> 00:00:32,916 If you have any thoughts you'd like to share, let me know 9 00:00:32,916 --> 00:00:36,291 by emailing rethink@rethinkculture.co. 10 00:00:36,291 --> 00:00:39,791 And today, I have the pleasure of hosting Byron Darlison. 11 00:00:39,875 --> 00:00:42,875 Byron is the founder of Rise, 12 00:00:43,375 --> 00:00:47,291 which is a Canadian content management firm for digital signage. 13 00:00:47,291 --> 00:00:51,041 He recently sold that and he spent a lot of time thinking 14 00:00:51,041 --> 00:00:55,625 about culture and organizing the business for efficiency. 15 00:00:55,708 --> 00:00:58,666 Today, Byron spends most of his time outside his business 16 00:00:58,666 --> 00:01:02,541 outdoors, canoeing, camping, cycling, skiing, he tells me, 17 00:01:02,541 --> 00:01:06,750 which is only four months a year in Canada, unfortunately. 18 00:01:06,750 --> 00:01:08,541 So lots to talk about, Byron. 19 00:01:08,541 --> 00:01:12,291 Very much welcome to the Rethink Culture podcast. 20 00:01:12,333 --> 00:01:13,166 Thanks. 21 00:01:13,166 --> 00:01:16,041 Glad to be here. 22 00:01:16,041 --> 00:01:21,291 You are a systems thinker and that's how I would describe you. 23 00:01:21,291 --> 00:01:24,458 I was fascinated, literally 24 00:01:24,458 --> 00:01:27,750 fascinated when I came across Rise. 25 00:01:27,833 --> 00:01:31,625 I think it was by something you posted on Slack 26 00:01:31,958 --> 00:01:35,416 for Entrepreneur’s Organization, EO. 27 00:01:35,500 --> 00:01:39,041 And on that page, you had a very 28 00:01:40,333 --> 00:01:43,500 thoroughly thought out and documented 29 00:01:44,083 --> 00:01:47,625 set of processes for everything from like 30 00:01:47,625 --> 00:01:53,375 compensation and hiring and bonus schemes and like so much detail 31 00:01:53,375 --> 00:01:57,166 about how Rise works. 32 00:01:57,250 --> 00:02:00,833 And I thought it was very bold that you put this out 33 00:02:01,291 --> 00:02:04,416 for everyone to see, but you had also taken so much 34 00:02:06,041 --> 00:02:09,541 energy and focus to get it documented at that level of detail. 35 00:02:10,541 --> 00:02:13,541 So what 36 00:02:13,708 --> 00:02:18,666 motivated you to put out in the public and what was the thought process behind it? 37 00:02:19,583 --> 00:02:22,875 Probably two parts. 38 00:02:22,958 --> 00:02:27,541 Our operating system was probably comprised of 39 00:02:29,291 --> 00:02:32,291 ten or 15 different frameworks 40 00:02:32,958 --> 00:02:37,625 that over time we we merged together that, 41 00:02:38,125 --> 00:02:41,875 you know, better thinkers than I created and they shared. 42 00:02:43,125 --> 00:02:47,083 So there was a desire to pay it 43 00:02:47,083 --> 00:02:50,083 forward, to make it available. 44 00:02:50,208 --> 00:02:52,250 But more importantly, 45 00:02:52,250 --> 00:02:55,583 there's a desire to write it down, 46 00:02:56,750 --> 00:02:59,750 to put it in stone so that 47 00:03:00,833 --> 00:03:03,833 it reinforces the discipline, the cadence, 48 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:08,833 what we call the artifacts that maintain each step in terms of how we work. 49 00:03:08,916 --> 00:03:13,958 And by putting it down and constantly updating that, 50 00:03:13,958 --> 00:03:16,958 it just reinforces the commitment 51 00:03:16,958 --> 00:03:20,000 to that process. 52 00:03:20,291 --> 00:03:23,416 And did you have any people who were attracted 53 00:03:23,416 --> 00:03:27,083 to Rise as a result of what you posted there? 54 00:03:27,125 --> 00:03:31,583 Was it meant as a as kind of employer branding in today's terms? 55 00:03:32,125 --> 00:03:35,125 I would call it employee filtering. 56 00:03:37,375 --> 00:03:40,375 It made it really, really clear as to how we work. 57 00:03:41,250 --> 00:03:45,125 And you either thought it was amazing or. 58 00:03:45,875 --> 00:03:47,541 Or you didn't. 59 00:03:47,541 --> 00:03:47,958 I don't... 60 00:03:47,958 --> 00:03:50,750 I don't... 61 00:03:50,750 --> 00:03:53,375 I'm not sure 62 00:03:53,375 --> 00:03:56,541 it was a recruiting tool in the sense of hyping the company. 63 00:03:56,625 --> 00:04:00,833 It was probably more of a filtering tool. 64 00:04:00,916 --> 00:04:02,666 And earlier you were telling me that 65 00:04:04,166 --> 00:04:07,166 when you hired someone, they 66 00:04:08,541 --> 00:04:11,166 might have stayed in the company for a year, maybe not, 67 00:04:11,166 --> 00:04:15,291 depending if the culture was a good fit for them. 68 00:04:15,666 --> 00:04:20,500 But if they did, they stayed on for a really long time. 69 00:04:20,583 --> 00:04:22,375 Yeah. So. 70 00:04:22,375 --> 00:04:26,625 When I exited the company I think probably the... 71 00:04:26,708 --> 00:04:29,625 I exited after 30 years, and I think 72 00:04:29,625 --> 00:04:32,625 the second employee was 28 years. 73 00:04:33,916 --> 00:04:36,833 Yeah. So 74 00:04:36,833 --> 00:04:38,291 there's, there's a lot of friends 75 00:04:38,291 --> 00:04:41,291 that have been in the company for a very long time. 76 00:04:42,625 --> 00:04:45,625 If you if you like the way we work, 77 00:04:46,583 --> 00:04:48,500 you stay. 78 00:04:48,500 --> 00:04:49,458 There's no drama. 79 00:04:49,458 --> 00:04:52,458 There's you know, it's a very straightforward 80 00:04:53,958 --> 00:04:55,875 relationship, 81 00:04:55,875 --> 00:04:58,833 but that's not always for everyone. 82 00:04:58,833 --> 00:05:02,875 And as we discussed, we're very transparent in our work. 83 00:05:03,625 --> 00:05:06,375 We're very accountable for our work 84 00:05:06,375 --> 00:05:09,083 quantitatively and 85 00:05:10,500 --> 00:05:13,500 it sounds 86 00:05:13,958 --> 00:05:16,333 great. 87 00:05:16,333 --> 00:05:19,083 But it's not for everyone. 88 00:05:19,083 --> 00:05:21,875 So if you made it past a year, 89 00:05:21,875 --> 00:05:25,250 you typically were there for a long time. 90 00:05:25,333 --> 00:05:28,000 But in that first year, turnover could be quite high. 91 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:29,625 Mm hmm. 92 00:05:29,625 --> 00:05:31,333 I think 93 00:05:31,333 --> 00:05:35,625 I think a lot about this notion that every company's weird or special in a sense. 94 00:05:36,375 --> 00:05:39,458 And I heard it first from Verne Harnish, who talked about it. 95 00:05:40,083 --> 00:05:44,000 And if you think if you think about it, like 96 00:05:44,583 --> 00:05:49,333 when we look for a relationship as people, we’re very particular 97 00:05:49,333 --> 00:05:54,291 about who we want next to us, like super particular. 98 00:05:54,291 --> 00:05:59,500 And a business is no different because it's influenced 99 00:05:59,500 --> 00:06:03,291 top down from the values of the founder or the founders. 100 00:06:03,375 --> 00:06:09,041 And the way that the company works, especially if the culture is intentional, 101 00:06:09,125 --> 00:06:13,875 does not fit everyone because they reflect a particular personality 102 00:06:13,875 --> 00:06:15,458 and values and principles and so on. 103 00:06:16,416 --> 00:06:19,416 So I think this kind of 104 00:06:20,458 --> 00:06:24,875 special values and attributes and principles the company has 105 00:06:24,875 --> 00:06:30,416 that made it make it a good fit for a small part of the population, 106 00:06:30,416 --> 00:06:34,958 what Robert Glazer in a previous podcast said, one or 2% 107 00:06:36,083 --> 00:06:39,083 of the people who apply, I think that is 108 00:06:39,875 --> 00:06:42,375 something we should be conscious 109 00:06:42,375 --> 00:06:45,375 about and proud about and thinking that, 110 00:06:45,666 --> 00:06:48,833 you know, this, this, this business that I've built as a founder 111 00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:52,583 is very particular in the way it does things. 112 00:06:52,583 --> 00:06:55,583 And so we need to be looking for 113 00:06:56,083 --> 00:06:59,083 the people that, you know, 114 00:07:00,125 --> 00:07:04,833 are inspired by what inspires us and follow 115 00:07:04,833 --> 00:07:11,541 the same truths and values and principles. 116 00:07:11,625 --> 00:07:13,416 Sorry, did you have any thoughts on that or. 117 00:07:13,416 --> 00:07:15,208 I had a question after that. 118 00:07:15,208 --> 00:07:17,625 I've been talking for too long. 119 00:07:17,625 --> 00:07:18,583 No, no, no, no. 120 00:07:20,500 --> 00:07:23,500 The dangerous side about that. 121 00:07:23,875 --> 00:07:25,750 The thing to be 122 00:07:25,750 --> 00:07:28,291 careful about, which always worried me, 123 00:07:28,291 --> 00:07:31,541 was just drinking your own Kool-Aid too much. 124 00:07:31,583 --> 00:07:34,208 So... 125 00:07:34,208 --> 00:07:36,458 and this was the other part of writing it down 126 00:07:36,458 --> 00:07:42,083 and committing to constantly updating it, is... 127 00:07:42,166 --> 00:07:46,916 Well, as we mentioned earlier, strong convictions loosely held 128 00:07:47,708 --> 00:07:51,458 the value of the company, which meaning that this is our culture, 129 00:07:51,458 --> 00:07:52,541 this is how we do things. 130 00:07:52,541 --> 00:07:54,875 We're very, very committed to this. 131 00:07:54,875 --> 00:07:56,208 And... 132 00:07:56,208 --> 00:08:01,333 but if you come along and you speak a truth that's going to improve 133 00:08:01,333 --> 00:08:03,625 or, you know, 134 00:08:03,625 --> 00:08:07,416 invalidate something in here we are not attached to it. 135 00:08:08,083 --> 00:08:10,333 We will throw it out and adopt your truth. 136 00:08:10,333 --> 00:08:13,333 We will 137 00:08:13,333 --> 00:08:16,250 unabashedly steal 138 00:08:16,250 --> 00:08:19,875 what you’ve just brought forward and we will incorporate it. 139 00:08:20,791 --> 00:08:23,625 So I think it's extremely important. 140 00:08:23,625 --> 00:08:27,958 It's strong convictions, loosely held, and I don't know who said that or when, 141 00:08:28,750 --> 00:08:32,958 but I think that's incredibly important when 142 00:08:34,041 --> 00:08:34,625 creating your 143 00:08:34,625 --> 00:08:37,750 culture to make sure you don't become 144 00:08:37,750 --> 00:08:42,041 so attached to it that it's just one big group thing. 145 00:08:42,208 --> 00:08:43,750 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 146 00:08:43,750 --> 00:08:46,750 Like, like the sign says on my 147 00:08:48,041 --> 00:08:50,208 right or to your left. 148 00:08:50,208 --> 00:08:55,166 I like always learning and unlearning, you know, admitting 149 00:08:55,166 --> 00:08:58,666 or putting aside your ego and admitting you are wrong is part of that. 150 00:08:59,375 --> 00:09:02,791 There's no there's no other way. 151 00:09:02,875 --> 00:09:04,541 Absolutely. 152 00:09:04,541 --> 00:09:10,333 So let's zoom in to what makes or made Rise special. 153 00:09:10,333 --> 00:09:14,958 Made because you've left the company but makes because it's still around. 154 00:09:15,541 --> 00:09:19,583 So what makes Rise special? 155 00:09:20,708 --> 00:09:23,708 We talked earlier about focus, discipline and cadence, 156 00:09:24,458 --> 00:09:27,666 which are very intentional words. 157 00:09:27,750 --> 00:09:31,708 Do you want to describe the highlights of 158 00:09:33,583 --> 00:09:34,625 these three words? 159 00:09:34,625 --> 00:09:37,625 What do they mean for you? 160 00:09:38,250 --> 00:09:40,708 Maybe if I could start with something 161 00:09:42,125 --> 00:09:44,750 to the question of what makes the company special. 162 00:09:44,750 --> 00:09:51,000 Coming back to tenure, the people that are there 163 00:09:52,125 --> 00:09:57,666 and the time that we've been together and the time that they've spent 164 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,208 acquiring domain knowledge, they're experts 165 00:10:01,375 --> 00:10:04,875 in their domains... 166 00:10:04,958 --> 00:10:05,833 is incredible. 167 00:10:05,833 --> 00:10:12,916 So I think what makes the company special are extremely experienced people 168 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,750 with unbelievable domain knowledge. 169 00:10:16,833 --> 00:10:20,875 And what the company, me, 170 00:10:21,041 --> 00:10:24,041 finally figured out is get out of the way, 171 00:10:24,750 --> 00:10:28,166 empower them to exercise that domain knowledge 172 00:10:29,041 --> 00:10:32,041 to do amazing things 173 00:10:32,166 --> 00:10:35,208 and harness it in a way 174 00:10:36,083 --> 00:10:40,291 that is extremely focused and productive. 175 00:10:40,375 --> 00:10:43,291 Meaning that there is one thing that the company 176 00:10:43,291 --> 00:10:46,708 is doing for a quarter or 90 days 177 00:10:47,500 --> 00:10:50,458 that will harness all of that domain knowledge 178 00:10:50,458 --> 00:10:53,166 to produce some improvement 179 00:10:53,166 --> 00:10:56,166 that will become a baseline in the company. 180 00:10:56,541 --> 00:10:58,875 So then the next quarter you add another brick, 181 00:10:58,875 --> 00:11:02,458 you add another brick, you add another brick. That 182 00:11:04,625 --> 00:11:06,125 getting out of the way, 183 00:11:06,125 --> 00:11:09,125 focusing that domain knowledge, that expertise 184 00:11:09,750 --> 00:11:15,333 and doing it in a process that is... 185 00:11:15,333 --> 00:11:18,333 got a very defined cadence, rhythm 186 00:11:18,625 --> 00:11:23,541 and methodology for constantly 187 00:11:23,708 --> 00:11:28,625 running that engine is just very, very productive. 188 00:11:28,625 --> 00:11:33,041 And it empowers people to, you know, 189 00:11:33,125 --> 00:11:36,125 realize the expertise that we've acquired 190 00:11:36,333 --> 00:11:39,333 and see they 191 00:11:39,875 --> 00:11:42,916 get the creative return on what they're doing. 192 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,000 You know they feel ownership and 193 00:11:49,083 --> 00:11:52,625 room to make cool stuff. 194 00:11:52,708 --> 00:11:53,958 Mm hmm. 195 00:11:53,958 --> 00:11:57,125 I want to get to something 196 00:11:57,125 --> 00:12:00,250 we discussed earlier before starting the recording, 197 00:12:00,250 --> 00:12:04,541 which is skip level reviews and how you used those 198 00:12:04,541 --> 00:12:07,541 to help managers 199 00:12:07,625 --> 00:12:10,875 pick one thing they wanted to improve each quarter. 200 00:12:12,333 --> 00:12:16,958 How'd that, how does that work exactly? 201 00:12:17,041 --> 00:12:21,708 So it's a combination of 202 00:12:23,791 --> 00:12:27,291 Peter Drucker with the concept of performance agreements, 203 00:12:28,583 --> 00:12:30,666 co-creating 204 00:12:30,666 --> 00:12:33,291 and understanding all of the character traits 205 00:12:33,291 --> 00:12:37,458 that comprise a role and what excellent 206 00:12:38,541 --> 00:12:42,625 performance or adaptation of that character trait is, 207 00:12:42,625 --> 00:12:46,083 and A, you know, sort of a middle ground, a B and a C, 208 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,208 and then I believe it was Kim 209 00:12:49,208 --> 00:12:52,875 Scott and her book, Radical Candor. 210 00:12:52,958 --> 00:12:55,958 Provided the framework for 211 00:12:56,041 --> 00:12:57,125 skip level reviews. 212 00:12:57,125 --> 00:13:00,208 So what happens is every quarter, and this is discipline because it's 213 00:13:00,208 --> 00:13:05,291 hard work, someone has to go through 40 character traits, 214 00:13:05,875 --> 00:13:11,125 values, their critical number of performance and rate themselves. 215 00:13:11,250 --> 00:13:13,458 Did I achieve my critical number for the quarter? 216 00:13:13,458 --> 00:13:16,708 Everybody has one critical number, a red, green 217 00:13:16,958 --> 00:13:19,958 or yellow target. 218 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:21,916 Where am I at in the values? 219 00:13:21,916 --> 00:13:24,916 You know, fully, fully aligned, 220 00:13:25,208 --> 00:13:27,958 not so much, not aligned. 221 00:13:27,958 --> 00:13:33,208 Where am I at on the character traits for my role in the company? 222 00:13:33,291 --> 00:13:34,916 And there's a lot of them there. 223 00:13:34,916 --> 00:13:39,625 You're going to be very self-critical and analytic. 224 00:13:39,625 --> 00:13:40,125 And just 225 00:13:41,791 --> 00:13:44,041 as an aside, 226 00:13:44,041 --> 00:13:46,291 in my experience, 227 00:13:46,291 --> 00:13:48,291 people were more critical 228 00:13:48,291 --> 00:13:51,333 of themselves than their manager was. 229 00:13:52,125 --> 00:13:55,541 Typically, it was more, No, that's not as bad as you say. 230 00:13:55,541 --> 00:13:58,208 It's this. 231 00:13:58,208 --> 00:14:01,208 When you provide a framework that's open and honest 232 00:14:01,375 --> 00:14:05,083 and just really devoted to improving a person, 233 00:14:05,166 --> 00:14:08,083 people will become very self-analytical 234 00:14:08,083 --> 00:14:11,083 and in some cases a little too critical. 235 00:14:11,375 --> 00:14:13,708 So you take that 236 00:14:13,708 --> 00:14:16,833 personal retrospection with feedback from their manager, 237 00:14:17,541 --> 00:14:22,208 but their manager, assuming that the person is a manager of people, meets 238 00:14:22,208 --> 00:14:26,625 with their reports directly and discusses things like what's going really well, 239 00:14:28,125 --> 00:14:29,708 what's not going so well. 240 00:14:29,708 --> 00:14:31,333 If you were there, what would you do differently? 241 00:14:31,333 --> 00:14:34,000 There's four or five questions. 242 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,000 And all of that is collated anonymously 243 00:14:37,708 --> 00:14:42,833 and into a doc, and that document is shared 244 00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:48,083 with the person whose performance review is up that quarter. 245 00:14:48,875 --> 00:14:51,333 And you take that combined and then you say to them, 246 00:14:51,333 --> 00:14:54,708 based on the feedback from people who report to you, 247 00:14:54,750 --> 00:14:58,333 your own self analysis, myself as a manager's feedback, 248 00:14:58,833 --> 00:15:02,458 what's the one thing that you need to do this quarter 249 00:15:03,333 --> 00:15:07,500 to improve your execution, to improve your ability 250 00:15:07,500 --> 00:15:12,250 to lead, to improve your ability to go along with peers, whatever it is. 251 00:15:12,250 --> 00:15:16,708 Typically, people will come back with ten things. 252 00:15:16,791 --> 00:15:22,458 My experience has been that everybody complains about being forced to multitask. 253 00:15:24,375 --> 00:15:25,750 It's delusional. 254 00:15:25,750 --> 00:15:28,750 My biggest fight with people is not to multitask. 255 00:15:28,833 --> 00:15:29,750 Pick one thing. 256 00:15:29,750 --> 00:15:33,500 It's very, very difficult for people to pick one plan and stick to it 257 00:15:33,625 --> 00:15:35,541 until it's done. 258 00:15:35,541 --> 00:15:40,208 So, just like the company, every quarter you will go out to do one thing 259 00:15:40,291 --> 00:15:43,500 for the company that will improve everything. 260 00:15:43,583 --> 00:15:48,250 For the people, you do one thing that will improve your ability 261 00:15:48,875 --> 00:15:53,916 to be a domain expert in what you do and be able 262 00:15:53,916 --> 00:15:58,833 to capitalize on that expertise and how you work with everyone around you. 263 00:15:58,916 --> 00:16:00,666 How much did you see? 264 00:16:00,666 --> 00:16:03,666 How much did you see people change as a result? 265 00:16:04,208 --> 00:16:07,208 Marginally or phenomenally 266 00:16:10,541 --> 00:16:11,250 or none at all? 267 00:16:11,250 --> 00:16:14,125 For those that stayed? 268 00:16:14,125 --> 00:16:16,041 For those that stayed? 269 00:16:16,041 --> 00:16:17,750 I assume so, yeah. 270 00:16:17,750 --> 00:16:19,833 That's an interesting question. Nobody's asked me that before. 271 00:16:19,833 --> 00:16:23,791 Okay, so, I found that 272 00:16:23,791 --> 00:16:28,875 people changed incredibly to a point. 273 00:16:28,958 --> 00:16:33,500 And then because that process, was really, really open, transparent, 274 00:16:33,750 --> 00:16:37,375 candid, radical candor, there were many cases 275 00:16:37,375 --> 00:16:40,375 where the person went, No, I got to go back down a level. 276 00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:41,833 I'm more happy here. 277 00:16:43,416 --> 00:16:45,708 And so, 278 00:16:45,708 --> 00:16:48,875 you would improve exponentially in what you did. 279 00:16:49,416 --> 00:16:53,458 But sometimes someone would say, no, I'm really not happy here. 280 00:16:53,916 --> 00:16:56,000 I want to go back to what I was doing before. 281 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:57,833 Interesting. 282 00:16:57,833 --> 00:16:59,708 And they would stay. 283 00:16:59,708 --> 00:17:02,708 So people say, you know, 284 00:17:02,708 --> 00:17:06,708 you can never demote a person in terms of them 285 00:17:06,750 --> 00:17:09,833 being happy and stay with the company and all that kind of stuff. 286 00:17:09,916 --> 00:17:12,833 But when it's that type of process, it's not a demotion. 287 00:17:12,833 --> 00:17:17,375 It's where is your expertise, your domain expertise 288 00:17:17,375 --> 00:17:21,250 and your skill set and your interests lie, and what does that mean 289 00:17:21,250 --> 00:17:22,833 in terms of the company? 290 00:17:22,833 --> 00:17:26,166 Maybe you were thinking that you wanted to be a manager of managers 291 00:17:26,166 --> 00:17:29,166 because, you know, it just seemed like you should be. 292 00:17:29,416 --> 00:17:32,375 But now you're really, really unhappy because you're not feeling 293 00:17:32,375 --> 00:17:35,750 as creative as you were in your previous role. 294 00:17:35,833 --> 00:17:39,000 So to lose that person at that point is 295 00:17:40,708 --> 00:17:42,416 expensive, extremely expensive. 296 00:17:42,416 --> 00:17:45,916 You spend so much time building that expertise, that relationship, 297 00:17:45,958 --> 00:17:47,125 all of that stuff. 298 00:17:47,125 --> 00:17:50,000 You've got to figure out how to put them back 299 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,875 to where they truly want to be and can be truly productive. 300 00:17:54,833 --> 00:17:57,833 So maybe the better question is 301 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:03,916 what did this process do to improve tenure? 302 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,375 Meaning finding the right fit for somebody where they're going to be truly happy 303 00:18:08,375 --> 00:18:12,041 and want to stay at something for a long time. 304 00:18:12,125 --> 00:18:15,125 It reminds me of the Peter Principle, 305 00:18:15,250 --> 00:18:19,000 which says that in a hierarchy, every employee tends 306 00:18:19,625 --> 00:18:22,625 to rise to their level of incompetence. 307 00:18:23,541 --> 00:18:28,583 So you keep getting promoted and promoted, promoted until you are too far away 308 00:18:28,583 --> 00:18:31,708 from your comfort zone and your skill zone, 309 00:18:32,916 --> 00:18:35,916 and you stop being productive. 310 00:18:37,041 --> 00:18:40,166 And I mean, that is particularly true because 311 00:18:41,625 --> 00:18:45,500 in large organizations we tend to promote individual contributors 312 00:18:45,500 --> 00:18:48,625 who then become managers without them having people skills. 313 00:18:48,708 --> 00:18:52,500 But here you talk about a far broader range of skills such as people skills, 314 00:18:54,333 --> 00:18:58,041 and I think it's a brilliant example of 315 00:18:59,416 --> 00:19:03,875 self-awareness for someone to say, well, I'm actually more comfortable 316 00:19:03,875 --> 00:19:07,625 being who I was before and I don't want to evolve because, 317 00:19:08,750 --> 00:19:12,458 yeah, I'd rather stay true to my principles 318 00:19:12,458 --> 00:19:17,500 and what I feel comfortable with. 319 00:19:17,583 --> 00:19:20,583 And I think it's 320 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,083 80% a person's realization. 321 00:19:26,041 --> 00:19:29,083 But where I see most companies failing 322 00:19:29,166 --> 00:19:32,833 is, back to the Peter 323 00:19:32,833 --> 00:19:35,833 Principle, just leaving people here 324 00:19:36,750 --> 00:19:38,833 and not addressing the problem. 325 00:19:38,833 --> 00:19:41,416 So back to radical candor. 326 00:19:41,416 --> 00:19:44,916 You've got to come in and that's a really hard conversation. 327 00:19:45,125 --> 00:19:45,750 Oh, yeah. 328 00:19:45,750 --> 00:19:49,750 To say this doesn't seem to be working and you don't seem to be happy. 329 00:19:50,791 --> 00:19:53,708 What are we going to do about this? 330 00:19:53,708 --> 00:19:58,333 And that also is part of the culture 331 00:19:58,375 --> 00:20:01,416 we created, which isn't an easy culture. 332 00:20:01,833 --> 00:20:05,375 And also the reason why, you know, people would leave early 333 00:20:05,375 --> 00:20:08,750 because that very candid feedback, 334 00:20:08,833 --> 00:20:12,791 oh, it’s got to be delivered politely and, you know, 335 00:20:12,875 --> 00:20:16,833 kindly, is not 336 00:20:17,458 --> 00:20:19,916 what people are comfortable with. 337 00:20:19,916 --> 00:20:22,625 Yeah, 338 00:20:22,625 --> 00:20:23,791 yeah. 339 00:20:23,791 --> 00:20:26,791 Talking about changing what was one thing 340 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,000 that you committed to as part of the process 341 00:20:31,708 --> 00:20:35,583 and changed in the way you work? 342 00:20:36,208 --> 00:20:38,875 One, thing, back 343 00:20:38,875 --> 00:20:42,083 to one thing, there's so many things. 344 00:20:42,166 --> 00:20:45,666 Well, let's have three, if you want. Three? 345 00:20:45,666 --> 00:20:48,666 Oh, yeah. 346 00:20:49,625 --> 00:20:52,166 Flavor of the day 347 00:20:52,166 --> 00:20:53,791 killed that 348 00:20:53,791 --> 00:20:56,791 which meant say no more often than yes 349 00:20:57,125 --> 00:20:59,291 and saying no to myself 350 00:20:59,291 --> 00:21:02,291 more often than anyone else. 351 00:21:04,958 --> 00:21:09,333 No longer feeling responsible for 352 00:21:10,750 --> 00:21:12,875 being 353 00:21:12,875 --> 00:21:15,875 the ideation machine, 354 00:21:16,333 --> 00:21:19,083 just becoming a collator and editor, 355 00:21:19,083 --> 00:21:26,375 and I'll say it the polite way, shutting up. 356 00:21:27,208 --> 00:21:32,375 But in my head I'm saying it the other way and it tends just to reinforce. 357 00:21:32,375 --> 00:21:36,250 Like, you really shouldn't be talking. 358 00:21:36,333 --> 00:21:36,875 So why? 359 00:21:36,875 --> 00:21:40,958 Why did you or why did your employees feel you had to shut up? 360 00:21:40,958 --> 00:21:43,750 Was it because you were speaking too much? 361 00:21:43,750 --> 00:21:49,750 You had too many ideas? 362 00:21:49,833 --> 00:21:56,833 You know, I never had an employee tell me 363 00:21:58,416 --> 00:22:02,916 that I talked too much, that I can remember. 364 00:22:04,875 --> 00:22:11,041 But what I found is, you know, if you've been in business 365 00:22:11,041 --> 00:22:14,041 for a long time, you're a natural sales person 366 00:22:14,916 --> 00:22:19,208 and you couldn't sell your employees 367 00:22:19,416 --> 00:22:23,208 on your idea, the thing, your pet project or whatever, 368 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,500 and you can push and cram to get 369 00:22:28,750 --> 00:22:32,666 what you think is the most amazing thing since sliced bread. 370 00:22:32,750 --> 00:22:33,666 But it's something you’ve become 371 00:22:33,666 --> 00:22:37,958 so attached to you’re blind, and you got biases up-the-ying-yang. 372 00:22:38,041 --> 00:22:39,208 And when it's not working 373 00:22:39,208 --> 00:22:43,041 because you are so attached to it, you're not willing to abandon it. 374 00:22:43,041 --> 00:22:45,666 All of those things. So 375 00:22:47,416 --> 00:22:50,083 why are you doing that in the first place? 376 00:22:50,083 --> 00:22:53,125 You should be sitting there quietly 377 00:22:53,250 --> 00:22:57,041 creating space for all of those people that you pay a lot of money 378 00:22:57,541 --> 00:23:00,875 and who are experts and have been with you forever 379 00:23:01,625 --> 00:23:05,000 and in many cases are much closer to the situation 380 00:23:05,916 --> 00:23:09,250 to describe what should be happening. 381 00:23:09,333 --> 00:23:12,875 And then you should be spending all of your time focusing on that conversation 382 00:23:13,833 --> 00:23:16,416 as an editor, as a collator, 383 00:23:16,416 --> 00:23:19,916 to bring it together in shared ownership 384 00:23:20,166 --> 00:23:23,166 to be, Okay, we've gone through everything. 385 00:23:23,666 --> 00:23:27,458 We had ten options as to what we feel we ought to be doing next. 386 00:23:28,083 --> 00:23:31,166 Here's one that I think we're all in agreement 387 00:23:31,166 --> 00:23:34,166 on, and 388 00:23:34,666 --> 00:23:38,333 so and so, I know you don't agree what our principle is. 389 00:23:38,333 --> 00:23:41,166 We disagree and commit and here we're going to commit. 390 00:23:41,166 --> 00:23:42,250 I'm making the call. 391 00:23:43,875 --> 00:23:46,708 You have to back this 392 00:23:46,708 --> 00:23:49,375 and this is what we're going to go off and do. 393 00:23:49,375 --> 00:23:53,000 So if you do it the other way around, 394 00:23:55,500 --> 00:23:58,500 if you're anything like me historically, 395 00:23:58,708 --> 00:24:04,500 you've lost millions on your great ideas. 396 00:24:04,583 --> 00:24:08,041 Because they're not so great once they hit the... 397 00:24:08,041 --> 00:24:09,958 No, they’re stupid. road. 398 00:24:09,958 --> 00:24:16,000 They're absolutely stupid and they're 99% ego. 399 00:24:16,083 --> 00:24:17,875 Yeah, 400 00:24:17,875 --> 00:24:19,083 yeah, that's so true. 401 00:24:19,083 --> 00:24:24,541 And we, we always forget or we tend to forget that 402 00:24:25,333 --> 00:24:28,291 when a CEO comes in and says 403 00:24:28,291 --> 00:24:32,041 another great idea and everyone knows they’re head it's 404 00:24:32,041 --> 00:24:35,791 because of that person's job title and not because of the idea. 405 00:24:35,875 --> 00:24:39,083 Right? 406 00:24:39,166 --> 00:24:40,833 Yeah. 407 00:24:40,833 --> 00:24:45,541 You also mentioned earlier to me 408 00:24:45,541 --> 00:24:49,250 this paradigm of turning rocks into sand, 409 00:24:50,291 --> 00:24:53,166 which sounds like a Chinese parable, but it's actually something 410 00:24:53,166 --> 00:24:54,333 really tangible and 411 00:24:58,500 --> 00:24:59,875 I, I, 412 00:24:59,875 --> 00:25:03,750 I really like the way you describe that paradigm. 413 00:25:03,750 --> 00:25:05,708 Can you tell us 414 00:25:05,708 --> 00:25:07,250 more about how you put that into practice? 415 00:25:07,250 --> 00:25:10,750 Well, it's not... 416 00:25:10,750 --> 00:25:14,291 those term, well, I guess I put an extension on it. 417 00:25:14,291 --> 00:25:17,291 So Covey 418 00:25:17,375 --> 00:25:17,833 had the idea of... 419 00:25:17,833 --> 00:25:19,875 Stephen Covey? 420 00:25:19,875 --> 00:25:20,583 Yeah. 421 00:25:20,583 --> 00:25:25,750 Of working on, how did he put it, the important 422 00:25:25,750 --> 00:25:29,541 not the urgent or the, you know, he had those quadrants, so, 423 00:25:29,541 --> 00:25:33,625 the four quadrants, you got to be working on something. 424 00:25:33,708 --> 00:25:38,166 So his point was you take a fixed container 425 00:25:38,583 --> 00:25:41,583 and if you pour in all the sand, the mundane, the urgent, 426 00:25:42,166 --> 00:25:45,125 the things that are easy, and then you try to add 427 00:25:45,125 --> 00:25:48,916 three rocks to the container, you can't, you can't put them in. 428 00:25:48,958 --> 00:25:52,666 But if you put the three rocks in first and then pour in the sand, 429 00:25:52,666 --> 00:25:54,916 it fills all the space around it, 430 00:25:54,916 --> 00:25:58,125 you end up with a container with three rocks plus sand. 431 00:25:58,125 --> 00:26:00,666 My extension of this is 432 00:26:02,166 --> 00:26:02,708 always 433 00:26:02,708 --> 00:26:05,791 do something, something new, some improvement. 434 00:26:05,791 --> 00:26:07,750 That's the rock. 435 00:26:07,750 --> 00:26:11,166 But at the end of that period that rock is crushed, it's 436 00:26:11,166 --> 00:26:15,000 sand, it's become part of your foundation. 437 00:26:15,083 --> 00:26:18,125 So now, next quarter, new rock. 438 00:26:18,583 --> 00:26:21,458 So the container is getting bigger and bigger and bigger, 439 00:26:21,458 --> 00:26:22,541 meaning the improvement. 440 00:26:22,541 --> 00:26:26,250 And the company is getting better and better and better, in terms of what 441 00:26:26,250 --> 00:26:29,250 you're delivering to your customers or how you're 442 00:26:30,208 --> 00:26:32,958 attracting and retaining employees, 443 00:26:32,958 --> 00:26:35,958 whatever it may be. 444 00:26:36,875 --> 00:26:37,916 So taking 445 00:26:37,916 --> 00:26:40,958 Covey, Stephen Covey's principle of rocks and sand, 446 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:47,208 but realizing at the end of it a rock is done when it's become sand. 447 00:26:47,250 --> 00:26:52,583 So when you've incorporated that and it just happens by every day, 448 00:26:52,791 --> 00:26:55,875 there's nothing, there's nothing special about it, this just get done, 449 00:26:55,958 --> 00:26:59,666 is when you're ready to put another rock into the mix. 450 00:26:59,750 --> 00:27:01,583 And when you no longer notice it, 451 00:27:02,541 --> 00:27:03,458 and then you take 452 00:27:03,458 --> 00:27:06,458 another rock and move to the next step. 453 00:27:06,541 --> 00:27:09,541 And... It's interesting. 454 00:27:10,166 --> 00:27:13,750 I noticed this when you're trying to produce 455 00:27:13,750 --> 00:27:16,916 something that's new, let's stick with the analogy, 456 00:27:16,916 --> 00:27:21,875 a rock you're pushing, pushing, pushing and trying to get people to adopt it. 457 00:27:21,875 --> 00:27:26,041 You're trying to da da da, and it seems like it's never going to stick. 458 00:27:26,458 --> 00:27:29,791 And then all of a sudden, in some meeting somewhere, somebody goes, 459 00:27:30,333 --> 00:27:31,416 We don't do it like that. 460 00:27:31,416 --> 00:27:33,458 We do it like this. 461 00:27:33,458 --> 00:27:37,208 And that's a tipping point where all of a sudden 462 00:27:37,416 --> 00:27:41,666 that rock is now sand and people start saying, We don't do it like that. 463 00:27:41,666 --> 00:27:43,458 We do this. 464 00:27:43,458 --> 00:27:45,833 And it's 465 00:27:45,833 --> 00:27:48,500 you're pushing a rock up the hill and it doesn't seem 466 00:27:48,500 --> 00:27:49,833 like you're ever going to get there. 467 00:27:49,833 --> 00:27:53,166 But all of a sudden when that happens, it's downhill from there. 468 00:27:53,250 --> 00:27:57,458 And it's all good stuff. 469 00:27:57,875 --> 00:28:01,625 Something I want to go back to is this notion of transparency 470 00:28:01,625 --> 00:28:05,791 and accountability, which is probably 471 00:28:07,458 --> 00:28:10,416 pivotal and foundational to Rise and how it works. 472 00:28:10,416 --> 00:28:14,416 Tell us a bit 473 00:28:14,416 --> 00:28:19,583 more about like, the principle of having individual KPIs 474 00:28:19,583 --> 00:28:24,208 and being fully transparent about your work and what does it mean 475 00:28:25,125 --> 00:28:28,125 in day-to-day work. 476 00:28:30,250 --> 00:28:33,250 I think a company should be 477 00:28:33,750 --> 00:28:36,750 as transparent as humanly possible. 478 00:28:37,375 --> 00:28:39,750 So I'm a firm believer 479 00:28:39,750 --> 00:28:43,625 in the concept of a functional accountability chart. 480 00:28:44,666 --> 00:28:47,875 So you have your organizational chart, but you have your functional chart, 481 00:28:48,083 --> 00:28:52,000 which is here are all the roles that we need as a company. 482 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,541 And for these roles to be optimized this is the number 483 00:28:56,541 --> 00:29:00,625 that we think is extremely important to this role. 484 00:29:00,708 --> 00:29:03,291 That's the critical number for this role. 485 00:29:03,291 --> 00:29:06,416 And here is what the mission is for this role. 486 00:29:06,416 --> 00:29:11,500 This is what this role has to achieve as measured by this critical number. 487 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,708 And there may be a few leading and lighting indicators to give you 488 00:29:16,500 --> 00:29:20,833 some more visibility on whatever, whatever that number may be. 489 00:29:21,500 --> 00:29:27,083 So if you are organized enough to know what 490 00:29:27,083 --> 00:29:31,458 your functional accountability chart is, all of those measures that make up it 491 00:29:31,958 --> 00:29:34,916 and they all roll up together to be the CEO's 492 00:29:34,916 --> 00:29:38,625 overall number for the company, it's very easy 493 00:29:38,625 --> 00:29:42,541 to publish a weekly dashboard that is all of those critical numbers. 494 00:29:42,541 --> 00:29:45,916 Here’s the team, here’s some individuals, 495 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,958 and everybody has access to it. 496 00:29:48,958 --> 00:29:52,708 But it also means that in that weekly accounting, 497 00:29:52,708 --> 00:29:57,666 we used to call it scoreboard Thursdays, if your numbers are in the red, 498 00:29:58,250 --> 00:30:02,000 you have to, by end of day, produce a correction 499 00:30:02,416 --> 00:30:05,541 that you're going to be making to put your number into the green 500 00:30:06,041 --> 00:30:07,958 and you're going to commit to a date by when. 501 00:30:09,041 --> 00:30:09,625 So you 502 00:30:09,625 --> 00:30:12,625 may say at the end of the day, I can't. 503 00:30:12,666 --> 00:30:15,666 I need one week to figure this out. 504 00:30:15,750 --> 00:30:16,708 That's fine. 505 00:30:16,708 --> 00:30:20,958 But by the end of the day, you are committing to a date 506 00:30:21,375 --> 00:30:25,791 either by when it will be corrected and the action you're taking, or 507 00:30:27,666 --> 00:30:31,500 the date by when you will have that commitment to be made. 508 00:30:31,500 --> 00:30:34,833 So everybody knows who's doing what, where we're all at, 509 00:30:34,916 --> 00:30:40,375 and somebody may say, Hey, I see you’re in trouble. 510 00:30:40,541 --> 00:30:42,083 I have an idea. 511 00:30:42,083 --> 00:30:44,250 And they can come in to help. 512 00:30:44,250 --> 00:30:47,333 They can support you, they can do whatever, whatever you may need. 513 00:30:48,041 --> 00:30:50,958 So that's very, very difficult for people to do. 514 00:30:50,958 --> 00:30:52,833 Now, on the other side of that, though, is, 515 00:30:52,833 --> 00:30:54,833 you know what all of these functional roles are, 516 00:30:54,833 --> 00:30:57,875 you know the levels of experience that you need for them. 517 00:30:57,958 --> 00:31:02,875 So it's very easy to take those roles and create a compensation ledger 518 00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:07,416 that says, this role, if you're an A player, 519 00:31:07,500 --> 00:31:10,791 plus or minus 20% typically, pays X 520 00:31:10,791 --> 00:31:14,833 and use third party services, pay scale, 521 00:31:14,833 --> 00:31:19,416 whatever you want to use, or a combination of services to actually decide, okay, 522 00:31:19,500 --> 00:31:25,541 I want to pay in the 60th percentile for a company of a thousand people or more. 523 00:31:25,625 --> 00:31:30,833 And the jurisdiction that that I reside in or where I'm using 524 00:31:30,833 --> 00:31:33,958 as my geographic target and you list out 525 00:31:33,958 --> 00:31:36,958 all of those those pay ranges 526 00:31:36,958 --> 00:31:40,208 and you list out what the variable portion of that 527 00:31:40,208 --> 00:31:43,208 as a percentage of the base is for all of those roles. 528 00:31:43,791 --> 00:31:48,333 So it's very easy for people to go, I understand what these functional roles 529 00:31:48,333 --> 00:31:54,208 pay. I understand that my performance in this role is a B, I'm not at the top level 530 00:31:54,208 --> 00:31:57,958 yet, as per the performance review that we talked about earlier 531 00:31:58,583 --> 00:32:03,083 and what it means if I get to that A level in terms of the compensation, 532 00:32:03,083 --> 00:32:07,125 and an A level has to be sustained for at least a couple of quarters. 533 00:32:07,125 --> 00:32:09,500 It can't just be a one-off affair. 534 00:32:10,750 --> 00:32:11,791 So... 535 00:32:11,791 --> 00:32:14,791 And then from a company's perspective 536 00:32:15,125 --> 00:32:18,791 to commit to that compensation, don't break it. 537 00:32:19,500 --> 00:32:25,333 And then share on a monthly basis your financial numbers and use those 538 00:32:25,333 --> 00:32:30,583 financial numbers in that presentation in an all hands meeting to once again say, 539 00:32:31,541 --> 00:32:34,333 say one thing. 540 00:32:34,333 --> 00:32:36,583 Sorry, just give me one second. 541 00:32:36,583 --> 00:32:41,375 Just say one thing that the company, 542 00:32:41,458 --> 00:32:45,750 and typically it's your CFO making this presentation, 543 00:32:45,833 --> 00:32:49,791 and the difficult thing for a CFO is to go, Hey, here's the numbers 544 00:32:50,250 --> 00:32:55,458 and here's the one thing we've got to work on this month to improve these numbers. 545 00:32:55,458 --> 00:32:56,250 And typically you want it 546 00:32:56,250 --> 00:32:59,250 tied to the theme for the quarter that you're going after. 547 00:32:59,708 --> 00:33:02,291 But it's not just a whole bunch of numbers. 548 00:33:02,291 --> 00:33:03,958 It's like this is what it all means. 549 00:33:03,958 --> 00:33:07,375 And this is by doing this, what it means for all of us. 550 00:33:08,083 --> 00:33:11,791 And if you, if you’re smart, I... 551 00:33:11,875 --> 00:33:14,875 Well, ok, in my opinion, if you're smart, 552 00:33:15,083 --> 00:33:19,500 you have a profit sharing component that's paid out monthly to people. 553 00:33:19,583 --> 00:33:24,166 So you're sharing the financial, you're telling them what that impact is on profit 554 00:33:24,166 --> 00:33:28,500 sharing that they're getting that month, and you're giving them an action. 555 00:33:28,750 --> 00:33:30,541 This is what we all need to do 556 00:33:30,541 --> 00:33:34,000 to improve your profit sharing, which improves our financials, 557 00:33:34,041 --> 00:33:36,625 which all ties back to the functional accountability 558 00:33:36,625 --> 00:33:39,083 chart, who owns what and all that kind of stuff. 559 00:33:39,083 --> 00:33:42,875 But this means, and it means all of your work is visible. 560 00:33:42,875 --> 00:33:47,041 It applies all across the board 561 00:33:48,208 --> 00:33:51,208 to have that level of 562 00:33:51,416 --> 00:33:55,083 transparency, corporately, as a leader, 563 00:33:55,625 --> 00:33:58,166 as a contributor, 564 00:33:58,166 --> 00:34:01,166 is really uncomfortable at times, 565 00:34:01,875 --> 00:34:04,875 and it's not for everybody. 566 00:34:06,791 --> 00:34:11,333 So you've read a lot of books and 567 00:34:13,500 --> 00:34:16,500 utilized a lot of frameworks 568 00:34:16,500 --> 00:34:21,541 to build your own flavor of an operating system at Rise. 569 00:34:21,625 --> 00:34:24,625 If you were to take 570 00:34:25,541 --> 00:34:28,541 three or four frameworks 571 00:34:29,083 --> 00:34:32,000 and you wanted to advise 572 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:37,583 people here listening, leaders, and say, 573 00:34:38,166 --> 00:34:43,666 from this framework, I really take that part, 574 00:34:43,750 --> 00:34:47,750 let's say the GWC system from the Entrepreneurial 575 00:34:47,750 --> 00:34:50,916 Operating System or something else from Scaling Up and so on. 576 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,666 Is there like, do you have favorites on what are really 577 00:34:57,625 --> 00:34:58,666 great techniques 578 00:34:58,666 --> 00:35:02,708 that you've read and built on? 579 00:35:02,750 --> 00:35:03,083 Sure. 580 00:35:03,083 --> 00:35:08,416 Shannon Susko, 3HAG. 581 00:35:08,458 --> 00:35:11,916 Topgrading. 582 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,750 Basecamp’s software methodology. 583 00:35:14,750 --> 00:35:18,541 6-week sprints 584 00:35:18,625 --> 00:35:22,958 in a continuous deployment environment. 585 00:35:22,958 --> 00:35:28,041 StoryBrand, Donald Miller. 586 00:35:28,125 --> 00:35:31,500 Radical Candor, Kim Scott. 587 00:35:36,208 --> 00:35:38,375 There's probably a lot more. 588 00:35:38,375 --> 00:35:40,500 I would go with those. 589 00:35:40,500 --> 00:35:43,375 As a great starting point. 590 00:35:43,375 --> 00:35:47,666 What's your favorite, like, your key takeaway from 3HAG 591 00:35:47,750 --> 00:35:52,958 that you started with? 592 00:35:53,041 --> 00:35:54,375 Probably the... 593 00:35:54,375 --> 00:35:59,666 my favorite tool in there is, 594 00:35:59,750 --> 00:36:02,750 well in that... 595 00:36:02,791 --> 00:36:06,000 I like 3HAG a lot but I don't think it does a great job 596 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,000 of giving a framework and I haven't gone back to it. 597 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,000 I know it's being constantly improved. 598 00:36:12,708 --> 00:36:15,333 It doesn't do a great job of identifying the customer. 599 00:36:15,333 --> 00:36:19,166 I think StoryBrand does an amazing job of that. 600 00:36:19,166 --> 00:36:23,833 So really, really dialing in on who your customer is, 601 00:36:23,916 --> 00:36:28,000 and then whaling it down to 3 to 5 attributes 602 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,500 that they are making their buying decision on, 603 00:36:31,583 --> 00:36:34,583 and then mapping scale 1 to 5, 604 00:36:34,833 --> 00:36:40,000 how you do as a company at fulfilling those 3 to 5 attributes, 605 00:36:40,291 --> 00:36:44,875 but then taking a look at your competition and really knowing your competition 606 00:36:45,125 --> 00:36:48,500 and grading how they do at fulfilling that. 607 00:36:48,500 --> 00:36:50,875 You all typically chart it out. 608 00:36:50,875 --> 00:36:55,708 You will typically end up in a grouped line, probably pretty close. 609 00:36:56,500 --> 00:37:01,333 But now you've got to say, Okay, I don't want to be like everyone else. 610 00:37:01,875 --> 00:37:08,125 I want to distinguish myself as being exceptional in some part of this. 611 00:37:08,208 --> 00:37:10,958 Same, same point as do one thing at a time. 612 00:37:10,958 --> 00:37:12,833 You can't just pile on. 613 00:37:12,833 --> 00:37:15,708 If I'm going to be exceptional in something, 614 00:37:15,708 --> 00:37:18,416 what am I going to be unexceptional in? 615 00:37:18,416 --> 00:37:20,625 Cause I can't do... 616 00:37:20,625 --> 00:37:22,375 I can't make everything a 5. 617 00:37:22,375 --> 00:37:25,000 It's just, it's not going to fly. So 618 00:37:25,958 --> 00:37:26,541 I want 619 00:37:26,541 --> 00:37:30,750 to invest in these two attributes to create an incredible amount of 620 00:37:30,750 --> 00:37:35,166 whitespace between me and my competition so that I can't be compared. 621 00:37:35,250 --> 00:37:36,083 That means 622 00:37:36,083 --> 00:37:37,708 maybe I'm going to give up on price, 623 00:37:37,708 --> 00:37:40,458 I'm going to be expensive or whatever it may be. 624 00:37:40,458 --> 00:37:45,666 You figure it out and then mapping out over a three year time horizon 625 00:37:45,666 --> 00:37:50,041 and always have a three year framework that you're moving one quarter to a next. 626 00:37:50,041 --> 00:37:52,625 This is constantly about moving forward. 627 00:37:52,625 --> 00:37:58,583 By quarter what you're investing in or divesting in, in each of these attributes. 628 00:37:58,666 --> 00:37:59,708 And who owns that? 629 00:37:59,708 --> 00:38:03,500 Who on your functional accountability chart is the leader, 630 00:38:03,500 --> 00:38:09,125 is the person accountable for making that deliverable this quarter. 631 00:38:09,208 --> 00:38:14,875 So those are what I call or no, Shannon Susko calls, strategic swimlanes. 632 00:38:14,958 --> 00:38:17,291 And then you have, in your functional company, 633 00:38:17,291 --> 00:38:19,666 you have your functional swimlanes. 634 00:38:19,666 --> 00:38:22,666 What are the improvements by function we need to make? 635 00:38:22,666 --> 00:38:24,625 And then you have your hiring swimlanes. 636 00:38:24,625 --> 00:38:27,125 Who are the roles that we have to bring in? 637 00:38:27,125 --> 00:38:31,666 And you're always looking at this three years of swimlanes and you're 638 00:38:31,666 --> 00:38:37,208 deciding every quarter of what we're doing across these, what's the number one? 639 00:38:37,208 --> 00:38:39,416 What's the theme for this quarter? 640 00:38:39,416 --> 00:38:41,541 What do we got to do? And 641 00:38:43,041 --> 00:38:45,916 we had a really fun way of going about the theme, 642 00:38:45,916 --> 00:38:50,041 or at least I felt it was kind of unique. 643 00:38:50,083 --> 00:38:52,250 We'd establish a theme for the quarter. 644 00:38:52,250 --> 00:38:54,625 We'd set ‘as measured by’. 645 00:38:54,625 --> 00:38:56,750 That's a very common term for us. 646 00:38:56,750 --> 00:39:01,833 It's not just we did this, we are doing this to change a critical number. 647 00:39:02,333 --> 00:39:04,125 It's not a 648 00:39:04,125 --> 00:39:06,458 checklist on a task. 649 00:39:06,458 --> 00:39:10,208 It's, no, we're doing this work because we want to improve this critical number. 650 00:39:10,666 --> 00:39:13,666 So we are going to 651 00:39:14,166 --> 00:39:18,625 deliver this thing, this quarter, as measured by this number. 652 00:39:18,708 --> 00:39:24,000 And if we hit it, if we hit the green target everybody gets 150 bucks. 653 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:25,666 It's not a lot of money. 654 00:39:25,666 --> 00:39:28,041 It's a tiny amount of money. 655 00:39:28,041 --> 00:39:30,333 And if we only get the yellow target, 656 00:39:30,333 --> 00:39:33,375 everybody gets, I can’t remember what it was, 50 bucks. 657 00:39:33,375 --> 00:39:37,041 And if we don't, we're in the red, nobody gets anything. 658 00:39:37,500 --> 00:39:42,666 But to get your reward, you have to spend the money on something fun. 659 00:39:43,791 --> 00:39:45,708 And the only way that you can 660 00:39:45,708 --> 00:39:49,416 claim that money is if you posted a picture 661 00:39:49,583 --> 00:39:53,625 in a Slack channel called the Happy Room of that thing. 662 00:39:54,583 --> 00:39:59,333 So I'm out for a drive-in movie with my family. 663 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,750 I am a Star Wars nut. 664 00:40:02,750 --> 00:40:07,166 I bought a huge Star Wars puzzle or whatever it is. 665 00:40:07,458 --> 00:40:11,500 You didn't have to submit a receipt, you just had to submit a picture. 666 00:40:11,583 --> 00:40:15,833 And that just creates a culture of success and bond and all that kind of stuff. 667 00:40:16,041 --> 00:40:19,041 So it's not, it's not a big amount of money at all. 668 00:40:19,291 --> 00:40:23,625 But it gamifies the whole thing, makes it fun, makes people, 669 00:40:23,625 --> 00:40:26,625 especially in a distributed company, get to know each other. 670 00:40:27,375 --> 00:40:29,458 And it gives you a reason 671 00:40:29,458 --> 00:40:33,875 at every weekly meeting, at every all hands, all of that stuff, 672 00:40:33,958 --> 00:40:39,333 to talk about where you're at with the theme for the quarter. 673 00:40:39,416 --> 00:40:40,250 Amazing. I love it. 674 00:40:40,250 --> 00:40:40,958 No receipt? 675 00:40:40,958 --> 00:40:43,500 Just send us a picture of you doing something? 676 00:40:43,500 --> 00:40:45,791 Just a picture. And no picture, no money. 677 00:40:47,375 --> 00:40:47,500 Yeah. 678 00:40:47,500 --> 00:40:49,500 Love it. 679 00:40:49,500 --> 00:40:52,500 Byron, as we wrap up, 680 00:40:52,583 --> 00:40:56,166 what do you think that we as leaders 681 00:40:56,166 --> 00:41:06,000 need to rethink about culture? 682 00:41:06,083 --> 00:41:10,083 Be systematic in what you're doing, 683 00:41:11,208 --> 00:41:14,208 commit to it, disciplined about it. 684 00:41:14,666 --> 00:41:18,041 And as a leader, you can't be late for a meeting. 685 00:41:18,208 --> 00:41:20,000 You can't miss a deliverable. 686 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,333 If you say this is how we do things 687 00:41:23,541 --> 00:41:26,541 and when we do them and what gets produced from them, 688 00:41:27,583 --> 00:41:30,583 you must always, always, 689 00:41:30,583 --> 00:41:34,125 always show up and deliver what you said you would, 690 00:41:35,083 --> 00:41:38,083 even if that means you don't sleep for a week 691 00:41:38,625 --> 00:41:42,041 because the moment you don't, you just undermine the whole thing. 692 00:41:42,041 --> 00:41:45,291 And just do one thing at a time. 693 00:41:45,291 --> 00:41:47,500 Don't ask people to do anything other than that. 694 00:41:47,500 --> 00:41:51,125 Be smart about what that one thing is and be really systematic 695 00:41:51,125 --> 00:41:54,875 about it. And 696 00:41:55,958 --> 00:41:56,416 I think if 697 00:41:56,416 --> 00:42:00,000 you do all of those things, look after your people, you retain 698 00:42:00,166 --> 00:42:07,041 and attract good people and their domain expertise will grow over time. 699 00:42:07,041 --> 00:42:09,666 And they lead, not you. 700 00:42:09,666 --> 00:42:12,125 So shut up and listen to them. 701 00:42:12,125 --> 00:42:17,833 And it only took you 30 years to arrive to that wisdom, right? 702 00:42:17,875 --> 00:42:21,208 As you mentioned earlier, 25 years oscillating 703 00:42:22,041 --> 00:42:27,333 and five years really accelerating. 704 00:42:27,416 --> 00:42:29,583 Yeah. And 705 00:42:29,583 --> 00:42:31,833 when I'm asked about this, 706 00:42:31,833 --> 00:42:34,833 I say, I spent 25 years going up and down, 707 00:42:35,625 --> 00:42:38,333 five years moving in a straight line. 708 00:42:38,333 --> 00:42:43,833 And when I'm coaching my line is, If you listen to me, you can do it in three. 709 00:42:44,666 --> 00:42:48,333 And if I’d do it again, I would set out to do it in three. 710 00:42:48,333 --> 00:42:53,125 But I would start with the framework. 711 00:42:53,208 --> 00:42:54,250 Super. 712 00:42:54,250 --> 00:43:01,583 Byron, thank you for the wisdom, 713 00:43:01,666 --> 00:43:06,625 distilling these frameworks and books into some really tangible 714 00:43:07,583 --> 00:43:08,625 operating systems and 715 00:43:08,625 --> 00:43:12,666 practices that you practiced at Rise. 716 00:43:12,750 --> 00:43:16,750 I'm going to go back and read 3HAG because it sounds like 717 00:43:16,750 --> 00:43:19,750 a very foundational piece of 718 00:43:20,333 --> 00:43:23,416 structure that maybe will be useful in my new business. 719 00:43:25,458 --> 00:43:27,500 So thank you for being here with us. 720 00:43:27,500 --> 00:43:30,500 And for everyone else, thank you for listening. 721 00:43:31,291 --> 00:43:34,583 Do hit the subscribe button so you don't miss the next few episodes. 722 00:43:35,208 --> 00:43:38,500 Do let us know what you think about the episodes by emailing 723 00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:44,541 rethink@rethinkculture.co, and keep leading. 724 00:43:44,541 --> 00:43:46,458 Ciao. Thank you.