[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. Dan Hammond, I was recently in the UK, as we know, and, um, and gracing your presence. Um, you, you have the shortest reigning chancellor.

[00:00:25] Dan: We did. Was he w were you here during his entire regin? 

[00:00:29] Pia: His entire reign was my two weeks that I was there. I think actually 12 days or something like that. but really interesting because we're going to have a really interesting discussion around psychological safety and attunement today. And I think that, let's just put all politics aside here, but this is about behavior and impact. So just you got an interesting insight

[00:00:51] Dan: I mean, he is very, he was very short lived and I dunno, you know, waddle of hand by the time this comes out, but our Prime Minister's, um, shelf life is also being compared to that of a lettuce. So let's see how that

[00:01:02] Pia: There's a live stream of

[00:01:04] Dan: there is, there is, yeah, The Daily Star, I think has a live stream of a lettuce to see what, which is gonna last longer. So anyway, but um, yeah, so it was fascinating this because I heard a podcast with this politician who knew this, um, chancellor, Kamakwasi Kwarteng as he's called. And he was at Eton and even age 13, if you engaged him in debate, he would say, Don't be ridiculous, don't be ridiculous. He met him decades later as an MP and he was still doing the same thing. He just shut down debate.

[00:01:37] So I thought it was really interesting that where he got to was to do things without engaging with others without the curiosity to hear from others and to have this sort of presumption of sort of prestige and superiority that, that, and having the answers that actually blocked it out, and had a concrete impact on the, on the economy and himself . Obviously. But it just really occurred to me that the things we talk about, it's not just for fun. These things can crash economies if you don't do, do some of these things to engage with other humans to, um, to get the best possible answer.

[00:02:13] Pia: and these people that take the roles are human beings just like us. So he's sitting, I would imagine feeling very sore about how short his rain has been. which might seem ridiculous at some point, but you know, and that must be hard on, on the ego, but there is this part that, Unless you've worked on your own shit, come out. And we are in a much more exposed world today, so, you know, this is so different. We don't, we, if we have this assumption that people are going to defer to our power just because we have a title, it's gonna end badly. It just doesn't, it, it doesn't work Well, 

[00:02:49] I mean, Elon Musk is having a similar situation that, again, that, that, that assumption, that power through wealth gives him a different set of rules. And it doesn't, it will end badly. So, I, I think this is, uh, as you saying, this is a must have, not a need to have today. So it will be really interesting. So who are we talking to today then, give 

[00:03:12] Dan: are talking to stephan Wiedner. And he's a leadership developer. He runs an organization with, um, coaches across the world. They really focus on psychological safety for reasons that we'll hear from Stephan, which are really interesting. But this is a great topic. We've talked about it before, but he brings totally new insights to it, which are just fascinating and useful. So let's go and hear from Stefan now. Yeah, it's great 

[00:03:39] Pia: Stephan, how wonderful to have you on the show. Welcome.

[00:03:42] Stephan: Thank you for having me, Pia and Dan. Really look forward to our conversation today.

[00:03:46] Pia: it's pretty awesomeness cause we are spanning the world between the three of us. So you are based on the West coast in Canada? I'm down here on the east coast in, in Australia. And Dan is in, is in the, in the major Kingdom of Yorkshire.

[00:04:01] Dan: In the center of things. Yeah, 

[00:04:03] Pia: the center of things spanning the world. So I think this is gonna be a, a truly global podcast and I think we've got some fantastic topics to talk about. But first I'm gonna hand you over, of course, to Dan who's going to torture, probe, ask you question.

[00:04:20] Dan: Exactly. So well, let's go into the, um, let's go into the conversation starter card game. I'm actually gonna choose a card at random. Um, and it is, The most selfless thing I do is good chance for a brag here. So, most selfless thing I do.

[00:04:36] Stephan: Well, oh boy, that's tough. I think the most selfless, selfless thing I do on a regular basis is I. In addition to all of my roles in work and at my family, with my family, I am also a volunteer firefighter. And so we have a small little community. Uh, we serve about a thousand homes and we're a committed group of about 20 people. And, uh, every week we're in for training, and then we have pagers and the pager goes off in the middle of the night and we quickly dress ourselves and head to the fire hall and, and address whatever issues arise. So, uh, we're primarily a structure fire department, but we also deal with car accidents because there's a highway that passes through our neighborhood and we deal with, of course, many FR calls. So that's first responder, medical calls, people short of breath or heart attacks or whatever. And um, we also deal with brush fires cuz we are in what I call the Napa Valley of Canada. And so we get all this hot air from California and, and it's quite hot here and there's a lot of fires in the summer, so we're just coming to towards the end of that season, thankfully. And it's, it was a pretty, I would say a favorable fire season. It wasn't terrible, but, uh, that's the selfless act that I guess I perform on a regular basis.

[00:05:59] Pia: Well you get the gold

[00:06:00] Dan: Gold start for

[00:06:01] Pia: I think we'll just end there. Fantastic. That was a lovely podcast.

[00:06:04] Dan: was thinking I hold the door open to people or something. No, that, that is a, that is a winner. Um, uh, and strangely, you are the third firefighter we've had on the podcast in, uh, just, just three and a half seasons, so two volunteer firefighters and a professional firefighters. So we, we obviously have a thing we're attracting the, um, attracting those people. So, you know, great to have you on the show and lovely to hear your selfless act. Thank you Stephan..

[00:06:27] Pia: so take us into your world, Stephan. Tell, tell us a little bit about yourself and, and, um, Yeah, and how you've got to, where you've got to today.

[00:06:34] Stephan: Sure. Well, I started my career. I guess I'm, How far back do you want me to go? I guess I'm gonna go back to my, uh, university days and I went to university and studied, uh, in, in my first year engineering cuz I was good at math and I was good at science and then I was like, Oh gosh, I hate this. I was not motivated at all. So then I switched over into, uh, business and commerce and I really enjoyed all of the organizational behavior courses. So that's where I really lit up, you know, I was excited about that. I was always excited about how organizations produce widgets and, how the, you know, how a group of people can get together and, and create new things and produce new results for the world. And so that's always been my fascination, my interest, uh, and it really took off in those university days. 

[00:07:25] And so ever since then, I've been really keen to learn all about psychology and learn about organizational behavior and industrial organizations, io psych, and um, Here I am. You know, fast forward, I've spent about the last 15 years focusing on building a business that delivers coaching services all over the world. And we have a network of thousands of coaches. And more recently, since about 2019, been focusing on psychological safety.

[00:07:58] Because first, it was really a product of wanting to deliver better coaching services because we wanted to be able to measure the outcomes that the leaders that were going through coaching were producing for their organization. And as I dove into psychological safety, it just, it became its own thing. It's , you know, it's a far bigger area of study than I originally anticipated. I just thought, Well, it's just something nice that we can measure before and after coaching. Turns out there's a lot more there when you start thinking about how do you foster psychological safety? Cuz it's an easy concept to understand. But far more important question to ask is how does one foster psychological safety within their team or their organization,

[00:08:42] Pia: So it's, it is amazing. Steph, what a parallel journey this is to to, to Mr. Hammonds here, who I know was, um, who set up on an illustrious engineering career and then decided perhaps that wasn't for him.

[00:08:57] Dan: Yeah, exactly. I think we've established the intelligence ranking here already because I stuck with it and suffered and you managed to think, Oh no, actually there are other things I could do and other things are interesting, but I do, It was interesting that even we used to do two hours a week, um, of what we call professional engineering studies, which was things around the subject, but there wasn't engineering. And that's where, like you, that's where I discovered, you know, leadership and people and all of those things. But, uh, yeah, you, you were smarter than me and you actually made the switch. 

[00:09:27] But, um, but fascinated to hear that you explored psychological safety as a way to measure outcomes. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Because, you know, we've talked about psychological safety a lot on this show, but that's an interesting angle to start with. Could you just, just unpick that a little bit for us?

[00:09:43] Stephan: Yeah, so, uh, as I mentioned, we were conducting coaching and numerous organizations and every leader that we were working with, by and large was trying to, for example, learn how to delegate better or learn to coach their staff better or have more executive presence or et cetera, You know, fill in the blank. There's a lot of, uh, I guess, behavior goals that one might define for coaching engagements. And then when I came across the literature around psychological safety, namely the book, The Fearless Organization by Amy Edmondson, when I read that book, I just thought, Oh, this is what those leaders are really trying to do. Ultimately, they're all just trying to foster psychological safety, right? They're trying to develop their team. They're trying to encourage their team, grow their team, whatever it is, whatever language was being used, it seemed like the overriding concept was that all of those leaders, if it wasn't explicitly stated, were ultimately trying to foster psychological safety, create an environment where everybody on their team could speak up, share their ideas, be their best at work, feel like they can contribute 100%, and that's ultimately what got me so excited about.

[00:11:03] Dan: so that's, that's fascinating. And what, so in your work, you've got, you run a company, you have lots of coaches yourself and they are coaching, presumably you still see a lot of clients. What are the, what are the barriers to psychological safety that you are seeing now?

[00:11:17] Stephan: Well, the . Area that we're really focusing in on is the interpersonal skills that leaders have to foster psychological safety on a day to day basis. Because when I ask myself, What is psychological safety? How does it work? I think of it as kind of like the sum total of all of these tiny little micro communications that go on throughout the day, whether it's in a meeting, whether it's on Slack or text message or email. All of those forms of communication are building up, um, a set of communications and those are the sort of the smallest micro components that build up psychological safety. So somebody says something, it's interpreted a certain way, that person responds, and ultimately that determines how likely I am to speak up and share my ideas.

[00:12:06] And, uh, Dr. Sson, she shares a story in the hospital setting where an individual, a nurse calls a doctor at two 30 in the morning and says, I'm looking at the charts. It looks like there's the wrong dosage or the wrong medicine being prescribed for this infant. In this case, it was a neonatal, uh, intensive care unit. And the doctor, being annoyed at two 30 in the morning says, I know my work. Don't test me, don't challenge me. Um, don't call me again, kind of thing. You know, reprimands the individual for what it is for the call that they placed at two 30 in the morning. So then what happens the next time they come across a chart that looks similar? Similar. There's an issue, there's an error. Again, it's two in the morning. Are they gonna pick up the phone? Are they likely to pick up that phone and say, I think you got it wrong? No. And this could be a life or death situation. Now, thankfully, I'm not dealing with life or death situations on most days unless I'm firefighting.

[00:13:09] Dan: Yeah. 

[00:13:09] Stephan: which case we're generally showing up and it's someone's worst day, and we have to manage that. But back to the point of fostering psychological safety, it's all of these micro interactions. And so what we're doing is we're really interested in exploring and training leaders and managers in having how to have these conversations in a way that fosters psychological safety. So in a way that everybody feels like they can contribute. And it goes to our definition of psychological safety, which is it's the courage to speak up. So yes, we want people to speak up, and there's a second half to that definition, which is probably even more important, which is the courage to speak up and the confidence to know you'll be heard. So that's the environment you need to create. You need to create an environment that when you get a phone call at two 30 in the morning, You interact with that person in a way that they're gonna call you again if they need to. 

[00:14:06] Pia: I find that so interesting to hear. We, we had a Guest, um, a previous season, Martin Bromley, who actually talked about the situation where, um, the nurses were not able to speak up. Um, and the situation was actually his wife's, um, surgery and that had the worst repercussion because she actually died on the operating table, but exactly that reason. So there wasn't the opportunity. Now he was just an amazing human being that he was able to process his grief and actually work with the National Health Service to really make this a systemic way of working to avoid that happening again. So I think that just illustrates your, that's the, that's the worst scenario.

[00:14:58] But I think these micro moments are so important because what's the level of consciousness that you're seeing amongst leaders about the impact of the way that they behave? Because quite, we used to say back in, You are a little younger than Dan I, you know, Well, that's just the way I am. And that gave you some sort of pretext to sort of, Be an absolute arse if you wanted to be, because that was okay. Um, whereas now luckily we are, we're eating a, a little bit more self-awareness, um, in the way that we're operating. But yeah, so, so what, are you seeing that as a conscious thing, or do you have to help make it conscious?

[00:15:38] Stephan: We have to help make it conscious, and I think that's not just for leaders or managers, it's for everyone. Because psychological safety, what is underpinning psychological safety? What's underpinning someone's reluctance to speak up and what it is, It's, we're all managing our reputations all the time. and we don't speak up for a number of reasons. One might be we don't wanna be oppositional or we don't wanna sound stupid, or you know, fill in the blank. And so what do we do? We say nothing, and many of us are perhaps socialized that way. Maybe we were told when we were young, you know, Shut up. I'll ask for your opinion when I need it, kind of thing. Or we were always just the shy kids sitting in the corner at the back of the class. 

[00:16:24] And so I suspect there are many, many, many occasions where someone is just refraining from speaking up and. Purely out of habit, out of some caution, protecting some sort of subconscious need. And they don't even notice. They don't even realize it. So I think it's rarer that someone's going, Oh, I so wanna speak up, and I just don't feel safe to do so in this environment. That now that that does happen, that is, we definitely see that, but I say more commonly is a situation where folks are just not speaking up because it's habitual. There's a repeated pattern of behavior there. And so that's why it's so critical to be proactive in creating that environment where even those who are most reluctant are willing to share because you set norms and you set behaviors, and you model those behaviors and you applaud those who do share and speak up when it's appropriate.

[00:17:23] Dan: So it sounds like Stephan, for the team leader, let's say, or the leader in these situations, um, or the manager, it it sounds like it's not enough for them just to create space. They, because that might not be moved into by people if they are just feeling like, Oh, you know, I always, I'm always quiet. They have to be proactive in bringing people into that space to say something. Is that right? That it's not just enough to be safe, but actually to invite people in? Would that be fair to say?

[00:17:54] Stephan: Yeah, absolutely. And I think the, one of the ways to do that is to demonstrate active listening. I think we often talk about that you have to be an active listener. Well, what the heck does that mean? Um, I think, no, you know, that's one 

[00:18:07] Pia: the spot. What did

[00:18:08] Stephan: I think that's one of those things where 95% of people will say they're in the top 

[00:18:13] Dan: about 

[00:18:13] Stephan: of, uh, listeners. Right? 

[00:18:15] Dan: right. 

[00:18:16] Stephan: no one's gonna say I'm a bad listener. Um, and yet mathematics will test differently. So, uh. So I think what, what We What we have, our leaders and managers practice is the skill of reflecting back what it is that they're hearing. When people do speak up, it's saying, Oh, I hear you. You're un, and it's not enough to just say, I hear you, or I understand. You need to reflect back what they just said such as, Okay, so I understand there's an issue with the code and you're not gonna be able to finish your project on time. Did I get that right? So being really emphatic about expressing to the other people that you understand them is the critical piece that so often is missed.

[00:19:05] Pia: the other bit I wanted to go back to was, you know, that this, this con level of consciousness, I think we've got an inherent. Deference to power. And I think that's a, that's like a sort of, uh, as you said, a habitual learnt thing. Um, and then we sort of mis badged that as respect . But sometimes I think it's, it's protect protectionist. We're, we're, we're making sure that we're okay in the face of that power. And then the other dynamic that happens is, is that that misplaces the ego of the leader, who then thinks that everyone agrees with them because they're not saying anything. And actually what they've got to do is keep telling everyone what to do and not do the active listening.

[00:19:54] So I, I think this is such an, it's like we're on this precarious balance that if we don't have that awareness, we can tip into. And both sides of the equation are playing their bit, and, and actually in the end, making it a sort of unsafe place to, to offer it.

[00:20:12] Stephan: What we see is that environments that are characterized by low psychological safety often, it's not that people are warring or fighting or screaming at each other. It's the opposite. They're being ultra polite and. Yes, sir. Yes ma'am. Right away, sir. Right away, ma'am kind of, uh, deference and agreement and politeness. And that if you are a leader is a warning sign. It's not. Hey, we're all on the same page here. This is great. It's, that should be a warning sign to you. And that might be, uh, uh, something that you as a leader might want to try to invite into the room. Is that oppositional point? And say, Okay folks, we're all in agreement here. Great. So we should move forward with this project. Before we say yes, I wanna put a T on this. And I want to ask, give me five reasons why this project's going to absolutely fail.

[00:21:06] Pia: So that gives the opportunity, which is, so I think coupled with active listening is also a different style of questioning, isn't it? It's, and again, not a type of questioning that makes people feel unsafe or under pressure, but a type of question that really invites a diverse range of opinions to be heard. Do you think that on the flip side, so when we look at team members, do you think they've got the mu the muscle and the capacity to answer those questions? Or do they, do they still worry that sometimes they're, they're being set up for failure?

[00:21:44] Stephan: Well, I don't know about you, but I go to the gym and, and I'm still not very strong yet, but I'm working on it.

[00:21:52] Pia: Yeah.

[00:21:52] Stephan: And So, you know, the muscle, muscle can be strengthened and at first, if there is a culture or a pervading norm within the team that we don't speak up, it's gonna take some time and it's gonna take some encouragement for folks to develop that muscle to be able to speak up. And one way that I've, uh, seen really great results is by having people, uh, answer questions on their own before coming into a meeting. So you go around the table and now you can say, Okay, I wanna hear what everyone wrote down on these three for these three questions that I've circulated ahead of time. So that gives everybody the opportunity to come in prepared. They're not, they don't feel like they're put on the spot, and then you can just go around the room and give e everybody equal air time to communicate what it is that they wrote down on their piece of.

[00:22:45] Pia: So simple, but so effective. and we all process in different ways.

[00:22:50] Stephan: Yeah. I wanted to address one thing you mentioned earlier, Pia as well, Uh, which is I think around the strategy. So as a leader, yeah, we can use tactics, certain types of questions, and that's a skill that we can practice and learn. I think there's something that comes before that, which is a little bit of a, uh, a, perhaps a more important component, which is the mindset, the, the strategy overall that a leader wants to foster psychological safety. And I invite a new perspective on that. So what we often, I think, as leaders think in our minds is, Okay, I need to get the most out of this team, right? This is my production unit and I get the most out of them. And you operate that way. And perhaps the other way to think about it is to flip it around and say, Okay, what does the team need from me? How do I give the team everything they need so I can get out of the way so that they can produce the optimum results that they need to produce?

[00:23:46] So I think it's just a little bit of a different mindset that. Tends to really work for people because you can see when you're in that mindset of this team needs to perform for me, this is what I need, that um, psychological safety can suddenly become a far less important factor, right?

[00:24:03] Pia: it, that flips, the power dynamic on its head. and I think it starts to get the, the team leader to think. Quite differently. I guess the way that that can then be sort of evolved is what does the team need from us collectively and how do we create that? Because we've still got the dynamic. And we see this quite a lot, you know, in teams that we've got of a team leader and the team members. And there may be a, a different managerial responsibility. There may be different roles, but still the outcome is a collective ownership, isn't it? And that's, when you put your ego down for a second, and then you really think about, as you say, the outcomes of this, it gives much more room for everybody to contribute. Because you're not feeling like you've got to protect your role or how you look.

[00:24:58] It takes a bit of courage, I think, But I certainly am seeing some teams where there's some pretty phenomenal results when they're able to do that. When they're feeling, they feel secure in themselves and safe in themselves that they can do that.

[00:25:13] Stephan: I think you're spot on there, Pia. What we notice is the skill that we train leaders in is we call it reflecting process. So you're talking, we're talking about the team process, and in reflecting process, what you're doing is you're shining a big, bright light on the process. And what that takes is for the leader to be attuned to what's going on in the team, and more importantly, engage in that humility or courage to say something isn't working here. I don't know what it. But I'm just noticing that something ain't right. What can we do to fix this? And as a leader, we often feel like I need to have the answers. If I don't have the answers, that's a problem, but that's not the case. I think we need to have some humility in our leadership to say, You know what folks, I don't think we're gonna hit our deadlines here. It's looking increasingly like we're not going to. What do we need to do differently? How can we approach this in a different way? Because I don't feel like we're working optimally.

[00:26:19] Dan: I was gonna ask you about that. Actually, Stephan, before I was pondering this before we, um, we started recording that, you know, in, um, in the Multipliers book, Liz Wiseman talks about multipliers and there are these diminishing behaviors. And one of the things she did really nicely was talk about accidental diminishes. And I think what that did was said there are, people with good intent accidentally diminish others. What's, what are those good intents, do you think? That we, that it's sort of insidious, isn't it? Because it's the, the third, the the doctor being woken up in the middle of the night being grumpy. And that's sort of not good. But I think many of us have good intent that causes us inadvertently, To create a lack of psychological safety, and I think probably I need to have all the answers is one of them. What else is there that we can be undone by, which are basically good, but we don't realize is having these negative impacts

[00:27:11] Stephan: Well, the pro, the first that comes to mind, probably the most pervasive, is someone asks you a question, you give them the answer.

[00:27:17] Dan: Yeah. 

[00:27:19] Stephan: How, how should I do this? 

[00:27:20] Dan: answer

[00:27:20] Stephan: Well, here's how I did it. A, B, C, D, you know, 1, 2, 3, 4, uh, and so we, we need to hold back, right? Hold back the reins and practice open-ended questions at practice. Just saying, Well, okay, what do you. How might you approach this and coach them through it, as opposed to just giving the answer.

[00:27:41] Dan: Um, Stephan, just take us now into the, into the world of hybrid and remote working, because there's a, in that world, obviously, and obviously a lot of people have worked in that way, but we're in a, we're a new world where that is, that is the norm. And it's, coming back to your sort of micro communications, there's a lot more written communication, a synchronous communication, um, in that, and lots of communications lost. What is needed in this world, just to heighten that, the, the art of this, What, what additional capabilities do leaders in particular have to have and tipper team members as well to build that safety in the, in the groups they're working in?

[00:28:20] Stephan: My short answer is attunement. What we want and need from leaders is to be highly attuned to what's happening in their team. This bring me, brings me back to the very beginning of the pandemic and I reached out to a colleague of mine, uh, who's in l and d learning and development at an organization with about 1500 people, and I asked him, How's it going? How's your team doing? This was, I think 60 days into the pandemic, and he said it's bimodal. I have two types of managers. I have managers when I ask them how your team is doing, they say,

[00:28:57] Dan: um,

[00:28:58] Stephan: uh, I don't know. I I don't know. I'm, I'm stressed to the max, but I, I don't know how they're doing. And then the other were saying I'm stressed to the max and they're stressing me out to the max because they're stressed and they're telling me how stressed they are and they don't know what the future is gonna hold. Is their job at stake? Are they gonna lose their job? Are they gonna go back to the office? What's going, You know, I don't have answers for them, but they're coming to me with all these questions. And so that, I think just illustrates that some folks are, again, I, I'd say maybe complacent with no one's speaking up. so I guess everyone's good. And, and then others. Clearly making an environment where it's okay to express your frustrations and your challenges and your issues that you're facing.

[00:29:44] And, and I think it's particularly relevant now. We're doing a bunch of training where we demonstrate to our leaders, uh, videos of challenging interpersonal moments within a team. And these are all recorded online using, uh, like a Zoom like interface with a bunch of actors. And so this is simulating an online work situation. And it's amazing in these short little clips, 30 seconds, 60 seconds, 90 seconds, how much immune information is being communicated through people's non-verbals and also through their verbals. And it's amazing when you have people respond to those videos cuz we're using software to be able to have individuals record their responses to these stimulus videos. And it's amazing how many people just miss out on all sorts of information that's being communicated. 

[00:30:36] And so that's the first thing that we need to get managers to do, is to really start to pick up on all the information that's being shared. They need to be attuned to their relationship with every single one of their direct reports, as well as all of the individuals within the team. How do all of those pieces fit together? And being proactive with checking in with all of those folks, It really requires a rigorous amount of checking in. I think it's not enough to just be passive and say, Hey folks, my door is open. Come on in. Because those who are reluctant are never gonna knock on your door. 

[00:31:09] Pia: I had a similar experience here in in, in our previous roles working in leadership development. We used to run those simulations with actors and do it on a regular, so you'd see sort of six scenarios, same scenario, and it just never failed to fascinate me how different each one was and how everyone interpreted. So that attunement is the interpretation of data. And we all have blind spots so that attunement gets dumbed down because we're sort of narrowing down on something that we think's important, which is often the outcome and the performance rather. All those little flag flagging moments where they're communicating that they're unhappy or they're body, body communication or nonverbal communication, miss all of those, miss all of that. And it's interesting cause I think even the word attunement is something that is of this decade. Is certainly not something that we've been brought up with. And Dan and I have talked a lot about that. So we're sort of kind of having to catch up.

[00:32:15] Stephan: Well, I think it's not just that it gets missed, it's that often enough it's noticed, but folks don't feel like they have the skills to know what to say or how to approach it. And I think there's also some folks who would rather skip past it because that's gonna get in the way of productivity and speed when in fact, It's the, you know, it's the rock in your shoe, and it's not away. And you know what? It's probably a good idea if you're running a marathon to take your shoe off, take the rock out, then put your shoe back on. Yes, you have to stop. And there's gonna be 28 people that are gonna run past you, 

[00:32:56] Dan: Yeah, but still wise, isn't it? Yeah.

[00:32:59] Stephan: It is. And you'll get to the finish line likely faster by pulling that rock outta your shoe.

[00:33:04] Dan: This atunement is so powerful to me because I think, um, in thinking about what you said earlier, Stefan, about giving people that chance to have an individual voice at the start, uh, you know, we do this as facilitators, right? Get post-it notes, write down your thoughts, and then we're gonna share them. Everyone has a voice, where as soon as we go into a managerial role, for some reason, nope, nope. We're just gonna shout out in a meeting, right? What does everyone think? And the, the workplace has been designed for more extroverted thinkers, hasn't it? People who can quickly think on their feet, they're gonna say things, you create the space, they're gonna jump into it, but it leaves people behind. And that attunement for leaders now has to be so tune attuned to everyone, doesn't it? It's not just I'm attuned to my style and my favorites. It's actually really tuning into the different styles of people and different preferences, um, which is a challenge, but it's, it's the job.

[00:33:55] Stephan: It is the job. It is the job, the we, the language we use to capture that ability to be attuned and respond, as we call it, interpersonal responsiveness. So noticing Interpersonal issues and addressing them productively with curiosity in the moment.

[00:34:13] Dan: I'm sure peers thinking of a simulation that we saw where someone started crying and the other person just kept on going, um, as if it wasn't happening, so it's not, there's a probably low level of, um, interpersonal responsiveness. 

[00:34:26] Pia: Yeah, I, I actually had somebody who got up enduring that, that's, they started crying in the simulation and they actually went and stood by the window and left them crying. This is the actor who's like, and in the debrief they said, Well, that's what you gotta do. If they start crying, let them get on with it and then you can come back and carry on the conversation.

[00:34:48] Dan: once they've stopped,

[00:34:50] Stephan: Interesting strategy. Okay. 

[00:34:52] Pia: yeah. exactly. But I mean, in, in, you know, like all things that was the best learning. and the, there are elements, I think this person was at least honest enough to say how they felt and on it. I think we all leave, but we're just the politeness is that we look like we're there, but we're not. And that's the difference between being attuned. Cuz we're thinking, Oh God, this is awful. I'm feeling really uncomfortable. I wish this would end. But we're somehow smiling and looking like we're there, but we're not

[00:35:19] Dan: I have to say, it sounds like a very, it sounds like a very British thing to do to me. I would just say English anyway. Yeah, definitely. So, Stephan, play us out. We've, it's been such a great conversation, so much there, but how can we boil this down? What would you say to someone who's out there who wants to create safety around psychological safety? What, what are some things they could start doing today or tomorrow, um, differently that's gonna do that?

[00:35:44] Stephan: Well, the first thing we advocate is that attune in peace, right? So don't try to do anything. Don't try to do anything. Instead just notice And what are you trying to notice? You're trying to notice anything that might be a threat to psychological safety. Something someone says, or a way someone reacts to another person or the way and a meeting ends, or maybe it's an email that gets distributed. Just notice how that might affect the psychological safety of one or more people on your team in your work environment. Just tally it up, see what, see what comes up, see what you notice. Throughout a week or two weeks, there'll be all sorts of interesting potential threats. 

[00:36:30] And, and then the next step, if I can , you know, fill in the blank. The next step is just bring curiosity to it. So you're noticing a bunch of things. Oh, I noticed this got said. And does this affect, You know how you show up at work, or is this potentially threatening for you? Just get curious with folks because Maybe it's not. a big deal at.

[00:36:51] Pia: And some cultures are built in different ways. You know, I remember being around, um, quite an aggressive merchant bank. That's how everybody worked. That's why everyone was employed there. They didn't really want curiosity or attunement. They wanted the bullishness of that culture cuz that's what appealed to them and that's how they were managed and led in that situation. Now we might question that, but there's merit in that. If you know what you're putting yourself into and that's what you choose, then that's a con That is a conscious choice, but most of us, most of us don't do that. We're actually looking for a place that actually does feel like it's going to better us, motivate us and make us feel included 

[00:37:37] Stephan: And I think that environment you're talking about, it can be okay. And what I think is required, again for those leaders is to bring that, uh, skill of reflecting process. And cuz what happens when you have guns a blazing, everyone head down. Go, go, go Is you might be following someone right off a cliff, right? And there's no correction. And so how do you bring correction in? How do you bring in that oppositional point of view? If everyone's just heads down, go, go, go, following the leader, well, maybe you're going in the wrong direction, and how do you bring that in? And that's something that you as a leader, I think it's the onus is on you and the responsibilities on you to bring that into the team.

[00:38:20] Pia: and we've, and we've never seen that ever happen to any financial institutions. Have we ever?

[00:38:25] Stephan: Never. No, never was 

[00:38:27] Pia: No. 

[00:38:28] Dan: My God.

[00:38:29] Pia: Waiting 

[00:38:29] Stephan: I know. It's easy for us to talk about it here and yet it's systematic systemically. It happens in really significant ways across the globe. Like this is not an in insignificant issue in my opinion. You know, this is like, it, it highlighting massive global issues that we're all facing every day.

[00:38:48] Pia: But what I really like about how you've explained it to us is it what we are responsible for is the micro moments, and that's what we individually can, That's what I really take out of this. Whether that's in a family system, whether that's in a community system, whether that's in our work system, being attuned to our own impact of our micro moments then means that we've got choice about how we change, adapt, and see what the impact is of those.

[00:39:18] Stephan: Well said. I couldn't have said it more succinctly than that.

[00:39:22] Dan: Well, we'll have to end on that point, I think.

[00:39:27] Stephan: thank you being be my 

[00:39:29] Dan: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. for being on 

[00:39:30] that. So thanks for having you on. Thanks for being on the show, Pier. Thank you,

[00:39:34] Pia: Oh,

[00:39:36] Dan: Stefan, and I have enjoyed, enjoyed having you on the show. No joking aside. Stephan, thank you so much. You've, uh, given us lots of really amazing things and, um, yeah, I'm sure our listeners will be able to take a lot from that. And I love the idea of don't do anything, just start noticing that's, that's very powerful, really great, great place to start. So thank you for being on the show and, uh, all the best with you. All really important work.

[00:40:02] Pia: Look forward to being on your show next week then 

[00:40:05] Dan: Play your cards right, Pierre

[00:40:08] Stephan: Woohoo 

[00:40:12] Dan: So attunement is a word that I learned, uh, from that interview, and I, I just think that's so powerful. I don't think I've ever heard anything quite put the focus, uh, as much as that word does on that ability of us all actually, but certainly leaders and team, team members to. Well, to tune in to different people. Not just to say, I'm, I'm the rock. How close can, how close are you to me and the correct answer? But actually really tune in. I thought that's just a lovely watch word for all of us in this, in this age.

[00:40:46] Pia: Taking that sort of analogy of radio waves, there's no point thinking that, you know, I'm on AM, aren't I clever, and everyone else is on FM, on a completely different wavelength. Um, but I'm the leader and I'm separate. So yeah, that, that attunement is, I think it's what we talked about at the, you know, the lead to this show that, you know, it has terrible consequences if you take that stance and, and it, and it is a really important part.

[00:41:12] What I thought was so powerful about what Stephan talked about was around these micro moments. So this is psychological safety is the outcome, and sometimes we think this is a bit woo woo, but when you boil it down to the specific things that you've got to do, then you think, Oh, we've all got the capacity to be aware of this, to, to, to take action, to listen better, to hold our, hold our opinions for a little bit longer. To, um, to dull the noise that sometimes we're trying to, we're trying to just get something out of our heads because we think we're meant to be answering questions and sometimes we're answering our own questions, which is not very good practice.

[00:41:55] So, yeah, I think that's really, I, I think that's quite exciting. That really offers up a different way of, of working.

[00:42:04] Dan: Really practical. I was thinking about the, you know, the remote working the way we do so much in the written form or maybe in a video or whatever, but asynchronous communication, where a lot of that context is missing. It's really worth just rereading your direct messages or rereading an email to just say, you know, let me in a, with attunement, let me just, Let me just notice what, what's happening here, and I, I just to really check it over just to see whether you are, because a micro moment can, could use some produce, some macro issues if you're not careful. 

[00:42:36] And I really like the way his sort of first watchword was notice. I think it's worth noticing what's happening for us, but noticing what's happening for others. It's just such a nice, sort of, had a really Buddhist feel to it, really. Not the doing, but, but just creating some space to, um, to, to really observe what's happening. 

[00:42:56] But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes and resources at squadify.net, just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. And also, please do give us a rating on your favorite podcast platform. You can also contribute to the show by leaving us a voice note with a question or a comment. Just find the link in the show notes We Not Me is produced Mark Steadman of origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:43:23] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.

[00:43:25]