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Ned: It is slightly more important than some half-marathon

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thing, where I’ll just overheat and then drink beer.

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Chris: I mean, I suppose… yeah, you could do that at the child’s birthday party.

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Ned: Oh… it is at a place called Urban Air.

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I guess they would have beer and maybe treadmills.

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I don’t know.

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Chris: Or it’s like a hipster place that makes mead.

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Ned: No, it’s not.

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There’s no axe throwing.

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It’s a kid’s trampoline park kind of thing.

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Chris: Whoa.

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Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

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Kids on trampolines, throwing axes.

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Ned: [laugh] . That sounds great, doesn’t it?

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Chris: Tell me that is not a happy birthday.

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Ned: Let me tell you, the waiver I had to

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sign for this sucker went on for 36 pages.

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Chris: [laugh]

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.
 Ned: Hello, alleged human, and welcome to the Chaos Lever podcast.

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My name is Ned, and I’m definitely not a robot.

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I’m a real human person who has feelings, dreams, the

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need to sleep every once in a while, possibly while some

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sort of programming tutorial is running in the background.

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Really, isn’t that the best possible white noise?

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With me is Chris, who is also white noise.

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And here [laugh] . What’s up, Chris.

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Chris: It’s amazing.

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I am both white noise and the black hole.

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Ned: [laugh] . Oh, you’re very Michael Jackson in that regard.

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Chris: Moving on as quickly as possible.

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Ned: [laugh] . Yes, I immediately regret it.

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That did not work the way I wanted it to.

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How about a nun falling down the stairs?

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What’s black and white and red all over?

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Chris: Buh-dum-shh.

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What is in that water glass?

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Ned: [laugh] . It’s not water, man.

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Okay, now that I’ve quenched my thirst for water,

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let’s quench my thirst for knowledge about security.

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Chris: Not just about security; about security conferences,

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which is apparently the only thing I talk about anymore.

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Ned: [laugh] . Well, this one’s a little bit different because—

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Chris: It is.

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Ned: You took a different approach this time, one that I have to say

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I’m a little proud of you for doing, like, actually leaving your house.

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Chris: Dude, the complaining that was involved in that effort—

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Ned: Entirely by you.

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Chris: Weeks, upon weeks.

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I went to the Gartner Security and Risk Summit, so you didn’t have to.

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Ned: Unless you did.

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Because you might have.

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Chris: It’s possible.

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There were other people there.

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Ned: Some, from what I hear.

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Chris: But, you know, if you didn’t go, you might want to consider it.

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The TL;DR here is, I was pleasantly surprised

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by how much I enjoyed this conference.

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And based on the conversations I’ve been having, you know, with

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coworkers and people that were there, that’s a pretty common thought.

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This seems like one of the good ones.

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Ned: Okay.

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Chris: So, let’s just start with the positive.

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It was held in National Harbor, Maryland, which I can’t for the life

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of me tell if this is just, like, an area that’s, like, designated,

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is it actually the name of the town, it’s all very confusing.

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But National Harbor, Maryland, is isolated by itself.

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It was like specifically purpose-built for this.

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They have a conference center, they have a lot of restaurants

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right up the street, there’s a casino, and the whole place has

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that distinct feeling of mandatory fun at high, high prices.

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Ned: The kind of prices that only the government can afford.

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Chris: [laugh] . Yes, it is quite close to a lot of government-type things.

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In fact, if you drive there in the right direction,

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you go right past the front gate to the NSA.

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Ned: I’ve been there.

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At least once of my own volition.

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Chris: [laugh] . It’s a weird area, National Harbor.

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I overheard one humble conference-goer refer to it as

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something to the effect of, “This place is crowded as all

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hell, and it smells like pot and body odor,” which, burn.

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Ned: An accurate descriptor of almost any city I’ve been in.

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Chris: Or just, like, a really expensive frat party.

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Ned: [laugh] . Fair.

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Chris: Interestingly though, if you’ve heard of this conference, and

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you’re like, “It’s not in Maryland,” and you’re now confused, don’t be.

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This conference is not only held in one time, in one place.

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There are a multitude of them held worldwide, including Dubai,

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Mumbai, Sydney, the aforementioned Maryland, Tokyo, and London.

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Okay, that’s not as many as I thought, but it’s still more

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than the single conference that RSA puts on every year.

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Ned: I love that you named off these cities.

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Chris: [laugh] . And I pronounced them all correctly.

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I think.

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Ned: And included amongst those cities, titans of—like, these are major

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cities that almost everyone on the planet has heard of is, Maryland.

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Chris: [laugh]

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.
 Ned: We’re in Maryland, which isn’t even spelled like it

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sounds, but we’re here, and at least it’s not Delaware.

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Chris: And this is also not a spelling podcast, which for your case, thank God.

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Ned: Ugh, valid, though I would be even more

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ill-equipped at a pronunciation podcast.

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Chris: Pronunciat-e-own, if you will.

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Ned: [French accent] hon hon hon.

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Listen, we’re not at that conference.

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Chris: Anyway, I think as a direct result of the fact that this

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conference is held so many different times, the conference is way smaller.

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They did not throw out an exact count that I caught, but I

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could have sworn that I heard the number 5000 thrown around.

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Ned: Okay.

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Chris: Which, if accurate—and felt right—that’s a nice

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bump over the 4300 they had over the past two years.

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So, it’s a lot of people, but it’s not a number

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that feels completely overwhelming and crushing.

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Having said that, there were still times where the hallways

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were kind of crowded, and you felt like you couldn’t move

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all that well, which makes this humble conference-goer, think

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they might be [stage whisper] outgrowing National Harbor.

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It’s right on that line of uncomfortability.

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Which is a word.

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Don’t look it up.

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Ned: I never do.

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Chris: So, another thing that’s different: the conference is

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targeted at leaders, primarily CISOs and strategists rather than

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hands-on keyboard engineers, all the way up to people in the C-suite.

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The fanciest-of-pants attendees also got the opportunity to speak

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one-on-one with Gartner analysts about whatever topic they chose.

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So, whether they wanted to do a breakdown of a recent publication,

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whether they wanted to talk in private about a real specific

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use case, whatever they wanted to do, they were able to do it.

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Now unsurprisingly, my pants were not that fancy.

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Y’all are lucky I was wearing pants, is all I’m going to say.

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Ned: Fair.

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Chris: Now.

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I did spend some time at the lobby bar having unofficial one-on-ones

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talking to some analysts and other Gartner employees—Gartnerites?

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Gartnerers?

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Ned: Garteners.

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Chris: Gardeners—and basically found them all insightful and delightful to talk

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to, which of course immediately made me wonder why they let me in the door.

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Ned: It’s fair.

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And I think in the past, you and I have given Gartner, its fair share of lumps

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for always being one step behind in their advice and their observations, and

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charging absolutely ludicrous amounts of money for their reports or membership.

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But we can’t really pin that on the individual analysts.

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Chris: Right.

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Ned: It’s more of an institutional problem.

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Chris: And, probably in comparison to some others,

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they might actually even be reasonably priced.

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I’m not a hundred percent certain, but I think there’s a chance.

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Ned: I do recall Forrester being even more expensive and less useful.

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Chris: So anyway, “What did they actually talk about at this conference,”

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I’m sure you’re frustratedly growling to yourself under your breath.

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I suppose we can talk about that.

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Ned: I mean, we’ve only danced around it for the last ten minutes.

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Chris: But before that, let’s have a deep dive into peanut butter preferences.

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Ned: Ooh, crunchy all the way.

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No questions.

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Chris: Okay, good.

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You can stay on the podcast.

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Ned: Wooo.

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Chris: Because there was in fact, only one right answer.

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Ned: [laugh] . Oh no, I know.

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So, I will caveat and say if you were trying to bait traps, creamy is better.

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Chris: Why would I want to—

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Ned: But that’s because you’re trying to catch vermin.

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So, there’s that.

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Chris: So, what you’re saying is people

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that eat creamy peanut butter are vermin?

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Ned: I did not say that.

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But it didn’t not not [laugh] say that [laugh] . Moving on.

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Chris: Anyway.

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So, the conference was held over three days and included over

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150 sessions, so I’m not going to be able to cover everything.

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And there actually were some technical ones, like, yes, it

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was mostly aimed at leaders, but there was some really into

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the weeds type of stuff, particularly on the expo floor.

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The vendors would do 20-minute sessions, and unfortunately,

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these were not recorded, so even if Gartner does make stuff

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available, those are not going to ever be available to anybody.

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Which is annoying because I saw an awesome one about

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Passwordless by YubiKey that I did not take enough notes on.

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In terms of the formal conference sessions, however, there were

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blessedly only two formal Gartner keynotes—count them: two—

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Ned: One, two.

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Chris: —and then there were three guest keynotes.

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Now, it’s still too many keynotes, but

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it’s way more reasonable than the RSA’s 36.

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If you would like to hear the full summary of the summit from

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Gartner themselves—which hilariously, they published before

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the show started—got links in the [show notes] . Also, the two

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formal keynotes, as well as one random session about strategy

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from the CEOs perspective, are already published on YouTube.

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Also, also, also, if you just can’t get enough Gardner—

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Ned: Who can?

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Chris: They publish, like, 40 podcasts, which is a

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fun fact that I literally only learned yesterday.

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Ned: Huh.

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Chris: And scanning through them, they’re all nicely

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organized, and there’s a lot of episode titles that sound a

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lot like session titles, is all I’m going to say about that.

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Ned: And they’re just giving those away?

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Chris: [laugh] Yeah.

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Yes, they are.

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Ned: Fascinating.

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Chris: So, the main keynote that opened the show had an

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interesting position that I think is worth exploring in depth.

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And that position is this: IT, especially IT security, is

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paranoiacly [sp] focused on a hundred percent perfect performance.

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And that is not helpful, and we need to change that expectation.

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Now, it’s probably not a natural-feeling concept because

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you’re probably asking yourself, isn’t perfection the goal?

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Well, I mean, it is, but it isn’t.

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Think about anything.

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There’s no game, no job, no hobby, no activity at all where

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you can or should expect a hundred percent perfection.

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You’re going to lose a tic-tac-toe every once in a while.

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It happens.

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You didn’t get a hundred percent perfect grades in school, right?

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I mean, obviously Ned didn’t.

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It was a generic question.

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Even your valedictorian missed a question here and there.

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Ned: I was valedictorian.

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Chris: No, you weren’t.

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Ned: I sure was.

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Chris: You were only one of those syllables.

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Ned: [laugh]

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.
 Chris: The comparison that was made at the conference

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in multiple places, not just this keynote, was retail.

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There is no expectation that, in retail, loss prevention

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teams, which do exist and are taken very seriously, there’s

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no expectation that they’re going to stop all losses.

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In fact, they don’t even call them losses, they categorize

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it as inventory shrinkage, which is a delightful term.

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Ned: It is.

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But there’s a reason.

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Chris: Right.

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It is a common and expected measure.

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And these losses are incurred, not just from shoplifting.

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It could be internal theft, external theft, errors in shipping, vendor

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fraud or vendor mistakes, or damaged goods that can’t be sold or returned.

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Ned: Or even mistakes when taking inventory.

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Chris: That’s a good point, too.

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Stuff in retail goes missing.

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It is just the reality of the business, and if you’re thinking,

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well, this is just the dollar store that you’re talking about, no.

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Even the craziest of high-end stores have shrinkage.

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Tiffany’s has losses.

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Ferraris gets stolen.

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Ned: Impressive.

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Chris: It happens.

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So, in terms of tying that back to IT security, the point was twofold.

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First, this causes us as an industry to be way too focused on prevention

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of breaches and not nearly enough on the recovery from breaches.

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The second point was that this obsession is causing people to drive

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themselves crazy with overwork, and brings about—you guessed it—burnout.

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So, let’s take the points in order.

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First off, we’re focused too much on prevention and not enough on recovery.

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And it feels weird that this is a problem because one of the major

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things that we say about security is, “It’s not if you get breached.

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It’s when you get breached.” So, on the one hand, we have

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this recognition that bad things are going to happen.

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On the other, we expect a hundred percent perfection.

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What are we doing?

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Ned: What are we doing?

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Chris: And this [sigh] paradox, dichotomy, whatever you want to

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call it, is doubly true when consistent evidence clearly shows

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companies, including CEOs and boards, are all perfectly willing

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to increase their risk exposure in order to achieve growth.

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You look like you were going to say something, but you might just be gassy.

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Ned: No, I’m thinking about the concept of risk and how it’s just, any large

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corporation, part of what sort of the financial side of the house does is

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assessing risk and determining what are the actual risks involved, whether it’s

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cyberattacks or something else; what is the expected cost of that risk, and

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what is the impact; and then, are we willing to do what needs to do to prevent

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that risk from occurring or are we willing to just accept the risk as is, and

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pay the penalty if we think it’s sufficiently unlikely or not expensive enough?

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Chris: Right.

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Ned: So, it’s more of a financial question than anything else.

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But I don’t think that perspective tends to trickle down to the rank

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and file InfoSec people, and those are the ones who need to get the

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message that a hundred percent perfection is actually not the goal.

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It’s mitigating the risks that are worth mitigating.

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Chris: Right.

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And being prepared to react when something goes wrong.

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Ned: Right.

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There’s a certain group of people who think of it as a

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defeatist attitude to say, “It’s not about if you get breached;

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it’s about when,” and they go, “Well, that’s just defeatism.

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I can prevent everybody,” you know?

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Or, “We should strive for perfection.” And I’m not in that

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camp, but I understand where they’re coming from, where

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you don’t want to just complacently accept mediocrity.

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So, there’s a balanced be struck.

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Chris: Yeah.

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And incidentally, one thing I didn’t have time to talk about, but

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they talked about in-depth is, how do you as a company, actually

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figure out what level of risk you’re comfortable with, you know?

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Designing a risk portfolio, and a risk registry, and all that type of stuff.

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It was an interesting topic that honestly, probably could have its own episode.

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But the point that they’re trying to make in terms of the business

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and how you operate as an IT shop is, you’ve got to focus on

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that recovery, and you’ve got to take it extremely seriously.

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So, this means things, like, actual immutable backups,

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creating and maintaining recovery runbooks, and especially

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DR practice needs to be brought further into the forefront.

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And based on what they talked about, it would

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be, frankly, irresponsible to do otherwise.

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And the other part of this is, that it’s super unfun.

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Ned: Oh, yeah.

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Chris: But it is totally necessary to practice your disaster recovery procedure.

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Everybody always thinks that recovering from an incident is as simple as

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I’ll just follow all the steps in the document, which is how people think.

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Ned: Right.

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Mm-hm.

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Chris: But anybody that’s ever been in a disaster situation,

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of any kind really, knows that it’s not that simple.

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You’re simply not in a state where you’re thinking clearly.

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Even the most basic of tasks is exponentially harder because the

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adrenaline is overwhelming your system, people are yelling, systems

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are slow, and oh, my God, this document hasn’t been updated since 2016.

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Jake?

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Why is Jake’s name in here?

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He doesn’t work here anymore.

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And he’s the one that knows all the passwords?

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These are not things you want to have happen at three

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o’clock in the morning when the systems are all on fire.

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Ned: My favorite was that all of the passwords were stored in a password

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security application that ran in the data center that had gone down.

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Chris: Nice.

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Ned: Sooo [laugh]

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.
 Chris: Facebook had a little incident like that a few years ago, where—

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Ned: They sure did.

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Chris: Couldn’t get into their building because the system

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that controlled the front doors was in the building.

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Ned: Oops.

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Chris: These are the sorts of things you figure out when you practice.

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Ned: Yeah.

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Chris: So yeah, recovery has to be a priority because

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you all know eventually something is going to go wrong.

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And as I wrote in my notes about this point from when I actually

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watched the keynote, quote, “You are going to get breached at

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some point because, math.” And goddammit, I think I nailed it.

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Ned: Ah, yet another thing we have to blame math for.

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Chris: [laugh] . So, pivoting on to point two: burnout.

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This constant obsession with perfection, which we have established

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and agreed is an impossible target, is ruining people, has been

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doing so for years, and we are only now starting to reckon with it.

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It is interesting enough to me that it came up

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at RSA, and now it’s in the keynote at Gartner.

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Obviously, this is a thought.

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And there were, of course, statistics to back it up.

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Gartner—shar—bleh—Gartner sharted?

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No.

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No, no, no, no.

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Ned: Let’s hope not.

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Chris: I mean, they were all wearing dark suits.

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I’m not sure.

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Moving on.

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Gartner shared a statistic that I thought was interesting, and that is

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62% of cyber leaders reported experiencing symptoms of burnout last year,

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quote, “At least once.” And if you know anything about self-reported

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stats is that the actual number there is probably well higher.

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Ned: Agreed, yeah.

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Chris: So, one of the guest keynotes attacked this problem head on.

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First, though, I think it’s worth grabbing a definition.

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Burnout is a specific consequence of occupational stress.

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It’s a work hazard.

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So, it’s not in the DSM, although there is some argument that it should be.

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The World Health Organization defines it as, quote, “A syndrome conceptualized

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as resulting from chronic workplace stress that has not been successfully

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managed, characterized by feelings of energy depletion or exhaustion, increased

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mental distance from one’s job, and reduced professional efficacy.” Unquote.

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It is chronic and repeated stress that depletes your

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mental energy, which energy does not get recharged.

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And what she said was, it’s basically a permanent state of fight or flight.

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It is pernicious and damaging, and you might not recognize it when it’s

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happening at first, and it can take months to properly recover from it.

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Ned: Most people I know that have gone through severe burnout were not

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aware of the severity during the time they were actually getting burned out.

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And they all had a tipping point where they just

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collapsed, emotionally and sometimes even physically,

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and just were not physically capable of doing their job.

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And it was only when they went back and looked at what they’d been

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dealing with over the past, you know, six months, year, whatever, that

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they came to realize the level of burnout they’ve been experiencing.

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And this isn’t the sort of thing where, like, Joe goes on holiday

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for, you know, a week, and now he’s fine, and everything’s cool.

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This is the sort of thing where people just move to a totally

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different industry because they, they can’t do it anymore.

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Chris: Right.

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Ned: People will drop out of InfoSec because they are

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burned out, and that’s not, like, a thing, you can

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take a week off, or even two weeks, and be fine with.

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That’s something that you’re going to have to deal with more holistically.

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Chris: Yes.

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And it’s nice that it’s being talked about at this level

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because frankly, I wasn’t sure that I was hearing correctly.

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Because as I said, they’re talking to leadership,

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and leadership doesn’t often want to hear about it.

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But they shared more stats.

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Do you want to hear more stats?

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Ned: I love stats.

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You know me.

404
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Stats guy, all the way.

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Chris: In the past year, burnout is estimated to have costs the world economy

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$2 trillion in lost productivity, in days off, in inefficiencies, et cetera, and

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burnout related mistakes was a direct contributor to 83% of security breaches.

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Ned: Wow.

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Chris: And a lot of it, I think, comes down to exactly what

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you just said a second ago, which is when people start to

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suffer from burnout, they don’t recognize it right away.

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It becomes the new normal, and that normal means that

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you are now at 90% efficient, and then 80% efficient, and

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then 70% efficient, and then you feel tired all the time.

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And then everything is negative, and you are distancing yourself from your job.

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You are feeling complete sense of hopelessness, a total lack of initiative,

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and just want to get through the week, so you can sleep all weekend.

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And as the nice lady said, you can’t fix that with a fucking pizza party.

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Ned: I hope she said that on stage.

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Chris: She didn’t really say it, but I was reading between the lines.

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I think that’s what she wanted to say.

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Ned: No, I agree.

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And I mean, to compound problems, we have sort of this

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rockstar… mentality, warrior mentality, whatever you want to

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call it, where it’s like, well, yeah, things are tough right

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now, but I’m tough, and I can work through it, you know?

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It’s on me to help save the company.

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Like, that… [sigh] it’s even self-imposed sometimes, but sort of this

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expectation where we laud the people who persevere through adversity without

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reckoning with the fact that they’re probably traumatized at the end.

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Chris: Right.

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I mean, just to make a quick connection, that’s the

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same thing where you valorize people on Instagram

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based on what they post, and not on their actual life.

435
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Like, you have this vision of people that is not correct, not based in reality.

436
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But anyway, back to burnout, in general.

437
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She really did say it can’t be fixed by a field trip or a wellness program.

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Not that field trips aren’t important, and not that, you know, being

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mindful, doing meditation, being careful in mind, about your body.

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And all that is really important, but it’s

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not like a—you can’t take a pill to fix it.

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Ned: Right.

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Chris: And as an industry, it is a huge problem.

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$2 trillion is a lot of dollars.

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It will only be fixed if we fundamentally rethink the way

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that we think about work, the way that we report about

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work, and the things that we make people responsible for.

448
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Now, the session made one more fascinating connection for me.

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I think it is pretty well known, A, that burnout exists, maybe if you

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don’t understand the severity of it, but it’s pretty well known that the

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first thing that goes when you start to feel burned out—I mean, hell,

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even when you start to feel tired—you lose the spark of creativity.

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But here’s the thing.

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IT work is creative in nature.

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Problem-solving is a creative endeavor.

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This is not a factory floor.

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And what is IT if it’s not a series of problems that need to be solved?

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Ned: Right.

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Chris: Now, the session with the guest speaker is not posted on the

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Gartner site, as of time of recording at least, but what I am going

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to include in the [show notes] is a link to the speaker’s previous

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five minute… it’s not even a TED Talk, it’s like a TED summary

463
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that both hits a lot of these points, and also has fun graphics.

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Ned: Ooh, I like those.

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Chris: One quote that came from it that really summed this up was,

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quote, “Productivity has wrapped itself up in our self-worth so much

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that it’s almost impossible to allow ourselves to stop working.”

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Ned: Oh.

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Chris: That’s the problem, and we need to stop that.

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Ned: I feel attacked [laugh]

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.
 Chris: [laugh] . So, that’s the gist of it.

472
00:24:33,900 --> 00:24:34,980
Oh, Bear Grylls was there.

473
00:24:34,980 --> 00:24:36,290
He told us to never give up.

474
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:37,750
Ned: Ugh, fuck that guy.

475
00:24:39,210 --> 00:24:39,899
Chris: Now, he did well.

476
00:24:39,910 --> 00:24:40,830
I mean, he was a good speaker.

477
00:24:40,830 --> 00:24:41,460
I was surprised.

478
00:24:42,110 --> 00:24:43,610
Ned: I actually don’t have anything against him.

479
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:44,070
I just—

480
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:44,660
Chris: You like the—

481
00:24:44,670 --> 00:24:47,639
Ned: —that archetype, I don’t jive with it.

482
00:24:47,679 --> 00:24:49,599
Chris: Would it be better if his name was like Jerome?

483
00:24:50,030 --> 00:24:50,980
Ned: Jerome Grylls?

484
00:24:51,070 --> 00:24:51,470
Chris: Mm-hm.

485
00:24:51,780 --> 00:24:52,420
Ned: Yeah, maybe.

486
00:24:52,559 --> 00:24:52,999
Okay.

487
00:24:53,369 --> 00:24:55,340
Chris: Actually, Jerome Grylls sounds like a YouTube channel.

488
00:24:55,780 --> 00:25:00,380
Ned: I will send him a handcrafted note made from my own

489
00:25:00,380 --> 00:25:04,560
pressed papyrus, explaining to him in grave detail how

490
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,559
he should change his name, so that I will approve of it.

491
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,300
Chris: And really, that’s, I think, the validation he needs in life.

492
00:25:11,969 --> 00:25:13,330
Ned: It’s the validation we all need.

493
00:25:13,490 --> 00:25:16,150
Wouldn’t you feel better if you got, like, a handwritten

494
00:25:16,150 --> 00:25:20,350
letter on hand-pressed papyrus from somebody else?

495
00:25:21,220 --> 00:25:22,510
Chris: I don’t think I’d know the difference.

496
00:25:22,550 --> 00:25:24,470
It just looks like flat oatmeal.

497
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:25,750
Ned: Fine.

498
00:25:26,120 --> 00:25:28,699
There goes your Christmas present, right out the window.

499
00:25:29,549 --> 00:25:31,090
Chris: I hope you at least made it into an airplane.

500
00:25:31,940 --> 00:25:34,100
Okay, what about AI?

501
00:25:34,420 --> 00:25:37,840
Well, AI is a big thing too, as you can imagine.

502
00:25:38,179 --> 00:25:41,770
But I was impressed with how careful, how realistic, and

503
00:25:41,770 --> 00:25:45,740
some would say cynical a lot of the presenters were about AI.

504
00:25:46,010 --> 00:25:46,330
Ned: Good.

505
00:25:47,199 --> 00:25:49,840
Chris: AI, in their perspective, simply put, is

506
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,370
just another tool with just another batch of risk.

507
00:25:53,930 --> 00:25:55,980
No more, no less.

508
00:25:56,740 --> 00:25:59,439
It is not anywhere near the level of taking over the

509
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,109
world that the press releases would have you believe.

510
00:26:02,860 --> 00:26:06,950
Hallucination is a huge problem and a massive risk to the

511
00:26:06,950 --> 00:26:11,500
enterprise, and one that in a lot of these tools has not been solved.

512
00:26:12,210 --> 00:26:15,110
So, talking about our risk registry above, how much

513
00:26:15,110 --> 00:26:17,270
risk are you willing to take around something like that?

514
00:26:17,830 --> 00:26:21,050
Again, it’s different at the enterprise level.

515
00:26:21,410 --> 00:26:26,350
Now, one thing that they did talk about was how AI has been tied into certain

516
00:26:26,370 --> 00:26:31,560
tools that are out there, and something that it really excels at, which is

517
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:37,609
translating a human language statement into a query that is programmatical.

518
00:26:37,650 --> 00:26:40,319
So, for example, a lot of threat-hunting software

519
00:26:40,340 --> 00:26:44,169
out there uses proprietary query languages, like KQL.

520
00:26:45,060 --> 00:26:47,879
There are more; that’s the only one I can think of because it’s the worst one.

521
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:49,480
Ned: It really is.

522
00:26:50,420 --> 00:26:56,630
Chris: So, GenAI tools can take a human language ask and spit out a KQL query.

523
00:26:57,330 --> 00:26:59,560
Now, this use case is really helpful, especially

524
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,050
for people that are already fluent in KQL, right?

525
00:27:02,050 --> 00:27:04,440
And this is not that much different than the way we talked

526
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,970
about Copilot when that first came out all those years ago.

527
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,590
If you know what you’re doing, you can ask it the right

528
00:27:09,590 --> 00:27:13,069
question, and you can also vet what it sends back to you.

529
00:27:13,889 --> 00:27:17,020
But usually you can do that in a matter of seconds, especially when

530
00:27:17,020 --> 00:27:20,730
we’re talking about something as simple as a one or two-line KQL query.

531
00:27:21,350 --> 00:27:22,330
That’s a time saver.

532
00:27:22,740 --> 00:27:23,180
Ned: Totally.

533
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:29,860
Chris: But the point that they made is that base QL system is still necessary.

534
00:27:30,550 --> 00:27:32,790
All AI is doing is an intermediary.

535
00:27:33,450 --> 00:27:37,890
When you ask it to interrogate that data directly, it falls

536
00:27:37,890 --> 00:27:41,660
flat on his face, then it tries to get up and it falls again.

537
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,670
So, that’s where they’re at with that.

538
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:46,720
Ned: Okay.

539
00:27:47,230 --> 00:27:50,959
Chris: They do have something out there called the AI Impact Radar,

540
00:27:51,469 --> 00:27:55,450
which is kind of a—really, it’s a graphic, basically, that helps guide

541
00:27:55,450 --> 00:28:00,020
understanding about where Gardner thinks the various pieces of AI are.

542
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,070
Because there are more than just ChatGPT.

543
00:28:03,070 --> 00:28:04,980
I think there’s 30 of them on there.

544
00:28:05,610 --> 00:28:11,199
And they go out in escalating circles depending on how far Gartner thinks

545
00:28:11,230 --> 00:28:16,050
these various investments are from being valuable or being mainstream.

546
00:28:16,710 --> 00:28:20,190
But if you want the TL;DR, their recommendation is to hold off

547
00:28:20,190 --> 00:28:23,389
on long-range future GenAI technology investments at this time.

548
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,110
Like I said, reasonable.

549
00:28:26,950 --> 00:28:27,430
Ned: Yeah.

550
00:28:27,679 --> 00:28:28,929
Remarkably reasonable.

551
00:28:29,459 --> 00:28:32,390
Chris: [laugh] . So, all right, we’re coming up on time.

552
00:28:32,390 --> 00:28:36,200
A couple of quick hits from some of the other sessions.

553
00:28:36,770 --> 00:28:40,690
One that came up was around security behavior and culture

554
00:28:40,690 --> 00:28:44,529
programs being more meaningful than just awareness.

555
00:28:45,210 --> 00:28:49,070
There’s a lot of evidence that shows that we have reached the rational

556
00:28:49,070 --> 00:28:52,860
limit of the amount of value that we’re going to get out of fake phishing

557
00:28:53,189 --> 00:28:58,360
campaigns, or forcing people to watch a 15-minute webinar once a year.

558
00:28:59,010 --> 00:29:02,529
What you need to do is teach your employees how to act and

559
00:29:02,530 --> 00:29:07,030
respond, not just look out for and be aware that this exists.

560
00:29:08,190 --> 00:29:13,020
Gartner does have a whole setup for this, which they called the PIPE framework.

561
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:18,169
What that stands for, I have absolutely no idea, and I actually couldn’t

562
00:29:18,170 --> 00:29:21,320
find my notes from the session, so that’s all you’re going to get.

563
00:29:22,799 --> 00:29:25,209
I did watch a good one about zero trust.

564
00:29:25,570 --> 00:29:28,790
One of the biggest [laugh] problems that the Gartner people

565
00:29:28,790 --> 00:29:31,770
thought was that they don’t think ‘zero trust’ is a great name.

566
00:29:32,270 --> 00:29:33,080
Ned: Yeah…

567
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:34,209
Chris: It’s catchy.

568
00:29:34,719 --> 00:29:35,679
Ned: It is catchy.

569
00:29:35,910 --> 00:29:37,689
Chris: But it’s not zero trust.

570
00:29:37,719 --> 00:29:41,910
It’s just the right amount of trust, albeit that amount of trust is

571
00:29:41,949 --> 00:29:45,800
pretty effing low, and can change at any time if you decide to be naughty.

572
00:29:46,140 --> 00:29:48,800
Which is a lot of words.

573
00:29:49,190 --> 00:29:52,570
Ned: I like zero trust for what it expresses.

574
00:29:52,580 --> 00:29:56,289
I don’t love how it was slapped on everything for about two years.

575
00:29:57,259 --> 00:29:59,339
Chris: [laugh] . Yeah, I don’t think they liked that either.

576
00:30:00,049 --> 00:30:03,260
There were quantum sessions.

577
00:30:03,770 --> 00:30:05,679
So, there’s a lot of interesting stuff there that I

578
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,629
am, in fact, saving for a future episode, hint, hint.

579
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,429
But if you want the real fast summary, there’s

580
00:30:11,429 --> 00:30:13,110
meaningful stuff going on with quantum.

581
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,310
It’s super serious, but honestly, enterprise-level stuff

582
00:30:16,310 --> 00:30:18,690
is not going to become a serious issue until around 2030.

583
00:30:19,550 --> 00:30:24,580
Which might sound like a lot until you remember that Jurassic Park came out

584
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,300
in 1993, and you don’t even want to do the math on how long ago that was.

585
00:30:29,940 --> 00:30:32,269
But it wasn’t ten minutes ago like I think it is.

586
00:30:33,099 --> 00:30:36,970
Ned: Chris, there’s all these formative albums that

587
00:30:36,970 --> 00:30:40,340
I really enjoyed from the ’90s that are now starting

588
00:30:40,340 --> 00:30:44,569
their 30th anniversary tours, and it just stings, man.

589
00:30:44,980 --> 00:30:46,300
It just [laugh] —it hurts.

590
00:30:46,820 --> 00:30:47,400
Don’t like it.

591
00:30:47,790 --> 00:30:50,659
Chris: No… no, I think I told you, and this is going to be a

592
00:30:50,660 --> 00:30:53,199
reference that only makes sense to people in the Philadelphia area,

593
00:30:53,199 --> 00:30:59,400
I died a little bit inside when I heard Alanis Morissette on 98.1.

594
00:30:59,400 --> 00:30:59,540
Ned: [breathes out] ohhh.

595
00:30:59,610 --> 00:30:59,639
Chris: [laugh]

596
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:00,940
.
 Ned: Hey, thanks for listening or something.

597
00:31:00,940 --> 00:31:03,110
I guess you found it worthwhile enough if you’ve made it

598
00:31:03,179 --> 00:31:05,959
all the way to the end, so congratulations to you, friend.

599
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:07,630
You accomplished something today.

600
00:31:07,670 --> 00:31:11,204
Now, you can sit on the couch, tuned into Alanis Morissette’s

601
00:31:11,359 --> 00:31:14,560
“Jagged Little Pill,” and relax for the rest of the day.

602
00:31:14,860 --> 00:31:15,639
You’ve earned it.

603
00:31:16,090 --> 00:31:18,610
You can find more about this show by visiting our LinkedIn

604
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,399
page, just search ‘Chaos Lever,’ go to the website,

605
00:31:21,399 --> 00:31:26,590
pod.chaoslever.com, or you can leave us feedback and comments,

606
00:31:26,590 --> 00:31:30,729
which we will read during the Tech News of the Week portion.

607
00:31:30,820 --> 00:31:31,820
If you say it’s okay.

608
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,940
Chris: Yeah, if you don’t want us to, we’ll just read it, and that’ll be it.

609
00:31:35,290 --> 00:31:35,760
Ned: Yeah.

610
00:31:35,910 --> 00:31:38,429
Chris: Or if you don’t want us to read it, we can do that too.

611
00:31:38,639 --> 00:31:41,430
Ned: [laugh] . You can just write it and never send it.

612
00:31:41,550 --> 00:31:42,300
It’s up to you.

613
00:31:43,620 --> 00:31:46,369
We’ll be back next week to see what fresh hell is upon us.

614
00:31:46,430 --> 00:31:47,929
Ta-ta for now.

615
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,420
Chris: Seventeen sessions I went to.

616
00:31:57,990 --> 00:31:58,910
Ned: That’s impressive.

617
00:31:59,389 --> 00:32:01,560
Chris: And I remembered so very little.

618
00:32:02,139 --> 00:32:03,310
I did take a lot of notes though.

619
00:32:03,940 --> 00:32:04,899
But then I lost them.

620
00:32:05,170 --> 00:32:06,250
Ned: Less impressive [laugh]