Navneet Kaushal says welcome to the another episode of the agency Insider show where we deep dip into the strategies insights and experience of the digital marketing world's most Innovative mind I'm your host NAIT kosel founder of pace traffic and today I'm absolutely thrilled to have with us a true Titan in the Su industry James Julie he's been voted as one of the most influential Su at the UK entrepreneurship Awards he scaled over 35 million digital assets and built multiple successful businesses in the SEO lead generation and digital real [Music] [Applause] [Music] estate James welcome to the show today and how are you James Dooley says yeah it's a pleasure to have you so yeah I'm looking forward to it Navneet Kaushal says now uh before we uh dive deep into the depth of SE wisdoms I always like to start uh with a question that helps our audience connect with our guest on a more personal level what's something about your journey in digital marketing that's most people don't know about you James Dooley says the people always want to talk about how successful I've been but they probably don't want to talk enough about how many failures that I've had along the way people think that it's an easy ride and it's not um growth is never linear it's always a roller coaster of ups and down so it the the best most successful people are ones who can ride the waves the most or pick himself back up when they get knocked down so they're generally speaking in my opinion from speaking to a lot of different entrepreneurs in the world the most successful ones are the ones who can bounce back and you need to get that bounce back ability from failures and it's actually good to embrace failure because it means you're pushing those boundaries Navneet Kaushal says okay uh let's talk about our our first segment is more about the business office SEO and scaling an agency of course you have a good experience in that just one sec sorry I'll edit it later you know just one second I think uh yeah yeah so I'll repeat uh so uh uh you have been in the SE industry for over a year built multiple businesses and helped thousands of clients but let's rewind a bit how did you get started in SE and what made you stick for it so long James Dooley says so initially um I just knew that I needed an influx of quality inquiries on a daily basis to improve my construction company that I was working for so at that point there I needed a website to be built and then I didn't understand anything to do with search engine optimization so I needed to learn the hard way um which was initially going using different agencies and I'm sure people are watching this now who's probably use some freelance agencies and they kind of overpromise and underd deliver um so what generally starts to happen is you start to then learn certain techniques of what they're doing you find different suppliers um and I've just had to learn via failing quick and understanding every every single algorithm update that comes along whether it's penguin or Panda what you need to do to kind of counteract it and stuff like that so yeah I just knew that for my own business I needed basically inquiries and then when I moved into like say affiliate I needed to make sure I was getting clicks to make sure I can send it through to the affiliate if you do an Ecom and you wanted to sell any products again you just need to know SEO or PPC to know how to get to the top of the search engine so I knew that I needed to learn it's almost like any trade you then got to go in the trenches do a lot of testing see what's working and what might be working today might not be working tomorrow Navneet Kaushal says okay now you have worked in the rank and rent SEO lead gen and performance- Based Services so what's your favorite model for agency owners today James Dooley says so it's it's a difficult question to ask in the fact that it depends how good you are with regards to doing SEO if you're very good at SEO and you know you've got kind of the formula for what's needed on a rinse and repeat basis the rank and rent model can be very good but it's called Rank and rent for a reason right you've got to be able to rank and you've got to be able to rank number one for all you key terms for it really to start making some good money if you can't do that first part correctly and you've just got a sight you're trying to rent out but it's not ranking it won't work for you so for anyone who's starting who isn't confident enough and knowing exactly how to rank maybe working within an SE agency and and learning on on the job with other clients is the best way to go otherwise you're going to L you're going to lose a lot of money by trying to go straight into the rank and rent method affiliate marketing can be great because you can end up getting paid while you sleep you don't having to deal with any clients you're just sending through clicks to products and getting paid on that um Drop Shipping and e-commerce can be very very good as well um you just got to find the right suppliers understand what the trends are of what people want so it doesn't really matter what the monetization model is whichever one you choose you've got to be good at SEO and fundamentally understand how the algorithms work Navneet Kaushal says okay but but I'm sure the affiliate model is taking a little backseat with all the Google updates now James Dooley says yeah but it's different yeah 100% but the the point is if you go and search where a lot of people think that affiliate's dead or I mean I hear every year SEO is dead but where a lot of people say that affiliate marketing is dead if you go and search for best best TVs for students best TVs for this or best head streamers for gardeners and stuff like that they's still affiliate websites that are there it's just the way a lot of people got trained to do Niche affiliate sites and buying links from guest Post Farms that are toxic and not got a lot of trust kind of D diverge and go too far on um topic dilution and stuff like that can you still rank affiliate sites absolutely you can it's just become a lot tougher and I think a lot of people in the Facebook groups and on Twitter of all gone saying oh affiliate is dead and it's like well if affiliate was dead no one would be ranking for those affiliate terms and they are so you've just got to kind of pivot and diverse and see what's working you might need some more brand building some more kind of not just being 100% relying on Google clicks trying to get social media clicks and the more you start to get all that you're triggering nav boost and engagement signals which helps your affiliate site rank Navneet Kaushal says okay now uh many agencies struggling with the scaling what were the biggest challenges you faed when growing your agency and how did you overcome them James Dooley says so I'd say there's a there's a few different struggles first and foremost is getting the right team members so it's hiring so once you've got someone that's good make certain you you're doing enough to keep hold of them um so not having a churn rate of Staff that's coming and going so you've got to build a culture build the team um because SEO is a team sport I mean there's not many solopreneurs out there that can that can rank more multiple websites you need content writers you need link Builders or people doing Outreach you need technical seos maybe a journalist that's doing digital PR um Progressive optimization of content as well so not just writing content and leaving it um there there's lots too that needs to be done if you are doing client work you need like a sales team to be able to speak to the customers so hiring of staff and then keeping that culture to maintain them that they're not leaving but then also rewarding them and training and developing them to not just giving them tasks but give them responsibility and once you give them the responsibility it's up to then your members of staff to improve the systems and processes and Sops because the algorithms do change very very quickly and what might might have worked last week might be some different strategies this week Navneet Kaushal says all right now uh what do you see are the common mistakes agency owners make while trying to escape James Dooley says so they don't have the right Sops in place um so what they'll do is they'll hire staff and they'll think that the staff will just be able to fix their problems but the truth of the matter is you should have some sort of research and development or testing team and and that can be expensive to do that so if you can't afford to do the testing yourself you need to be attending like networking events whether that's like masterminds or conferences and speaking to these other people that are also might have same problems that you have and then be able to like discuss what's working for you what's not working for you they'll say what's working for them and you can find those little knowledge bombs that you can then integrate into your systems and processes that when you employ the members of Staff you've got those systems to be able to scale out so it needs to become a rinse and repeat strategy that you consistently evolve in the Sops but when you've got the staff that just implementing what needs to be done if you don't know how to rank that's the that's the the main thing that they're doing wrong they just following what think works but then no test data they're just going buying a load of guest Post Farms toxic links non-trusted links but because the Dr dr6 they think it's a powerful link and it's not Navneet Kaushal says okay now now you have built a uh one thing that stands about you is your expertise in lead generation now a lot of agency owners strugg with getting high quality leads what's your top strategy for doing lead lead generation today James Dooley says so the main strategy keyword research um or industry research in general so it's about trying to find those longtail keywords that might only get 10 20 30 50 monthly searches but you know the conversion rate on those could be 30 or 40% if you got those clicks so many people Chas search volume that's like 5,000 10,000 searches but the truth of the matter is there might be no buying intent behind those keywords so it's trying to speak to the customers seeing where they make the most money and then trying to find the longtail keywords that can get that conversion rate don't don't go chasing Impressions and clicks go Chas in how many leads that you can generate but what leads con turn to profit because then obviously your clients will spend more the more money they start to make the more they'll spend on on scaling out new websites new niches and stuff like that Navneet Kaushal says right now you have built a performance-based lead gen model can you explain how it works and why agencies should consider it James Dooley says yeah so performance best lead generation is the industry in my opinion um is full of cowboys um and I mean it in the nicest possible way but they don't think about the client first so I'm a customer focused I want my customers to get a guaranteed return on investment so what we've done is We've Ended up completely changing the model to being a performance BAS lead generation strategy where if if the customer is accepted and it's up to us to accept the client if we accept them they will only pay on jobs that they convert so they don't pay anything for SEO they don't pay anything for PPC or Facebook ads or Twitter ads or YouTube ads they don't pay anything for optimizing the website for doing link building they don't even pay anything for the leads that we're generating that only pay on conversion which guarantees them a return return on investment it builds that relationship up really really quickly they're very open then to let them know where they're making the most money and then from there then it can be a reciprocal relationship where both of us it's more of a partnership than it is then seeing them being the employer and us being the the employee and them demanding to us what we need to be doing this forms in line more of a partnership and we say look we know what we can do you've got to tell us where you make your profit let's get this partnership going and if we can both win out of it long term we we have like our churn rate is under 1% now you speak to any any SEO agency or lead generation agency and I reckon within 12 months their T rate will probably be be 40 to 60% something like that where we're under 1% because why would they leave us there's no reason to leave us and the hardest thing you can do in business is get those new clients so if you can keep them then it it allows us to grow we might only need one new client a month and we could see exponential growth by one new a month because we know they're not going to leave us I mean we don't we generate several a day but I'm saying we could where a lot of others need to be winning two three new clients a week because they're losing clients as well and sometimes what's more important is looking at how can you keep the clients as opposed to always chasing new Navneet Kaushal says so so I mean do you guys do do you pick up any client or is there a methodology because you can't uh deliver lead or conversions to every client who walks in James Dooley says um yeah we so like anyone that enquires with us we might get um 70 or 80 new business owners a day that come through to us the wants lead generation um and then from there then we've got like a very stringent vetting process so have they got a professional email so if they've G and got um bigbad James gmail.com I'm like that's not a professional email if they're a landscaping company I want something like James commerciall landscaping.com because it looks professional we'll be checking even things like um their quote template does their quote template look professional would I order from that company so if I wouldn't order from that company there's a good chance that all the leads the customers that we generate for leads for that they wouldn't order so we've got to understand what's their brand look like online in fact if you went and search for James's Commercial Landscaping if I've got loads of one star reviews that's going to affect the conversion of our leads so we want to make certain that everything from what they're doing at present is good sometimes they might have no reviews and they just might be they're not very good at SEO or brand building but we might think do you know what these are a great company and we might work with them and then we might help them grow their brand as well because it's going to improve their conversion rate but generally speaking we we we decline more than we accept because we want to make certain that the customers we work with can convert the leads that we're generating Navneet Kaushal says right now uh White Label SEO is a huge opportunity for agencies what's your advice on pitching wh label SEO services to other agencies James Dooley says yeah I mean if if you can do it at a rate where that agency can use your your you as being a white label then obviously yes it's it's a great model to do because these SEO agencies might have hundreds of clients but they just need someone to do the Fulfillment but again it kind of comes back down to are you good at doing the Fulfillment and if you are good at doing the Fulfillment then white label SEO is brilliant the only issue like if he was in a western country like the UK or the US it's very difficult to do white label because staff is expensive but if he was in India or Bangladesh or the Philippines or Venezuela or South Africa then white label SEO is great because what you can do is ch maybe 15 cents to create a citation and and the white label like the Western company that's selling it might be able to sell it for a dollar each and there's a good margin there so both parties can win it's just seeing whether white label SE agencies have got small profit margins but it's more volume of work Navneet Kaushal says right it's a volume business right James Dooley says yeah exactly yeah Navneet Kaushal says now how do you convince agencies that Outsourcing SEO is actually as smart business move is it just giving them an example like a do to or 15 cent or are they other ways as well James Dooley says so the way I always say it one one of my classic kind of sales pitches that I normally mention in a lot of podcasts would be if you built an extension on your house would you build that extension yourself or would you get a brick layer to come and build you the wall would you get a roofer to come and do the roofing the point is a lot of these business owners they try and do everything and they're not a roofer like if you need the roof being done go and hire a roofer because they do it day in day out they are brilliant at what they do I'm not going to try and do the roofing myself if I need a new shower being fitted I'm going to go and get a plumber if I need some new electrics and cables being installed I'm going to get an electrician so the truth of the matter is it should be a very simple cell that a dental practice is brilliant at fixing people's teeth but it doesn't mean they understand technical SEO content um within content you've got like entities semantic triples you've got causal Clauses you've got so many things within semantico that they don't know all of that so don't try and be someone that you're not get more inquiries for for for fixing people's teeth or teeth whitening or whatever it is that you do but go and hire an SEO agency to be able to do what they're good at which is optimizing your website for search engines so it should be a no-brain it should be a very simple sell to a business owner to say look why would you want to do it yourself you're going to it's going to you're going to spend time you're going to spend money and you're probably not going to do it correctly Navneet Kaushal says right now if you had to start an Su agency from scratch today how would you go about lending your first 10 clients James Dooley says so I would go I wouldn't say I wouldn't do this but the classic case of I'd go knocking on a lot of people's doors right so what I mean by that is I would want to turn around I would sit down and if my sales team can't do this there's no point in having by it should be very easy especially nowadays with AI to go and Outreach to 300 people on LinkedIn to go and do hundred tweets to going go into Facebook groups like The SEO group or many other groups and just basically tell someone does anyone want a free technical audit does anyone want um a free backlink audit right and what you can do is you can go and offer for a free te technical audit it'll take you five minutes on screaming frog to go and get some 404 and 301 hours send it through to that business owner they're happy that you've just done it completely for free and then they might say can you help fix these problems and then next minut you just W on a client and then from there you can upsell oh by the way your content's not very good oh very well your internal linking Is Not Great oh by the way um let let's do a server log analysis and where what part of the site's not being crawled you you're lacking in back links to this part of the site so it's it's hard to go and win your first few clients but you've just got you the classic saying is you can't win a raffle if you don't buy a raffle ticket you've got to go and buy as many raffle tickets as you can the more raffle tickets you have the more chance you have of winning the raffle so go if you're going Outreach into 50 people a day why not do 100 why not do 150 why not do 200 the the more people you reach out to the more doors you're open if you win a client they might refer you to another client and Word of Mouth then might start growing but people just not willing to put the hard work in and they think it's easier and it's not you just got to go out and do the hard work Navneet Kaushal says now uh and now for agencies looking to this was for agencies uh who are just starting out now for agencies who are looking to scale their client acquisition say from now 10 clients to 50 what advice would you give or will it be a same advice James Dooley says no so I mean once you've started to get the clients in after that a lot of it then starts to come down to case studies and testimonials You' got to shout and scream about what you do and how great that you are because you know what nobody else will right so you've got to show how brilliant that you are any awards that you've won you want to shout and scream about any case studies where you've done a good job you want to shout and scream about um if you've got um even better if you've got a case study that's working well and you can get the client to leave you a testimonial then then great and then bit by bit the more more great work what you do the more Awards you'll win the more events you can attend because you're earning more money um as you're earning more money you can jump on podcasts like this which might open it up to a wider audience you just got to be on the channel on the present shout and scream about your results of what you doing um have a great offer so have a hook that's a great offer to get somebody in and then be able to do those upsells Navneet Kaushal says okay uh local businesses versus National businesses what would you prefer for an agency to go after first James Dooley says I'd say go after everything um if you good to SEO you can you can rank in local local is easier to rank for but lower search volume but if you are good at ranking then why not go after the national clients as well if you're not good then star in local just go after the easy to rank for keywords like um let's say you you was in the plumbing Market let's say Plumbing in Manchester right or Plumbing in a local area but then in time you might go after just like UK plumbers and go after all the areas in the UK um go after the longer tale keywords if you're not great to start with um because they're easier to rank for um it's like CC car talked about like the Avalanche approach or working through your traffic tiers so start with easy to rank for keywords and then build yourself up and keep building it up and stuff like that but there's no reason if you're good why you can't get both local or national Navneet Kaushal says okay and one big question agency owners face is whether to build an in-house team or Outsource via let's say for example white label SE how should an agency owner decide between the two James Dooley says so it depends on how good they are at recruiting and building that culture maintaining the staff um there's an argument for both so there's not I don't think there's a one-size fix all saying Freelancers are better than in-house or in-house are better than Freelancers I know a lot of people that have just got Freelancers and got only like a few members of staff and they're doing a million a month in profit but I also know people that have got large teams and they can do all the quality control and everything else they are not relying on any Freelancers who can let them down and they're also doing a million a month so you can either way you can have it that both can win it's just what suits your lifestyle better and your business model better for me we use both so like I want my a player to be in house I want to train them up with everything that they need to know and then I want each a player to have 10 virtual assistants like Freelancers that's working underneath them so if I've got like 14 in-house staff and each of them have got 10 vas that's 140 staff right that's more than enough to rank for nearly any any industry there is in the world as long as you're good at what you do and then from there then on top of that you can be using freelance um digital PR agencies link building agencies technical SEO agencies you can do stuff like by you mentioned Alex drew before so you can use age demands to Kickstart your websites to be a lot faster there's so many different things of what you can do to give yourself a head start or just know know what a good link and a bad link looks like know what good quality content looks like and just make certain that you're ticking all the boxes and doing it correctly so you're getting longterm rankings Navneet Kaushal says right now you're Rank and rent model has been become somewhat legendary in SEO circles for those unfamiliar could you explain this model and how you developed it James Dooley says yes for sure so a ranking rent website is a website that ranks for keywords that specifically a customer or contractor might want the inquiries that's generating from that website they're brilliant AR rof is brilliant at Roofing so they're not very good at doing SEO for their own website in my opinion the reason why we went there in the rank and rent model was because I don't like client SEO and the reason why I don't like client SEO is because if I'm working on their website and they like the design of it but I don't think the Design's good for conversion weate optimization I've no got to argue with the business owner about why I'm going to change the site how I'm going to change the site come up with a big design where realistically I don't want to be a designer what I want to do is I want to split test what buttons work the best what color buttons work the best what text around the buttons work the best and I don't want have to keep having to get that signed off by the client so with regards to B links the the client might be um heard some blackout techniques that he wants to use or he might be very white out saying you can't do link building I just want to get a website do it my way because I know my way works not having to explain what I'm doing and just be able then to give the contract to the Le needs what they want where they can make and earn some good money from and we split the profits so they're not I'm not having to explain everything what I'm doing of why I'm doing it and how I'm doing it and what frequency I'm doing it at I don't need to explain that a business owner cares about one thing and that's return on investment and that's what I'm going to talk to him about the rest of it he doesn't need to know about Navneet Kaushal says okay and and what challenges did you face when scaling it to over I think 600 website right James Dooley says yes so obiously there's lots and lots of challenges um of doing it so it's hard to get um real businesses um sorry real addresses for a lot of the sites and having an address and a telephone number and stuff are big trust signals especially in local SEO um so we've we form Partnerships with these companies that are real genuine businesses that we then might be able to use their addresses their telephone numbers and stuff like that so they was they've always been challenges um making these websites look real and legit making certain that we're initially being able to speak to the client saying can we use some of your testimonials and case studies because if if I go and set like an exact match domain up for commerciall landscaping.com are for James's Commercial Landscaping I might not be able to use them on this website because it might be that like for another brand for another website so there's lots of there's lots of pitfalls there's lots of like issues along the way of what you need to try to do but it's building up the brand building up the trust building up the power that people can trust that site to want to inquire to say yes this is what I want and they're going to inquire with that company when you've not got a legitimate business or brand behind it the conversion rate drops even if you're ranking high if they don't think that you look trustworthy they're not going to inquire with your brand so it's trying to get all the trust signals in place that essential customer and people who's clicking on site will convert Navneet Kaushal says right now I've noticed that you transition from being primarily an SEO practitioner to become a mentor speaker and a investor now what drove this evolution in your career and how has your perspective on the industry changed James Dooley says yeah so I mean what starts to happen when you start speaking to quite a lot of successful entrepreneurs they start to want to give back to the community Community that's helped them um throughout their Journey um a lot of them become philanthropists where they want to give back do charity work or do certain things I'm at a point now in my life where I probably well I don't need to work another day in my life and I can have whatever is the most expensive meal on the menu for breakfast dinner and lunch and so can my kids for the rest of their life but that doesn't motivate me what motivates me is Success growth Innovation every day is a school day wanting to Tech things on to the next level so not only is it about how well that I do I want to make certain that my business partners are all looked after and that they can learn and I want to make certain that my staff and my employees that they might set up their own brands in five years time 10 years time and then might flop the nest and do their own things and I want them to do brilliantly and now I want to give back to people that have helped me but I also want to give back to suppliers that have helped me if they've got any customers that need help I'm I'm here to try and help as many other people as I can for them to do well and sometimes like there's certain people in life that when it's Christmas day they might prefer to receive a gift and open it up and like oh what's in there but I prefer giving gifts I prefer giving it and seeing let's say my son and my daughter open up the gift and then being really happy I'm I prefer giving than receiving so that's just might just be I'm not certain if everyone's like that but that's the way I'm like and I get more of a kick out of given and I think at times yes I can build out a load more sites yes I can earn a load more money but at times I want to help others that they don't go through as many failures as what I did along the way for the first seven or eight years it was tough very very tough I was in debt I was struggling to get like things to work well like I didn't come from a background of money I didn't have money from my mom and my mom and dad passed me down a load of money and I was just able to make it work like I was doing it on my credit card I was having to get it to work and if it didn't work I was going reaching out to two 200 300 people every single day to try and find those long Tales to try to get to earn some money which allowed me to reinvest so it's tough It's hard I want people to understand that but a lot of people that want to grow need to understand they've got to roll up the sleeves and they've got to put that work in and yes it might mean that we got to sacrifice a few things for a few years they might want to have this big holiday and they might say instead of going on the big holiday reinvest back into more websites instead of like having a nice fancy car put it back into growing and building the business up more and too many people want nice luxury things and then they start moaning when someone is super successful going oh I wish I was like them well you talk the talk but you're not willing to sacrifice what you need to sacrifice to get there and the classic like like the Rich Dad Poor Dad scenario start getting yourself some assets stop stop acquiring liabilities stop acquiring nice fancy cars bit having nice big like expensive clothes and stuff like that put it back in the business grow it and in three four five years time there's a classic Bill Gates saying people massively overestimate what can be done in one year but underestimate what can be done in 10 years and in 10 years if you had a 10-year plan you can retire in anybody who in the hard work and reti in 10 years if they are willing to put some certain sacrifices in you still want to be a good parent you still want to see your friends and your family and do nice things but you need to sacrifice certain things to get there and once you do it like you'll see exponential growth Navneet Kaushal says that that that is very true I mean myself been in this business for almost 23 years so I know we I also don't come from a rich family so we all are first uh first generation and entrepreneur I would say that way and we all have and we all have worked our asses off so it's people people like yourself like I would my one of my biggest concerns at present is that I don't want to bring up my kids to be spoiled like I came from a rough upbringing where it's made me resilient It's Made Me disciplined it's made me turn up every single day and you know what that they're the best attributes that any human being can have because then they start to make their own money and start to do their own things I don't want to pass my kids don't any fish I want to teach them how to fish and if they can learn it their own way which is VI resilience and hard work that's the best thing and like you said there first first generation wealth it's so important not being passed down money and that's one of my biggest concerns at present is making certain that my kids are going to put that hard work in themselves James Dooley says right Navneet Kaushal says right but I I myself don't want my kids to be spoiled I don't want them to know it's a comfortable life because yeah we we know that's not how the world is going to be out there you have to put your hours in and trust me I'm on all on with it what you are saying I get it yeah James Dooley says right Navneet Kaushal says now uh you mentioned in some previous interviews that maintaining trust and integrity is crucial in the Su business now could you share a situation where your integrity was tested and how did you handle it James Dooley says yeah for sure so um my my vision statement in life is every should be done with honest trust and integrity so I know that any one of my clients and I'm confident that any one of my clients can not turn around saying that I've scammed him in any way shape or fault I know that so when I know that I'm happy to be challenged on anything right so there's been times where I've had other seos or other lead generation companies saying you cannot guarantee a company a return on investment yes I can and they go no you can't that's impossible I'm like no because the only pay when they win the job when they do the job and they've been paid for the job they could win a job and not get paid from the client and I don't get paid even though they won the job so this is a very different business model so when people start to say I can't guarantee return on investment I can't the issue is there's a lot of people in the industry that tries to guarantee a return on investment for doing SEO that cannot be guaranteed because algorithm updates can come along and who knows what profit that they're making but my model I can guarantee a return on investment so I've been challenged a lot on that you can't guarantee Roi I'm like I can because I'm taking 100% of the risks and because of that I can guarantee my clients a return on investment so there's always been times where people have tried to challenge me which I absolutely love by the way I love being challenged and I think everyone should not like get the backup and feel like someone's having a good you I want to be challenged every single day I want to be a better version of myself today than what I was yesterday so I'm all for it it's just yeah I mean honest trust and integrity if you can go to bed at night knowing that you can sleep that you've not scam someone life is so much of a better place and just try to provide value for your clients Navneet Kaushal says you are right I I I'm a firm believer of Integrity I mean there are times when uh I find my Integrity being question and I have actually gone ahead and fired the clients because I don't want to my Integrity to be questioned at the end of the day if I sleep it should be like I can sleep that what you said I have not scammed anybody in my life and I can have my heads up yeah James Dooley says perfect Navneet Kaushal says yes now uh let's move to the second segment of our uh show which is the current state of se you know how things are and we're going to talk about a little bit about this now SEO has evolved massively and they're always something new from your experience what are the biggest Shi shift happening in Su right now that agency owners needs to be aware of James Dooley says I'd say the biggest shift is user signals um everyone obsesses over content and links where what people need to start doing instead of fighting against Google and being annoyed with how Google's doing their updates um they need to start looking at how can they make it as cheapest possible for Google to crawl and index your website so Technic making certain that it's fast technically making certain that you've not got lots of pages that gets no Impressions so people are obsessed with topical Authority and the truth of the matter is 95% of people don't even understand what topical Authority is and what I mean by that is that they think that topical coverage is topical Authority and that's not the case so by covering all different articles on a subject doesn't mean you've got topical Authority it means you've got topical coverage but topical author it is topical coverage plus user signals now if all these Pages you're creating get no social signals no back links and have no Impressions or clicks that's actually detrimental to your website you're going too wide you've got to then try to start making certain that every article on your site is getting some form of historical data being built up and if you're not you're just wasting Google's craw buget yet so you've got to improve the content improve the internal linking improve the amount of external links coming through to the website and then the user signals like can you build up a Twitter following an Instagram following a Facebook following can you be sharing um your your new article that you've done on all those platforms can you be sharing the images on places like Flicker and Pinterest to get traffic back to your website can you be putting a video on YouTube and ranking that video which might link back through to your website so you've got to be trying to be on the channel on the present have diversification of traffic and building a brand and that's what a lot of affiliate sites didn't do they just became obsessed with writing best TVs best head scammers best lawnmowers best gaming chairs with no brand presence they had no branded searches they had no social media presence and you know what and know a lot of people won't like me saying it a lot of them deserve to get hit because all what they did was use AI content and I what they did was go and put a top 10 list of the best gaming chairs and guess what was number one the one that paid the most commission they had no research behind it they just looked at it going I'm going to put the number one result here these pay 30% in affiliate commission so I'm going to put them number one and it might not have been the best gameing yet and then number two was the second highest affiliate commission and you know what it wasn't good for the users and that's why people started to go to Reddit because Reddit had different people's opinions and they could have arguments and stuff like that and people preferred to have different people's of opinions than one person that just wrote it using AI that didn't put really any thought process into it apart from what paid them the most money and wasn't what's best for the user so you've got to think outside the box you've got to be doing a lot more than what a lot of these other Affiliates are doing and maybe these Affiliates just need to become more of an expert on a single topic so making certain that they are like the lawn mower experts instead of doing all G all of gardening just do just lawnmowers and just give like maybe you start you even if you can't afford it Go and rent that law Mower and use it and get a video of them using it showing them how you kind of your gauges of different depths show them how you change the different gauges show them the how powerful the blade is and stuff like that give that extra value if you can and if you're not willing to do it somebody else is willing to do it and therefore they deserve to outrank you um so you've just got to think bigger and actually start building Brands and getting diversification of traffic and I know that a lot of people won't like hearing that because they want to cut Corners they want to just build a website very quickly and build a load of guest post to it and that used to work it now no longer works you've got to if you want to stay in the game you've got to shift and you've got to start improving the quality threshold of what everybody is d Navneet Kaushal says right also now many SE experts are debating that diminishing returns of traditional SEO tactics do you believe fundamental SEO principles are changing or are we just seeing more sophistication in how they are applied James Dooley says just a quality threat it's the same algorithm as what's out there all that they've done is just ramped up quality control so content needs to be better um if someone doesn't understand properly what a semantic triple is right they don't deserve to rank because that's now how the knowledge graph is being used apart from in local where it is still word based it is still placing words in certain places on the page but generally speaking you want to feed that Knowledge Graph and the way you feed the knowledge graph of Google is by your semantic triples so he getting this it's getting the subject the predicate and the object the subject verb verb and object in the correct sentence format not having much fluff in there getting the right entity is being put on the page but in the correct sentence format it's about when you're showing up for quees is your page matching the intent of the query and answering what they want and if it is then great if it's not then make certain that it is otherwise you shouldn't be showing up for those queries and you're going to start getting bounce or or like what's called short clicks within nav boost and you need to try to be getting the longer clicks more more the the longer clicks the more pages visited the better dwell time the the less pogo sticking that's happening on your website the more you're going to start ranking nav boost now has become probably the number one ranking Factor you want to be making certain that you're looking at everything related to your user signals CT dwell time Pages visit Pages visited like so many affiliate sites they're clicking onto it within 10 seconds they're clicking off and they're not like the dwell time's not very good and they're not end in the like they no Google's no realizing they're going here and going to there can I not just send them here directly and a lot of the time they're now trying to send them directly there and missing out the affiliate part whether you like it or not it's probably better for the user so like are they making it are they making the algorithms better A Lot of times yes I actually believe that they are a lot of seos don't think that way because they genuinely just want to earn more money by doing SEO techniques yes attribution of clicks is a lot less but they they do the research they know what needs to be done if you don't like it go start ranking on Bingo or on YouTube or on Reddit do you know what I mean like you've got your playing on their playing field you've got to do what they want and you've got to abide by their rules and and do what's winning in today's algorithm and yes it is very different to what used to work in the fact that you need to understand Trust on links have low toxicity on links and good quality content and then understand that topical coverage isn't topical Authority and then trying to build up branding elsewhere if you can building it up to get traffic diversity coming into your website Navneet Kaushal says yeah you talk about uh dwell time and of course click rate so what is your take on as uh CTR manipulation James Dooley says CTR manipulation works very well um so that's the short answer the long answer is a lot of people do it and they try and cut corners and they use rotating proxies which are spammed and blacklisted and that doesn't work very well so you've got to understand a lot of things to do with selenium um web RTC headless browsers so what tools are not being detected as being fake by Google and you've got to make certain you're getting good quality logged in users that's doing the clicks not just every single click coming through to the site is a non-logged in user that's using a blacklisted IP and then saying that CTR doesn't work that's like saying link building doesn't work link building works better than ever if you're getting trusted low toxic and Powerful relevant links that might drive traffic they work unbelievably well if you're going doing GSA directly to a money site then it doesn't work very well so it's about understanding that good quality links work well toxic links don't work very well but then you can't then say links don't work they do work if Done Right CTR works very well if done correctly try and manipulate it and doing GSA direct how it doesn't work like trying to do clicks doesn't work so yes CTR works very well um there's lots of different platforms out TTI works very well for like um Google Business profiles and gmbs and doing driving directions and all that that all works great um you want as much engagement from as many different places as you can Navneet Kaushal says right now uh you work with businesses of various sizes what difference Do You observe in Su strategy Effectiveness between an Enterprise level business versus small to medium businesses James Dooley says so Enterprise larger businesses generally speaking are a lot better to work with and the main reason why they're a lot better to work with is they understand the shortterm fixes are not going to fix your rankings so many many people come along as an SEO agency and they think they can get like results within three months nowadays A Lot of the work that you do might not be being seen and might not be rewarded until the next big algorithm update it's not a lot of time it's not real time right it's generally speaking on algorithm updates so you might have to work really really hard for six months see no progression but it could be a hockey stick approach where no progression no progression in six months time all the hard work you did for those previous six months htic exponential growth as the algorithm update comes along and longer term like big clients understand this is a long-term investment the a lot of the smaller kind of agencies or a lot of smaller companies they want to see results tomorrow and it's so difficult to unless you're doing blackout techniques which can give you instant results but not long-term results they need to understand that SEO is a long term investment that you need to be doing it's not PPC where you can generate leads today it's a long-term investment and that's what bigger companies understand and they understand when they're putting the marketing budget in place they might base that on 18 months they might give you an 18month contract where a lot of the smaller ones might want a roll in contracts or a three-month contract and the truth of the matter is in three months you can't fix a lot of problems that might be wrong with the site Navneet Kaushal says all right now you also spoke about indexing and uh you mentioned of course a lot of time your site doesn't even get indexed unless there is properly unless there is a big Google update how crucial is indexing for agencies today and what are the best practices do you recommend to make it faster James Dooley says so I'll give you a few knowledge bombs on indexing because we've done a lot of testing in the last 12 months right so number one is obviously if you've got a website make certain you've got Google search console and uh bing Web Master tools being set up making certain that you've got your site map submitted so every time a new post gets done it's submitting to Google search console and being Web Master tools that's just basic SEO right making certain that um the amount of people that don't have Bing Web Master tools and that should have it and the reason why it's so important is because if you can keep indexing with index now within Bing Web Master tools all your page and get them indexed Bing's feeding a lot of GPT answers so you want to be trying to get not just ranking in bing but in GPT search which is growing quite a lot the next part is so many people build links like citations or press releases which can do well right they like pillow links foundational links whatever you want to call them and they don't index them and the point is a lot of these citations you might go and buy 150 citations not load them into an indexer so last year we invested in three different indexing tools Giga indexer index exceptional and B link indexing tools right and those three platforms we've made certain we've got the testing team on it we've made certain that those three have got the highest indexation rate so okay the previous best company that used to do it was a company called Index minow right they had the highest index minow there's like speed links um there's Amiga indexer Co link there's lots of there's lots of others but the the index rate is a lot lower than what index manau was so we knew we needed to be better than index Mano and now Giga index are index exceptional and B link indexing tools got higher indexation rate than um index Mano and we've like linked it to make it simple within chat GPT if people want to load in all the URLs but the best know bombs that we've actually founded right he obviously index all your back links and stuff like that but if you get a new client right on board as an SEO agency something that we found and we don't know the full I'm gonna guess on this bit so don't hold me to this I think it's got something to do with link Rock right or link Decay right so a link over time starts to become less powerful the older it starts to become right and people call it link r or link Decay if you get your new client let's say you're doing 10 new guest posts for that new client go and Export all of their backlink profile existing backlink profile that you think are good link so there's no point doing the toxic like scrap links all the good links and they might have 2,000 referring demands go and load those 2,000 referring demands into index exceptional right and what in even even if they might be in already inex next right go and load them into index exceptional index exceptional goes and pings Google bot three times three different occasions over five days Google bot comes and craws those links three times over the five days right okay and the power of what you get from that existing bat link profile it's like it kind of re reignites the bat link profile and literally you what you can do if you are an agency if you own the website do it if you're an SE agency in month number one it can make you look amazing like oh my God look at these results and that's just from the power of their existing backlink profile and Al what you've just done it's almost like doing tier tws to all the back links you're getting googleing recrawling it and as it comes recrawling it it kind of reassigns that quality score from the bat links that if it's not been crawled for 12 months it just kind of removes that link decay that link RW and that's a big thing that people should be doing every so often every six months going into the back link profile loading them into the indexer even if it's indexed and that's the big bit because why would you load into an indexer if it's already indexed is to get Google bot to come back rescoring them those links and giving you the credit again for those links it's it's like a botox injection you put it in Navneet Kaushal says yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I I I I love that I would I would definitely give it a try and will let you know the results in James Dooley says sign sign up to it and drop me a message and I'll go and give you like 5,000 credits for free um go and sign up to it and you on the next podcast you you show you results if you don't get results Bas say I spoke to James and I didn't get the results I can pretty much guar I can't guarantee it but like we've seen it time and time and time again where we've done it and we've just gone boom boom boom boom and it is it's a great strategy and we never want I never once fought it was one of the testing team one of my people in the testing team that did it and I'm like I was questioning why would you index a URL that's already indexed why would you put it into an indexer and he's like well people talk about link I want to see whether it kind of like gets rid of Link Decay and it and it seems to and and it might be something else someone might be watching it and saying it's nothing to do with link Decay it's nothing to do with link Ro it's because of something else within the Google patents or something I don't know but what all what I do know is reloading your back links into the indexer gives gives a boost especially if it's not been crawled for six to 12 months Navneet Kaushal says wow okay now ai generated content Google updates have made ranking AI content harder do you think AI content is dead or is there a way to make it work James Dooley says you can definitely get it working um I've got thousands of examples of AI content ranking um if you just go into chat GPT and say WR me an article about an SEO agency in Manchester then it's not going to rank um it's not good enough in just giving it a single prompt you need to understand what you need to prompt it you need to understand it's garbage in garbage out so you want to be making certain that the prompts that you're doing you're getting all the right entities being put onto the page you getting all the right questions and answers to rank all your secondary keywords that your content structure your heading hierarchy has got the most that the most Rel and the highest popularity at the top and it comes down into the macro to the micro content and it's sorted by relevance and popularity um that you're answering the questions to your headings directly underneath Standalone content using semantic triples um if you get all that put into the prompts and once you and the point is when I first started using AI I was having to write 5,000 words of prompts to give me a 2,000w article and I'm like what's the point with AI but then what you start to realize is once you've got that prompt you can just reuse that prompt saying use this here's the title here's the like Source context of what I want from the page and here's the desired outcome that's another thing a lot of people don't do with AI they don't give the desired outcome why why are you creating this page it might be you're creating a page for SEO agency Manchester and you're not saying to it that James D SEO is based in Manchester throughout the content try to get him to inquire with James dly SEO that's your desired outcome if you're not telling the AI that it doesn't know it doesn't start mentioning your brand it doesn't no one doesn't try to start doing sales content to get them to fill in the call to action button and stuff like that so the source context desired outcome as well as the title of the page and the prompts of how you want it being set out if you do that then AI content is incredible it's better than me writing it like I'm not ashamed to turn around and say that AI is more intelligent than me at writing content when I give it the right prompts and for anyone to turn around saying I'm a better writer than AI probably just not giving it the right prompts Navneet Kaushal says okay now let's move to our final segment which is the link building now many agencies rely on link building as their main SE strategy where do you see link building heading in 2025 and Beyond James Dooley says I'd say less is more so make certain that you start first and foremost make certain you get all the foundational links there citations press releases to get referring domain count up to get loads of no follow anchor text and uh yeah sorry no follow links uh naked URL anchor text so you've got those foundations put in place that when you do start doing guest post and doing exact match anchors it's very very low on the percentages because you got lots of naked URL or branded anchors but then after that I would prefer to have three I call them now power posts So within seero which is an agency that I invested into I TR to have three power posts then 10 guest posts and you go well okay what's a power post and I what a power post is is a guest post on steroids so it's a guest post that's written very well using the same prompts that just been talking about so it's semantic content that ranks well that's actually trying to rank for the keywords that you want your money site to rank for some people might want to call it parasite SEO right because you're trying to rank your guest posts and you power those guest posts up with tier tws to that guest post and you're getting some sort of virility to that guest post so you tick in the box that it's got social it's got traffic it's got tier tws and it's well written WR on a third party website I soon have three of those articles which we call power posts the intent guest posts that's got no tier tws no virility no social signals it's a thousand words of content that's very generic and might not even index so just it's quality over quantity nowadays try and raise the bar and you might need to spend more for the power post than you do a guest post but I think they've got 10 times more power and they're not 10 times the price so people might need to start understanding there's still a lot of money in link building are still a lot of gains to be buying links but go with the higher quality ones improve the content maybe add internal links if you can some web Masters say they can some say it's 10 pound per internal link sometimes if you can do it on a powerful existing page and internal link it through to your new guest post that can give you some great power then you might not need tier tws if you're not getting any internal link juice power get a few tier 2s through to it to ignite and pass through all the page rank of what you want through to your designated website Navneet Kaushal says so when you mentioned these three power post I understand but when you mentioned those 10 guest post does those 10 guest post need to link to these three power post or to the money site James Dooley says no no no I was saying just I would prefer to have fre power posts instead of 10 guest posts okay don't need the 10 guest posts but if you do basically all what I'm trying to say is if you go in with 10 guest posts try and raise the bar of the content that goes on them on them guest post try to make certain that they get in some sort of viability like sharing on social media maybe even running Twitter ads through to that guest post to get some viability that comes through to it so if you went and ran Twitter ads from India that's a lot cheaper than from the UK but that ility and real logged in users kind of ignite that page and give it reason for Google to crawl all the page and pass the page rank distribution through to your website I I have a an internal kind of thing where I believe a lot of guest posts have got zero power until you give it reason to have power and the zero power to give it the power needs to be social signals traffic being loaded into an indor tier 2s internal links good quality content try and do all them things and it doesn't cost you that much more and by doing all them things that the that little the quality is that little bit better you get so much more than from your guest posting Navneet Kaushal says okay that's actually a good advice now uh there's a growing sentiment that traditional back Ling metrics like domain Authority might be less relevant now so what matrics do you focus on when evaluating the quality of potential backlinks James Dooley says so the whole AG of a bat link is to have a powerful trusted low toxicity relevant with traffic bat link that is the Holy Grail of a bat link but as you know and you're probably going to laugh if anyone went off those metrics they'd never build a bat Link in the life because every bat link that you do has got some level of toxicity every B link that you do is never going to be a do follow dr90 link it's never going to be a trust flow of 50 link like it's just non-existent right so you need to understand the parameters and you need to understand what type of links your competitors are buying and all that you need to do is do enough to win so there's a classic saying that I first heard from Kyle Kyle rof that you don't need to be faster than the bear you just need to be faster than the people running away from the there because like so all what I mean by that is you don't need Perfection you just need to be better than your competition you only need to rank number one and that doesn't need a perfect SEO strategy it just needs a strategy that's good enough to beat your competition so knowing that that's the Holy Grail not but not every link can do that right there's times where if can you get a powerful relevant link I'll get that tick can you get a high trust relevant link i' get that tick take can you get a nonrelevant but it's loads of trust and loads of power I want that take so not all the times can you get at the one link to tick all the boxes but if you can be getting links and they're passing something through then great now what you don't want to be doing is getting a non-p powerful and high toxic link do you know what I mean so it's you just got to look at the boundaries and work out is this link worth it is this link going to move the needle and if if you're not certain and it's going to cost you 100 don't get it but if you're like if there's one for2 200 but you think yeah I think this definitely will then get it then get it and at times instead of buying lots of 50 pound and 100 pound links you might just need five more more expensive ones that you knowing are going to move the needle than lots of the cheaper ones that are guest Post Farms the dr's been manipulated to a dr65 that they've got no traffic that the link to pawn websites Casino websites CBD websites you just know that there spam and but people go but it's a dr65 and it's 30 pounds and so what like I diso that link I don't want the link like you give it me for free I do not want that link I'm not bothered that it's a dr65 and that's the difference between understanding what a good link is and what isn't a good link Navneet Kaushal says one thing more I would add is when we are building we build lot of links for our clients in agency what kind of a backlinks that guest post site is actually ranking for you know sometime it is ranking for all those shitty meaningless keywords even they have all the uh tick it has high traffic High da high D everything but end of the day if it is ranking for a non-relevant keyword we don't go for that even what cheap or expensive I've seen that doesn't work out James Dooley says yeah I mean so many of them now are starting like manipulating the Dr and manipulate the traffic metrics by ranking for like error code or telephone numbers codes and stuff like that and it's just it's so obviously a Spam site and the linking out to everyone so it just comes part of a bad link neighborhood like you're been seen alongside loads of these porn sites or toxic websites and yeah you're completely right there you don't want to be getting those type of links Navneet Kaushal says now for uh businesses with limited resources what would you uh recommend link uh link building approach that offers the best return on invest for them James Dooley says so do you know what I'd probably start to do it depends on what Niche that they're in if they're in a a competitive Niche you need money so don't enter a competitive market if you've not got money it's as simple as that I don't want to sugarcoat it in any other way saying oh you can rank in competitive like you need Authority as long alongside like building good quality content but if you want to go after like a low to medium keyword competition a lot of sites you you can end up ranking by having good quality content and then just getting like your branded link so getting like um your your Twitter your Facebook your Instagram your YouTube and then doing like web twos like your Tumblr your wee blit your Rebel Mouse your blog spot and you're going and get all your social Fortress around your website load them into the indexes so like load them into index optional or something like that go and maybe do some at that point you can do some cheaper type of Links at tier two like GSA still actually works so you can go and get some GSA at tier 2 to those profiles um money robot still works SEO Neo SEO autopilot all these cheap forms of bat links can still work but I just wouldn't direct them directly to my money site so you could go and get some cheaper links pointing to your branded social Fortress which then's passing relevance through and then un like medium.com go and get some decent quality articles WR on medium.com and power them up and they will start ranking for longtail keywords like you could start ranking for link building agency in and then an area if that's what you're wanting to go after or SEO agency or PPC agency or um Facebook advertising agency in different areas even just with medium medium.com post LinkedIn pools these these places still actually Rank and then obviously as it starts to rank like I was saying at the start of the video Don't Go buying an expensive car or expensive clothes reinvest that money get some good quality links and as you start to get the good quality di site you start ranking for more you start earning more build a second website build a third website and so on and so on but start reinvesting that money and have that three-year plan of being like consistent and disciplined to saying I've got a freear plan that I'm going to build it out because I hear all the time if you've not got money if I've not got money if I've not got money well the majority of times if you've not got money go and get yourself a full-time job go and work overtime go and work weekends go and earn that money and then start building out your site so you do have money because it's like saying oh I want to be a plumber but I don't want to buy a van and I don't want to buy my tools well you need a van and you need the tools do you know what I mean so you need s some money to start off in SEO like you need some money to be a plumber because you need the right tools to do the job you want to cut down a tree you need a chainsaw if you've not got a chainsaw what what you going to cut down a tree with do you know what I mean it's going to take you a long time you need the right tools for the job and the right tools for the job of SEO is you need you need some links so you need to somehow earn some money whether that's consultancy agency getting work stacking shelves of a weekend whatever that needs to be do it to get the money for you then to reinvest in building out the websites Navneet Kaushal says okay yeah let we just approaching uh we actually overcross the time so I'm just going to run few questions very fast now uh for the future Trend and advice is what emerging Technologies or Trend do you believe will have the biggest impact on SE and digital marketing in the next couple of years James Dooley says AI Navneet Kaushal says okay now uh what advice would you give to agency owners who are trying to differentiate themselves in an increasingly competitive market James Dooley says um be awesome um just do everything like LIF lift up your fresh should of quality be good um be just be great for the customer stop trying to cut Corners try to overd deliver an under promise and then long term what you're going to do is if you under promise and overd deliver clients are going to sing and shout about how awesome that you are they're going to get the testimonials you're going to get the case studies if you're not certain how to rank keep learning every day is a school day I'm still learning today on so many parts of the algorithm so if I'm still learning today and I've been in it nearly 20 years and I I own thousands of websites then I'm sure a lot of people watching this will be like well wa on a minute if he's got one of the largest testing teams in the world and he's breaking the the algorithms every single day and he's still saying he's learning maybe I'm not great at SEO as well and maybe I should always be learning because you need to be innovative ideas like we've was touching on on the last question then ai ai is evolving every day and what what you can do now like the new gbt's just come out the new Sonic's just come out like everything's becoming more sophisticated and better and you need to stay on top of those Trends and like where was talking about reaching out to 200 people a day nhn I don't know if you've ever heard of that on make.com both of them two platforms you can create AI agents you can start to write statuses in your tonality so it looks like everything's you you've got 11 labs to do um audio kind of cloning your audio you've got um hen that can do videos and stuff like that in a year's time you could be interviewing me and it could be the AI Avatar of me say and I might not there as well Navneet Kaushal says exactly yeah you could be interviewing me it both me and you drinking a panina CL on the beach right very much possible yeah how do you personally stay ahead of the curve and continue learning in such a fast-paced industry James Dooley says you need you it's all comes down to mindset it all comes down to understanding that every day is a school day you want to be a better version today as you was yesterday you want to be speaking to the right people that are doing amazing things not being shy to reach out if you see someone do has done something great reach out to them and I try and offer some value to them like can I help you by doing this this and this or if someone posted a case and you found a problem on the site of what they posted a case study on reach out to that SEO agent say oh just making you aware looked at this site and there's this this and this and so you're not going direct to the client you're going to the S agency they're very thankful or thank you very much for pointing that out just provide value um if someone's asking questions in Facebook groups try to answer it if you know the answer to it um getting your name out there but just consistently wanting to learn um and opening doors every day speaking to new people attending the net networking attending these conferences um and yeah just being Innovative in the that you think Navneet Kaushal says okay now we come to the last segment of our show which is the rapid fire round so short answers whatever comes first in your mind you ready James Dooley says yeah Navneet Kaushal says okay what's the number one SEO mistakes you see agencies making James Dooley says not doing disos Navneet Kaushal says okay one tool you can't live without for SEO James Dooley says AI Navneet Kaushal says okay biggest myth about Su in 2025 James Dooley says biggest what sorry Navneet Kaushal says myth James Dooley says and that highd links work Navneet Kaushal says okay if you had to rank one thing content link or technical SEO what matters the most James Dooley says content Navneet Kaushal says okay what's the best piece of advice you have ever received in your business James Dooley says good question um I've had a lot of good advice because I've had a lot of good mentors I'd say getting a getting a good Mentor getting a good consultant and Mentor that's going to keep you in shape keep your feet on the ground and consistently keep saying that you can do better because like you want to keep striving to improve because also it's good for the mindset to strive to consistently want to improve Navneet Kaushal says all right now James this has been an absolutely Illuminating conversation before we wrap up I have two final questions for you yeah first what's the best way for our listeners to connect with you and learn more about your work James Dooley says so I'm quite active on my YouTube channel or any social media um if you go to james.com then you'll see all the links to all the different social media platforms probably say um probably say YouTube's probably the best watch a video leave a comment if you want if you want any answers qu uh any answers to expand on what that topic is about um or you can yeah go on to james.com Navneet Kaushal says okay and finally if there's one piece of advice you could give to a digital marketing professional that would make the big impact on their business what would it be James Dooley says to understand what their weaknesses are and then try to partner up with someone that kind of is an expert of what they're weak at um I do believe that SEO is a team sport I nearly every single Venture that I do I normally do with a business partner too many people think I don't want to give 50% of away of my business but sometimes if they can do things that you're not very good at then that 50% is called Synergy and one plus one equals three so combined forces together can give such a better Force um that might open doors and other opportunities as well so I'd say start doing more Partnerships and joint ventures with people that complement what you're weak at Navneet Kaushal says okay uh and I want to thank you sincerely for sharing your insights and experience with our audience today of course your perspective on SEO link building lead generation indexing and especially on building successful agency partnership has been incredible well value and uh to our listeners if you enjoy this episode please don't forget to subscribe to the agency Insider show and leave us a review it helps us reach more agency owners and digital marketing professionals with this valuable content James Dooley says yeah one one one more thing I'm just going to cut you in there if anyone's watching this and they've got any questions leave a comment in the comment section I'll personally come back and answer any question that you have on anything that I spoke about if there's anything you was uncertain about leave a comment in the comment section and I'll come back to you with any answer Navneet Kaushal says thank thank you for very much for that and if you are an agency owner looking to scale your SE offerings without expending your in-house te visit petra.com to learn more about our wh label SEO Services designed specifically for agency like yours and once again thanks again James and thanks to everyone for tuning in don't forget to subscribe and leave a review see you into the next episode and thank you