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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn, hosted by my parents, Jess and Scott.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Today's discussion is on after school meltdowns, otherwise known as after school restraint collapse.
Yes?
Let me look at my notes.
I thought you were prepared for this today.
I know, but I learned so many different terms over the next little I'm probably gonna confuse them all.
Maybe not.
I feel like it's going back to school and having to do memory work and understand definitions of things and I feel like you're uh you're becoming quite a little expert over here, but
Or are you getting stretched?
Are you getting m more confused?
No?
No, not at all.
I will say in reading a lot of the articles, scientists tend to have a very specific vocabulary.
And I do often have to look up definitions for a lot of the terms that they use, which I guess is okay for a scientific article that's peer-reviewed in like a widely known publication or something like that.
But
For a regular person reading it.
Sometimes it's a challenge, so you have to really parse the information.
Names.
Yep.
Anyways, let's start with a scene I think many, if not most of our listeners will recognize.
The child is a perfect angel at school, according to their teacher, but the minute they get home, they completely fall apart over the smallest thing
The name for this is After School Restraint Collapse.
Can you introduce us to this concept?
Yes.
And I'd love to do so through story.
If you will.
Please.
Okay.
I will.
A few years ago, our daughter
if you recall.
Uh our youngest was a baby and she was in the hospital with croup.
It came on really fast and aggressive and it was really scary.
She couldn't breathe.
Took her to the hospital, she got like rushed back in and just so little.
And it was just it was really overwhelming, right?
Everyone's
poking her, she's got an IV put in.
And everyone kept saying to me, Oh, like you're such a brave mom.
Like I was holding it all together, right?
I was like
They kept saying, You're so brave, you're so strong, you're doing so good, like you haven't cried.
I was holding it all together, right?
I was being strong for her because she was having a hard time.
And the whole night she was up, I had to be like a fierce advocate for her 'cause she needed things and it wasn't happening.
And I just kept hearing like you're so strong, you're so strong, you're doing so good.
Like usually parents
People fall apart in these situations, but you're so strong.
The next morning I wake up and all of a sudden who walks through the door?
My mom.
And she's carrying coffees
And I could just feel it, just saying it, like I just start sobbing.
I just fall apart.
And I think about this all the time when I think about our kids in after school restraint collapse.
This is the same thing you hear from them, from their teachers.
Oh, they're so good at school.
They're so strong.
They like they're so helpful.
All their classmates are melting down, but they're so good.
They're so strong.
They're doing such a good job
And so you wonder to yourself, why is it then that when I walk into the school, they immediately start falling apart or acting badly or they they don't listen or they're melting down?
Why are they only bad for me
Right.
And I think about that situation with my mom when I watched her walk through the door and I just broke down.
It's not that I'm only bad for her, I only cry for her.
It's that I just felt
Finally safe enough to release my tears.
And I think that is the picture we need to have in mind when our kids are crying after school only for us
And they don't do that at school.
It's not that they're only bad for you, it's that they feel safest with you and they finally can release the tears from the time when they bumped their knee and they looked around and no one was gonna give them a hug, right?
Or the time when their friend didn't share the toy with them and usually they'd lose their cool at home.
they held it together because there was no one there to tell them like, oh, it is hard when your friend takes your toy.
You know, there's like tiny moments all throughout the day when your kids keeping it in, keeping it in, and then they see you and they release it all out.
And that's what the after school restraint collapse is.
And I think in order to frame this discussion properly, we have to understand that for the majority of the time
It's because they feel safest with us and now they can release their tears of how hard the day was.
Yeah, well let's talk about that because that might be a huge reframe for parents who feel like they might be doing something wrong or their child is just being
bad for them or something like that.
So from a psychotherapist's perspective, how does attachment theory help us understand why our home is the designated safe space
for these emotional explosions or meltdowns.
Yeah, so if we look at it from attachment theory, and this is in the case where the child is properly attached to their parent, right?
Like you have that good relationship with your child.
It's exactly what I said.
In order to cry, which is a really important thing, release your tears, talk about how hard something is, you need to feel safe with the person first, right?
Like in a healthy way.
Typically you're not crying to just people that you don't feel safe.
And often our children don't have that relationship maybe yet with their teacher, where they're gonna go to them for a hug or tell them how hard their day is or whatever.
So they're bottling that all up.
And when they finally see you, if we look at it from an attachment perspective, they finally feel like they can release it
Right?
They're they're with their safe person.
But sometimes it it doesn't feel like they're attached to us because they're releasing it in like, you're the worst mom
But they know you can handle it, right?
And so you need to tell yourself as a parent, like they have to let out these feelings.
Well do they even know that you can handle it?
Or is it just
Their body feels safest with you, so therefore Well within the context of a safe and attached relationship, a child would know that they could push back on you in that way.
And
You will still love.
They're still safe no matter what.
They're still safe.
Yeah.
It's not like they're actively thinking about I feel safe with my my mom or my dad, so therefore I'm going to cry because that
In that moment with my mom, I wasn't thinking so deeply about it either, right?
I just was like, Oh, finally I can cry.
Someone else is here.
You're using maybe more of your limbic system, like the emotional
part of your brain than the actively thinking part of your brain.
Because even as adults, like when you go through that kind of stress of like your child being so ill like that, you kind of resort back to just like you're acting from your fight or flight.
response just like you did when you were a kid, right?
And I think for your children, they just inherently know, oh, this is my safe person.
I I can release my tears around them.
Uh Jess, I think it's crucial for parents to know the difference between a goal-oriented tantrum and a true meltdown.
And the research suggested that there's a neurological distinction that during this restraint collapse
specifically for after school, but it can happen in a bunch of different scenarios.
The logical part of the child's brain is essentially just offline.
They can't use the logical part of the brain.
They can't use their prefrontal cortex.
It's the emotional part that's controlling things.
So can you break down that difference for us and explain why trying to reason with a child during a meltdown is often completely ineffective?
Yeah, so I guess if you wanna get really technical, there is a difference, I guess, between a tantrum and a meltdown.
Let's think about why a meltdown happens.
Often it's more of like a sensory reason, like
Your brain's been busy actively working all day.
There's been lights and sounds and textures, taste, like all these things going on.
You're overwhelmed, you're tired, you're hungry.
It's like all these things.
And then you kind of shut down and all that's left to do is just cry
And scream and protest and let it all out.
I have seen that especially in our sensitive daughter when she gets into those meltdowns like that.
Like there's really nothing
thing you can do and what I coach clients is like if they get to that point, ideally we try and help them not get to that point.
It's safety, making sure that they're safe.
They're in a place where they can.
They're not hurting their head, like banging it against the floor like there's pillows or whatever.
Being like, I can handle it.
Let it out.
They have to let it out.
Like there's no way through a meltdown besides
letting it out.
A tantrum is maybe a little different and less of what we're seeing straight after school.
And it's like I want this specific thing, right?
Like I see our our daughters are fighting over like a Barbie and they both want the same Barbie
And really everything else is kind of steady in their life.
The day's been fine.
They're not hungry.
They just really, really, really want this Barbie.
It's like a goal-oriented tantrum and they're devastated when they can't have it.
Is that the difference?
Like a tantrum is typically a goal-oriented thing versus a meltdown is not something they can necessarily control.
Yes.
I feel like those two terms are I use them interchangeably.
Like they're the same thing.
I personally
I think it can be helpful to see the difference because a tantrum in the earlier stages could potentially be worked through with playfulness, like being goofy, redirection, taking them to a calm spot.
Whereas a meltdown, like there's no way through it but through it.
I was reading that that often doing anything to try and resolve it other than trying to just be there for them and keep them safe and all that can actually make it worse.
Exactly.
So that is where it's important to know.
Okay
I learned something new now.
Yeah.
Like a tantrum, you can sometimes be playful and get through it.
Yep.
You can maybe redirect them like, hey, let's go to this room.
And they forget about it.
That's not happening with a meltdown.
a meltdown, only way through it is crying.
And you have to welcome those tears.
And often parents are trying to do all the other things and it's just getting worse and worse because your child like they're
logical brain will only come back once they've released it all.
They've gotta let it out.
Okay.
Maybe a lot of other parents know the difference, but I did not know I didn't understand that difference, so I kind of thought they were the exact same thing.
That's good to know.
I feel like
That's an important thing for parents or caregivers of children in general to understand because that helps you understand that there's kind of two different things.
possibly going on and one can be kind of resolved in the moment, the other one you don't really have any control over because their brain at least the prefrontal cortex has gone fully offline.
Yeah
Yeah, no.
Not fully offline, but it's gone offline.
I have talked about this before, but maybe we haven't chatted about it on the podcast.
I don't know.
And maybe it's possible that I'm using the word meltdown and you're thinking tantrum.
You know what I mean
Yeah, well in my mind it's always been kind of the same thing.
A different word for the same thing.
And one thing I will say when it comes to like little toddlers, preschoolers, is like
Dysregulation is dysregulation.
Right.
So you can call it whatever you want, but if they are super dysregulated, they're dysregulated, whether you call it a tantrum, whether you call it a meltdown.
I think specifically when we're talking about after school, because school is like the perfect cocktail of like all the things.
that would make a child have those meltdowns like epic, you can't work through it.
That's where parents really do need to understand that all these strategies that might work for their day-to-day tantrums that they typically use are not gonna work
when kids are at that point.
Well and I was sort of expecting that to happen y yesterday after their first day of school.
So at the time of this recording, it's our second day of school.
for the kids.
I was kind of expecting it to happen then.
I kind of expect one of them at least is gonna have it sometime this week as they get more and more tired just being at school.
Yeah, last night none of them had meltdowns actually.
It was kinda surprising.
I mean they were kind of used to 'cause they've all been in school
At least for one year.
And I think they did the summer camp.
And I think summer camp is.
It's hot, busy, active all day
So I wasn't too surprised with the older two, but yeah, I expected our toddler definitely to have more.
But she was pretty good last night.
Yeah.
Okay, but
The school day, I think, could sometimes be described as a marathon of self-regulation for kids that just depletes all of their resources.
Beyond just being tired, what's really happening to a child's system throughout the day
Can you talk about the combined impact of sensory overload, social pressures, and even blood sugar crashes that contribute to this daily depletion?
I mean, I feel like you just named them all.
So social pressure
Let's just talk about a kid, like an active kid who has to sit all day.
Like I think some kids, I truly believe in my core, were not designed to sit at a desk all day.
And we forced them to, but their bodies just weren't meant to be like that
And a lot of the kids that I work with, those are those kids, right?
They get in trouble at school and they're trying.
Like I have kids who be like, I try to sit, I just can't
Can't like they wanna be good, they wanna do well, they just can't.
It's a school feels like torture to them to try and be at a desk all day, right?
So you have them, they're they're trying to do something that's feels very impossible for their body
And then they get home and they let it all out, right?
Or you have the kids who have maybe low impulse control, maybe they have ADHD, something like that, and they're trying to control their impulses all day
They're really trying to like keep them at bay and they try.
Sometimes it doesn't work.
And then they get home and it's like, I can't, like their threshold is gone, right?
So then
It's no impulse control at home.
Or you have the kids who have friendship struggles at school, right?
And at all day at school they have like little girl drama, which we're gonna do an episode on soon.
Like
that's happening or the boys are fighting and they get home and they take out that stress on their family.
Right.
There's so many factors of things that are hard at school.
We've all been in school.
I'm su every person you ever talk to can name something that was tough for them when they were at school.
Right?
Right.
I feel like we often view what our child is doing now in school or in life.
We compare that to like what our brain is able to
do without realizing or remembering what it was actually like to be that age and how our brain wasn't fully developed yet either.
So I I don't know, I feel like we sometimes have
this bias be just based on the brain and the what we can experience now.
Yeah.
Oh, it's it's a day of school.
Like yeah, you're learning, but you're kind of sitting, you're not doing anything super active.
Yeah, you forget what it's like to be a ten year old boy who has to sit in class all day and gets in trouble for getting up and
isn't allowed to go to the bathroom more than once in a class and feels like they can't control their body and they're doing this and everyone's annoyed with them, like you just you forget what that's like.
Or you never experience that because you were never a ten year old boy who had ADHD, you know.
But
I feel like for a lot of kids school is really tough.
And when the adults in their life can see that and how just take them seriously and work through that, that's a lot better than when we're like, oh, I was in school too and I was 10 and I had to sit through class
suck, but it is what it is, you know.
Which is also not necessarily wrong, because that's the situation that we live in.
That's the society we live in and how we do things.
I mean it's the best way, I don't know.
Yeah.
Probably not.
Not for all kids, but Yeah.
So trying to remember.
I try and remember what it was like.
And then also I don't want to project my own like
Oh, I remember how awful it was.
Oh, yeah.
It was so terrible and like I hated it and schools sucked.
Like I don't want to say that to my kid.
But I can remember how hard it was and so I can empathize if she comes to me with that.
You know what I mean?
Like you don't want to project like because this happened to me, this is gonna happen to you.
Project any of your own s insecurities and kind of get them thinking about, oh maybe, yeah, maybe it's a lot worse than I thought.
Right.
Or like or you're so fearful they're gonna get bullied because you got bullied that like
You say it all the time to them and now they're like, wait, is this bullying?
Like, oh, I thought I didn't think it was bullying, maybe it was.
So uh there's just a balance, just tricky.
Anyway, that's a whole separate
conversation.
Yeah.
I don't know if that's like a resilience conversation or what, but anyways, a term that came up in the research for this episode was co-regulation, which we've talked about how self-regulation isn't a skill kids learn.
on their own or in a vacuum, but one that's built through interaction with a calm adult.
What is the parent's role as a co-regulator in these moments?
And how does lending our calm nervous system to our child help them in the long run?
Great question.
Do you think everyone understands what co-regulation means?
Uh no, probably not.
I mean we've talked about it a bunch in a lot of episodes, but it's probably good to
define that.
How would you define co-regulation?
Co-regulation is when your child is having a tantrum or meltdown, you are still calm and warm towards them and you maybe potentially narrate
how they're feeling and what that's doing to their body and all of that depending on their age and if they're able to hear it.
And just
kind of being calm in that moment so that they see and use how you are acting and feeling and kind of they learn to take that on themselves.
They start to mirror that and take that on.
as a child.
So they develop that just based on what they see from you.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's a great description.
I think even broader
Like adults can co-regulate with each other, right?
Like so it's the idea that one person's calm is being lent to the other person.
They can kind of borrow that calm until they can kind of get back to being calm themselves.
Right.
So even when
Let's say I'm upset about something, but you come in, you're calm, and you're just like, Jess, what's going on?
How are you feeling?
Let's talk it through.
That helps me then restore my own calm.
Right?
I think we're meant to co-regulate with each other.
We're not meant to always self-regulate.
That's not how humans were designed to be.
But in small children, they don't have the ability to regulate their own emotions and they
are still developing that and the only way that they develop the ability to self-regulate is through repeated exposures to a calm adult in their top
moments and that's co-regulation.
And basically what you want to do when you're co-regulating with your child is show them how to regulate emotions through kind of being that voice of reason for them that you hope they'll eventually take on for themselves
So whether that's talking to them, narrating, or just simply existing beside them.
So if your child's having like we were talking about the restraint collapse, like a big meltdown, you might not even be saying anything.
Like you're just there
Yeah, because again, it sounds like based on the research, often when a child is having that meltdown, saying anything is like throwing gasoline on the fire, it can make it way worse.
Yep.
So you're just sitting beside them.
I'm here, let it out.
I've got this
It's okay.
Just simple.
Making sure that they're safe.
But eventually, like when they come to, it's almost like they are a different person when they're melting down.
They come to then you're like, hey, I'm here for you.
Like that was really tough
Makes sense you felt that way.
It was a ha it was a long day.
Let's talk about it.
Yep.
Right?
But you wait till they're calm.
So kids require this co-regulation in order to learn how to regulate on their own.
And I think we often
forget about that and are like, why can't you just calm down?
Like they can't.
So it's important for parents to recognize that and it's hard to do, especially
at the end of school day when your capacity is lower for regulating with them.
At least my capacity is always low at the end of a school day and you're just like, oh my word, I have to make dinner.
I you have to do homework, blah blah blah blah blah.
So it's important to keep in mind like
how important it is and also that you don't always have to say a lot.
Sometimes you just have to be there.
Yep.
Hey friends, so at pickup last week our daughter asked Scott a truly
kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan.
And he said to our daughter, thank you for asking.
Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
And that's a line that he learned straight from
our new body safety and consent course at Nurture First.
So this new body safety and consent course is taught by me, so Jess.
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There was this other thing I saw.
in the research and they emphasize creating a soft landing after school.
I don't know if you've heard of that before.
And it's essentially helping your child decompress
After school so they don't have that meltdown.
So what does a predictable and effective decompression routine look like in the
in that first whatever half hour, hour after a child gets home.
Are there essential ingredients like connections, snacks, rest, whatever?
that can help prevent a meltdown before it even starts?
Or is it sometimes just inevitable that it's gonna happen?
Sometimes it's inevitable.
And sometimes I think what happens is our kids get home.
You can imagine they're on like a ship
in the rocky seas, you know, being tossed around all day.
They finally think they're getting home to their safe harbor and then we like ask them one more thing and like rock the boat one last time and then it tips over and they're like, I can't do it.
So sometimes I think kids get home from school and then we right away start placing a whole bunch of demands on them, right?
Like clean up your shoes, don't leave them there, don't leave your backpack there.
Come on, clean up your lunch.
Okay, start your homework or let's go, we're gonna go to gymnastics.
And it's like, hold on.
I can't take one more wave coming my way.
Like, even something so simple as like you're asking me to put my lunch away and clean this up.
Like I've
Done everything I can possibly do for everyone else today and boom, like the ship flips and they're done.
And this is where like routines are nice, like where just make things really easy for them.
Like they come in, this is where their backpack goes.
Like you have like
some rhythms in place, I think that can be really helpful for them.
So like having a rhythm in place, try not to bombard them with a thousand questions when they get home.
Like how's cool?
Who's your teacher?
Da-da-da-da-da-da.
Like
That's more overwhelming.
So like low words, just kind of like a calm environment.
Have a snack ready.
They're gonna need that when they get home.
They're gonna need something like a a hearty snack
Something I was reading something recently being like, we're feeding kids dinner way too late.
Like realistically, they should probably be eating like an early dinner at like four.
Like that's when they're starving for dinner, right?
But we feed them like a bunch of snacks and then try and force them to eat dinner at like six, six thirty.
But anyway, have like a if you can have it like a decent snack for them ready.
And then maybe it's just like quiet time for a little bit.
You know your child
Some kids need to talk about it right away, but a lot of kids just need that slow, calm transition to home.
Let them have their snack, maybe let them play for a little bit, and then you can start asking them about their day.
But just don't overload them with more stuff once they get home.
That'd be just an easy, simple suggestion.
So I made a note for Scott because we were talking about after school restraint collapse, after school meltdowns, tantrums.
There is one small note that I wanted to make, which was outside of being
the safe place for your kids.
There are sometimes other reasons why these meltdowns only happen at home that we can talk about in detail in future episodes, but I did want to note sometimes kids do better
at school.
So some kids, and this is not super common, but the structure of school, the consistency of the boundaries that they know that they have from the teachers, the lack
of screens that they have at school, the expectations that they know that they have, the way that they know what's coming next, they thrive in that environment.
And sometimes they don't have that at home.
So they come home and it's like there's no rules, there's no boundaries, they don't know what to expect from their parents.
It's chaos, their parents yell a lot, like they don't know what to expect from them, they don't know when bedtime's gonna be, and they have that at school, and that's why they do so well, and they don't have that at home.
So sometimes we do have to ask ourselves, is there something more here of why school works so well for them and home is not working well for them?
Like maybe there's some things that are happening at school that I could implement at home that could actually help home go better
So I just wanted to make a note of that because I have seen that before that they were blaming it on like after school restraint collapse.
But when we really looked into it, it was that the kid just did better with the routine at school and needed some more structure at home
And then on the flip side too, sometimes at school for kids like the expectations are more realistic.
Teachers are like pretty understanding of where children are in terms of their development.
And then the kids would get home and the expectations would be unrealistic.
too much like rigidity and high expectations on the kids and this would make them lose their cool or just seem like they're
not behaving.
Meanwhile, at school they're just behaving because they're being expected to do what they should be able to do.
And at home, the expectations are unrealistic.
Yeah.
So sometimes when it's more than that, we have to look at those other pieces.
So I just wanted to make a note of that.
Okay
But you're saying that's less likely to happen or be the case?
In my experience, it's less likely
But also I'm usually working with parents who have also worked really hard on strengthening the relationship with their kids.
Okay.
I would say in general
It is very possible that a child does better at school just because they have a caring adult, because they have the structure and routine, because they know what to expect, and they maybe don't have that at home.
I see.
Interesting.
Yeah, I mean you're seeing a certain subset of the population that's coming to you for often very specific reason, right?
So And likely similar people listening to this podcast who are working really hard on strengthening the relationship, right?
But that is a note that if
a clinician is listening or something like that I wanted to make because you do have to kind of look at why are they thriving at school and not at home, right?
So you have to look at all the pieces always.
The research also pointed out that children who are neurodivergent, for example, those with ADHD or sensory processing sensitivities, are often more likely to have
this restraint collapse or experience that.
So how might the approach or the decompression routine need to be adapted for a child who is, say, a sensory seeker versus one who is sensory avoidant?
Mm-hmm.
Definitely we see kids who are neurodiverse have the bigger melt-ins at home.
It's a concept called masking where we can kind of hide some of our neurodivergent symptoms when we're in a social setting for a while.
So for example, like the desire to like
stand up all day or wiggle or move around, right?
Like you're kind of pushing that down all day long.
And then you get home and you're like, I can't do that anymore, right?
Or
You know, I even think about for me as a child struggling so much with school, but trying to make it appear like I'm doing good or I'm interested in what I'm learning, right?
Even though it's like painful to like
do a subject like math, like I can't focus, I I can't seem to get it right.
And you're so frustrated with yourself.
And then you get home and you like let out all your frustrations on your parent, right?
That's what I used to do.
Sorry mom.
I used to get so mad at her.
Meanwhile I was just mad 'cause I had to sit all day and learn something that just wasn't clicking with my brain, right?
So for these kids, let's say if and then you mentioned sensory seekers.
Those are the kids who often do best when they have a lot of sensory input.
So like
Textures, lights, tastes, like they're craving all of those things, which just in a classroom you're not always getting.
Sensory avoiders are like, it's too bright.
There's too many textures, there's too many people talking to me all at once.
So a sensory avoider, you probably want to have a nice quiet setup for them when they get home.
nice like maybe even dim lights in the house, have their snack ready for them.
Maybe they go play somewhere quietly in the room or something like that just to decompress.
Your sensory seeker, I wouldn't say like have loud music blasting, like that's not what they need.
But maybe they would do well with like a certain
blanket that they can snuggle with that has like a nice texture, they might do well if they could run around outside when they get home.
Like what is that there's that other term?
Is it like proprioceptive or something like that where they want movement or like they need the feeling of
say swinging or jumping on a trampoline or something like that.
Yes, that's the type of input that their body needs, right?
So these kind of kids, they might need to go jump on a trampoline.
They might need to shoot hoops outside.
Sometimes I think we're like, I'm trying to give them a wind down routine.
It's just not working.
Those are the kids, those sensory seekers, you gotta get them moving.
Like they're gonna do better if they go outside and run around
or shoot hoops, like the thumping of a basketball might feel good, or jumping on the trampoline, whatever.
So you gotta
get to know your kid and see how they unwind the best.
Because every kid might unwind in a different way.
Like for me, I betcha I would unwind the best with the quiet environment, you know, the snack and reading my book.
Whereas for you as a kid, I wonder if you would have
needed to like go run around outside and shoot some hoops and not that you play basketball, but you know, like go out on the street, ride your bike around.
Usually on my grandparents' place I would do that.
Yeah.
Or I would uh grab a golf club and my grandparents had a big field and I would just
hit the golf club and run after the ball and keep just hitting it.
So you probably needed that sensory you know, the sensory experience.
So yeah, work with your child to see what's gonna work best for them.
Alright, here's a point of debate for you, just screen time.
You ready?
Sure.
Some see it as a necessary tool for decompression, while others worry it's just a crutch that prevents kids from actually processing their day.
What is your clinical take on using screens as a part of an after-school routine?
Is there a right way to do it?
I want a black and white answer, Jessica.
So I actually have no problem with kids using screens to unwind after school.
And I don't think it should be the only way they unwind after school.
And I don't think it should replace
making sure you connect with your child about your school day.
Like I wouldn't necessarily just have my kid come home, turn the screen on from three thirty till six when they have dinner, have dinner with them, put them to bed.
Like I don't think that that's the right way to go about it.
But I do think for some kids
Especially I think there's new research on neurodivergent kids.
Like it can be a good way for them to just kind of settle their body just for a little bit
just kind of get them to that rested state where they're sitting, they're relaxing, they're like on the couch.
And then from there maybe we transition them to something else.
But
I always like you gotta tune in with your kids and you gotta have boundaries around it.
So I think my parents did something that I found really helpful as a kid.
Like we got home, we'd always have a snack
then we'd have some downtime.
So before you do your homework, so I would usually read, you know, maybe my brothers would like go run around outside or whatever.
After that you have to do your homework.
first and then when the homework was done you could watch screens while my mom made dinner until we had dinner and then the transition was from like screens to dinner time.
And I think something like that's helpful because there's boundaries and like there's a s like a rhythm to what you do after school.
But I I wouldn't want my kids to
expect that like they get home and now it's screens till dinner.
I think having some kind of rhythm, some kind of boundary around it is important.
But if you want to throw some screen time in there, I would, but I'd also be mindful of what kind
Like I think you need to be super careful about your kids coming home and getting straight back on their screens and talking to their friends again.
Like kids need a break from their friends and I think they're not getting that break right now
But they get home straight on their device, straight back to talking to their friends.
That would be a big boundary for me.
Like you're not talking to your friends immediately as soon as you get home.
You don't need to do that.
You've just been with them all day.
You need a break.
Your brain needs a break from hearing from your friends
So if I understand what you're saying correctly, you would say that screens can be okay if used within reason.
And are not the primary method of decompression for most children.
Yeah.
And I think know your kid.
Like so let's say you know your kid and you know if they come home, they have their snack, they watch 30 minutes of a show, then they're good to go until dinner.
Then they go outside, they run around, go on trampoline, whatever, and then you have dinner and they're fine.
Great.
But if you know your kid comes home.
And you put a show on, and there is nothing they will do after that.
Like if you turn the TV off, it's gonna be the worst meltdown ever.
If you try and suggest that they go play outside, it's gonna be the worst meltdown ever.
Like then I wouldn't do it.
Like you have to know your child and kind of know
What's gonna work best for them and if screens are just leading to like more meltdowns for you, then they're not working.
Then I would find another way to decompress
Yeah, and like honestly I would probably choose for the most part something else for our girls.
Yeah.
I notice us getting away from screens.
Like I think we've gotten not against screens, but I just think we've noticed that our kids do better with as little screens as possible.
And the less we introduce screens, the less they crave it.
Like I really notice if we ha watch more screens, they ask for it more.
But we haven't been and they just read okay, they'll go play Barbies, they'll go play outside.
Like So I'm right now with where we're at, I'm very
hesitant to add any screens in after school because they just they have been okay without it.
So I wouldn't add it in if they're fine.
No, 100%.
Yeah.
Let's talk about the parent-teacher relationship.
How can parents maybe proactively partner with teachers as allies if their child is doing well in school, but then coming home and having
this meltdown or restraint collapse.
What kind of information might be helpful to share and what can they ask the teacher to better understand their child's daily experience?
Yeah I think trying to form a relationship with your child's teacher is ideal if you can
You want to be able to have that person that you can ask about your kid.
It's hard because teachers are often overworked and they've got tons of kids in the class, right?
So being direct with the questions that you ask and not coming across it in a way ever that's blaming the teacher
You know, teachers I think get a lot of flack from parents all the time.
And I like to try and have a generous interpretation that like my kids' teachers trying their best and they've got a lot of kids in the class and when I'm asking questions I don't want to come across in a blaming way, like
I think teachers get blamed for a lot of people.
They get a lot of flack from parents.
They get blamed by a lot of parents for the
parents' own inabilities.
Or for things beyond their control.
And then teachers get their defenses up, which I totally understand.
Like sometimes kids are struggling at school.
Right.
And it's not necessarily the fault of a teacher who's one teacher for a class of thirty-two children.
It's a larger system issue.
But if the teacher is immediately like attacked by the parents, like, you're not giving my son enough attention or whatever, they're gonna put their defenses up
And then it's going to be really hard to work together, right?
So you always want to start with what's the common goal here?
The common goal is we want to support this child.
Teacher wants to support the child.
You want to support the child.
So the questions can be like, hey, we've been noticing that so-and-so is having a really difficult time transitioning out of school.
Like I'm wondering, what is he like at the end of the day?
Or hey, I'm noticing at home we're seeing a lot of like hitting and biting and kicking.
I'm wondering if you've noticed this at all at school and how things are going for him during his school day.
So just be curious with the teacher and the
For the teacher, it's actually helpful to know that too, because if a teacher understands that, oh, this child's having huge meltdowns when they get home every day, I'm not seeing that here.
Sometimes teachers will do things like, here's some things that I notice really help so-and-so at school.
He does really well with a visual schedule.
He does well and I give him a a warning for transition.
Like I've had teachers write parents like
beautiful emails of like these are all the things that help him.
I know that he can struggle, but this is what I've worked out.
That's fantastic.
Then we're like, okay, great.
Perfect.
Let's implement this at home.
And it's great.
Like that's
the point I was adding for you.
Sometimes teachers can give some great insight.
Other times they just have no clue.
Like I think when our middle was in preschool, which is a little different, she was having giant meltdowns every day.
Like melt
sounds right and I remember telling her teacher once, she's like, I would have no idea.
Yeah, I know.
I remember that.
She's like, her?
Like she's perfect in class.
Oh yeah, well, at home, this is what's happening.
So then maybe they can be like, okay, well she might need some extra breaks.
She goes hard all day, but maybe we kind of have to f
force a little bit more quiet time on her, like you know, make sure that she does take a pause, drinks her water, actually takes time to eat her snack.
Like so you can work together, hopefully, with the teacher, but you have to have that open dialogue first
Without blaming Yeah, you can't read each other's minds.
And for teachers, like without blaming the parents immediately either.
Because a lot of parents, even if they aren't doing things perfectly at home, they just don't have the
A lot of teachers listen to this too, right?
So they just maybe don't have the skills that they need to support their kid.
So you can offer some guidance too.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Well, I think
That's a good place to wrap this up.
So final question.
What do you think is the most important mindset shift the parent can make or take away?
from this conversation that can transform these incredibly challenging moments into opportunities for a deeper connection with their child.
I think if they're having those truly epic meltdowns, making that safe space for them and just saying, let it out, it's okay.
I'm here for you.
I had a client tell me the other day, she's like, man, saying let it out has changed everything for me.
Like I went from trying to stop the meltdowns at all costs to just be like, it's okay.
Just let it out.
She's like, and we move through it so much quicker.
It's like she's like, it's crazy, it it feels counterintuitive that saying let it out would mean that
the meltdown is shorter.
But all the things I was trying to do to stop it just made it go on for longer and longer and longer.
So I'd say allowing yourself to just ride the wave of the meltdown, know that it will end.
But then also, yeah
looking at the whole picture and seeing if there's ways you can support your kiddos.
They they shouldn't really be having these every single day, right?
If it's every day, I'd I'd want to look at the whole picture and see what we can do to support them.
Yeah.
Now, sorry
I forgot to ask this question, but is this most common for like really young kids and then it just kind of goes away over time?
Or do all kids have this?
Let's say our oldest.
She doesn't really have these meltdowns.
Not yet.
Maybe it.
Yeah, mm mm not yet.
No, but I mean even last year, did she?
She did when she was five.
So it should hopefully
resolve itself as your kid gets older and learns their own capacity at school.
If it's not, like I will say I work with a lot of boys who are still having these big meltdowns.
I'd be really curious about what's going on for them, you know, especially when they start to get shut down and like they don't want to talk to you about what's going on.
I'd be looking at friends
social academics, how are they doing?
Like you want to look at all the the pieces.
If they're like seven, eight, nine, ten, they're still having these meltdowns.
Like then Are they getting enough sleep?
Are they getting enough sleep?
Then I'd be really like, okay, this feels more than they're only safe with me.
This feels like, are they getting enough sleep?
Yeah.
What's the social situation?
Are they having friends struggle struggles?
Yeah.
Are they playing too many video games or whatever?
Are they playing too many video games?
Is school really tough and
they are feeling uncool because they don't know how to do math or whatever, right?
Like there's so many facts.
It doesn't feel cool if you're bad at it and all your friends are good at it.
Never has, right?
So those are the faces I'd be I'd be looking at.
But don't just be like, oh, whatever.
If they're getting older and they're still having them, like stay curious, as always.
Right
Okay.
Well, thank you for this.
I appreciate it.
You're welcome.
There's even uh a few things that I'm going to be changing, like even for uh
I think I can't remember if I mentioned at the beginning of this one or a different episode, but I've been looking into snacks that help kind of maintain blood sugar levels and don't
create a huge spike or anything like that because that has a huge effect on these meltdowns and reducing the likelihood of them happening.
So even that I'm trying to come up with a schedule for or making sure they eat on time, but also eat foods that are going to help them not have that.
Yeah, exactly.
Like if they're coming home and then they're just having like a really sugary cereal for a snack, then you might see even more of a crash later, right?
Or
What's the easiest?
And I mean we're guilty of giving it away.
Oh, we're so guilty of this.
Is giving them bare paws or something like that, right?
Because it's quick and easy, they can just grab a package and eat it.
But
That's not necessarily helping them.
Yes, exactly.
No, we're so guilty of that.
And uh I notice that when we're better on the snack front, like when I give them like
hummus and vegetables and some cheese and maybe some like turkey sticks or something.
It does regulate them a lot more than if I give them a bear paw.
Mm-hmm.
So Okay.
Well good talk Jess.
Of course.
I think this was a helpful one.
Thanks for lecturing me again
Anytime.
Well, we'll talk to you all soon.
I hope this was helpful for you.
I know that this is a topic that comes up for me constantly, so I'm really glad that we could offer all this and uh yeah, hope it helps people.
Thanks for listening.
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