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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

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author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

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Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

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thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

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I have a request.

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If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

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It really helps us get this work done.

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As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

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And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

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equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

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If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

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com.

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So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

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Welcome back rockers.

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We have Dr.

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Mark Uranga here from Idaho.

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And if you're worrying, wondering,
not worrying, wondering where

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the name Uranga comes from.

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It's Basque, Basque Spanish well,
so Basque French, which is this

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interesting corner of the Atlantic,
semi Celtic Fringe in Europe.

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And some of you may know that there
was a large scale immigration of

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Basque Shepherds to the United States
in the 19th and early 20th century.

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So there is an interesting subculture and
I went and did a training in Idaho last

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year and was lucky enough to meet Mark
who brought his mule to the training.

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And the mule was the
Star Fi show for sure.

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And, mark intrigued me because
as a doctor and a pediatrician,

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he has some interesting insights
on the work that we all do.

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And I think it is always useful
for us to know that doctors

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actually do support this stuff.

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And, you know, don't, don't just
roll their eyes and say, well, you

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guys are just playing with ponies.

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So it's, it's nice that we have a
chance to get 'em on here and ask him

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why, why does he think that equine
assisted stuff is, is, is valid?

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What does it do?

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And so on.

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So without further ado, mark, who are you?

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What do you do?

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And yeah, take it from there.

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Mark Uranga: Well, thank you first for
all the work that you do to advance the

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idea that there's growth to be had for,
families and for children outside of a

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clinical model, specifically speaking,
one confined to buildings and to

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people with different types of degrees.

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My background is, as you mentioned,
as a Basque Idahoan, and I don't

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know that I can separate the two.

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I was born and raised in Boise,
Idaho, and from an early age,

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thought I might be a veterinarian.

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At about the age of 20, when it was time
to take the test for veterinary school or

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medical school, I felt drawn to a little
bit richer involvement with families and

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complexities of human-centered medicine.

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And from there I went to medical
school and trained in pediatrics,

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and I've been practicing for about 14
years in the Boise area, a year or two

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before that in New Hampshire and the
richness of the clinical environment.

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Is something that I treasure every day.

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It is not always the place to make
inroads for people that struggle to

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sit still or to be in a confined space.

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But it is a place that about
20 times a day, I test the

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interactions with children,
adolescents, and their caregivers.

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And the, the draw of that for me was
initially to show parents how interacting,

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even in moments of time can really help
children feel more safe, more comfortable.

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Clearly the, the pediatrician's office,
if any of us remembered, it's mostly

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about shots and it's mostly about
inconveniences and fear, either because

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of going with illness or getting a shot.

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And some of our training, I was
lucky enough to have mentors who.

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Emphasize the value of
making a child comfortable.

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And what I quickly found is that a
comfortable child is a more reliable

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patient, somebody that I can learn
their nuances much more quickly.

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I think that having been drawn to
pediatrics, it came from a background

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where I was lucky enough, as you
mentioned, to grow up in a kind

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of a community within a community.

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So in, in current life, a lot of
us aren't around children anymore.

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And I was lucky enough to go to a
daycare from eight weeks old to about

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12 years old where an Basque woman
modeled the interactions with children.

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And I was surrounded by little kids at
a time where I didn't have necessarily a

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lot of cousins or 10 siblings or anything
like that, but that early experience

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helped me be comfortable with children.

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So.

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As I was modeling that in, in clinic,
it, it's become more and more clear

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that this communication that we
develop in moments within a, a clinic

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visit, really makes a difference
in the interactions with a child.

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Rupert Isaacson: You said
you were lucky enough.

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I, I don't hear many people say, I was
lucky enough to go to a daycare, you know?

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So clearly that was a positive experience.

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What is special do you think about the
Basque approach to children and family?

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Mark Uranga: It's a, it is a
great question and one that I

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I've had a couple opportunities to
explore that well think growing.

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The Basque culture has always been a
little stubborn and has also been defined

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by a language that doesn't easily, it's
not a romance language by background.

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So the, the overlap with invaders
or visitors from Roman elsewhere was

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more problematic for the conquerors.

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And so there's sort of this history of
a, of a little bit of nuanced and, and

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more isolated approach to, to community.

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And within that, the, the family
becomes a really important kind of seed.

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And so as many immigrant stories are
families coming over, came with different

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attachments different sponsors and
the sort of things that allowed them

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to start to thrive in our community.

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And as I grew up, my
grandfather was an immigrant.

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We're so, we're removed from the immigrant
experience per se, but the, the culture

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that that followed, that was one in
which grandparents knew grandchildren and

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grandchildren were friends with cousins.

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And, and so the modeling and that.

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Combined ability to reach out yet feel
protected is something that I think is

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really well modeled in our community here.

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Now, having maintained a connection, the,
the very social, the hyper social model,

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I would argue within vast society really
is one that encourages a give and take

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at the daycare and younger age level.

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And simply by I suppose absorption
of those ideas, it just felt

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more comfortable, I think, to be
around children and to allow those

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children to drive towards their
areas of interest and and comfort.

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Whereas in a, in a group that's maybe
a little bit more nuclear family

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or family centered, where it's been
kind of gratifying or I suppose it's,

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it's been held up as a standard.

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A single adult or maybe two adults
will provide the role modeling and the

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limits and the interactions outside
of the family can be more limited.

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I think a, a community oriented upbringing
allows people to see those different

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models and to feel more comfortable
within a time where, you know, an

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8-year-old is carrying around an eight
month old and these things that, that

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don't always happen so much anymore.

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Rupert Isaacson: Is that was, that
was what was going on at your daycare.

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Mark Uranga: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Certainly.

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That's very some of that unusual Yeah.

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Rupert Isaacson: In our culture.

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Mark Uranga: Yeah.

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Quite unusual in the American
culture that even in, within many

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daycares it's, you know, the kids
under one year and then one to two.

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Yeah.

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They do a different thing 'cause
they're walking and more mobile and

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then there's this kind of napping
age and the age after kindergarten.

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So yes, it, it does
isolate those peer groups.

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Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting,
I mean, it seems to me what you are

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putting a finger on here is tribe.

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Mm-hmm.

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Would you say?

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Yeah.

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Mark Uranga: Yeah, yeah.

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And, and tribe is something that.

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Has value and has downsides.

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But I think that the, the value
in tribal upbringing, as it were,

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is that trusted adult that adds
something to what a parent's offering.

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The increasing responsibilities
that you touch on in a lot of your

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work, the, the learning that goes
along with that so that it's more an

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experiential approach to especially
social problem solving, I think.

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Rupert Isaacson: Do you feel also that
I mean not all tribes are nice tribes,

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but let's assume that you had a good
exp it, it seems that you had a good

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experience so, that this tribe is good.

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Do you feel that the Basque
community is particularly good

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at letting things be child led?

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And if so, why might that be?

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Mark Uranga: I, I do believe that and.

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Much, much more clearly in the,
the current European bas, the

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ones who are still in, in Spain
and, and somewhat in France.

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And I think that's because they want to
keep talking to their adult friends and

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let the, the children have their space.

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I think there's that recognition
that their safety mm-hmm.

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A, a given plaza or a, a shared common
space where things are safe, but there

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are, there are conflicts, there are
sharp edges, you know, there are things

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that, that scrape knees and, and hurt
feelings and, and those sorts of things.

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But they're in a, in a location where
they can recover from that with a

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still, with a feeling of, that's

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Rupert Isaacson: interesting.

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So, so why do you feel that
that kind of tribal model builds

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resilience then, as you say, so,
scrape knees and hurt feelings.

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You know, we are so shy of that stuff now.

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We, we think we, you know, people
are really quick to jump to

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immediately to trauma, you know?

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Yes.

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Rather than, and then of course, now
there's interestingly a movement coming,

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saying, well, yes, but there's a whole
kind of growth after trauma thing.

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Mm-hmm.

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You know, getting scraped me
in and hurt feeling as a kid

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isn't necessarily traumatic.

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It might be unpleasant, but it's also
kind of necessary preparation for the,

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for what we're gonna meet in the world.

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What, again, just I'm intrigued by
your experience as a basc, um mm-hmm.

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And then how this has informed
your approach to pediatrics and the

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equine assisted world, which we're
gonna come back to in a minute.

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But I do think this is
great context for people.

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'cause not everyone is coming out
of this kind of tribal background,

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particularly in the west, you know,
so you're quite unique in this way,

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and I think there's a lot to offer.

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I want to sort of mine
that vein for a while.

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So when you say sharp edges,
you know, scrape knees hurt

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feelings, but in a safe space.

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Can you, can you elucidate a bit
more on what you feel the value of

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that is and what that leads to in
adolescence and adult life for people?

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Mm-hmm.

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Mark Uranga: Yeah.

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I think that, that we have lost, that
graded did experience of living of the,

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the things that I learn where I'm not
protected, but where I can recover.

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So there's, as you mentioned, that
the trauma literature, which is an

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area that affects d different people
differently and can be expanded by its

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scope to include things that are more
an opportunity for growth in some people

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than an opportunity for destruction.

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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

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Mark Uranga: And what.

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Even within the, what I'll call allopathic
medical literature, the literature

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that's largely informed by MDs and people
with degrees and these sorts of things.

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Um hmm.

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The, the paradigm about mental health
or, or resilience does start to include

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some ideas that the practiced resilience,
the, the times that somebody had

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recovered from trauma, as it were Yes.

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Is that, is it builds that resilience.

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An example is, is well known within
pediatrics now, where children who are

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seeking an independent experience, let's
say in Idaho, maybe walking to the store

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to buy some tic-Tacs or whatever it
is, you know, as a, as a trauma focused

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society, our first thought would be cars.

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Bad people.

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What if they don't have the right change?

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All these sorts of things.

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As a resilience associated paradigm,
we look at that as the opportunity

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to to interact with somebody that
might cut in line to, to have to

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figure out the math on their own.

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And, and these early steps are the
same things that, that apply when a

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high school senior doesn't get accepted
to their number one choice of school.

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And if everything has been bubble
wrapped up until that first negative

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experience, then there's no, there's
no practice, there's not been a pattern

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of rebound that a family can, can mine
and, and then can take advantage of.

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Rupert Isaacson: It's really
interesting because, you know, there's

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a lot of talk, you know, people
tend to think in extremes and so.

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In the sort of trauma informed world,
there's also this idea of adverse

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childhood experience, you know, and,
and that this lessens the chances

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of, of success and thriving later.

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And, but what I find interesting
about that is so many of the people

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I know who do thrive, have had
adverse childhood experiences.

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And then is a scraped knee falling
out of a tree, falling off your horse,

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breaking a limb, that sort of thing,
an adverse childhood experience, or is

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that a just planet earth experience?

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Like is have we allowed trauma
and adverse experience to now?

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Become a sort of abused term that
has now sort of bled into normal

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experience so that now we are afraid
of normal experience, you know?

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Yeah.

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Just talk to us a little bit about
the dance there, psychologically and

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emotionally for the, for the sort
of, for the young growing human.

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Mark Uranga: Yeah.

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I think one of the best areas I see
that it's just so concrete, and I think

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all of us can relate to it, is the, the
child who falls in front of a parent and

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what is the message sent by the parent.

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So two years old, they trip on
their own feet, and is the response

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concern, is it overconcern, is
it on the more negative side?

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Is it mockery or something else like that?

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The, the way I can predict, not based on
the fall, how that child will react, but

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based on the parent's reaction, right?

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So the, the mechanism is, is
immaterial to the response and.

00:15:55.010 --> 00:15:59.450
That is where I get back
to the sense of safety.

00:16:00.050 --> 00:16:05.660
Like you were talking about a sharp
edge, yet a safe recovery from that.

00:16:05.660 --> 00:16:11.420
So, the child who falls and whose,
whose parent is like, oh yeah,

00:16:11.420 --> 00:16:12.710
let's get up and keep moving.

00:16:12.710 --> 00:16:15.620
Or too bad that happened, or, or
make a joke about not breaking

00:16:15.620 --> 00:16:18.710
the floor or whatever it is,
you know, they, they move on.

00:16:18.710 --> 00:16:24.560
But the, the one who's concerned
or so sad or, or anything that

00:16:24.560 --> 00:16:27.800
child is, is much more likely to
escalate based on the signals they

00:16:27.800 --> 00:16:30.920
receive from their trusted adult.

00:16:31.820 --> 00:16:40.700
And I think that getting, moving forward
as we build these patterns, we basically

00:16:40.700 --> 00:16:45.230
have experiences that are pre-verbal
and through general development.

00:16:45.785 --> 00:16:49.415
We build upon those verbal
experiences and, and our emotions.

00:16:49.835 --> 00:16:55.265
And yes, we add words to them, but in
the background and experience is usually

00:16:55.535 --> 00:16:58.565
going to elicit an emotion first.

00:16:58.655 --> 00:17:06.005
So if our experience has been to
rebound, then our first response

00:17:06.005 --> 00:17:10.835
to a lost job or the death of a
loved one is that sense of rebound.

00:17:10.835 --> 00:17:16.175
If it's, if it's been signaled
to us that those are traumas,

00:17:17.225 --> 00:17:19.385
then, then they become traumas.

00:17:19.385 --> 00:17:24.875
And I'm fortunate, I believe, to
have models in the community and

00:17:24.875 --> 00:17:30.275
in, in parents and in others where
the, the rebound is emphasized.

00:17:30.275 --> 00:17:34.865
And I think as you look at
this variability of what do we

00:17:34.865 --> 00:17:36.185
call an adverse child event?

00:17:36.185 --> 00:17:38.735
What do we call a trauma?

00:17:39.275 --> 00:17:42.065
And the response to that as you.

00:17:42.635 --> 00:17:44.795
Basically I, I'm a pediatrician.

00:17:44.795 --> 00:17:47.435
I love to think of all
people as grownup toddlers.

00:17:47.915 --> 00:17:49.175
Toddlers are just more honest.

00:17:49.415 --> 00:17:50.135
I certainly am

00:17:50.645 --> 00:17:52.115
Rupert Isaacson: in
that, in that category.

00:17:52.115 --> 00:17:53.795
I've never really stopped being a toddler.

00:17:53.795 --> 00:17:54.515
I just got bigger.

00:17:54.545 --> 00:17:54.845
Yeah.

00:17:55.115 --> 00:17:55.415
Mark Uranga: Yeah.

00:17:55.445 --> 00:17:55.775
Right.

00:17:55.775 --> 00:17:56.915
And, and it's true of all of us.

00:17:56.915 --> 00:18:00.605
Some of us embrace it and so all
more power to you, Rupert, to have em

00:18:00.665 --> 00:18:03.185
embrace that, but we have that response.

00:18:03.185 --> 00:18:04.055
Rupert Isaacson: It's civil to deny

00:18:07.595 --> 00:18:08.915
Mark Uranga: we have that response.

00:18:08.915 --> 00:18:13.745
So we move forward from that based on
our experiences and it's all practice.

00:18:14.735 --> 00:18:16.925
Rupert Isaacson: Do you feel that
this type of, this emphasis on

00:18:16.925 --> 00:18:19.285
resilience in the Basque community?

00:18:19.465 --> 00:18:19.735
I see.

00:18:19.735 --> 00:18:20.755
I'm, I'm half Jewish.

00:18:20.785 --> 00:18:25.225
I'm half Ashkenazi Jewish, and
obviously in our heritage, even

00:18:25.225 --> 00:18:28.885
though I look like a Viking,
because my mother's side is Viking.

00:18:29.005 --> 00:18:30.895
But my father's side is Ashkenazi Jewish.

00:18:30.895 --> 00:18:32.365
My father looks like Saddam Hussein.

00:18:32.365 --> 00:18:35.295
And we had this joke when they were
looking for Saddam that, you know,

00:18:35.295 --> 00:18:37.905
I was gonna show up at the Pentagon
with him, say, look, I've got him.

00:18:38.085 --> 00:18:39.705
And then he and I would
split the money, you know.

00:18:40.295 --> 00:18:45.445
But the Ashkenazi experience was
pogroms, you know, it was you know,

00:18:45.985 --> 00:18:47.545
always have to have one eye on the exit.

00:18:47.545 --> 00:18:48.505
'cause you never know.

00:18:48.985 --> 00:18:53.670
And how the, the, the more you
thrive as a community mm-hmm.

00:18:53.755 --> 00:18:57.955
The more likely it is that some
busted somewhere is gonna come

00:18:57.955 --> 00:18:59.845
along, decide to take it from you.

00:18:59.995 --> 00:19:00.085
Yep.

00:19:00.115 --> 00:19:03.475
So, and your community in a
nasty, bloody kind of a way.

00:19:03.655 --> 00:19:04.195
So you.

00:19:04.645 --> 00:19:06.145
Better kind of have options.

00:19:06.145 --> 00:19:09.475
So you want to have family and
you wanna have family in other

00:19:09.535 --> 00:19:15.445
countries and other cities so that
you've got lines of, of, of exit.

00:19:16.035 --> 00:19:21.105
And if you, if you, there's always
more of them than there are of you.

00:19:21.105 --> 00:19:22.945
So, and there is no homeland.

00:19:23.755 --> 00:19:30.175
Now you, on the other hand, come from a,
the somewhat the opposite, but mm-hmm.

00:19:30.415 --> 00:19:31.405
So there is a homeland.

00:19:31.915 --> 00:19:32.035
Yeah.

00:19:32.035 --> 00:19:34.165
However, there's lots of
invaders, you know, so.

00:19:34.165 --> 00:19:34.285
Mm-hmm.

00:19:34.615 --> 00:19:38.335
For those, for those who dunno,
their European history, everyone on

00:19:38.335 --> 00:19:42.565
their dog has tried to invade the
Basque territories at some point.

00:19:42.775 --> 00:19:43.165
Why?

00:19:43.165 --> 00:19:47.365
Because they sit at the, at a
very, very sort of strategic

00:19:47.425 --> 00:19:53.565
and fertile and pleasantly
climate juncture of the western.

00:19:53.970 --> 00:19:58.020
You know, European Atlantic right
there, sort of at the top of Portugal

00:19:58.020 --> 00:20:01.080
and Spain and the southern bit of
France, and it's jolly nice there.

00:20:01.290 --> 00:20:03.540
So anyone who ever came through
went, oh, it's nice here.

00:20:03.540 --> 00:20:04.470
I think I'll have some of that.

00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:08.250
And the mountain people living there
who, as you said, you know, were

00:20:08.250 --> 00:20:11.640
speaking a language that predates
all of these other European languages

00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:16.200
and have been there seemingly as,
as a, as a, as a, as a composite

00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:18.600
community, much, much for millennia.

00:20:19.060 --> 00:20:22.420
Despite all of these tribal migrations
going across Europe and measure, hold

00:20:22.450 --> 00:20:28.480
their own in this mountain fastness,
yet everyone tried to take it from them.

00:20:28.940 --> 00:20:31.220
And the fact that they are still
there is somewhat of a miracle.

00:20:31.225 --> 00:20:34.760
It's, it's not dissimilar to the
Kurds up there in northern Iraq

00:20:34.760 --> 00:20:35.930
and Eastern Turkey and so on.

00:20:36.380 --> 00:20:41.960
Somehow managed to hold onto that
area despite, you know, it ridiculous

00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:43.820
amounts of, of, of, of assault.

00:20:44.090 --> 00:20:50.270
So do that can create a certain
bitterness or it can create a certain.

00:20:51.310 --> 00:20:53.200
Let's seize the day and live type.

00:20:53.910 --> 00:20:59.850
And, and, and we've survived this
long, so probably we'll survive again.

00:20:59.970 --> 00:21:02.910
And from the pogrom point of view
is, well, they killed so many of us

00:21:02.910 --> 00:21:07.260
that we sort of whittled down to,
you know, the special forces now.

00:21:07.320 --> 00:21:10.020
So, you know, we're
quite good at survival.

00:21:10.290 --> 00:21:10.440
Mm-hmm.

00:21:10.985 --> 00:21:14.850
Do, do you feel that that is there,
is there a bit of a heritage that way?

00:21:14.850 --> 00:21:17.610
Like you bit the Native Americans
of Europe, of Western Europe in a

00:21:17.610 --> 00:21:18.690
funny way, you know what I mean?

00:21:18.690 --> 00:21:18.750
Yeah.

00:21:19.110 --> 00:21:19.710
Just, just mm-hmm.

00:21:19.950 --> 00:21:23.370
Talk through that idea of resilience and
survival a little bit for us before we

00:21:23.370 --> 00:21:25.620
go into actual equine assisted stuff.

00:21:26.100 --> 00:21:26.580
Mark Uranga: Sure.

00:21:26.850 --> 00:21:27.150
Yeah.

00:21:27.150 --> 00:21:30.270
I, I think you get to both of
those, having a creation story

00:21:30.870 --> 00:21:33.480
or a creation myth, depending on
how you'd like to think about it.

00:21:33.570 --> 00:21:33.600
Oh,

00:21:33.600 --> 00:21:34.050
Rupert Isaacson: go on.

00:21:34.050 --> 00:21:34.230
That's

00:21:34.230 --> 00:21:34.740
Mark Uranga: interesting.

00:21:35.075 --> 00:21:37.020
The, the creation story.

00:21:37.380 --> 00:21:38.850
We all have a creation story.

00:21:38.850 --> 00:21:43.830
I, I love the, the nexus
of how my creation story.

00:21:44.190 --> 00:21:47.610
Interact with the creation
story of the Idaho Basques or

00:21:47.610 --> 00:21:49.830
the, the Basque country itself.

00:21:50.190 --> 00:21:57.410
Your story of migration continuing
as long as written Torah stories were

00:21:57.410 --> 00:22:01.835
placed, the, the Jews were on the
move, and you've moved from South

00:22:01.835 --> 00:22:06.470
Africa confidently to, to Germany and,
and how we each fit in these stories.

00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:12.950
The relationship, I believe to, to
parenting and pediatrics lies in a

00:22:12.950 --> 00:22:17.430
concept of what is called authoritative
parenting, not authoritarian author.

00:22:17.430 --> 00:22:17.870
Author parenting.

00:22:18.410 --> 00:22:18.920
Yeah.

00:22:19.370 --> 00:22:19.700
Okay.

00:22:19.700 --> 00:22:22.280
How is that different from
authoritarian Exactly.

00:22:22.280 --> 00:22:27.390
So, and different from passive
parenting or permissive parenting.

00:22:27.900 --> 00:22:35.760
The middle ground is that which recognizes
the variability of a child and does

00:22:35.760 --> 00:22:41.580
not force upon them certain things, but
provides the background, the framework.

00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:45.240
From which a child essentially
defines themselves.

00:22:45.540 --> 00:22:52.890
So whether that definition is in
contrast to the family expectations

00:22:52.950 --> 00:22:58.350
or in alignment, there's still a
foundation that's provided with that.

00:22:58.860 --> 00:23:05.910
So the, the idea being that a family
exists within a community, a community

00:23:05.910 --> 00:23:13.680
of, of basks is, defines themselves
as partly stubborn, quite social very

00:23:13.830 --> 00:23:18.600
committed to their shared background.

00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:28.680
And within that BASC community, defining
our family as being committed to each

00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:33.930
other, having a shared background and
being somewhat stubborn or persistent,

00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:38.250
those allow for our children to consider.

00:23:39.945 --> 00:23:45.225
A model that is either in tune with
their growth or in contrast with that.

00:23:45.885 --> 00:23:49.515
And, and, you know, all communities
have their rebels or their black

00:23:49.515 --> 00:23:53.385
sheep, and those people are equally
as defined by their community.

00:23:53.385 --> 00:23:59.985
I think where it provides that foundation,
there's a little bit less wallowing

00:23:59.985 --> 00:24:02.505
around for who am I or what am I?

00:24:03.225 --> 00:24:09.255
So where we see that, I think breakdown
in a community or in permissive parenting,

00:24:09.825 --> 00:24:19.455
what can happen is that a child lacks the
tools to discern largely right or wrong

00:24:19.815 --> 00:24:27.165
because somebody is, is just following
the child without that bigger view of

00:24:27.165 --> 00:24:34.065
a goal in mind or an ideal per chance
or, or however we choose to define that.

00:24:34.065 --> 00:24:37.785
So they, those, those children
can kind of cast about thinking.

00:24:38.775 --> 00:24:40.665
At two.

00:24:40.665 --> 00:24:44.475
Is it okay for me to throw food
all over and yell at mom and dad?

00:24:44.475 --> 00:24:46.035
Or is it not okay?

00:24:46.035 --> 00:24:49.695
And when I get to be four and five,
maybe I can do the same thing to my

00:24:49.695 --> 00:24:56.085
teachers, and why would I expect to
follow the, the laws when I'm 15 and 16?

00:24:56.085 --> 00:25:03.975
And, and, and lacking that experience,
that kind of defined set of values can

00:25:03.975 --> 00:25:11.145
really lead kids to, to place of anxiety
or kind of driftless experimentation.

00:25:11.955 --> 00:25:17.385
Whereas kinda getting back to the idea
of how a community defines itself,

00:25:17.980 --> 00:25:19.155
itself, you're absolutely right.

00:25:19.155 --> 00:25:24.225
As you mentioned earlier, some tribes
are not all good guys, as it were.

00:25:24.495 --> 00:25:33.375
And, and yet if a, if a child is
given that experience within a, a

00:25:33.375 --> 00:25:36.615
tribe of, of learning, then from the
outside world that, oh, that life is.

00:25:36.975 --> 00:25:41.715
Better or different, they're
still able to contrast that

00:25:42.165 --> 00:25:43.815
to their, to their background.

00:25:44.265 --> 00:25:47.355
So I'm not sure if that
gets entirely to the idea.

00:25:47.355 --> 00:25:47.445
Well,

00:25:47.955 --> 00:25:48.255
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:25:48.255 --> 00:25:51.345
The, the, the question's also about,
I think it's, it's really good for

00:25:51.345 --> 00:25:57.500
people to have a clear idea about
authoritative versus authoritarian.

00:25:58.000 --> 00:25:58.935
Can you just define that?

00:25:58.935 --> 00:26:00.525
And then I want to go to follow the child.

00:26:00.555 --> 00:26:03.375
'cause as, you know, follow the
child is one of our, you know,

00:26:03.375 --> 00:26:05.025
prerequisites within the work we do.

00:26:05.355 --> 00:26:08.685
But yes, it's not follow the child
aimlessly, it's follow the child.

00:26:08.685 --> 00:26:08.925
Exactly.

00:26:08.925 --> 00:26:11.235
Because someone isn't speaking.

00:26:11.505 --> 00:26:15.340
So you're not there to, if you're
not there to observe, then Uhhuh

00:26:15.525 --> 00:26:16.875
you haven't got much to go on.

00:26:17.205 --> 00:26:19.305
And you need to follow
what motivates people.

00:26:19.305 --> 00:26:21.585
And, and, and that is true
whether they're speaking or not.

00:26:21.585 --> 00:26:25.695
If you don't follow what motivates
them, then you are in conflict.

00:26:25.935 --> 00:26:26.745
Um mm-hmm.

00:26:26.751 --> 00:26:26.830
But.

00:26:27.615 --> 00:26:31.095
And, and, and authoritarian
to me is defined by conflict.

00:26:31.125 --> 00:26:32.025
You know, it's mm-hmm.

00:26:32.370 --> 00:26:36.480
I, I grew up, not with my own family,
but with the school system that I went

00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:39.100
through a very, very authoritarian mm-hmm.

00:26:39.670 --> 00:26:40.150
System.

00:26:40.150 --> 00:26:43.420
It's interesting, you know, I meet
conservative Americans and they meet

00:26:43.420 --> 00:26:46.360
me and they think, oh, you're such a
hippie as like, you have no idea what

00:26:46.390 --> 00:26:47.920
auth, what conservative really is.

00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:51.580
You know, you, if you'd gone through the
school system that I went through Yes.

00:26:51.580 --> 00:26:56.260
Where we were beaten, you know, daily,
and we were all in the military and we

00:26:56.260 --> 00:26:59.050
were all, you know, it, it very different.

00:26:59.050 --> 00:27:00.220
Very, very different.

00:27:00.220 --> 00:27:01.690
Very violent, very, you know, blah, blah.

00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:01.960
Okay.

00:27:01.960 --> 00:27:04.120
But all that aside, it was authoritarian.

00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:08.800
And so what it meant was that the,
there were, there were two things that

00:27:08.800 --> 00:27:12.070
designed the school system, de defined
the school system I went through.

00:27:12.280 --> 00:27:16.690
One was that they said, you are all
or you boys are going to, 'cause

00:27:16.690 --> 00:27:19.450
it was only boys are going to be
in competition with each other.

00:27:19.840 --> 00:27:22.300
We are going to set you into
competition with each other,

00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:23.425
which means some of you will fail.

00:27:25.095 --> 00:27:29.240
And they, they were saying this to
you at age 11 and we're gonna break

00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:33.890
you down so that we can then build
you up and give you privileges later.

00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:35.000
Mm-hmm.

00:27:35.510 --> 00:27:36.470
Why would they do that?

00:27:36.470 --> 00:27:40.310
Well, they would do that so
that a hundred years ago people

00:27:40.310 --> 00:27:41.720
might go out and run the empire.

00:27:42.170 --> 00:27:47.720
And that was creating an officer class
where people would go and sort of with

00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:55.220
both a sense of personal confidence and
a sense of absolute belief in the system,

00:27:55.520 --> 00:28:01.520
go and sort of die of malaria in the
Sudan age 30 while trying to administer an

00:28:01.520 --> 00:28:05.390
area four times the size of Germany, you
know, just one province and deal with the

00:28:05.390 --> 00:28:08.840
tribal wars and this and that and do, and
have the kind of resilience to do that.

00:28:09.020 --> 00:28:12.980
But there would be a wastage, and you
saw this wastage also happening in sort

00:28:12.980 --> 00:28:17.840
of World War I where the officer classed
the young officers first over the trench.

00:28:17.840 --> 00:28:20.960
You were supposed to inspire
the, I say the average.

00:28:21.380 --> 00:28:25.180
Average lifespan, you know, of a
young officer in World War One, in the

00:28:25.180 --> 00:28:28.620
British Army was six weeks, you know,
because you had to be first over the

00:28:28.620 --> 00:28:30.210
lip of the trench and so on and so on.

00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:35.730
However, those that survived would then
become the building blocks of the empire.

00:28:35.970 --> 00:28:38.420
And you can see how that
worked very well for the people

00:28:38.420 --> 00:28:39.830
that were running the empire.

00:28:39.860 --> 00:28:44.060
You, you, you needed a group of people
like this, but what it meant was that

00:28:44.780 --> 00:28:48.200
at the bottom line, if you bucked the
system, if you said, I don't really

00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:51.920
want to follow these particular rules,
you were met with violence immediately.

00:28:51.990 --> 00:28:53.010
That it was, it.

00:28:53.160 --> 00:28:58.770
So if you were going to go against
the authority in any way, it was

00:28:58.770 --> 00:29:00.750
instantly physically violent.

00:29:00.840 --> 00:29:07.890
And what a lot of us learned was to
actually cope with that and to say,

00:29:07.950 --> 00:29:09.480
Ooh, actually I can survive that.

00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:10.980
And.

00:29:11.475 --> 00:29:13.155
Now, what are you gonna do?

00:29:13.245 --> 00:29:15.615
You know, because now
I'm not afraid anymore.

00:29:15.795 --> 00:29:18.765
However, there were others who
were completely destroyed by it.

00:29:19.125 --> 00:29:23.715
So as obs, you know, I observed
this growing up and thought, well,

00:29:24.375 --> 00:29:26.205
there has to be a better way.

00:29:26.625 --> 00:29:31.155
And so when you use the
word authoritative, I like,

00:29:31.185 --> 00:29:32.355
and I'm intrigued by that.

00:29:32.355 --> 00:29:36.495
Could you, could you explain really to
your, what we, we can, I think we can

00:29:36.495 --> 00:29:40.335
understand what authoritative means
but au sorry, what authoritarian means.

00:29:40.340 --> 00:29:40.590
Right.

00:29:40.595 --> 00:29:42.585
But let's go to authoritative.

00:29:44.115 --> 00:29:49.870
Mark Uranga: The idea of an authoritative
parenting model or community for that

00:29:49.870 --> 00:29:56.235
matter, really, is that there's an,
there's an expectation, there's a, a

00:29:56.235 --> 00:30:01.155
standard that we might move toward.

00:30:01.365 --> 00:30:04.905
It is a model that allows.

00:30:05.685 --> 00:30:09.255
For the ex exploration that you
might think of with a permissive,

00:30:09.555 --> 00:30:11.025
permissive parenting model.

00:30:11.355 --> 00:30:17.895
But when, but when that child turns
to the parent, to the community to

00:30:17.895 --> 00:30:21.525
look for an answer that they don't,
they truly do want an answer for,

00:30:21.765 --> 00:30:23.325
they're looking for assistance.

00:30:23.655 --> 00:30:25.305
It's willing to provide that.

00:30:25.845 --> 00:30:32.295
Whereas a permissive parenting model
kind of renes on that responsibility, you

00:30:32.295 --> 00:30:40.065
have a, an underdeveloped brain or person
coming to you looking for an answer.

00:30:40.065 --> 00:30:47.605
And with a permissive model, it's a
reflective, let's say well, should I have,

00:30:47.695 --> 00:30:50.065
should I have a cookie or an Apple mom?

00:30:50.065 --> 00:30:51.235
Should I have a cookie or an Apple dad?

00:30:51.235 --> 00:30:51.745
Should I have a cookie?

00:30:51.745 --> 00:30:55.345
And Apple, a truly permissive
parenting model, would say,

00:30:55.585 --> 00:30:56.755
well, what would you like?

00:30:57.325 --> 00:31:01.315
Well, with food engineering
being what it is, it's a cookie.

00:31:02.110 --> 00:31:08.020
With a, with an author authoritative
model, it would be, I think an apple's

00:31:08.020 --> 00:31:12.040
gonna make you feel healthier, or I
think you should start with an apple.

00:31:12.040 --> 00:31:18.580
It's, it's offering that guidance
where it's due, and ultimately all

00:31:18.580 --> 00:31:22.450
of us look for some structure there.

00:31:22.550 --> 00:31:24.560
We are not living in an anarchy.

00:31:24.680 --> 00:31:28.790
You and I would like to go through a green
light thinking that somebody is not gonna

00:31:28.790 --> 00:31:30.470
drive through the red light, you know?

00:31:30.470 --> 00:31:30.530
Yeah.

00:31:30.590 --> 00:31:35.810
There are clearly levels of these,
but what, what the authoritative

00:31:35.990 --> 00:31:41.480
model provides is it gets a little
back to that safety as well.

00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:46.070
Like if I'm lost, if I'm casting
about, I can provide you something

00:31:46.670 --> 00:31:51.860
that will provide you comfort
or safety in the longer term.

00:31:52.340 --> 00:31:52.580
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:31:52.580 --> 00:31:56.360
It, it, I was writing, I wrote a
note here as you were, it, it sounds

00:31:56.360 --> 00:31:58.980
to me like you're talking about
service to the community that mm-hmm.

00:31:59.495 --> 00:32:01.175
First, there's the idea
of what serves you.

00:32:01.175 --> 00:32:02.855
So do I have the cookie or the apple?

00:32:03.185 --> 00:32:07.235
You know, so my, my answer to that would
be, I totally get why you want the cookie.

00:32:07.745 --> 00:32:07.835
Mm-hmm.

00:32:07.835 --> 00:32:08.765
I want the cookie too.

00:32:09.155 --> 00:32:09.215
Yeah.

00:32:09.215 --> 00:32:10.175
And there will be cookies.

00:32:10.445 --> 00:32:10.955
Don't worry.

00:32:10.985 --> 00:32:11.225
Yeah.

00:32:11.315 --> 00:32:12.065
There will be cookies.

00:32:12.065 --> 00:32:12.155
Mm-hmm.

00:32:12.185 --> 00:32:14.615
However, maybe not those cookies.

00:32:14.645 --> 00:32:16.355
'cause those cookies are full of shit.

00:32:17.115 --> 00:32:17.125
Right.

00:32:17.415 --> 00:32:18.645
But how about these cookies?

00:32:18.645 --> 00:32:21.765
But before we have those cookies,
let's talk about the apple.

00:32:21.915 --> 00:32:24.705
Now, I'm not going to force
you to have the apple.

00:32:24.825 --> 00:32:29.005
Right, but look, I'm gonna have
the apple and what if we had both?

00:32:29.005 --> 00:32:30.355
What about apple and cookie?

00:32:30.355 --> 00:32:30.955
How about that?

00:32:31.015 --> 00:32:34.615
You know, and then I would be
prepared with, to go through a

00:32:34.615 --> 00:32:36.220
certain amount of, nah, nah, nah.

00:32:36.415 --> 00:32:37.735
Because I have the same Nah.

00:32:37.735 --> 00:32:38.485
Inside me.

00:32:38.485 --> 00:32:41.455
So I, you know, I'm, I'm not gonna
say someone else shouldn't have it.

00:32:41.905 --> 00:32:44.365
But at the same time, I would
take a slightly humorous approach

00:32:44.365 --> 00:32:46.945
to that and say, look, but, and
also sympathetic, like, I get it.

00:32:47.545 --> 00:32:48.145
I get it.

00:32:48.475 --> 00:32:51.625
They've marketed these cookies to
us and, and we are driven by sugar.

00:32:52.300 --> 00:32:52.600
Yeah.

00:32:52.600 --> 00:32:56.170
So of course you want it, but why
don't we also have this apple as well?

00:32:56.410 --> 00:33:00.610
And I would hope that with that continued
thing and, and say one, you know,

00:33:00.610 --> 00:33:02.080
there, there's gonna be no force here.

00:33:02.290 --> 00:33:05.410
There's gonna be no, you
must have the apple or Right.

00:33:05.530 --> 00:33:07.660
There'll be some sort
of terrible consequence.

00:33:07.750 --> 00:33:08.050
Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

00:33:08.200 --> 00:33:10.990
Rupert Isaacson: But as you say,
the cookie may not, may make you

00:33:10.990 --> 00:33:13.750
not feel so good and you know, maybe
you need to go through that feeling.

00:33:14.350 --> 00:33:14.470
Mark Uranga: Yeah.

00:33:14.560 --> 00:33:16.390
Rupert Isaacson: And when you go
through that feeling, then I'm

00:33:16.390 --> 00:33:17.620
still here with the apple, you know?

00:33:17.860 --> 00:33:18.400
Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

00:33:18.590 --> 00:33:19.760
Rupert Isaacson: And someone will
say, well, Ruper, why don't you

00:33:19.760 --> 00:33:20.870
just tell them to have the apple?

00:33:20.870 --> 00:33:22.820
Is that because, because
then, because then the cookie

00:33:22.820 --> 00:33:24.410
becomes a holy grail, you know?

00:33:24.410 --> 00:33:24.860
Exactly.

00:33:24.950 --> 00:33:30.380
And so, you know, how you tread
the line between permissive

00:33:30.380 --> 00:33:31.610
and authoritative mm-hmm.

00:33:31.910 --> 00:33:36.395
Seems to me about what serves you best.

00:33:36.395 --> 00:33:36.715
Mm-hmm.

00:33:36.925 --> 00:33:37.275
Right.

00:33:37.295 --> 00:33:41.240
And if you can appeal to the child
to say, well, what's in the child's

00:33:41.240 --> 00:33:44.870
best interest on the end of the,
and then clearly mom and dad are

00:33:45.110 --> 00:33:50.240
thinking about my best interest
then is it a sort of logical thing?

00:33:50.765 --> 00:33:55.415
For me to think about the best interest
of the community, the family, and Right.

00:33:56.225 --> 00:34:01.115
The, the note that I took there
is, is service to the community,

00:34:01.985 --> 00:34:04.955
what actually provides for
happiness and fulfillment in life.

00:34:06.605 --> 00:34:06.995
Mark Uranga: Yeah.

00:34:06.995 --> 00:34:13.335
I think that evidence about that is, is
increasing in a way that just makes a

00:34:13.335 --> 00:34:20.235
lot of sense when you have a, a community
and an evolutionary perspective that

00:34:20.335 --> 00:34:25.925
shares resources or serves each other
when we were all just barely scraping by

00:34:25.925 --> 00:34:27.965
and caves are on a Savannah or whatever.

00:34:27.965 --> 00:34:34.485
Those, those, what people call selfish
genes do replicate by, by providing

00:34:34.485 --> 00:34:40.125
that service, there's the evidence
surrounding a sense of fulfillment

00:34:40.815 --> 00:34:44.025
is universally supportive of.

00:34:45.210 --> 00:34:50.370
A sense of service or commitment or
attunement or any of these sorts of

00:34:50.370 --> 00:34:59.530
connection sort of ideas that when
we can place a child in, help them

00:34:59.530 --> 00:35:02.260
find their place in that world.

00:35:03.460 --> 00:35:07.750
I think a lot of the, the work that
you share about experiences with hunter

00:35:07.750 --> 00:35:11.530
gatherers and these sorts of things,
these are very concrete contributions

00:35:11.530 --> 00:35:13.660
that children make at a small age.

00:35:14.350 --> 00:35:21.640
And their sense of attachment is, is
so much more community focused than our

00:35:21.640 --> 00:35:28.060
world where it's in a, in a generally
speaking western world where we have

00:35:29.800 --> 00:35:32.170
work to do, that's specialized work.

00:35:32.170 --> 00:35:38.020
We have bills to pay that are, you
know, technical and we have projects

00:35:38.020 --> 00:35:39.820
to do that are too skilled then.

00:35:40.375 --> 00:35:42.685
Then the child feels a little isolated.

00:35:42.685 --> 00:35:49.735
They lack that sense of service and
their, their kind of drive for that

00:35:50.275 --> 00:35:51.745
leads them to look for attention.

00:35:51.745 --> 00:35:59.365
That, that I think, often we wrongly
think is attention that wants play or

00:35:59.785 --> 00:36:05.185
immediate gratification, whereas that
attention seeking that's so hardwired

00:36:06.115 --> 00:36:10.105
is about finding that attunement,
finding that connection and then that

00:36:10.105 --> 00:36:16.255
safety that I can do these things and,
and somebody's with me and watching

00:36:16.255 --> 00:36:17.755
me and helping me through those.

00:36:18.510 --> 00:36:18.860
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:36:18.965 --> 00:36:24.095
You know, I guess in the old days we had,
although, you know, we, we didn't grow

00:36:24.095 --> 00:36:29.445
up in hunter gatherer community, sadly,
where absolutely the, the community,

00:36:29.445 --> 00:36:31.065
everyone's in service to the community.

00:36:31.425 --> 00:36:34.035
But two generations ago.

00:36:34.425 --> 00:36:39.825
Most people were growing up in some sort
of family business, family farm family,

00:36:39.825 --> 00:36:41.475
you know, or not most, but certainly many.

00:36:41.985 --> 00:36:42.285
Mm-hmm.

00:36:42.525 --> 00:36:46.455
With kids being included
in what was going on.

00:36:47.385 --> 00:36:50.115
Maybe they wanted to, maybe
they didn't, but they were

00:36:50.115 --> 00:36:51.615
certainly included, you know?

00:36:51.615 --> 00:36:52.455
Mm-hmm.

00:36:52.461 --> 00:36:59.565
And they were skilled from quite an
early age in not just the physical or

00:36:59.565 --> 00:37:07.215
mental competences required in the family
tailoring business or the family farm, but

00:37:07.215 --> 00:37:12.830
also the financials and the economics and
the balancing the books and the mm-hmm.

00:37:13.095 --> 00:37:17.115
You know, I've got to buy in this amount
of feed and fertilizer or this amount

00:37:17.115 --> 00:37:22.345
of cloth and, and you know, needles and
balance it against, you know, mm-hmm.

00:37:22.585 --> 00:37:22.905
Blah, blah, blah.

00:37:23.195 --> 00:37:25.085
And that of course seems to
have gone, you know, that, that,

00:37:25.085 --> 00:37:29.135
that now, barring very few.

00:37:29.855 --> 00:37:34.325
Sort of isolated communities or people
that are just lucky enough to grow up

00:37:34.715 --> 00:37:36.755
in certain types of family business.

00:37:37.265 --> 00:37:41.945
Now the family farm, it, it's, it's
something that almost exists in myth now.

00:37:42.275 --> 00:37:47.015
You used twice in the last five
to 10 minutes the word attunement.

00:37:47.105 --> 00:37:47.945
Attunement.

00:37:47.950 --> 00:37:48.170
Mm-hmm.

00:37:48.340 --> 00:37:48.690
Right?

00:37:48.695 --> 00:37:53.405
And this is a word which many of, many of
the people who listen to this podcast also

00:37:53.405 --> 00:37:58.475
listen to Warwick Schiller and Warwick
Schiller uses the word attunement a lot.

00:37:58.955 --> 00:38:05.515
And those of you who listen to l Leanna
Tanks podcast where she's talking

00:38:05.515 --> 00:38:10.225
about the use of attunement with
working with the criminally insane.

00:38:10.945 --> 00:38:13.825
And how that's, if you haven't
heard that one, by the way,

00:38:13.825 --> 00:38:15.025
listeners, you've gotta go back and.

00:38:15.775 --> 00:38:17.485
Find Leanna Tank's interview.

00:38:17.485 --> 00:38:21.145
It's, it's, it's, it's meaningful and
there's a lot in there that helps us all.

00:38:21.895 --> 00:38:28.885
What do you mean Mark by attunement and
what should we understand from this term?

00:38:31.165 --> 00:38:35.100
Mark Uranga: Well, yeah, I, I lean
heavily on, on Warwick chillers

00:38:35.485 --> 00:38:42.175
shorthand, which he always de, he
describes as being seen, being heard,

00:38:42.235 --> 00:38:44.065
feeling, felt, and getting gotten.

00:38:44.875 --> 00:38:50.375
And the first parts of
that are, are very sensory.

00:38:50.675 --> 00:38:57.065
So they are and again, with toddlers
in my life every day, I, I always

00:38:57.065 --> 00:39:03.365
think of the toddler model when, when
a toddler approaches me, do I look at

00:39:03.365 --> 00:39:06.665
them or am I seeing what they're doing?

00:39:06.725 --> 00:39:11.165
When, when I come into the room,
does the toddler turn from me?

00:39:11.510 --> 00:39:17.120
Do they make nonverbal cues
that, that they're concerned?

00:39:18.020 --> 00:39:21.920
And again, I just think toddlers
are honest people, whereas the

00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:25.730
rest of us have this overlay of
politeness and what should I do?

00:39:25.730 --> 00:39:26.720
And these sorts of things.

00:39:26.720 --> 00:39:30.740
Yet we signal these things
as well, without a doubt

00:39:31.190 --> 00:39:32.660
as we talk to other people.

00:39:33.170 --> 00:39:41.780
And the idea of attunement is, is with
toddlers, with mules, with horses is

00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:47.360
that awareness that is not verbal.

00:39:47.580 --> 00:39:53.180
I think that it can have a verbal
overlay, but the richest attunement

00:39:53.360 --> 00:39:59.060
with adults as well is, is more of
a nonverbal, sort of a, of a dance.

00:39:59.060 --> 00:40:06.620
And the, the role that that
plays in, in my life is.

00:40:08.030 --> 00:40:13.550
Again, 20 times a day I enter a room and
I could have a kid that's gregarious, a

00:40:13.550 --> 00:40:16.790
kid that's hungry, a kid that was just
told they can't be on their phone or

00:40:17.510 --> 00:40:24.620
within, within moments, their physical
reaction to me informs which way I go.

00:40:24.740 --> 00:40:28.970
Are they already goofy and do
they want me to make jokes?

00:40:29.030 --> 00:40:30.620
Are they quiet?

00:40:30.620 --> 00:40:33.560
Do they want me to use a quiet voice?

00:40:33.560 --> 00:40:38.210
Do they do I see that their shoes
light up and they want to jump up in

00:40:38.210 --> 00:40:39.890
the ground, up and down on the ground?

00:40:40.520 --> 00:40:49.670
And when a child has that sense of being
seen, then they can start to develop

00:40:49.910 --> 00:40:55.820
a sense of comfort and safety and move
away from that protective stance that

00:40:56.300 --> 00:41:00.800
the stranger danger that's typically
going to accompany at least a physician

00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:03.110
visit, but often any other new adult.

00:41:05.645 --> 00:41:08.075
Rupert Isaacson: That's brilliantly put.

00:41:08.135 --> 00:41:10.415
I think you answered it
incredibly succinctly.

00:41:10.440 --> 00:41:16.265
The, the nonverbal cues which
we learn through horses really,

00:41:16.265 --> 00:41:20.195
really help us with the nonverbal
cues with our fellow monkeys.

00:41:20.805 --> 00:41:24.015
And ultimately our fellow monkeys are
much more dangerous than our horses are.

00:41:24.565 --> 00:41:28.855
You've used the, you've referred
to the word stubborn quite

00:41:28.855 --> 00:41:30.325
a few times as well, right?

00:41:30.565 --> 00:41:34.675
And you, you stubborn with the
bass community, but you seem to

00:41:34.675 --> 00:41:36.865
have referred to it as a positive.

00:41:37.555 --> 00:41:37.705
Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

00:41:37.975 --> 00:41:41.005
Rupert Isaacson: You've also
now included the word mule

00:41:41.815 --> 00:41:42.535
Mark Uranga: and,

00:41:42.645 --> 00:41:46.545
Rupert Isaacson: I know you as a
handler of a very good mule that

00:41:46.545 --> 00:41:49.215
I was lucky enough to meet when we
were doing some training together.

00:41:49.485 --> 00:41:50.805
I wouldn't say that Mule was stubborn.

00:41:51.315 --> 00:41:55.395
I would say that Mule was, was a
hundred percent present and cooperative.

00:41:55.395 --> 00:41:59.385
I wouldn't have wanted to make that
mule do anything it didn't want to do.

00:41:59.775 --> 00:42:02.295
But I wouldn't wanna make any
equine or human do something

00:42:02.295 --> 00:42:03.225
they wouldn't want to do.

00:42:03.705 --> 00:42:10.875
But nonetheless, you, you, you've sort
of gone bask stubborn mule in your life.

00:42:11.595 --> 00:42:12.915
Talk to us about that.

00:42:12.915 --> 00:42:14.475
Why have you gone for mules?

00:42:14.775 --> 00:42:16.725
Why do you feel stubborn is good?

00:42:17.025 --> 00:42:18.555
What do you mean by stubborn?

00:42:18.555 --> 00:42:20.805
Because people have different
meanings around that word.

00:42:21.285 --> 00:42:23.115
And then talk to us a
little bit about mules.

00:42:24.345 --> 00:42:24.705
Mark Uranga: Yeah.

00:42:24.705 --> 00:42:29.785
I, I use stubborn as
you picked up with it.

00:42:30.285 --> 00:42:33.885
Some sense of pride,
some, some sense of irony.

00:42:34.215 --> 00:42:38.365
It's, it's obviously quite
close to persistence and okay.

00:42:38.455 --> 00:42:39.715
Rupert Isaacson: Perseverance, perhaps

00:42:39.805 --> 00:42:42.415
Mark Uranga: perseverance,
persistence, stubbornness.

00:42:42.955 --> 00:42:43.405
And it just

00:42:43.615 --> 00:42:44.125
Rupert Isaacson: mountain people.

00:42:44.215 --> 00:42:44.905
You don't give up.

00:42:46.121 --> 00:42:48.961
If you're in the equine assisted
field, or if you're considering

00:42:48.961 --> 00:42:52.881
a career in the equine assisted
field, you might want to consider

00:42:52.951 --> 00:42:57.221
taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

00:42:57.281 --> 00:43:02.861
Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

00:43:03.456 --> 00:43:09.766
Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

00:43:09.766 --> 00:43:12.436
developed in conjunction with Dr.

00:43:12.436 --> 00:43:15.316
Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

00:43:15.656 --> 00:43:18.926
We work in the saddle
with younger children.

00:43:19.421 --> 00:43:24.371
Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

00:43:25.031 --> 00:43:26.471
It works incredibly well.

00:43:26.471 --> 00:43:28.191
It's now in about 40 countries.

00:43:28.901 --> 00:43:29.651
Check it out.

00:43:30.331 --> 00:43:34.481
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

00:43:34.491 --> 00:43:37.861
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

00:43:37.861 --> 00:43:39.611
applied in schools, in homes.

00:43:39.811 --> 00:43:44.801
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

00:43:44.801 --> 00:43:46.341
at home that will create neuroplasticity.

00:43:47.696 --> 00:43:48.976
when they're not with you.

00:43:49.486 --> 00:43:52.926
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

00:43:53.286 --> 00:43:55.906
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

00:43:55.906 --> 00:43:59.906
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

00:43:59.936 --> 00:44:04.226
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

00:44:04.666 --> 00:44:08.006
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

00:44:08.026 --> 00:44:12.266
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

00:44:12.466 --> 00:44:16.756
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

00:44:16.756 --> 00:44:20.056
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

00:44:20.056 --> 00:44:23.151
need, as well as Serving my clients.

00:44:23.391 --> 00:44:27.891
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

00:44:28.221 --> 00:44:29.871
absolutely gives you this.

00:44:34.931 --> 00:44:35.471
Mark Uranga: Yes.

00:44:35.981 --> 00:44:36.491
Yeah.

00:44:36.496 --> 00:44:42.101
So the reason I like to lead
with stubbornness is because

00:44:42.101 --> 00:44:43.331
of the baggage that it has.

00:44:43.331 --> 00:44:49.331
Yet we flip the idea to persistent
and all of a sudden to perseverance

00:44:49.391 --> 00:44:51.101
all of a sudden this is an attribute.

00:44:51.101 --> 00:44:51.371
Right.

00:44:51.371 --> 00:44:55.151
And I suppose it's the goal
to which that's directed.

00:44:55.491 --> 00:44:59.631
The, we, we talked about
creation myths and the idea that.

00:45:00.051 --> 00:45:03.111
The Basque people would be stubborn
enough to run off the Romans and

00:45:03.111 --> 00:45:06.901
to stop the Moors as they came
up across from southern Spain and

00:45:06.901 --> 00:45:10.111
Rupert Isaacson: Charlemagne and the
Franks and everyone, everyone had to go

00:45:10.711 --> 00:45:13.711
the vi goth, the vandals, whoever it is.

00:45:13.716 --> 00:45:13.956
Yeah,

00:45:14.011 --> 00:45:14.341
Mark Uranga: yeah.

00:45:15.361 --> 00:45:20.521
So, so it, it comes to define that
group and the mule I know you have

00:45:20.881 --> 00:45:24.361
listeners of, of all backgrounds,
and it's always fun to, to step

00:45:24.361 --> 00:45:27.181
back to the, the making of a mule.

00:45:27.961 --> 00:45:33.331
A mule is the product of a male donkey,
a jack, and a female horse, a mare.

00:45:33.691 --> 00:45:37.141
There can be a converse, which
could be a hiney, which is a

00:45:37.141 --> 00:45:39.361
female donkey and a male horse.

00:45:39.721 --> 00:45:43.231
But the vast majority
of hybrids are mules.

00:45:43.291 --> 00:45:50.671
And the mule in our life has the value
of being one of the most surefooted

00:45:51.031 --> 00:45:53.131
of the equines in the mountains.

00:45:53.161 --> 00:45:54.901
So Idaho has.

00:45:55.306 --> 00:45:59.776
The largest wilderness area within
the contiguous 48, the lower

00:45:59.776 --> 00:46:02.206
48 states as it were in area.

00:46:02.206 --> 00:46:06.766
I've been lucky to move through as we
talked about movement and experiences.

00:46:06.766 --> 00:46:06.856
Mm-hmm.

00:46:06.986 --> 00:46:10.876
As hunter gatherers, I've shared those
experiences with many people in many ways.

00:46:11.746 --> 00:46:17.461
And as our family got into equines
that lure to be able to safely

00:46:17.671 --> 00:46:21.901
travel through rugged country is
what drew us to work with mules.

00:46:22.501 --> 00:46:28.171
And the, that stubbornness is
also a sense of self preservation.

00:46:28.171 --> 00:46:33.511
So the background of the donkey
is more a mountainous breed to be

00:46:33.511 --> 00:46:38.011
around cliffs and other places where
standing their ground was an option.

00:46:38.551 --> 00:46:46.631
And it was not the steps of Asia where
flight is always the survival mechanism.

00:46:47.231 --> 00:46:48.881
So the mule.

00:46:49.466 --> 00:46:54.356
And we, we get the pause,
the stubbornness as it were.

00:46:54.776 --> 00:46:58.676
And, and I remind myself and my
kids that, that we want this in

00:46:58.676 --> 00:47:02.666
our mules because their sense of
self preservation keeps us safe.

00:47:03.506 --> 00:47:08.876
And I think one of the fun things that
I've come to learn, we, in our family,

00:47:08.876 --> 00:47:14.006
we have a, a Navajo pony, we have an
appaloosa horse, we have a mule, two

00:47:14.006 --> 00:47:22.206
mules one of which may or may not be a
Henny, but those, the mule will pause.

00:47:23.076 --> 00:47:30.436
And usually with the attunement that we
have developed, carry on for example,

00:47:30.736 --> 00:47:35.556
through a goalie that maybe smells
a coyote or through something that's

00:47:35.556 --> 00:47:40.386
changed in the environment from when they
walked out to when they walked back the

00:47:40.386 --> 00:47:45.036
horse, our ponies, there are times where
we will use them to lead because they.

00:47:45.576 --> 00:47:49.686
Again, with that attunement that
we've built, we'll be willing to

00:47:49.686 --> 00:47:53.436
override their sense of hesitation
to try to move through something.

00:47:54.126 --> 00:47:59.406
Whereas the value of the mule in our
area is really to take that pause.

00:47:59.826 --> 00:48:03.486
They see all four feet and they
can move slowly and and safely

00:48:03.486 --> 00:48:04.926
through those environments.

00:48:05.316 --> 00:48:12.456
And Sam came to us as a, a purposefully
bred mule who lived with a, his previous

00:48:12.456 --> 00:48:16.176
owner for 20 years approximately.

00:48:16.176 --> 00:48:19.326
And the time you saw
him, he was 27 and Wow.

00:48:19.656 --> 00:48:19.926
Wow.

00:48:20.616 --> 00:48:21.606
He looked so good.

00:48:22.086 --> 00:48:22.931
Yeah, he looked so good.

00:48:23.316 --> 00:48:27.756
And he as you know, he's,
he's a willing mule.

00:48:27.816 --> 00:48:32.376
And, and that's because what people
have ha have asked of him in the past

00:48:33.216 --> 00:48:38.286
have been safe questions have been
trustworthy questions, largely speaking.

00:48:38.316 --> 00:48:42.321
He's not been forced, he's not
been compelled to do something and.

00:48:43.381 --> 00:48:48.091
It's, I, I, I hear this in your
background from a military school of

00:48:48.601 --> 00:48:54.301
breaking somebody down and building
them up and the old breaking a horse.

00:48:54.691 --> 00:48:57.541
You know, I guess it still exists
somewhere, but we've been lucky enough

00:48:57.541 --> 00:49:05.101
to have models and yeah, mentors
who start horses who, who, who meet

00:49:05.161 --> 00:49:09.661
the horse where they are and, and
move forward with that goal in mind.

00:49:10.231 --> 00:49:13.831
And, and Sam came to us largely in that
path and, and we've been lucky enough

00:49:13.831 --> 00:49:17.101
that Samuel continues to help us grow.

00:49:17.521 --> 00:49:18.031
I love that he's

00:49:18.031 --> 00:49:18.871
Rupert Isaacson: called Samuel.

00:49:19.141 --> 00:49:19.321
Yeah.

00:49:19.401 --> 00:49:22.401
Right now let's go back to
the word stubborn, though.

00:49:22.401 --> 00:49:25.641
Stubborn can mean in its pejorative
sense, in its negative sense.

00:49:26.191 --> 00:49:28.561
Unwillingness to change basically, right?

00:49:28.621 --> 00:49:34.321
Unwillingness to take on new perspectives,
which of course is not a way of self

00:49:34.321 --> 00:49:36.691
preservation because you know, when the.

00:49:37.876 --> 00:49:41.446
When, when the Vikings or whoever are
coming over the hill, you can't say,

00:49:41.446 --> 00:49:42.676
well, they're not coming over the hill.

00:49:42.676 --> 00:49:46.276
Or, you know, I've lived here and this
is my grandfather and my grandfather

00:49:46.276 --> 00:49:47.356
before him was on this land.

00:49:47.356 --> 00:49:50.086
And yeah, I know dude, but
there's like 8,000 dudes coming

00:49:50.086 --> 00:49:51.316
over the hill waving xis.

00:49:51.316 --> 00:49:54.251
So you know, how about
we make a plan B or C.

00:49:54.251 --> 00:49:54.531
Mm-hmm.

00:49:54.736 --> 00:49:55.011
Or D.

00:49:55.431 --> 00:49:55.851
Mm-hmm.

00:49:55.906 --> 00:49:59.296
And the people that could make
the plans, you know, A to e were

00:49:59.296 --> 00:50:02.626
more likely to survive than the
one who said, I will not move.

00:50:03.196 --> 00:50:03.286
Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

00:50:03.526 --> 00:50:06.436
Rupert Isaacson: We love to think of the
kind of Gandalf, you know, you shall not

00:50:06.646 --> 00:50:06.976
Mark Uranga: pass,

00:50:07.666 --> 00:50:07.906
Rupert Isaacson: you know?

00:50:08.176 --> 00:50:11.386
But then again he did get killed
when he did that with the bowel rock.

00:50:11.726 --> 00:50:14.246
And there might be a time for
that type of self sacrifice.

00:50:14.246 --> 00:50:18.296
And of course, you know, we, we also
assume that Gandalf is coming with

00:50:18.296 --> 00:50:20.936
a certain amount of self-confidence
of magic behind him, and he

00:50:20.936 --> 00:50:23.366
happens to know the king of the
Eagles who happens to come along.

00:50:23.366 --> 00:50:25.316
So, you know, he's got,
he's got, he's got backup.

00:50:25.716 --> 00:50:27.696
And he wouldn't have stood there
with his stuff and done that if

00:50:27.696 --> 00:50:28.986
he didn't feel he had backup.

00:50:29.766 --> 00:50:30.306
So.

00:50:31.176 --> 00:50:34.806
You are not using the word
stubborn in that pejorative way.

00:50:35.226 --> 00:50:37.326
Yet nonetheless you are using that word.

00:50:37.506 --> 00:50:42.746
And I feel that when we're
working with particularly

00:50:42.746 --> 00:50:44.696
people on the spectrum mm-hmm.

00:50:44.936 --> 00:50:51.626
Who are in the less flexible stage of
their life, and I talk about this a

00:50:51.626 --> 00:50:53.816
lot with my son Rowan, who's 23 now.

00:50:53.876 --> 00:50:54.836
He's here in the house.

00:50:54.836 --> 00:50:56.936
You know, he'd be the first
to come up and say yes.

00:50:56.936 --> 00:51:01.586
When I was young, I was
incredibly inflexible.

00:51:02.516 --> 00:51:07.496
I made it extremely stressful on
everybody around me and myself.

00:51:07.796 --> 00:51:10.886
It's just that I didn't have any choice
in the matter because that's where my

00:51:10.886 --> 00:51:12.926
brain and my nervous system were at.

00:51:12.926 --> 00:51:15.176
But little by little I
learned to be flexible.

00:51:15.716 --> 00:51:15.836
Mm-hmm.

00:51:16.166 --> 00:51:20.246
Talk a little bit about the dance between
stubbornness and flexibility because.

00:51:22.061 --> 00:51:25.481
There are nuances there that I
think deserve to be explored.

00:51:26.171 --> 00:51:26.441
Mark Uranga: Yeah.

00:51:26.501 --> 00:51:30.521
Rupert Isaacson: And then I want to,
to talk a little bit about how you've

00:51:30.521 --> 00:51:32.741
gotten involved in equine assisted work.

00:51:33.221 --> 00:51:33.311
Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

00:51:33.591 --> 00:51:35.571
Rupert Isaacson: And then we, I
want to go into a little bit about,

00:51:35.631 --> 00:51:39.711
as a pediatrician, what you see as
the value of equine assisted work.

00:51:39.921 --> 00:51:43.621
So let's start with that dance
between stubbornness in the

00:51:43.621 --> 00:51:47.161
pejorative sense and flexibility.

00:51:47.921 --> 00:51:50.591
And then let's go to
mules and equine assisted.

00:51:51.851 --> 00:51:52.301
Mark Uranga: Perfect.

00:51:52.661 --> 00:52:02.201
Well, I think one of the patterns
that I see in pediatrics and these

00:52:02.351 --> 00:52:08.771
interactions, you know, throughout the
day is somewhat of a default coping in,

00:52:08.771 --> 00:52:11.471
in all of us at a first level of stress.

00:52:11.531 --> 00:52:13.661
Are we, do we cry?

00:52:13.661 --> 00:52:14.501
Do we dig in?

00:52:14.501 --> 00:52:16.781
Do we, do we freak out?

00:52:17.126 --> 00:52:18.056
Do we shut down?

00:52:18.746 --> 00:52:24.576
And the idea mule is a great
example of this and not always

00:52:24.576 --> 00:52:26.196
because they have the horse as well.

00:52:26.196 --> 00:52:30.516
And so sometimes it goes to flight,
but, but a tendency to just stop.

00:52:31.596 --> 00:52:35.046
Like, this is not okay, let's stop,

00:52:35.616 --> 00:52:36.981
Rupert Isaacson: stop and observe perhaps.

00:52:37.211 --> 00:52:37.501
Mark Uranga: Yeah.

00:52:38.346 --> 00:52:45.306
And that, that starts, that, that plants
the seed of stubbornness, I suppose.

00:52:45.306 --> 00:52:51.456
So if that in a person persists
and we stop and we do not change,

00:52:51.456 --> 00:52:56.646
then what is an acceptable coping
strategy becomes a maladaptive

00:52:57.096 --> 00:52:59.196
coping strategy, I would suppose.

00:52:59.676 --> 00:53:02.466
And the same, you know,
can be true of flexibility.

00:53:02.466 --> 00:53:08.076
If, if I change at a whim every, you
know, passing pad, then, then I've

00:53:08.076 --> 00:53:13.446
lost a sense of self and where I
might move forward with something.

00:53:13.761 --> 00:53:18.861
So the dance, and it's a dance as
I mentioned, I think I see with

00:53:18.891 --> 00:53:23.031
every kind of identity or coping
strategy or however a person would

00:53:23.091 --> 00:53:32.011
think, is that time where it serves
us well are in, in kind of bulking

00:53:32.011 --> 00:53:34.561
as it were, or stopping, am I safe?

00:53:34.561 --> 00:53:35.821
Is it safe to continue?

00:53:38.071 --> 00:53:39.451
Now I can move on.

00:53:40.261 --> 00:53:45.691
That is where I, I think, I
hesitate to think of stubborn

00:53:46.531 --> 00:53:48.961
as always maladaptive, right?

00:53:49.171 --> 00:53:54.151
And I, and I do, you know, it gets to
the nuance of definition, but I think

00:53:54.181 --> 00:54:00.061
that it's fair to call it stubborn
first because I do believe that it's,

00:54:00.391 --> 00:54:04.951
that it becomes persistence when it's
adaptive and that it, it becomes a

00:54:04.951 --> 00:54:06.601
bad thing when it, when it isn't.

00:54:06.631 --> 00:54:11.071
Like you said, you just hold fast
to something that is a lost cause.

00:54:11.776 --> 00:54:13.036
That, that's not so good.

00:54:13.606 --> 00:54:13.876
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:54:13.876 --> 00:54:19.516
And I think the reason why it was
good to have hear you explore that is

00:54:19.516 --> 00:54:23.316
because for a lot of people that are
working with you know, inflexible,

00:54:23.976 --> 00:54:30.996
neuropsychiatric, cognitive conditions
you know, I, I had no choice.

00:54:30.996 --> 00:54:33.456
I was a dad and I found
myself in that situation.

00:54:33.456 --> 00:54:36.006
So I just had to cope and
I had to figure out a way.

00:54:36.006 --> 00:54:38.196
So obviously what I did is
I went for mentorship and I

00:54:38.196 --> 00:54:39.786
went for mentorship with Dr.

00:54:39.786 --> 00:54:40.566
Temple Grandin.

00:54:41.046 --> 00:54:43.086
And she said, do these three things.

00:54:43.086 --> 00:54:44.346
I did those things and they worked.

00:54:44.346 --> 00:54:48.546
So, you know, so my persistence and my
stubbornness is like, I will not give

00:54:48.546 --> 00:54:55.926
up on this child in this situation, even
though it's beyond my current resources.

00:54:55.926 --> 00:54:59.586
What I'll do is I'll look for someone
who's got those resources and I

00:54:59.586 --> 00:55:01.626
will have them, you know, mentor me.

00:55:02.046 --> 00:55:05.736
A lot of the people that are working
with special needs, needs, they may not

00:55:05.736 --> 00:55:09.066
be coming out of this type of situation.

00:55:09.066 --> 00:55:12.936
So let's say you are an 18-year-old
and you are finishing college and you

00:55:12.936 --> 00:55:17.436
decide, or, or just you're going out
into the way say, I I like this world.

00:55:17.436 --> 00:55:21.096
I, I, I would like to help these people.

00:55:22.126 --> 00:55:26.056
I myself am adolescent, which
means I come with a certain

00:55:26.056 --> 00:55:27.496
inflexible mindset, you know?

00:55:27.496 --> 00:55:27.586
Right.

00:55:28.036 --> 00:55:31.396
And because my amygdala is still
not, you know, our, our brains are

00:55:31.396 --> 00:55:34.366
developing up until the age of about 25.

00:55:34.366 --> 00:55:36.076
I mean, they're always developing,
but you know what I mean?

00:55:36.076 --> 00:55:39.796
There's, there's these imbalances
between the amygdala and the, the

00:55:39.796 --> 00:55:43.786
hippocampus and the prefrontal cortex
that don't really even out for a

00:55:43.786 --> 00:55:47.056
while, which is why, you know, we,
we are rocky and self-absorbed as,

00:55:47.441 --> 00:55:48.196
Mark Uranga: as adolescents.

00:55:48.196 --> 00:55:48.801
Rupert Isaacson: Right, right.

00:55:48.806 --> 00:55:51.706
And we, we come by it, honestly, you know,
it's just how our brains are developing.

00:55:52.006 --> 00:55:53.626
And then we kind of cool out a little bit.

00:55:53.836 --> 00:55:58.396
But many people are, you know, as
young people are going into the field

00:55:58.396 --> 00:56:02.176
before, really their own brains have,
have gone through these changes.

00:56:02.176 --> 00:56:02.266
Mm-hmm.

00:56:02.986 --> 00:56:08.466
And then horse people, we horse
people and notoriously close-minded.

00:56:08.496 --> 00:56:08.916
Mm-hmm.

00:56:09.146 --> 00:56:13.976
It's, it's, it's a, it's a drum
that I thump a lot because I, I'm

00:56:13.976 --> 00:56:17.246
a great believer that all horse
people should go and learn other

00:56:17.246 --> 00:56:19.346
disciplines of hoarseness mm-hmm.

00:56:19.676 --> 00:56:20.876
All the time.

00:56:21.416 --> 00:56:25.436
Rather than saying, I don't do this, or
I don't use nose bands, or I don't use

00:56:25.436 --> 00:56:29.066
bits, or I won't do this, or those cowboys
are terrible, or that hunter jumpers

00:56:29.096 --> 00:56:30.476
are terrible or that this is terrible.

00:56:30.476 --> 00:56:32.856
That, that's you won't know
until you go and learn it.

00:56:33.576 --> 00:56:36.906
If, if you think it's bad,
go learn it and then decide.

00:56:37.416 --> 00:56:41.796
I'm often encouraging people in our
trainings to say, if you are asking

00:56:42.246 --> 00:56:42.336
Mark Uranga: mm-hmm.

00:56:42.636 --> 00:56:46.306
Rupert Isaacson: People who
have difficulty adapting.

00:56:47.026 --> 00:56:51.391
To do really difficult things
like communicate or mm-hmm.

00:56:51.531 --> 00:56:55.426
With a horse, go into that trailer,
which is a big dark hole, or yeah,

00:56:55.756 --> 00:56:59.996
accept a rider on the back, or get toilet
trained if you're a kid or whatever.

00:57:00.296 --> 00:57:04.196
Then what difficult, challenging,

00:57:04.706 --> 00:57:04.796
Mark Uranga: mm-hmm.

00:57:05.051 --> 00:57:05.306
Thing are

00:57:05.306 --> 00:57:06.206
Rupert Isaacson: you doing?

00:57:06.536 --> 00:57:08.126
What language are you learning?

00:57:08.456 --> 00:57:11.876
What difficult physical
skill are you learning?

00:57:11.876 --> 00:57:16.226
What computer programming, scratchy,
heady thing are you trying to learn so

00:57:16.226 --> 00:57:21.056
that, because if you're not constantly
finding yourself back at the beginner

00:57:21.056 --> 00:57:29.036
stage of things, what tools have you
really got to lead somebody else with

00:57:29.036 --> 00:57:31.766
two legs or four through that process?

00:57:32.246 --> 00:57:38.246
So I like that you are talking
about the need to persist.

00:57:38.786 --> 00:57:39.206
Mm-hmm.

00:57:39.446 --> 00:57:42.596
How do we cultivate.

00:57:45.236 --> 00:57:51.086
Enough open-mindedness so that
we can do what a meal does

00:57:51.146 --> 00:57:53.061
so that we can pause mm-hmm.

00:57:53.141 --> 00:57:53.621
And observe.

00:57:54.161 --> 00:57:54.581
Mm-hmm.

00:57:54.956 --> 00:57:57.956
So that, and then go
and discern ah, right.

00:57:57.986 --> 00:57:58.436
Okay.

00:57:58.436 --> 00:58:01.556
I guess the way down the
mountain is actually there.

00:58:02.156 --> 00:58:02.366
Yeah.

00:58:02.426 --> 00:58:07.346
Or, yes, it smells of cougar,
but two weeks ago, you know.

00:58:07.351 --> 00:58:07.621
Mm-hmm.

00:58:07.976 --> 00:58:09.596
Or yeah.

00:58:10.166 --> 00:58:11.696
How so?

00:58:12.986 --> 00:58:16.076
We don't wanna always override, but
sometimes we need to override, sometimes

00:58:16.106 --> 00:58:20.126
we need to say, smells of cougar half an
hour ago, but I gotta get down that slope.

00:58:20.606 --> 00:58:20.786
You know?

00:58:20.786 --> 00:58:20.846
Yeah.

00:58:21.086 --> 00:58:21.386
Alright.

00:58:21.386 --> 00:58:22.526
Now how do I, how do I do it?

00:58:22.706 --> 00:58:27.446
So that to some degree is
the equine assisted world.

00:58:27.446 --> 00:58:28.976
It's, it's, it's, it's dancing.

00:58:28.976 --> 00:58:30.396
That dance, um mm-hmm.

00:58:31.556 --> 00:58:37.706
How do we, how do we take this
pausing positive stubbornness

00:58:37.976 --> 00:58:38.066
Mark Uranga: mm-hmm.

00:58:38.396 --> 00:58:44.666
Rupert Isaacson: And turn it
into looking for opportunity for

00:58:46.676 --> 00:58:50.366
ways through dilemmas, basically.

00:58:52.406 --> 00:58:55.376
Mark Uranga: Well, I, I think
your work does an excellent job of

00:58:55.376 --> 00:59:03.596
providing that idea of, I have a goal
of improved communication in mind

00:59:03.596 --> 00:59:07.746
with somebody I'm working with with
autism in an equine assisted sense.

00:59:09.006 --> 00:59:14.946
And when I see an opening,
that's what I can go with.

00:59:15.006 --> 00:59:24.636
When I see a pause, I reflect on
why the pause, why, what caused a

00:59:24.636 --> 00:59:27.726
loss of that sense of safety was.

00:59:28.386 --> 00:59:30.606
Was it something to validate?

00:59:31.636 --> 00:59:37.276
The awareness of that is
critical for moving forward.

00:59:37.486 --> 00:59:45.286
That being attuned to that hesitation
is what allows the next step.

00:59:45.586 --> 00:59:46.096
So I like

00:59:46.096 --> 00:59:49.186
Rupert Isaacson: that being attuned,
being attuned to that hesitation

00:59:49.486 --> 00:59:51.286
allows for finding the next step.

00:59:52.006 --> 00:59:57.886
Mark Uranga: Yeah, and I love those
times of opportunity with, with

00:59:57.886 --> 01:00:03.916
patients, with the, the times that I've
gotten too close to their bubble and

01:00:04.096 --> 01:00:06.586
they went from smiling to shut down.

01:00:07.366 --> 01:00:11.716
That's in a, in a nutshell, when I'm
building that five minute relationship,

01:00:11.716 --> 01:00:20.356
which I get, that's my time to, to rec,
to, to realize that with them, give them

01:00:20.356 --> 01:00:23.656
that pause and, and then move forward.

01:00:23.656 --> 01:00:25.846
And in a bigger sense,
in a relationship that.

01:00:26.221 --> 01:00:30.241
You're developing therapeutically
or we're developing in an equine

01:00:30.241 --> 01:00:38.191
assisted sense, those pauses and
that asking of a yes question.

01:00:38.251 --> 01:00:41.101
This is a horsemanship, mule manship idea.

01:00:41.101 --> 01:00:41.431
Right?

01:00:41.431 --> 01:00:45.091
Let's ask a question that
our horse can achieve.

01:00:45.121 --> 01:00:49.021
Let's ask a question that our
patient, that our child, that

01:00:49.021 --> 01:00:51.901
our colleague can say yes to.

01:00:52.981 --> 01:00:59.551
That's what builds the trust and, and that
that connection and attunement, especially

01:00:59.551 --> 01:01:08.311
with our non-verbal learners is, is
really validating to their existence.

01:01:09.571 --> 01:01:09.961
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:01:09.961 --> 01:01:11.821
So you are, you're a pediatrician.

01:01:12.241 --> 01:01:12.331
Mm-hmm.

01:01:12.601 --> 01:01:20.066
To you, is the value of equine assisted
work as a whole, why is it a good thing?

01:01:22.381 --> 01:01:22.801
I think

01:01:22.801 --> 01:01:26.671
Mark Uranga: one of the biggest things it
does is, is it provides a different model.

01:01:26.851 --> 01:01:27.901
We're in

01:01:30.181 --> 01:01:36.601
a model in science that has a lot of
value for breaking down questions of

01:01:36.971 --> 01:01:38.771
is this medicine gonna kill bacteria?

01:01:39.041 --> 01:01:43.451
Is this vaccine going to save lives?

01:01:44.141 --> 01:01:49.091
But it, but it is not as
good at the holistic pattern.

01:01:49.511 --> 01:01:56.651
What combination of things for
a given child create progress?

01:01:57.161 --> 01:02:01.851
We, we know that certain models a,
BA for example, and, and something

01:02:01.851 --> 01:02:09.261
you're well aware of is one that
shows, shows promise for a number of

01:02:09.261 --> 01:02:12.111
people, and we have outliers to that.

01:02:13.011 --> 01:02:13.881
Are those.

01:02:14.646 --> 01:02:20.676
We know that from the scientific
model, but what we don't always pick

01:02:20.676 --> 01:02:22.806
up is the subtleties of the why.

01:02:22.806 --> 01:02:24.906
Why is that person an outlier?

01:02:25.296 --> 01:02:29.226
Was it you know, time of day person
that we're working with whatever it is.

01:02:29.301 --> 01:02:35.616
The, the equine assisted model allows
an entirely different paradigm.

01:02:36.096 --> 01:02:44.766
And I think that the work you do
to bring that back to all kinds of

01:02:44.796 --> 01:02:50.226
neurotransmitters and the science behind
that validates that the equine assisted

01:02:50.226 --> 01:02:55.986
world in, in a scientific model in
some regards, provides the observation.

01:02:56.286 --> 01:02:59.586
Science starts with an observation
and a subsequent hypothesis, and

01:02:59.586 --> 01:03:01.176
then a testing of the hypothesis.

01:03:01.176 --> 01:03:04.516
And then as we is that a, a testing?

01:03:04.996 --> 01:03:05.356
Is that.

01:03:05.451 --> 01:03:08.151
Repeated testing, do
we get the same result?

01:03:09.201 --> 01:03:13.791
And the observation that being
around horses helps me feel better,

01:03:14.481 --> 01:03:21.591
helps our autistic son feel better,
allows us to take the next step in

01:03:21.591 --> 01:03:28.911
medicine, in the, the research model
of saying, well, is there something

01:03:28.911 --> 01:03:30.441
that we can isolate from that?

01:03:30.441 --> 01:03:31.461
Is it the horse?

01:03:32.091 --> 01:03:33.051
Is it the movement?

01:03:33.051 --> 01:03:34.851
Is it the production of oxytocin?

01:03:34.851 --> 01:03:38.181
Is it, is it just the handler?

01:03:38.211 --> 01:03:40.941
And they could be riding a tricycle.

01:03:41.301 --> 01:03:46.461
The medical model, the scientific
model allows us to delve into that.

01:03:46.911 --> 01:03:52.931
But there's, there's the mystery
of the horse, the, the of the

01:03:52.931 --> 01:03:59.056
horse that is just not easy to
replicate in my experience, I think.

01:04:00.376 --> 01:04:04.456
We started with a horse and a, and then
a pony, and then, and then added mules.

01:04:04.486 --> 01:04:10.246
And there's just enough more resistance
in a mule to feel a little bit more

01:04:10.246 --> 01:04:20.176
like a toddler in that a horse, when
as I worked with them, their pause or

01:04:20.176 --> 01:04:22.756
hesitation would tend to be more active.

01:04:22.846 --> 01:04:27.616
And in, in my start, I, I felt confident.

01:04:27.726 --> 01:04:32.896
Let's say we were trying a new
movement and the, the LOP starts,

01:04:32.896 --> 01:04:34.666
well, you wanna elope, let's lop.

01:04:34.966 --> 01:04:35.926
I, I love loping.

01:04:35.956 --> 01:04:37.336
This is a great excuse for that.

01:04:37.636 --> 01:04:45.286
Whereas the mule will tend to have that
pause and forcing through doesn't, doesn't

01:04:45.286 --> 01:04:47.806
really get us to the right direction.

01:04:47.806 --> 01:04:50.386
It's in, in the horse,
in my horse experience.

01:04:50.386 --> 01:04:52.306
I kind of lost that moment.

01:04:52.376 --> 01:04:53.366
Why was that?

01:04:53.666 --> 01:04:56.726
Because the movement
allowed me to move past it.

01:04:57.446 --> 01:05:03.536
Whereas I think that that pause that I
see in a, in a mule more commonly is, is

01:05:03.536 --> 01:05:08.286
a little more analogous to a toddler and
and to people, you know, to our peers.

01:05:08.316 --> 01:05:08.406
Mm-hmm.

01:05:09.006 --> 01:05:13.506
Because there's, there's that not just,
well, I'm gonna flee the scene that's

01:05:13.506 --> 01:05:15.186
a little more inherent to the horse.

01:05:15.186 --> 01:05:22.326
The, the response of a mule still has
that opening for, okay, now we're both

01:05:22.626 --> 01:05:25.146
here not doing what I would like to do.

01:05:25.146 --> 01:05:27.336
How do we still get there?

01:05:29.976 --> 01:05:30.546
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.

01:05:30.546 --> 01:05:34.566
So it kind of forces more
inventive communication in a way.

01:05:35.316 --> 01:05:38.376
And I think we also all know
that mules are hyper intelligent.

01:05:38.376 --> 01:05:41.286
They're, they're more intelligent
than the sum of their parts.

01:05:41.286 --> 01:05:41.466
Right?

01:05:41.466 --> 01:05:43.806
So they tend to be more intelligent
than, horses are more intelligent

01:05:43.806 --> 01:05:47.316
than, than ass certainly than my ass.

01:05:48.636 --> 01:05:51.966
So yourself, you must
be familiar with that.

01:05:52.046 --> 01:05:53.606
With the poet Ogden Nash.

01:05:54.006 --> 01:06:00.826
He was a poet American jazz age poet,
writing in sort of sophisticated New York.

01:06:00.856 --> 01:06:06.496
And he wrote funny, often satirical
poems about everything from sort of

01:06:06.526 --> 01:06:10.786
marriage to making a martini to, and he
had lots and lots of ones about animals

01:06:11.056 --> 01:06:15.076
and, you know, the giraffe or the, the
lion or the elephant he won about mules.

01:06:15.076 --> 01:06:16.066
And I love it.

01:06:16.066 --> 01:06:17.026
It's two lines.

01:06:17.056 --> 01:06:19.456
It's in the world of mules.

01:06:20.566 --> 01:06:22.096
There are no rules.

01:06:26.506 --> 01:06:26.896
Mark Uranga: Perfect.

01:06:27.346 --> 01:06:27.856
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:06:28.186 --> 01:06:28.636
Yeah.

01:06:28.696 --> 01:06:30.791
And to me that Oh, that's funny.

01:06:30.821 --> 01:06:31.111
Yeah.

01:06:31.111 --> 01:06:31.876
That really is good.

01:06:31.876 --> 01:06:35.956
And in, in the in, I've done
two really big mountain trips

01:06:35.956 --> 01:06:37.696
in my life using with mules.

01:06:37.746 --> 01:06:42.866
One was in Spain 30 plus years
ago, and another one was in Latu in

01:06:42.866 --> 01:06:44.576
the highlands of Southern Africa.

01:06:44.576 --> 01:06:44.666
And.

01:06:46.151 --> 01:06:49.721
What you could really see was the
discernment that the mules had

01:06:50.351 --> 01:06:53.051
about how to handle situations.

01:06:53.161 --> 01:06:56.941
And that if you were to try
to force anything mm-hmm.

01:06:57.181 --> 01:06:59.851
The mule might actually react
badly and push you off the cliff.

01:07:00.751 --> 01:07:07.201
But if you when with the mule and
did allow the pause and the slowness

01:07:07.201 --> 01:07:12.691
and the, the mule would get you
and your stuff down or up safely.

01:07:12.691 --> 01:07:13.201
Mm-hmm.

01:07:13.441 --> 01:07:13.501
Yeah.

01:07:13.561 --> 01:07:17.491
But you had to meet
them more than halfway.

01:07:18.001 --> 01:07:21.181
And I felt that, but it was a fair
exchange by, you know, because

01:07:21.181 --> 01:07:22.231
I mean, they're gonna get you.

01:07:22.231 --> 01:07:22.441
Yeah.

01:07:23.071 --> 01:07:28.501
You are involved in a in an
equine assisted organization.

01:07:28.651 --> 01:07:29.761
Tell us about that.

01:07:29.761 --> 01:07:30.601
What, where is it?

01:07:30.601 --> 01:07:31.321
What is it?

01:07:31.391 --> 01:07:34.091
I, I know 'cause I went, you know, to do
a training there, but I'd still like you

01:07:34.091 --> 01:07:35.861
to, to introduce it and talk about it.

01:07:35.906 --> 01:07:36.196
Yeah.

01:07:36.281 --> 01:07:40.631
And what do you feel the value of,
of their particular approach is

01:07:40.631 --> 01:07:42.521
that, that, that jives with you?

01:07:43.151 --> 01:07:43.331
Mm-hmm.

01:07:43.811 --> 01:07:47.531
As a pediatrician, not just
as a dad who wants to do nice

01:07:47.531 --> 01:07:48.911
things for, for kids with horses.

01:07:49.191 --> 01:07:52.491
So yeah, tell us what is, what is
this, what is the equine assisted

01:07:52.491 --> 01:07:54.981
organization that you're involved with?

01:07:54.981 --> 01:07:55.761
Just start there.

01:07:56.331 --> 01:07:56.751
Mark Uranga: Sure.

01:07:56.906 --> 01:08:00.951
The, the organization is called
the Warm Springs Care Farm.

01:08:01.981 --> 01:08:06.061
And it's probably the one and the only, if
you were to Google Warm Springs Care Farm,

01:08:06.451 --> 01:08:10.381
it pulls its name from the geothermal
hot water that runs down the street,

01:08:10.411 --> 01:08:14.581
the warm springs that heat all these
historic homes around along warm springs.

01:08:14.611 --> 01:08:17.431
Historically, all those homes
came with enough land for

01:08:17.431 --> 01:08:18.901
horses and a carriage house.

01:08:19.591 --> 01:08:22.081
And the Warm Springs Care
Farm is one of the few that's

01:08:22.081 --> 01:08:23.911
maintained enough acreage to have.

01:08:25.441 --> 01:08:29.381
An arena and they've since added
some goats and, and chickens

01:08:29.381 --> 01:08:30.371
and these sorts of things.

01:08:31.331 --> 01:08:38.531
And the value, I'm lucky enough to
live on the same road and have the same

01:08:38.531 --> 01:08:44.351
experience in my backyard, is to come
over a bench and down over a canal into

01:08:44.381 --> 01:08:47.561
what feels like an oasis within the city.

01:08:47.801 --> 01:08:50.891
And Warm Springs Care
Farm really embraces that.

01:08:50.891 --> 01:08:54.551
It's not a forest based
learning environment.

01:08:54.611 --> 01:08:58.401
It's it's an, an oasis.

01:08:58.461 --> 01:09:04.071
And that comes with small animals as well.

01:09:04.591 --> 01:09:10.581
Ducks, chickens, as I mentioned,
goats the, just the break that

01:09:10.761 --> 01:09:12.681
adults, you know, we kind of, again.

01:09:13.386 --> 01:09:15.846
Circle back a little bit to
the idea that we're, we're all

01:09:15.846 --> 01:09:17.226
nonverbal in communication.

01:09:17.226 --> 01:09:20.616
These emotions, these senses that
we have, we don't lose them, we

01:09:20.616 --> 01:09:22.536
just choose to ignore them at times.

01:09:23.196 --> 01:09:28.226
And basically crossing this threshold
at the Worm Springs Care farm, you know,

01:09:28.226 --> 01:09:36.566
you're in a place that is a different
pace and the, the role that they play is

01:09:36.566 --> 01:09:47.186
creating this space for growth or therapy
that is driven by the participants.

01:09:47.216 --> 01:09:51.656
They are not so solely focused
on equine work that they don't

01:09:51.656 --> 01:09:52.916
welcome the drumming circle.

01:09:52.916 --> 01:09:56.966
They have a, a farm club for kids.

01:09:56.966 --> 01:09:59.796
They they have some dance
groups and other things.

01:09:59.796 --> 01:10:03.636
They welcomed your clinic, which
was, I think, a breakthrough

01:10:03.636 --> 01:10:09.126
for a lot of us in the idea of
how to engage with work that is.

01:10:10.881 --> 01:10:13.891
Demanding and compelling yet tiring.

01:10:14.281 --> 01:10:22.171
And, and so that organization basically
provides the openness with the physical

01:10:22.351 --> 01:10:26.911
location to make those experiences
rich for anybody that visits there.

01:10:29.011 --> 01:10:33.221
Rupert Isaacson: You what, what, what
role do you play there and what do you

01:10:33.221 --> 01:10:36.851
feel your insight as a pediatrician
brings to you doing that work?

01:10:39.071 --> 01:10:41.541
Mark Uranga: Well, I
think it's is such a great

01:10:43.581 --> 01:10:49.071
refreshing thing to be able to say,
I know of this place that is magical

01:10:49.371 --> 01:10:55.531
that is not another appointment.

01:10:55.711 --> 01:11:01.111
It's not another, you know, therapy
that a child is compelled to go to it.

01:11:01.211 --> 01:11:05.681
Is something that's engaging and
you know, not all kids are engaged

01:11:05.681 --> 01:11:11.411
in that model of growth, but the
ones who are find it so reassuring.

01:11:11.411 --> 01:11:12.431
And I think that

01:11:14.951 --> 01:11:19.381
with the involvement that that fortunately
I've been able to have some, not as much

01:11:19.381 --> 01:11:24.391
as I, as I would like based on demands
of being a working dad and a pediatrician

01:11:24.391 --> 01:11:31.561
and a, a mule owner and other things, but
that there's some, some clear validation

01:11:31.561 --> 01:11:38.311
to that approach that within medicine
we will have patients that have not done

01:11:38.311 --> 01:11:41.731
well in therapy, even though for, for
some people that's the right answer.

01:11:42.191 --> 01:11:46.311
Who haven't done well in occupational
therapy building where it's a

01:11:46.311 --> 01:11:47.751
more of an artificial environment.

01:11:47.751 --> 01:11:50.811
Some kids thrive with what's
provided in that setting.

01:11:51.351 --> 01:11:54.921
And the, the role I think
that, that I'm able to play is.

01:11:56.031 --> 01:12:00.561
To advocate for the value that they
provide and recognize that as a, a

01:12:00.561 --> 01:12:07.011
legitimate and important way forward
for, for families and, and kids, and

01:12:07.011 --> 01:12:12.531
that it's not some, you know, hippie
thing that is just, just playing with

01:12:12.531 --> 01:12:17.601
animals and, and not growing, but
instead it, it provides that kind of,

01:12:17.601 --> 01:12:20.361
that crucible in which growth can occur.

01:12:21.891 --> 01:12:23.751
Rupert Isaacson: It's so
interesting that, you know, we

01:12:23.751 --> 01:12:25.671
use the word hippie in Peor here.

01:12:25.671 --> 01:12:27.381
I say I'm total hippie, obviously.

01:12:27.801 --> 01:12:27.891
Yeah.

01:12:27.971 --> 01:12:32.381
As a pejorative, because of course the
counterculture otherwise known as the

01:12:32.381 --> 01:12:35.091
hippie culture arose out of science.

01:12:35.121 --> 01:12:39.081
You know, that the, the, the Allen
Ginsburg and these people who were, they

01:12:39.081 --> 01:12:40.551
were all PhDs, they were all doctors.

01:12:40.551 --> 01:12:42.681
Most of them were at Ivy League schools.

01:12:43.161 --> 01:12:45.981
The, a lot of the people that
engendered the counter culture

01:12:45.981 --> 01:12:48.141
movement were actually scientists.

01:12:48.891 --> 01:12:52.941
The reason they were, experimenting
with altered states of consciousness

01:12:53.001 --> 01:12:56.481
was for the same reason that the
CIA were and still are, you know?

01:12:56.531 --> 01:13:01.151
But, you know, with an idea to heal
rather than to harm or control.

01:13:01.541 --> 01:13:07.081
And yet we still have this almost
sort of slightly guilty thing of, even

01:13:07.081 --> 01:13:11.431
though it was clear, the hippies got
it right in terms of quality of life.

01:13:11.431 --> 01:13:13.981
Like what would you have rather
have been in the early 1960s?

01:13:13.981 --> 01:13:20.851
Would you rather have been the,
the, the bloke who was just

01:13:20.851 --> 01:13:22.621
chain to that corporate ladder?

01:13:22.861 --> 01:13:27.511
Or would you rather have been a Woodstock,
you know, I mean, and, and then gone

01:13:27.511 --> 01:13:28.891
away and founded Ben and Jerry's?

01:13:28.891 --> 01:13:31.741
You know, I mean, which would you
rather, I'm not saying there's anything

01:13:31.741 --> 01:13:34.501
wrong with being on the corporate
ladder, and there's also not anything

01:13:34.501 --> 01:13:37.831
wrong with being a hippie that does
not go and found Ben and Jerry's.

01:13:38.221 --> 01:13:41.341
But many of the hippie generation,
of course, actually did become

01:13:41.341 --> 01:13:45.176
really good entrepreneurs as
well as, scientists and so on.

01:13:45.176 --> 01:13:53.136
And, and really were the kind of
blaze the trail for the freedom that

01:13:53.136 --> 01:13:58.596
we think of now as western culture
that we can clearly see in this world

01:13:58.686 --> 01:14:02.526
where it's under threat and Sure.

01:14:03.126 --> 01:14:03.876
Challenge.

01:14:03.906 --> 01:14:08.106
You know, would we rather live in a,
in a totalitarian society where we

01:14:08.106 --> 01:14:11.106
can't express these things or what
would we, well, I think we all know

01:14:11.106 --> 01:14:13.956
what we'd rather we'd all, you know,
rather have a bit more rock and roll.

01:14:14.346 --> 01:14:19.446
So, and this of course starts with our
children, yet we do still feel this sort

01:14:19.446 --> 01:14:23.706
of slight guilty thing about going one.

01:14:23.766 --> 01:14:25.686
But I am supposed to be
a very serious person.

01:14:25.686 --> 01:14:29.766
And even though none of us ever wanted
to be, because we we're just toddlers at

01:14:29.766 --> 01:14:36.576
the end of the day, and you talk about
saying yes, it's good as a doctor to be

01:14:36.696 --> 01:14:40.746
able to give validation, you know, we,
we now know the neuroscience behind.

01:14:41.091 --> 01:14:42.831
Hippy dom, why it works.

01:14:42.831 --> 01:14:42.841
Mm-hmm.

01:14:42.926 --> 01:14:45.171
You know, whether it's an altered
sense of consciousness and why they

01:14:45.171 --> 01:14:49.821
work or whether it's why working with
horses through oxytocin and BDNF brain

01:14:49.821 --> 01:14:53.511
derived neurotrophic factor, which is
actually neuroplasticity, why it works.

01:14:53.511 --> 01:14:55.251
These things have now been looked at.

01:14:55.461 --> 01:14:59.311
And then you can get to the more
esoteric stuff, you know, like the

01:14:59.311 --> 01:15:03.871
HeartMath Institute, you know, looking
at the emission of photons outta

01:15:03.871 --> 01:15:06.991
the heart and electromagnetic plus
people say, oh, that's all bollocks.

01:15:07.141 --> 01:15:09.211
Well, I live in Germany,
it's not bollocks.

01:15:09.241 --> 01:15:12.241
The University of Castle up
the road, which is very German.

01:15:12.541 --> 01:15:12.631
Mm-hmm.

01:15:12.821 --> 01:15:17.261
Did a whole study about 20, 25 years
ago into the emission of photons

01:15:17.501 --> 01:15:21.581
from human hearts and how in states
of empathy, we actually, they go way

01:15:21.581 --> 01:15:25.781
farther out and therefore, you know,
we do actually affect the people

01:15:25.781 --> 01:15:28.151
around us in this really positive
way and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:15:28.581 --> 01:15:29.481
So it's well studied.

01:15:29.481 --> 01:15:29.631
Right?

01:15:29.631 --> 01:15:30.321
It's well studied.

01:15:30.321 --> 01:15:30.411
Mm-hmm.

01:15:31.581 --> 01:15:32.031
Absolutely.

01:15:32.031 --> 01:15:33.616
But, but yet it.

01:15:35.301 --> 01:15:40.821
The authoritarian thing because
we all inherited this religious

01:15:40.881 --> 01:15:42.711
and militaristic thing.

01:15:42.711 --> 01:15:42.801
Mm-hmm.

01:15:43.131 --> 01:15:45.741
There's some little part of us
that did drink the Kool-Aid.

01:15:46.191 --> 01:15:46.281
Mm-hmm.

01:15:46.521 --> 01:15:51.051
And even though it's cultish, it is
frankly cultish feels a set slight

01:15:51.051 --> 01:15:56.661
sense of kind of guilt for the fact
that we know that that's the better way.

01:15:56.871 --> 01:16:01.341
So I I, I love that as a doctor, you
can, you can then say, well, look.

01:16:01.341 --> 01:16:01.761
Yes.

01:16:01.871 --> 01:16:07.121
While certain types of very structured
therapies will provide some answers,

01:16:07.121 --> 01:16:12.461
there are not just a few outliers,
there are hundreds of thousands of them.

01:16:12.461 --> 01:16:12.521
Yeah.

01:16:13.206 --> 01:16:13.736
And yeah.

01:16:13.796 --> 01:16:17.186
You know, my, my son did not
do well with a, BA, you know.

01:16:17.246 --> 01:16:17.456
No.

01:16:17.456 --> 01:16:17.726
Right.

01:16:17.816 --> 01:16:18.596
Absolutely not.

01:16:18.596 --> 01:16:21.626
And, and a BA people they do not
invite Temple Grand into their

01:16:21.626 --> 01:16:25.136
conferences because they know
she's going to say, sorry lads,

01:16:25.136 --> 01:16:26.366
but it's too limited, you know?

01:16:26.756 --> 01:16:29.056
Because at the end of the
day's, coercive, you know, yeah.

01:16:29.356 --> 01:16:29.806
But.

01:16:30.406 --> 01:16:33.916
You have also talked about I don't
wanna talk about what we're against

01:16:34.066 --> 01:16:39.296
because also I know very good a, BA
therapists and in the state of California,

01:16:39.296 --> 01:16:42.956
you can actually get Horse Boyer
movement method approved as a BA yeah.

01:16:43.016 --> 01:16:46.196
You know, because there are certain BCBAs
down there who believe in what we do.

01:16:46.196 --> 01:16:50.186
So I, I don't want to be in
this sort of them and us thing.

01:16:50.796 --> 01:16:54.126
But one thing I love that you have said
is that I've written them down, you have

01:16:54.126 --> 01:16:58.146
said, as well as stubborn and attunement.

01:16:58.746 --> 01:16:58.956
Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

01:16:59.346 --> 01:17:03.846
Rupert Isaacson: You said
a place that is magical.

01:17:03.846 --> 01:17:04.776
Mm-hmm.

01:17:04.777 --> 01:17:09.036
You also said the mystery of the horse.

01:17:09.426 --> 01:17:09.546
Mm-hmm.

01:17:09.966 --> 01:17:14.416
You also said the of it all.

01:17:15.246 --> 01:17:18.606
And yet you're a doctor
where your job is to be the,

01:17:20.751 --> 01:17:24.606
not the, you know, not,
not, I've got, I'm sorry.

01:17:25.476 --> 01:17:31.746
So magic mystery, being
comfortable saying, I don't know.

01:17:32.406 --> 01:17:32.496
Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

01:17:33.396 --> 01:17:36.576
Rupert Isaacson: When we go into
a pediatrician's office, that's

01:17:36.576 --> 01:17:40.866
not the language that makes people
feel at ease, and yet of course we

01:17:40.866 --> 01:17:42.936
know that this is 50% of reality.

01:17:43.596 --> 01:17:47.766
Talk to us about that as a doctor, the
importance of magic and mystery and qua.

01:17:50.556 --> 01:17:51.546
Why is it important?

01:17:52.986 --> 01:17:57.936
Mark Uranga: I think that
it's built into pediatrics.

01:17:57.936 --> 01:18:07.716
It's, there's, there's no mystery greater
than that gap sometimes between the.

01:18:08.151 --> 01:18:13.191
The adult and the, the parent this,
the parent, I'm sorry, and the child

01:18:13.241 --> 01:18:16.856
this like, I want this and I don't
want this and this, this, this is a,

01:18:16.991 --> 01:18:19.091
a mystery to me what's going on here.

01:18:19.091 --> 01:18:25.331
And, and I, I see my role as
kind of entering that mystery.

01:18:25.331 --> 01:18:31.781
And I've, I've learned this from, from
the equine world of now, first of all,

01:18:32.291 --> 01:18:35.231
because of my background as we talked
about and my experience, I, I have

01:18:35.231 --> 01:18:39.011
felt comfortable with children and,
and I'm kind of enter their world.

01:18:39.161 --> 01:18:42.011
Maybe I'm still a little, I just
like you, a toddler, adolescent,

01:18:42.011 --> 01:18:46.211
and all these things all at once,
and I'm willing to enter that.

01:18:46.391 --> 01:18:49.901
And then interpret for the family.

01:18:50.441 --> 01:18:55.811
The, what I've learned as a, as an
adult learner in mules and horses

01:18:56.711 --> 01:19:03.311
is mentors that talk me through
the process that, that, what seems.

01:19:04.216 --> 01:19:07.336
You know, I've been called Baby
Whisper or whatever else like that.

01:19:07.336 --> 01:19:09.646
And, and, and that's,
that's a nice compliment.

01:19:09.646 --> 01:19:16.096
It's mysterious and it seems unachievable
to families, but when I say, well,

01:19:16.906 --> 01:19:20.566
your baby wanted it to be rolled over
on its stomach with its chin propped

01:19:20.566 --> 01:19:24.706
up here and, and watch, they want
this much bouncing, not that much.

01:19:24.706 --> 01:19:30.886
Bouncing the mystery
unravels in a positive way.

01:19:31.756 --> 01:19:38.456
What I think was somewhat appealing
in an early part of my career was

01:19:38.456 --> 01:19:41.876
to think, oh, I'm just good with
kids, and like, too bad these people

01:19:41.906 --> 01:19:43.286
can't figure it out or whatever.

01:19:43.286 --> 01:19:47.636
But, but they are the people to
figure it out and it's, and it's

01:19:47.636 --> 01:19:49.976
something that can be translated.

01:19:49.976 --> 01:19:54.896
It's, it's not a mystery
as, as much as it might be.

01:19:54.896 --> 01:19:58.806
And I think this is as a
learner, something where.

01:19:59.211 --> 01:20:05.901
The way that you can transition to
an in hand PO is mysterious to me,

01:20:06.741 --> 01:20:08.811
but, but it's, it's broken down.

01:20:08.811 --> 01:20:12.381
And, and you, you do that
and it's, it's no mystery.

01:20:12.831 --> 01:20:15.501
That's a, a little different than
I think the mystery I was referring

01:20:15.501 --> 01:20:22.371
to earlier of that connection, the,
that primordial movement on the top

01:20:22.371 --> 01:20:28.101
of a horse that takes us back to
Mongolia or, or places beyond that.

01:20:28.101 --> 01:20:29.751
That we are something

01:20:29.826 --> 01:20:30.706
Rupert Isaacson: ancestral, perhaps.

01:20:30.736 --> 01:20:31.026
Yeah,

01:20:31.031 --> 01:20:32.691
Mark Uranga: ancestral, absolutely.

01:20:32.691 --> 01:20:37.831
That we are still a monkey
on a horse helping it move.

01:20:38.401 --> 01:20:41.731
And, and that communication
doesn't matter.

01:20:41.791 --> 01:20:43.321
You know, our horse
doesn't have an iPhone.

01:20:43.321 --> 01:20:48.571
It turns out they still have
the, the mammalian drivelines

01:20:48.571 --> 01:20:50.521
and the main mammalian responses.

01:20:50.521 --> 01:20:55.261
And when we can practice those
with this unadultered version.

01:20:55.816 --> 01:20:57.616
Of the mammalian nervous system.

01:20:57.916 --> 01:21:01.876
We bring that back to these, to infants.

01:21:02.086 --> 01:21:07.426
And, and I love the early stage where,
you know, lots of questions, lots

01:21:07.426 --> 01:21:14.176
of TikTok videos and, and gizmos and
gadgets and, and AI assisted bassinets.

01:21:14.206 --> 01:21:23.106
And yet it's just a baby that is
gonna respond to the same cues

01:21:23.886 --> 01:21:26.616
that a baby 200,000 years ago did.

01:21:26.616 --> 01:21:27.546
Is it hungry?

01:21:27.546 --> 01:21:31.986
Is it, is it comforted
in a swaddled sense?

01:21:31.986 --> 01:21:34.326
Is it feeling unsafe?

01:21:34.656 --> 01:21:35.856
Is it wanting help?

01:21:35.856 --> 01:21:37.986
Is that it's crying because it wants help.

01:21:38.436 --> 01:21:47.046
So, so the, I think that there's a
mystery that, that we in a good sense

01:21:47.046 --> 01:21:50.226
can break down with some of these
things with horses, a mystery with.

01:21:51.051 --> 01:21:51.711
Babies.

01:21:51.821 --> 01:21:53.321
And yet a sense of mystery.

01:21:53.916 --> 01:22:00.081
The, the awe is something that I,
I don't think I lose with children.

01:22:00.561 --> 01:22:04.491
Their their honesty, their
quirkiness, their sense of humor.

01:22:04.851 --> 01:22:08.331
And that is, I think something
that, as we mentioned, was

01:22:08.361 --> 01:22:09.921
celebrated in my upbringing.

01:22:09.921 --> 01:22:17.311
But is it one of those that's a universal,
I think experience that from children in

01:22:17.311 --> 01:22:21.361
the Bible to how children are perceived
in different cultures around the world?

01:22:21.361 --> 01:22:26.191
I think there, there's an elevation
of that sense of innocence

01:22:26.251 --> 01:22:30.361
and, and maybe the, kind of the
mystery that lies within that.

01:22:31.951 --> 01:22:32.371
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

01:22:32.371 --> 01:22:35.641
And, and perhaps you talk about
the mammalian sense, although

01:22:35.641 --> 01:22:41.311
there are occasions in mammalian
things where infanticide happens.

01:22:41.361 --> 01:22:41.371
Yeah.

01:22:41.571 --> 01:22:41.811
Yeah.

01:22:41.841 --> 01:22:43.851
You know, when the lion
takes over the pride that.

01:22:44.391 --> 01:22:49.091
Croley goes and kills, or the, or when the
stallion takes over the herd, uh mm-hmm.

01:22:50.231 --> 01:22:53.831
Has sex with the mares to the,
make them all abort mm-hmm.

01:22:53.861 --> 01:22:55.061
The fetus to the next one.

01:22:55.061 --> 01:23:00.191
And it, it, these are brutal, horrible
ways of, of serving the DNA requirements.

01:23:00.791 --> 01:23:04.271
But you're also talking about
the mammalian nervous system.

01:23:05.111 --> 01:23:10.051
I'd like to talk about that a
bit because the, I often call it

01:23:10.051 --> 01:23:11.791
the mammalian caregiving system.

01:23:11.791 --> 01:23:12.871
Mm-hmm.

01:23:13.081 --> 01:23:19.021
The, you know, it's actually not
difficult to figure out what mammals want.

01:23:19.026 --> 01:23:19.406
Mm-hmm.

01:23:19.486 --> 01:23:23.281
Because whether they're
loner mammals, like tigers

01:23:23.731 --> 01:23:23.881
Mark Uranga: mm-hmm.

01:23:24.331 --> 01:23:28.801
Rupert Isaacson: Or whether they're
group ones like lions mm-hmm.

01:23:29.041 --> 01:23:34.681
They do when they're young,
require all the same nurture, and

01:23:34.681 --> 01:23:35.911
if they don't get it, they die.

01:23:36.331 --> 01:23:39.781
But before I go there, and I want
you to talk a bit about what is

01:23:39.781 --> 01:23:43.021
the mammalian nervous system, I,
it's useful to have it mm-hmm.

01:23:43.531 --> 01:23:44.746
Actually sort of broken down.

01:23:45.511 --> 01:23:51.151
Is it, this is the place, the places
that is magical, is the important

01:23:51.151 --> 01:23:55.801
of magical, A magical feeling
place is that it's whimsical.

01:23:55.891 --> 01:24:02.671
And what I mean by whimsical is
beautiful in a natural way that's on

01:24:02.701 --> 01:24:08.461
a human scale, or at least on a scale
that we feel we can participate in.

01:24:09.271 --> 01:24:11.311
And does that make us feel safe?

01:24:11.341 --> 01:24:18.031
Because it feels like biodiversity,
which feels like abundant food, which

01:24:18.031 --> 01:24:22.861
feels like an environment that we
can thrive in as opposed to harsh

01:24:22.861 --> 01:24:26.911
concrete or harsh cliffs, which.

01:24:27.736 --> 01:24:31.876
While they might be impressive,
we can't thrive in and, and

01:24:31.876 --> 01:24:33.166
actually are threatening to us.

01:24:33.166 --> 01:24:38.806
So is is magical in the positive sense,
whimsical meaning we can thrive here.

01:24:38.806 --> 01:24:39.736
Mm-hmm.

01:24:40.021 --> 01:24:46.996
And then is the mystery of the horse and
the s quo, is that actually listening?

01:24:47.386 --> 01:24:51.706
Is that actually the, what appears
to be mysterious is, is it just

01:24:51.706 --> 01:24:53.146
that one has to learn to listen?

01:24:53.146 --> 01:24:56.296
You talk about the mule that
takes the pause, the mule listens.

01:24:56.296 --> 01:24:58.396
The mule says, all right, well
I dunno what's going on here.

01:24:58.396 --> 01:25:01.846
So let me listen with all my senses.

01:25:02.686 --> 01:25:05.266
To try to make the correct decision here.

01:25:05.836 --> 01:25:08.566
And then you say, okay, well, Rupert,
when you transition a horse into the

01:25:08.566 --> 01:25:10.696
papp, it looks, it looks magical.

01:25:10.696 --> 01:25:13.696
And I say, well, no, it's actually
300 little stages, each of

01:25:13.696 --> 01:25:15.466
which is very logical by itself.

01:25:15.466 --> 01:25:17.896
But when you put them all
together, it has a magical look

01:25:17.896 --> 01:25:19.276
to it or a mysterious look to it.

01:25:19.486 --> 01:25:23.566
But if you break 'em down, it's the same
process as any other process, but it

01:25:23.566 --> 01:25:25.396
does require a certain kind of listening.

01:25:26.056 --> 01:25:26.326
Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

01:25:26.686 --> 01:25:29.626
Rupert Isaacson: To discern
those 300 little things or to

01:25:29.626 --> 01:25:33.676
know how to approach those 300
little things with a given horse.

01:25:34.186 --> 01:25:41.206
And then you talked about, or do we
respond well to, or, and this is, there's

01:25:41.206 --> 01:25:42.646
a lot of studies now about, or Right.

01:25:42.746 --> 01:25:47.306
Because it gives us a sense of
perspective IE that our, yeah.

01:25:47.306 --> 01:25:48.656
I stand in front of the mountain.

01:25:48.656 --> 01:25:51.356
I stand in the face of a
beautiful piece of art.

01:25:51.356 --> 01:25:55.496
I stand in front of the, the horse and.

01:25:56.606 --> 01:26:00.086
Feel the sense of awe, which means I get
a sense of perspective of on myself, and

01:26:00.086 --> 01:26:01.916
suddenly I'm transported from my ego.

01:26:02.216 --> 01:26:07.016
I'm not now hearing the little
voice in my head that's telling

01:26:07.016 --> 01:26:08.066
me I'm shit all the time.

01:26:08.246 --> 01:26:09.116
It's gone beyond that.

01:26:09.116 --> 01:26:10.106
It's gone beyond me.

01:26:10.256 --> 01:26:11.001
And now mm-hmm.

01:26:11.321 --> 01:26:13.556
I have the sense of perspective,
which is healing because I actually

01:26:13.556 --> 01:26:15.956
get a break from my own bs, you know?

01:26:15.956 --> 01:26:16.046
Right.

01:26:16.346 --> 01:26:16.796
Right.

01:26:17.096 --> 01:26:21.686
Is that actually what's going on
with all these things and is that

01:26:21.686 --> 01:26:23.096
why they're actually really not?

01:26:23.126 --> 01:26:25.706
And then you talk about the
mammalian nervous system.

01:26:25.856 --> 01:26:30.026
How does the mammalian nervous system
engage with these things as a doctor,

01:26:30.446 --> 01:26:32.396
you know, to create wellbeing?

01:26:34.466 --> 01:26:34.976
Mark Uranga: Right.

01:26:35.036 --> 01:26:35.546
Yeah.

01:26:35.606 --> 01:26:43.496
The, the starting point, I think for
that, it certainly bring, brings us back

01:26:43.496 --> 01:26:50.726
to the mammalian nervous system and its
job, first and foremost to keep us alive.

01:26:50.816 --> 01:26:51.266
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:26:51.686 --> 01:26:54.386
Mark Uranga: And then from there.

01:26:55.016 --> 01:27:04.496
To help us be comfortable and
proliferate and in the, in that order.

01:27:04.556 --> 01:27:14.176
So when we are considering any of these
things that the, the the horse, the mule,

01:27:14.176 --> 01:27:20.006
the toddler find uncomfortable, they,
that's the starting point is the safety.

01:27:20.526 --> 01:27:24.546
If we're not safe, we don't get to
eat a, a cheeseburger and make a baby.

01:27:24.546 --> 01:27:26.136
We, we have not passed.

01:27:26.136 --> 01:27:26.496
Go.

01:27:26.496 --> 01:27:26.586
Right.

01:27:26.736 --> 01:27:34.416
So the, the safe starting point
the combination of, and we, and we

01:27:34.416 --> 01:27:38.036
live in the arid west and we have
both crickets and rattlesnakes.

01:27:38.396 --> 01:27:46.076
And on a given run I could see
either, but I suppose it's DNA

01:27:46.076 --> 01:27:47.666
and a little bit of learning, but.

01:27:48.221 --> 01:27:53.521
The first response to a cricket on a
run is always rattlesnake, no cricket.

01:27:54.221 --> 01:27:56.531
It's that safety first.

01:27:56.591 --> 01:28:01.821
And but by learning on that, on
that same run as I start cross

01:28:01.821 --> 01:28:06.471
passing more and more crickets, it's
never a rattlesnake until, oops.

01:28:06.471 --> 01:28:09.021
Like I misjudged that one
and, and that's a rattlesnake.

01:28:09.021 --> 01:28:14.721
But, but the role simplistically, I
think of, of the mammalian nervous

01:28:14.721 --> 01:28:19.101
system are those two things,
safety and proliferation, okay?

01:28:19.191 --> 01:28:21.136
And where

01:28:23.331 --> 01:28:23.901
we

01:28:26.361 --> 01:28:30.411
enter into somebody else's
world, a toddler, a mule, a

01:28:31.281 --> 01:28:33.471
a nonverbal autistic child.

01:28:34.401 --> 01:28:38.511
We need to enter providing
a sense of safety.

01:28:39.381 --> 01:28:42.711
And if we don't provide that, then.

01:28:43.401 --> 01:28:50.131
Any well-meaning degree approach
environment is gonna fall flat.

01:28:50.311 --> 01:29:01.351
And so the role in healing as a
physician, that sense of kind of

01:29:01.381 --> 01:29:08.281
the combination of mammalian brain
safety and mystery comes in is that

01:29:10.831 --> 01:29:17.041
the trust that I build with a child is
what extends to the family's buy-in.

01:29:17.761 --> 01:29:23.761
And in the equine assisted world, it's,
you know, you've had, you've had guests

01:29:24.031 --> 01:29:28.441
on, on your podcast for like, you
know, Rupert Isaacson's, my last shot

01:29:28.671 --> 01:29:33.681
and this, this quirky stuff that's not
a medicine is not, you know, covered

01:29:33.741 --> 01:29:35.721
initially by insurance or this or that.

01:29:35.721 --> 01:29:36.981
Is, is yet.

01:29:37.596 --> 01:29:41.796
By providing that engagement.

01:29:43.146 --> 01:29:48.906
And what I, I, I love, I don't live
with an autistic child, but I love

01:29:48.906 --> 01:29:53.506
about pre-verbal chi kill children
and non-verbal children is the

01:29:53.506 --> 01:29:55.426
authenticity of their responses.

01:29:55.726 --> 01:29:55.966
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

01:29:55.966 --> 01:29:56.146
That

01:29:57.526 --> 01:30:00.736
Mark Uranga: especially when their
families lived with that, they

01:30:00.736 --> 01:30:06.376
can see what you create, what
we create in an equine assisted

01:30:06.376 --> 01:30:09.166
world within moments at times.

01:30:09.166 --> 01:30:15.646
Now that isn't immediately the word
count or the toileting or whatever it

01:30:15.646 --> 01:30:22.156
is, but, but, but the safety that's
provided, the downregulation of all the

01:30:22.156 --> 01:30:28.816
stress hormones is what then allows for
building of those other connections.

01:30:29.536 --> 01:30:34.786
And that gets back to the idea of.

01:30:35.491 --> 01:30:44.161
A goal, the authoritative model of it's
fun to play on ponies and playing on

01:30:44.161 --> 01:30:50.401
ponies when we count the hoof beats,
moves us in a direction that we value.

01:30:50.911 --> 01:30:57.241
And so that I, I was lucky enough
this, this past week, I, I work as,

01:30:57.331 --> 01:31:00.151
as a river guide on the middle fork
of the salmon, which is a hundred

01:31:00.151 --> 01:31:03.251
miles of Wilderness River through man

01:31:03.251 --> 01:31:04.181
Rupert Isaacson: of many talents.

01:31:04.991 --> 01:31:06.611
I want to come and I
want to come and do that.

01:31:06.941 --> 01:31:08.531
Mark Uranga: Yeah, we'll
put you on the list.

01:31:08.531 --> 01:31:10.091
You would thrive.

01:31:10.161 --> 01:31:15.601
And with this upcoming inter
conversation I was expecting, I, I

01:31:16.231 --> 01:31:21.506
floating through on a raft in this
wilderness area where Bighorn sheep

01:31:21.506 --> 01:31:25.976
thrive and mountain lions and, and
this sense of awe, and I'm thinking.

01:31:26.936 --> 01:31:27.836
Why, why?

01:31:27.836 --> 01:31:31.346
Awe, why do I have awe?

01:31:31.556 --> 01:31:36.276
And and I, I don't know, but I do
believe that you're right about

01:31:36.276 --> 01:31:41.556
that humbling factor of it, the
perspective that that's provided.

01:31:42.186 --> 01:31:42.966
Why?

01:31:43.716 --> 01:31:47.256
I mean, it's, it's nice to
think of this as the smart ape,

01:31:47.496 --> 01:31:49.326
the homosapiens, I suppose.

01:31:49.356 --> 01:31:53.556
But, but what, what
purpose has that served us?

01:31:53.556 --> 01:31:55.626
And I, I know what
purpose it serves me now.

01:31:55.626 --> 01:31:57.486
And maybe that's what it's always served.

01:31:57.486 --> 01:32:05.256
It's a, a purpose of recentering, a
purpose of humility and appreciation

01:32:05.256 --> 01:32:10.416
that, you know, those rocks, we
have a lot of concerns in our world.

01:32:10.416 --> 01:32:13.986
But, but those rocks and those
cliffs, like they're gonna be there.

01:32:15.286 --> 01:32:18.706
They may have noxious weeds on
them, they may be deforested,

01:32:18.976 --> 01:32:20.326
but something about that.

01:32:20.866 --> 01:32:21.766
Is eternal.

01:32:21.976 --> 01:32:28.276
And, and maybe that's that
sense of awe allows us to let

01:32:28.756 --> 01:32:30.676
go of things and always had it.

01:32:31.426 --> 01:32:35.116
It's, we think of ourselves as
extremely challenged, but how many

01:32:35.116 --> 01:32:41.296
of us are fearful for lions behind
our back while we're still struggling

01:32:41.296 --> 01:32:45.706
to get enough berries collected
before, you know, before we starve.

01:32:45.706 --> 01:32:54.346
So those, those same emotions that
underlie that and that again, that

01:32:54.346 --> 01:32:59.386
combination of how those things
move us forward is still a mystery.

01:32:59.776 --> 01:33:07.486
And, and I think that's one of the
richness of delving into how working

01:33:07.486 --> 01:33:16.296
with a horse or a mule can, can solve
a problem that is not answered by our.

01:33:17.331 --> 01:33:24.031
Reductive approach or breaking apart
of pieces and numbers and substances

01:33:24.031 --> 01:33:26.551
and neurons and all that stuff.

01:33:27.751 --> 01:33:34.741
If we can embrace that mystery it,
I think it, it offers a, a feeling

01:33:34.741 --> 01:33:37.081
of hope as well for families.

01:33:38.371 --> 01:33:41.381
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,

01:33:41.781 --> 01:33:46.681
I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little

01:33:46.681 --> 01:33:48.931
bit about the old master system.

01:33:49.396 --> 01:33:50.706
of dressage training.

01:33:50.746 --> 01:33:59.316
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

01:33:59.386 --> 01:34:05.666
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

01:34:05.676 --> 01:34:12.196
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

01:34:12.246 --> 01:34:15.016
well being of the horse and the rider.

01:34:15.076 --> 01:34:15.816
Intrigued?

01:34:16.016 --> 01:34:16.876
Like to know more?

01:34:17.746 --> 01:34:20.576
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

01:34:22.276 --> 01:34:23.966
Check out the free introduction course.

01:34:24.526 --> 01:34:25.046
Take it from there.

01:34:25.550 --> 01:34:26.150
Yeah.

01:34:26.150 --> 01:34:28.370
And let's talk about nurturing.

01:34:28.560 --> 01:34:31.080
And then there's, there's something
else I want to return to with nature.

01:34:31.680 --> 01:34:34.440
What is the mammalian caregiving system?

01:34:34.470 --> 01:34:40.230
I think, I think this is really
worth drawing some attention to.

01:34:40.330 --> 01:34:45.030
'Cause I don't feel this is emphasized
in the sort of training which one

01:34:45.030 --> 01:34:48.210
gets in most therapeutic paradigms.

01:34:48.210 --> 01:34:52.680
I mean, it comes with things, yes, we
want to be empathetic or we want to be.

01:34:52.740 --> 01:34:53.040
Mm-hmm.

01:34:53.085 --> 01:34:53.375
Yeah.

01:34:53.490 --> 01:34:53.850
Okay.

01:34:54.150 --> 01:34:57.840
And we certainly wanna be good
to our horses and so on, but.

01:34:58.845 --> 01:35:03.465
I think it's often missed
why physical nurture

01:35:04.185 --> 01:35:04.395
Mark Uranga: mm-hmm.

01:35:04.695 --> 01:35:04.965
Is

01:35:04.965 --> 01:35:06.585
Rupert Isaacson: so important to a mammal.

01:35:07.545 --> 01:35:07.905
Right.

01:35:08.235 --> 01:35:12.465
And what a horse can give with this.

01:35:12.495 --> 01:35:15.495
Just can you talk us through a
bit the, the mammalian caregiving

01:35:15.495 --> 01:35:17.595
system as a pediatrician?

01:35:17.595 --> 01:35:17.805
Sure.

01:35:18.056 --> 01:35:19.856
Mark Uranga: Mammalian caregiving system.

01:35:19.916 --> 01:35:21.416
I love thinking about this.

01:35:21.606 --> 01:35:22.566
In two ways.

01:35:23.226 --> 01:35:27.786
One is the cold scientific way, and
that would be, it provides us with

01:35:27.786 --> 01:35:30.336
procreation and advancement of our genes.

01:35:31.326 --> 01:35:39.516
And I do believe that even within that
cold scientific kind of approach, there's

01:35:39.516 --> 01:35:43.656
now been extensive work done into.

01:35:45.336 --> 01:35:49.716
How that interaction relates to
things we would think of as mental

01:35:49.716 --> 01:35:52.356
health and wellness and fulfillment
and these sorts of things.

01:35:53.136 --> 01:36:01.926
So ultimately the, that interaction
where a baby comes out looking, quote

01:36:01.926 --> 01:36:08.526
unquote cute, they are, and we are
programmed to consider this animal

01:36:08.616 --> 01:36:10.956
vulnerable deserving of attention.

01:36:11.766 --> 01:36:18.336
And that in turn leads to
that physical connection.

01:36:18.336 --> 01:36:24.666
And, and whether riding on the back of a
horse or, or holding a toddler or dancing

01:36:24.666 --> 01:36:32.346
with your partner, those connections
create a whole cascade of, of wellbeing.

01:36:33.006 --> 01:36:37.296
That is what we think of as the bond.

01:36:37.686 --> 01:36:38.016
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:36:38.046 --> 01:36:42.996
Mark Uranga: And ma mammal, the term
mammal comes from mammary gland, which

01:36:43.086 --> 01:36:49.566
linguistically speaking, mo most languages
that I've learned have a ma in a ma

01:36:49.691 --> 01:36:52.626
ma ma in the mom, the ahma, the madre.

01:36:53.196 --> 01:36:57.456
Because the m sound is just an early
phonetic sound that babies make.

01:36:57.756 --> 01:37:03.066
And so getting back to that connection,
the first thing they're associating

01:37:03.066 --> 01:37:06.816
sound with, we have associated
sound with as a, as a culture.

01:37:06.816 --> 01:37:13.311
And a, a scientific pursuit is still
rooted in that, basically that request

01:37:13.311 --> 01:37:15.036
for attention that comes from the infant.

01:37:15.096 --> 01:37:23.876
And what we see is that in time
we've had this fluctuation of,

01:37:23.876 --> 01:37:26.066
well, what is good for a baby?

01:37:26.126 --> 01:37:31.676
Well, it's good for a baby to
have contact and to feel safe and.

01:37:32.051 --> 01:37:39.131
Yet, as I alluded earlier, we have
so little experience with babies that

01:37:39.131 --> 01:37:42.581
our first thing when we think about
their safety is not dropping them.

01:37:42.581 --> 01:37:44.351
Be careful, don't do this, don't do that.

01:37:44.681 --> 01:37:49.301
And, and they're treated with such
fear and tension that, that it doesn't

01:37:49.301 --> 01:37:53.651
take long for some kids to, to kind
of already kind of internalize that.

01:37:53.651 --> 01:37:58.361
Whereas that sense of bringing
something together, the, the night

01:37:58.361 --> 01:38:02.411
and day difference between a an
hours old baby who's un swaddled

01:38:02.411 --> 01:38:04.931
versus swaddled is very simple.

01:38:05.111 --> 01:38:07.391
And, and it gets back to that connection.

01:38:07.481 --> 01:38:11.891
And if that connection, the swaddling
occurs, and then that baby's with dad or

01:38:11.891 --> 01:38:19.141
with mom or uncle or whoever, there's,
there's this basically a connection that

01:38:19.141 --> 01:38:22.111
occurs that causes both parties to relax.

01:38:22.111 --> 01:38:26.516
And one of our ongoing struggles and.

01:38:27.631 --> 01:38:32.611
Modern medicine is, is the isolation
that occurs in, in that bonding.

01:38:32.611 --> 01:38:38.731
So we have a baby in a hospital, which
is a safer place to have a baby than

01:38:38.731 --> 01:38:44.131
a Savannah, but we have a baby in a
hospital and send a dyad, a mom and

01:38:44.131 --> 01:38:50.751
a baby, and a, and a dad three, three
people home to have a isolated experience

01:38:50.751 --> 01:38:54.741
where there's trip, you know, ideally
there are people hand off to and that

01:38:54.741 --> 01:38:58.341
sort of thing, and, and the, those
are the, the families that thrive.

01:38:58.371 --> 01:39:04.491
But, but our, our current model
separates that grouping in a

01:39:04.491 --> 01:39:11.061
way that's not supported in any
prehistorical evidence or any other

01:39:11.061 --> 01:39:13.821
kind of primate models necessarily.

01:39:14.421 --> 01:39:15.021
So.

01:39:15.936 --> 01:39:21.236
That that mammalian bond, the, the need
to feed a baby and to nurture them.

01:39:21.236 --> 01:39:26.276
Our, our babies are not pre-programmed to
swim to the ocean and make more babies.

01:39:26.276 --> 01:39:28.106
Our babies need to be fed.

01:39:28.106 --> 01:39:29.126
They need to be nurtured.

01:39:29.786 --> 01:39:31.316
And that

01:39:33.476 --> 01:39:40.376
process, because it's, it's risky for the
adult, it, it's consuming of resources

01:39:40.376 --> 01:39:41.756
and all that other sort of stuff.

01:39:42.506 --> 01:39:47.816
It, it has evolved to
create feelings of goodwill.

01:39:47.936 --> 01:39:52.466
Good, good feelings that, that make
us as parents engaged in that process.

01:39:52.556 --> 01:39:58.616
And most new parents of children or new
dog parents or whatever it is, get that

01:39:58.616 --> 01:40:02.846
early sense of attachment that this is
a different thing that I am invested in,

01:40:03.356 --> 01:40:08.546
and that that's essentially hardwired
because that's necessary for them.

01:40:09.641 --> 01:40:12.281
Procreation and the
advancement of our species.

01:40:12.281 --> 01:40:19.001
So that mammalian caregiving system
is one that we, we really interrupted

01:40:19.181 --> 01:40:27.281
in, in the modern world where we
had small family groups that were

01:40:27.281 --> 01:40:32.681
surrounded with other babies and other
caregivers and and now it becomes a

01:40:32.681 --> 01:40:36.851
kind of an individual stress that can,
that can be really hard to, to bear,

01:40:36.851 --> 01:40:38.861
especially lacking any practice in it.

01:40:39.731 --> 01:40:45.371
So we really, we recently and historically
have disrupted that, and for whatever

01:40:45.371 --> 01:40:50.291
reason, the movements over the years
have sometimes elevated the, the stay

01:40:50.291 --> 01:40:56.231
at home mom or the wet nurse or, you
know, name your model that was supposed

01:40:56.231 --> 01:40:59.291
to be a better way to raise children.

01:40:59.831 --> 01:41:02.351
And they, they've all
had their struggles and.

01:41:02.771 --> 01:41:06.821
And when we get back to that sense of
community that we kind of started with

01:41:07.421 --> 01:41:13.966
the other trusted adults, that's where
we see kids thrive when they have Yeah.

01:41:14.116 --> 01:41:17.951
That variety of engaged people.

01:41:18.881 --> 01:41:19.271
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:41:19.271 --> 01:41:22.901
And, and the hugging, the, the, the
contact, the physical contact of course.

01:41:23.471 --> 01:41:24.281
And the breastfeeding.

01:41:24.281 --> 01:41:26.001
But you know, any, any of Absolutely good.

01:41:26.166 --> 01:41:26.326
Absolutely.

01:41:26.326 --> 01:41:26.336
Yeah.

01:41:26.591 --> 01:41:27.461
Oxytocin.

01:41:28.121 --> 01:41:28.361
Mm-hmm.

01:41:28.871 --> 01:41:32.471
And oxytocin makes us not only
feel good and safe and soothed,

01:41:33.221 --> 01:41:34.451
but it makes us communicate.

01:41:34.451 --> 01:41:34.661
Right.

01:41:34.661 --> 01:41:36.281
It's the hormone of communication.

01:41:36.281 --> 01:41:40.106
So it's our survival strategy for
problem solving, for conflict resolution,

01:41:40.106 --> 01:41:43.721
and making sure that we don't all
end up eaten by the hyenas, you know?

01:41:43.781 --> 01:41:43.901
Mm-hmm.

01:41:44.891 --> 01:41:49.061
And it seems to me that, you know, when,
particularly when people are coming from

01:41:49.061 --> 01:41:51.731
a place of high stress, high cortisol.

01:41:52.571 --> 01:41:52.931
Mark Uranga: Sure.

01:41:53.031 --> 01:41:54.891
Rupert Isaacson: One of the
things a horse can do is provide

01:41:54.891 --> 01:41:56.241
an awful lot of oxytocin.

01:41:56.751 --> 01:41:56.841
Mm-hmm.

01:41:57.081 --> 01:42:00.981
Either through the movement, knocking
of the hips or through the body to body

01:42:00.981 --> 01:42:05.901
contact of such a large, welcoming animal.

01:42:06.201 --> 01:42:06.591
Mark Uranga: Yeah.

01:42:06.981 --> 01:42:09.441
Rupert Isaacson: It's
interesting though that yeah.

01:42:09.501 --> 01:42:13.671
It seems such a mystery
when really mm-hmm.

01:42:13.911 --> 01:42:14.751
All that's going on.

01:42:15.141 --> 01:42:18.411
Just a reinforcement of,
of the basic human needs.

01:42:18.591 --> 01:42:22.721
You must be, you must be familiar,
obviously with Maslow's MAs

01:42:22.751 --> 01:42:25.211
something, call him Maslow of
MAs, some people it Maslow.

01:42:25.781 --> 01:42:26.171
Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

01:42:26.411 --> 01:42:29.571
Rupert Isaacson: The social, you
know, psychologist and sort of

01:42:29.571 --> 01:42:32.691
general scientists who, who came
up with the system of human needs.

01:42:32.721 --> 01:42:33.246
Right, right.

01:42:33.591 --> 01:42:34.886
As you were hierarchy mm-hmm.

01:42:34.966 --> 01:42:35.931
The hierarchy of human needs.

01:42:35.931 --> 01:42:38.301
And as you were talking, I
pulled them up on my phone.

01:42:38.691 --> 01:42:38.841
Mm-hmm.

01:42:39.081 --> 01:42:41.931
So for those who don't know,
it starts, it's a pyramid.

01:42:41.936 --> 01:42:42.246
Mm-hmm.

01:42:42.471 --> 01:42:44.961
And it starts with
physiological needs, so.

01:42:45.111 --> 01:42:45.471
Mm-hmm.

01:42:45.711 --> 01:42:47.151
Water, food, shelter.

01:42:48.051 --> 01:42:48.801
Sleep.

01:42:49.401 --> 01:42:49.521
Mm-hmm.

01:42:50.061 --> 01:42:52.131
Warmth, air to breathe, you know?

01:42:52.436 --> 01:42:52.856
Mm-hmm.

01:42:52.941 --> 01:42:56.571
And then safety needs, personal security.

01:42:56.661 --> 01:42:58.791
I, no, violence, crime, war.

01:42:58.821 --> 01:42:58.911
Mm-hmm.

01:42:59.211 --> 01:43:00.351
Health and wellbeing.

01:43:00.421 --> 01:43:04.741
Stable environment, financial
security, safety nets, you know, food.

01:43:04.981 --> 01:43:07.951
And then only after those two
do you get love and belonging.

01:43:08.011 --> 01:43:13.411
Only after those two can you get
family, friendship, community, romantic

01:43:13.411 --> 01:43:15.601
relationships, group memberships.

01:43:15.751 --> 01:43:17.671
So like those two things have to be there.

01:43:17.821 --> 01:43:21.571
And then after that you can
get esteem, self-respect or

01:43:21.571 --> 01:43:22.711
respect within the community.

01:43:22.711 --> 01:43:25.381
And finally some idea
of self-actualization.

01:43:25.381 --> 01:43:26.911
But you need all of these
building blocks in place.

01:43:27.211 --> 01:43:30.001
What's interesting about that is
I've, I've heard, I've had, you

01:43:30.001 --> 01:43:34.681
know, many social psychologists
in, in my family, and, you know.

01:43:35.491 --> 01:43:38.311
What I only found out recently,
and you talk about living in the

01:43:38.311 --> 01:43:42.661
arid West, was that Maslow himself
came up with that because he lived

01:43:42.661 --> 01:43:44.641
with the Blackfoot Indians oh.

01:43:45.121 --> 01:43:47.161
For about six weeks in 1938.

01:43:47.731 --> 01:43:47.851
Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

01:43:48.301 --> 01:43:56.341
Rupert Isaacson: And he had this explained
to him and then never, never credited

01:43:56.641 --> 01:44:01.261
the indigenous people that he'd gotten it
from, because I think he was at Harvard.

01:44:01.361 --> 01:44:03.791
He would have been censored back then.

01:44:03.791 --> 01:44:04.931
He would've lost his job.

01:44:05.591 --> 01:44:05.951
Interesting.

01:44:05.951 --> 01:44:07.511
Because, you know of mm-hmm.

01:44:07.751 --> 01:44:12.071
Western arrogance and racism, you couldn't
say that, you know, these UGA booga

01:44:12.071 --> 01:44:13.961
people over there had given you this.

01:44:14.201 --> 01:44:17.981
But of course, so many of the
modalities that we use are indigenous.

01:44:17.981 --> 01:44:18.281
Right.

01:44:18.281 --> 01:44:22.631
So, cranial sacral work totally
came out of Native American stuff.

01:44:22.631 --> 01:44:24.431
So did, so, did oh gosh.

01:44:24.541 --> 01:44:25.051
Feldenkrais.

01:44:25.921 --> 01:44:29.921
And the Feldenkrais method and
you know, it's almost what I do.

01:44:30.041 --> 01:44:37.721
I was mentored by the Bushman, by the
son in the Kalahari, and the list goes

01:44:37.721 --> 01:44:40.661
on and, and then of course you get
into allopathic medicine and we're

01:44:40.661 --> 01:44:42.101
giving drugs and all of this stuff.

01:44:42.251 --> 01:44:43.391
Well, where do we get these drugs from?

01:44:43.391 --> 01:44:47.921
We get them from pharmacological,
pharmaceutical, pharmacological compounds,

01:44:47.921 --> 01:44:52.541
which are actually mostly plants, which
we get from indigenous people who show

01:44:52.901 --> 01:44:55.721
the people from the pharmaceutical
companies what works for mineral cramps

01:44:55.721 --> 01:44:57.731
and what works for headaches and so forth.

01:44:57.731 --> 01:45:01.961
And we get aspirin from Willow
and it's all ancestral knowledge.

01:45:02.061 --> 01:45:04.821
And then we have bedside manner, you know.

01:45:05.256 --> 01:45:07.866
There are doctors that kill their
patients because they're arrogant pricks.

01:45:08.286 --> 01:45:12.456
And there are doctors that, you know,
whose patients seem to get better, even

01:45:12.456 --> 01:45:15.576
though they didn't do as well at medical
school as the arrogant prick doctor.

01:45:15.816 --> 01:45:15.906
Right.

01:45:15.906 --> 01:45:17.946
Because they just have a good
empathetic bedside manner.

01:45:17.946 --> 01:45:22.086
And that would seem to be love and
shamanism and alterative of consciousness

01:45:22.086 --> 01:45:26.376
and placebo effect and all of these
things coming into an interplay.

01:45:27.336 --> 01:45:30.966
And yet we, we feel we have to,
to view these things through a

01:45:30.966 --> 01:45:34.026
sterile lens when actually Right.

01:45:34.206 --> 01:45:35.466
They're not at all.

01:45:35.586 --> 01:45:41.526
You are dancing that dance between
the ancestral and the modern, the

01:45:41.526 --> 01:45:44.016
allopathic and the, and the holistic.

01:45:44.676 --> 01:45:44.856
Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

01:45:44.886 --> 01:45:45.516
The

01:45:45.616 --> 01:45:49.846
Rupert Isaacson: mammalian
caregiving system and the clinical.

01:45:50.626 --> 01:45:50.776
Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

01:45:50.836 --> 01:45:52.936
Rupert Isaacson: And in the
middle of this stands the horse.

01:45:53.566 --> 01:45:53.746
Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

01:45:53.746 --> 01:45:54.376
And there you are

01:45:54.376 --> 01:45:56.956
Rupert Isaacson: on the heart and
what is the horse, of course, but.

01:45:57.841 --> 01:46:02.851
To really, for many of us, a
personification in personality of nature.

01:46:03.301 --> 01:46:03.841
Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

01:46:04.321 --> 01:46:08.491
Rupert Isaacson: As we sort of, we've hit
the two hour mark here, but as a doctor.

01:46:08.851 --> 01:46:09.151
Mark Uranga: Mm-hmm.

01:46:10.051 --> 01:46:11.221
Rupert Isaacson: What about nature?

01:46:12.181 --> 01:46:13.411
Do you prescribe it?

01:46:14.071 --> 01:46:18.871
Does na a growing number of doctors
are prescribing time in nature now?

01:46:19.411 --> 01:46:21.871
Is there such a thing as
Nature deficit disorder?

01:46:22.291 --> 01:46:28.381
What does it do to the human nervous
system to not be in contact with nature?

01:46:29.071 --> 01:46:29.731
You're a doctor.

01:46:31.411 --> 01:46:32.191
Mark Uranga: Yeah.

01:46:32.281 --> 01:46:36.601
The role of a doctor is to heal.

01:46:37.591 --> 01:46:43.831
And if we take any tool out of
our tool belt because of arrogance

01:46:43.931 --> 01:46:51.221
or a preconceived notion, we're
already neglecting our role and.

01:46:52.661 --> 01:46:53.651
Absolutely.

01:46:53.651 --> 01:46:55.811
I prescribe nature.

01:46:56.471 --> 01:46:57.461
Absolutely.

01:46:57.641 --> 01:47:05.171
I prescribe community and
absolutely there are some families

01:47:05.171 --> 01:47:06.581
that, that's not available.

01:47:07.061 --> 01:47:15.071
And, and medicine has, I always talk
about the medicines that affect mood

01:47:15.161 --> 01:47:21.791
or learning as a bridge, and it's a
lifesaving bridge for some people.

01:47:22.481 --> 01:47:31.391
And the, the and of medicine is
recognizing ideally, and, and often I fall

01:47:31.391 --> 01:47:41.261
short a goal of, of self-actualization,
a goal of, of getting to that best self.

01:47:43.091 --> 01:47:49.151
And it's kind of like following the child.

01:47:49.151 --> 01:47:50.891
Well, it is following the child.

01:47:51.311 --> 01:47:59.091
This patient this person is where
they are, and if where they are has

01:48:00.081 --> 01:48:10.671
homelessness and school volatility,
and A DHD and Ritalin stabilizes that,

01:48:11.031 --> 01:48:17.721
then that's the safety that medicine
can provide to move to that next step.

01:48:18.681 --> 01:48:22.281
And it's, it's a constant compromise.

01:48:22.381 --> 01:48:29.891
I can't bring everybody out to ride
Sam and my clinic Samuel would love it.

01:48:30.141 --> 01:48:35.231
And I wouldn't have the life
that I have now because it

01:48:35.231 --> 01:48:36.431
would all be volunteer work.

01:48:36.731 --> 01:48:43.541
But the, the awareness of that is, is
so much bigger than the clinic room.

01:48:43.541 --> 01:48:44.891
And, and this is where.

01:48:46.166 --> 01:48:51.356
Relying on people like yourself or
others that expand the conversation

01:48:51.836 --> 01:48:59.666
that don't foreclose Different ways
of both providing safety and growth.

01:49:00.806 --> 01:49:07.676
That's where families can, can
find some validation, I think.

01:49:07.676 --> 01:49:13.986
And, and, and those families that are
able to move from change their learning

01:49:13.986 --> 01:49:19.906
environment and integrate horses into
their learning or the movement is a

01:49:19.911 --> 01:49:21.646
part of the learning that they provide.

01:49:22.966 --> 01:49:25.936
That's something that I
can walk with them as well.

01:49:26.386 --> 01:49:33.346
And I just feel so lucky to have happened
in to, to people that can expand my

01:49:33.346 --> 01:49:39.916
horizons that allow me to incorporate
that vision into the work that.

01:49:42.121 --> 01:49:49.831
The clinical work that has medicines,
the clinical work that has metrics,

01:49:49.831 --> 01:49:56.131
the clinical work that, that has
numbers yet the clinical work

01:49:56.131 --> 01:49:57.571
that always has a patient with it.

01:49:57.841 --> 01:50:01.891
And, and that's, and that's a beauty
that's not lost in modern medicine.

01:50:01.921 --> 01:50:10.171
It, it may be lost in modern healthcare,
but that relationship that you

01:50:10.171 --> 01:50:15.841
mentioned that can, can help a patient
heal despite worse numbers at the

01:50:15.841 --> 01:50:19.931
start is I know I speak for the vast
majority of my colleagues when I say

01:50:19.931 --> 01:50:26.501
that's what keeps us here for all
the, the struggles that patients feel.

01:50:26.501 --> 01:50:30.431
It's, it's day in and
day out as a physician.

01:50:30.431 --> 01:50:35.471
And so when we have models
that can enrich that.

01:50:35.576 --> 01:50:45.086
In equine assisted world sort of models,
when we can bring in something where

01:50:45.086 --> 01:50:49.766
we're constantly learning, and I don't
get any CMEs for all the horse and mule

01:50:49.766 --> 01:50:54.566
clinics I've done, but, but boy has it
informed my ability to communicate with

01:50:54.566 --> 01:51:02.006
families and when, when those things
combine in, in my world, serving that

01:51:02.006 --> 01:51:07.166
patient and that family, that that
ultimate test is, is what I'm looking

01:51:07.166 --> 01:51:14.066
to, to pass that, that meeting them
where they are and walking in that, that

01:51:14.066 --> 01:51:20.046
journey it's, it's really rich and I'm
really blessed to have that opportunity.

01:51:21.186 --> 01:51:24.576
Rupert Isaacson: Should all
pediatricians go volunteer at some

01:51:24.576 --> 01:51:30.996
sort of nature-based thing to give
them that type of perspective of how

01:51:30.996 --> 01:51:33.636
human communities thrive basically.

01:51:34.056 --> 01:51:35.376
Mark Uranga: Yeah, absolutely.

01:51:35.376 --> 01:51:36.156
We should all, should it be there

01:51:36.156 --> 01:51:37.026
Rupert Isaacson: in medical school?

01:51:37.356 --> 01:51:37.926
Mark Uranga: Yeah.

01:51:37.956 --> 01:51:38.706
Yes.

01:51:38.706 --> 01:51:43.416
And it absolutely, and, and it,
and it is through some of your work

01:51:43.416 --> 01:51:45.786
obviously, and, and, and others.

01:51:45.846 --> 01:51:54.936
I think that that era of arrogant
medicine is hopefully passing and

01:51:54.936 --> 01:52:00.726
humble, humble medicine that's not,
this is similar to the, the balance

01:52:00.726 --> 01:52:05.076
that we talked about with authoritarian,
authoritative, and passive mm-hmm.

01:52:05.316 --> 01:52:06.096
Guidance.

01:52:06.306 --> 01:52:06.486
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:52:07.146 --> 01:52:08.766
Mark Uranga: There is
expertise in medicine.

01:52:08.771 --> 01:52:09.061
There are

01:52:09.651 --> 01:52:10.461
Rupert Isaacson: sure studies,

01:52:10.591 --> 01:52:12.876
Mark Uranga: there are
medicines, there are are known

01:52:13.266 --> 01:52:17.106
approaches that should be given.

01:52:17.376 --> 01:52:23.286
When, when people are looking
for a paradigm that offers that

01:52:23.526 --> 01:52:27.936
it should be provided, it should
be allowed that we have this.

01:52:29.031 --> 01:52:30.711
That we have other opportunities.

01:52:30.711 --> 01:52:35.391
What, what isn't fair to a, to a
family and to a patient is to just

01:52:35.391 --> 01:52:39.111
give them a menu and say, I'll come
back when you're ready to order.

01:52:39.471 --> 01:52:41.451
It's it's, this is your menu.

01:52:41.451 --> 01:52:41.786
And or

01:52:41.786 --> 01:52:44.781
Rupert Isaacson: worse, say,
you must go down only this path

01:52:44.931 --> 01:52:45.681
Mark Uranga: or even worse.

01:52:45.681 --> 01:52:45.921
Yes.

01:52:45.921 --> 01:52:48.201
Or medications or whatever, or Exactly.

01:52:48.411 --> 01:52:48.801
Right.

01:52:48.801 --> 01:52:54.261
These, these either extremes are
those that don't serve families well.

01:52:54.321 --> 01:53:02.361
And we, with a place like the Worm Springs
Care Farm and other practitioners in the

01:53:02.361 --> 01:53:08.691
area, we are, we're lucky to, to hold
those up as options and we are quite

01:53:08.691 --> 01:53:17.661
fortunate that we can provide certain
medicines that serve as a bridge for those

01:53:17.661 --> 01:53:23.151
families that aren't in the, the place
of safety and security to embrace that

01:53:23.151 --> 01:53:25.221
next step and that self-actualization.

01:53:25.226 --> 01:53:25.406
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:53:26.541 --> 01:53:31.431
Mark Uranga: It's, it's a rich
area that that we get to play with

01:53:31.431 --> 01:53:37.731
as, as hopefully equine assisted
work movement method sort of work.

01:53:38.361 --> 01:53:46.641
Those things that embrace the holistic
improvement in, in function of any person

01:53:46.831 --> 01:53:51.181
whether a neurodivergent a DHD anxious.

01:53:52.321 --> 01:53:56.671
Those, those combination of things
are gonna be the most successful.

01:53:59.341 --> 01:53:59.641
Rupert Isaacson: It's a

01:53:59.691 --> 01:54:03.581
it's a great delight to hear
a doctor say this and we are

01:54:03.581 --> 01:54:04.811
beginning to see this change.

01:54:04.811 --> 01:54:05.141
There's a.

01:54:06.116 --> 01:54:09.686
A horse boy Movement method center in
the UK called Move the Mind run by an

01:54:09.686 --> 01:54:11.606
amazing person called Nicole Gillard.

01:54:11.636 --> 01:54:14.486
And they're close to Bristol
University, which is one of the

01:54:14.486 --> 01:54:16.076
big medical schools in the uk.

01:54:16.076 --> 01:54:21.326
And now she gets the medical students
that she was contacted by the university.

01:54:21.326 --> 01:54:25.246
Of course, a lot of the medical
students are horsey girls and they now

01:54:25.246 --> 01:54:29.876
come out and the university pays her
to do their mental health electives.

01:54:30.446 --> 01:54:30.536
Mm-hmm.

01:54:30.776 --> 01:54:35.826
There and as you may know there's a,
a, a fairly eminent physician, Dr.

01:54:35.826 --> 01:54:36.936
Megan Mcal

01:54:37.356 --> 01:54:37.566
Mark Uranga: Yep.

01:54:37.626 --> 01:54:40.536
Rupert Isaacson: In Virginia, who
is an autism mom who runs a really

01:54:40.536 --> 01:54:44.916
good practice autism movement method
and horse boy practice called Chats.

01:54:45.036 --> 01:54:45.126
Mm-hmm.

01:54:45.626 --> 01:54:47.216
In Yorktown in Virginia.

01:54:47.216 --> 01:54:51.926
But she, her work was instrumental in
getting East Virginia Medical School,

01:54:51.926 --> 01:54:54.206
which is part of Old Dominion University.

01:54:55.016 --> 01:55:00.596
To put on last year a neuroscience
conference specifically for pediatricians,

01:55:01.256 --> 01:55:03.446
looking at nature-based solutions.

01:55:03.446 --> 01:55:07.386
And we, we ran it last year with
various neurosciences and so on.

01:55:07.716 --> 01:55:10.506
Would you, I think we're
gonna do it again next year.

01:55:10.716 --> 01:55:14.696
Would you come and be a speaker
there and present and people could

01:55:14.696 --> 01:55:16.016
then come and talk to you and,

01:55:17.936 --> 01:55:18.446
Mark Uranga: yeah, sure.

01:55:18.986 --> 01:55:19.266
I'd be questions.

01:55:19.266 --> 01:55:19.676
I'd be honored.

01:55:20.276 --> 01:55:23.246
I'm not sure if I'll be able
to bring Sam to Virginia.

01:55:25.706 --> 01:55:27.296
Rupert Isaacson: You have to
at least show us some video.

01:55:27.576 --> 01:55:28.146
There we go.

01:55:28.146 --> 01:55:28.386
Mark Uranga: Yeah.

01:55:28.866 --> 01:55:29.826
I would be honored.

01:55:30.416 --> 01:55:30.566
Rupert Isaacson: I missed

01:55:30.836 --> 01:55:34.046
Mark Uranga: that last opportunity,
but, but it would be a pleasure.

01:55:34.516 --> 01:55:38.266
Rupert Isaacson: And then
Warm Springs Care Farm.

01:55:38.656 --> 01:55:38.896
Mm-hmm.

01:55:39.086 --> 01:55:42.776
I presume people can find this online
if they type in Warm Springs Care

01:55:42.776 --> 01:55:44.696
Farm, Boise, Idaho, that, yeah.

01:55:45.956 --> 01:55:46.106
Right.

01:55:46.256 --> 01:55:46.436
Yep.

01:55:47.036 --> 01:55:49.876
And, you probably don't wanna give
away your private email over the,

01:55:50.086 --> 01:55:51.791
over the internet, but perhaps

01:55:52.066 --> 01:55:53.896
Mark Uranga: I, I'm okay.

01:55:53.896 --> 01:55:57.096
I've actually inspired by you
and others, I've just started

01:55:57.096 --> 01:56:00.756
to dabble in, in a podcast that
I do have an associated email.

01:56:01.326 --> 01:56:01.626
Great.

01:56:01.676 --> 01:56:05.606
My podcast is called The Kid
Wrangler so far it's just on

01:56:05.606 --> 01:56:09.566
Spotify the Kid Wrangler on Spotify.

01:56:09.566 --> 01:56:14.216
And then the email address that
people are welcome to email me at

01:56:14.216 --> 01:56:17.636
is the Idaho Kid wrangler@gmail.com,

01:56:18.476 --> 01:56:18.536
the

01:56:18.536 --> 01:56:22.316
Rupert Isaacson: Idaho
Kid wrangler@gmail.com.

01:56:22.316 --> 01:56:22.706
Brilliant.

01:56:24.146 --> 01:56:25.076
I look forward to listening.

01:56:25.676 --> 01:56:26.246
Mark Uranga: Yeah.

01:56:26.876 --> 01:56:27.596
Well, thanks.

01:56:27.626 --> 01:56:28.976
Thanks for inviting me.

01:56:29.276 --> 01:56:33.686
I, I am largely here because of
the amazing work you're doing and,

01:56:33.686 --> 01:56:39.626
and seeing any improvement and, and
how people do is just rewarding.

01:56:40.436 --> 01:56:40.616
Thank you.

01:56:40.616 --> 01:56:41.666
Shared as a community.

01:56:42.686 --> 01:56:43.046
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.

01:56:43.421 --> 01:56:45.251
I shall be seeing you down the trail then.

01:56:45.881 --> 01:56:46.421
Mark Uranga: Alright.

01:56:46.811 --> 01:56:47.291
Rupert Isaacson: All right.

01:56:47.291 --> 01:56:48.131
Thank you again.

01:56:48.671 --> 01:56:49.001
Mark Uranga: Thank you.

01:56:49.631 --> 01:56:49.961
Bye.

01:56:50.051 --> 01:56:53.171
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today's conversation as much as I did.

01:56:53.711 --> 01:56:58.611
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