00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:19,480 [Bill] [upbeat music] So welcome to our continuing conversations for a wild and connected world, what we call the Wild Idea Podcast. And welcome to the stage at Lake Baked in Big Fork, Montana. It is Whitewater Festival weekend, and I'm so excited to be joined here by, in my home, by my partner in crime, Anders. 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:56,120 [Anders] Oh, hi, Bill. It is so fun to be here in Big Fork with you recording live, and it's a beautiful day. I wanna set the scene for everybody listening. About 100 yards to our left is the wild mile of the Swan River, and we're already seeing some, some boats involved in the Whitewater Festival coming down. About half a mile to our left is, is Big Fork Cove of Flathead Lake. And of course, right in front of us is the backyard of Lake Baked. It looks beautiful. There are some folks here to hear us. I would say an adoring throng. 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:56,460 [Bill] [laughs] 00:00:56,460 --> 00:00:58,920 [Anders] Would you, would you use the word throng? 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:00,200 [Bill] Maybe mob? 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:00,940 [Anders] [laughs] 00:01:00,940 --> 00:01:01,110 [Bill] Yeah, a mob. 00:01:01,110 --> 00:01:03,340 [Anders] They seem angry. A mob. They look- 00:01:03,340 --> 00:01:03,350 [Janet] No 00:01:03,350 --> 00:01:04,379 [Anders] ... they look pretty angry- 00:01:04,379 --> 00:01:04,540 [Janet] No 00:01:04,540 --> 00:01:11,560 [Anders] ... come to think of it. And some of them are embarrassed. We have some friends here that won't allow us to say their names. I don't know if they're more embarrassed of you or of me. 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:12,600 [Bill] Probably you. 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:13,410 [Anders] Probably. 00:01:13,410 --> 00:01:13,660 [Bill] Let's keep it- 00:01:13,660 --> 00:01:29,960 [Anders] Um, but not everyone here is, is angry with us or embarrassed by us. In fact, you wanna introduce us to one of your friends. One of the things that, that I think about when I think about Montana, I think grizzly bears, lifted Chevy Silverados, and of course, snickerdoodles. [laughs] Right? 00:01:29,960 --> 00:01:42,060 [Bill] Yeah. Well, you came to the right place to talk about snickerdoodles in Montana. 'Cause as we said, we are at Lake Baked, and, uh, it's just, uh, one of my favorite places on the planet, and we are joined by the owner, Jana. Thank you for joining us. 00:01:42,060 --> 00:01:44,420 [Janet] Thank you, Bill. It's great to be here. 00:01:44,420 --> 00:01:47,460 [Bill] Tell people about Lake Baked and about Big Fork a little bit. 00:01:47,460 --> 00:02:34,060 [Janet] Okay. So Lake Baked, we've owned this... This is our seventh season. Uh, we opened in COVID. We're at the location. We have the best location, as you said, Anders, on the river. And since 1991, the cinnamon rolls that we make, and the snickerdoodles that we make, and a number of other, uh, recipes were made here by Brookie's Cookies. And, uh, we took over in 2020, and we brought a bunch of our own recipes. Uh, my granny's rolls and quiche, savory rolls, which have garlic butter with bacon and cheese. So we have a number of, a number of items. Someone in the audience is giving me a thumbs up. 00:02:34,060 --> 00:02:34,120 [Anders] [laughs] 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:34,800 [Janet] Yes. Yes. 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:36,780 [Anders] Okay. So they're, they're definitely not angry at you. 00:02:36,780 --> 00:02:37,130 [Janet] Yeah, yeah. 00:02:37,130 --> 00:02:37,480 [Anders] It's, it's either me or Bill. 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:39,020 [Janet] It's definitely you guys. 00:02:39,020 --> 00:02:39,130 [Anders] [laughs] 00:02:39,130 --> 00:03:05,220 [Janet] Um, and my daughter and I own it. We co-own it, my daughter, Sadie. And, um, it's a labor of love. We, we love baking. We love feeding people. We don't necessarily love getting up at 3:00 in the morning, but, um, but the rest of it we love. And we also have our Riverview Bar that shows up at night, and we've got great live music. Yeah, that's who we are. 00:03:05,220 --> 00:03:11,980 [Bill] Well, it's just such a- an honor to, for you to have us here. Thank you for letting us be here on this, uh, beautiful weekend. 00:03:11,980 --> 00:03:12,520 [Janet] Absolutely. 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:13,630 [Bill] The Whitewater Festival. This is- 00:03:13,630 --> 00:03:16,580 [Anders] I just, I just wanna correct Bill. He said it's an honor for you to have us here. 00:03:16,580 --> 00:03:17,730 [Janet] [laughs] I did notice that. 00:03:17,730 --> 00:03:17,780 [Anders] You heard that. 00:03:17,780 --> 00:03:18,329 [Janet] I did notice that. 00:03:18,329 --> 00:03:21,140 [Anders] It's an honor for us to be here with you, I wanna make clear. 00:03:21,140 --> 00:03:21,150 [Janet] [laughs] 00:03:21,150 --> 00:03:23,140 [Anders] And I think that's probably good for a free snickerdoodle. 00:03:23,140 --> 00:03:25,510 [Janet] I loved it. It is an honor for me to have you here too. [laughs] 00:03:25,510 --> 00:03:26,760 [Anders] Unbelievable. 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:28,160 [Bill] And the pleasure is all yours. 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:30,500 [Janet] Right. Exactly. [laughs] 00:03:30,500 --> 00:03:54,640 [Bill] No, it's just great to be here. You, you were so gracious years ago to, to host a great event for the Bob Marshall Wilderness Foundation here. You do so much amazing things for the community. I see the outdoor space here at Lake Baked as sort of the hub of downtown Big Fork. If you wanna know what's going on, come hang out here. You'll figure out what's going on in town. And, and, um, my only sad note is that you actually have to take a break in the winter, and I have to- 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:54,740 [Janet] Right 00:03:54,740 --> 00:04:01,160 [Bill] ... jones for those, uh, for those snickerdoodles during the winter. But it, it makes me appreciate it all the more when the, the season comes back around. 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:03,200 [Janet] Good, good. Yeah, I have to see my grandsons. 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:03,450 [Bill] Yeah. 00:04:03,450 --> 00:04:41,240 [Janet] And I do wanna just quickly add that, um, uh, Community for a Better Big Fork, um, they just have raised the money to buy the property. And so, v- uh, since Big Fork is an unincorporated village, um, we have a couple of organizations who take care of, uh, the, the roads and the sidewalks, and they now own the property that my businesses are on. And that means it's not going to be sold and turned into condos or a boutique hotel or something. It's, it's going to be a community place for, um, hopefully forever. 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:42,159 [Anders] Hopefully forever. 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:44,170 [Bill] Yeah. I mean, it's such a special part of Big Fork. 00:04:44,170 --> 00:04:44,200 [Janet] Yeah. 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:45,010 [Bill] And I- 00:04:45,010 --> 00:04:45,330 [Janet] It is 00:04:45,330 --> 00:04:53,000 [Bill] ... and, and, and folks, uh, if you live in Northwest Montana, you should think about supporting Community for a Better Big Fork. They, they basically have to serve as our village government- 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:53,100 [Janet] Yep 00:04:53,100 --> 00:04:56,110 [Bill] ... and replace the sewers, you know, lined- 00:04:56,110 --> 00:04:56,110 [Janet] Yep 00:04:56,110 --> 00:05:01,200 [Bill] ... when they need to be replaced, and were instrumental in helping with the bridge, you know, getting rebuilt and- 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:02,560 [Janet] And the Swan River Trail. 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:03,700 [Bill] Yeah, Swan River Trail. 00:05:03,700 --> 00:05:03,740 [Janet] Yep. 00:05:03,740 --> 00:05:05,310 [Bill] So many great things going on in Big Fork. 00:05:05,310 --> 00:05:05,320 [Janet] Yep. 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:23,560 [Bill] So those of you out across the country listening to this, I highly encourage you to come, uh, to come to Big Fork, Montana. It's an amazing place. We got the, you know, the Harold Forest and s- so many other amazing natural resources, uh, to come enjoy, j- the Jewel Basin and, and, uh, yeah, lots of things. So Jana, thanks for having us. 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:24,680 [Janet] Yeah. Thank you. 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:24,700 [Bill] Yeah. 00:05:24,700 --> 00:05:27,420 [Janet] Thanks for, uh, inviting me up. This was fun. 00:05:27,420 --> 00:05:28,150 [Anders] Thank you so much. 00:05:28,150 --> 00:05:28,240 [Janet] Yeah. 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:29,700 [Anders] And again, you're welcome. [laughs] 00:05:29,700 --> 00:05:32,080 [Janet] Yeah, exactly. It was an honor. 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:44,190 [Bill] So now we welcome to the show a dear friend of mine. I love it when I get to have, uh, folks that, uh, I've known for a long time. The executive director of the Flathead Rivers Alliance, Sheena Pate. Sheena, welcome to the show. 00:05:44,190 --> 00:05:48,340 [Sheena] Thank you for having me. Great as always to see you, Bill. Anders, nice to meet you. 00:05:48,340 --> 00:05:50,130 [Anders] Very nice to meet you as well. 00:05:50,130 --> 00:05:50,200 [Sheena] [laughs] 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:57,112 [Bill] So it's gonna be kind of a walk down memory lane for me a little bit, but-The Flathead Rivers Alliance was founded in 2019. 00:05:57,112 --> 00:05:57,652 [Sheena] Mm-hmm. 00:05:57,652 --> 00:06:05,192 [Bill] Can you talk about the moment that gave rise to this new organ- relatively new organization? What led to the creation of the alliance? 00:06:05,192 --> 00:06:44,852 [Sheena] Yeah, absolutely. So 2019, pre-COVID, there was a drastic increase in river usership pre-COVID. And so that, combined with the comprehensive river management plan that was supposed to roll out, so an update to the 1980s plan, um, both of those combined, that really spearheaded the movement for guides, businesses, community members, agency folks to recognize that they needed an organization to help connect everyone together and really leverage everyone's strengths to protect the resource long-term for the three forks of the Flathead. 00:06:44,852 --> 00:06:49,632 [Bill] You mentioned a comprehensive river management plan. Could you talk a little bit about what that is? 00:06:49,632 --> 00:07:26,092 [Sheena] Yeah, absolutely. So a comprehensive river management plan for national wild and scenic rivers, that is a plan with which the administrators of the river system help to manage the resource to protect it long-term, uphold its outstanding remarkable values. Our river system is still currently operating on pretty much the original 1980s version, so a lot has changed since then. Um, and so they're mandated congressionally to update it every 15, 20-ish years. And now we're 2026, so we see the new one rolling out any day now. [laughs] 00:07:26,092 --> 00:07:30,212 [Anders] You mentioned outstanding remarkable values, and we're definitely gonna dig into that in a minute. 00:07:30,212 --> 00:07:30,222 [Sheena] Perfect. [laughs] 00:07:30,222 --> 00:07:42,712 [Anders] But before we do, I just wanted to ask, what's your personal origin story with the Flathead River System? Was there a float or a moment or a season that really inspired you to do the work that you do? 00:07:42,712 --> 00:08:18,532 [Sheena] Yeah, absolutely. So the, the Flathead River System, especially the headwaters, is a special place for many folks. Um, I'm originally from Texas. I've been out west since 2002. The river I grew up on was... I'd seen it go from just having a few people recreating it, on it, my dad and I being able to easily wade and cast our rods and fly fish as inner tubers go by, and now I've seen that same river system get up to 400,000 inner tubers. Um, so when I moved out west in 2002, just coming up to glacier country, 00:08:19,652 --> 00:08:34,472 [Sheena] it really grabs you. It's a magical place. And to have a free-flowing river that is one of the wildest in North America is pretty spectacular. So being able to have experiences close to what I grew up with in my younger years, um, that really grabbed me. 00:08:36,372 --> 00:09:03,732 [Bill] You know, I've had the, the joy of being able to watch from the inside and then from the outside just what you have done with the Flathead Rivers Alliance. In just a few years, you and FRA have built out a river ambassador program, a noxious weeds program, water quality monitoring, you know, the youth programming you're doing, the information that you have volunteers providing at put-ins. How have you managed to put all that together under this one mission in such a short time? 00:09:03,732 --> 00:09:05,002 [Sheena] A lot of glitter. [laughs] 00:09:05,002 --> 00:09:07,452 [Anders] [laughs] I see some today. 00:09:07,452 --> 00:09:50,012 [Sheena] Oh, I put it on a lot. Yeah. Um, so about fi- When I came on in 2021, my job was to really just start a pilot river ambassador program. Um, but because we were now an organization that was responsible for pulling all the pieces, parts together, everyone was coming to us with their desires and needs and wants for the river system. So our portfolio quickly grew, and we had to decide what were the priority projects, um, not only to protect the resource but to ensure people were recreating responsibly and safely on the river system. So we've, we've built out quite the portfolio of key programs of umbrellas. 00:09:50,012 --> 00:09:51,872 [Bill] How do you have time to sleep? 00:09:51,872 --> 00:09:53,882 [Sheena] I don't. [laughs] 00:09:53,882 --> 00:09:53,892 [Anders] [laughs] 00:09:53,892 --> 00:09:54,772 [Sheena] It's all about the glitter. 00:09:55,992 --> 00:09:56,732 [Sheena] [laughs] 00:09:56,792 --> 00:09:59,632 [Anders] So earlier, I was describing the backyard of Lake Bakht- 00:09:59,632 --> 00:09:59,642 [Sheena] Mm-hmm 00:09:59,642 --> 00:10:06,462 [Anders] ... but I, I wanna describe sort of the ecosystem that we're talking about here. The three forks drain into Flathead Lake- 00:10:06,462 --> 00:10:06,462 [Sheena] Mm-hmm 00:10:06,462 --> 00:10:10,012 [Anders] ... which is the largest natural freshwater lake west of the Mississippi. 00:10:10,012 --> 00:10:10,492 [Sheena] Excellent. 00:10:10,492 --> 00:10:13,661 [Anders] The river system also sits at the heart of the Crown of the Continent- 00:10:13,661 --> 00:10:13,661 [Sheena] Mm-hmm 00:10:13,661 --> 00:10:22,892 [Anders] ... and supports the largest grizzly bear population in the lower 48. That's incredible. And two of the forks form the boundary of Glacier National Park. Ugh, that's a lot. 00:10:22,892 --> 00:10:23,111 [Sheena] [laughs] 00:10:23,112 --> 00:10:32,492 [Anders] How do you, like, help people grasp the scale of what they're connected to when they're just floating a single stretch of the river on any given afternoon? 00:10:32,492 --> 00:11:10,172 [Sheena] Yeah, that's certainly a feat to try to tackle, for sure. Um, so over 219 miles of nationally designated wild and scenic river on the north, the south, and the middle fork. We have a northern section, which is actually called the Transboundary Flathead, so, um, the northern section of the North Fork, which is in Ktunaxa Nation or British Columbia. Each river has its own personality, so figuring out how to tell the story, how to safely recreate it, but also what is the history behind that specific river. Each river has additional layers of protection that are unique to it. 00:11:10,172 --> 00:11:27,852 [Bill] So the north, middle, and south forks each have that, you know, sort of unique character. How would you describe each one of them to somebody who's never been out here, and what makes protecting all three together so important? Like, they each, they all... each definitely have their own character, right? And they ha- they're protected for different values, too. 00:11:27,852 --> 00:12:24,148 [Sheena] Mm-hmm. Yeah, so each river, they have outstanding remarkable values that the administrators are congressionally mandated to protect. So that could be wildlife, it could be scenic, it could be recreational, ethnography. The list goes on and on and on. Um, not every fork has the same, but there are a lot of overlapping ones. Um, the North Fork is so wild, and it feels yet so peaceful.Um, all three forks are, they're free flowing, the North Fork coming out of British Columbia Ktunaxa nation. It has an add- added layer of protection with MOUs, so no mountaintop removal can happen, no natural resource extraction or exploration. Timber harvest can happen. Um, but other than that, um, it borders Flathead National Forest, Glacier National Park. It is just a gem of a place, exceptional place to have just really peaceful nights under the night sky. 00:12:24,148 --> 00:12:25,948 [Bill] And, and multi-day floats too, right? 00:12:25,948 --> 00:12:25,958 [Sheena] Absolutely. 00:12:25,958 --> 00:12:27,328 [Bill] To, to help people understand, like- 00:12:27,328 --> 00:12:27,398 [Sheena] Yeah 00:12:27,398 --> 00:12:31,148 [Bill] ... you could put in at the Canadian border and do four or five days coming down the North Fork, right? 00:12:31,148 --> 00:12:54,098 [Sheena] Yeah. So the North Fork has incredible cobble. We call them rainbow rocks or rainbow, rainbow paddel- pebbles because of the different colors of the rocks. Um, yeah, North Fork is an excellent multi-day river. It... You have to work a little harder to get to it, the North Fork road. It- it's laced with potholes that can swallow small cars. [laughs] 00:12:54,098 --> 00:12:54,808 [Bill] [laughs] 00:12:54,808 --> 00:13:28,968 [Sheena] Um, but it's absolutely worth it. And then you have the Middle Fork, uh, which we could dive into that story much more. But that- that's more of your action-packed. It has the white water section. That's where you see predominantly most of the permitted raft companies that are running trips. It's your splashy, um, really get out there. And then you have your south, the Upper South Fork and the Upper Middle Fork that flow out of the Bob Marshall Wilderness. So just to get back there, you might be hiring a pack string, or you might be flying into a historic, um, landing strip. 00:13:28,968 --> 00:13:30,448 [Bill] Yeah, Shafer Meadows. It's a great way- 00:13:30,448 --> 00:13:30,478 [Sheena] Shafer Meadows, yes 00:13:30,478 --> 00:13:31,648 [Bill] ... to get to Middle Fork, yeah. 00:13:31,648 --> 00:13:32,158 [Sheena] [laughs] 00:13:32,158 --> 00:13:39,148 [Bill] And more, and more affordable than people might think. I mean, those flights in are, are not quite as cost-prohibitive as some people might think. 00:13:39,148 --> 00:13:56,128 [Sheena] Yeah. We're kind of running into, just because it's a little easier to get back there, it's not as cost-prohibited, there's a lot of folks that are ending up back there that maybe may n- are not prepared for the recreational level with which it requires nor the equipment. 00:13:56,128 --> 00:13:59,208 [Anders] You brought up outstanding remarkable values again, ORVs. 00:13:59,208 --> 00:13:59,408 [Sheena] Mm-hmm. 00:13:59,408 --> 00:14:01,967 [Anders] And you said the list goes on and on and on. 00:14:01,967 --> 00:14:02,108 [Sheena] Yeah. 00:14:02,108 --> 00:14:05,068 [Anders] I'm not gonna let you get away with that. You're gonna have to go down the list in a minute. 00:14:05,068 --> 00:14:05,288 [Sheena] [laughs] 00:14:05,288 --> 00:14:19,168 [Anders] So outstanding remarkable values is a, is a term that does a lot of legal work under the Wild and, and Scenic Rivers Act. But it probably just sounds, to someone listening for the first time, like a bunch of bureaucratic jargon. 00:14:19,168 --> 00:14:20,158 [Sheena] Absolutely, yeah. [laughs] 00:14:20,158 --> 00:14:22,868 [Anders] Um, can you break down what ORVs actually are- 00:14:22,868 --> 00:14:22,878 [Sheena] Mm-hmm 00:14:22,878 --> 00:14:26,828 [Anders] ... and, and why they matter to the way a river is managed? 00:14:26,828 --> 00:15:21,918 [Sheena] Yeah. So national wild and scenic rivers, they need to have outstanding water quality, they need to be free flowing, and not most importantly, but the part with which the agencies really have to manage for are those outstanding remarkable values, so we'll just say ORVs. Fisheries, so really working with an interdisciplinary team of FWP, the Forest Service, the Park Service, the tribes, um, monitoring what the fish population is of our native bull trout, our native westslope cutthroat. Is that population, because they're endangered, are they being managed appropriately so that they can be sustained? And that impacts the open season for bull trout for people to target them when they're fishing. So there's a lot at play. You have recreation. There's a lot that goes into this matrix, and they a- all have to live together to really ensure the overall health of the resource. 00:15:21,918 --> 00:15:22,688 [Anders] Yeah. 00:15:22,688 --> 00:15:26,708 [Bill] We step aside for a word from our sponsor, and we'll be right back with more of the conversation. 00:15:27,848 --> 00:15:32,448 [Anders] I'm Schuyler Begay from Tucson, Arizona, and you're listening to The Wild Idea. 00:15:32,448 --> 00:15:41,348 [Bill] You know, a, a river and a river system like that is inherently dynamic. It, it changes season to season. It changes based on snow pack, which w- we're probably gonna be- 00:15:41,348 --> 00:15:41,537 [Sheena] Yeah 00:15:41,537 --> 00:15:44,328 [Bill] ... seeing how low the flows might get this year- 00:15:44,328 --> 00:15:44,338 [Sheena] Mm 00:15:44,338 --> 00:16:04,448 [Bill] ... because we had a relatively, uh, light snow year here in Northwest Montana. Um, how do you build a stewardship culture around a river system that is inherently changing? You know, the old line, you never stand in the same river twice, right? Like, how do you build that culture around how season to season the work might be a little bit different? 00:16:04,448 --> 00:17:03,088 [Sheena] Yeah, so it's kind of multifaceted. We provide opportunities for people to engage with the resource, but most importantly, um, with the river community. And through our River Ambassador Program, we have volunteers, boots on the ground. I would say probably half of our volunteers for that program actually don't have a water recreational equipment that they can float down. They just really love being at the river. Um, a portion of those are folks are new to the area. So it just provides an opportunity for them to create community around people that may be coming from different backgrounds and beliefs, but they all care about this resource. And then also providing those, um... I know when you were with the Bob Marshall Wilderness Foundation, the whole slogan, boots on the ground, so feet in the water for us, is providing those opportunities to do noxious weed pulls. We host a one event every year that hosts 165 volunteers that are really excited to float down the river- 00:17:03,088 --> 00:17:03,098 [Bill] Yeah 00:17:03,098 --> 00:17:19,008 [Sheena] ... and pull noxious weeds for hours on end, and trash pulls. So having that multifaceted dynamic program of providing opportunities for people to create community around a resource and also engage in the actual hands-on stewardship of it. 00:17:19,008 --> 00:17:20,098 [Anders] The weed pull rodeo. 00:17:20,098 --> 00:17:20,128 [Sheena] Yeah. 00:17:20,128 --> 00:17:26,938 [Anders] How did that tradition start? How do you get community members invested enough to pull weeds for, you know, a time? That's- 00:17:26,938 --> 00:17:58,578 [Sheena] I- [laughs] Yeah, absolutely. So it just takes finding those folks in the community that people are really drawn to. So Brenda Guzman, she started this. I think we're in our 20- first, 22nd year of doing it. So that program has existed way before Flathead Rivers Alliance came around. She was a raft guide at the time. She'd been floating past these gravel bars with noxious weeds and was like, "We gotta do something here, guys. And if we, uh, if we throw a barbecue after, no one's gonna be able to refuse this." 00:17:58,578 --> 00:17:59,028 [Bill] [laughs] 00:17:59,028 --> 00:18:31,640 [Sheena] Beer and barbecue, people are there. Uh, so when I came on board about five years ago with Flathead Rivers Alliance, we took that under our umbrella, so we're able to provide her additional support. But yeah, we have, um, aDifferent 4H groups, MCC crews, families, church groups, they all come out. We partner with the raft companies, so half the f- um, folks that go are private boaters. The other ones we're able to provide a free opportunity for them to get on the river and pull noxious weeds and have a barbecue after. 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:41,800 [Anders] And is the strategy for the Rivers Ambassadors Program the same? Like, what are those... How did those conversations look in the past? What do they look like today? What do people not know that they need to know? 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:51,440 [Sheena] Yeah. So this is gonna sound silly. A lot of... Not a lot of people, but a decent portion of people that show up to the river don't understand we're not a lazy river. Like, where you put on- 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:51,450 [Anders] Bill 00:18:51,450 --> 00:18:53,460 [Sheena] ... is not where you're [laughs] gonna- 00:18:53,460 --> 00:18:55,070 [Anders] I'm looking for lazy anything, so. 00:18:55,070 --> 00:19:27,890 [Sheena] You're gonna take out. Absolutely. So just understanding, and we're constantly with our river ambassadors and them engaging the public. We're- we are seeing a shift in the river user. We have our more traditional, they're used to, like, the Northwest rivers and the dynamics and, um, the changing variabilities of it. But then we have a lot of people that are new to the area, really excited to embrace what is here, but they don't have the skills. They don't have the know-how. They've gone to Costco or they've bought a very expensive NRS raft. They show up to the access point, and they're pumping it up there. 00:19:27,890 --> 00:19:27,979 [Anders] Yeah. 00:19:27,980 --> 00:19:33,130 [Sheena] So really helping to provide tools in person and online to help them. 00:19:33,130 --> 00:19:37,620 [Anders] I think this is something that Bill and I have seen for a long time and, and have now talked about on the podcast for a while- 00:19:37,620 --> 00:19:37,760 [Sheena] Yeah 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:42,680 [Anders] ... is that there is increased pressure, and that increased pressure comes with a need for increased education. 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:43,080 [Sheena] Mm-hmm. 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:48,660 [Anders] But at the same time, like, there are public lands and waters. Everyone has a right to them. So I'm, I'm really glad you've started a program like this- 00:19:48,660 --> 00:19:48,670 [Sheena] Yeah 00:19:48,670 --> 00:19:51,640 [Anders] ... that kind of teaches people how to get there, get out there safely. 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:57,460 [Sheena] Yeah, absolutely. Trying to strike a balance of learn on your own, but also let's do this safely- 00:19:57,460 --> 00:19:57,740 [Anders] Yeah 00:19:57,740 --> 00:19:58,680 [Sheena] ... when we can. 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:13,000 [Bill] Well, I think one important role, so in the draft of the new comprehensive river management plan that we mentioned earlier, is, are a couple changes that even locals may not know about yet, right? So the requirement for having a fire blanket or a fire pan- 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:13,010 [Anders] Mm 00:20:13,010 --> 00:20:32,180 [Bill] ... no more having open fires in a, you know, rock bar in the middle of the river. The, the controversial point about open and unlimited permits, but you have to have a permit. A good reminder of the emphasis on, uh, human waste outside the 200-foot zone of the river. Like, if it wasn't for Flathead Rivers Alliance ambassadors out there sharing that information- 00:20:32,180 --> 00:20:32,380 [Sheena] Yeah 00:20:32,380 --> 00:20:36,870 [Bill] ... I think we all know the stories that the agencies are pretty strapped for people right now. 00:20:36,870 --> 00:20:36,920 [Sheena] Mm. 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:38,660 [Bill] It's really an important role, right? 00:20:38,660 --> 00:21:33,849 [Sheena] Yeah, absolutely. So I won't say we're backfilling our nonprofit organizations, as Bob Marshall Wilderness Foundation knows well when you were with it, Flathead Rivers Alliance and other organizations, we're not here to backfill for the government agencies. Um, we're here to help them with capacity. But we were never meant to replace federal workers. Um, so our organization, as other nonprofit organizations, are really here to help fill in the spots. Federal agencies, their hands are a little more tied as far as their interaction with the public. Our nonprofit organizations, we don't have as much red tape. So as long as we're all on the same messaging board, per se, with the agencies and what they want to roll out with how they management, that's a gift that we're able to give back to the public. How do we take that information that may be really confusing and regurgitate that in the nicest way [laughs]- 00:21:33,849 --> 00:21:34,030 [Anders] Yeah 00:21:34,030 --> 00:21:35,320 [Sheena] ... back to the public? 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:47,080 [Anders] Yeah. And is that different from what Flathead Rivers Alliance has had to do in the past? I mean, the Flathead Valley is growing so fast. There's just increasing re- recreation pressure, development change. 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:47,129 [Sheena] Mm-hmm. 00:21:47,129 --> 00:21:58,920 [Anders] I, I just wonder if... Y- your model's obviously changing, and I'm curious about how, and, and if there are things that you're watching closely right now that maybe really concern you about how you may have to change in the future. 00:21:58,920 --> 00:23:00,280 [Sheena] Yeah. It's really... On our river system, there's no cell service. You're not able to access the internet. You're not able to check anything really on your phone. So what we've really found is we need to target people before they get to the river, so know before you go. How are we doing that? And with the changing landscape, increase in users, how they're getting connected to the information with which they use to move in the space is, what are those platforms? And the attention span is really short these days, so how do we deliver that? So is it through really short videos? Is it through radio spots? We do all of these things. Is it, um, not brainwashing, but getting into schools and really teaching kids about the river system and how to recreate and move through it responsibly? So it's multilayered. So I would say it's the same as it's always been, but we have to be more on top of it and know the platforms and know that folks' attention span is much, much shorter than it used to be. 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:19,820 [Bill] Yeah, you mentioned the North Fork originating, uh, on the T- Tonaha Nation. The forks all flow through the historic grounds of the Qlispe, the Blackfeet. What is, uh, your view on how FRA works and thinks about that history of the landscape? 00:23:19,820 --> 00:24:01,620 [Sheena] Yeah, absolutely. We're beyond fortunate to work with the folks that we do, uh, with all of those First Nations tribes, um, whatever side border you're on. Um, they've always been a key player. They, they come to our meetings. They do partner floats with us. They're really integral even in our stewardship events as well. Um, so even though the Flathead Reservation or the Blackfeet Reservation or Tonaha, they're these little pockets. This is their traditional homelands, so they still very much have a say in it. Um, and so whenever we introduce the concept of the river system to the public or to students, we always start with the recognition of these folks 00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:11,440 [Sheena] are still here. Um, we just happen to be helping with the stewardship, but we are not leading it. We really have to hand it to them for the leadership of that. 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,360 [Bill] Well, you've always done an amazing job- 00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:13,370 [Sheena] [laughs] 00:24:13,370 --> 00:24:34,195 [Bill] ... of working with tribal nations, including your time with the, the Crown of the Continent Geotourism Council. Um, you know, we, we kind of detoured you for a minute. We sort of talked about the North Fork, and we talked about the, the Middle Fork. I... You know, when I first got involved-Uh, sort of at that origin point of the Flathead Rivers Alliance, I showed up as somebody who really wanted to make sure we also paid attention to the South Fork. 00:24:34,196 --> 00:24:34,636 [Sheena] Mm-hmm. 00:24:34,636 --> 00:24:37,436 [Bill] Um, and let's talk about the South Fork for a minute- 00:24:37,436 --> 00:24:37,446 [Sheena] Let's do it 00:24:37,446 --> 00:24:42,956 [Bill] ... for those who don't live here. That's, that's an even different experience than the Middle Fork. Both of them originate in the Bob, but- 00:24:42,956 --> 00:24:42,986 [Sheena] Mm-hmm 00:24:42,986 --> 00:24:45,966 [Bill] ... getting to the South Fork takes a little more effort. 00:24:45,966 --> 00:25:37,736 [Sheena] It absolutely does, yeah. Um, you're not gonna be taking up as much equipment as you want. You really have to do a lot of pre-planning, packing, and hiking in your gear. Um, I'm gonna jump back to w- what you had talked about, I think, about management rolling out. Flathead Rivers Alliance is really invested in having consistent human waste management, and also campsite management with fires. And so that's something that's always been a little different between the south, the Upper South and the Middle Fork, and then the other forks. So that's something we're looking forward to with the new river management plan, is it's the same across the board, because it's been very confusing to user groups, and we're seeing impacts on the landscape, degradation, human waste, um, just being more so than it was before, 'cause folks don't know. 00:25:37,736 --> 00:25:53,146 [Bill] Yeah, I mean, uh, people here in the Flathead think a lot about how much use of the Middle Fork has changed with, with the rapid growth of, like, commercial outfitting, the rafting companies. But the evolution of technology with particularly packrafts have made the South Fork more accessible. 00:25:53,146 --> 00:25:53,176 [Sheena] Mm-hmm. 00:25:53,176 --> 00:26:00,676 [Bill] And I've certain been able to float the South Fork, you know, with river rangers with the Forest Service, and seeing the impacts of campsites that are sprawling- 00:26:00,676 --> 00:26:01,236 [Sheena] Mm 00:26:01,236 --> 00:26:12,336 [Bill] ... people that aren't, you know, honoring that 200-foot limit from water for, for solid human waste. Um, I think we, we were talking about just coming down the river, uh, with Fisher Gan Jimmy, like, 00:26:13,516 --> 00:26:17,816 [Bill] he actually had the number of, like, human deposits, we'll say- 00:26:17,816 --> 00:26:17,826 [Sheena] Yeah 00:26:17,826 --> 00:26:25,656 [Bill] ... that were within 20 feet of the fire ring. And I'm like, "Why in the world?" And he's like, "I think it's because we put the fear of God in them about grizzly bears." 00:26:25,656 --> 00:26:25,666 [Sheena] Yeah. 00:26:25,666 --> 00:26:35,276 [Bill] "They don't wanna, they don't wanna get outside that safety light circle of that, of that campfire at night." But I think it's, it's, it's an interesting river i- in how, 00:26:36,416 --> 00:26:47,536 [Bill] you know, you can help the public with that river because the touch point is pretty remote. Like, to put up... So folks, if you wanna put on the South Fork, either at the confluence of Youngs and Danaher o- or where Gordon Creek comes in, 00:26:48,856 --> 00:26:51,396 [Bill] you have hiked 30-ish miles- 00:26:51,396 --> 00:26:51,496 [Sheena] Mm-hmm 00:26:51,496 --> 00:26:53,676 [Bill] ... just to get to where you can get on the river. 00:26:53,676 --> 00:26:54,096 [Sheena] Yeah. 00:26:54,096 --> 00:26:58,896 [Bill] And I think the fact that you're gonna have a, you're gonna have a river ranger down there this year, right? 00:26:58,896 --> 00:27:05,256 [Sheena] Yeah, dream job. Um, our two paid staff, myself and Jeffrey, were ready to quit our paying jobs to become an intern. 00:27:05,256 --> 00:27:05,905 [Bill] [laughs] 00:27:05,905 --> 00:27:45,496 [Sheena] Um, Abby will definitely have a dream job. Um, we're very fortunate. Flathead Valley Trout Unlimited, the Forest Service, Whitefish Community Foundation, and some other folks have really helped us be able to cover that position. Um, Bob Marshall Wilderness Foundation is helping us with training as well. So this intern will be able to be on the landscape. She'll be our eyes and ears. Um, she will help collect data, but she'll also be helping with capacity for fisheries, so all of the ologists doing the studies on the landscape as well. And she'll be able to float. She has a packraft. She's headed back there, and she's just gonna have a really dreamy summer. [laughs] 00:27:45,496 --> 00:27:49,506 [Bill] What a... I never was able to find those jobs when I was in my young 20s. 00:27:49,506 --> 00:27:49,556 [Sheena] [laughs] 00:27:49,556 --> 00:27:55,496 [Bill] I don't know why. Uh, I'm gonna zoom out and zoom back in. Let's talk about 50 years- 00:27:55,496 --> 00:27:55,616 [Sheena] Yes 00:27:55,616 --> 00:28:03,345 [Bill] ... since the designation of the three forks of the Flathead, but also the critical role that the Flathead system, and specifically the Middle Fork played- 00:28:03,345 --> 00:28:03,345 [Sheena] Mm-hmm 00:28:03,345 --> 00:28:14,816 [Bill] ... in the actual origin of the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act. And can you talk about that, and the Craighead brothers, and maybe help people understand that history, that this was kind of the birthplace of the idea of a wild and scenic river, right? 00:28:14,876 --> 00:30:37,816 [Sheena] Absolutely. It gets a little confusing when I throw out some dates, but absolutely. Um, so the three forks of the Flathead, North, South, Middle Fork, all of them were instrumental in this push, this movement to protect wild rivers, free-flowing rivers, protect their outstanding remarkable values. In the 1950s, there was a big move, industrialization, let's dam all these rivers, um, for hydroelectric or water storage, whatever it may be. Hungry Horse Dam went in the 1950s, that we completely lost a beautiful section of the South Fork of the river that we'll never get back, um, a, a nice, beautiful, wild, um, deep channel, um, and canyon. And so that has... I don't know if we'll dive into it now. I can tell stories about it later. Um, that has actually become a really great piece of our conservation story, but it spearheaded it... The Craighead brothers caught wind of a Spruce Park Dam going in on the Middle Fork, and there were gonna be proposed dams on the North Fork as well. But the Spruce Park Dam would've completely dewatered the Middle Fork. It would've diverted water from Spruce Park through a tunnel, through the mountains, and dropped it into Hungry Horse Reservoir. So the whitewater section, that is the livelihood, and also really great time for locals as well, livelihood for businesses, that whitewater section would've never existed, or it wouldn't exist anymore had that dam gone in. So it took the Craighead brothers floating at that time. That wasn't something that was done as frequently, um, so conservation-minded. And then them bringing together bipartisan representatives, community members, agencies, and saying, "Hey, we should protect this. We really should." And so that spearheaded the movement towards a National Wild and Scenic River Act in 1968, which created a National Wild and Scenic River System in 1968. And even though the three forks were the inspiration behind that act and that movement, um, they said, "Wait, wait. We need you to study the three forks for 10 years to see if it would qualify as a National Wild and Scenic River."And then we'll get back to you and let you know if it can actually qualify for the system with which it created. So 1976 is when our river system was designated. 00:30:39,276 --> 00:30:56,836 [Bill] So many people that listen to our podcast, you know, love public lands, and I, I would bet a fair percentage of them, like, know the famous story of Hetch Hetchy and what that fight for John Muir was and that fight for national parks. But not enough know about the Craighead brothers- 00:30:56,836 --> 00:30:57,156 [Sheena] Mm-hmm 00:30:57,156 --> 00:31:06,116 [Bill] ... and the role that the Middle Fork played in this idea of wild and free-flowing rivers. I mean, it's just hard not to think about sitting here looking at... We are looking at white water- 00:31:06,116 --> 00:31:06,126 [Sheena] [laughs] 00:31:06,126 --> 00:31:09,736 [Bill] ... on the wild mile of the Swan River that's only possible because there's a dam about a mile- 00:31:09,736 --> 00:31:09,916 [Sheena] Yeah 00:31:09,916 --> 00:31:11,536 [Bill] ... upstream, and they can release it now. 00:31:11,536 --> 00:31:12,416 [Sheena] [laughs] But it's a great backdrop. 00:31:12,416 --> 00:31:24,476 [Bill] Yeah, it is a beautiful backdrop for the moment. But yeah, I think, I think I, I still need to do even more of my own research on the Craighead brothers and just that. Spruce Park is a spectacular place, and to imagine that as an industrial site- 00:31:24,476 --> 00:31:24,516 [Sheena] Yeah 00:31:24,516 --> 00:31:26,816 [Bill] ... of a dam is devastating. 00:31:26,816 --> 00:31:27,676 [Sheena] Absolutely. 00:31:27,676 --> 00:31:36,416 [Anders] And that story directly impacted me. The river production story may have started here, but the... Sheena, you may be from Texas, but I'm from Arkansas. 00:31:36,416 --> 00:31:36,856 [Sheena] Love it. 00:31:36,856 --> 00:31:37,556 [Anders] Even better. 00:31:37,556 --> 00:31:37,866 [Sheena] Yeah. [laughs] 00:31:37,866 --> 00:31:54,206 [Anders] And the, the first, uh, uh, America's first national river is the Buffalo National River in Arkansas, and it's a place I grew up recreating and learning about wild lands and waters. And so I'm, I'm really grateful to the, to the Craighead brothers as well, and for the work you're continuing to do to protect the landscape. So thank you. 00:31:54,206 --> 00:31:54,316 [Sheena] Yeah. 00:31:54,316 --> 00:32:01,396 [Anders] Um, this brings up a good question, uh, hopefully like a, a softball for you. What are y'all doing to celebrate the 50th anniversary? 00:32:01,396 --> 00:32:05,096 [Sheena] We are throwing a big party July 10th. Come on down to- 00:32:05,096 --> 00:32:05,156 [Anders] Woo-hoo 00:32:05,156 --> 00:32:07,556 [Sheena] ... Columbia Falls, Montana. [laughs] 00:32:07,556 --> 00:32:08,216 [Anders] Love it. 00:32:08,216 --> 00:32:43,136 [Sheena] Um, Gateway to Glacier, I think, is what we're calling it. We have many slogans. Um, yeah, so we're bringing together community members, anyone that cares about the river system. We'll have about 15 interactive organization booths. We'll have guest speakers from the creation of the National Wild and Scenic River Act and system. Um, we're working on some Craighead brother, um, connections there. But we have, um, the gentleman that originally mapped the river system for the designation, he'll be there as well. We have live music, boot juice. Come dance the night away. Um, we- 00:32:43,136 --> 00:32:44,756 [Anders] And of course, glitter. 00:32:44,756 --> 00:32:49,456 [Sheena] Absolutely. We will definitely have glitter, for sure. It's biodegradable, I must say. 00:32:49,456 --> 00:32:49,556 [Anders] [laughs] 00:32:49,556 --> 00:32:58,516 [Sheena] But yeah. Uh, but yeah, it should be a really great time. We only get to celebrate 50 years so often, so this is a great way to bring everyone together. 00:32:59,636 --> 00:33:00,856 [Bill] As, as someone else who 00:33:02,036 --> 00:33:16,116 [Bill] sort of had to be the first executive director of a conservation nonprofit, I cannot tell you how fortunate I feel, as a former board member of the Flathead Rivers Alliance, as somebody who was there at the origin, that we were to find you. You are a force of nature. 00:33:16,116 --> 00:33:16,996 [Sheena] Oh, thank you. 00:33:16,996 --> 00:33:34,256 [Bill] And I just wanna thank you for all that you do for not just the three forks of the Flathead, but for conservation in the valley. You are such a, a bright beam of energy that, uh, you bring so much to the community, and I just... I can't, I can't imagine not having FRA, 00:33:35,316 --> 00:33:41,956 [Bill] and I don't think we would've had it without your leadership over the last, you know, five years, as you said. And I just really thank you for all the work you've put into it. 00:33:41,956 --> 00:33:44,596 [Anders] Sheena, he has n- never said anything like that about me. 00:33:44,596 --> 00:33:44,796 [Sheena] [laughs] 00:33:44,796 --> 00:33:45,386 [Anders] It's amazing. 00:33:45,386 --> 00:33:46,376 [Sheena] He just wants a snickerdoodle cookie. 00:33:47,456 --> 00:33:48,006 [Sheena] [laughs] 00:33:48,006 --> 00:33:48,006 [Anders] [laughs] 00:33:48,006 --> 00:33:48,125 [Bill] [laughs] 00:33:48,125 --> 00:33:50,416 [Sheena] No, thank you so much, Bill. That means a lot to me. 00:33:50,416 --> 00:33:50,896 [Bill] Well- 00:33:50,896 --> 00:33:51,076 [Sheena] Yeah 00:33:51,076 --> 00:34:07,326 [Bill] ... and, and, uh, you all, um, definitely should, should look at ways to support the Flathead Rivers Alliance. As Sheena said, show up for the, for the big shindig, the Gateway to Glacier shindig, to celebrate 50 years of the three forks of the Flathead. Thank you for joining us. It's just been great having you here on the stage at, at Lake Baked. 00:34:07,326 --> 00:34:08,816 [Sheena] Thank you for having me. Thank you, Anders. 00:34:08,816 --> 00:34:09,836 [Anders] It's been so good. 00:34:09,836 --> 00:34:09,986 [Sheena] Thank you, Bill. 00:34:09,986 --> 00:34:11,315 [Anders] Thank you so much, Sheena. 00:34:11,316 --> 00:35:00,396 [Bill] Coming up on the Wild Idea Podcast, our summer live events will continue. We will bring you more stories of land stewardship, and we'll provide more authors, scientists, conservationists doing amazing work around the country. We love that each of you are engaging on this ride with us, and we hope that you will invite others to the party through our socials and on the podcast player of choice for you. You can stay on top of all we have going on by signing up for our newsletter at thewildidea.com, which is also where you can find the Buy Me a Coffee, or as I think we're saying now, Buy Me a Strong Drink, which is a way which you can support our work. So huge thanks to the team here at Lake Baked, to Sheena, uh, and everybody at the Flathead Rivers Alliance. And, uh, we look forward to all of us getting out there, and when we all do, we will see all of you on Down the Trail. 00:35:00,396 --> 00:35:33,936 [Speaker 4] The Wild Idea is a production of Wild Idea Media and hosted by Bill Hodge and Anders Reynolds. Production and editing by Bryn Russell at PodLab. Digital support by Holly Wilkoszewski at Daypack Digital. Our theme music, Spring Hill Jack, is from Railroad Earth and was composed by John Keahan. Our executive producer and ringleader is Laura Hodge. You can find The Wild Idea wherever you listen to or download your favorite podcast. If you have a minute, please take a minute to give us a rating, and if you really like us, we hope you'll subscribe. Learn more about us at thewildidea.com.