1 00:00:00,049 --> 00:00:03,329 Rob Duthie: Instead of running away from challenges every day, I actually 2 00:00:03,329 --> 00:00:08,024 run towards them because within that challenge is actually very, very likely 3 00:00:08,684 --> 00:00:12,574 I'm going to find a lot of engagement and happiness and fulfillment. 4 00:00:12,886 --> 00:00:16,646 if you feeling that the season is finished, then get up and move. 5 00:00:17,306 --> 00:00:22,206 Don't stay in that and stagnate because there's so much opportunity out there 6 00:00:22,786 --> 00:00:27,346 In terms of language, relentless change, continuous change, is 7 00:00:27,346 --> 00:00:30,326 something that you become used to when you're working in this industry. 8 00:00:30,376 --> 00:00:33,806 Arguably, if you step out of the industry, it's the very thing you end up missing 9 00:00:34,049 --> 00:00:37,319 When you start to break it down, you begin to realize How did I ever 10 00:00:37,349 --> 00:00:41,209 get anything done without really planning the day ahead of me? 11 00:00:41,596 --> 00:00:43,406 No wonder you get home and you're tired 12 00:00:43,694 --> 00:00:48,554 Welcome to the I gaming leader the podcast where we uncover the human side of some 13 00:00:48,554 --> 00:00:50,204 of the most well-respected leaders. 14 00:00:50,534 --> 00:00:51,644 In the industry. 15 00:00:51,914 --> 00:00:53,294 I'm your host, Leo Jenkins. 16 00:00:53,354 --> 00:00:55,494 And today I'm joined by Rob Duthie. 17 00:00:55,514 --> 00:00:58,184 A true industry veteran. 18 00:00:58,481 --> 00:01:02,261 been in the industry For over 20 years, starting out at Victor 19 00:01:02,361 --> 00:01:04,481 Chandler, nowadays BV group. 20 00:01:04,701 --> 00:01:08,371 Working out Stan James nowadays, kindred and ending up as the 21 00:01:08,371 --> 00:01:10,831 managing director at Entain. 22 00:01:11,041 --> 00:01:15,061 He will share the lessons that he's learned throughout that 20 year career, 23 00:01:15,361 --> 00:01:19,621 the challenges that he's faced, and also leadership lessons that will help 24 00:01:19,621 --> 00:01:25,411 you and I uncover what is required to sustain high performance in this 25 00:01:25,411 --> 00:01:27,901 high pressure, fast paced industry. 26 00:01:28,231 --> 00:01:30,361 So with that said, let's dive in. 27 00:01:30,774 --> 00:01:33,492 Leo: Hey Rob, welcome to the iGaming Leader podcast. 28 00:01:33,512 --> 00:01:35,102 Really great to have you here. 29 00:01:35,422 --> 00:01:37,722 I wanted to start with kind of kicking off. 30 00:01:37,742 --> 00:01:43,062 You've been in the industry for 20 years, I believe, when I looked at your LinkedIn. 31 00:01:43,072 --> 00:01:47,712 Very long term and passionate person in the industry. 32 00:01:48,357 --> 00:01:52,997 You know, starting back in 2003, I'm curious to hear what initially 33 00:01:53,007 --> 00:01:55,097 drew you into the industry. 34 00:01:55,537 --> 00:01:59,157 And, and how's your perspective perhaps changed as you, as you've gone 35 00:01:59,167 --> 00:02:01,807 through those two decades in gaming? 36 00:02:02,115 --> 00:02:02,245 Rob Duthie: Yeah. 37 00:02:02,245 --> 00:02:03,995 Look, it's been a fascinating journey for me. 38 00:02:04,145 --> 00:02:07,315 I had no intention of moving into gaming at all. 39 00:02:07,715 --> 00:02:12,395 In fact, moving down to southern Spain was a desire, to get away from UK weather. 40 00:02:12,855 --> 00:02:17,315 It was just an opportunity where I was very fortunate to go and take on 41 00:02:17,315 --> 00:02:21,625 a maternity cover role with, Victor Chandler, knew nothing about the 42 00:02:21,625 --> 00:02:26,405 industry at all and ended up looking after payrolls for the UK and Gibraltar. 43 00:02:26,425 --> 00:02:26,675 So. 44 00:02:27,245 --> 00:02:31,445 You know, it's, there was no intention of joining the industry, but, 20 years 45 00:02:31,445 --> 00:02:36,085 has gone by and it's been a fascinating journey from, you know, back in 2000s, 46 00:02:36,655 --> 00:02:41,395 early 2000s, where everything was on the telephone and it was all sports betting. 47 00:02:41,855 --> 00:02:45,535 We had a single person in the corner looking at something called an 48 00:02:45,585 --> 00:02:47,915 internet casino or casino online. 49 00:02:48,365 --> 00:02:51,185 Now there isn't any telephony or very little of it. 50 00:02:51,545 --> 00:02:53,555 And everything is pretty much digital for us. 51 00:02:53,565 --> 00:02:57,325 So what an exciting journey it has been over the last 20 years. 52 00:02:57,385 --> 00:02:58,425 Lots of variety. 53 00:02:58,946 --> 00:02:59,486 Leo: Yeah, funny. 54 00:02:59,486 --> 00:03:02,206 I was thinking about it yesterday as well, how you used to have the mobile 55 00:03:02,206 --> 00:03:04,226 department, it just doesn't exist anymore. 56 00:03:04,367 --> 00:03:07,467 And on that same thoughts, Rob, you, you must have seen so many 57 00:03:07,487 --> 00:03:11,397 consolidations, not just, you know, within business that you're in now, 58 00:03:11,397 --> 00:03:13,117 but consolidations in general, right? 59 00:03:13,117 --> 00:03:18,267 How teams merge and expand and change over time, what are some of the, some 60 00:03:18,267 --> 00:03:21,977 of the bigger, most impactful changes that you've witnessed or been part of? 61 00:03:22,274 --> 00:03:26,157 Rob Duthie: Look, I think the journey for me has been fascinating 62 00:03:26,157 --> 00:03:30,047 because I've been very fortunate to move between different operators, 63 00:03:30,047 --> 00:03:34,377 which gives you quite a different perspective on how these businesses run. 64 00:03:34,847 --> 00:03:38,257 The tenure that I've had has worked for operators. 65 00:03:38,447 --> 00:03:40,717 I've worked in payment specific areas. 66 00:03:41,082 --> 00:03:44,862 Understanding the whole infrastructure around how we deal with payments from the 67 00:03:44,862 --> 00:03:47,992 acquirer point of view and the routing point of view for different industries, 68 00:03:48,002 --> 00:03:50,282 whether it's Forex or binary or gaming. 69 00:03:51,262 --> 00:03:54,225 So what I find fascinating about this industry is that. 70 00:03:54,715 --> 00:03:57,705 There is so much variety sitting within this business. 71 00:03:57,705 --> 00:04:01,175 In fact, when we talk about progression, individual progression, 72 00:04:01,705 --> 00:04:04,525 they typically think about this industry as just taking a bet. 73 00:04:04,975 --> 00:04:07,925 But actually, if you dig into it, it's about marketing. 74 00:04:08,115 --> 00:04:08,955 It's about legal. 75 00:04:08,995 --> 00:04:10,465 It's about compliance. 76 00:04:10,615 --> 00:04:11,805 It's about acquisition. 77 00:04:11,815 --> 00:04:14,095 There's so much variety within the industry. 78 00:04:14,395 --> 00:04:17,985 I've been very fortunate to be a part of a lot of that, which 79 00:04:17,985 --> 00:04:19,515 has helped me grow as a person. 80 00:04:20,630 --> 00:04:21,850 over the last 20 years. 81 00:04:22,100 --> 00:04:26,140 So, you know, that coupled with the fact that there is such a 82 00:04:26,190 --> 00:04:28,310 fast paced moving environment. 83 00:04:28,700 --> 00:04:33,260 In terms of language, relentless change, continuous change, is 84 00:04:33,260 --> 00:04:36,240 something that you become used to when you're working in this industry. 85 00:04:36,290 --> 00:04:39,720 Arguably, if you step out of the industry, it's the very thing you end up missing. 86 00:04:40,850 --> 00:04:42,760 It's just the pace at which you move. 87 00:04:43,285 --> 00:04:45,665 there's very few other industries that match that. 88 00:04:45,855 --> 00:04:49,585 that can be, quite a motivational piece, quite an energizing 89 00:04:49,615 --> 00:04:50,775 piece of the work that I do. 90 00:04:51,535 --> 00:04:51,885 Leo: I love that. 91 00:04:51,885 --> 00:04:56,215 It's such a fast paced industry and sometimes that brings big challenges with 92 00:04:56,215 --> 00:05:00,525 it as well, where we want to look at the long term, but we have to look at the 93 00:05:00,525 --> 00:05:04,235 short term to deliver results, what are some of the biggest challenges that you've 94 00:05:04,265 --> 00:05:08,665 personally faced in your professional career when it comes to this, this real 95 00:05:08,665 --> 00:05:10,775 fast pace that this industry is all about? 96 00:05:11,175 --> 00:05:14,885 Rob Duthie: some of the points for me is that you have to embrace the change. 97 00:05:15,085 --> 00:05:19,385 you've got to be in a position where if you feel you want to fit into a box 98 00:05:19,455 --> 00:05:22,995 and that's what you want to do for the rest of your days, then you're going 99 00:05:22,995 --> 00:05:27,895 to struggle because you will come up against having to reinvent what it is 100 00:05:27,915 --> 00:05:32,065 that you do because in a year or two years time or five years time, it's very 101 00:05:32,065 --> 00:05:33,925 likely That it will not be the same. 102 00:05:34,145 --> 00:05:35,915 The operation won't be the same. 103 00:05:35,955 --> 00:05:38,885 The types of positions and jobs that we have won't be the same. 104 00:05:39,075 --> 00:05:44,635 in terms of my own journey, there's some key learnings around, finding happiness 105 00:05:44,635 --> 00:05:48,705 and engagement in the challenge, in the change of everything that we do every day. 106 00:05:49,255 --> 00:05:53,905 by embracing that, I actually have lots of reasons to get up in the morning. 107 00:05:54,390 --> 00:05:58,090 to come to work because there is so much variety and the minute you 108 00:05:58,090 --> 00:06:02,000 stick your hand up and say, yes, you start learning and you start growing. 109 00:06:02,410 --> 00:06:05,800 and I don't think I'll ever stop, learning or growing in this career 110 00:06:05,860 --> 00:06:07,670 because it's always changing for me. 111 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:08,760 Leo: yeah, it's true. 112 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:10,370 And I think that's true for most people. 113 00:06:10,870 --> 00:06:14,390 If you, think back to, I mean, you've been at Victor Chanda, 114 00:06:14,460 --> 00:06:16,850 been at Hills, now at Entain. 115 00:06:17,700 --> 00:06:21,310 What were some of the most pivotal moments when it comes to maybe your, 116 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,950 how you approach leadership in general, how you manage your teams, how you 117 00:06:25,980 --> 00:06:28,650 speak to your people, what have been some of The biggest moments for you 118 00:06:28,650 --> 00:06:33,190 that really changed the way you see leadership or how you lead your teams 119 00:06:33,905 --> 00:06:34,075 Rob Duthie: Yeah. 120 00:06:34,075 --> 00:06:37,975 So because we're in this continuous change, at the root of 121 00:06:37,975 --> 00:06:39,555 everything we do are the people. 122 00:06:39,935 --> 00:06:43,875 that's quite a key point because all of us, get carried away by the target, 123 00:06:44,215 --> 00:06:47,965 by what do we have to do around the number and how much we have to deliver. 124 00:06:48,485 --> 00:06:52,305 But there's a very real lesson in understanding the difference 125 00:06:52,305 --> 00:06:53,895 between how we perform. 126 00:06:53,935 --> 00:06:58,375 So how we turn up every day and what we do versus the targets that we are 127 00:06:58,375 --> 00:06:59,985 set and we have to deliver against. 128 00:07:00,425 --> 00:07:03,415 we've got to ask those questions about fine, we hit target. 129 00:07:03,955 --> 00:07:04,255 Okay. 130 00:07:04,825 --> 00:07:08,860 We did very well in terms of the number, but how did we perform and 131 00:07:08,860 --> 00:07:10,770 turn up every day to hit that target? 132 00:07:11,390 --> 00:07:14,760 And we've got to make a decision as individuals to say yes, in terms 133 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,550 of our behavior, in terms of how we look after individuals and teams 134 00:07:18,550 --> 00:07:22,450 and people, because we all want to have that opportunity to develop. 135 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,230 we all want to have the opportunity to grow and to learn. 136 00:07:25,740 --> 00:07:29,370 but the key is how do we perform every day as people? 137 00:07:29,780 --> 00:07:32,390 That means that we actually end up hitting the target. 138 00:07:32,787 --> 00:07:36,287 there might be occasions when you don't hit the target, okay, but 139 00:07:36,357 --> 00:07:39,287 you're comfortable that in terms of behavior and how we turned up 140 00:07:39,687 --> 00:07:41,687 and what we did was acceptable. 141 00:07:42,497 --> 00:07:42,747 Leo: yeah, 142 00:07:42,807 --> 00:07:46,597 Rob Duthie: All right, versus hitting the target at any cost and not looking 143 00:07:46,667 --> 00:07:50,737 after individuals all the way that we run the business, especially 144 00:07:50,737 --> 00:07:53,537 when you're dealing with vulnerable customers, You know, people that are 145 00:07:53,537 --> 00:07:57,247 struggling in the industry, we have to take accountability for that. 146 00:07:57,276 --> 00:08:01,617 So, you know, what I love about, the last two 10 years that I've had at Hills 147 00:08:01,677 --> 00:08:06,857 and in Tain is that at William Hill 2016, that's really when we had the 148 00:08:06,857 --> 00:08:12,090 start of regulation and started taking it seriously in terms of affordability. 149 00:08:12,930 --> 00:08:15,340 knowing your customer source of funds and source of wealth. 150 00:08:15,820 --> 00:08:17,660 that's when we started to take it seriously. 151 00:08:18,150 --> 00:08:22,360 the one consistent area for all operators, especially in the UK 152 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,280 market, is that impacts value. 153 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:29,470 customer value has been hit across every operator in the UK because of 154 00:08:29,860 --> 00:08:31,740 regulation and how we run our business. 155 00:08:31,950 --> 00:08:36,590 And so at Hills, four years that I had at William Hill, was all about the start of. 156 00:08:37,135 --> 00:08:37,835 that piece. 157 00:08:38,035 --> 00:08:41,875 where I'm super fortunate to be right now is that we are at Intane. 158 00:08:42,385 --> 00:08:44,405 I came and joined Intane at 2020. 159 00:08:44,805 --> 00:08:47,755 Again, that was the start of that journey for Intane. 160 00:08:48,385 --> 00:08:52,475 you would see that reflected in the share price and the way the business is moving 161 00:08:52,475 --> 00:08:57,355 around, consolidating, restructuring to where we are now coming out the 162 00:08:57,355 --> 00:08:59,655 other side at a very exciting time. 163 00:08:59,655 --> 00:08:59,715 Thank you. 164 00:09:00,510 --> 00:09:05,960 in fact, we talk internally that these will be the most exciting times that we 165 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:10,660 will see in the next 24 months, just in terms of how we grow as a business and 166 00:09:10,660 --> 00:09:12,490 how we take share of wallet in the UK. 167 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,184 Leo: I love how you've turned the business around Just that 168 00:09:15,184 --> 00:09:17,144 recent financial update is insane. 169 00:09:17,164 --> 00:09:20,774 I've, I was fortunate enough to see some of that, a little bit closer 170 00:09:20,774 --> 00:09:22,214 by, working together with you guys. 171 00:09:22,264 --> 00:09:23,904 how has that affected the team, Rob? 172 00:09:23,914 --> 00:09:28,864 after such a tough time turning that around into a quarter where, you perform 173 00:09:28,864 --> 00:09:32,234 the way that you've just done specifically in the UK, but internationally as well. 174 00:09:32,574 --> 00:09:33,934 How's that affected everybody? 175 00:09:33,979 --> 00:09:37,439 Rob Duthie: you know, since 2020, we've had continuous decrease 176 00:09:37,439 --> 00:09:39,839 in value and player value. 177 00:09:39,839 --> 00:09:43,269 And the challenge on individuals is that when you try and hit a target 178 00:09:43,279 --> 00:09:48,059 that is very difficult to hit, that starts eroding away in terms of 179 00:09:48,059 --> 00:09:49,919 your engagement and your motivation. 180 00:09:50,899 --> 00:09:55,199 You'll laugh at this, but the challenge we have today is not around the success. 181 00:09:55,609 --> 00:09:57,139 So we are performing. 182 00:09:57,514 --> 00:10:02,184 Well, and we will continue to perform well, but there is a lot of fatigue. 183 00:10:02,294 --> 00:10:05,304 a lot of change fatigue, that everybody is carrying. 184 00:10:05,764 --> 00:10:10,844 how we get people to jump over that divide, to say, look, yes, we're doing 185 00:10:10,844 --> 00:10:14,554 well as a business, but actually now we need to invest heavily in our people 186 00:10:14,554 --> 00:10:18,284 that are, you know, that are tired, yea they're tired of having to go 187 00:10:18,284 --> 00:10:21,874 through the restructures and the changes over the last couple of years, along 188 00:10:21,874 --> 00:10:24,159 with the challenges of performance. 189 00:10:24,599 --> 00:10:26,029 it's how you change that mindset. 190 00:10:26,669 --> 00:10:28,879 and that's something we're really focusing on now. 191 00:10:28,879 --> 00:10:30,469 Is that we need to have fun, yeah? 192 00:10:30,469 --> 00:10:31,529 People need to have fun. 193 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,389 They come to work to have fun, and we get paid, and that's fantastic. 194 00:10:34,769 --> 00:10:36,369 but we really need to enjoy the journey. 195 00:10:36,529 --> 00:10:39,985 So, we are focusing on Getting back to the basics, yeah? 196 00:10:40,055 --> 00:10:43,025 How do you deal with those brilliant basics in terms of development and 197 00:10:43,025 --> 00:10:44,555 progression and succession planning? 198 00:10:45,025 --> 00:10:46,035 because people want to move on. 199 00:10:46,995 --> 00:10:51,335 that's an exciting place for us to be, because the focus now is on the people. 200 00:10:51,835 --> 00:10:55,025 the focus is on the performance piece, because we know that the 201 00:10:55,235 --> 00:10:58,135 targets are realistic, and we know, we're going to achieve the 202 00:10:58,135 --> 00:10:59,715 results that we need to achieve. 203 00:11:00,690 --> 00:11:01,620 Leo: Yeah, I love it. 204 00:11:01,690 --> 00:11:02,850 I love how it's turned around. 205 00:11:03,090 --> 00:11:04,260 It's really amazing. 206 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,550 I can see that makes a lot of sense as well. 207 00:11:06,560 --> 00:11:10,460 When you've gone through so many changes, that fatigue starts trickling in. 208 00:11:10,490 --> 00:11:11,750 how do you keep people engaged? 209 00:11:11,770 --> 00:11:14,830 what's your approach to making sure that your team feels engaged with 210 00:11:14,830 --> 00:11:19,310 business, with your, your strategic direction that you're setting with, still 211 00:11:19,310 --> 00:11:23,640 delivering , and making sure that they come to work and have fun, like you said. 212 00:11:23,829 --> 00:11:26,789 Rob Duthie: So for us, it's understanding very clearly what those 213 00:11:26,799 --> 00:11:28,859 objectives are for us as a business. 214 00:11:29,029 --> 00:11:30,319 We call them the big rocks. 215 00:11:30,569 --> 00:11:34,599 what are the big rocks that we want to deliver against in 2025? 216 00:11:35,029 --> 00:11:36,729 the story needs to be super simple. 217 00:11:37,419 --> 00:11:40,909 the last four years have been spent making things very complex. 218 00:11:41,529 --> 00:11:43,509 in the complexity, people lose sight. 219 00:11:44,239 --> 00:11:47,119 of where it is we're going and what it is we're trying to achieve. 220 00:11:47,639 --> 00:11:53,299 stripping that back to a very simple story that has very, very clear objectives. 221 00:11:53,599 --> 00:11:58,189 And then more importantly, what I, what I really love is how we as 222 00:11:58,189 --> 00:12:00,119 individuals take the skills that we have. 223 00:12:00,949 --> 00:12:01,239 Okay. 224 00:12:01,249 --> 00:12:04,189 So instead of us going to people and saying, here's the objective 225 00:12:04,649 --> 00:12:06,539 and I need you to do this. 226 00:12:06,579 --> 00:12:09,479 We talk to people about, what is your skill set and how do you 227 00:12:09,479 --> 00:12:13,129 tie into being accountable and responsible within the objective. 228 00:12:13,729 --> 00:12:16,129 And that encourages cross team work. 229 00:12:16,259 --> 00:12:20,649 people are now doing what they're really passionate about doing, which is why we 230 00:12:20,649 --> 00:12:24,753 want to come to work, as opposed to being told, you need to be doing X, Y, and Z. 231 00:12:25,514 --> 00:12:29,524 So the way that we work with our guys is we talk about the big rocks the big 232 00:12:29,554 --> 00:12:31,184 things we want to deliver for next year. 233 00:12:31,964 --> 00:12:35,524 if you go a little deeper on that and peel it back, what are the deliverables we need 234 00:12:35,524 --> 00:12:40,174 to achieve within our verticals, within our pillars to achieve those objectives? 235 00:12:40,714 --> 00:12:43,444 And then drill it down again into the individual, what 236 00:12:43,444 --> 00:12:44,704 are the skill sets you have? 237 00:12:45,214 --> 00:12:46,374 And how do those tie in? 238 00:12:46,374 --> 00:12:48,874 it could be across multiple functions or pillars. 239 00:12:49,514 --> 00:12:52,944 let's focus on what you're good at as opposed to all the weak areas. 240 00:12:53,444 --> 00:12:57,844 that then gets people engaged because they have a clear sense of where they're going. 241 00:12:58,214 --> 00:12:58,514 Okay. 242 00:12:58,844 --> 00:13:01,874 And they have a very clear idea of what got to do to get there. 243 00:13:02,424 --> 00:13:03,944 that's when the magic starts happening. 244 00:13:04,574 --> 00:13:06,504 and people feel like, they want to be here. 245 00:13:06,989 --> 00:13:08,049 Because they're adding value. 246 00:13:08,339 --> 00:13:10,329 Yeah, that's a very exciting place to be. 247 00:13:11,144 --> 00:13:11,364 Leo: Yeah. 248 00:13:11,514 --> 00:13:12,084 Love that, Rob. 249 00:13:12,814 --> 00:13:16,484 I'd like to ask about your personal experience with people you've looked 250 00:13:16,484 --> 00:13:18,014 up to, leaders you've looked up to. 251 00:13:18,024 --> 00:13:21,074 I've also worked for Victor, And I understand, it's very different 252 00:13:21,404 --> 00:13:24,404 than I'd imagine your current, situation at work where it's, 253 00:13:24,774 --> 00:13:26,654 , it's obviously a larger organization. 254 00:13:27,114 --> 00:13:30,794 What are some of the people that you've really looked up to, leaders that 255 00:13:30,804 --> 00:13:34,994 you've looked up to throughout that 20 year career of yours that, you know, 256 00:13:35,034 --> 00:13:39,934 the skills, the behaviors, the habits that you feel, were really kind of 257 00:13:39,964 --> 00:13:43,334 transformational for you when you looked at them and thought those are things I 258 00:13:43,334 --> 00:13:44,984 want as I'm progressing through my career? 259 00:13:45,110 --> 00:13:45,260 Rob Duthie: Yeah. 260 00:13:45,260 --> 00:13:49,500 So, so key points for me, in terms of leadership is, is you don't 261 00:13:49,500 --> 00:13:50,940 always have to have the answer. 262 00:13:52,020 --> 00:13:56,830 So when people are coming to, to talk to you about their journey, it's not 263 00:13:56,830 --> 00:13:58,410 about saying this is what you need to do. 264 00:13:59,540 --> 00:14:04,220 What I really respect with leaders is having the insight to, help you 265 00:14:04,220 --> 00:14:08,750 understand what the solution is and the ability to say something 266 00:14:08,780 --> 00:14:13,810 very simple, that gets you thinking about a problem in a different way. 267 00:14:14,300 --> 00:14:18,460 I've been fortunate to run across a couple of guys like that, where I might 268 00:14:18,460 --> 00:14:22,820 be overthinking something, and they would just pull me back in line to say, well, 269 00:14:22,870 --> 00:14:24,860 just if we think about it differently. 270 00:14:25,370 --> 00:14:26,840 What is the outcome going to be for you? 271 00:14:27,500 --> 00:14:28,370 and exploring that. 272 00:14:28,420 --> 00:14:30,350 it's a little bit like getting into coaching. 273 00:14:30,830 --> 00:14:34,770 we know that you turn up to a coaching session expecting, the person on the 274 00:14:34,770 --> 00:14:36,670 other side to have all the answers. 275 00:14:36,860 --> 00:14:39,030 And actually that's not their job. 276 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,320 Their job is to sit with you and help you understand what 277 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:43,430 is the right answer for you. 278 00:14:43,860 --> 00:14:45,900 And so it's the questioning techniques. 279 00:14:46,270 --> 00:14:49,400 and allowing you to explore those areas that, you wouldn't 280 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,000 necessarily do on your own. 281 00:14:51,250 --> 00:14:52,510 that for me is quite key. 282 00:14:53,030 --> 00:14:56,157 in terms of leadership as well, it's, you know, the most engaging leaders 283 00:14:56,157 --> 00:14:59,227 that I've worked with are people that bring everybody along the journey. 284 00:14:59,416 --> 00:15:03,121 that's quite a skill because, Storytelling, is really how 285 00:15:03,121 --> 00:15:04,541 it works within our business. 286 00:15:04,981 --> 00:15:08,677 Being able to tell a story that people believe, that could be through 287 00:15:08,677 --> 00:15:13,447 change as well, because, people have to understand that the reason why we 288 00:15:13,447 --> 00:15:16,827 are making the change is good for the business and that it has, there's some 289 00:15:16,827 --> 00:15:20,327 deep thought that's gone into it and it is going to benefit the business. 290 00:15:20,327 --> 00:15:23,877 When people realize that, regardless of the outcome, 291 00:15:23,927 --> 00:15:25,407 you understand the reason why. 292 00:15:25,857 --> 00:15:29,657 And as long as it's meaningful and it makes sense, then people engage with it. 293 00:15:30,077 --> 00:15:33,667 , and so you go through a lot of transformation, we just really 294 00:15:33,667 --> 00:15:35,497 want to cut costs at any cost. 295 00:15:36,047 --> 00:15:37,167 And there's blood on the floor. 296 00:15:37,507 --> 00:15:38,487 there's a lot of casualties. 297 00:15:38,929 --> 00:15:40,419 And people are confused. 298 00:15:40,659 --> 00:15:43,679 They don't understand why we've gone through this change 299 00:15:43,689 --> 00:15:44,889 and they take it personally. 300 00:15:45,006 --> 00:15:48,316 Whereas when you've thought it through and you've come with a very clear 301 00:15:48,472 --> 00:15:50,332 business plan, people can tuck into that. 302 00:15:50,902 --> 00:15:52,542 even if it's not good news for them. 303 00:15:52,782 --> 00:15:54,442 there's just a couple of examples. 304 00:15:54,502 --> 00:15:58,346 I always love to think about, I mean, Ressie, from the Springboks, 305 00:15:58,346 --> 00:15:59,476 who's the son of the new coach. 306 00:15:59,541 --> 00:16:06,391 Um, I've, I've spent, yeah, I've spent quite a bit of time watching how he's 307 00:16:06,391 --> 00:16:10,291 managed to take a team that wants to win. 308 00:16:10,991 --> 00:16:15,451 But actually there's a connection within each one of those players. 309 00:16:15,641 --> 00:16:17,201 means that they have to win. 310 00:16:17,621 --> 00:16:20,791 it's not about, we're just turning up, it's not about, we're just, we're going 311 00:16:20,791 --> 00:16:25,011 to play another game, but , it's the ability that Rassy has on his players. 312 00:16:25,451 --> 00:16:29,791 to actually connect, the winning piece with the motivation that they have. 313 00:16:29,791 --> 00:16:33,321 and that's a very exciting place to be because, that's where the 314 00:16:33,501 --> 00:16:36,171 magic happens and that's when you can achieve many things. 315 00:16:36,234 --> 00:16:36,944 Leo: I really love that. 316 00:16:36,994 --> 00:16:41,048 And I always loved the example of connecting sports with business 317 00:16:41,068 --> 00:16:44,348 because that high input, high performance environment that we see 318 00:16:44,348 --> 00:16:47,458 in sports is really something that we want to recreate in business, but 319 00:16:47,458 --> 00:16:48,968 it's often very difficult, right? 320 00:16:48,968 --> 00:16:52,573 Because there's not a South African shirt that you're playing for or 321 00:16:53,053 --> 00:16:54,583 it's a brand that you're playing for. 322 00:16:54,583 --> 00:16:55,803 And so it's obviously different. 323 00:16:55,843 --> 00:17:00,413 But I wanted to tie back to something you said earlier about giving people 324 00:17:00,413 --> 00:17:04,763 space and asking the right questions and creating that sense of, all 325 00:17:04,763 --> 00:17:07,913 right, let me, let me think about this problem differently, right? 326 00:17:08,533 --> 00:17:12,083 One of the things that I see a lot with people that are perhaps a little bit 327 00:17:12,093 --> 00:17:17,613 newer into leadership roles is that they feel they have to have all the answers 328 00:17:18,003 --> 00:17:22,993 and they have to be telling rather than asking, it's a typical, issue 329 00:17:22,993 --> 00:17:26,813 that many people struggle with because they feel if they tell them and they 330 00:17:26,823 --> 00:17:29,953 don't ask, it's an easier way to get to the result that they want. 331 00:17:29,953 --> 00:17:33,603 And you must've seen that a lot around you, right? 332 00:17:33,633 --> 00:17:38,143 Over the years these kinds of challenges, but newer leaders stepping up, how can 333 00:17:38,143 --> 00:17:42,483 you help people feel more confident with actually asking questions instead 334 00:17:42,483 --> 00:17:47,223 of telling, so being a macro manager rather than a micro manager, if you will. 335 00:17:47,223 --> 00:17:47,403 Rob Duthie: Yeah. 336 00:17:47,403 --> 00:17:52,453 So, my view in terms of, values is that humility is a super important value. 337 00:17:52,553 --> 00:17:57,193 a servant leader and somebody that is humble is very rare, very 338 00:17:57,213 --> 00:17:59,223 powerful when managing teams. 339 00:17:59,573 --> 00:18:03,093 I do believe it flows down when you're leading teams. 340 00:18:03,206 --> 00:18:07,456 And you come with an agenda, which is, I'm not going to tell you everything, 341 00:18:07,866 --> 00:18:09,876 but I encourage you to challenge. 342 00:18:10,039 --> 00:18:13,479 in a safe place where you know that, we're going to listen to you. 343 00:18:13,729 --> 00:18:16,239 Cause everybody has value and adds value. 344 00:18:16,539 --> 00:18:18,569 Then that does create a different environment. 345 00:18:19,019 --> 00:18:23,359 when I think about my guys, if I step out of line, I give them 346 00:18:23,389 --> 00:18:25,379 permission to call me out on this. 347 00:18:25,689 --> 00:18:30,579 it's quite a powerful place to be because, as a team, I know we are very successful. 348 00:18:30,919 --> 00:18:33,909 it's the fact that they are super inquisitive that means 349 00:18:33,909 --> 00:18:36,919 that we can actually leapfrog and make a lot of progress. 350 00:18:36,929 --> 00:18:39,509 So I encourage people to ask questions. 351 00:18:39,899 --> 00:18:40,909 Meaningful questions. 352 00:18:41,023 --> 00:18:45,463 They need to be thought through questions because you genuinely want 353 00:18:45,463 --> 00:18:48,173 to get a result or you genuinely don't understand something. 354 00:18:48,513 --> 00:18:51,563 my commitment is I want to make sure that you fully understand 355 00:18:51,563 --> 00:18:52,823 what it is we're trying to deliver. 356 00:18:53,193 --> 00:18:54,393 You've got to work as a team. 357 00:18:54,443 --> 00:18:57,923 a lot of young people come through and they get progression 358 00:18:57,973 --> 00:18:59,473 very, very early in the career. 359 00:18:59,653 --> 00:19:00,843 And that comes with the risk. 360 00:19:00,843 --> 00:19:00,863 Yeah. 361 00:19:01,039 --> 00:19:06,289 Because, they haven't quite, built on how they manage those conversations. 362 00:19:06,389 --> 00:19:10,779 They're not quite at the place where they know how to ask the questions. 363 00:19:10,890 --> 00:19:14,870 in a structured way, in fact, I'll give you a really nice example here is that 364 00:19:15,070 --> 00:19:19,820 when I joined both hills and attain, compliance always said Rob, there's no 365 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:21,870 way that because you guys are commercial. 366 00:19:21,870 --> 00:19:25,760 There's no way that you guys can get involved in compliance at all. 367 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:27,220 It's that you can't even attend the meetings. 368 00:19:27,347 --> 00:19:32,270 And it took three years at Hills and a couple of years at Mtain where we 369 00:19:32,290 --> 00:19:36,050 could all get around the table because we all understood that we had a 370 00:19:36,050 --> 00:19:40,680 single goal and I take it as seriously as anybody else in the business. 371 00:19:41,130 --> 00:19:44,400 So building that really strong relationship that says. 372 00:19:44,830 --> 00:19:48,530 I'm not going to push on something that is going to jar with you. 373 00:19:49,210 --> 00:19:52,484 We can all talk about the challenges that we're experiencing. 374 00:19:52,924 --> 00:19:55,284 and as a collective, we are so powerful. 375 00:19:55,754 --> 00:20:00,204 one of our guys had always said to me before is that if Intane, only 376 00:20:00,214 --> 00:20:04,374 knew what Intane knows, we have so much knowledge in the business, 377 00:20:04,424 --> 00:20:07,354 But not many people share it. 378 00:20:07,354 --> 00:20:11,384 it's quite a powerful piece because when you bring all that experience together, 379 00:20:12,024 --> 00:20:13,764 you're very powerful, in the market. 380 00:20:14,930 --> 00:20:18,470 Leo: asking the right questions is key because people are sat in 381 00:20:18,470 --> 00:20:22,430 their silos, not intentionally but are sat in their silos thinking. 382 00:20:22,905 --> 00:20:25,185 and struggling perhaps with, with communicating 383 00:20:25,845 --> 00:20:27,615 the exact things that other people need to know. 384 00:20:27,615 --> 00:20:32,645 So how, like in a large organization moving from, you know, Victor Chandler, 385 00:20:32,675 --> 00:20:35,365 Stan James, even, I'd imagine it was quite 386 00:20:35,725 --> 00:20:39,795 intimate as well to, to a far larger organization, which is now Vogue Hills, 387 00:20:40,085 --> 00:20:45,179 and, and what are the big differences you feel between being in a small organization 388 00:20:45,249 --> 00:20:49,199 and being in a large organization, and managing those complexities? 389 00:20:49,475 --> 00:20:49,475 Rob Duthie: Yeah. 390 00:20:49,475 --> 00:20:52,861 So there's a number of points that Entain , has a lot of politics 391 00:20:53,361 --> 00:20:54,651 involved in this business. 392 00:20:54,711 --> 00:20:57,281 So you spend a lot of time managing up. 393 00:20:57,331 --> 00:21:01,691 that's far different to a private entity like Chandler's was back in the day 394 00:21:01,741 --> 00:21:05,721 or Stan's back in the day, where you could just make a decision and move on, 395 00:21:06,011 --> 00:21:09,171 Now you can't just make a decision because you've got to go through committees and 396 00:21:09,221 --> 00:21:14,231 get approval which means that storytelling is very important, that it's clear, and 397 00:21:14,231 --> 00:21:15,811 simple and that people understand it. 398 00:21:15,897 --> 00:21:19,667 I was away a couple of weeks back, on a high performance, leadership, meeting with 399 00:21:19,667 --> 00:21:24,697 some of our guys and, two days in, I went to the guy that was leading the session 400 00:21:24,707 --> 00:21:29,090 and, said to him, listen, Keith, in terms of how I show up in the meeting, don't be 401 00:21:29,110 --> 00:21:34,020 put off if you see me there in the corner, quiet and not necessarily contributing. 402 00:21:34,525 --> 00:21:36,475 So you've got to understand that I'm a deep thinker. 403 00:21:37,575 --> 00:21:42,495 which means that, when we're discussing problems or how we fix those problems, 404 00:21:42,865 --> 00:21:46,715 what's going on in the back of my mind is, picking up on all the different touch 405 00:21:46,715 --> 00:21:50,595 points that that's going to impact to make sure that it does actually work. 406 00:21:51,515 --> 00:21:54,545 And he turned around and he said to me, Rob, you've been operating 407 00:21:54,545 --> 00:21:56,955 in stealth mode your life. 408 00:21:57,455 --> 00:22:01,748 And what was amazing about that statement is, yes, it was true. 409 00:22:02,328 --> 00:22:02,648 Okay. 410 00:22:03,068 --> 00:22:07,786 Is that because I'm an introverted thinker, because I very happy to go away 411 00:22:08,156 --> 00:22:10,286 and let it consume me for the next week. 412 00:22:10,596 --> 00:22:13,936 I don't necessarily share that information with other people. 413 00:22:14,526 --> 00:22:18,596 that piece of work around stealth was quite an eye opener for me because 414 00:22:18,876 --> 00:22:19,916 you've got to balance that out. 415 00:22:20,404 --> 00:22:23,604 You can go away and work in stealth mode, which is absolutely fine. 416 00:22:24,004 --> 00:22:26,614 But then you have to come back and be transparent and share 417 00:22:26,614 --> 00:22:28,634 the ideas and share the plan. 418 00:22:29,285 --> 00:22:33,015 when I sit and talk with our guys, I might have 19 or 20 projects working 419 00:22:33,015 --> 00:22:36,165 in the background and none of them would necessarily know about that. 420 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:38,790 because I'm sneaking back into stealth mode. 421 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:43,447 So, very much in terms of my leadership style, working in those different 422 00:22:43,447 --> 00:22:47,047 environments, especially in an operation like ENTAIN, where there's a lot of 423 00:22:47,047 --> 00:22:52,957 politics involved, I have to over index on the transparency piece, and I have to 424 00:22:53,037 --> 00:22:55,597 really talk about that storytelling piece. 425 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,440 which is the unifying story. 426 00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:57,880 Yeah. 427 00:22:57,940 --> 00:23:00,080 So, hey, this is what we're doing guys. 428 00:23:00,110 --> 00:23:03,430 Here's the detail of it and keep doing that because if you remember 429 00:23:03,900 --> 00:23:08,860 working in a super fast paced business, what's, you know, we're doing something 430 00:23:08,860 --> 00:23:11,780 this week and in two weeks time, it might be totally different again. 431 00:23:12,690 --> 00:23:12,950 Leo: Yep. 432 00:23:13,780 --> 00:23:17,340 Rob Duthie: you have to over index on the communication piece and make sure 433 00:23:17,340 --> 00:23:18,730 everybody's coming along the story. 434 00:23:19,570 --> 00:23:21,940 Leo: One of the things I really loved about what you just said there, 435 00:23:21,940 --> 00:23:27,040 Rob, about being a deep thinker is that we are not all the same. 436 00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:32,070 very often, I think, as you know, stepping into a new role, we think we need to fit 437 00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:34,810 in some sort of managerial leadership box. 438 00:23:34,810 --> 00:23:35,090 And 439 00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:36,410 we all need to operate. 440 00:23:36,593 --> 00:23:40,083 In the same way or think in the same way, and that's simply not true. 441 00:23:40,613 --> 00:23:44,753 one of the things I love about you, Rob, is that you communicate that quite well. 442 00:23:44,763 --> 00:23:48,603 You communicate how you might actually sit in that corner and be 443 00:23:48,603 --> 00:23:51,763 quiet for a minute because you're thinking through something, how? 444 00:23:51,763 --> 00:23:53,043 has that changed over time? 445 00:23:53,043 --> 00:23:56,213 You might have, is that an area that you've struggled with historically? 446 00:23:56,243 --> 00:23:59,213 Is that something that you've picked up and made your strength over time? 447 00:23:59,413 --> 00:24:02,833 how's that specific skill set of yours, that being a deep 448 00:24:02,843 --> 00:24:04,753 thinker evolved over time? 449 00:24:06,611 --> 00:24:07,811 Rob Duthie: of it now than I've ever been. 450 00:24:08,478 --> 00:24:11,398 and just to build on that, and I have shared this with you before, but I 451 00:24:11,398 --> 00:24:16,218 have fascinated over just a single statement around happiness, fulfillment, 452 00:24:16,278 --> 00:24:19,978 engagement being found in the struggle of everything we do every day. 453 00:24:20,018 --> 00:24:22,098 And you can apply that to your personal relationships. 454 00:24:22,098 --> 00:24:23,958 You can apply that to your work environment. 455 00:24:24,418 --> 00:24:28,518 Instead of running away from challenges every day, I actually run towards 456 00:24:28,518 --> 00:24:33,758 them because within that challenge is actually very, very likely I'm 457 00:24:33,768 --> 00:24:37,358 going to find a lot of engagement and happiness and fulfillment. 458 00:24:37,671 --> 00:24:41,419 so because I'm more conscious of it, I'm more inclined to throw myself 459 00:24:41,849 --> 00:24:44,049 into super challenging scenarios. 460 00:24:44,959 --> 00:24:48,559 My boys who are older now, when the rains come down, you know, 461 00:24:48,629 --> 00:24:50,349 we've had rain in the last week. 462 00:24:50,599 --> 00:24:53,599 The first thing that I was saying is, dad, did you go out in the Jeep? 463 00:24:54,159 --> 00:24:56,379 Did you go and find some people that are stuck in the mud? 464 00:24:56,959 --> 00:24:59,919 And it's funny cause we, we look back and that's what we used to do. 465 00:25:00,049 --> 00:25:04,069 when the rain came down, we'd get some rope in the back and, go and find 466 00:25:04,529 --> 00:25:05,819 the challenges that are out there. 467 00:25:05,819 --> 00:25:07,229 That was just a subconscious thing. 468 00:25:07,229 --> 00:25:11,359 it's always been there, in terms of, running into challenges, a 469 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,589 lot of deep thought around those challenges and how we solve for them. 470 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,679 does come with a risk, because what I find is that will consume you, 471 00:25:18,889 --> 00:25:23,299 but does consume me every day, all day, probably seven days a week. 472 00:25:23,299 --> 00:25:26,599 So you have to be super conscious that, well, I do need to switch off. 473 00:25:27,361 --> 00:25:30,921 do need to stop thinking about these things and focus on family 474 00:25:30,921 --> 00:25:34,401 and focus in other areas of my life in terms of well being. 475 00:25:35,051 --> 00:25:36,091 but it is a superpower. 476 00:25:36,471 --> 00:25:38,451 So we all have our own superpowers. 477 00:25:38,711 --> 00:25:42,311 and it's important to understand that within the team environment, 478 00:25:42,361 --> 00:25:44,461 you don't want to have everybody that's a deep thinker. 479 00:25:44,822 --> 00:25:45,474 Leo: No, not exactly. 480 00:25:45,474 --> 00:25:46,844 Rob Duthie: that's not necessarily helpful. 481 00:25:46,914 --> 00:25:49,144 but I understand my place within the team. 482 00:25:49,999 --> 00:25:50,239 Leo: yeah, 483 00:25:50,564 --> 00:25:53,251 Rob Duthie: And that's quite key because that allows me to relax. 484 00:25:53,361 --> 00:25:56,761 That allows us as a team to perform very well because we've 485 00:25:56,781 --> 00:25:58,311 thought it through in detail. 486 00:25:58,781 --> 00:26:02,831 the older I get, the more comfortable I am with who I am. 487 00:26:03,207 --> 00:26:06,017 I don't feel I have to necessarily go and prove anything. 488 00:26:06,527 --> 00:26:09,137 And if I don't feel like saying anything, I won't say anything. 489 00:26:09,412 --> 00:26:12,482 unless it's meaningful and it's going to add value then I'll jump in and 490 00:26:12,482 --> 00:26:15,752 we'll start talking about it up to that point, I'm very comfortable 491 00:26:15,752 --> 00:26:17,422 to keep quiet And just listen 492 00:26:17,602 --> 00:26:19,182 Leo: key thing that you're talking about, right? 493 00:26:19,232 --> 00:26:23,102 Being yourself and not doing things that you think you should or 494 00:26:23,282 --> 00:26:26,002 being a person that you think you should be, but actually just being 495 00:26:26,002 --> 00:26:27,612 yourself and communicating that out. 496 00:26:28,162 --> 00:26:30,912 One thing that you've just said there, Rob, is, for a deep thinker 497 00:26:30,912 --> 00:26:34,122 like you, one of the big important things is switching off, right? 498 00:26:34,122 --> 00:26:37,392 Because you know, you're going to have running thoughts continuously. 499 00:26:37,442 --> 00:26:39,712 what is something that you do to help you switch off? 500 00:26:40,264 --> 00:26:43,987 Rob Duthie: it needs to be a total distraction for myself that tends to 501 00:26:43,987 --> 00:26:49,514 be around exercise Getting up riding a bicycle But something I'm conscious of 502 00:26:49,514 --> 00:26:53,774 is that I'm awake at five o'clock in the morning for many years I've spent that 503 00:26:53,774 --> 00:26:58,484 time, lying in bed trying to go back to sleep instead of actually embracing 504 00:26:58,494 --> 00:27:02,284 it and getting up and thinking, maybe my brain is trying to tell me something 505 00:27:02,334 --> 00:27:05,744 because my best times of the day are actually first thing in the morning. 506 00:27:06,084 --> 00:27:10,474 getting up at six where you've got really good quality quiet time. 507 00:27:10,766 --> 00:27:12,446 no distractions, no noise. 508 00:27:12,756 --> 00:27:16,076 really allows me to think about what it is I'm doing during the day. 509 00:27:16,206 --> 00:27:17,146 Plan for the day. 510 00:27:17,576 --> 00:27:21,096 So I'm not spending my whole day in that deep thinking state. 511 00:27:21,396 --> 00:27:23,866 I actually assign time in the day to do that. 512 00:27:24,336 --> 00:27:27,116 Do it first thing in the morning, when there's nobody around. 513 00:27:28,536 --> 00:27:29,726 read as much as I can. 514 00:27:30,005 --> 00:27:33,055 as part of my distraction and then, plan the day ahead of me. 515 00:27:33,055 --> 00:27:36,758 So when I come into the office and the meeting is from nine o'clock through 516 00:27:36,758 --> 00:27:40,328 to five o'clock meeting after meeting, I don't have to then rush home and 517 00:27:40,388 --> 00:27:43,918 carry on working because I've already prepped and planned early in the day. 518 00:27:44,152 --> 00:27:48,098 And that helps me get control of this crazy animal that we work in. 519 00:27:48,273 --> 00:27:52,163 and that allows me to spend time and be in the moment with the family. 520 00:27:52,253 --> 00:27:56,363 when I'm sitting at home and I'm talking to my wife or my boys, I'm actually there. 521 00:27:56,463 --> 00:27:58,783 I'm not deep in thought thinking about something else. 522 00:27:58,869 --> 00:28:00,669 you've got to be ruthless about these things. 523 00:28:01,109 --> 00:28:06,839 You really have to assign time, very clearly assigned time to say at this time 524 00:28:06,839 --> 00:28:08,229 of the day, I'm going to be doing this. 525 00:28:08,499 --> 00:28:11,559 And when I'm finished work, I'm going to dedicate my time. 526 00:28:11,869 --> 00:28:13,829 I'm going to be in the moment and I'm going to, be there 527 00:28:13,839 --> 00:28:15,829 for that session of the day. 528 00:28:16,309 --> 00:28:20,659 and actually what's fascinating is when you break that down, you really 529 00:28:20,659 --> 00:28:22,239 don't have a lot of time left. 530 00:28:22,606 --> 00:28:25,443 So when you break it down and say, well, I'm going to, do my 531 00:28:25,443 --> 00:28:26,833 emails between six and seven. 532 00:28:26,833 --> 00:28:28,913 And I'm going to have my deep thought between seven and eight. 533 00:28:28,943 --> 00:28:31,243 And then I'm going to have my breakfast and whatever until 534 00:28:31,623 --> 00:28:32,783 nine, I'll be in the office. 535 00:28:32,813 --> 00:28:34,123 And then you've got all your meetings, you know what I mean? 536 00:28:34,123 --> 00:28:37,393 When you start to break it down, you begin to realize How did I ever 537 00:28:37,423 --> 00:28:41,283 get anything done without really planning the day ahead of me? 538 00:28:41,669 --> 00:28:44,249 No wonder you get home and you're tired because you're trying 539 00:28:44,249 --> 00:28:46,289 to log on and read content. 540 00:28:46,299 --> 00:28:50,659 Bear in mind, regulatory changes is a lot of documentation that you've got 541 00:28:50,659 --> 00:28:52,259 to read and try and keep in your mind. 542 00:28:52,519 --> 00:28:55,689 So I'm doing all of that stuff at the wrong time of the day. 543 00:28:55,853 --> 00:28:56,093 Leo: Yep. 544 00:28:56,243 --> 00:28:58,653 Rob Duthie: I need to do it at the right time of the day and everything 545 00:28:58,653 --> 00:29:00,112 seems to flow nice and clearly. 546 00:29:01,001 --> 00:29:05,981 I Just a quick word of encouragement that if you're also struggling to switch off. 547 00:29:06,341 --> 00:29:09,221 Or find better balance in life then that's really normal. 548 00:29:09,671 --> 00:29:13,181 Many of the I gaming leaders that I've spoken with really 549 00:29:13,181 --> 00:29:14,381 struggle with that as well. 550 00:29:14,651 --> 00:29:18,701 It's very typical for being in a high pressure, fast paced industry. 551 00:29:18,761 --> 00:29:20,981 And it's difficult to kind of break out of that. 552 00:29:21,461 --> 00:29:24,791 Now if that's something that you want some support with, we've actually created the 553 00:29:24,851 --> 00:29:30,041 I gaming leader mastermind, where we help people live, lead and perform at their 554 00:29:30,041 --> 00:29:36,611 best using science proven methods to help them achieve sustainable peak performance. 555 00:29:36,921 --> 00:29:40,521 If that's something that you want to join, please head over to I gaming leader.com. 556 00:29:40,821 --> 00:29:41,391 And apply. 557 00:29:41,841 --> 00:29:43,431 Let's get back into the interview. 558 00:29:44,288 --> 00:29:47,355 Leo: One of the expressions I love, maybe this is one that you're going to think 559 00:29:47,365 --> 00:29:51,385 about for a long time as well, is that give your most important work the best 560 00:29:51,385 --> 00:29:53,875 of you instead of what's left of you. 561 00:29:54,065 --> 00:29:54,475 And I think 562 00:29:54,525 --> 00:29:57,085 most people actually do it the other way around, right? 563 00:29:57,085 --> 00:29:59,715 They do their most important work after all the back to 564 00:29:59,715 --> 00:30:01,875 backs, whenever they have time. 565 00:30:01,875 --> 00:30:04,620 one of the key things is to take charge of your time and calendar. 566 00:30:04,783 --> 00:30:08,103 And align that with how your brain works, you're up early because that's how your 567 00:30:08,103 --> 00:30:13,293 brain works and you feel energetic so align your most important work with that. 568 00:30:13,293 --> 00:30:14,173 I think it's key. 569 00:30:14,418 --> 00:30:16,418 Rob Duthie: Finding the balance is very important. 570 00:30:16,614 --> 00:30:17,864 Leo: Last two questions for you, Rob. 571 00:30:17,894 --> 00:30:23,674 First, what are the skills or behaviours that you for in leaders that you 572 00:30:23,674 --> 00:30:26,044 try to employ within your teams? 573 00:30:26,044 --> 00:30:30,001 What are some of the things that you find really important the team that you manage? 574 00:30:30,162 --> 00:30:32,392 Rob Duthie: there's a statement that says, love the one you're with. 575 00:30:32,942 --> 00:30:35,182 It doesn't matter what it looks like. 576 00:30:35,182 --> 00:30:36,972 It doesn't matter what the conditions are. 577 00:30:37,152 --> 00:30:40,702 and that's very important because the people that I employ and the 578 00:30:40,702 --> 00:30:44,502 teams that I work with, it's not going to be plane sailing every day. 579 00:30:45,107 --> 00:30:48,507 it's going to be challenging months, maybe even challenging years. 580 00:30:48,621 --> 00:30:52,381 And so how those individuals turn up and behave is super important to me. 581 00:30:52,381 --> 00:30:56,087 In fact, the experience counts for a lot, but the behavior counts for more. 582 00:30:56,887 --> 00:30:57,117 Leo: Yep. 583 00:30:58,067 --> 00:30:58,347 Rob Duthie: Okay. 584 00:30:58,357 --> 00:31:02,181 So when you wake up in the morning, you have to put on that game face. 585 00:31:02,521 --> 00:31:06,511 Even if you don't want to put it on, you have to because as leaders, 586 00:31:06,551 --> 00:31:07,531 people are looking up to you. 587 00:31:08,171 --> 00:31:11,301 there's a funny saying that the children of the people that 588 00:31:11,301 --> 00:31:13,331 you manage know you by name. 589 00:31:13,971 --> 00:31:17,101 So, when the people you manage go home, they talk about you. 590 00:31:17,254 --> 00:31:18,544 talk about you as a leader. 591 00:31:18,914 --> 00:31:22,495 They know you by your first name so it's very important that, I 592 00:31:22,495 --> 00:31:24,755 mean, there's a couple of values that I really drive forward. 593 00:31:24,835 --> 00:31:28,915 I would rather somebody, be humble and have honesty and integrity. 594 00:31:28,965 --> 00:31:29,895 I can work with that. 595 00:31:29,896 --> 00:31:30,114 You 596 00:31:30,114 --> 00:31:33,894 People that are engaged and genuinely want to be here, We can teach you 597 00:31:33,894 --> 00:31:38,124 about how to run this business and we can teach you the skill sets 598 00:31:38,154 --> 00:31:41,698 that you need to run the business, but I can't train in the behaviors. 599 00:31:41,698 --> 00:31:44,281 So So those for me are super, super important. 600 00:31:44,281 --> 00:31:45,961 we practice a lot of listening. 601 00:31:46,511 --> 00:31:47,621 to what people have to say. 602 00:31:47,651 --> 00:31:48,871 I don't have all the answers. 603 00:31:49,285 --> 00:31:50,975 I don't want to have all the answers either. 604 00:31:51,275 --> 00:31:55,155 Because as a team, we need to contribute and get the solution over the line. 605 00:31:55,388 --> 00:31:58,274 really good listening, a lot of humility, and we are here 606 00:31:58,274 --> 00:31:59,354 to serve at the end of the day, 607 00:31:59,491 --> 00:31:59,811 Leo: Yep. 608 00:31:59,906 --> 00:32:00,226 Rob Duthie: it or not. 609 00:32:00,301 --> 00:32:00,331 Leo: Yep. 610 00:32:00,331 --> 00:32:00,594 Love it. 611 00:32:00,645 --> 00:32:01,335 Yeah, it's true. 612 00:32:01,345 --> 00:32:01,785 I love it. 613 00:32:02,105 --> 00:32:05,445 and especially, you know, be the manager that you wish you had, right? 614 00:32:05,445 --> 00:32:08,905 it's such an important piece of advice, I think, because managers have 615 00:32:08,905 --> 00:32:11,425 more impact on your happiness than 616 00:32:11,925 --> 00:32:13,255 most other people in your lives. 617 00:32:13,265 --> 00:32:15,145 So, that is such a crucial piece. 618 00:32:15,195 --> 00:32:15,795 Really love that. 619 00:32:16,065 --> 00:32:16,245 Rob Duthie: Yeah. 620 00:32:16,245 --> 00:32:19,135 Look, we are super fortunate that We can lead the business. 621 00:32:19,315 --> 00:32:21,855 The problem with a lot of people is they want to be told what to do. 622 00:32:22,119 --> 00:32:25,843 I mean, if you think about it as your business, how would I run my own business? 623 00:32:26,047 --> 00:32:27,477 what decisions would I make? 624 00:32:27,687 --> 00:32:32,297 when there's a lot of fat in the business in terms of the payroll and you see that, 625 00:32:32,297 --> 00:32:36,517 the company has taken a decision around restructuring, you apply to yourself, 626 00:32:36,557 --> 00:32:38,437 what would I do in that situation? 627 00:32:38,691 --> 00:32:42,491 that means we take ownership and responsibility for how we do things. 628 00:32:42,591 --> 00:32:46,401 unless you turn up to work like that, the challenges you're going to face 629 00:32:46,411 --> 00:32:49,491 is that you won't be around very long because you have to be adaptable. 630 00:32:50,271 --> 00:32:53,351 You've got to understand that the business structure is going to change 631 00:32:53,351 --> 00:32:54,481 in the way the business is run. 632 00:32:54,491 --> 00:32:57,751 If you look at regulation, for instance, I always say regs come, it's 633 00:32:57,761 --> 00:32:59,021 going to come to everybody's door. 634 00:32:59,021 --> 00:33:01,756 It doesn't matter what, Markets you're in, whether you're Germany, 635 00:33:01,756 --> 00:33:03,986 Austria, Spain, it doesn't matter. 636 00:33:04,496 --> 00:33:07,106 Regulation will come, whether it's marketing affordability 637 00:33:07,106 --> 00:33:10,056 or player protection, it's going to come to your door. 638 00:33:10,416 --> 00:33:15,264 So you have to be forward thinking, open to saying, well, hang on, maybe 639 00:33:15,264 --> 00:33:18,926 I need to explore some of the areas that are not within regs today. 640 00:33:19,124 --> 00:33:20,034 It's just a mindset. 641 00:33:20,034 --> 00:33:22,284 If you think about the tobacco industry, they went through 642 00:33:22,284 --> 00:33:24,194 exactly the same challenges as we. 643 00:33:24,679 --> 00:33:25,929 pretty much having gaming. 644 00:33:25,929 --> 00:33:30,739 So you've got marketing prohibitions and underage considerations to factor in. 645 00:33:31,059 --> 00:33:34,539 we think outside of the box, what if there was a total prohibition 646 00:33:34,539 --> 00:33:38,849 on gambling for 18 to 25s what would we do in that environment? 647 00:33:38,999 --> 00:33:42,579 It's just how you think about these challenges that is super important. 648 00:33:43,143 --> 00:33:46,873 Leo: And then my final question, Rob, for listeners that, might want to have 649 00:33:46,893 --> 00:33:51,133 as an impactful career as, as you've had over the, over the 20 years. 650 00:33:51,133 --> 00:33:55,533 What's one piece of advice that you would offer maybe your younger 651 00:33:55,533 --> 00:33:57,833 self just starting out in gaming? 652 00:33:58,167 --> 00:34:00,077 Rob Duthie: mean, I have thought about this quite often. 653 00:34:00,077 --> 00:34:03,498 And I think that The biggest challenge is the pace, that I've 654 00:34:03,498 --> 00:34:05,258 moved at over the last 20 years. 655 00:34:05,498 --> 00:34:06,848 It hasn't been quick enough. 656 00:34:07,988 --> 00:34:12,258 And what I mean by that is like when I was a child at Victor's, I 657 00:34:12,258 --> 00:34:13,748 was there for seven, eight years. 658 00:34:14,138 --> 00:34:15,958 in hindsight, I should have moved quicker. 659 00:34:16,488 --> 00:34:20,878 I should have taken opportunity quicker because only moving from Chandra's 660 00:34:20,898 --> 00:34:24,668 to Stan's did I realize There's something different out here for me, 661 00:34:25,558 --> 00:34:27,158 Victor Chandler ran through my blood. 662 00:34:27,578 --> 00:34:30,038 I was super passionate about the brand. 663 00:34:30,318 --> 00:34:32,268 I never, wanted to leave that brand. 664 00:34:32,958 --> 00:34:36,658 But the minute I left, I suddenly realized there's something bigger out there for me. 665 00:34:37,648 --> 00:34:41,148 when I left Stanz, I was with Stanz for about 15, 16 months. 666 00:34:41,898 --> 00:34:45,138 When I left Stanz, I then went and, worked in the startup casino. 667 00:34:45,778 --> 00:34:46,788 the experience as well. 668 00:34:46,828 --> 00:34:48,398 There's something different out here for me. 669 00:34:49,038 --> 00:34:52,548 And then going over to EPG, which is a payment gateway. 670 00:34:52,878 --> 00:34:54,448 there's something new out here for me. 671 00:34:54,578 --> 00:34:59,291 So what I found is that my seasons, were shorter and shorter and if you 672 00:34:59,291 --> 00:35:04,191 think of childhood as eight years and then every other season I've had is 673 00:35:04,341 --> 00:35:10,326 four years or two years, I'm conscious that change does happen and that I 674 00:35:10,326 --> 00:35:15,416 should embrace it and move with it rather than sitting in a season, because 675 00:35:15,416 --> 00:35:17,306 I think we're all guilty of this. 676 00:35:17,336 --> 00:35:21,076 We sit in a season and we just stagnate in that season. 677 00:35:21,466 --> 00:35:23,216 If the season is finished. 678 00:35:23,636 --> 00:35:27,026 So my encouragement to anybody is if you feeling that the season is 679 00:35:27,026 --> 00:35:28,966 finished, then get up and move. 680 00:35:29,626 --> 00:35:34,176 Don't stay in that and stagnate because there's so much opportunity 681 00:35:34,176 --> 00:35:39,546 out there I'd rather be going out, and taking a risk, for something which 682 00:35:39,546 --> 00:35:43,316 is bigger out there that's going to help me develop and grow than sit in 683 00:35:43,316 --> 00:35:45,426 a stagnant position for many years. 684 00:35:45,513 --> 00:35:49,549 so yeah, the pain, I think for me, if I could play it back, I would definitely 685 00:35:49,549 --> 00:35:51,939 move quicker, and be more intent. 686 00:35:52,639 --> 00:35:54,559 Around what it is I wanna do. 687 00:35:54,819 --> 00:35:57,989 one of the ladies that worked here, Julie Dalman, she was running the 688 00:35:57,989 --> 00:36:01,949 UK for a couple of years and Julie always had this, fascinating, way 689 00:36:01,949 --> 00:36:03,449 of visualizing decision making. 690 00:36:03,449 --> 00:36:06,569 And she always said to me, you know, Rob, what are your must have? 691 00:36:07,389 --> 00:36:10,789 What are your five must haves around decision making? 692 00:36:10,809 --> 00:36:15,271 So, you know, your must have means that I need development, or I need a bigger 693 00:36:15,271 --> 00:36:19,890 salary, or I need a certain location, or I need to be close to my family, or 694 00:36:19,890 --> 00:36:25,297 I need to be healthy, or, you know, what are the must haves that you need in order 695 00:36:25,297 --> 00:36:30,147 to either stay in the job that you're doing, or move into something else? 696 00:36:30,752 --> 00:36:33,762 And if your must haves are that four out of the five or five out 697 00:36:33,762 --> 00:36:37,652 of the seven, whatever it is, all crosses, that's the wrong decision. 698 00:36:38,142 --> 00:36:42,432 But if the must haves are all ticked, then you move, so if I'm sitting in a 699 00:36:42,432 --> 00:36:47,022 position and I'm feeling stagnated and I'm not getting developed, just go through 700 00:36:47,022 --> 00:36:48,502 the process of what are my must haves. 701 00:36:48,972 --> 00:36:52,452 And if they're not there, then you know, the season's over and it's time to move. 702 00:36:53,827 --> 00:36:55,637 Leo: Fantastic note to end on. 703 00:36:55,637 --> 00:36:59,747 Thank you very much, Robin, and thank you for being so open and honest and sharing 704 00:36:59,747 --> 00:37:01,620 all of your experience has been fantastic. 705 00:37:01,710 --> 00:37:02,050 Thank you. 706 00:37:02,572 --> 00:37:02,862 Rob Duthie: Brilliant. 707 00:37:02,892 --> 00:37:03,242 Thank you, Leo 708 00:37:04,347 --> 00:37:04,677 Wow. 709 00:37:04,677 --> 00:37:09,207 What a great conversation with Rob it's left me so inspired because we 710 00:37:09,207 --> 00:37:12,957 all know the challenges that Entain has been through over the last few years. 711 00:37:12,957 --> 00:37:18,027 So him opening up about how he's gone through that and what kind of leader 712 00:37:18,027 --> 00:37:20,327 he is, I found really insightful. 713 00:37:20,357 --> 00:37:22,547 It left me with three specific takeaways. 714 00:37:23,117 --> 00:37:28,337 The first one was that it's really about being authentically you, right? 715 00:37:28,427 --> 00:37:32,657 Embracing yourself and who you are and leading in a way that's. 716 00:37:33,077 --> 00:37:34,907 You know, it's true to your values. 717 00:37:34,937 --> 00:37:39,167 It's such an important skill to have as a high performance leader. 718 00:37:39,167 --> 00:37:43,637 The second thing is that it's all about embracing change as well. 719 00:37:43,697 --> 00:37:46,697 Businesses will go up and down and it's inevitable. 720 00:37:47,057 --> 00:37:50,987 So as a high performance leader, your ability to ride with that 721 00:37:50,987 --> 00:37:55,757 change and embrace change is such a key skill in also helping your 722 00:37:55,757 --> 00:37:58,307 teams become high-performance teams. 723 00:37:59,177 --> 00:38:03,737 And the third thing, which I loved the most was his approach to actively 724 00:38:03,737 --> 00:38:08,687 seeking out challenges, because he finds happiness and engagement on 725 00:38:08,687 --> 00:38:10,217 the other side of that challenge. 726 00:38:10,517 --> 00:38:12,137 And that is so true, isn't it? 727 00:38:12,647 --> 00:38:16,727 Every single dream that we have goes to die inside of our comfort zone. 728 00:38:16,727 --> 00:38:20,927 It's outside of our comfort zone where all our dreams happen. 729 00:38:20,957 --> 00:38:23,327 So I really loved his approach there. 730 00:38:23,807 --> 00:38:24,977 So that's it for this week. 731 00:38:25,007 --> 00:38:28,277 If you found this episode helpful, please leave a rating or review. 732 00:38:28,307 --> 00:38:33,227 It helps us so much with other gaming leaders, like you finding this podcast. 733 00:38:33,597 --> 00:38:35,817 And if you've already done that, you're an absolute legend. 734 00:38:35,817 --> 00:38:38,967 Make sure that you send it to somebody else that might need 735 00:38:38,967 --> 00:38:40,377 to hear this podcast as well. 736 00:38:40,707 --> 00:38:41,787 So that's it for this week. 737 00:38:41,937 --> 00:38:45,677 Next week, we're interviewing Dmitry Belianin. 738 00:38:45,987 --> 00:38:49,587 He is the CEO and founder of actually three different companies. 739 00:38:49,587 --> 00:38:50,877 He's serial entrepreneur. 740 00:38:50,877 --> 00:38:53,457 He's been in the industry for 17 years. 741 00:38:53,547 --> 00:38:55,197 Real high performer. 742 00:38:55,407 --> 00:39:01,447 Has got some fantastic insights on what it requires to move from, starting off 743 00:39:01,477 --> 00:39:05,980 early in your career, all the way to his case, running three different businesses. 744 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,800 So I'd love for you to see that episode next week. 745 00:39:08,830 --> 00:39:09,970 I hope to see you there. 746 00:39:10,330 --> 00:39:11,710 And I'll speak to you soon. 747 00:39:12,130 --> 00:39:12,550 Take care.