FWDstart Podcast
Quiqup’s Bassel El Koussa

We've raised $45 million in the UK. I don't think that there was a time that I've spent more than a month before the checks and the term sheets started to come in. And when Uber launched, it was like no phone calls answered. It was just like crickets. Dude, that was so difficult shutting down the office in the UK and letting go all of these people. That is the most difficult out of everything else. We carried the cap table for a post-Series A company back to a pre-seed company. In 2022, we made the decision to get out of on-demand food and grocery delivery entirely, and in that year, we cut our revenue by 50%. We had an investor that came in at the time, and I quote him., "Bassel, you told me the news and I wanted to fall off my chair." You would've probably been forgiven for throwing in the towel. You did the hard thing multiple times. When We moved here to Dubai, there was the four co-founders and like two other team members.

We were in like a two-bedroom apartment that was tiny. We kept the jokes going. We kept who we are and, and we all felt this, uh, huge sense of duty towards taking the more difficult path. It's gonna be a better story to tell. I'm here to tell it I think we're beholden to go back to adequately contextualize what Quiqup is today.

We probably need to understand what it was back in 2014. Yeah. Long time ago. Yeah. So what was the original thesis underpinning it? And I'm always curious about anyone who ends up in logistics because we tend to, when we're children, not dream of going into something like logistics. Yeah. So what happens to someone that makes them venture into that space?

What went wrong or what went right? yeah, I mean, I think it's like you don't realize that you're going into logistics. Yeah, you're just- Or it'It's too late. It's funny because we started Quiqup, um, uh, I think it was like, you know, we, we were just, like, ideating at the time. Yeah. We're really attracted by the concept, which is, at the time, 2014, what we built was an on-demand get anything you want delivered in London within 40 minutes.

Hmm. Um, so actually it wasn't even called Q-Commerce at the time. It was- Yeah, you preceded that, didn't you? There wasn't... Yeah, right. Like This was before, uh, delivery wasn't even really- No, they, they had kind of- Wasn't, it's kind of started, but- They had, like, a head start on us Yeah. They, they weren't even on mobile.

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. It's, it's crazy. You know? So, so we, we went, we went kind of, uh, mobile first- Yeah... and, you know, at that time, man, it just, uh, it's crazy, like, what happened the past, like, 10 years, right? Yeah. At that time, this, like, concept of leveraging location-based services on your phone- Hmm to be able to manage a decentralized logistics operation- Yeah... to be able to tap into gig economy, uh, drivers who would deliver goods and, and build a consumer proposition on top. I mean, that, that was the, that was the, uh, the whole premise. And couple of weeks into that, one of my co-founders at the time, uh, Ramy- Hmm uh, looks at me, he's like, "Man, so this is a logistics company." I'm like, "No. What the hell are you talking about?" That's a dirty word. Yeah. So, so look, for us, I think we were kind of like, you know, we were, we were building something that we would use in London. Yeah. You know? Um, we were building, um, a, like, I wanna be lazy, sat on the couch and get things- Yeah delivered to me kind of thing. Yeah. You know, that was the... It, it just, like, spoke to our lifestyle at the time, you know? And the, uh, we were not lazy by any means. We were- Yes... we had very, very, uh, difficult jobs. We were actually working in venture capital at the time. Hmm. But we have lazy personalities, and so sat on the couch, um, uh, after work.

You didn't wanna go and run- Exhausted. You've done all the errands. Yeah, yeah. It's like- You didn't wanna run the errands. You just want it delivered to you. And you know, man, like, funny enough, uh, I was, I was thinking about this earlier today is, like, some of our very early, uh, user research- Yeah Um, outcomes that we, we got was like, you know, we'd speak to our users and, and we'd say like, "Okay, so walk us through your experience with the app."

And they're like, you know, one of, one of the things that pr- prevents us from ordering more is a feeling of shame. You're kidding. I swear to God, man. Wow. It's like, I feel bad that I'm ordering something that I could actually go walk- Get myself... and buy myself- Yeah... and do myself. And I was just like thinking about like how, how dramatically that mindset has shifted- Mm and that user behavior has shifted from, from that time. So, so this is just to show you that like we were- It's ... we were quite early in that- Yeah... in that place. So, so yeah, so basically we built this on-demand, get anything delivered to you. Yeah. Um, and then from there realized that the, the biggest- Big problems that we were solving were actually logistics problems, because that business bleeds a lot of cash if you- For sure... don't get the- Yeah... operations right. And, and so we needed to really focus on that to make it work and, and so that's when we realized we were in a logistics business ultimately.

What, did it skew towards any one industry or sector in particular in terms of what you were delivering? Um, so I mean, obviously food was- The number, yeah... generally like top of mind. Yeah. So it was food and grocery. Those were the two largest categories for us. But I would say there was like a an, a very significant amount of Harrods- Yes orders. No way, really? Yeah, like- Wow. Uh, so we launched initially in, uh, Kensington, Chelsea, and Mayfair. Yeah. Uh- Those dirt, that, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and so we, you know, we, we had a lot of people that would order very expensive items from us. Yeah. Uh, uh- What was the business model or how was it?

A fee on top? So, so we would, yeah, like we, we would basically go and purchase on your behalf. Mm-hmm. If a, uh, if a shop is not listed on our app- Yeah... we'd still surface a lot of their catalog- Mm-hmm... uh, by scraping, et cetera. Um, and, and then we'd go and purchase on your behalf, charge you a service fee, charge you a delivery fee, and, uh, and deliver within an hour.

And, you know, we had, we had lot, lots of cases. Every time an iPhone would, or an Apple product would launch- Yes... people would ask us to have ... our drivers stand in the queue and wait for that launch so that they can get the first iPhone, and we would, we'd make a killing on that, man, because, like- Yeah we're charging the service fee, and then we'll charge that kind of queue time, et cetera. Um, but yeah, that, that business model, man, it was, um... Yeah, it was very expensive to maintain. Quite a price. Yeah, especially in London as well. I mean, I'm sure the unit economics there were even tougher then. We were...

And to quote, uh, one of our board members, Fouad Said, he 'd say, "We were running a negative 65% gross margin business," and now we're, like, uh, high, like high in- It's crazy... several te- tens. Yeah. Um, uh, but yeah, we, we, uh, we, we were basically financing every single order- Mm... and, and financing the growth until at some point it would make sense.

Uh, as we were getting to the point that it would make sense- Yes... Uber decides to launch Uber Eats. Yeah. Great, great timing. And London, London was the first market, you know? Like so, so it, it made it very difficult for us to keep up that fight because ultimately, uh, Deliveroo was in pole position. Yes. Food was the lar- Food delivery was the largest category.

They were laser-sharp focused on that, and they owned that. Mm. And, you know, from, uh, for us, I don't know if this was the right thing or not. I mean, what made us able to compete is the fact that we were horizontal and we can, we can do anything. Do so much, yeah. Yeah. Uh, but at the same time, food was the battlefield to win.

Yeah. So, uh, so yeah, like, uh, we, we... Deliveroo had pole position, and they were able to raise a lot more cash, had deeper-pocketed investors at that time- Mm... um, so were able to sustain Uber's entry into the market. Uber went in, man, guns blazing. Yeah. It was promo codes galore. Mm. You know? As they were, uh, you, you would eat for free- Yeah uh, if you knew how to play the Uber game. uh, refer a friend, get a promo code- Yeah... et cetera, et cetera. Um, so yeah, I mean, ultimately it just became very difficult for us to maintain that fight and, uh, and pivoted to what we do today. How quickly did you recognize, "Oh, we need to jump ship and get out of here.

This is, this is not the game we want to be playing in right now. Let's go do this." Was delivery as a service was kind of the next evolution? Am I correct in thinking? Yeah. I mean- It's a good question, uh, and I wanna be honest with it, I think. Um, look, I thi- I think, I think there was a realization from the moment Uber launched- Mm that this sort of, like, B2C model, at least in London was- Yeah... was, was not gonna work. And in fact, we had started pivoting, uh, into, uh, delivery as a service in the UK. Mm. So we, and we, we had launched, uh, we had launched, um, uh, a Tesco partnership where- Ah... where we, we built, we co-built a Tesco now proposition- Mm which sort of looks like what, um, uh, Gopuff and- Yeah ... and Zap- Yeah, yeah... look like today, but it was, it was Tesco branded. Ah, okay. I, I can't believe they shut down that program, man. They could've... They were, they were gonna be the first, and we, you know, we... They were gonna be the first in that space.

That's mad. Really, isn't it? And so we had launched with Tesco. You can go on the Tesco app, Tesco now app, and you'd get anything delivered within an hour. What year, what year was this? Uh, 2016. Oh, so early. Yeah. Well, Tesco was having a really hard time at the time- Yeah... I think. And they, they were doing some bit of cost cutting, and this project sat within this innovation scene- That's just, yeah that got shut down entirely, and that project went with it. Oh, such a shame. Isn't it? Yeah, I mean, I mean, our lives would've been very different. Yeah, of course. Um- Yeah, yeah... uh, so we were kind of, like, already dabbling- Playing, yeah... in that. And, and we did some stuff with, like, Burger King and Whole Foods and, um, and we were

We launched a same-day delivery proposition for H&M as well. Mm. So we, we were kind of venturing out and, and I would say that was, like, literally at the time Uber Eats had launched. Yep. And we thought we would be able to gradually pivot. Mm. Didn't realize the impact of Uber's launch on our ability to fundraise actually.

Oh, okay. To, for us to be able to see more of those, uh, bets come through. What was the response then from a fund? Was it just these guys are going to conquer all and we're- Man, like I can tell you I've, you know, we've raised, um, I think $45 million- Yep... in the UK. Mm. Um, I don't think that there was a time that I've spent more than a month, you know, with, in the process before- Okay the checks and the term sheets started to come in. Okay. You know, we were, we were on a really good roll. Mm. Um, and when Uber launched, it was like no phone calls answered. It was just like crickets. Where have, where have all my friends gone? Yeah, yeah. It's such And all of a sudden I was like in, in, on road shows that would extend six, eight, 12, 11, 10 months for me to get like a check.

And so it became very, uh, very difficult. So the writing was on the wall. Um, uh, 20, so 2016 we did the Tesco thing. 2017, Uber launches. Um, end of 2017, we launch in the UAE- Mm... as a means for us to continue on this delivery as a service bet that we were making, but going into a new market- Yes... uh, and doing, and part of the reason we came here was we had some strategic inve- investors from this region- I was curious retailers. Mm. And, you know, like Lebanese heritage, I kind of understood that- There's a connection, yeah... there's, there's an interesting play in the region and that like e-commerce was still very nascent here. Yes. Let's ride the wave from, from the beginning and be part of how the ecosystem gets built. I love it.

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so yeah, the ba- basically 2- 2018, going out and trying to raise money and realizing that, you know, we can't, we just can't sustain, forced us, us to make this move into, uh, the UAE and just stop our bets in the UK and, and redirect our energy here. 'Cause it's an unusual trajectory.

Like we're generally used to the ambition is you start up shop here and then you go to London. Yeah. But look, look, and like maybe Fresha is the example that springs to mind in terms of a company that did that, but again, it's a SaaS play. It's not quite the same, whereas- Delivery is difficult. Hyper, hyper local, um- So was that what it was driven by?

Did you find when you initially came over here like, oh, this actually, this makes more sense, this, you know, economics here, okay, we can, we can grow this thing, delivery as a service here is something that we can see progressing as much as, okay, shit, the UK is pretty damn difficult right now. Yeah. It was also, yeah, the UAE has a lot of potential.

Look, I don't want to bash the UK because it's a great market for e-com. Absolutely, yeah. Like, uh, one of- it's probably one of the best markets for e-commerce in the world, and, uh, London specifically. Absolutely. Right? And there was potential there. Mm-hmm. Um, the cards didn't play out that way for us.

Yeah. The attraction to the UAE, uh, was one, the unit economics made a lot more sense here. Mm-hmm. Uh, two, this like shame element- Yes... you know, it does not exist here. Yeah. Getting stuff delivered is the expectation, right? Mm-hmm. Like, it's like, um... And when you looked at the, uh, e-commerce ecosystem in a, in a, in a city or a country that barely has a pedestrian culture, you looked at e-com at the time, 6 to 7% of overall retail spend were go- was going there.

I was like, "This does not make sense." Saturation was so low. Yeah, yeah. It's mad looking back. So, so the, it, like the growth was bound to happen. It needed a catalyst, and we knew that. And so, and we, we also knew at the time that, you know, we... And, and just to kind of like with, with, uh, try to say this without sounding arrogant- Yeah but like our tech was superior and, uh, for, to a large extent still is to the players- Yep... uh, here. Um, I think that's down to our culture, the way that we've kind of built the team- Yeah... the way that we kind of do not constrain ourselves to logistics. Yes. You know, we talked about, uh, not hiring people from the industry.

We never did- Mm... until very recently. And so, and I, I think we you know, this kind of being small and nimble gave, uh, and, and always pushing the boundary and using the like the newest tech frameworks allowed us to really stay ahead. Mm. Uh, the, the reason why I say this is that like we were able to penetrate, penetrate the market quite aggressively- Yeah very quickly in the beginning. Um, you know, we had a great team here that launched as well. And, um, and yeah, we saw that, uh, there's just a lot of tailwinds that were about to come, right? Yeah. At, you know, if you looked at e-commerce here in 2017, 2018, it wasn't yet as exciting as it became post-COVID.

Oh, certainly not. You know? Absolutely. Just like uh, exploded post-COVID. Yeah. What did go-to-market look like? Um, because maybe conventional wisdom suggests, okay, get a big anchor sort of either conglomerate or logo that helps in terms of validation with the, the smaller players, more trickle-down effect. Or did you go super broad?

Like obviously today you service everything from like, I don't know, a two-person Shopify platform- Yeah... to the, to the big guys. But when you initially were, were coming to the UAE, what was the, the initial focus? Look, there was a, I mean, there was a let's get logos- Yeah... approach for sure. But then there was, I mean, we serviced, um, restaurants and grocery stores at the beginning as well.

Hmm. We got out of that uh, in 2022, um, and focused purely on traditional e-commerce., With the restaurant and grocery stores, I mean, it was literally salespeople on the streets going store to store and like- Really?... and, and selling on the spot. Yeah. Uh, um, and then there was a bit of like whale hunting on the conglomerate side.

We- Yeah... you know, um, uh, Danny Adzain, who was the general manager at the time, he went straight for the big players. Like, he went for the Chalhoub and the Azadea- Mm-hmm... and, uh, et cetera of the world, and we managed to um, uh, get through because what we had was quite, uh, unique. We were telling these guys, uh, "Look, you can deliver same day and even within four hours.

Uh, you're a premium brand." Sephora launched, uh, e-commerce with same-day delivery with Quiqup- Yeah... uh, as their debut in the region. And, and then, uh, and I think that that gave us a lot of notoriety, um, that then opened up the doors for, uh, a lot of other, uh, retailers. So, um, really in the beginning it was like kind of, um, a lot of these, um, large mul- multinational brands, uh, became, became part of our kind of client list.

And, and the reason for that is also the shape of the market at that time. Um, when e-commerce penetration was so low- Mm... it, you know, it's very difficult to acquire customers on, online 'cause the traffic is low. It's not there. And so the, the-- if, if you were not an Amazon or a Noon, uh, you're typically, um, uh, a, an international brand that has a budget to be in the space.

Mm-hmm. Um, it was only post-COVID that you started getting the Shopify phenomenon- Yes... and the sort of like this independent entrepreneur wanting to start an e-com business. During and post-COVID, we started to see a lot more of those. And in fact, if you look at the number of, of Shopify stores in, that are active in the region, that number, uh, literally went about 13X between 2021 and today.

Wow. Uh, it's, it's, it's, it's wild. And so the shape of the market started to change post-COVID and, and so our go-to-market changed dramatically as a result. Mm. Um, yeah. I actually wanted to ask you about maybe that, that time, to, to bring it back slightly When you were making that, that pivot and you were relocating to the UAE, was that incredibly stressful?

Man. I say that, I know, I, I know the answer. I, I just, uh- Understatement of the century. Yes. Uh- For how long, like... Dude, that was so difficult. Like, uh, um, you know, you, you're literally upending your life, right? Yeah. It's like, we did not plan to to leave UK. Actually, the plan was that from the UK we grow into different- Mm parts of Europe and, and, uh, you know, the you establish your life in a certain way- Yeah, yeah... uh, um, for that kind of future. Um, so there's that. Um, there is also shutting down the office in, in the UK and letting go all of these people. That is the most difficult out of everything else., There is getting the shareholders to, continue on that journey and, uh, managing what ended up becoming a fairly complex cap table as a result, right?

Because, you know, we carry the cap table- Yes, yeah... for a post Series A company back to a pre-seed company, right? Yeah, yeah. Like, and, and so we, there was a lot of, um, work that we needed to do eventually to reconcile that. Yeah. And then it's sort of like this change in the market context, the culture.

As much as I'm Lebanese, like- Yeah... you know, my professional training was predominantly in the UK. Mm. And it was... And like the, the way of doing business was very different. The way of raising cash was very different. Yeah. The way that you pitched an investor is very different. The way that you closed business was very different, you know?

Mm. Um, you know, people wanna-- people here are much more into people than they are in the UK. Oh, for sure. For sure. Right? Absolutely. And then that, and that, that's a very refreshing thing. Absolutely. But it was, it was, it was something that we needed- Big mindset shift. Yeah, it was a mindset shift.

And, um, and yeah, like, I mean, it was very difficult. Even, like- I don't know if you want to go into any- No, even from a, like a localization perspective with the product, was there a big difference? Like, cash on delivery is probably, it's still a thing, but it was definitely a bigger thing, I would think, back then.

Yeah, I mean, look, I think it's, it, it's less of a thing in, uh, as opposed to like, "Where's your house?" Yeah. Postcode, you know? Great point. Yeah. I'm completely for- like, that's just, I suppose, like indicative of just how quickly things have accelerated. Yeah, yeah. That you actually forget that. Like, I forgot, like Fetchr was only like, that was not that long ago that- Yeah they were solving for that problem. Okay, speak to that then ... because that's something I'd nearly entirely underestimated. Yeah, so I mean, like we had to like build practices and tools to reconcile addressing. Yeah. We did a lot of work with, uh, machine learning to try to get better pins, uh, for the drivers to enter the home, uh, enter a building in the fastest way possible, find parking the path fastest way possible.

Um, and we, we continue to do that kind of work. The UAE has announced that they're gonna, uh, uh, roll out some sort of- Yeah... postcode system. But even then you'll still need to do some work around, making sure that, you know, the driver is, well supported in finding, uh, the spot. But, you know, like with all the work that we did- Yeah it's so funny, like the best outcomes was, was when you had drivers specialize in certain areas- Mm-hmm... because they end up knowing all the kind of- Nooks and crannies, they kind of know the alleyways, yeah... yeah, they know where to park and at what time is the right time to go to that building versus that building.

Yeah. So, so like, you know, we've be- we've been going back and forth on this like concept of like route planning- Mm... uh, and how much we can squeeze in terms of efficiency by, by doing that versus just kind of having drivers own areas- Yeah... and give them like a rough view of how the route should look like, and then leave it to them to, to make those judgment calls.

That's fair. Um, yeah. Anyway, so yeah, addressing was, uh, was a main one. And then, yeah, and then the other, the other was just like the way to sell, you know? Like- It, it, the, you, you sell here, you sell to a person- Mm-hmm... and you need to build that relationship and that trust, and it is sometimes the product and the service is secondary to that- Yeah you know? Oh, totally. And, and that required an, an completely different, like, organizational structure and approach, uh, to, to- To readjust ... deliver on that... different timelines, I definitely find is- Even, even my job, man Yeah Like, I, I spend a lot of time with people- Mm... uh, way more than I did. I spent way more time in the office in London than Yeah, true than I do here, uh, as And it's out and about as well, isn't it? It's in person. That's not my expectation. People aren't coming to you. Yeah. You're going. Yeah, yeah. You're going out there. Yeah, yeah. 100%., The, the business model. Is it, has it been with regard to the delivery fleet and drivers, et cetera, what's been the model as far as that's concerned? Like, conventional logic says try and keep it asset light- Mm-hmm and we've had, like, maybe the UK was very gig economy focused. Yeah. Things have changed here with regulation, and you have third-party fleets and- Yeah... Saudi is kind of reeling with that at the moment. Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's really, really difficult, and there's a, there's a mass shortage. What has that been like for you?

Because it's probably actually evolved over time considering how long you've been in the market, you've probably gone through every sort of iteration of this. Yeah. So, so look, I wanted... I'll, I'll answer your question- Mm... but I wanna take us back to, uh, um, a couple of decisions that we made in 2022- Yeah in terms of how we evolved the business- Mm... and then we can talk about where the business- Yeah, please... is going from there. But, but then from there I'll, I'll dive into the operational model as well. Awesome. Like, in 2022, you know, we saw the, that the thesis that we had when we first entered the market was starting to take shape.

Mm. You know, post-COVID- Right... we started to see this, like, gradual, ever so slightly acceleration of number of Shopify active stores in the region, and we started to see homegrown brands that were making it big. Yeah. Squatwolf, uh, Giving Movement, uh, Humantra. Eyewa, I got- Yeah. Right, right... that was, that was my kind of- But the Eyewa was, like, a bit, uh, it was a bit before- Bit later probably.

Yeah, yeah... it was a bit before the, that wave, right? Yes. So, so we were, we were, we were, um, so we were seeing that phenomenon start to take shape, and we were like, "Okay, this is the time to actually, uh, lean entirely into that thesis." Mm. And so- We, we made the decision to get out of on-demand food and grocery delivery entirely.

And in that year, we cut our revenue by 50%. It was a, an, What? You know, our, our... Uh, we had an investor that came in at the time, and, and I, I quote him. His name, a board member called Anees. He's like, "Bassel, you told me the news-" Oh, the French. Yeah... "and I wanted to fall off my chair." Yes. Yes. I can imagine Anees saying that.

Yeah. Uh, I'll get him to watch this, actually. So we cut 50% of our revenues. We're like, "Okay, we're gonna focus on this, um, on this segment, and we need to, we need to build for these businesses of the future that are gonna have needs across the entire logistics value chain." Um, and so we thought at the time is like, as a first step, let's do everything from inventory sitting on the shelf stored- Yeah picking and packing to international shipping, local shipping, and returns. Mm. Um, so we'd expand the scope of what we do, uh, and we become more of an end-to-end solution with the ambition of expanding even further out from that, and we can talk about that- Yeah, yeah... in a second. Um- Um, and the, so that was the second decision.

The third decision was that we would we would start to focus on regional enablement. Mm. In the sense that we, we realize that the success of an e-commerce brand is to grab as much population size as possible. The region is, uh, difficult to serve both in cross-border shipping- Yeah, yeah... or in, um, moving, uh, inventory across and selling locally- Mm because, uh, logistic solutions are not built for these smaller businesses that are growing with those ambitions in a, in a, in a, in a modern way. Yep. So we would develop a way for businesses to be able to service the region and move across the region in a simpler, uh, in a simpler way. And then the third decision is that as we expand and add those services that we need to complete that offering- Yep that we would do that without building physical operations for those services. Mm. As in, uh, when we stock for clients- Yeah... in warehouses and when we do the picking and packing or when we, uh, land their stock into Saudi Arabia, we're working with a network of partners. Mm. We're not aggregating.

Yep. We are deeply integrated with a, a select, uh, set of partners- Mm... that enable us to deliver this full solution to our clients. That includes international shipping with several carriers, uh, globally. Yep. Um, warehouses across the UAE and Saudi. um, uh, the ability to ship into retail store, et cetera, et cetera.

So it's another full control over the experience, which is- Yeah. It's very important for us to own the experience end to end and to own the data consolidation end to end- Mm... to provide a proper insight and decision-making support to our clients, and that's one of the areas that we're gonna be- Yep expanding into in, uh, the future. Um, and so to answer your question on the, on the, uh, on the delivery side, uh, LastMile UAE- Mm-hmm... is something that we retain, and we retain dearly because it's our flagship. Yep. We were able to set the gold standard for quality and, and speed in this market, uh, when it comes to LastMile.

And we, we keep that as our, uh, as the model that keeps us close to operations when we expand into new countries. It, it's, it's our kitchen. It's where we test- Yes... uh, where we test new features and services and are then able to roll them out with third-party operators as well. Mm. But it's stuff that we've built proprietary and we know works on the ground.

Um- So that's, that's, that's been the approach. And within that last mile, uh, it's, um, it's an asset light-ish model. Mm-hmm. So we work with like manpower agencies, uh, that provide, uh, drivers, but the drivers sor- sort of have their incentive, uh, scheme built by us- Okay... but then managed by the agencies.

Interesting. It's just the way to deal with the- Yeah, yeah... local re- uh, regula- Yeah, yeah... regulation. So did I answer your question? You absolutely did. Okay, cool. No, that 's absolutely fantastic. Yeah. Uh, well, you touched on there as well, and it, it's partially the reason that I reached out was my experience with Quiqup myself as a, as a customer and a consumer.

So- You're a customer? Uh, well, with, sorry, with regard to, I suppose I'm a B2B2C. I am the- Oh, yeah, yeah. You're, you're the end customer, yeah... I am the end customer as it relates to, for example, Eyewa or Nike or- Yeah... um, Sun and Sand And I think it was maybe the first time I ordered from Sunniesense. It was a couple of years ago, uh, and it was whatever, I got the WhatsApp from, it was from Quiqup- Yeah and I was like, "This is highly unusual." This is, this is not what I'm used to when it comes to delivery. Usually it's buried somewhere in an email that I get when I've ordered something. It's like a tiny little box- Yeah... that's poorly formatted. I have to go through to it. Uh, it doesn't work. I have to enter- Yeah a tracking code. And for me it was, like, revelatory. Uh, I'll be honest, and I was like, "God." Yeah. Like, I actually have... No, but gen- genuinely, I'm not just saying this 'cause- Good... you know, to big up your ego. But I was like, this is just totally different to my general experience when it comes to ordering something, and the transparency with regards to supply chain, and seeing actually what's happening was so encouraging, and it definitely did lead to me going, "Okay, I definitely will order from Sunniesense again 'cause I know exactly where, what's going on here."

Um, how much, like, talk to me about the process. 'Cause from a UX perspective, it's so differentiated as far as I'm concerned amongst other players in the market, in that it just, it just works. It's nice to look at. Yeah. I like engaging with it. Yeah. It's, it's, everything about it is just, for me it's a reassurance perspective.

As the, the end customer I'm like, okay, if I'm ordering from someone and they have Quiqup same thing goes with Eyewa, I'll get my contact lenses. Yeah. It's as much because, look, Eyewa's good, but it's also, funnily enough, it's because of Quiqup, 'cause I, Yeah... like knowing when something is going to arrive, and it does arrive when it says it arrives.

So talk to me about that. I've done enough flattering now. Yeah . At this point, but sh- uh, thank you, thank you. This was like an unpaid advertisement. Yes, it was an unpaid ad, exactly. Yes I promise. But no, I had to get it off my chest. Um, uh, 'cause I've had that now for about three years, and I'm a massive nerd, as you can probably tell-

I'm kind of initially waxing lyrical about logistics and delivery. But yeah, tell me, tell me about that, even, like, from just a, a UX perspective. You mentioned, for example, that you're operating, like, you, you weren't hiring logistics people. Yeah . You can feel that. Yeah. Like, you can feel that in the way- Yeah the product looks. Yeah . And look, man, there's clues, uh, in our past to what we do today, right? Like, we started off as a consumer, uh, proposition. Mm. We built the best experience that you- That's a great point. That's a great point. Right? Yeah, yeah. Like, we built the best experience that you can have- That just- in getting Harrods delivered to you- Yes, yeah... within 45 minutes. That's like the, uh, very good. And so I think the difference in the philosophy in how we approached, um, building our services to the classic logistics company- Yeah... um, is that we started from the end customer experience backwards.

That's true, yeah. On- And whereas, whereas, uh, the, it's usually the other way around- It's the other way, yeah... with logistics companies. They build capacity and then they think about how to build that capacity. It's totally the reverse, yeah. Yeah. And I think that, and that uh, that continues to be our philosophy today.

Mm. And so, you know, we, you know, we experience design and people who kind of, uh, focus on, um, uh, UI, UX for consumer- Yeah... uh, uh, businesses is a core competency that we have internally and that we continue to invest in and we continue to build our business around. Um, so I mean, I, I, sorry if that's a, it's a bit of a short answer, but that was the answer.

No. You know? No, no, it makes total sense. Yeah. It's just something I just, I very much underappreciate. Again, I just hadn't connected, like, I mean, it makes total sense. Yeah. And that 's, that's, um- I can entirely square that now. Everything has become very, very clear now to me But also there's, there's like learnings for that.

I mean- Mm... you know, whether it's in this venture or another, it's like, you know, um, at, at the end of the day it's like when you, when you, when you build a product, you- sometimes the buyer of the product is not the person that you need to impress. Mm. Right? That's very true. Uh, ultimately Nike- Yeah... wants that consumer to feel like, "Wow, that was amazing."

Mm. You know? And so I mean, a lot of people end up obsessing about the dashboards and what it looks like for the, for the, for the person who's entering the orders or whatever. And, um, but, uh, at the end of the day, that's not really the KPI. No, yeah. You know? So, um, so yeah. And it was funny, uh, you mentioned, uh, Nike and Sun and Sand.

I was sitting with the, their the, the head of logistics for that company this morning- No way. Okay... having breakfast, so it's, yeah. Can send him this clip. Yeah, yeah. They'll renew forevermore. Yeah. Long-term partnership you'll ever have in your life. Is that part of the pitch then when you're going to these companies?

Is, is that like the customer experience? Ab- absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, uh, our competitors can claim that, but we have- Yeah... like it's, it's our DNA literally. It just can't be, uh... It's hard to compete with us on that front, and there's a lot that is coming on that front, too. You know, we, uh, we wanna be, um, enabling this D2C revolution.

Mm. Uh, and I call it revolution because ultimately we prefer to see a post-Amazon reality where, um, commerce is decentralized again- Yeah... and we're not all buying from the giant- Yes... supermarket, and we are supporting the artisanal mom-and-pop shop, uh, that is value-based, you know, and is, and builds a product because they're passionate about it and because they care about parts of, you know, uh, society and the environment, et cetera.

And so, you know, for us, we want to think about and spend time investing in ways to help these companies, uh, be able to attract, uh, customers through their own ordering channels- Mm... better than they would on third-party channels. And that's, that, you know, that... From the, from the very early days of starting Quiqup, even in London, you know- Yeah we were part of the Save The High Street movement. Yes. You know, we wanted to, um, uh, help against the, uh, the onslaught that Amazon was bringing to the marketplace. Mm. Um, so when we... And we, and, and that remains part of who we are. What are customer expectations around delivery times today? I feel like they've fluctuated so much.

Again, to your point, like, I feel like you were so incredibly early as far as... I found it mad. I think it was, it was a couple of weeks ago. It was my, my mother's birthday, and I was ordering an Apple Watch- Yeah... for her. And it, I was doing it through, through Amazon, uh, full disclosure. And I wanted to just

You know, my expectation is it'll be next day, and it, it was Amazon Now, and it was here in 15 minutes. I was like, "I have no need for that watch within 50 minutes." Yeah. I'm not gonna be able to give it to her un- until July. But, like, it does seem like the direction of travel now is very much towards, like, ultra high speed, quick delivery, and proliferation of, of dark stores and, like, forward deployed inventory- Yeah for some of these big guys like Newens, Amazons of the world. I like how you know all these terminologies, dude. Like, I don'I spend way too much time on Twitch Delivery and quick commerce at the moment has been my entire existence for the last two months, um- How come? Just with everything going on in a Saudi context with regard to your nana's or the word- Ah, yeah, yeah ninjas, Delivery Hero, Uber, Talabat. Yeah. This has been... I go to dream, I go to bed dreaming about, um ... like even my article coming out today, and this, this is probably dated till it's coming out, is all Deliveroo and sort of they're, they're now moving into dine ex- or, yeah, so, so obviously DoorDash acquired Seven Rooms, the reservations platform.

So again, they're, they're going into that, and that's, like, an interesting sort of to see how that, again, all to complement kind of, I suppose it's all attention economy at the end of the day. Yeah, yeah. Like, it's just another way to advertise. We'll get more users who we generally wouldn't have. Yeah. We'll get them into the app, retail media.

I suppose what Amazon and Noon, I mean, probably the highest margin for them now is advertising as much as anything else. The more attention that they command is the classic aggregator platform. Bring them in and then we'll monetize their attention. Yeah . You think it's for free, but it's not for free.

Um, we're making money even when you're not, um, buying anything. But I've no idea where, where I was going with that. No, no, I was just asking you- I completely gone off into tangents... why you're, why you're so into it. Oh, in terms of, yeah. Yeah. Um- But... uh, oh yeah, customer expectations. Oh, yeah. Yes, with, with regard to delivery.

And I was reading another crazy, um, I'm a big fan of The Ken, it's a, it's a publication in, in India, and they were talking about, like, ultra-high speed fast fashion now. Yeah. And there's this movement where you can order clothes that will arrive in two hours. Yeah. That's nuts. Yeah. Like, that's totally crazy, and there's this kind of subculture that's developed whereby the delivery drivers are so accustomed to people ordering, like, 10 different items, trying them on- Yeah and instantly returning them, that they'll actually just wait in the hallway for the people to... Because it's more efficient to actually- Yeah... bring the items back. Sort of the showroom becomes- Yeah... your own home, basically. It's, is that, is that the direction of travel? I mean, the thing is, like, the data is showing that it, it is.

Um, and I feel like 9 times out of 10 when you, when you give the option to get it, like, now, um- Get delivered... people will get it now. Yeah. I just, yeah, and I, I think that the, the way that that becomes sustainable over time is that the, those deliveries are, um, autonomous, right? They're un-un-unmanned and with, like, vehicles that- Yeah are not emitting- That is the only way, isn't it?... uh, carbon. Yeah- It's not, like ... because, uh, because ultimately we can't, we cannot, we cannot kind of end up supporting this, like, large economy of- Yeah... like drivers that are delivering individual items to people. I don't think it makes sense. And returning.

Yeah, and returning. How much, uh, how much is a return out of interest? How much does that cost? That's kind of- I think it's the same. It's the same. Like, I, uh, it's funny because, like, we, a lot of, um- People have no appreciation for deliveries. Yeah, yeah. But, but a lot of merchants- It's like ... they, they speak to us, they're like, "Well, what?

But you already took the delivery fee from us." I'm like, "But like, dude, like, it's the same- Don't just bring it back for nothing. It's the same thing. Yeah. How much do you expect? Yeah. Uh, so yeah, it costs, it costs the same, unless the driver is there for that moment, but then you're, the, the driver is spending- It's cost the, that time- Mm... which, which is cost, right? So yeah. Uh, but yeah, like, to answer your question, I, I think that that is the direction of travel. Yeah. Um, then, and that's okay. Like, I think we 've got to be able to be comfortable with the way the future is kind of progressing and commerce is progressing.

What our job is to make sure that that is sustainable- Yeah... equitable, makes sense for our planet, and doesn't destroy our societies. I think th- this, this to me remains the fundamental question. Mm. You know, I don't think that we, and, and sorry to kind of like take the di- the conversation there. No. I don't think that we should fuel consumerism for the sake of fuel- fueling consumerism- Yeah and just grow it- Mm-hmm... to kingdom come, right? Like, at the end of the day, um, the world needs to be able to, to hold that together. Like, uh, we, we cannot just deplete our planet and throw carbon into the air- Yeah... and just get people to feed until we blow this thing up. It's just not the way that we at least want to live in this world, you know?

Do you hold out much hope? Man, I do. Um, I think that what we're seeing in, in, um, you know, energy- Yeah... um, particularly because of the crisis, you know- Yeah ... like, uh, the, uh, solar is, is killing it at the moment. Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, AI is giving us this opportunity to, to design a better reality.

The question is, do we as humans have, uh, the will and- Wow... and, and the resolve to make that equitable and to make that something that is a positive force for all of us? Um, but, but am I optimistic? I am always optimistic and, you know- You have to be, don't you? Otherwise- That, that is my ... difficult, difficult to get up Well, yeah.

I mean, it's my nature and it's my job. And but I do see quite a lot around me that points in that direction despite the chaos that's happening and despite the wars and, and all of that. I just feel like we're in a period of dramatic change- Yeah... and that comes with a lot of friction. Mm. You know?

Okay. Well, if the future is this ultra-fast, high-speed delivery returns- Yeah... you mentioned autonomous delivery. Yeah. Where are you at with autonomous delivery? Look, I mean, from our perspective, th- those technologies are kind of progressing and moving, and there are companies that are building those- Yeah um, solutions. Just as we, uh, integrate, uh, into, uh, third-party warehouses and we integrate with the likes of Aramex and DHL for international shipping, et cetera, we will integrate with those providers that can, uh, um, uh, deliver these autonomous solutions. And in fact, we might be doing a bit of a trial this summer.

I can'Ooh. Yeah, yeah. I can't, uh, give more details than that in that space. Nice. So we don't-- we're not building a robotics company. Yeah. But, you know, once the technology's here, we will integrate and deploy that technology for sure, if we continue to do what we're doing with Last Mile at least.

Um, so yeah. Where, where do you think it makes the most sense? Like, obviously we have like the robo van, like kind of Nio have, have something interesting there, and then you have obviously the drone delivery and like- Yeah... Amazon and Alibaba have like large sort of doing things, and CargoX now obviously are gonna be handling things.

So it seems, um, from a logistics perspective, Tomáš is next, next chapter. Where, where do- Do these vehicles make the most sense as far as what Quiqup are doing? Are you like, "Drone delivery last mile? How do we solve the problem for the the doorstep?" Yeah. All well and good, robot van gets it to the front of the building, fantastic.

How is it gonna climb the stairs and, and get to the final point? Like, I think in India they've had- The, the idea of the walker, I think- Yeah... is the person that'll like camp out. Um, it's easier maybe in a gated community. This is the one designated person that'll bring it the, the final leg of the journey.

Yeah. How do you think we are gonna square that here? Look, I think it's gonna, it's definitely gonna be multimodal. Yeah. Uh, we, we always, um, whenever we're thinking about new technologies, there's like this fallacy as humans. We always think it's gonna be one thing. Yeah . It's never one thing.

It's always like a variety of different solutions- Yeah... that come together. Um, I think lockers are gonna play a role. I think the, you know, the- Yes, that's true. Yeah, yeah. So I think the, um, you know, the Boston Dynamics robot- Yes... like the dog. Yeah . I think solutions like that are gonna play a role as well.

Mm. And I do think like, you know, for a building to have a great building experience- Yes... you kind of want a dedicated, uh, person who's doing that, especially if we see e-commerce growing even further. You, you can't have- No... this constant movement in, in the elevators, even- Yeah, that's, that's actually a good point you know, that becomes the last mile of the building, you know? So- I haven't actually even thought of, yeah- Yeah... the, the strain that that potentially puts on, but it'It, it, man, it already does. Like, you know- It's gonna be so huge. Yeah, actually, you're, you're, you're opening my entire world now, even ... from like a food delivery and like, I mean, that puts such an enormous strain on like, for example, I live in Abu Dhabi, my building is like, the lifts are a disaster.

I take the stairs. Yeah. Thankfully, I live on the sixth floor. Yeah. But to your point, I'd actually love to just do, like, I'd love to stand at the end of an elevator one day for like two hours and just count the people and where they're coming from, 'cause I'd imagine probably 50% are probably delivery drivers- If, if you- probably more. Probably more, dude. Like, if you count like food plus e-commerce, I mean, you're, you're, the, the number goes wild, I mean- Actually- Yeah... buildings have never really been constructed with that probably in mind. Maybe they are now. Maybe, maybe this is the situation now- They have the service lift- now though... but, but the service lift is- It's overwhelmed. Oh, the, the service lift- Yeah, the ... in our building is like incapable of- Yeah, it cannot keep up... like dramatically overwhelmed. It, it's slower- Yeah... and it's like, uh, it, it's usually one for the whole building- Yeah, that's ... that has like seven lifts or eight lifts or whatever that's literally like 65 floors- Yeah... and then one service lift, and like it's generally actually res- uh, it's generally reserved for moving furniture and things, so we don't even actually get to use it for, for that purpose. Yeah. So it's, I guess that's really cool. But like, do you, do, do, would you also imagine like a pneumatic system as well, you know, like a, um, hydraulic system, right?

Yeah. Where you have these capsules that can go straight into an apartment. That's a good point. Yeah. And so would we then build a little bit differently to cater to that? And would you then kind of extrapolate that directly to a warehouse- Yeah... where you have these pipes and they can- I mean, yeah, yeah deliver through a pipe directly to a building? You know, have you watched The Fifth Element? I haven't. No, but you're, what I'm, what you're describing, I'm, I'm imagining Super Mario World now. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah, yeah. With all these different pipes and- Yeah ... the Mushroom Kingdom. Well, yeah, I mean, look, the, the Hyperloop is about- Yeah, that'to become a reality. Yeah. So why can't we do a miniaturized version of that, which is like basically plumbing, but for parcels? Oh. I don't know. Like it- No, it's ... that's just like- Yeah, yeah... um, one of the ideas that, like I, I've seen and I've had in my mind since I watched that film. That's so interesting. Um- I think it was also in I, I Am Legend, I think, where like Will Smith receives his, his, uh, uh- You're right leather black Converse- You're right... through one of those systems. You're right. Yeah. It does. It does. Yeah, you're spot on. Um- Uh, well, where else, where do we want to go next? We've, we've, we've gone, we've gone massively off it. Yeah. Let me try and see if I can bring us back somewhere- Yeah passenger train second. No worries, man. Um, uh, that, that, uh, I think are kind of great. Oh, yeah. Is, is there any, is there any particular sector that's actually pushing hardest on condensing and collapsing delivery times? I was reading, I think it was a research piece last week, I think it was from Red Sea in Saudi, and it, it really seems like beauty in particular is, is a sector that's really, like Nada Pharmacy, nice one, they're really trying to go, like, two hours to be- Mm like the de facto norm. Is there any particular sector pushing more so than others here to- I, I, no, I agree with beauty for sure. Mm. Uh, I would say what's ahead of beauty is probably, like, supplements, like wellness related products. Mm. Um, and bec- because, because the comparable for those products tend, tend to be generic brands- Yes uh, that are on, like, Amazon or- Mm... or Noon Minutes or whatever. So then they, those brands, the wellness brands, they feel that they need to deliver on the same promise, um- Interesting... because they're competing with those guys. Totally. And then it's, and then, and then it's beauty. Like, and this is, like, uh, a, a bit top of mind for me in terms of, like, what I'm seeing- Yeah, yeah in terms of my, uh, my engagement with our clients. Um, so yeah. But I mean, that is, I feel that, you know, um, the more adoption happens across, like, the pecking order of categories- Mm... it will just keep trickling down to everything eventually. And you know, like we- we've seen that with same-day delivery.

Yes. You know? Yeah. And now it's kind of moving from the same day into the four hour, from the four hour into the on demand. And then also into be able to sell on the various channels like Deliveroo and Insta Shop- Mm... et cetera. And so we're kind of, like, following that journey for our merchants and making sure we're there where they need to be, uh- Yeah on those channels. I was gonna ask, like, how proactive are you? Or is it client-led, like the client is like, "Hey, I need this in two hours," and you're like, "Okay." Or are you like, "Okay, we can see direction of travel here. We need to have a solution in place for this before people start asking." Yeah, I mean, this is the biggest question in, like, product management in my opinion- Yeah.

Yeah... I feel. Uh, it's a combination, man. Mm. Um, we are very client-led. Yes. Um, but sometimes, you know, you can take the signals before the signals are really there- Mm... and you need to make a bet. Yeah. Uh, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But I would say, you know, if I, if I look at our roadmap right now, and, and maybe this year is a little bit, like, particular because- The, the situation It's been a weird year, man.

Yeah, yeah. And the situation sort of like offered us a moment where we're like, "You know what? Let's clean up shop." So like if we look at our roadmap- Mm... there's a lot of us tidying up- Yeah, yeah... and doing some like foundational work. Um, it's taking about like 65% of our roadmap, whereas- Right... typically it's the other way around.

client-led requests- Mm... and, and needs take, take up 65% of our roadmap. We are very reactive though. I think- Yeah... I think it's one of the... Uh, for the, for the clients that we go after, they appreciate that a lot. they, they ask for something, it can be developed within like a month's time, or sometimes within a week's time, sometimes we even within the same week. Mm. Right? Depending on the complexity of the feature or the request. But, but we're we made it, we made it a, a big part of our modus operandi that like we respond to clients' needs very fast. And we always say yes- Yes... to some extent. Yeah. Exactly. It's like yes first, and then, uh- Yes, and then we'll figure out but, like, let's figure this thing out. Yeah. Yeah, let's see what we can do. Yeah. You mentioned D2C revolution. Do you really think that's the direction of travel? Do you think we're going to increasingly see brands want to retain this data more for them to take ownership, um, of the experience end to end than to just...

And, like, has the issue been that, like, obviously there's the attention factor, like uh, to Microsoft, um, like Amazon and Noon have, have done that well. You go there, um, but increasingly are, are brands like, "No, we can actually own this end to end." Like, and probably logistic's probably been an issue as far as that's concerned- 100% with like supply chain. Amazon is just so- That's why we are here... Amazon is just so bloody like, you know it- Yeah... you, they say it'll be there, it'll be there. Yeah. It's handled for you. You're, it's, you're kind of hands-off, and I suppose that's the, the gap that you're- Yeah... you're plugging and enabling that.

Yeah, I mean, like, for, for us our, uh, raison d'être is actually the fact that- Very nice. Is the fact that, like, we want, we want to democratize- Yeah... the kinds of solutions that large companies have by either having very sophisticated operations teams and working with large, um, uh, logistics players that bend to their will because of their size- Yeah and have these teams that are able to get exactly what they need in, in an efficient way. Um, so that or Amazon as a, as Yeah... as an infrastructure. And so for, for us it's like we want to make, uh, having a team and having ac- an access to the infrastructure is something that is inherent in the way that we deliver our services.

um, so, you know, one of the things that we wanna do in terms of, um, you know, going beyond the logistics service delivery side of things- Mm... is support in helping you make better decisions in your business. So whatever that operations team does for you in terms of deciding, you know, how much inventory to allocate per country- Yeah um, how, what, what is the right time to purchase said inventory, what is the right amount per SKU, et cetera, how do you best design your, your end customer experience down to the post-purchase experience and the returns, et cetera. So- Yeah... all of, all of that stuff we wanna surface to you and provide you with prompts to make better decisions, um, so that we're solving for that operational, um, operation team, team bit, and then, and then, um, provide access to, um, a regional- Yeah and then eventually global logistics solution with every part of the value chain in one place, so that you can get the Amazon-like experience end to- Yes... end to end. Um- Is that consultant- is that kind of an AI play? Yeah, yeah. That consultancy that's... Okay. Yeah, so- That's where you see... that's, so, you know, we're, we're, we're, we're starting to build that sort of context layer within, within the company.

We're consuming a lot of data right now- Mm... and starting to build that, uh, intelligence, and we'll start to surface bits and pieces of those, uh, decision prompts to our clients- Yes... uh, and eventually cr- uh, provide them with sort of like an operating system to manage their business, you know? Mm. Uh, we wanna, you know, where Shopify is, um, is one channel- Yeah That helps you sell Mm-hmm You're ultimately selling on various channels, and you're needing, you're needing to make decisions on how to price, where to sell, what ti- what, at what point, and how do you understand your unit cost- Mm-hmm across every single channel- It's so fragmented, yeah... across every single country. Yeah, it's super fragmented. And so, um, ultimately, we want to get you to make sense of all of that. Mm. Um, and then start kind of prompting those decisions to you as if we're, like, the best operations team you can ever have.

Mm. And we'll do that through, like, an agentic, uh, architecture. Um, so, so there's that. Yes. And to answer the second part of your question, um, yeah, I do believe that D2S- D2C revolution will happen because, you know, I could see us, uh, as humanity changing our behavior, and you can even see clues in that in the way that we consume media, you know?

Mm-hmm. You and I are here talking- Absolutely. Good question... we are, like, an independent- Yeah ... uh, media outlet. People are gravitating to, to that, and they're gravitating to micro-influencers. Mm-hmm. And, and with that comes a behavior of purchase that is very different to buying from a supermarket.

Yeah, it's foolish to think that it's going to remain with institutional, in- being institutionalized when everywhere else it's, it'Especially when it's becoming so accessible- Yes, yes... and democratized, right? And that's a future I prefer, I think. Mm-hmm. I hope you do, too. No, absolutely, 100%. And I... It kind of leads me to one of the things, again, I've been, I've been thinking about a lot recently and, and researching is live shopping, um, and live stream shopping.

Yeah. Obviously huge in, in a Chinese context. Hasn't really taken off in the West to the same extent, but we're starting to slowly- See, yeah... see- Yeah... things stirring here in this- Yeah... part of the world. You've Trophy. I think you've- Yeah... Seen as well, Barani platform. Do you think... First of all, what's your perspective, or what do you think about li- live, um, or live shopping yourself?

And do you think there is a potential for that to become, I don't know, a meaningful slice of the pie for, for Quiqup, maybe, you know, at some point further down the line? Look, um, I don't have a view yet on- Mm... whether we will provide Like dedicated solutions for that Yes And what does that exactly mean?

Do we provide space and like- Mm... um, you know, a studio or whatever? Like- Yes... I don't know yet. But I think that, like, it's, it's nothing new, man. Like, I, I remember- No, it's not... I was, like, a, a kid, uh, in Beirut watching, it was called Marook or TV Shopping or whatever. Oh, yeah. So, I mean- Right? It's always been there like, like QVC, like, I mean- Yeah... this has been, yes, exactly. I mean, we- Yeah... we're- So I believe in the format. Yes. Yeah. I uh, I just, I just don't know if, if it fits what we're doing, you know? Yes, yes. Um, and it might because, because ultimately you might have some of those brands that we service today that want to open that up as a, as another channel, and then we might be informed- Yeah by, by that motion. Yes. It's just that, yeah, cur- currently, uh, currently we don't see that yet. Mm-hmm. But I, I love that trend. It's quite, it's, it'I mean, it's all contingent on scale, I suppose, at the end of the day as well. Like, I mean, yes, the person sending, like, you know, a couple of collectibles here and there semi-regularly isn'Yeah the same as, you know, I don't know, like someone on TikTok Shop doing like... There was one example I was reading of where someone did like, like $500 million in like a day in terms of- Wow... like one of the biggest... And I was like, this is just some unfathomable, um- Yes... amounts of revenue and obviously inventory as well then that, that needs to be shipped.

We should build that, man. I was gonna, I was gonna say, like, yeah. What, what can we sell to do it like this? I, genuinely, yes. I'm, my God. I, I was thinking of it. There was a, uh, 'cause I, I had a conversation recently with, with Edward from, or Ed from Trophy. I came away from it going, "God, it's very early. Maybe I could, maybe I could," you know, throw my hat at that, and I was like, I just couldn't.

I was like, I can't imagine what on earth they would actually even be selling. But it's interesting because there definitely is, like Snapchat is definitely I think a, a regional phenomenon. I think like Snapchat has maybe died a death elsewhere in the world, but it's still so massive in the UAE. Yeah.

It's so massive in a Saudi context. So I think their micro-influencers in particular are, are so huge here that I can see it taking off. But anyway, we're, we're- But what if, what if, what if you end up, uh, launching some, some brand, you yourself? Yeah . And, but with, uh, maybe there's like a, a, an API that YouTube- Hmm has for your own- That's a great point... where, where it's like we're having this podcast and you put a pr- uh, product on the table- The model... and yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And then boom, it's immediately sold- It's a good point... in that, in that moment. Yeah. I, yeah, I wonder, I wonder if it can go in that direction.

That becomes quite powerful because then- Yeah, seamlessly kind of woven in as opposed to it being the explicit, as you said- Exactly... raison d'être for being on camera, and that it's more just- Exactly, and you have a following ... an adjacent kind of... et cetera, so. Hmm, interesting. We'll work on it. We just gave Google some ideas.

We're gonna cut that one out. We're gonna cut that. Yeah. We're gonna save that for, for ourselves. Um, uh, Saudi, you're, you're spending more time, uh- Yeah... there now as, as well. I'm, I'm curious actually just in terms of cross-border kind of flows between, uh, do you see more Saudi brands selling to the UAE or do you see UAE brands, brands selling to Saudi?

From my vantage point, I'm seeing more UAE brands selling into Saudi Into Saudi. I think that probably the data is kind of starting to tell a different story now- Mm... gradually. Yeah. Um, it has been historically that UAE brands sell into Saudi and that the UAE is a great, uh- Yes... brand development factory.

Mm-hmm. Right? Uh, um, but, but I 'm not sure, like, how long that- That holds... that holds because of the sheer size of the Saudi market and the strength of, uh, the market as well. Um, from our perspective, you know, we're, we're not, you know, we are looking to to solve for brands that wanna be regional. Yeah.

We're not necessarily trying to say we wanna win the UAE market- Yes... or we wanna win the Saudi market, and we're gonna go head-to-head with all the local competitors there. We are looking for those specific brands that want to have a multi-country operation- Mm-hmm... and want a seamless solution for that. Um, and also are looking for, like, an end-to-end service across int- their entire logistics value chain and want that kind of operation support.

Yes. So, so it's like if a, you know, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're targeting a very specific audience. Yeah. And that audience exists in those countries, and it exists in countries- Yes... outside of the region that are looking to enter the region. Mm. And those are the types of brands we tend to want to service, and that's where we'll compete- Mm to the bone. Yes. No I ab- I absolutely love that. Yeah. Um, what, what else do we have to... Geez, we're covering nearly everything, Bas. I'm running, running out of, uh- I've been efficient. You've been extremely... Oh, I did want to ask, uh, it seems like the direction of travel for every platform at some point is that they need to, uh, incorpo- incorporate some sort of embedded embedded finance solution- Finance solution, yeah because it's this, this cheap sort of layer- Yeah... that you can add on top of- Yeah... the entire ride. We were talking about this on Monday, yeah. Were you actually? Okay. Yeah, yeah. is that something that you're- Look, we have a solution in place. Okay. Just a, like we, we te- and we tested it. Sure. Um, it doesn't seem to be that we're, like, the obvious place where our, our clients look for that.

Mm. Um, and you know, there are some pretty competitive solutions out there. Yeah. We, we could act as a platform that just introduces and, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll take Plug in... yeah, we, we plug in one of the existing solutions. Mm. But we're, we're, honestly, we're just more interested in becoming the, you know, just, uh, at the risk of using an overused terminology by now- Yeah the operating system for those brands, right? Like, um, where it's your decisions, your management of your business, your, your, uh, the way that you kind of think about expansion, the way that you think about your different markets- Mm... um, the way that you understand your costs, uh, and you allocate your resources.

That's where we're very... And most importantly, sorry to have forgotten that, your end customer experience. Like that, that's our game. Yeah. We wanna play there, and where there's so much to do there, that perhaps the, the financing bit is lucrative, but it's a bit of a distraction, and it's not obvious- On a core competency- where, where, yeah... in terms of what you're, yeah. Yeah, exactly. If you're not overtly excited about it, then, I mean, you know, what's, is it really something that you're going to double down on? Has your leadership style changed over time? Absolutely, man. So, so much. Like, um, 12 years of doing this, going through everything that we've gone through.

Um, yeah. I don't know how to give you, like, an, something meaningful here in a, uh... Let me think about this for a second. Okay. Look, I 've always led from the heart. Yeah. That's always been, that's always been the case, and I think that, like, in the early days, I was super intuition-led. Uh, and then things got difficult- Of course and then I became overly analytical to the extent of, like, um, a kind of analysis paralysis. Yes. And I feel like that was, like, a bit of a counter-reaction, uh, to how things were before and, you know, that, that massive, um, uh, moment of- Mm... realizing that this whole thing in the UK that- Yeah... we spent so much money on didn't work, and we had to start over.

You're gonna overcorrect always in that situation, aren't you? You overcorrect and kind of come- Yeah... come back. So now it's, like, a, a, uh, blending a bit of both. I think that, like, um, I, I learned to trust, trust people more- Mm... um, over time. Um, but, but, uh, but in a, but I learned to also, uh, build the practices in place for that trust to, uh, be mutual and to be in the right place.

Where- whereas, you know, uh, I was, um, I, I was, um, sort of in a way trusting people, but, uh, in the early days, but not, um, but not necessarily giving them the ability to, to build and be creative and, and- Fully remunerative. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh, is... Yeah, I would, I, I would not ha- not allow decisions to happen without being involved, and now I do quite a lot.

Um, I think that, like, you know, um, we've I've managed to find a way to, um, to get people to be more creative and, um, and to enjoy doing that. Mm. And it's something that I that I had to learn- Yeah... quite, quite a lot. It was... I, I used to force that a lot in the early days. Um, and now it sort of, like, happens naturally, and I, and I, and now the, the equation, the equation has always been that, um- I'm the hype man.

Mm-hmm. I'm the guy that gets people excited about things, et cetera. And now I'm, like, surprised by so many different people in the organization that get me excited about things- Yes... and pull me into something. And I guess it's just the subtlety of how kind of I communicate and how I approach, um, uh, these situations and, and the way that I kind of done a lot of these things by example, but without trying to tell people- Mm you need to do this. And, um, and I think that, that maybe one of the, one of the, the other things is that I've become a lot more honest, uh, and, um, aligned with myself and who I am in, in every situation. Mm. Whereas I believe, you know, when I first started and there was... I was younger, and there was this, like, image of a leader that I was- Yes

I was basically trying to play. Uh, and it was, you know, as much as I was always kind of, um, uh, truthful- Yeah... uh, and, and kind of authentic, but I wasn't really aligned with myself fully. Mm. Um, you know, and not, not now. It, that- that's, it's not, it obviously continues to be a work in progress- Yeah but it's much more there than it ever was. And I think that that's one of the most liberating things because, um, because it, it allows me to ex- express more, uh, meaningfully and thoroughly. Um, and it also allows people to be more at ease and for them to do the same. Right. Right. Yeah. You know, and I, uh, and I, I

Yeah. Those are the kind of things that I've kind of learned over time, I guess. I was gonna say- Yeah... is it just a time thing with those? Is it something that you can actively go out and learn, or is it just you're gonna have to experience things and hopefully, you know, you, you figure it out? Like, how, um, like steadfast can you be in terms of going to do that?

Or is it just something that happens? You're gonna make mistakes. Uh- Can you be deliberate about it? Yeah. Like, it's, uh, it's a very good question, by the way. Look, I think that I have gone through quite a lot with this story. Um, and re-re-resilience requires You can either brute force it Mm You know? But brute force exhausts you.

After a few years, you break. Yeah. It doesn't work. You burn out, yeah. And so the equation goes from, like, brute force, just gotta do this, to then, um, deep introspection and work. Um, and that's like Yes It's like a whole can of worms. No. Um, but that's, that's where the beauty is, man. Um, uh, speaking to a friend of mine yesterday, very wise guy, um, actually founder, uh, ex-founder of Mamo Pay.

He's like- Right... um, a guy called Asim. Mm. And he says some- He quotes me. He's like, um, you know, "Quiet the mind and lean into, uh, your compassion, your emotion." Mm. "And everything will, will kind of line up." And, and that, you know, it's a very, uh, simple statement- Yep... but, like, that carries an insane amount of weight- Yeah and an awareness to be able to, uh, deliver in that way. You know, it's, uh, I think this ability to see yourself full- fully for who you are, um, you can be deliberate about doing the work to get you there. Mm. And when you can sit within that and be in alignment with that in the way that you, um, uh, exist- Yes in the world, then that can come through in everything that you do- Things are gonna... Uh, including the, your leadership style. Sorry to have gone there. It's great. No, it's a great answer. Like, where, where do you think that resilience comes from with yourself? Because, I mean, you would've probably been forgiven for throwing in the towel, like, around that time Uber Eats comes in.

And, like, we've seen so many players in, in the space, especially if we just talk about quick commerce specifically, that are, like, exploded and just crashed and burned thereafter. But, you know, you did the hard thing multiple times. Yeah. Where does that come from? Um, God, man, like, shall I give you, like, a podcast appropriate answer or?

Oh, give me, give me the real answer. No, give me the, give me the real answer. Fuck- Yeah... fuck the podcast answer. Yeah. Look, man, I think, um, I grew up in Lebanon. I think that has a lot to do with, um, the, the type of person that I am. Yeah. The country, you know, is known to be, like, a resilient people, et cetera.

I think that that has, definitely has some role in the equation. Um, my, uh, my family is pure love. I think I've been blessed with parents that have given me an endless well of that. Mm. And I think that then in difficult moments, that reservoir is what you have. You can draw on that. You know, and you draw on that.

And I think that the, you know, if there's something to give to all parents over the world, it's, like, give your children love because they're gonna, they're gonna be able to do great things hopefully. Not, I'm not self-congratulating here. No, no. It's just like that's, that's my experience. Yeah. Um- And so there's that.

My father, so 2019, um, when we had to make the decision of shutting down London and moving to the UAE, um, he found out literally within a month's time of me having to make that hard decision, um, he found out that, you know, he had, like, a major issue within his family business. One of the brothers betrayed him massively, massively.

It was, like, a huge story. Um, and, uh, he, you know, he has a history, um, throughout time of stories that I have listened to growing up of basically starting a business, getting com- completely obliterated by bombs and kind of civil war and whatever, um, you know, and, and then starting over from the rubble and whatever was left.

So just a quick story. We had a-- My father had... and his brothers built a fast food, um, uh, restaurant, one of the first in, in Beirut. Uh, got obliterated. Some of the machines that survived were ones that, um, uh, mixed the dough to make the bread of the buns. Yeah. They used that to start a bread manufacturing business.

It's one, one of the largest now in, in Lebanon, that they were delivering under, under the, the bombs, right? Like, when the local bakeries would close because they were, they were too worried about how intense the situation was. So I grew up to those stories, and then there was this moment when, when in 2019, this, like, perfect alignment of what I was ab- just about to go through and what he had found out.

Right. And I could look-- I would look towards him and, you know, he's... There was no version of reality where he was not gonna come out on top in that situation. Mm. It took him about, uh, seven years to date to kind of like, um, kind of get there. Get it back, yeah. And, and it was like a constant source of inspiration for me to look at this man who, you know, that's the time in his life where he was meant to relax.

He was just, like, on it, man. He was ready to go to war fully and, and fight for what he believed in. And, and it just, uh, it was just became a, like, this metaphor for me. And, uh, and, and yeah. I mean, that's how I would answer that question. How do you galvanize others then around you to similarly kind of buy into that?

Because it's a, it's a big lift. Like, how do you keep morale high in that context?

By being truthful- Mm... I think, uh, about where you stand, uh, the good and the bad and it was like mainly that conversation was between me and my co-founders. You know, there was a moment when I just decided, okay, I'm just gonna fully lean into, "Guys, this sucks." Yeah. You know, this really sucks. Not quite sugarcoating it, I think.

Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, and uh, and we stayed clo- Man, there was a time we moved here to Dubai, we were um, kid you not, there was the four co-founders and like two other team members. We were in like a two-bedroom apartment that was tiny. Oh, wow. Like in, in a, what was, I think it's called, um- There's like the Two Seasons building on the, near Bashundhara, facing it- Oh, yeah the one facing it. There's like, uh, this... I forgot the name. Anyway, so we were in this like tiny apartment and, and... But we were having such a, such a, such a fun time, you know? We, uh, we, we kept the jokes going. We kept, uh, you know, we kept who we are. And, um, and, uh, and we all felt this, uh, huge sense of duty towards taking the more difficult path.

Mm. You know? Um, it's gonna be a better story to tell. I'm here to tell it. No, it's very true. Do, like, do you think that's also informed your hiring philosophy when you're looking for people, like in terms of qualities or characteristics within potential people who are going to, to join Quiqup? Is that

It's obviously something difficult to screen for- Yeah... as well at the same time, but is that like one of the, the core kind of cultural values? Yeah. I mean, look, I think, uh, if I, if I boil it down, like there's the values, okay? And, and obviously those are super important. Um, but if I boil it down to like one thing, it's like when I'm sitting in front of, of, uh, someone we're going to hire- Mm and I'm gonna spend time speaking mostly to them as people, not about the job- Yeah... or their skills, and if I can't during like 20 minutes, uh, get to the essence of who you are- Mm... and it's like clear to me- Yeah... you know, if I don't get a glimpse of that, you- It's not... we're, we're not, we're not, we're not gonna be together, like, we're not gonna work together.

Mm. I think, and I think that, you know, when, when we're able to find people who are willing to reveal that and like show a vulnerability within that as well, um, then that's someone that, like, you know, you can have real conversation with. We can, we can go to war together, you know? And, and so that's, that's, that's how I've kind of, uh, taken it.

And every time I've deviated from that, it's not worked out, you know? Um- It's a pretty good litmus test then- Yeah, yeah... isn't it, for yourself? Do you still enjoy it as much as you used to? Yeah, man. Uh, I think, uh- You're such an energy. Yeah. So refreshing. Like sometimes you interview founders, they're just so stressed to the point where they just can't, like, hide it.

Yeah. It's like it just comes out. But like you're... It's infectious. Sitting, sitting across from you, it's, it's, it's really, really refreshing, I have to say. Thank you. Thank you, dude. Um, that's all we have, man. Mm. Like, you know, I think, I think people, and I'm, I'm also guilty of that for a big part of this journey, is like we get so consumed- Yeah by this thing, we forget that- Yeah... like we're just also living a life, and it'Yeah... like this is all just the fabrication of how we decided- Yes... we're gonna exist on this planet. Yeah. It's like- Yeah. It's all a construct, man. Does it really matter, right? So like, so all we have is excitement, like- Yeah... and I, yeah, um, it, it just, the love for it evolves- Yes you know? From the, you know, from the creation in the beginning and, and going into the details- Mm... and building all that stuff to then the struggle and, like, fighting and getting, getting through to making it work again. And, and I think that like my... There's like many different chapters that I'm not referring to right now, but like, I think where I am now with it is just like being able to- Think about this thing as like a, a, an exchange of people and en- energy and creation, and how do we, how can we orchestrate the best setup to make something happen with people?

Mm. And I think that that for me is the most exciting thing. And, you know, in, in the age of AI, I think, I think that will be the most important thing. Yes. Yeah. You know, how can you get a bunch of people together that are very high on empathy and EQ and taste, and be able to communicate together in such a great way, and to be able to communicate with the outside world and grab information from there in the best way?

Um, I think that's, that's a successful model in an AI world because, you know, as we are now all building our contacts, graphs, and our second- Yes... brains and, and middle management decisions are kind of be shifted towards there- Cognitive offloads and where, yes... yeah, like what are we doing? Mm. You know, we are, we are engaging.

Very good at, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, um, so yeah. This has been incredibly good fun. I, I've done- Likewise... a lot of these but, uh, this is honestly the most enjoyable one that I've done full stop. So thank you very, very much.

Thanks, dude. Honestly, that means a lot., I have to thank you for opening up the space and asking those questions because those... Like, I, like, I knew where you were, you were going with that.

Yeah, yeah. And it's, and it's cool that you take that risk and open up this, uh, space for us to do this. Of course. Thank you so much, man. No. Really. Really appreciate it. This was-