Hannah and Her Sisters FINAL === [00:00:00] Claire Fisher: Hello and welcome to Carried Far, far Away where we are watching and reading everything that Carrie Fisher did in her short life and storied career. I'm Claire Fisher. Katie Marinello: I'm Katie Marella. Claire Fisher: And today we are watching Hannah and her sisters. As sisters. Yes, there are only two of us though. No additional sisters. Thank the Lord. It's true. As much drama as we have in our lives. We have so many cousins, so many, Katie Marinello: but nothing that we have done or any of our family members have done could be nearly as exhausting as this movie was. Claire Fisher: It was a lot. Katie Marinello: It was. It was. Claire Fisher: would you like to do the 54 second recap? You could gimme a full hour and 47 minutes and I wouldn't be able to explain it, but I'll do the best I can. It is quite the convoluted plot. Are you ready to time me? Sure, go ahead. Katie Marinello: Carrie Fisher plays April, an aspiring actress who is friends with Holly. Holly is one of the three sisters in an artistically inclined, but not necessarily successful family. April and Holly have decided to start a catering company [00:01:00] together to make money while they look for success on stage. At one of their events, they made a man named David who is an architect. After spending the night rioting around with David looking at architecture, he takes Holly on a date to the opera. After auditioning to against one another for a role, April tells Holly that David has asked her to go to the opera. This unfortunately ends their friendship and their catering company. We never see April again, but Holly and her sisters go on to have lots of complicated, annoying self-important misadventures that occur mostly in their heads. Holly eventually ends up marrying Mickey, her sister's ex-husband, and reveals in the final scene that she is pregnant. Claire Fisher: That is simultaneously perfectly timed and not actually a recap of the movie. Katie Marinello: No, not even a little bit, but we've agreed. Over the past three months, six months, that we will focus it around Carrie Fisher as much as possible, and she's in this movie for approximately 54 seconds. Claire Fisher: She's only in a couple of scenes. Yeah. So that's one arc. This movie could really be divided up into like three or four different movies. Katie Marinello: Well, both, so Wikipedia [00:02:00] does that. It breaks it down into arcs. And then when I asked Chu PT to write me a summary, because this movie is really difficult to summarize, they also broke it down by character Arc, and then I said, can you do it in chronological order? And then they just gave me the character arcs with numbers next to them. Claire Fisher: So nobody really knows how to describe this movie. Yeah, yeah. Katie Marinello: So, all right. Tell me about the times. Claire Fisher: All right, so this was released March 14th, 1986. For reference, the number one movie in America was Gung Ho, directed by Ron Ron Howard, starring Michael Keaton. Have you ever heard of this movie? Katie Marinello: No, but I've heard of Ron Howard and Michael Keaton. Claire Fisher: It is a movie about the takeover of an American car plant by a Japanese corporation. Katie Marinello: Okay, so what were the anxieties of the time? Claire Fisher: Yeah, right. Interestingly, it was released under a different title in some international markets because somebody pointed out that Gungho is a Chinese. Phrase, not a Japanese one. Katie Marinello: Oh, no. Claire Fisher: So the anti-Asian racism was there. Katie Marinello: I guess I never really thought about Gungho as being any language. I thought it [00:03:00] just meant that you were enthusiastic. Claire Fisher: Well, like, uh, chop. Chop. And longtime no Sea gungho sort of entered English as people making fun of the way Chinese immigrants spoke. Katie Marinello: Wow, I have learned something new. Luckily, gungho is not something I say that often. Claire Fisher: Well, and it's not a movie you've ever seen right or heard of The week before, Hannah and her sisters came out, number one was Pretty in Pink, which at least still has a fandom. Katie Marinello: Okay. Claire Fisher: And the number one movie of the year would go on to be Top Gun. Mm-hmm. Released two months later. Mm-hmm. So just thinking about, you know. Where we were at in the Reagan era, macho jingoistic storytelling style. Mm-hmm. in terms of news stories going on in March of 1986, it appears to have been a little bit slow. On March 9th, NASA announced the recovery of the remains of the challenger astronauts. The challenger had exploded five weeks earlier on January 28th. And of course April, 1986 would be remembered forever for the Chernobyl disaster, but dear, so it was like kind of a calm period between disasters, kind of like that. So, [00:04:00] um, into that world there came a movie that's kind of just about people not being able to get out of their own way. Katie Marinello: Yes. And as I understand it, that is what most Woody Allen movies are about. Claire Fisher: which brings us to the elephant in the room. Katie Marinello: Yes. So this is a Woody Allen movie, written and directed by him. Why don't I start by doing Mia Pharaoh and Woody Allen. Their bios, and then we'll go into the different character arcs. Sound good? Claire Fisher: Yeah, sounds good. Katie Marinello: All right. So Mia Pharaoh first gained notice for her role as Alison Mackenzie in in the television soap opera Peyton Place, and then came to wide recognition as Rosemary in Rosemary's Baby directed by. Claire Fisher: Groman Polanski. Katie Marinello: Yeah, we're just gonna do problematic men Bingo in this episode. She has been in 13 Woody Allen movies between 1982 and 1990. Unfortunately, she may be as well known for her personal life as for her acting, she was in a relationship with Woody Allen from 1980 and 1992, and I'll talk about [00:05:00] that a little bit more later. But she was also briefly married to Frank Sinatra. 1966 to 1967 when she was 21 and he was 50, so problematic man, check. , She then married conductor and composer Andre Previn in 1970. She was 25 and he was 41. She has 14 children, four biological and 10 adopted, and several of them make cameos in this movie, including Woody Allen's future wife, Sunni previn. Moses Farrow, Daisy Previn, and Fletcher Previn. Okay. Woody. Woody Allen. Do you know what Woody Allen's, birth name is? I did not know this. Allen Stewart Coburg. He got his start by writing jokes and selling them to Broadway writers, which I was not aware was a thing you could do. Then he wrote for television. Then he became a standup comedian. He has written at least 50 movies. Honestly, it was hard to find a exact count, so I actually counted myself and I counted 55, the [00:06:00] majority of which he did direct himself after being disappointed. By the directions of his first. So he let somebody else direct his first film. He didn't like it, so he's directed every one since then that he wrote o other than one. But he has appeared as an actor or as a cameo in other people's movies as well. He changed his name to Haywood Allen at age 17 legally, and then began calling himself Woody. According to him, his first published joke read, Woody Allen says he ate at a restaurant that had OPS prices. Over people's salaries. And he has been nominated for best writing, at the Oscars more than any. Anyone else with 16 nominations? He won for this one. Several people won for this one. Claire Fisher: Yeah. Uh, it was best original screenplay for him. Best supporting Actor for Michael Kane and best supporting actress for Diane Weist. Mm-hmm. Katie Marinello: So now we'll talk about the elephant in the room. When he and Mia Pharaoh met in 1979, she had seven children. During the relationship, she [00:07:00] wanted to have another kid. He agreed to have another kid if he didn't have to parent it. Problematic check. But she ended up adopting Dylan Farrow. Woody didn't adopt her, but did take on a parental role towards her. And then Mia gave birth to their only biological child together. Satchel Ronan Farrow, who is now a well-known journalist. According to Woody in 1987 is when their romantic re relationship ended, but they remained both working partners and social partners like going out to parties and red carpets and that sort of thing. In 1991, Pharaoh wanted to adopt another child, and Alan agreed, but only if she would also let him adopt Dylan and Moses. Their relationship officially ended in January, 1992 when Pharaoh discovered naked photos of her then 21-year-old adopted daughter SUNY Previn in Woody Allen's home allen claimed that they had started their affair only two weeks prior. In August, 1992, he sat down for an interview with Time Magazine and said, I'm not her father or her stepfather. Alan and Faroh never shared a home. [00:08:00] They lived on opposite sides of Central Park. And he said he's never had a family dinner with Sunni, et cetera, et cetera. He later that year issued a statement saying they were in love and they got married in 1997 and have two adopted children together. Claire Fisher: Okay, well, uh, strange, but still technically legal. Right. Since he was right. Not great, but he was never married to her mother and he never adopted her. Right, right. Katie Marinello: Exactly. In August of 1992, so that same year, right. So January, she discovers these pictures of Sunni August of that year. She's out shopping with her sister, in Connecticut where they have a, summer home. Um, that's when the alleged incident between Woody Allen and his daughter Dylan. Takes place. It was witnessed by several childcare workers at Mia's home. One of them told Mia, who then accused Woody after speaking with Dylan. I'm not gonna go into details, but the details came out during their subsequent custody battle. When Woody was seeking full custody of Moses, satchel and Dylan. He ended up not getting [00:09:00] that. Several investigations into the claims came back with various conclusions. A prosecutor ultimately decided not to prosecute despite saying he had probable cause. Um, he didn't wanna put Dylan through that. Dylan made public statements starting in 2013. She's called out actors who are still willing to work with Woody. Um, Ronan and Mia have also stayed on the, he did it side of things. , There was a documentary a couple years back, where actually Dylan spoke with that prosecutor who decided not to. Prosecute And he said to her, I don't want you to think it's because I didn't believe you. But Moses has stood by his father and defended him. And SUNY and Moses have both made allegations of extreme physical abuse by Mia Pharaoh. So that is something that I think doesn't get brought up a lot. And I do think it's notable that her children of color seem to have had a different experience. With her than her biological and, white adopted [00:10:00] children, and two of her adopted children, , did die of of a drug overdose and one from suicide. So it's a mess. And the fact that Woody Allen continually writes movies about young women falling for much older men doesn't help his case, in my opinion. Claire Fisher: Right. And, writing movies about women who are attracted to older men is not illegal. Uh, obviously Mia Pharaoh was attracted to older men. She was married to two men who were much older than her. We bring this up because while we are not a True Crime podcast, it can be difficult to discuss a movie like this, which was written by and based on. People that, Woody Allen knew. Mm-hmm. Especially based on Mia Faroh. Hannah is Mia Faroh. Mm-hmm. So when you're talking about a movie that draws from life and in real life, it turns out that there were criminal allegations involved in this relationship. Um, that's something we need to acknowledge mm-hmm. Before we can dig into what this is like as a film. Right. And ultimately he has never been [00:11:00] convicted of anything. But we also know that the prosecution rate for sexual assault is like 2%. The fact that it was witnessed by people who did everything to gain his big accusation was that Mia was going to, was using it to get back at him for her affair. But these child work care workers had no power in the situation, and at least three of them testified in the custody vow. Right? And I mean, his daughter Dylan, has stuck to her story now that there's really nothing left to be gained from it except her own. Vindication. Right, right. So it's, I we're not gonna say that false allegations have never happened, especially in the case of, you know, child custody debates. Absolutely. Disputes. , However, we, I mean, we're not really equipped to weigh in on the likelihood that, any of this is true or not true. We can only comment on what we read in the papers. Yeah. And one could argue that she probably could have gotten custody based on the fact that he was marrying her 21-year-old daughter. And then there's, you know, allegations against her as well. So it's really hard to know what's what. So I don't think either of them seem like particularly healthy people. I [00:12:00] don't know. I believe Dylan, uh, we believe women. Yes. And we believe Sunni too. When she says that her mother may have abused her. That is certainly a possibility. And with the note that everything I just discussed happened several years after this movie. Oh yes. But it is, I mean, like we said, this movie is based on Mia Farrow. Mm-hmm. It was filmed in her apartment while she and her children were living in that apartment. Right. Yeah. And she was one of seven, I'm not sure how many sisters she had, but she was one of seven children. Yeah. So that's a lot to be the same stable one amongst. Yeah. So yes, the stable one. Woody Allen said he wrote this movie, Hannah and her Sisters, because he admired how stable. Mia Pharaoh's relationships were how she had a career, children, parents, siblings. He thought it would be interesting to explore what being the stable one was like. Mm-hmm. Mia Faroh for her part would later write, that this was quote, the first time I criticized one of his scripts. She actually said, quote, it was my mother's stunned children reaction to the script. That enabled me to see how he had taken [00:13:00] many of the personal circumstances and themes of our lives, and it seemed had just distorted them into cartoonish characterizations. so Woody Allen, like a lot of writers before him, and more writers that will exist before the end of the world, treats everything he sees as grist for his, art. Mm-hmm. And if you were friends with him or in a romantic relationship with him or met him once on the street, you will show up in one of his movies. And you know, her mother just by being insulted was in this movie. Yeah, I know. And if you look at her Mother's Wikipedia page. Which of course I did. It's much shorter. So it's not as robust as me is. So if you think about having a more successful daughter, right? The mother character in this movie says, thank God we had a talented daughter, uh, the mother who is MO Sullivan. I will say dad defends her. Uh, 'cause apparently our grandpa was a massive fan of Mino Sullivan. Okay. So yeah, so we like to say separate art from artists, you know, not everything is, biographical, but this one is. Yeah. Um, and then he wrote that into the script, right? Having the family have a [00:14:00] terrible reaction to one of the characters writing about them in their first script. Yeah. I mean they definitely were playing with the, the meta fiction of it all. Katie Marinello: But she did agree eventually to be in the movie. Claire Fisher: yeah. Katie Marinello: He himself will play exactly one character in the entire 56 movies. He plays himself Yes. In everything he does. So yes, we're going through Arc by Arc, um, since this is a Kerry Fisher podcast, we're gonna start with Holly's Ark. So I will say that this movie takes place over two years. Starts with Thanksgiving. There's a Thanksgiving at the midpoint, and then there's a Thanksgiving at the end. So that's when all the characters are in the same room. General, mostly. Except notably for Woody Allen, who's not in the first like, 20 minutes of this movie. 'Cause he is the ex-husband. Claire Fisher: right? Hannah's ex-husband. Yes. Katie Marinello: So Holly, is played by Diane Weist. She has won two Oscars for best supporting actress, including for this movie. She had an extensive career in a traveling Shakespeare troupe and on Broadway before moving to the big screen. Her first [00:15:00] notable role was as the pastor's wife Footloose. Claire Fisher: Oh, I didn't know she was in Footloose. Yeah, she plays Ariel's mother. Katie Marinello: She is starred in five of Woody Allen's movies and was also nominated for an Oscar for Parenthood. Which also starred Keanu Reeves, so shout out to 12 and 24. She has won two Emmy awards as well, and since 2021, she has starred in the Paramount Crime Thriller Series, mayor of Kingstown on Paramount Plus, which I have never heard of, but I'm happy to hear that she's still working. Claire Fisher: Well, I will note that uh, she was in parenthood with Keanu Reeve. She was also in The Lost Boys with Alex Winter, which means she has been in movies with both Bill and Ted. Okay, well that's not a doctor who oversight on my part. That's just funny trivia. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Katie Marinello: Yeah, Holly,, so the first thing that happens is that they are complimenting how well she cooks, right? And she says, oh, you know, April and I are gonna start a catering company. And, [00:16:00] elliot says, that's amazing. That's where your talent truly lies. Claire Fisher: but she has to ask Hannah, for the money to open this catering business. She asked for $2,000, which adjusted for inflation would be 5,800. And Hannah Mia Farrow says, well, it's not for Coke again, is it? Right. Katie Marinello: And she says, don't be mad at me. And Hannah says, I'm never mad at you. Right. So like there's very much a sense that Holly resents that she always has to ask Hannah. But Hannah. Does not outwardly show any sense that she resents that she's always being asked. And even when she says, is it for cocaine again, it's not with like a judgmental tone necessarily. And she's like, I haven't done drugs in a year, and she Okay. Claire Fisher: and then Hannah's trying to fix up Holly with, someone else who's at the party, like her daughter's school principal. Mm-hmm. And she says he looks like Iba Crane. And then April, Carrie Fisher walks in and says, Ugh, there are no interesting single men at this party. And Hannah says, well, what about so and [00:17:00] so? And April says what? Iba Crane? Yeah. So that's how we meet April. So they, they start the catering company and at their first, uh. Stanislas catering company and action scene. They are running around. Um, and Holly says, oh, what a big hit. April says, no, I had a callback for comeback. Little Sheba. That's a big hit. Yep. Huh? Uhhuh. Yep. Intertextuality, yes. Ready? Big hit. Oh, and this were a big hit yesterday. I should come back. Little she of that. I wasn't such a big hit. You'll be, you'll be, you'll get five jobs next morning. Claire Fisher: And into the kitchen walks. Who? Jack McCoy, David, Sam Waterson, Leonardo. From that one time we went through a lot to get much a do about nothing. Tickets. Yes. See previous podcast, uh, now Wikipedia says he's uncredited in this Katie Marinello: but whatever. I immediately recognized him. We all know him as Jack McCoy, who has prosecuted more murderers on TV than there actually have been in New York City. [00:18:00] Kidding, kind of. , This is actually his second collaboration with Woody Allen. His first was interiors in 1974. He premiered as Jack McCoy in 1994 and remained on the show until its cancellation in 2010, though he does sometimes, reprise the role on the various spinoffs. When the show was canceled in 2010, he was the second longest running cast member. Do you know who the first was? Claire Fisher: S Thepath. Meen, yes. Very good. You need to never underestimate how many sick days I watched law and order marathons through. Katie Marinello: Right, I mean, there's just so many, marathons At any given time, there could be a law and order marathon on, Claire Fisher: And at any time I am a week away from a sick day. Right. Katie Marinello: So his is a study in nominations. , He was nominated for best actor, Oscar for his performance in the Killing Fields. But he lost to f Murray Abraham for his role in Amadeus, again, talent. [00:19:00] Six Emmy nominations for all flyaway and law and order six nominations. He didn't win any for Law and Order. Are you kidding me? He did win a Golden Globe for all flyaway. He received a 1994 Tony Award nomination for best actor in a play for his performance in the Broadway revival of Abe Lincoln. But Waterson and his fellow Law and Order cast by Jerry Auerbach were both declared living landmarks by the New York Landmarks Conservancy. Claire Fisher: So at least he's got that going. And of the two, he's the one who's still alive. Yeah. So that makes Sam Waterson the last living law. Law, the last living landmark from Law and Order, at least, I don't know how many living landmarks there are according to New York Conservatory. Katie Marinello: And also give SA path of Markon. Her due. Claire Fisher: so in the movie he's someone who, he's kind of bored at this crowded party and he ducks into the kitchen, both to compliment the caterers and to, turn on the radio because he's hoping to catch some of tonight's opera b [00:20:00] broadcast. Some of tonight's AIDA broadcast. Oh, Claire Fisher: sorry. We may or may not like the, the Broadway version of Ida. Better than the opera. Yeah. Who doesn't? So, both women immediately are hitting on this guy. Mm-hmm. Immediately they don't ask it. Any other questions? Mm-hmm. Oh, I love opera. In a way that we don't really see in like modern house parties. Like people just going for it. Yeah. With the random stranger they just met. Katie Marinello: Not anymore. I think this is what we see all the time in, movies. I do think that there's been a shift since dating services, dating sites, but I don't know that anyone ever did this quite. As aggressively as you see on tv, Claire Fisher: And we are the product of parents who met at a house party in New York City one year after this movie takes place. Katie Marinello: Right. Well, that's what I'm saying, like [00:21:00] clearly before everybody was swiping there and I don't want to say like, back in my day because actually I think it's better that we don't randomly go up to people and like try to engage in. Sexual activity with them. But um, yeah, so we don't know, but regardless, both women are clearly interested in him. Actually, I'm gonna listen to Aida. I'm not getting in your way. No, not at all. No. We saw, um, Papa at Dinner. Na at the, Matt and I cried. I cry at, oh, I, I I go limp in the last scene in La Ravi a limp. Me too. I have a private box at the Met. I bring my little bottle of wine. I open it, I sit there and I watch and I cry. It's disgusting. Oh, what, what do you do? I'm an architect. What, what kind of things do you build? Are you really interested? Yeah. What time do you get off? Claire Fisher: So they're so into him that they accept a ride from him to drive around the city and look at architecture buildings. He's design and buildings that he likes. [00:22:00] Because April asked him, oh, what are your favorite buildings? And he's like, oh, you wanna see them? So you know, he's driving them around. It's not super clear to me which one of him he might, might be most interested in. Yeah. But there, it seems like April might maybe has the most encounter with them because she has more to say about architecture. Yeah. According to Holly's voiceover, April went to Brandeis and can fake her way through architecture questions better, right? But we don't see the whole conversation and we don't really see what Holly had said about most things. Yeah this comes up when they're arguing over which of them should get dropped off first. Maybe we should start thinking about going home, huh? Oh, geez. Okay. Who gets dropped first? Oh, gee, I don't know. Um, well, I live downtown. Yeah. I, we both live downtown. Ah, it depends on what way you wanna go. You know what? I know if, well, if we took the, if we took fifth, then, then we'd get to your house first. Yeah, right. We could do that. Yeah. But fifth is so jammed, isn't it? I mean, well, some time, some. You live in Chelsea, don't you? Yeah, well, I, I guess if you live in Chelsea, that's [00:23:00] probably first. Oh, okay. Okay. And then April. Right. Claire Fisher: Clearly, because they're hoping whoever gets dropped off last can invite him up for a night cap, right? Mm-hmm. Holly has a. Thought of course I get dropped off first. I shouldn't have made a rollerskating joke about the Guggenheim. I mean, to be fair, it does look like something. You wanna roller skate down. Yeah. But you're not allowed. No. and we don't know if April invites him up because we don't get to follow April because she's not one of the sisters. No. But the next time we see Holly, she's on a date at an opera in his private booth with bottle of wine and she's like really excited about him. So we don't really know if they go on anymore Dave's, but she's talking about him to her sisters. Yeah. Hannah and Holly go shopping. They're gonna get some opera going clothes, because she's so excited about David, even though he is married. He says his wife is schizophrenic. She's in and out of institutions. He's thinking of splitting for good when their daughter leaves to college. I mean, has there ever been a married man who doesn't tell his new girlfriend that his wife is secretly crazy? Yes. And that they're gonna split up any minute now. Any minute now? Yep. [00:24:00] This, the scene is actually focused on her relationship with Hannah because she says she has an audition for a musical. And Hannah says, oh, I didn't know you could sing. Mm-hmm. And then it becomes the whole, you're always criticizing me and you really know how to put me down. Nobody. But you can do that to me. Ah, sisters, who can push each other's buttons. We have no experience with this. None. So, we do see the audition. It. Okay. But I mean, I, I've sat in on auditions for things that mom has produced or directed, and she just looks so nervous that, you know, I wouldn't hire her. No, she wasn't ready. No. And so then April gets up to sing her song and you know, they, they're probably equal in voice talent, but at April just seems more comfortable. So, you know, if I had to pick between 'em, I would see. Why April would be the stronger, candidate for this role. And then they walk out together talking about their upcoming catering job. And it turns out David just called April and asked her to be right, which is such a sleazy movie. You cannot invite two friends out. Well, I mean, we don't, we don't get to see [00:25:00] whether he and Holly had ever discussed exclusivity, and obviously if he's cheating on his wife with Holly, right. He's obviously not a one woman kind of man. Right. It may have been a little bit different in the eighties, 'cause again, they just met, they don't know anything about each other. They went on one date. Plus they drove around to look at architecture with the friend. Mm-hmm. So, you know, it could be that he just figures one date with each and I'll explore my options. Yeah. But you know, that it wasn't totally normal at the time because even April says that she was gonna turn him down. Right. Saying like, well, aren't you dating Holly? And he said, well, you know, I really felt like trying a a date with you as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I think if you've met both of them together, it's a little sleazy. I don't know. I guess if you're in an Archie comic, you can date both Betty and Veronica, depending on the week. Holly's heartbroken Katie Marinello: right. So then she tells her sisters about it and that ends the catering business. Right. And we just never see April again. . So she tells 'em about it at the, [00:26:00] the lunch that she has with her two sisters. Claire Fisher: Yeah, at the lunch it's apparently already a done deal because she's saying like, oh, guess who was at my latest audition? It was April, but I was polite. Katie Marinello: Right. Claire Fisher: Uh, Katie Marinello: they're like already done Claire Fisher: So then at this, so this is a very tense lunch for reasons we'll get to when we talk about the Lee Arc, Katie Marinello: right. Claire Fisher: Holly has to ask Hannah for money again Katie Marinello: Yep. Claire Fisher: company is kaput. Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: And, Hannah says, well, maybe you should try doing something more productive Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: job. Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: um, you know, Holly says, oh, you treat me like a loser. Hannah says, no, I've only ever been constructive and supportive. And then Lee burst into tears saying, stop attacking Hannah. Right. You know, I could always tell you thought of me by the type of man you fixed me up with. You're crazy. That's not true. Hey, Hannah. I know I'm mediocre. Oh, stop attacking Hannah. She's going through a really rough time right now. Why are you so upset? You know, you've been picking on her ever since she came in here and I just leave her alone for a while. I'm just suffocating. What's the matter with you, Lee? Why are you so [00:27:00] sensitive all of a sudden? Listen, you wanna write, right? What's the matter? Write. Let's just not talk about it anymore. Katie Marinello: Right. Claire Fisher: But Hannah gives Holly some Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: go Katie Marinello: Become a writer. Yeah. Claire Fisher: take on some writing. Katie Marinello: Yes. So then she writes a script Claire Fisher: Mm-hmm. Katie Marinello: and she drops it off at, Hannah's house for her to read. And then we see that's when the second Thanksgiving happens. Right? So Claire Fisher: The second is Hannah being furious to Holly because the script is very obviously based on Hannah and her husband Elliot and Katie Marinello: So perhaps we should, before we go onto the rest of Holly's, uh, story, because it also involves Mickey, maybe we should back up. Claire Fisher: yeah. Okay, so well let's, let's, that's the end of the Holly April David Arc. Katie Marinello: Yes, Claire Fisher: I, I, God, how long have we been talking? These people are get, Katie Marinello: I know. Claire Fisher: just Katie Marinello: that was like the shortest of the arcs, I feel like. Claire Fisher: Well maybe now that we've set some of the scene, the other arcs won't be as bad. Katie Marinello: Yeah, maybe. Claire Fisher: we don't have to [00:28:00] go. Uh, Katie Marinello: So first thing, Claire Fisher: back to the first Thanksgiving. Katie Marinello: first Thanksgiving. So the very first thing we learn about any of these damn characters is that Michael Kane's character Elliot is head over hill smitten with Lee, who is his wife, Hannah's sister. God, she's beautiful. She's got the prettiest eyes. She looks so sexy in that sweaty. I just want to be alone with her and hold her and kiss her and tell her how much I love her and take care of her. Stop it. You idiot. She's your wife's sister. I, I can't help it. I'm consumed by her. Claire Fisher: And she's played by. Katie Marinello: , Barbara Hershey. Who's an actress who's been working for 50 years. She got her start on television, and then, uh, started in movies, DOS day's final feature film, which was called With Six. You Get Egg Roll. So I think that's our hat trick [00:29:00] for possibly problematic Asian American stereotypes. Another much maligned media presence. She actually was kind of a tabloid feature, while she was in a relationship with David Carradine, um, who she met on a set. , She was known as a hippie. She was criticized for breastfeeding her son in public and also until he was almost three. She got a reputation for doing drugs and being unreliable. Though she claims neither. It's true. Luckily, her career revived in the eighties and the Chicago Tribune referred to her as one of America's finest actresses. She won an Emmy and a Golden Globe for outstanding lead actress in a miniseries and a TV film for the her role in a killing and a small town. And then Michael Kane. Who plays Elliot has appeared in more than 160 films over a career that spanned eight decades and is considered a British cultural icon. He's one of only five male actors to be [00:30:00] nominated for an Academy Award for acting in five different decades, and he's won twice. One for this movie and the other for Cider House rules. He's also won a BAFTA award, three Golden Globe Awards and a Screen Actor Guild Award. And oh, hey, he's a knight as of 2000. When Queen Elizabeth II knighted him as of 2017, the films in which he's appeared have grossed over $7.8 billion worldwide. He announced his retirement from acting in October, 2023 with his final film being The Great Escaper, which came out that same month. Claire Fisher: I didn't know he had retired. All right, well, okay, so who's retired? Katie Marinello: Yeah. Michael Kane's one you've seen in everything Claire Fisher: so here he is. Um, Katie Marinello: lusting after his wife's sister. Claire Fisher: yeah. Who is. Running out of unemployment checks, but thinks she might take some college classes with the last of her savings. Her boyfriend, Frederick, is struggling to sell his art Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: didn't come to Thanksgiving.[00:31:00] Katie Marinello: When does he ever. Claire Fisher: Yeah. I did notice as, as she's in the cab riding home, they go past a marquee for cats at the Winter Garden Theater where you and I would go to see cats. Not that long after this is set. Katie Marinello: No, maybe like five years later. Claire Fisher: yeah. Um, but anyway, Lee is her inner monologue. So Elliot's staring at her thinking how beautiful she is at the party. Then on the, in the cab, on the way home, she's thinking about how, oh, I still feel a little buzzed from his flirting. Right. Katie Marinello: Yeah. Am I crazy to think that Elliot has a thing for me? I feel she's slaughtered by the attention and they talk about books and movies and things, you know, that they, Claire Fisher: Yeah. Katie Marinello: oh, you should really read this. Oh, you should really see that. Um, Claire Fisher: also the dynamic she has with her boyfriend Frederick, Katie Marinello: right. Claire Fisher: talks about how much he's taught her, Katie Marinello: Right. Claire Fisher: Max Von out. I dunno if you wanna give that Katie Marinello: Yeah, of course. Um, max Van had a 70 year career in European and American [00:32:00] Cinema, television and theater. He appeared in more than 150 films, and several television series in multiple different languages. He was nominated for two Academy awards for best actor, for Pel, the, and best supporting actor for extremely loud and incredibly close. , So he's quite a bit older than her. Right. And he, she, was she his actual student or would Claire Fisher: don't mention Katie Marinello: They don't really say, but they just say that she, like she wanted to learn from him. Claire Fisher: Yeah. And he likes teaching her everything I know, or, Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: Um, but Katie Marinello: Which is something that Woody Allen said in an interview about sun y you like five years ago. Claire Fisher: Hmm. Katie Marinello: Um. Claire Fisher: Um, but what's interesting is he has clocked that Elliot has a crush on Lee because she always comes home with book recommendations from him. Katie Marinello: Right, Claire Fisher: This is how he, he met. He says, oh, he's always lusting after you Katie Marinello: right, Claire Fisher: he's recommending you books. Katie Marinello: right. Claire Fisher: sure, great. Um, but Katie Marinello: not wrong. Claire Fisher: this guy, I mean, Frederick has [00:33:00] like a super antisocial relationship with the rest of the world. He literally says the only person he can be sweet to is Lee. Katie Marinello: Right. Claire Fisher: this is not a recipe for long-term happiness. Katie Marinello: I mean, and she seems to know like, I can't be everything to this person, you know? Um, Claire Fisher: so it kind of seems like both Frederick and Elliot are fetishizing the projection that they have of this woman, Katie Marinello: yeah. Claire Fisher: or as Captain Picard puts it, doesn't love, always begin with the illusion more real than the woman, right. Um. Katie Marinello: Yes. Claire Fisher: the next thing we see of them is that Elliot is waiting outside the building for Lee to leave, to go to her AA meeting so that he can run around the block and bump into Katie Marinello: Right. Claire Fisher: ask her for directions to a bookstore Katie Marinello: And then go to the bookstore with her and then give her a book and tell her that there's a poem that reminds him of her. Claire Fisher: and say that he'd love to see an AA meeting sometime, Katie Marinello: Right. Claire Fisher: which is Katie Marinello: And, and then he, so Elliot is a financial advisor Claire Fisher: right? Katie Marinello: and apparently a [00:34:00] financial advisor to some big names and. He brings his like client around to Claire Fisher: Shop Katie Marinello: I mean, first he tell, he tells her and then he is like, oh yeah, maybe, you know, maybe some of my clients would want, art from Frederick. And so he brings one of them over and Frederick takes him downstairs to look at some of his bigger paintings. 'cause he really needs bigger paintings to fill up the wall. So this guy's very, Claire Fisher: Yeah. Okay. Katie Marinello: very discerning. Claire Fisher: we do see here that Frederick is not very good at the, like the secondary skill of being an artist Katie Marinello: Right, Claire Fisher: your art Katie Marinello: right. Claire Fisher: really not good at it. Uh, Katie Marinello: One of my favorite podcasts that you listen to, to QAA, they were just talking about this today, like the one part they hate about it is the capitalism, Claire Fisher: right. Yeah. But that's literally what life is, right? Katie Marinello: right. So they go downstairs to look at bigger paintings Claire Fisher: And Lee and Elliot are chatting and Katie Marinello: mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: her dental hygienists are now wearing gloves. Did you Katie Marinello: Yes. Claire Fisher: didn't use to wear gloves? Katie Marinello: No, but they're [00:35:00] scared of aids. That's like the one political statement that anyone makes, Claire Fisher: yeah. Is that because, Katie Marinello: or current events, you know? Claire Fisher: inspired me to text your father, our father, to ask him to retell me the story of the one cousin of his who refused to start wearing gloves as a dentist during the AIDS pandemic. That that's one of dad's least popular stories. And, but he liked tell again. Katie Marinello: I mean, yay for not being homophobic, but ew Claire Fisher: while, while they're like just making small talk about like mouth hygiene, Elliot just grabs her and kisses her and shouts, Lee, I'm in love with you. Katie Marinello: yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's receptive to this for some odd reason. Claire Fisher: They meet up outside on the street and you know, he's Katie Marinello: She's like, what was I supposed to say to that? Claire Fisher: Yeah. And what am I, I couldn't do that to Hannah. Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: he says, no, no, no, I'm not gonna leave Hannah for you. I'm just leaving her in general. And Katie Marinello: Yes. Things are things between Hannah and I are, [00:36:00] on the rocks are, you know, like it's a done deal between Claire Fisher: love with Katie Marinello: Yeah. Here's the thing. First of all, interesting echo between that and David, right, as you said. Every married man says this when he's trying to pursue a young woman. There's no indication. We never see a scene between Elliot and Hannah where there's on the rocks or things are not going well. Claire Fisher: No, absolutely not. , Actually, every time we see him with her, Katie Marinello: He loves her. Claire Fisher: how great she Katie Marinello: Yeah, I love her. But does he say to Lee in this, scene that Hannah just doesn't need him? Claire Fisher: He says it eventually, , that she doesn't need him, and that's his problem, which Katie Marinello: Yeah. Claire Fisher: again, Hannah's the stable one. Katie Marinello: Right. Well. Claire Fisher: So somehow the Elliot Parlays listened to Lee meeting him in a hotel room for sex, even though she said, oh, I promised myself I wouldn't let this happen until you were living alone. Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: Ugh, barf, Katie Marinello: And then she says she, she thought she wasn't gonna be perform as well as [00:37:00] Hannah, which under no circumstances should anyone ever be able to compare between two sisters. Claire Fisher: Okay. There's, there's some circumstances. Katie Marinello: What circumstances? Claire Fisher: Well, okay. In some cultures, if your wife dies, you're supposed to marry her sister. Katie Marinello: Okay. We're talking about New York City in the eighties. Claire Fisher: No. You weren't supposed to do that then. No. Katie Marinello: No. Claire Fisher: And this doesn't seem healthy in the least. Katie Marinello: No. Claire Fisher: She's obviously looking for some affirmation from Elliot, and he is, he's putting her on a pedestal. He, Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: the illusion, Katie Marinello: Yeah. Claire Fisher: So Katie Marinello: she was Claire Fisher: he Katie Marinello: good or better. I don't know, but yeah. Claire Fisher: she was better. Yeah. Katie Marinello: Yeah. Anyway, Claire Fisher: anyway. Katie Marinello: she goes home. Claire Fisher: And Frederick. she missed a TV show about the Holocaust. And uh, also, yeah, [00:38:00] he was just flipping channels and saw the whole culture. We should cut this monologue in. It's Katie Marinello: It is very funny It's been ages since I sat in front of the tv just changing channels to find something. You see the whole culture, Nazis, deodorant, salesman, wrestlers, beauty contest, the talk shop. Can you imagine the level of a mind that watches wrestling? Huh? But the worst are the fundamentalist preachers, third rate Conmen telling the pro suckers that watch them, that they speak for Jesus, and to please send in money, money, money, money. If Jesus came back. And so what's going on in his name? It never stopped throwing up. Oh God. Fred, could you please lighten up? Katie Marinello: And the whole time she's just like getting more and more like frustrated because she doesn't want to hear about the horrors of the world right now. Claire Fisher: and she, she's, in other words, she's gotten tired of hearing him teach her things. Katie Marinello: [00:39:00] She's over it. She's grown up and she doesn't want to, and they've been together like five years, I think it said. Claire Fisher: Yeah, Katie Marinello: And she's just like, yeah. So she says, basically she breaks up with him on the spot, then he notices that she's been kissed. 'cause something about her lips and Claire Fisher: is smeared. Katie Marinello: Yeah. And then so he realizes that there's someone else and whatever, whatever. I don't think he ever finds out who it is. Doesn't really matter. Claire Fisher: No. I mean, he says, I should have married you years ago when you wanted to. And Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: is not the moment to have that revelation, Katie Marinello: right. And she's like, it wouldn't have worked anyway, which is probably true because he seems like a thoroughly unpleasant man. Claire Fisher: But meanwhile, Elliot's back at home in bed next to Hannah, thinking about what a horrible man he is. I Katie Marinello: Horrible. Claire Fisher: my wife. I've betrayed her. I gotta stop this Katie Marinello: Look how wonderful she is, and I've done this to her. Claire Fisher: Yeah. And he like goes to call Lee to tell her, no, we can't do that again. Katie Marinello: It's one o'clock in the morning and he is like, oh, it's too late to call her. If he picks up, I'll hang up, but, [00:40:00] oh, it's one 30 in the morning. Okay, well I'll call her first thing in the morning. And as he's saying that, then the phone rings and it's her Claire Fisher: Yeah. Katie Marinello: and she says, I can't stop thinking about you. You know, I've broken things off. Whatever. Claire Fisher: Yeah, so they continued this affair. We see them in hotel rooms again, but he and Hannah, like Hannah's doing everything she can to try to be like, what's up with you? Katie Marinello: Right. Claire Fisher: seem Katie Marinello: There's some, yeah. Claire Fisher: Is it work? Is it me? Are you in love with someone else and he, you know, completely denies it. Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: tells him, oh, just be honest, Katie Marinello: Right. Just tell her. Just tell her. Claire Fisher: But what he really says out loud is, ought to have my head examined. I don't deserve you. Katie Marinello: Right, right. She even tries to talk to him about having a baby Claire Fisher: and Katie Marinello: and he says Claire Fisher: children. Katie Marinello: have four children, which we see she has two that she gave birth to and two that are adopted, at some point. Apparently both played by Moses Pharaoh. She's like, but I want one with you. Which [00:41:00] having gone through all what I just told you about the custody battle, very, very biographical. Um, Claire Fisher: by the summer he's telling his shrink. I'm like, Hamlet unable to kill his Katie Marinello: right. Claire Fisher: I want Lee, but I can't hurt Hannah. And meanwhile, Lee, we see this, but he, we don't hear anything about it. Lee meets someone, she's taking her college classes that she was thinking Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: I skipped ahead to the lunch where she, and Katie Marinello: Oh yes. So then, right, so we have this one scene where all it's three sisters and nobody else, right? It's just that one scene where it's the three sisters. And so we know that there's this conflict between Holly and Hannah Claire Fisher: mm-hmm. Katie Marinello: Lee Lee burst into tears, Claire Fisher: Yeah. Don't attack Hannah. Katie Marinello: but she's going through a very difficult time right now, which. As far as Hannah knows, she's not. So there's like this weird, moment where you think she might ask some follow up questions, but she does not. Claire Fisher: right. So where this comes back together, [00:42:00] the two lines intersect again, is that, by the next, the second Thanksgiving, Lee is getting serious about her literature professor and. Feels like she's cheating on Elliot, who's cheating on Hannah with Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: And then Holly shows up with this script that's obviously based on the relationship between Hannah and Elliot and Hannah demands to know how do we even know about the conversations Elliot and I have Katie Marinello: These are conversations that nobody was there for. And so she says she confronts Elliot. Have you been talking to Lee or Holly? Because clearly he said certain things to Lee who's then told them to Holly. Even though it's not clear, Holly doesn't know about the affair. Claire Fisher: Right, this really becomes the crux of the movie. Hannah has tried so hard not to bother anyone else with her problems. she finds out that Elliot's been, she, she kind of finds out that she at least finds out he's been emotionally unfaithful because he's told her sisters about the problems he has with her. Katie Marinello: right, Claire Fisher: meanwhile, in the next room, Lee is [00:43:00] dumping Elliot because he is like, you're, you're obviously not gonna leave Hannah. You still love her, Katie Marinello: right. It's been a year like yeah. Claire Fisher: And so then Hannah. Tracks Elliot down and is like, you know, why are you telling my sisters about us? And you know, and he says, I, I need someone I can matter to. Katie Marinello: Right, Claire Fisher: is what it becomes. It's hard to be around someone who needs so little, and Katie Marinello: right, Claire Fisher: ugh, the curse of competence. Like I am fortunate not to have had this in my relationship with my husband, but I have had it in many professional relationships and many interpersonal relationships that like. Because I don't make trouble Katie Marinello: Right, Claire Fisher: then that means I'm in charge of everything. Katie Marinello: right. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Claire Fisher: Um, and I, this is when I realized we're an hour and 28 minutes into this hour and 47 minute movie. And Hannah, who's the title character, has barely been in it. Katie Marinello: Right, Claire Fisher: And [00:44:00] that's when I realized like they did that on purpose. Katie Marinello: right, Claire Fisher: audience is neglecting Hannah. She's not one of the people having a problem, Katie Marinello: right, Claire Fisher: Bo boring. Katie Marinello: right. Claire Fisher: No. That means she's stable and healthy and good Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: wants to support the people in her life instead of being a drain on their energy. Katie Marinello: Right, right, Claire Fisher: Elliot fortunately realizes this too, and recommits himself to Katie Marinello: right. But there's never a confession. There's never any indication that she knows for sure what happened. Claire Fisher: No. Katie Marinello: that relationship is tenuous at best, I would say. Um, okay. Should we back up again? Claire Fisher: Yes, Katie Marinello: Do, do we feel like. We, we finished everything out with Lee. Claire Fisher: yeah, well, Lee ends up with her literature professor Katie Marinello: Yeah. Claire Fisher: the tag. Katie Marinello: The happy ending is that she ends up with her teacher. Claire Fisher: Well, she clearly has a, she clearly has a type. Katie. Katie Marinello: Yes. Clearly Claire Fisher: way back at the first [00:45:00] Thanksgiving, it was casually mentioned that Katie Marinello: the street. Claire Fisher: ran into Hannah's ex-husband, the Katie Marinello: He's still a, he's still a hypochondriac. Yes. So we do not see him. He's not at Thanksgiving. Claire Fisher: but then there's a title card that says the hypochondriac, and that's Nikki Katie Marinello: right, Claire Fisher: aforementioned Woody Allen. Katie Marinello: right. So he comes through, he's a writer on some variety show. Claire Fisher: It's Katie Marinello: Uh, Claire Fisher: supposed to be SNL 'cause you Katie Marinello: yeah. Claire Fisher: of the NBC logo. Katie Marinello: it's an SNL type thing, if not actually SNL. They're telling him that he, they have to cut the child molestation, skit. Which, Claire Fisher: Well, it's a skit in which he accuses the pope of being a child molester, which was Katie Marinello: which, fair enough. Yes. Claire Fisher: Okay. Katie Marinello: The two staffers that he's talking to in that first scene, do you know who they're. Claire Fisher: No. Katie Marinello: , Louis Black comedian known for Back in Black on the Daily Show and various other things. And Julia Louis Dreyfus,[00:46:00] Claire Fisher: Oh, I didn't realize. Okay. Katie Marinello: this is his first movie ever and her second movie ever. Claire Fisher: Wow. Katie Marinello: they are, they are credited, but obviously we're not known and we don't see much of them throughout the movie. More of her, I think, Claire Fisher: Yeah, well. Moments 'cause he doesn't stay in this job for very long. Katie Marinello: right? Claire Fisher: So we see Mickey go to Hannah's house for their son's birthday, Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: son's birthdays. They, they Katie Marinello: Yeah. They have twins. Yeah. Claire Fisher: But even while the kids are opening their presents from him, from Daddy, he's talking over their heads to Hannah Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: oh, Elliot's great. You always had such great taste. And Katie Marinello: Husbands, yeah. Claire Fisher: um. Katie Marinello: It's a very weird scene. He's clearly not very interested in his children. He's more interested in talking to her. She's kinda like, try Claire Fisher: a reason. Katie Marinello: Yes. And, she's kinda like trying to redirect him, but like being polite. Oh, that's so great. He's been wanting a mi, how'd you [00:47:00] know? And then he's leaving. He is like, well, at least I'm not paying child support. Which, what? Claire Fisher: Well, because she's richer Katie Marinello: Because she's richer than he is. Yep. Claire Fisher: But he is a hypochondriac. He is having some hearing loss in one of his ears. Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: which one. when the doctor actually validates his concern and says, you know, you do seem to have lost some range. Like, here, I'm gonna send you for some more autography, he panics, and this is cute 'cause this is before WebMD Katie Marinello: Yeah. Claire Fisher: a phone booth. He calls his other doctor to ask what the possibilities are for. Hearing Katie Marinello: Right. Claire Fisher: then he convinces himself that he probably has a brain tumor that they just haven't told him about. Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: like in Garbo talks, where they, they tell the son first. Right. Katie Marinello: Well, no, he is, because they haven't done all the tests though. It's different than gar Botox Claire Fisher: Yeah. Katie Marinello: They haven't done all the tests yet, but he of course assumes that it's gonna be the worst. Claire Fisher: So he goes and rans to his assistant. Oh God. Just this morning I was happy and she says, no you weren't. And he Katie Marinello: Right. Claire Fisher: I, I didn't know I Katie Marinello: I didn't [00:48:00] know I was happy. Yes. Claire Fisher: So the anxiety of the man in the booth is his next title card 'cause he is in the testing booth at the hospital. And then like he's leaving Mount Sinai being like, oh God, nothing's gonna happen to you. You were in the middle of New York City, which is very funny. You can't die 'cause you're in the middle of New York City, Katie Marinello: Well, 'cause they tell him that they want him to come back again. Right. So he does a, he does a, the hearing booth test and then they want him to come back for an MRI. Claire Fisher: And that Katie Marinello: He's like a brain scan. Claire Fisher: CAT scan. Yeah, it's Katie Marinello: Yeah, CAT scan. And he is like. Claire Fisher: in the eighties, Katie Marinello: Right. Claire Fisher: I've had like seven Katie Marinello: Yeah. So he is like freaking out. Yeah. So then yes, nothing can happen to me. I'm in the middle of New York City. Claire Fisher: But then I'm dying. I know it. Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: And so he flashes back to the one time in his life that a doctor had to give him actually bad Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: when he was told that he and Hannah could not conceive because he had low sperm Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Almost no sperm count. Yes. Claire Fisher: this minor subplot did send me down a rabbit hole for [00:49:00] how old the concept of a sperm bank is. Are you at all interested Katie Marinello: I mean, I know a little bit about it, but go ahead. Claire Fisher: Okay, so I Katie Marinello: I've watched way more true crime than you have. Claire Fisher: Oh, please. Um. insemination with donor sperm is documented as far back as 1884. Katie Marinello: Wow. Claire Fisher: Notably in the Katie Marinello: I. Claire Fisher: case, they told the husband what they were gonna do, but not the wife. they led her to believe that they had managed to impregnate her. They, they anesthetized her, and then they put donor sperm inside her. Katie Marinello: Ugh. Claire Fisher: Um. The first successful birth from frozen sperm was in 1963, in 1968 the California Supreme Court ruled that babies born by artificial insemination to married couples would be considered legitimate, IE the husband's child Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: the way for the first commercial sperm bank to open in the early 1970s. Though they were not really in common use even in the [00:50:00] eighties, notably in, the Big Chill, which came out in 1983. A single woman who wants to be a mother is just like walking around at a funeral asking her male friends if Katie Marinello: Yes. Claire Fisher: her up. Katie Marinello: Right. And so that makes sense for the fact that they, this couple is not particularly interested in, in buying sperm. Claire Fisher: right. Katie Marinello: Right? Claire Fisher: up asking his writing partner to donate some sperm so that it wouldn't have to be a stranger. Katie Marinello: It is maybe the funniest and most awkward scene in the movie. Claire Fisher: Oh Lord, how would that ever not be an awkward Katie Marinello: I mean, it's awkward, and they're like, oh, I didn't wanna ruin the night. Let's talk about something else. Dad. What? Claire Fisher: And so the, the man they're asking is like, well, I gave blood before, uh, Katie Marinello: He's, Claire Fisher: and Katie Marinello: seems on board and her, his wife is like, I think we need to talk to your analyst and my analyst about it. Claire Fisher: he says, and maybe my lawyer Katie Marinello: Yes. Yes. Claire Fisher: involve anyone you need to involve if someone has to ask you to donate sperm. Katie Marinello: Oh my God, yes. Get a contract. Claire Fisher: yes. Get a contract. Don't do it [00:51:00] back alley. It's a bad Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: So then Mickey is remembering this because he remembers this is like why his marriage fell Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: that the fact that the children were not biologically his contributed to their drifting apart. Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: you know, love is really unpredictable. Katie Marinello: Right. Claire Fisher: Meanwhile, we do see Hannah. Doing other things. I, I feel like this is the Hannah Mickey Ark here. Katie Marinello: okay. Claire Fisher: yeah. Hannah, we see going to their parents' house when her mother falls off the wagon. Katie Marinello: Right. Claire Fisher: The parents have apparently never been faithful to each other. Katie Marinello: Yes. Claire Fisher: the mother says something like, thank God we had a talented daughter. And the father says with you as her mother, I can only hope she was mine. Katie Marinello: Right. Claire Fisher: Her father could be anybody in actor's equity, Katie Marinello: Yes. Claire Fisher: the mother's retort is, oh, you're the one who slayed every ingenue in stock. Katie Marinello: Marina Sullivan plays Norma. That's the mother and she is Mia Farrow's actual mother, along with six other children who don't get linked in the her bio. Her film career began in the 1930s [00:52:00] and she was a contract player at Metro Gold Goldwin Mayor. She's best known for playing Jane in the Tarzan movies from 1932 to 1942. She appeared in dozens of other films with some of the biggest names in Hollywood and has a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame right across from the guy who played Tarzan, and she died in 1998. And the father is played by Lloyd Nolan, who is an actor best known for action heavy B movies while under contract with Paramount and 20th Century Fox Studios. He co-starred from 1968 to 1971 in the pioneering. NBC series, Julia with Diane Carroll. That was who was the first Amer African American woman to star in a nons servant role in her own television series. Claire Fisher: She did, uh, appear in the holiday special. Katie Marinello: Yes. Yes. And then disability month notes. Since we are recording this in July, I don't know exactly when it's gonna come out. Um, Lloyd Nolan's son, Jay Nolan had [00:53:00] autism and was institutionalized at a private institution at the age of 13. He died at age 26 from choking while eating in 1973, Nolan testified to Congress urging that autism be recognized as a developmental disability, and he's credited with having convinced Ronald Reagan to sign California's bill mandating education to be provided to children with autism. Claire Fisher: Oh. Katie Marinello: After he went public in 19 72, 73, Jay Nolan. Was determined to be one of the first children in the country to be diagnosed with autism. And Nolan founded the Jay Nolan Autistic Center, which is now known as Jay Nolan Community Services. Other than that, he advocated for like mandatory prayer in schools. So, but we like, but way to go on the disability rights. Claire Fisher: Trust me, disability activism makes for strange blood bedfellows Katie Marinello: Yes. Claire Fisher: can become Katie Marinello: Anyone can become disabled at any point. Claire Fisher: have a disabled Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: Speaking of which, the reason I mention this now is that [00:54:00] Hannah's inner monologue says, oh, my parents loved the idea of having kids, but not the idea of raising Katie Marinello: Right, Claire Fisher: And I'm like, that's literally, Mickey was just saying that you, oh, he's, he was just over being a terrible father to your Katie Marinello: right, Claire Fisher: you had with him. And his Writing partners help. Katie Marinello: right. Claire Fisher: And their mother actually says, well, Holly takes after me because I would've been a great dope addict. Katie Marinello: Right, right. Yeah. Claire Fisher: Um, Katie Marinello: Yeah. And she's just kinda like, again, it's, it's showing her stability. She's just like, can we not fight about this? Claire Fisher: Can we just Katie Marinello: She tells her father like, go away, leave mom alone. And then she starts saying to mom, but mom, you said you'd stop drinking. You know? So she's kinda like being the peacemaker. Claire Fisher: So Mickey meanwhile doesn't have a brain tumor, Katie Marinello: Nope. Claire Fisher: realization that if he had had a brain tumor. He would've done nothing with his life. He hadn't found any meeting with his life, Katie Marinello: Right, Claire Fisher: so he tells his assistant, and this maybe we should cut in 'cause it's probably one of the funnier lines. can I tell [00:55:00] you something? Can I tell you a secret? Yes, please. A week ago I bought a rifle. I went to a store, I bought a rifle. I was going to, you know, if they told me that I had a tumor, I was gonna kill myself. The only thing that might've stopped me might've is my parents would be devastated. I would, I would've had to shoot them also first, and then I have an aunt and uncle. I would've, you know, it would've been a bloodbath. Claire Fisher: His assistant actually says, could you like go to a whorehouse or something? Can you Katie Marinello: Because she's like, why would you quit now? You're not dying. And he is like, no, but like he's having an existential crisis. So Claire Fisher: quits his Katie Marinello: he quits his job. Claire Fisher: he goes to try to find the meaning of life, Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: like, all right, well maybe it's love. Of course, I was in love with Hannah, and then he flashes back to Katie Marinello: And it's so weird how long this takes to come up, but apparently after he divorced Hannah, she set him up with Holly. Claire Fisher: they had a terrible date Katie Marinello: Which is Claire Fisher: had nothing in common. Katie Marinello: I, under what circumstances would you set me up with one of your exes? Claire Fisher: I don't have any exes. Katie Marinello: that's true, but should something happen [00:56:00] between you and Brian, I should be the last person on earth that he dates next, let alone to be set up by Hannah. But this is what Hannah does, right? So, Claire Fisher: to fix things and this is when Holly was doing coke and you know, maybe she thought that Mickey could be a stabilizing Katie Marinello: So she, so she took Mickey to a, rock concert and he hates it 'cause he can't hear anything. Claire Fisher: that that's causing his hearing loss. Katie Marinello: Right. Right. So then he takes her to a jazz club. And she hates it 'cause it's boring and they just fight the whole time. And she gets into a cab by herself and slams the door. And that's that. Claire Fisher: Well, he's saying I've had a great time tonight. It's like a Nuremberg trial, Katie Marinello: Right. Claire Fisher: so, okay, so he says, love can't be the Katie Marinello: No Claire Fisher: to Catholicism. Katie Marinello: to Catholicism. Claire Fisher: If I can't believe in God, I don't think life is worth living. He says. Katie Marinello: So then he goes to tell his parents that he's converting and they're flipping out, and he said, because they're Jewish. And he [00:57:00] says, if there's a God, why do bad things happen? Why were there Nazis? She says, tell your son why they were Nazis. Like how do I, this is my favorite line. How the hell do I know why there were Nazis? I don't know how the can opener works. Mom come out, of course there's a God, you idiot. You don't believe in God, but there's a God. Then why? Why is there so much evil in the world? Well, just on a simplistic level, why? Why were there Nazis? Tell him, max, how the hell do I know why there were Nazis? I don't know how the can opener work. Claire Fisher: I was actually laughing aloud at Katie Marinello: Yep. That one I was like, I gotta can to him, there's a reason. He is one of the best writers, you know, most recognized writers in Hollywood. That is funny. Claire Fisher: he goes shopping for crucifixes Wonder Bread, mayonnaise, he is gonna try to become a Catholic, but that doesn't work out. The next Katie Marinello: They don't really say why it doesn't work out though, right? Claire Fisher: Well, he goes to the Hari Krishnas and he Katie Marinello: He decides he's gonna be a hara Krishna. Claire Fisher: he couldn't really connect with [00:58:00] Catholicism. So maybe he's interested in Reincarnating, but then he thinks about it and he's like, Hari Krishna, I don't wanna be Katie Marinello: Right? Am I really gonna be a Hara Krishna? Yeah. Claire Fisher: Okay, so then Holly writes the script. The second Thanksgiving happens, the mom loves Holly's script because the mom is hilarious, but Katie Marinello: Yeah. Oh yeah. She loves the mom character in it. Yes. Claire Fisher: And so sometime later Mickey runs into Holly. Katie Marinello: He sees her in like a record store or something, right? Like through the window, Claire Fisher: And he goes in and says, I don't know if you remember me, but I had the worst night of my life with you. Katie Marinello: which is so funny to me because obviously even if they hadn't gone on a date, he should remember. She should remember her. He was married to her sister. Claire Fisher: Yeah. Katie Marinello: They had children together. But anyway, Claire Fisher: to each other, I hope you've changed. Katie Marinello: yes, yes. I hope you've changed. You'd have to have. And she says, oh, I've actually been writing a little bit. And he's like, oh, I would love to read it. You know, whatever. Uh, she's like, oh, people must tell you this all the time. Oh, I have something. He's like, no, nobody's ever done that, which is of course nonsense. Claire Fisher: Yeah, Katie Marinello: So she reads it to him, Claire Fisher: Uhhuh. Katie Marinello: which [00:59:00] is. So weird. Claire Fisher: speechless. He loves it. Katie Marinello: yeah. Claire Fisher: come up with the idea for the architect's schizophrenic wife to jump out of the bushes and stab his actress girlfriend to death? Katie Marinello: right. She's like, oh, it's just something I came up with. So clearly she's pulling from her own life, but from her own life. Claire Fisher: Yeah. Katie Marinello: I wrote something else, but Hannah really didn't like it. Claire Fisher: So they go out to lunch and he tells her about how he hit rock bottom A Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: He loaded his rifle to kill himself, but he, he missed himself 'cause he was so nervous. And then the neighbors were banging on the door and he, he really outta the house, wandered around, ended up sitting down in a movie house, saw Katie Marinello: and watching. Yeah. The Marx Brothers a movie he'd seen a thousand times before, Claire Fisher: And suddenly he thought to himself, what if there is no God? And you only go around once? Don't you want to be part of it? Katie Marinello: right? Claire Fisher: Which is actually quite poignant. That's a really good point. Katie Marinello: Yeah. Claire Fisher: Mickey and Holly go on a date then cut to a year later Katie Marinello: They're at Thanksgiving. The final [01:00:00] Thanksgiving. Yep. Claire Fisher: This is where they all come together for, Katie Marinello: Right, Claire Fisher: Because Elliot is watching Lee smile at her new husband, Katie Marinello: right. Claire Fisher: and he's thinking, oh, marriage agrees with her. I Katie Marinello: Yep. Claire Fisher: such a fool and I love Hannah more than I realized. Lee. Lee Katie Marinello: Just like Lisa told, told me. Yeah. Claire Fisher: Yeah. Holly walks in, and Mickey says, oh gosh, you know, such a story. I was with one sister, now I'm with the other. Turns out the heart is a very resilient little muscle, and she says, Mickey, I'm pregnant. And they kiss the Katie Marinello: And that's it. But it's a very weird scene. She's like speaking into, she's looking in the mirror and he comes up behind her and then he tells the whole story and then she says, I'm pregnant, Claire Fisher: Yeah, Katie Marinello: and that's it. Claire Fisher: so it's three Thanksgivings Katie Marinello: Three Thanksgivings an hour and 47 minutes long, like you said. Claire Fisher: I think we've been talking for an hour and 47 minutes at this point. Our Katie Marinello: I think so too. I kept pausing to see how much longer I had left, which isn't a great sign, but it was more like [01:01:00] I didn't wanna be watching a Woody Allen film. I realized at a certain point, okay, I'm not not enjoying this, but I feel like it's like six and a half movies trying to be one movie. Claire Fisher: Yeah, Katie Marinello: Like if the big emotional climax is that she's pregnant with his baby, it's weird that we don't even find out that there was a date between them until like three quarters of the way through the movie. But again. Like you said, as a character study, it's not ineffective. Claire Fisher: No. I mean, I, was watching the clock as well 'cause I was trying to get to bed 'cause I Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: that's how, how I realized that like, you know, you're an hour and 28 minutes in before you realize how little you've seen of Hannah. Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: And that's how you come to realize like, oh, you know, she's the reliable one. Katie Marinello: Right? Claire Fisher: come from a long line for the reliable Katie Marinello: Yes. Claire Fisher: our grandmother once famously locked herself in her office closet because she saw one of her brothers-in-law [01:02:00] coming down the street and she had already had too many phone calls from needy relatives that Katie Marinello: Right, Claire Fisher: day. Katie Marinello: right. Claire Fisher: Nowadays we have healthier ways to build boundaries, but the door to your office supply closet is a boundary of a type. It's a physical Katie Marinello: It's not like boundaries have gotten any easier to set and you never see Hannah set them. That's the thing. There's no indication that she's going to change the way she interacts with her family. It's simply that her husband has decided he likes that about her Claire Fisher: Yeah, Katie Marinello: and they're in a better place that the third Thanksgiving would, again, there's no indication that she knows that they were ever in a bad place necessarily. I mean, she knows that he's gotten distant. Claire Fisher: yeah. But she's someone who will carry on regardless. I mean, she had children without. Mickey and she could live without Elliot, Katie Marinello: Mm-hmm. Claire Fisher: so that's why he's upset, saying that he's needed. Um, that's a gift though. It's a gift to have someone who can take care of you, [01:03:00] and people need to appreciate that Katie Marinello: Right, Claire Fisher: ones Katie Marinello: right. Okay. Claire Fisher: it for granted Katie Marinello: Agreed. Claire Fisher: anyway. Katie Marinello: Anyway, so unfortunately we've talked for a very long time and I have said very little about Carrie Fisher because she's just not in this movie very much. Claire Fisher: movie very Katie Marinello: How do we feel about her agency For what little we do get to see? Claire Fisher: Three hots layers maybe. Katie Marinello: Yeah, I could go up to four maybe. 'cause I mean, she is. Taking control of her career, starting a business, you know, not letting her, I mean, I guess in theory, not letting her relationship with Holly ruin her chance at love with this married architect. Um, yeah, three three's fine. Claire Fisher: Mm-hmm. Katie Marinello: Yeah. Claire Fisher: . So next time we will be talking about Hollywood Vice Squad. Have you heard of this movie? Katie Marinello: No. Have you? Claire Fisher: have I. Katie Marinello: All [01:04:00] right, well, there we go. Then Claire Fisher: It is apparently available on hoopla, which at least saves us all a trip to the high seas. Katie Marinello: So until then, just remember if my life wasn't funny, it would just be true. Claire Fisher: and that's unacceptable. Katie Marinello: Goodnight. Claire Fisher: Goodnight. Katie Marinello: Thanks for listening to another episode of Carried Far, far Away. This podcast is hosted, produced, edited re-edited obsessed over and loved by Katie Marinello and Claire Fisher. You can follow the show on Facebook and Instagram at carriedawaypod You can email us at awaycarriedpod@gmail.com You can follow Claire deadfictionalgirlfriends and Katie katiedaway We are proud to be part of the 12 24 network. You can join fans and creators from the Network on Discord by clicking the link in the show notes. All clips used in this podcast are done so under the protection of fair use. Have a wonderful week, and may the force be with you. ​ Katie Marinello: [01:05:00] And now our space, grandma wisdom of the week. claire-fisher--she-her-_2_01-12-2025_202407: What I always want to tell young people Pay attention. This isn't going to happen again. Katie Marinello: Barbara Hershey was sometimes called Barbara Seagull after she killed a seagull during one of her movies. Um, is an actress who's been working for 50 years. Claire Fisher: Wait, what the Katie Marinello: Oh, did you want me to talk more about that? Claire Fisher: No, no. We're good. We're good. Okay. Carry on. You and I have never killed a seagull though. Uh, one Katie Marinello: come close Claire Fisher: been very close. Katie Marinello: and the occasional seagull has tried to kill us, so, you know, anyway.[01:06:00] Claire Fisher: She'll leave.