Zoe: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Autism and Theology Podcast. Brought to you by the Center for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen.

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Autism and Theology podcast. I'm Zoe, and it's great that you've joined us this week. This podcast is a space where we engage in the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, showing relevant resources and promoting ways that help faith and non-faith communities enable autistic people to flourish.

This podcast is run from the University of Aberdeen's Center for Autum in theology, which we shorten to cat today for this CATChat episode, I'm joined with Krysia and Ian, and we're going to be discussing the Church of England's, um, new document, fearfully and wonderfully made, understanding the wellbeing of disabled and neurodivergent clergy.

This research was conducted by. Um, Bourmouth University Academics, Dr. Alice Fry and Dr. Sally Lee with the research assistant Olivia Ze, and they spoke to 27 clergy or dialogue partners who are either disabled, neurodivergent, or both for the report.

We thought given this report has come out fairly recently, it would be really interesting to just discuss our points. Um, especially Krysia Ian have a lot of thoughts to share about it and yeah, we thought it would be an interesting one for our listeners. As always, these are just our thoughts. You're welcome to disagree, agree, get in touch with us if you have any thoughts that we haven't discussed.

Um, but yeah, Krysia or Ian, I wonder if you wanna. Yeah, kick us off and share your thoughts. Anything in particular that stood out about the report? 

Ian: Sure. I'll, I'll say I was really glad to see it. I think it was overall a really good report. Um, I, I, I, I have some minor quibbles with bits and pieces here and there, um, and some of what I read, I was, um.

I, I may be surprised by a little bit o only because it, it, I, you know, I'm sort of steeped in this, and so the fact that this is new to people is sometimes surprising, right? That, that, that there are people who aren't aware of some of this or haven't put any thought into this, and that's not a judgment.

Um, but it's just hard for me to remember, you know, five, 10 years ago before I really got into this, WW what. I didn't know or didn't even know. I didn't know. Um, so it's, it's really good, [00:03:00] um, especially because it centers, uh, autistic and disabled voices. Um, it identifies several different themes, four different themes, uh, or four categories of themes, um, dealing with, uh, clergy life, uh, and life in the Church of England as a disabled or neurodivergent clergy person.

Um. And yeah, I just, I think it's, I think overall the quality is really good and it's an important witness. Uh, and I'll, I'll leave it at that and save my, um, critique for after Krysia has weighed in.

Krysia: Yeah, I think it's really important that we have research when I was really glad that someone has done this research, and I think some of the really good things I found about it was it echoed some of the research that I've done.

Someone we all quite know well, quite well at CAT, Dr. Naomi Jacobs has done as well, especially on this ideal minister, ideal clergy person. And that came from really quite strongly. Um, and I'm really glad that that exists. And I guess it's really great that we can sit and have a chat and go, oh yeah, it's like the research that we've done or that I've read, and really start to connect the dots in the conversation and further that idea of dialogue partners.

Um. I guess the other thing I quite liked about it was the insistence on training as well. Although I will come back and kind of add in more of my thoughts on that one later 'cause I can build on more from what being said. But for many years I've found. Some church bodies to be like, oh, we don't need kind of this expertise.

We don't need people to come in and talk to us. We don't need to start this conversation. 'cause it's seen as something not that we do. So the fact that there's something of a Church England document saying, you need to have a conversation about this. Although whether it will happen we know could take some time.

Lots of different things might get in the way, are likely to get in the way. But actually the fact that it's got to that point and it's been written down and I know that there are. Current training, things going on within the CofE, um, from other colleagues who are involved really gives me the thing that they could actually, from this, there might be the call for more really good high quality neurodiversity training by neurodivergent people and disability training by disabled people and actually bringing them together.

'cause there's so much in terms of the experiences that we have that overlap as well. 

Zoe: Yeah, I think I definitely agree with the, like it's interesting seeing the findings and the themes and seeing like how much they resonate with research going on in the center. Um, like even just like the stuff about barriers to discernment, you know, we've got Harry researching autism and ministry and some of what comes into that as your sort of ideal minister and like you've both kind of touched on.

So I think it's really, it's that kind of fun moment when things click into place and you're like. A lot of people are actually thinking [00:06:00] these things and finding these things, and sometimes you need like more than one person shouting about it. And it's, again, it's also that point of saturation. Like clearly these are issues.

If multiple people are saying it, like, it becomes like more and more difficult to just brush experiences under the rug. Um, when like multiple, it's coming from multiple voices, multiple angles, multiple, um. Denominations even like, it's not just the Church of England issue, it's not just like, um, a Church of Scotland issue or whatever else.

Like it's a broad societal problem that's seeping into churches, which is wrong because churches should be a space of welcoming. Um, and yeah, also just that idea of like. Research does make people listen, and it's sad that people don't listen enough to individual voices because like it should be enough for one person, a congregation to say, oh, I'm struggling with this.

Like, or one person's experience to be like, this was not okay. But the harsh reality of it is that people don't always listen to that one voice. So yeah, to have like, as you both said, like have this clear piece of research that's been done, um, like fairly rigorously, like that feels like a big step forward and yeah, like as Krysia, you touched on, you've.

I've got to listen to that more because it's an official document by the Church of England. And as much as I'm not saying that's right, that that should be the case, like when you've got like a stamp of approval and a big organization, it does create almost more like accountability for churches. Like if you're not doing the right thing, you've really messed up when there's an official document telling you what to do, I guess.

Krysia: But I guess also, and it's probably one of the. A frustration I have more broadly with the field of research we're in. The fact that there's other people who found this stuff and it's not necessarily directly cited in the document makes me think actually we, we still have more to do in terms of how we foster dialogue.

And that's not to be overly critical, but it's kind of a stance at what we are doing across disability studies, sociology, neurodiversity studies, and theology. It really calls for us to talk to each other, which is something I'm quite passionate about and I'm really glad that on this. Podcast, we are quite good at going and pulling everything together and able to have those conversations so you know, if listeners know people who perhaps we should be reading or perhaps we, you know, could discuss things or pull stuff in, it's almost an open call to you as well, because we are aware, we know lots of stuff from our positions, but not necessarily from every single position.

And I guess also that the fact that it's been written down before. And it's still not being taken seriously. Even as research, particularly thinking about other research that had been done prior to this [00:09:00] makes me think that it's not just the fact, it's research, which helps, it gets taken seriously. It's research when you've jumped through certain hoops and got certain branding on it as well.

So it's really good that it's there, but it's a critique of the whole system of. How we've got to this point rather than the actual findings or how it's been done, if that makes sense. 

Zoe: Yeah. I suppose what we're saying, it's like pros and cons of the organizational thing. It's like on one hand it's great 'cause it'll be taken seriously, but on the other hand it's like, hmm, this shouldn't be the way things work either.

Um, but yeah, I really like what you said, Krysia. No one gets it right. We'll obviously miss voices that we should be engaging with and that's something I hope that. Yeah. People feel they can call us out on and, um, yeah. Address. Yeah. Yeah. I dunno if you have any more thoughts. 

Ian: Yeah, I, I, I mean, I agree with all of this.

The, the, the, the approach is very much sort of, um, starting from scratch, so to speak. I, I, you know, they conducted interviews. They conducted research. There's a lot more that they could have cited, which would've been awesome. Um, but also. At least they're studying it, right? At least they're talking to people who have gone through this.

At least this, this does. This does make specific recommendations to specific bodies and entities in the Church of England that I think even if they aren't immediately followed, at least raise that bar of awareness. Um, it does raise some really valid points. Um, you know, this idea that there is no normatives.

Set of gifts or skills for pastoral ministry applies beyond just a disability and neurodivergence perspective, right. We have, everyone has different gifts for ministry and every, every ordained minister is going to be good at different stuff. Right. Um, so I, I think we have to have a broader understanding, unfortunately, than we do of what ordained ministry is supposed to look like.

Um. I'll just say a couple of things. A a couple of minor critiques that I had. One, um, they use. In the headings for some of the themes, they use misapplications of scripture, right? So places where scripture has been used harmfully and they are counting on someone cl reading closely enough to realize that's what they're doing.

And I think with a 70 some page document. PDF document. Um, you're hoping that a lot of people read this, and let's be honest, not everyone is reading that closely. So I wish that they had not done that, to be honest, because even though that's true, right? That these, that scripture has been misapplied and misused, uh, in some ways against disabled people, I think some people are gonna skim this and think, oh yeah, um, my strength has made perfect in weakness.

That's a great theological framing for disability and like. No, I don't think so. Um, [00:12:00] I, I have, I have issues with that particular framing. Um, and then there's, yeah, so, and then there's people that they talk about diagnosis and disability language and the, the sort of insufficiency some people feel with language sometimes, which has to do with recency of diagnosis.

Um, there's a lot in there. There's a lot of good stuff. There's a lot that resonates even with me from my experience, um, on the other side of the pond in a different denomination or, uh, affiliated denomination. So I, I, I think this is really, really useful for a lot of different contexts, thinking about how we go through discernment and formation for ordained ministry, and are we actually creating space for all.

Different types of people, including disabled people. Um, and the answer unfortunately is no. But this is a step in that direction. So I, I'm, I'm pleased it exists. 

Zoe: Yeah. It was funny you say that about the language that's used because when I was like initially looking through it and saying that like, my strength has made perfect and weakness, and in the beginning was the words, I was a bit like, oh, where are they gonna go with this?

Like, that's an interests. It's a shame that that's like the immediate, I guess they've maybe written it, not thinking about what your immediate reaction is, or maybe they have done it that way so that you then become more engaged. But yeah, it is an interesting, when we're trying to be like really clear about stuff, it maybe would've just been more helpful to say ableism and models of oppression and just like call a spade a spade, maybe.

I don't know. Maybe that's not the right wording, but I just say it as it is rather than like. Yes, be clever. 

Krysia: Yeah, because I guess that's what, coming from somebody who's done quite a little work in social sciences, we do call a spade a spade. We do say ableism. We do say oppression. And I think there sometimes words from my experience, quite a few churches are not very comfortable saying, um, Ian is nodding his head at me.

So I'm glad it's not just me that thinks that, um. I know other people who I work with think the same as well. And I think hopefully from having some of this written down in literature as well as the fact that there are other people who are writing great papers, having podcast conversations like we are, we can start to actually call a spade a spade properly to have those conversations, um, to be able to move things forward.

In a way that we are not just prioritizing certain voices or kind of stepping around the problem in a way that we're not actually solving it. Hopefully this is a way to help along with all the other great work that's going on at CAT and outside of cat, um, to keep pushing it forward. And I guess the other thing that I really noticed was actually there's a lot of parallel findings from neurodivergent clergy that [00:15:00] as when we think quite broadly and disabled clergy.

A lot of the same experiences seem to happen with congregants and people in churches as well, and I think that's really shows you there to use a really posh word, triangulate it. So the fact that there's, that mirror tells us that actually it's not a a one time problem. This is like we've said before, but actually it's a broader thing in terms of the ideal worshiper, the ideal churchgoer, the ideal minister building on that kind of language.

We've spoken about before.

Zoe: Yeah, 

Krysia: and I think like another thing I appreciate along with that is that they've not just like stated these things, but there is like clearly a plan in place to try and make a difference and take some actions as a result, like, um. They're obviously doing a lot more training. They've got like their disability, um, projects going on and like I've seen on like job ads that they're like recruiting disability program officers and stuff.

Like clearly this is the start of really, really trying to do something and I think I appreciate that, that it's like so often like disability and neurodiversity theology we see like kind of tokenistic stuff. It's like identifying a problem and maybe like a bit of a solution, but nothing that's actually like.

Really gonna do much, so I think it is cool to see that there, this is part of a bigger picture and I really hope that, yeah, like as kinda said, it's like starting something, um. And creating more change in churches as needed and Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. And I think one thing I would like to see, which I think was outside the scope of the report, but this is just me putting in a, a top on something personally I would like to see is when we have this training, it would be really good to evaluate it and see how to properly, um. Keep a feedback cycle going and making sure it's properly grounded in disabled, neuro divergent people's experiences rather than someone flying in from the outside, bringing up your token person to kind of stand at the front and say a few words, which I've done before, uncomfortably.

And then kind of toll them off and then they know they'd be the expert. Actually, what we want is properly ground roots grassroots, and there's already quite a few kind of movements already going on, particularly within the Church of England space. But I would hazard that when we look at the church more broadly, thinking of all denominations as going to be, um, effectively disabled people's movements within them.

And I would hope that any training would kind of

take, kind of harness some of the move the movement, these the, you have to cut that bit 'cause I can't. Get my words out [00:18:00] today, would harness some of the traction some of these movements have you used. And rather than kind of taking things off people or kind of an expert coming in, actually work with the people on the ground who really know what's going on.

And who've been doing the Neurodivergent theology. The crip theology, who've been working, doing conferences. Lobbying churches doing activism to actually be able to take advantage, not take advantage isn't the right word, but to really build on the fruits, to use a spiritual word that are already there, because a lot of it is already in plain sight.

We are just not necessarily looking in the right way. In terms of the, again, it comes down to speaking the authoritative. A person who looks like they're going to be taken seriously. Actually a lot of the time it's already there, but they're in a person that we might not necessarily think they have something really important to give.

Ian: I think, I mean the, the, the biggest takeaway I have and what this report does touch on a few different times is a theology of the body, right? That we are all members of the body, we all belong, we all have a role to play. And, um, and we deny that to our shame and to our own detriment, right? And so. This is, this is a step in the right direction in terms of identifying some of those barriers that exist for certain people who don't fit a specific mold of what we expect clergy to look like.

But clergy are all, um, are all. Different members of the body themselves. Right? Um, to stretch that analogy, pesti breaking point, like not every clergy person fills exactly the same function because not every parish has the same set of expectations, and some of those expectations need to be challenged, right?

Sometimes you need to say, actually. You don't need a clergy person to do this. You can do this yourself, or, or it's, it's better if this comes organically from the laity or, um, you don't currently have a clergy person who can do this. So if it's important enough to be done, then someone else has to do it right.

Um, but those gifts, if it's, if it's that vital, those gifts exist already in the congregation. And so a, a, a real true theology of the body moving beyond just this. Lovely metaphor. Um, but actually enacting it in practice and in the way that we treat each other in the church means not just including, not just accepting, but valuing everyone for the gifts and the, and the, and the, and the, um, the, the, the charisms that they have personally.

Even if that doesn't look like we expect from someone filling that particular role.[00:21:00] 

I think that's a really interesting point to like end the discussion and hopefully leave our listeners with some reflections. , But yeah, it's been really fascinating discussing that, and I like what 

Krysia said.

Like I wonder if we can come back and like do a bit of a, like, discussion on what actually happens at the result and as a result of this, maybe in like a year's time or whatever, um. But yeah, um, the link to the report will be in the show notes if you wanna have a read of it. It is a really interesting read just to see what they've done and there's some summaries and stuff as well.

Um, but yeah, thank you all for listening and. As always, you are welcome to email  us at cat@abdn.ac.uk , even if it's just to say hi or if you have any questions, we'd love to hear from you, and you can also follow us on social media at Autism Theology.

Thank you for listening to the Autism and Theology Podcast. If you have any questions for us or just wanna say hi, please email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on Twitter at Autism Theology.