Safe Travels

North Cascades Park Ranger Anna Vornholt joined the podcast to chat about the natural features and ecosystems of the North Cascades! We discussed glaciers, glacial melt, the parks rain shadow, old growth forests and more.

Ranger Anna is so great to talk with. She will join us again next week to talk about bears, bear safety and general wildlife within the park.

You can also watch this podcast on our YouTube channel: youtube.com/@safetravelspod
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Creators and Guests

Host
Joey Liberatore

What is Safe Travels?

Safe Travels explores National Parks and wild places through in-depth conversations with the people who know them best - park rangers, scientists, biologists, geologists, archaeologists, and conservationists.

Each episode goes beyond travel tips to uncover the science, history, wildlife, and conservation stories that bring these landscapes to life.

Hosted by Joey Liberatore, Safe Travels Pod turns expert insight into engaging, accessible conversations - helping listeners experience public lands with deeper understanding and appreciation.

Speaker 1:

Everyone. Welcome into the Safe Travels podcast. My name is Joey. Today, we are at North Cascades National Park in Northern Washington, and we're joined by park ranger Anna Vornholt to talk about geology and the natural features of the North Cascades. Anna, how are you?

Speaker 2:

I'm good. Thanks.

Speaker 1:

Well, this national park is absolutely beautiful. It is incredible to walk through. It's incredible to explore. How has your journey been getting to this park as a park ranger? Did you start anywhere else?

Speaker 1:

What was it like getting to to to North Cascades?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. It was kind of a long journey for me. I started out, my career with the park service started at I was an intern at Grand Teton National Park, and it kind of blew me away that people could live and work in some of the most beautiful and special places in the country. I was like, how do I do this? So I've really been working throughout my career to find ways that I can help people connect with these awesome places.

Speaker 2:

So I worked seasonally for a number of years kind of traveling all around to different parks before ending up here 5 years ago.

Speaker 1:

It's interesting that you started at Grand Teton. This park kinda reminded me in some ways of Grand Teton with the jagged edged mountains and the glaciers. Mhmm. Has there been any parks you've worked on that are or worked at that are drastically different than, you know, a a glacially formed park?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I started my first job actually as a park ranger wearing the uniform was at Capitol Reef National Park in Utah. So very different kind of high desert environment. Very very beautiful, but moving here where there's forests and lots of water and mountains definitely, the place that I wanna be.

Speaker 1:

We have this beautiful scenic around us at one of the campgrounds. It is really beautiful here. I mean, if you step outside of this forest that we're currently in, you're surrounded by these amazing mountains that are all snow capped right now in June which is crazy surprising to me especially being from Southern California to see snow especially this deep is amazing right now.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. It's definitely interesting where where it's early June and it feels like summer. It's supposed to be in the eighties down here this week, but it's still quite wintry up in the mountains. It's normal for us to have feet of snow that linger into, like, early July is pretty typical.

Speaker 1:

Wow. We were laughing off camera, before we started this about my last park that was at is that valley, and they get 2 inches of rain per year. And I drove in on Wednesday, and there was a board inside the visitor center that said, today's rainfall, 3 inches so far. Yeah. It's a it's incredible the amount of rain here.

Speaker 2:

Quite different. And we've had kind of a rainy last month, a little bit more rainy than typical. But in this environment, we could get 80 or a 100 inches a year of rain.

Speaker 1:

That's incredible. Yeah. Well, we're gonna do a couple of episodes. We're gonna focus on geology here in this one and then we'll do bears and bear safety, in the next episode. But I wanna start with, the North Cascades National Park Complex.

Speaker 1:

The interagency workings that go on here. Can you kind of explain that process and the different forest management versus the national parks that are here?

Speaker 2:

Sure. So the North Cascades National Park Service Complex, we're actually made up of 3 different units. So we have North Cascades National Park and we have 2 recreation areas, Ross Lake National Recreation Area and Lake Chelan National Recreation Area. So all of those are managed by the National Park Service. So, like, the visitor center that you went to, the North Cascades Visitor Center, that's for the national park and the national recreation areas within the complex.

Speaker 2:

There are some differences with what you can do recreationally and a few management differences in recreation areas versus National Park, but they're all kind of under that same umbrella. We're also part of the Greater North Cascades ecosystem, which extends beyond the National Park Complex boundaries. And there are national forests really on both sides of us that are part of that ecosystem as well that are managed by the US Forest Service.

Speaker 1:

That's really interesting. And when you're driving, the main highway in is highway 20.

Speaker 2:

Mhmm.

Speaker 1:

And that splits kind of the boundary of both the north and southern parts of the park. Correct?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Yeah. So it's kind of the the you know, when you look around at these mountains, there's not a lot of ways you can easily travel through them, but state route twenty follows the Skagit River corridor, and does in fact cut the park kind of in half like you said.

Speaker 1:

You just mentioned that some of the access into the actual national park itself is difficult. There's really only one road that you that leads into it and, you know, a lot of the year it's blocked due to snowfall. Can you talk about that and the preservation and, how the national parks really protects the actual national park land itself?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So the when this park was established 55 years ago, those recreations areas were kind of put in place to allow for some of the different use in the area. In In the national park proper, it's mostly designated wilderness. It's about 99% designated wilderness in the national park. So no roads that go in there except for the Cascade River Road that kind of dead ends in the park.

Speaker 2:

I would say it's prima predominantly a wilderness park with lots of hiking trails. 400 miles of hiking trails. Does that kinda answer your question?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Absolutely. That's amazing. So let's start talking about some of the the natural features of the park and beginning with glaciers, which is a huge part of the formation of the park. How have glaciers played a, you know, as significant of a role as as they have in in building this amazing place?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So in a couple of different ways. So glaciers essentially are these, like, massive bodies of ice that have formed over 100 or 1000 of years and are slowly moving downhill. I'm really kind of like simplifying this but essentially snow piles up for years years years, accumulates that pressure and that weight, eventually condenses it into ice and they slowly start to move through the landscape. And you can imagine if you have a gigantic body of ice that's moving through the landscape, it's like scraping up the rock along the way.

Speaker 2:

Water is trickling down into cracks and freezing and then expanding. Rocks are picked up and moved. So that really shaped the whole landscape here. You know, 10000 to 12000 years ago, this entire area was covered by a massive ice sheet that was over a mile thick.

Speaker 1:

So you

Speaker 2:

can imagine really sitting here if there was a mile of ice at on top of us. And that ice sheet really shapes like, the Skagit River Valley, shaped the mountains around here as well.

Speaker 1:

And I found it really interesting that when you look at the the rivers here or the lakes here, you know, in Diablo Lake throughout the overlook, when you're looking down it's that beautiful green blue color and that's also because of the the glaciers and eroding away the the the nice rock that comes down too.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Exactly. So we, today, have a bunch of alpine glaciers. We have over 300 glaciers that are still in the park. They're all up generally pretty high in the mountains and they're still moving and eroding that rock like you said.

Speaker 2:

And during the warmer summer months, we get what we call glacial runoff. So basically water, melt water that comes off the glaciers and makes its way cascades down the mountains into the streams and the creeks, and gives us great fresh water. Around Diablo Lake, it's also eroding we call it glacial flowers. It's almost like mineral dust that makes its way down in that glacial runoff and in Diablo Lake it refracts that beautiful green color.

Speaker 1:

Obviously, the winters here can be are are extreme, with the amount of snowfall that you get. Do the glaciers ever build back or are they always melting? Are they always gonna be in this state that they currently are and and melting and getting smaller?

Speaker 2:

I think, over the lifespan of a glacier, you know, in the winter, it would be accumulating snow and growing bigger and then it would be melting at the end of the year, or throughout the summer. Right now, what we're seeing is that our glaciers are melting more than they're accumulating every year. So we do have scientists who have been studying the glacier since the 19 nineties going out and actually measuring how much is accumulating and how much, they're losing every year. And the trends have been that the glaciers have been getting smaller.

Speaker 1:

What's that process, like? How do they go out and measure it? And is it dangerous for scientists to go out there? And and how do they do it?

Speaker 2:

Well, I'm not an expert on this so I I haven't been out on it, you know, any of these glacier studies myself, but essentially they're they're helicoptering usually or potentially could be hiking up to places on specific glaciers that they've been looking at. And I believe there are 4 or 5 in the park that they've been looking at and monitoring, on this kind of yearly basis. And they've got all sorts of big tools where they're like drilling holes down and putting posts in to kind of measure the snowpack every year in the ice.

Speaker 1:

And so It's

Speaker 2:

very simple, you know, simplified version

Speaker 1:

of that but so obviously with a a warming climate and climate change around us, is that the main catalyst that's causing these to melt quicker than they can grow back during the winter?

Speaker 2:

I think it's definitely we're seeing that with the warmer temperatures that that inevitably has an effect. We're having less snow, in the winter. We're having more rain instead of snow and so that's gonna definitely impact how much our glaciers are accumulating every year. So definitely could also have implications for things that live down here that melt water in addition to like making Diablo Lake look really beautiful for us to see. It's also really important.

Speaker 2:

It's a really important source of water for everything that lives down here. In particular, I think about the Pacific salmon that spawn up in the Skagit River because it's this cold river environment that's ideal for them and a lot of that is because of the influence of the glaciers that are here. So there's definitely implications of that beyond just, the size of the glacier shrinking.

Speaker 1:

For our visitors out here when there is snow on the mountains, with the glaciers, you know, with the sun on them and and then melting maybe quicker than they used to, is does that create an increased chance of, like, an avalanche or is the avalanche chances still the same for visitors when they're out on the trails, and the snow is kinda melting with the sun?

Speaker 2:

Generally, during the summer when people are out hiking it's not the main time of avalanches. Usually, they're more of a concern in the winter. A lot of times when we're seeing that snow melts off quicker maybe the ice is actually more exposed than you'd be used to and when glaciers are moving we get crevasses and moats, these openings that form in the ice. So when there's not a big pack of snow covering that up, that definitely could they could be more exposed and could be dangerous. So, you know, if you're traveling in the mountains or traveling up to the glaciers, it's definitely important to have the skills and the the equipment you need to travel safely on them.

Speaker 1:

When you are visiting the park, what's an easy way to to be able to spot a glacier and know that it's a glacier and not just a a snow field? Is there any particular way that you can do so?

Speaker 2:

It's a little tough like this time of year when there still is snow in the mountain because, when there's still snow in the mountains because they're covered up. But actually from the North Cascades visitor center, there's a really nice boardwalk you can take just behind it, which you'll have to do while you're here. And you can look up at the Pickett range, which is the super rugged mountain range. And there's actually a glacier that you can see up there. So covered in snow right now, but the easiest way to see a glacier would be to walk out on that boardwalk and check it out.

Speaker 1:

So we talked a lot about the higher elevations in the park so far with the glaciers and the snowfall. Moving down, you have these amazing beautiful forests that are covered in moss and other things. One of the cool things here is there's old growth forests here. What's a way people can recognize that there may be in an old growth forest first, you know, a forest that's newer in age and and what exactly is an old growth forest?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So old growth forest, so they have old big trees that have been growing for 100 if not 1000 of years, but they're a little bit more complex than just having old big trees. So if someone is hiking in a forest, I think you can, look around you but also be looking up and looking down and seeing those different layers in the forest. So are you seeing, down logs like we have kind of around us that are decomposing on the forest floor? Are you seeing, like, newer, shorter growth and the tall canopy trees?

Speaker 2:

That layer that you would see is kind of an indicator that you're in those old growth forests. Also, we tend to see a lot of standing dead trees or snags that are really important habitat for animals when you're in old growth forests. In addition to the, you know, gigantic trees, which around here we have the western red cedar and the Douglas fir that get really huge 100 of years old.

Speaker 1:

And what causes them to no longer become an old growth forest maybe? Is it is it fires? Is fires the biggest cause of them maybe, you know, restarting and not having that old growth features? Or are they always old growth even if there is something that impacts them, and they grow back?

Speaker 2:

Well, that's a good question. I'm not sure I'm not sure of the answer to that. I think when you're looking at forest succession in general, forests are gonna continue to grow until there's some event that kind of stops that. Whether historically around here, it could have been logging that affected that. It could be fire, but that would kind of stop that natural succession through the forest.

Speaker 1:

What are some of the, characteristics in the forest in the North Cascades that make them special maybe, you know, compared to other forests that are around the country?

Speaker 2:

I think one thing just in general about North Cascades that's really special because we have, as you touched on thinking about the mountains, this really drastic difference in elevation as you're going up and through the park. You know, from here, we're at about 500 feet above sea level, and we have mountains that go over 9,000 feet. So we end up having, a real diverse variety of forests and habitats. So if you were to walk all the way up the mountain, you'd actually be walking through different types of forest, then eventually getting to the subalpine where it's kind of open meadow before going to the alpine glaciers. And then on the eastern side of the park, it's much drier.

Speaker 2:

We have a rain shadow effect. So it's a different type of forest that's actually over on the east. So a lot of, biodiversity just because we have so many different habitats.

Speaker 1:

I'm glad you mentioned the rain shadow because that's a really interesting concept that does affect a lot of parks, in the country. How does it particularly affect the east side of the park? And is it is it this is it the other side of the park that is causing the rain shadow?

Speaker 2:

So the rain shadow would be here where we are. We're on the western side of the park here at Newhalem. We're getting a lot of weather influence from like maritime weather, stuff that's coming off of the ocean and coming here and dumping all of that rain that we were talking about here. As those clouds kind of make their way up the mountain and dump rain then eventually snow, the mountains actually kind of block that precipitation from going on the east side. So the eastern side of the mountains is really in the shadow not affected by rain if that makes sense.

Speaker 2:

Kind of simplifying it but

Speaker 1:

And you touched on a little bit. What type of differences in terms of, species of plants and maybe berries grow on the eastern side of the park versus the western side of the park because of that rainfall?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So on the western side of the park where we are, kind of like I mentioned, in this area, we have the kind of western redcedar, Douglas fir, older growth forest, lots of moss around, lots of ferns, lots of berries. On the east side, there is a lot more of the ponderosa pine forest, so not as thick underbrush. Ponderosa pine and other species over there are maybe a little bit more adapted to fire. So just different different tree species.

Speaker 1:

And how crucial is fire in this park? How is it affecting it on a on a annual basis?

Speaker 2:

To some extent, you know, fire is a natural part of the ecosystem here. It's fairly regular now that we get fires every year. I mean, with the climate getting warmer, the changes that we're seeing, the impacts to rain and snow, we're definitely seeing fires every year, and and big fires as well.

Speaker 1:

I know we preach not to go off trail when you're hiking through any environment, but when you do, what are the ramifications for the forest when when visitors do decide to go off trail or find something out in the forest that they wanna go explore in?

Speaker 2:

It depends on what environment you're in, but always, you know, when you are going off trail, when you're walking on areas that aren't like those durable hard surfaces when you're walking on plants, that's definitely gonna have an impact. If you were, for instance, hiking above tree line here in the subalpine, like I mentioned, that's kind of these beautiful open meadows, lots of really small plants that are really hardy. They've adapted to live in this kind of extreme environment where they're getting really cold temperatures, they're getting tons of snow, and they've adapted to live there. However, they're not as adapted to withstand being trampled by multiple feet, over the course of a summer. And so we see when people, especially in kind of environments like that where we have those sensitive plants walking off trail, they could be creating their own social trails throughout the area that have a big impact.

Speaker 2:

So in general, best practices are to stay on trails or other durable surfaces.

Speaker 1:

Do you have a a favorite part of the forest here in the park that you like to go exploring in?

Speaker 2:

Oh, man. That's really hard. I feel like whenever people ask me what my favorite trailers or my favorite thing is, it's always just the last place that I've been. So that one was really great. So that's really tough.

Speaker 2:

I really love, yeah, I'm not sure. That's that's the hardest question that you've asked me.

Speaker 1:

Is there is there a specific trail that kinda shows off the entirety of the forest? So people really wanna get immersed with the forest here and see some of the species of plant that you have mentioned. Is there a trail here that really, lends its hand to that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So specifically, if you're looking for kind of those older growth forests, those big trees, we've got a really nice trail just 5 minutes from here in the town of Newhalem called the Trail of Cedars where you can see a lot of huge old growth western red cedars. Other place that you can see kind of that older big forest would be Thunder Creek Trail near Diablo Lake, and the Big Beaver Trail which is off of a drainage that feeds into Ross Lake. Some really big trees as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. You mentioned already, but the the vertical relief in this park is pretty incredible because we're at, you know, 500 feet above sea level now and then as you mentioned 9,000 foot mountains cascading around us. And, what are some of those iconic peaks in the park that people, you know, seek when they when they come here?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So the the picket range that I mentioned is really beautiful and, you can see it just from the visitor center and you can look up there and see really rugged area that there aren't any trails up there. So the people that are going up there are generally mountaineers. Mhmm. So that's a pretty unique thing, I think, to get to see that really wild area.

Speaker 2:

Let's see. For other we have so many mountains. We're kind of known as this park that has almost a sea of peaks because if you get up high, you just see mountains after mountains after mountains after mountains. So I wouldn't say there's any one that's like, this is the one mountain in North Cascades that you have to see. I feel like it's really taking it as a whole and seeing that whole landscape that makes it so dramatic.

Speaker 1:

One of the nicknames for the park is the, American Swiss Alps. Why is it given that nickname?

Speaker 2:

I've never been to the Alps so I don't know if it compares, or or where that came specifically, but I think it comes from that idea that we have, just this, like, pristine mountain wilderness.

Speaker 1:

When you look around, this park, you're really immersed in, like, a a panoramic view of everything. What are some steps visitors can take just to, like, enjoy it? Take, you know, a step away from maybe a crowd if you're at an overlook. What advice would you give them if they really wanna take in the park? Where should they go and and how should they immerse themselves?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I think, for everyone that's coming through just driving along State Route 20 because it follows that Skagit River corridor, there's just some fantastic views that you can easily get right from the car or taking a short walk. Daba Lake Overlook, which you've already been to, is is our most popular overlook. Popular for a reason. Right?

Speaker 2:

It's absolutely beautiful with that lake and the mountains all around. But as I mentioned, you know, we do have a lot of wilderness. And we are a park that lends itself really well to hiking with over 400 miles of trails. So I think anytime you're gonna get off of the road and hike through the forest or hike up into the mountains is gonna be a really great way to experience the park.

Speaker 1:

What are, the park's messages to visitors that come here? In order to keep themselves safe, wildlife safe, and the park, what are some of the main messages that the park, tries to provide to visitors when they come here?

Speaker 2:

I think one of the most important things that people can do before coming here is to to plan. Plan ahead. You know, we have, a park website that has a lot of great information. We've also got the National Park Service app. Have you seen that or used that on?

Speaker 1:

I have. Yeah. Okay. That's great.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So that's a really great way to just kind of understand some of the places that you wanna go and some of the hikes that you might wanna do. We also, you know, in the summer we have the visitor center open and rangers who are super excited to help people plan their trips. I think one of the most important things people can do is just know what to expect and do some planning before coming here.

Speaker 1:

One thing that I definitely recommend is if you come here, go to the visitor center and watch the video that you have in the the movie theater. It is incredible. It is so good.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. That's actually a new movie that we just started showing this year and actually Katie did a lot to make that movie. Sorry, you're off the camera, but that was her project. So I gotta give you kudos, but

Speaker 1:

yes. It's so good.

Speaker 2:

It's a fantastic movie. We're really excited about it.

Speaker 1:

And it shows really cool ways that you can recreate beyond hiking here, with people, you know, taking kayaks out onto the lakes and rivers here. It's really a a great park to recreate beyond just hiking.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And I think, you know, some of those areas are a little bit more difficult to get to because you do have to go on trails or take boats out. So one thing that I think is really special about this place is that there are still these glimpses, like, behind the visitor center or different overlooks or that Cascade River Road where you can see into the mountainous wilderness even if you're not able to travel there yourself.

Speaker 1:

What are some of the things, that rangers are doing out in those protected wilderness areas in order to protect and and conserve those spots?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So we have a, we have a whole wilderness division who works on those backcountry trails and is has a permit system and kind of monitors the trails and helps people out there. We also have scientists in the park who are doing all sorts of different types of research and work in the park from glacier monitoring, which we just mentioned, to wildlife monitoring, all sorts of things.

Speaker 1:

Do you have any final thoughts or things that you wanna send, to the visitors that or potential visitors that are are watching and listening to this in order to give them one final encouragement to to visit the park?

Speaker 2:

Just come. It's so wonderful. I love it here. I'm so I'm very biased, but I think I think this place is really special and unique, and it might take a little bit of time to get out here and to to see that, but I definitely think it's worthwhile.

Speaker 1:

On our next episode, we're gonna talk about bears and bear safety, which is a really interesting topic, especially right now with grizzly bears coming back to the park. But for this episode, thanks so much.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Thanks.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for checking out this edition of the Safe Travels podcast. I really hope you enjoyed it. Anna is awesome and this park is absolutely gorgeous. It is a must see if you get the chance to head up into Northern Washington. If you like this type of content, make sure to like, comment, subscribe wherever you're watching or listening from.

Speaker 1:

And until next time, safe travels.