Interior Integration for Catholics

I. Join me as we discover explore all the elements of perfectionism, from its root causes to its surface manifestations, through an Internal Family Systems lens, grounded in a Catholic world view. Through poetry, quotes, research findings, personal examples and the current professional literature, I pull together many strands into a unified whole to help you deeply grasp the internal experience of perfectionism.

Show Notes

  1. Join me as we discover explore all the elements of perfectionism, from its root causes to its surface manifestations, through an Internal Family Systems lens, grounded in a Catholic world view.  Through poetry, quotes, research findings, personal examples and the current professional literature, I pull together many strands into a unified whole to help you deeply grasp the internal experience of perfectionism.
  2. Intro
    1. The Quintessential Persona    Leanna Smith
    1. We are together in this great adventure, this podcast, Interior Integration for Catholics, we are journeying together, and I am honored to be able to spend this time with you.  
    2. I am Dr. Peter Malinoski, clinical psychologist and passionate Catholic and together, we are taking on the tough topics that matter to you.  
    3. We bring the best of psychology and human formation and harmonize it with the perennial truths of the Catholic Faith.   
    4. Interior Integration for Catholics is part of our broader outreach, Souls and Hearts bringing the best of psychology grounded in a Catholic worldview to you and the rest of the world through our website
    5. Let's get into answering the questions -- the who, what, where, when, why, and how of perfectionism.  This is episode 85 of the Interior Integration for Catholics Podcast it's titled:  Perfectionism:  Who, What, Where, When, Why, and How
    6. Perfectionism -- a major, major problem for so many Catholics.   A major, major problem for so many of us.  Thomas Curran and Andrew Hill  2019 Psychological Bulletin Article:  Perfectionism Is Increasing Over Time: A Meta-Analysis of Birth Cohort Differences From 1989 to 2016
      1. reviewed dozens of studies from a 27 year timespan all using the same instrument  the Multidimensional Perfectionism Scale by Hewitt and Flett
      1. 164 study samples comprising more than 41,000 college students in the US, Canada and Great Britain between 1989 and 2016
      1. Results:  there is no doubt.  Perfectionism among college students is on the rise.  
        1. Between 1989 and 2016, 
          1. the scores for socially prescribed perfectionism —  or perceiving that other have excessive expectations of me — increased by 33%. 
          2. Other-oriented expectations — putting unrealistic expectations on others — went up 16%
          3. and self-oriented perfectionism — our irrational desire to be perfect — increased 10%

  1. The Who of Perfectionism -- the Parts
  2. The What of Perfectionism -- What is it?  What are the different kinds of perfectionism, what are the elements?
  3. Where Does Perfectionism Come From Within Us
  4. When Does Perfectionism Get Activated?
  5. Why Does Perfectionism Start and Why Does it Keep Going?
  6. How Do We Overcome Perfectionism?  How do we resolve it?  Not just a descriptive diagnosis, but a proscriptive conceptualization that gives a direction for healing, resolving the perfectionism.  Not just symptom management, this is your cross nonsense.  There are real crosses that God gives us. Yes.  But those crosses fit well.  The crosses we impose upon ourselves do not fit well.  
  1. What -- What is perfectionism?  You know that I want precise definitions when we dive into deep topics together.  I think it's ironic that there is a lot of unclear, sloppy thinking about perfectionism by perfectionists.  Shining a bright clear light on it.  
    1. Definition of Perfectionism
      1. Brene Brown:  The Gifts of Imperfection:  Perfectionism is a self-destructive and addictive belief system that fuels the primary thought: If I look perfect, live perfectly, and do everything perfectly, I can avoid or minimize painful feelings or shame, judgment and blame
      1. Marc Foley O.C.D.  Editor of Story of a Soul: Study Edition  There is an unhealthy striving for perfection which psychologists call perfectionism. Perfectionism is the state of being driven to achieve a standard of perfection in an area of life that is fueled by either the fear of failure or the need for approval. This unhealthy striving is not the type of perfection to which God calls us.
    4. So you may have perfectionistic parts that would like to challenge me on this.  Your perfectionistic parts may say to me
      1. So, Dr. Peter, Mr. Catholic Psychologist, you want us to have low standards, huh?  You think that would be better, for us to be lazy, to be weak, to take our ease, to relax, to give up the fight, to be mediocre, to be lukewarm, huh?  Is that what you are saying?  Didn't St. Jerome say:  Good, better, best, never let it rest, 'till your good is better, and your better's best
        1.  First off, let's start with your quote.  Often attributed to St. Jerome, but there's no evidence for it in his writings: 
          1. Fr. Horton addresses this alleged quote on his blog fauxtations.   September 26, 2016 post.  "Good, better, best: St. Jerome?"
            1. Oldest google books attribution is from 2009.  

            1. 1904 Dictionary of Modern Proverbs
            1. 1897 Christian Work: Illustrated Family Newspaper.  

            1. Others attribute it to Tim Duncan, NBA all-star player, often considered the greatest power forward of all time.  

          3. I want you to pursue excellence.  

      1. Perfectionism is not the same thing as striving for excellence or a commitment to self-improvement. There is a critical distinction between striving for excellence and perfectionism.   Let's discuss what perfectionism is not.   

      1. Brene Brown:  Perfectionism is not self-improvement./ Perfectionism is, at it’s core, about trying to earn approval and acceptance  Most perfectionists were raised being praised for achievement and performance (grades, manners, rule-following, people-pleasing, appearance, sports). Somewhere along the way, we adopted this dangerous and debilitating belief system: I am what I accomplish and how well I accomplish it. Please. Perform. Perfect. Healthy striving is self-focused – How can I improve? Perfectionism – is other focused – What will they think?” End quote.  
        1. What will they think?

      1. Brene Brown  Daring Greatly: How the Courage to be vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent and Lead:  “Perfectionism is not the same thing as striving for excellence. Perfectionism is not about healthy achievement and growth. Perfectionism is a defensive move. It’s the belief that if we do things perfectly and look perfect, we can minimize or avoid the pain of blame, judgment, and shame.” 

    5. Agnes M. Stairs, Smith, Zapolski, Combs, and Settles:  Clarifying the construct of perfectionism Assessment 2012  732 people
      1. 15 different perfectionism measures -- Factor analytic modeling
      1. Found nine different personality traits associated with perfectionism:  Need for Order, Need for Satisfaction of a Job Well Done, Details and Checking, Perfectionism toward Others, High Personal Standards, Black and White Thinking about Tasks, Perceived Pressure from Others, Dissatisfaction with Personal Performance, Reactivity to Mistakes.  

      1. 9 personality traits
        1. Order
          1.  I like things to be neat 

          1. Things should always be put away in their place 

          1. I like to be orderly in the way I do things

        1. Satisfaction
          1. I feel satisfied with my work after I do something well
          1. I get excited when I do a good job
          1. I feel great satisfaction when I feel I have perfected something

        1. Details and Checking
          1. I often check my work carefully to make sure there are no mistakes
          1. It takes me a long time to do something because I check my work

many times
  1. Perfectionism toward Others
    1. I have high standards for the people who are important to me
    1. I expect a lot from my friends
    1.  I expect others to excel at whatever they do
  5. High Standards
    1. I set extremely high standards for myself 

    1. I expect high levels of performance from myself
    1. I have very high goals
  8. Black and White Thinking about Tasks and Activities
    1. I will not do something if I cannot do it perfectly
    1. There’s no point in doing something if I cannot do it perfectly
  11. Perceived Pressure from Others
    1. People expect high levels of performance from me
    1. Others expect me to be perfect 

    1. I often feel that people make excessive demands of me
  14. Dissatisfaction
    1. It feels like my best is never good enough
    1.  I often don’t live up to my own standards
    1. I rarely feel that what I have done is good enough
  18. Reactivity to Mistakes
    1. When I make a mistake, I feel really bad 

    1. If one thing goes wrong, I feel that I cannot do anything right
    1. I feel like a complete failure if I do not do something perfectly
  21. Signs of Being a Perfectionist article last updated 11-05-2019
    1.  Not be able to perform a task unless they know they can do it perfectly.
    1. View the end product as the most important part of any undertaking. As a result, they may focus less on the process of learning or completing a task to the best of their ability. 

    1. Not see a task as finished until the result is perfect according to their standards.
    1. Procrastinate. People with perfectionism may not want to begin a task until they know they can do it perfectly.
    1. Take an excessive amount of time to complete a task that does not typically take others long to complete. 

  25. Examples of Perfectionistic Behaviors -- article last updated 11-05-2019
    1. Spending 30 minutes writing and rewriting a two-sentence email.
    1. Believing that missing two points on a test is a sign of failure.
    1. Difficulty being happy for others who are successful.
    1. Holding oneself to the standards of others' accomplishments or comparing oneself unfavorably and unrealistically to others.
    1. Skipping class or avoiding a chore because it is pointless to make an effort unless perfection can be achieved.
    1. Focusing on the end product rather than the process of learning.
    1. Avoiding playing a game or trying a new activity with friends for fear of being shown up as less than perfect.
  33. The Who of Perfectionism -- the Parts
    1. Definition of Parts:  Separate, independently operating personalities within us, each with own unique prominent needs, roles in our lives, emotions, body sensations, guiding beliefs and assumptions, typical thoughts, intentions, desires, attitudes, impulses, interpersonal style, and world view.  Each part also has an image of God and also its own approach to sexuality.  Robert Falconer calls them insiders.  You can also think of them as separate modes of operating if that is helpful.  

    1. Types of perfectionism -- Jay Early IFS therapist Self-Therapy Volume 3. 
      1. Four types of perfectionist parts --
        1. Not-enough perfectionist
        1. Creative Block perfectionist
        1. Control perfectionist
        1. Inner Critic
      6. Not-Enough perfectionist
        1. Always must do more on your projects -- not good enough yet.  

        1. Working right up to deadlines, perfecting.  

        1. Afraid to finish project because your perfectionistic parts believe this will expose your shortcomings and led to being judged  and ridiculed -- humiliation.  

      7. Creative Block Perfectionist
        1. Need to be perfect the first time
        1. Ideas are not good enough
        1. Fear of being judged and rejected.  

        1. Mike Litman:  You don't have to get it right.  You just have to get it going.  
          1. This podcast is an example.  Didn't know what I was doing.  Early episodes were very different.  Learning curve.  How many people listened?  Not many.  

      10. Control perfectionist
        1. World must be perfectly in control and in order.  

        1. I must always do the right thing.  

        1. I must always make the right choice
        1. Rigid control over behavior
          1. Saps vitality
          1. Obliterates sponteneity

        1. Need predictability to feel safe
      13. Inner Critic
        1. Enforces the goals of being perfect
          1. Judges and shames about your work, your life, your spiritual practices
          1. Labels you stupid, incompetent, sloppy, inadequate or bad.  

          1. Good intention:  to help you avoid being judged or shamed for mistakes.

        1. Types of Inner Critic:  Jay Earley  -- Transforming your Inner Critic.  Freedom from your Inner Critic.  
          1. Perfectionist
            1. This critic tries to get you to do things perfectly.
            1. It sets high standards for the things your produce, and has difficulty saying something is complete and letting it go out to represent your best work.
            1. It tries to make sure that you fit in and that you will not be judged or rejected.
            1. Its expectations probably reflect those of people who have been important to you in the past.
          6. Guilt-Tripper
            1. This critic is stuck in the past. It is unable to forgive you for wrongs you have done or people you have hurt.
            1. It is concerned about relationships and holds you to standards of behavior prescribed by your community, culture and family
            1. It tries to protect you from repeating past mistakes by making sure you never forget or feel free.
          10. Underminer
            1. This critic tries to undermine your self-confidence and self-esteem so that you won’t take risks.
            1. It makes direct attacks on your self-worth so that you will stay small and not take chances where you could be hurt or rejected.
            1. It is afraid of your being too big or too visible and not being able to tolerate judgment or failure.
          14. Destroyer
            1. It makes pervasive attacks on your fundamental self worth.
            1. It shames you and makes you feel inherently flawed and not entitled to basic understanding or respect.
            1. This most debilitating critic, comes from early life deprivation or trauma.
            1. It is motivated by a belief that it is safer not to exist.
          19. Molder
            1. This critic tries to get you to fit into a certain mold based on standards held by society, your culture or your family.
            1. It wants you to be liked and admired and to protect you from being abandoned, shamed or rejected.
            1. The Molder fears that the Rebel or the Free Spirit in you would act in ways that are unacceptable. So it keeps you from being in touch with and expressing your true nature.
          23. Taskmaster
            1. This critic wants you to work hard and be successful.
            1. It fears that you may be mediocre or lazy and will be judged a failure if it does not push you to keep going.
            1. Its pushing often activates a procrastinator or a rebel that fights against its harsh dictates.
          27. Inner Controller
            1. This critic tries to control your impulses: eating, drinking, sexual activity, etc.
            1. It is polarized with an Indulger –addict who it fears can get out of control at any moment.
            1. It tends to be harsh and shaming in an effort to protect you from yourself.
            1. It is motivated to try to make you a good person who is accepted and functions well in society.
    2. Three Main Manager Roles Contribute to Perfectionism in Catholics.  
      1. Often in serious Catholics there is a triumvirate of managers who govern the system if there is not sufficient self-energy.  
        1. Triumvirate   trium virum, genitive plural of tres viri "three men," from tres "three" (see three) + viri, plural of vir "man"  a group of three men holding power, in particular ( the First Triumvirate ) the unofficial coalition of Julius Caesar, Pompey, and Crassus in 60 BC and ( the Second Triumvirate ) a coalition formed by Antony, Lepidus, and Octavian in 43 BC.
          1. Standard Bearer, Primary Manager and the Inner Critic.  

      2. Talking only about Catholics here, Catholics who take their faith seriously.
      3. I'm going to simplify this down.  Three roles.   
      4. Most people are mostly blended most of the time.  
        1. Rare for someone to be really recollected at a natural level
        2. And most of the time with reasonably well functioning people, the blend is with a manager.  
          1. Managers are the parts who run our systems in such a ways as to proactively minimize exiles being activated and breaking through
          2. Managers handle the day-to-day activities
          3. Some of these managers are very, very competent, very good at what they do.  Efficient, effective. 
          4. They work strategically, with forethought and planning to keep in control of situations and relationships to minimize the likelihood of you being hurt.  They work really hard to keep you safe.
          5. controlling, striving, planning, caretaking, judging, 
          6. Can be pessimistic, self-critical, very demanding.  
      5.  Three major roles in perfectionism.  The standard bearer, the primary manager, and the internal critic.  
        1. Standard Bearer
          1. Definition of a Standard for a military unit -- Wikipedia:  A bright, colorful flag acting as a strong visual beacon to the soldiers of the unit -- -- it doesn't always have to be a flag.  The standard for a Roman Legion was their aquila -- their eagle.
            1. The standard of the Roman Legion, the eagle had quasi-religious importance to the Roman soldier, far beyond being merely a symbol of his legion. 

            1. To lose a standard was extremely grave, and the Roman military went to great lengths both to protect a standard and to recover it if it were lost

          1. Is the standard the deep and loving relationship with God?  Nope.
          2. Is the standard the close, intimate relationship with our Mother Mary?  Nyet.  
          3. What is the standard that the standard bearer carries aloft
            1. The standard is the unwritten list of rules and expectations that the standard bearer has come up with by his or her own limited vision, about what he or she things Gods wants from us.  

            1. The standard is the code of conduct that the standard bearer wishes to impose on all the parts
              1. The standard might be quite unreasonable, especially in the extreme cases of perfectionism and scrupulosity
              1. And the standard needs to be interpreted -- other parts are not deemed capable of deciphering the standard.  Oh no.  Who needs to decipher and interpret the standard?  That's right, you've got it -- the standard bearer. 

              1. In the tripartite Freudian model of the mind, The standard bearer corresponds to the superego.  

              1. The standard bearer wants to act in the role of conscience, giving directives to the system.
              1. Why?  To keep us safe and secure.  That's the goal.  Safe from internal enemies (such as exiles with their burdens -- especially shame -- the exiles with their burdens are Freud's Id) and external enemies.  Satan, demons, villains of all kinds 

              1. And also to keep us safe from God's Wrath.  Or God's Apathy.  Or God's disappointment.  Or Something Undesirable from God -- you like, like being smited with a thunderbolt.

          4. Good Boy in my system  IIC 71 -- A New and Better Way of Understanding Myself and Others
            1. If blended.  That's key if he blends with me, takes over with other managers, he will lapse into this role of being a standard bearer.  Otherwise, he's not like that.  

        2. Primary Manager
          1. This is a part that is blended and in charge almost all the time in fairly "well-adjusted people."  

          1. When there seems to be a consistent single "personality" you are often seeing what I call the primary manager part.  
            1. This part can have a lot of self-energy, and only blend to certain degree.  
            2. This part can also believe that it is essentially the self, or that it needs to function in the role of the self
              1. Primary manager parts either
                1. Doesn't trust the self
                1. Or forget.  Lapse back into old patterns
                1. Or get caught up when exiles are activated.  

          1. Collaborator in my system -- formerly the Competent One
        3. Inner Critic
          1. Evaluator in my system.  Formerly my Internal Critic.  
            1. My internal critic's attitude toward farms growing up in Wisconsin.  
              1. If I ever have a farm.  
              2. Now I have a farm.  Radical new views.  Never painted my barn.  

      6. How my parts work together on this podcast episode
        1. When I am blended and have taken over the self, I set the standards.  I speak for God. I am in the role of standard bearer.  

        1. When I am blended, I shielded Good Boy from the unreasonableness of his demands.  I goaded Collaborator, pressed him on to ever better performance.
        1. I am the workhorse.  Executing.  Trying to make it all happen  

        1. I'm a firefighter.  I get angry and rebel against the triumvirate of managers -- YouTube time.  
          1. Other firefighter activity -- Chocolate, video games, masturbation, porn, food, shopping, chocolate.  
          2. Backlash exacerbates the polarization.    
        2. I work to protect us.  
  34. Where Does Perfectionism Come From
    1. Perfectionism is a symptom.  It's an effect of a deeper issue. Still a problem in itself. 

    1. Curran and Hall:  Our findings suggest that self-oriented perfectionism, socially prescribed perfectionism, and other-oriented perfectionism have increased over the last 27 years. We speculate that this may be because, generally, American, Canadian, and British cultures have become more individualistic, materialistic, and socially antagonistic over this period, with young people now facing more competitive environments, more unrealistic expectations, and more anxious and controlling parents than generations before. 
    2. Pete Walker  “Perfectionism is the unparalleled defense for emotionally abandoned children. The existential unattainability of perfection saves the child from giving up, unless or until, scant success forces him to retreat into the depression of a dissociative disorder, or launches him hyperactively into an incipient conduct disorder. Perfectionism also provides a sense of meaning and direction for the powerless and unsupported child. In the guise of self-control, striving to be perfect offers a simulacrum of a sense of control. Self-control is also safer to pursue because abandoning parents typically reserve their severest punishment for children who are vocal about their negligence.” 
    3. Jay Earley:  Self-Therapy Vol. 3 chapter on perfectionism.  
      1. Fear
      2. Need for approval
      3. Marie Forleo, Everything is Figureoutable “Perfectionism at its core isn't about high standards. It's about fear. Fear of failure. Fear of looking stupid, fear of making a mistake, fear of being judged, criticized, and ridiculed. It's the fear that one simple fact might be true:  You're just not good enough.
      4. Michael Law  “At its root, perfectionism isn’t really about a deep love of being meticulous. It’s about fear. Fear of making a mistake. Fear of disappointing others. Fear of failure. Fear of success.”
    4. Hiding -- driven by shame.  Genesis 3.  
      1. Chinonye J. Chidolue  “Perfection is a faux. It’s a mask carved by our own poor esteem to hide who we really are and make others see what really isn’t us.” 
    5. But what's behind those?  Let's go deeper
      1. Shame.  Deep sense of fundamental inadequacy.  Not being loved.  Not being lovable.  Essentially flawed.  Being bad.  Unworthy.  

      1. Episodes 37-49
  1. When Does Perfectionism Get Activated?  
    1. Some are perfectionistic all the time
    2. Some are episodic. Some of the time.  Situation factors or internal factors activate Shame.  
    3. Fear
    4. Anger
    5. Shame is:  a primary emotion, a bodily reaction, a signal,  a judgement, and an action.  
  2. Why Does it Keep Going?
    1. Self Images
      1. Shame -- that is the main driver of perfectionism.  
        1. I am unacceptable as I am right now.  I have to engage in a self-improvement program.  
          1. That's what he took away from experience.  Not just taught, but construed.  
          2. The potential to become good enough to earn the love -- provides hope for the future in the short run.  
            1. But hamster on a wheel.  
            2. Breeds rebellion, acting out.  

    1. Perfectionistic parts always get what they don't want.  Winding up alienated, isolated, alone
      1. Glennon Doyle Melton  "We can choose to be perfect and admired or to be real and loved." 

      1. Ze Frank -- salty quote:  “Perfectionism may look good in his shiny shoes, but he's a bit of an asshole and no one invites him to their pool parties.” 

  3. How Do We Overcome Perfectionism?
    1. Standard Advice -- focused on symtpoms  Oregon Counseling
      1. Become more aware of your tendencies toward perfectionism
      1. Focus on the Positives
      1. Allow yourself to make mistakes
      1. Set more reasonable goals
      1. Learn how to receive Criticism
      1. Lower the pressure you put on yourself
      1. Focus on meaning over perfection
      1. Try not to procrastinate
      1. Cut out negative influences
      1. Go to therapy.  

    1. Others Sharon Martin, LCSW in California
      1. Practice self-compassion
      1. Adopt a growth mindset
      1. Instead of focusing on outcomes, enjoy the process
      1. Be true to yourself rather than trying to please everyone
      1. Be more assertive with your own needs
      1. Love your imperfect self.  

    1. Tanya Peterson Choosing
      1. Keep track of your thoughts
      1. Practice mindfulness
      1. Focus on your strengths
      1. Stop comparing yourself to others
      1. Find your own meaning and purpose
      1. Rekindle your sense of pleasure and gratitude
      1. Think about your life at age 100
      1. Let yourself experiment.  

    1. These are almost all symptom based approaches.  Superficial.  Likely to not get to the root cause.  Sound good.  
      1. Hard to accomplish though because of the perfectionism and its roots.  

    1. Two major types of approaches
      1. Treat perfectionism as an enemy to be ignored, dismissed, fought against, or overcome. \
        1. Byron Brown based on the Diamond Approach 1999 Souls without Shame.  

        1. Robert W. Firestone and colleagues in their Voice Therapy approach  Conquer your Inner Critical Voice
        1. Rick Carson in his 1983 book Taming Your Gremlin
        1. By far the approach most serious Catholic favor in dealing with perfectionism and scrupulosity
          1. Will power 

          1. Suppression
          1. Domination over the undesireable internal experience.  Triumph of the will!  Victory.  
            1. Never works.  Not for long.  And when it seems to work, it's unstable, tenuous, shaky.  

          1. Revenge of the repressed.  

          1. But what if perfectionism and the parts around it have something important to say to you?  

      1. Treat perfectionism as an ally to be seen, heard, to be accepted, befriended, understood, and ultimately transformed.  
        1. Hal and Sidra Stone based on Voice Dialogue,  1993 Embracing your inner critic: turning self-criticism into a creative asset
        2. Jay Earley and Bonnie Weiss based on Internal Family Systems therapy 2010 Self-therapy for your inner critic: transforming self-criticism into self-confidence
        3. Ann Weiser Cornell based on Inner Relationship Focusing in her 2005 book The Radical Acceptance of Everything
        4. Pat Allen also takes this approach in her 1995  book Art Is a Way of Knowing.[14] 
        5. These approaches see the inner critic as attempting to help or protect the person—but in a covert, distorted, or maladaptive way. This perspective makes it possible to connect with the critic and transform it over time into a helpful ally. 

      1. Earley's approach.   

      1. Getting to the root.  Shame IIC 37-49.  

      1. Engage with the parts burdened with shame.  

      1. Neural Networks -- one neural network 
        1. Dan Siegel's interpersonal neurobiology.  
          1. Lee Health IFS is considered a brain-based psychotherapy designed specifically to access and modify neural networks through intentional interactions via a guided meditative processes.  These brain based interactions are the key to helping create different pathways often referred to as “rewiring” or “remapping”.
          2. IEADP Foundation These processes serve to engage the brain stem, limbic system and prefrontal cortex simultaneously in the safe and emotional tolerable setting of the therapist’s office. This increase in the individual’s ability to stay in the window of tolerance while being present with strong emotional states, body sensations and memories allows the client to engage the “witnessing mind” and increases the response flexibility to the strong emotional states that previously would elicit eating disorder behaviors

  4. Experiential Exercise
  5. What did you think -- let me know call or text 317.567.9594. Also, if you have found great resources that were helpful for your scrupulosity or perfectionism let me know.  
  6. Next episode Episode 86, will come out on November 1, All Saints Day
    1. Scrupulosity --  I have such a different take -- Scrupulosity is what happens with perfectionism gets religion.  
      1. One more element that we haven't discussed that is so central to scrupulosity, that make scrupulosity much more than a religious spiritual perfectionism.  
      2. My own battle with scrupulosity.  
      3. Grandpa Roberts:  God helps those who help themselves.  
      4. Today we laid a foundation for understanding perfectionism.  Next episode, we get much more into Solutions for scruplosity and perfectionism.  

    1. Remember, you as a listener can call me on my cell any Tuesday or Thursday from 4:30 PM to 5:30 PM.  I've set that time aside for you.  317.567.9594.  (repeat) or email me at 
    2. Resilient Catholics Community.  84 on the waiting list.  Greater discussion of that in the last episode, episode 84.  We have been working through the Individual Results Sheet for dozens of RCC members -- amazed at how our Initial Measures Kit can provoke all kinds of new thinking about their parts and their internal worlds.  Work with Catholic Standard Bearers, Primary Managers and Inner Critics
    3. Catholic therapists or therapists in training -- If you are really interested in Internal Family System and you want to be with me and other Catholic therapists, working on your human formation with your colleagues, The Interior Therapist Community is for you.  We have a couple more spots open in the last Foundations Experiential Group for the fall of 2021, so check out all our offerings at 

What is Interior Integration for Catholics?

In the Interior Integration for Catholics podcast, together, we seek fundamental transformation in our lives through human formation, via Internal Family Systems approaches grounded in a Catholic worldview. Join us as we sail through uncharted waters, seizing the opportunities for psychological and spiritual growth and increasing resilience in the natural and spiritual realms. With a clear takeaway message and one action in each weekly episode, you can move from dreading what is happening to you to rising above it. Join us on Mondays for new episodes. You can also check out the Resilient Catholics Community which grew up around this podcast at