Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom.
This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education.
Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com.
I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast.
And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching.
A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords.
Only stuff that works.
My guest today is Glenn Whitman.
Glenn is a history teacher and Dreyfus family Director of the Center for Transformative Teaching and Learning, CTTL at St. Andrew's Episcopal School.
He has shared the work of the CTTL through publications such as educ, utopia, mind, brain, and Education, the A SCD Express.
From Chartered College and EdSurge Glen is presented around the world at public charter, private, and international school conferences, including N-A-I-S-A-S-C-D-I-S-T-E, leaning forward New Teacher Center, ELM Learning in the Brain Festival of Education and South by Southwest edu.
Glen is the co-author of Neuro Teach Brain Science and the Future of Education.
The co-designer of Neuro Teach Global and Neuro Teach global student and co-editor of Think Differently and Deeply.
The international publication of CTTL Glen Earned is MALS from Dartmouth College and a BA from Dickinson College.
You are going to enjoy Glen.
Hello, Glen.
Good to see you again.
Two days in a row.
Glen,
Glen Whitman: I might be the luckiest man in the world seeing you.
Uh two days in a row in the same week.
Unbelievable.
Gene Tavernetti: you know, I'm gonna go tell my wife, you said that, I'm not quite as entertaining as home.
Glen Whitman: she'll take like an every other day situation probably.
Gene Tavernetti: you know what, so would I, so I. Well, Glen, uh, one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about is, about your role at the, at the school and in your introduc introduction, we talked about that you are the director of the Center for Transformational Teaching and, uh, learning, CTTL, and you are a teacher.
Tell me how you blend those.
what's going on there?
Glen Whitman: No, no.
Great, great question, Jean.
Um, I arrived at, uh, St. Andrew's Episcopal School in 1997 to teach history and be a high level girls varsity soccer coach.
and over that time I've held department head roles, dean of study roles, and, and then there was this interesting moment at our school in, uh, in 2007 during some strategic planning.
our generative question was how do you take good teachers and make 'em great and great teachers and make 'em expert?
It's a really interesting question that I, I, I would still say schools and school districts should ask themselves.
Uh, we were playing off sort of, uh, gene, uh, Jim Collins'.
Good to great work.
and it was at an interesting time.
I really didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up in education.
I, I love teaching.
I love kids and I love history.
I think there should be seven periods of history every day at school.
No offense to anybody else who teaches anything else.
but I, you know, I was at a moment where, um, my head of school said, you know, um, what should we sort of go after to be big expert teachers?
And we sort of got lucky.
Uh, and there's a whole backstory to this, but.
We finally figured out that all of us collectively as a school had little knowledge of the science of how the brain and mind learns.
And it was like, what if we all knew a little bit more about this?
Um, not just the learning strategist, not the learning specialist, not the coach, um, not the AP psych teacher.
Um, and it was an interesting sort of hypothesis that was driving us.
If all of us knew a little bit more collectively about the science of the organ, of learning the brain that every student will bring to every school every day, could we be more effective as educators?
and I was probably at the right place at the right time and my head of school said, you know, let's not create a strategic plan around this.
Let's just see what we can do with this.
And, you know, you sort of like talking to people and you know, go make friends.
I mean, that literally was like the charge.
I was like.
I'll talk, I'll, I'll talk to almost anybody.
Right.
Um, I remember the president of Dickinson College where I went to once said, you know, engage everybody.
And I was like, great, I can do that.
but my only sort of deal part of this was I said, look, I don't know where this is gonna take me or the school, but I wanna always make sure I'm still teaching.
We've held true to that.
we started training our first cohort of faculty in 2007 in, in the science of Teaching and learning.
and I was sort of put in the position to sustain and keep the foot on the gas, so to speak.
A lot of schools have a the year of the brain initiative, right?
We've all been there the year of diversity or the year of technology, and then we check the box and we move on to the next thing.
I, I really give our head, Robert Kki saying, look, your job is to keep the foot on the gas.
But I get to still teach, which was great.
So back then I was teaching both middle school and high school.
Um, I travel enough now with the center, um, that um, I only could teach one class, but I still teach a 10th grade, uh, US and global perspective class, um, which I love.
And they also know they're my Guinea pigs.
You know, I hear if I, if I hear another retrieval practice strategy, they're gonna get it the next day.
Uh, so that's sort of how I do, I still teach.
We do have a, a center embedded in our preschool through 12th grade school that makes sure, or supports every one of our teachers using the most promising research and strategies in their disciplines, their subjects, their age groups, and, uh, I help support them.
Gene Tavernetti: Great.
Well, when you started this, when you all started this in 2007?
You didn't have folks, you know, traveling around the country saying retrieval practice.
So where did, where did you start?
what sort of strategies, techniques did you start?
What were you sharing with the faculty?
I.
Glen Whitman: Well, it's funny, like in 2007 we, the first thing we wanted to do was could we train our teachers?
A hundred percent of teachers and, and back then we were sixth through 12th grade school.
We are now preschool through 12.
We were like, how do we do this?
Like again, we didn't really know back then.
There were really two models out there that were intriguing enough to us.
There was the all kinds of minds work, which was out there and it's still around and we actually still use it, to train our teachers early on.
But then there was the brain targeted teaching model with Merrill Hardiman at Johns Hopkins.
And so the two ways I went around just trying to figure out what this field is or what.
Science of the brain.
I think it was called brain-based learning back then.
A lot.
That's what I remember.
So we went to Hopkins, which is not too far from us.
And I, I think I legally introdu, legally stalked or legally introduced myself to Merrill Hardiman.
And I said, Marielle, look, this is our idea.
And I was amazed.
I felt like I found like a, a lost family member.
She goes, she was like, yes.
Like, let's try this.
Uh, at scale now our scale's a lot smaller than public public schools, but, we decided to train a hundred percent of our teachers back then.
Now, I. I also didn't know what else was out there.
the learning in the brain conferences were, were the next stop.
and I remember in being in Boston and sitting with my colleague, Ian Kelleher and Howard Gardner's on stage, and I'm like, and he's talking about multiple intelligences you can imagine back then.
Just the stuff made sense to me, but it also made sense that like where has this stuff been in my life?
Like I've been teaching since 1991.
I don't think I've ever heard about metacognition or myelination or, or, or even retrieval practice.
I'm not even sure if I knew the difference between active working memory and long-term memory when I first started teaching.
so those elements and then finally really I think the one that took us over the top.
We got connected with, research schools international at, at Harvard's Graduate School of Education, Dr. Kirk Fisher and his team, and really this idea of mind, brain, and education.
MBE WA emerged out of a hug.
What we were intrigued by that we're still sort of stuck a little.
You know, we feel that MDE work takes us beyond the cognitive science, the science of learning.
It looks at the mind, brain, and education together.
so you know, that is really those three things.
One, how do we train our whole faculty?
And then we went to a university to get some help.
We went to the Learning the Brain Conference, and ultimately we ended up at a Harvard's Graduate School of Education.
Gene Tavernetti: So I think there are, distinctions to be made about going to scale sometimes when you're at a private school,
and I'm gonna ask, this is just a quick question.
I'm not gonna get into it, but, do teachers at your staff, is it a, a union shop?
Glen Whitman: It is not, but I know you want a long answer.
I'm not gonna give you a long
Gene Tavernetti: No, no, no.
I don't want a long answer.
You know?
I want what
Glen Whitman: give you a quick one.
I'm gonna give you quick, I'll give you a quick one.
the CTTL by its charter, roughly 40 to 50% of its work has to be, so, has to be with public or public charters around the us So we do, just so you know, we work with big public school districts, um, who are unionized.
We also, there are a few, there are actually not many private schools in the United States that I know of.
I can name two that are unionized, but there are probably more.
I just only knew two.
Gene Tavernetti: Okay.
So going back to the origin story, and you talked about a group of teachers getting together, how big a group was that com You know, like percentage of the staff?
I mean, like many.
Well, it's like a, when a charter school starts, everybody's on board.
That's kind of by definition.
Oh yeah.
I'm for this right now.
And then as, as people leave and, you know, you have new folks.
So what was, what was the, uh, reception?
Was everybody on board with this or did you have some reticent folks?
Glen Whitman: Oh, no.
No way.
No, no.
Look, you know this like changing the teacher's mindset, behavior is.
Is is is unbelievably hard.
Uh, love the challenge though, but it's unbelievably hard.
Um, we're stubborn people.
we were strategic in this, right?
So one is, in some ways we were content agnostic.
In that we were thinking about really pedagogy, right?
So the teaching and learnings, instructional design, instructional decisions, you know, instructional practices.
We weren't really gonna get into the what you teach.
and I find teachers are very defensive of the what, unless it's a scripted curriculum.
And that's probably a different podcast for you, right?
and certainly independent school teachers have a, have a lot of flexibility.
Charter school teachers have a lot more flexibility than some of our.
Public school, of friends out there.
as I told you, we were sixth through 12th grade school back then.
Um, it's easier to start with middle school teachers, I'm just gonna tell you.
Um, and that's what we did.
we, we start, so the first cohort, uh, of our faculty, who were trained and the initial training was a five day training.
more middle school teachers.
And what, what that created was exactly what we wanted.
Enough of them had friends in the upper school of the high school and they were like, you know what, this was really good.
It's, it's, it's led me to change my mindset about the learners in front of me, like we want old teachers.
I, I would argue the most important or useful concept from neuroscience, I.
Is, is neuroplasticity.
I need all our teachers to believe that all kids can learn and want to learn, and we own some of that and they own the kids, own some of that.
And I think it's an important mindset to that.
I also felt that most of our teachers, the biggest, quickest thing we saw change was their instructional variation and differentiation.
Right?
They knew multiple modality instruction, multiple sensory instruction, is really critical.
So some really.
Looked at their curriculum and, and, and syllabi or, or, or year long course plans and said, look, maybe I can do a little, little, uh, little better.
we then, and at some point, and this is where leadership does matter, our head of school did say, and he doesn't use a lot of political capital, I don't think.
He said, look, this seems to be the right place for us to go.
It's an all in model.
So now you have the, the head of school saying, a hundred percent of us are gonna get trained Glen.
His team that was evolving is gonna support you in elevating your knowledge of the science of teaching learning, or we call mind brain education.
your efficacy, your belief in yourself as an educator to use it, and also your competence in translating it, actually using it in your classroom.
And I think that's what the CTTL does really, really well.
We, 'cause we start from the, we're based in a school.
We're thinking always what will the teachers use?
What might move a student?
and that's how we went about it.
And, you know, to this day, you know, we're, uh, the initiative started in 20 2007.
Um, it is now 2025, so you could argue we've been on an 18 year initiative.
There are not many schools that stick with something, for 18 years, and it's just now become part of our DNA.
I mean, we're having this conversation Gene, because of our center and our work.
you know, we are, we get invited to present around the world or present at schools because of this work, but most important clients of us, our, our everyday students at St. Andrew's.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, the reason that I wanted to go into this in a little bit more detail is that it's very easy to.
Oh, Glen Whitman St. Andrews, and then go to St. Andrews and take a look at the school and go, well wait a second.
How does this apply to us?
But you're talking about the same issues.
It doesn't matter.
we talk about all kids learn the same.
Teachers are the same too.
you know, we still have those idiosyncrasies, like you say, we could generalize, man, let's get the middle school teachers, you know, So there, there are those things that are universal that we can generalize regardless of the institution, regardless of, kids you're teaching, you know, socioeconomics, et et cetera.
There are some constants that we always have to address.
And one of the two, two things I wanted to get a little bit more deeper is like, I don't know if you used the words, we knew we had to finesse it.
But you may have, and if we didn't, we're gonna imagine that you did use, but you had to finesse it with the folks.
And I think you also alluded to the fact that from, were you initially like the point person to see that this was happening?
I.
Glen Whitman: I. Was in the, a leadership position at the school.
I think I was a department head for history.
I then was sort of the academic dean.
I oversaw sort of the, how do we keep our curriculum and pedagogy moving forward, right?
Uh, but not necessarily through research.
Just like good discussions.
And and mostly it was like, how do we use technology?
In that role as Dean of studies current then, and then ultimately I was anointed the director of the center.
and it was really important to have a point person and have permission from the head of school.
I also had, I had history at the school.
I had relationships at the school.
and I don't feel it's tooting my own horn.
I. I feel I was a pr, I really did.
I'm a good teacher.
I, I work hard on my craft every day.
Um, I think my, my colleagues generally know, know that and see that.
And I think there's relational trust.
But I also think the ask, we did a couple things really smart.
we made the ask realistic.
We, we, we presented the, the field of the mind brain education, and we said, what?
10% of your teaching.
Might you use to inform, validate, or transform using this work?
So maybe somebody wants to give, you know, better feedback.
Maybe they feel like staying up late on Sunday nights is not yielding what they want when they hand back the papers the next day or whenever.
Right.
maybe they wanna, maybe what they wanna learn more about the thing called formative assessment.
It seems like everybody's talking about it.
Or cognitive load.
or, okay.
Belonging is.
An important word out there, but truly what does that mean?
and again, we gave the teachers some choice, but like a very sort of low hanging 10% felt like doable.
Maybe that's a new assessment.
Maybe that's changing a, a weekly syllabus.
You know, maybe that's looking into some of the science of reading or literacy strategies.
Just a bit more to making sure you're, you're more aligned with what we know or know better.
so I think those were two really key.
Yes.
Having a point person, and then the other thing, which was the finessing, you know, there were people who were gonna just sort of wait out the initiative, right?
know this happens all the time.
Oh, oh, oh.
So, so Glenn is leading this brain thing.
Alright, well as long as he doesn't come to my room for a year, I should be fine.
'cause next year we'll be doing technology and, what I, I did come to the room and we just created good conversations and I would probably even call them coaching conversations and not, I didn't even know what coaching was back then.
but, uh, I think there were certain things like how did a point person mattered?
Having a common framework and language really mattered.
So we actually have, and for your audience who's listening, when we work with schools, one of the first things we do is I, when I go to a school, I ask the principal or the head of school, can I see your professional word wall?
And they look at me like, what, what are you asking?
And I'm like, where's your professional word wall?
You guys use a lot of language buzzwords around education.
Um, and nobody has one generally.
We actually have a professional word wall.
We have 18 words on it, and these are, this is where we took the research around collective teacher efficacy and said, we're gonna have some level of common language that we all, if I gave a formative assessment to my fa our faculty, I would like to think I can get 80% or above.
You might say it's a low bar, on, on my little uh, word wall formative assessment.
But imagine if every school had a professional world, for example, on our professional World Wars executive functions.
Everybody should, I would argue everyone's an executive functions teacher in every school, right?
I want e everybody to know what that word means, or formative assessment.
We even have the amygdala on our professional word wall.
uh, it's a fun exercise.
If you are your listeners, I hope they might consider doing it and send me a photo and prove me wrong.
but I don't see many professional word walls yet at schools, but we
Gene Tavernetti: the heck with my listeners.
I just wrote that in my notes.
We're gonna bring that I, I gotta meet with the school next week.
But that's what we've been, that's what we've been talking about and talking about the, the next steps.
So, just a, a couple more questions.
Going, going back, so you were the point person, but I think you also mentioned that the, that the head of the school, also, I don't remember the title.
Is, is that, is it the school head?
Glen Whitman: So say at independent school's, often head of school and Robert Kakis been a great 23 year ahead of school.
Yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: Okay, so he, but if I recall right, there was a non-negotiable piece.
Glen Whitman: There was a, an, an interesting moment.
uh, I call it he used some political capital, and he, and he sort of said, look, this is, this fits our school's mission.
Our school's mission starts with, to know and inspire each each child, through exceptional teaching, learning, and service.
And we, we argued that exceptional teaching means that teachers know a little bit more than most of 'em do about the science of how the brain learns.
maybe that's more opinionated, but I still think the research supports that.
it wasn't, we weren't, weren't trying to like, get rid of anybody.
We just wanted to raise the bar for us, our teachers.
and I think there was another, you know, as I'm talking, there was another gentleman in our school back then, this guy John Holden, he was the assistant head of school.
And because of John, I took the job at this school and John said something I thought was really struck me.
Um, at the end of my interview, I said, what do you want from me if you hire me?
And he says, I want you to be better in June than you were in September.
And then I said, John, what the heck does that mean?
he goes, I, he says, I trust you to know what that means.
And I was like, I wanna work at that school.
but that kind of culture was in the air, in, in the water, so to speak.
But, but Robert did sort of say, look, this is the direction we're going.
we shared actually some of, you know, hattie's meta study, I imagine around collective efficacy and Yeah.
You know, meta studies aren't perfect.
I get it.
And people can, you know, we can have that bite and discussion later on, but it's compelling enough to talk about.
and he said, look, we're all gonna be trained in, in, in this MBE work.
Glen's, Glen's the point person.
So I got his sort of anointing.
and hopefully over time we're gonna grow the team and, it's gonna help the everyday teaching here.
and maybe it'll have some other benefits to the school, but more importantly, we wanna be the best research informed teachers we can be.
Um, and those are really important.
Gene Tavernetti: I noticed yesterday, you know, at the beginning I said, I saw you yesterday.
I attended, uh, a webinar that, that you and Zach, did, and one of the things that I hadn't seen before, and it was one of your early slides and it was, now that you have provided some context, it was a list of words that I bet was your word wall.
Glen Whitman: it was, it was a wall on steroids.
what we tried to present is, I know the audience.
I've been jumping back between and mind brain education, the science of learning.
I'll just stick in the mind, brain education space, the field is vast.
I mean, and what I showed that slide with these two columns it had domains like sleep and, at formative assessment, uh, motivation, right?
All these areas that would, that, again, knowing a little bit more about the brain and the mind, I would argue.
Helps us to think better about what this might mean for our instructional design.
Here's a great example.
Um, and I was having this conversation with Andrew Watson recently, and I love Andrew and I love Andrew's work, right?
Um, he calms me down.
I get too excited.
I talk to Andrew.
He, he calms me down.
So thank you, Andrew.
but we've debated Andrew about dating.
Like is the brain stuff more important than the mind stuff?
Is the mind stuff more important than the brain stuff?
And I'll just say.
I started to do more retrieval practice and interleaving and spaced work when I learned about myelination and I had no clue.
I, I took AP bio.
I think I clearly, I didn't remember that one, but the idea of myelin and, and by practicing and space practice that, you know, you're creating a level of automaticity, to me was really intriguing.
But think, thinking about it biologically.
Really took me to the place, like, I gotta start doing this and then I'm actually a brain changer.
We talk about that a lot at our school, that teachers are brain changers as sort of one of our mantras.
and it's a pretty powerful feeling to have as an educator.
I wish it attracted more people to education, knowing that we are actually brain changers, um, for all of us in public, private, and charter schools around the world.
Gene Tavernetti: when you start talking about the distinction between mind and brain, it brings me back.
I was a philosophy major.
And every once in a while I'll read something that, that Oliver writes and I'm thinking, I just get PTSD.
I mean, holy cow.
It's so deep.
You know?
Or these are these articles.
and so I try to stick to what works I. mind, brain, I don't care.
Does this work for you?
Can we make it better?
Can you be more effective?
Alright, let's go.
One o one other question because I, I want to ask you about, about the, some of your writing.
now that you've been doing this since 2007, I. and I know all the folks that, all the, the faculty who were there in 2007 are no longer there, so you need to hire new folks.
Is this part of the, the interview process, letting them know, look, this is who we are, but this isn't for you.
Glen Whitman: A lot of layers to the, to the question.
I want, I wanna just respond to something about the mind and the brain.
'cause I, 'cause I know I, you know, look, I sat in your audience, right?
You talk about what, what seems to work and try it out in your context and see if it works there.
I. What I think the mind and the brain discussion or language does is it, and I would say from this is from the eye perspective, the start, it professionalizes the practice in ways that I think are important.
Uh, I don't wanna just throw words around in buzz words, right.
I, I think pe we teachers, we get beat up, right?
For, so anybody can teach.
Right.
Um, and I hate when I hear that.
Right.
but again, I'm not saying I want, you know, I'm not a neurosurgeon Right.
Uh, or anything like that.
But, you know, I think at some level, it is, it professionalizes the practice.
It makes our teachers and teachers who are are thinking about it maybe walk a little taller more confidently.
I'll just say that, that point, there
Gene Tavernetti: my, my question was, when you interview new folks,
Glen Whitman: Yes.
Yes.
Gene Tavernetti: 'em, Hey, this is who we are.
This is who we are.
You don't like it.
There's a, there's a school down the
Glen Whitman: thanks for the sca.
Thanks for the scaffolding.
So a couple things there.
no, we're pretty transparent.
It ha it works both ways.
One is, if you look at our website.
It's clear, right?
a hundred percent research informed teachers.
if you look at the hiring page, uh, we have a whole professional growth pathways, the CTTL sort of certifies our te our newest teachers after they go through sort of four steps.
so I think this is, you've named a problem.
So a school for years has been training its teachers, but it brings in new teachers.
How do those new teachers feel like they belong or, or know what they should be doing?
you know, every one of our new teachers reads neuro teach the, the book I co-authored with Ian.
Uh, our head of research, uh, at the end of their first year at our school, they go through a three day training.
Uh.
they use some of our, the micro courses, our neuro teach global studio, uh, neuro teach global micro courses, and then they attend our summer academy.
Uh, we have, uh, every July, uh, we have a, uh, a sport, a science teaching and school leadership academy where we train educators around the world in our very unique, tools that organizes the research.
But we have people.
Here's what's happening for us.
We have people who show up at our door who respond to ads for positions and say, I want to be at a school.
I wanna be at a school that's gonna ask me to look at research and maybe do some research and is actually gonna help me become a facilitator and write.
We have a, we have an in-house publication called Think Differently and Deeply.
at the same time, we're very honest, we're a hard school to teach at.
Like the bar's pretty high.
you know, the, you just can't show up and say, open to page six and let's, let's talk about this.
and we're not perfect every day.
No teacher is, but you know, there's certain elements we want in every class, right?
We want, you know, act some activation of prior knowledge and some sense of belonging.
And, you know, as Zach and I were talking about yesterday, the right amount of direct instruction and check for understandings and, you know, then when do kids grapple and think harder than me?
And then when do I check if they're even learning?
What's the formative assessment?
I, uh, you know, I feel, I feel early in my career.
My teaching was mostly having kids work in their active working memory, and I was not doing enough of long-term memory sort of, uh, encoding during my class.
So I don't know if I took, took it in directions, but we get great teachers or, or people who wanna teach at our school.
We also very transparent, we're gonna train you and we expect you to do this with a lot of autonomy as well though.
Gene Tavernetti: I want to, uh, emphasize the 0.1 more time that the work that you do at your, at this private school is the same work you do around the world in all schools,
Glen Whitman: when we go to, yeah, we were, when we would go to a school, just a school district with 30,000 students.
Right now, the, the, the challenge, the, the only difference is how you can del the delivery mechanism.
So at a smaller school, a charter school, you know, our school has less than 150 teachers.
We can all gather pretty easily.
When I go to a district that has 3000 teachers, um, there's where we have to think about who, it's almost like a train to trainer model.
Uh, how do you, how the strategy to get.
Every teacher, in this space has to be a little different, just 'cause of the, the, just the numbers, but it's doable.
Frederick County Public Schools in Maryland, it's doable.
The state of Maryland, I can't believe this, they just encoded it in legislation that the science of learning has to be part of the professional development and growth plans, which I, I'm amazed at.
So we'll see how that evolves.
So it's exciting, um, and hopefully they become a model and we can be part of, uh, developing that model.
Gene Tavernetti: Great.
man, you were good.
You had, you gave me a, uh, a little introduction and the next thing I wanted to talk about, and that was your work, your book, Neuro teach brain science in the future of education.
And you say you use that as a text for the new folks.
Can you talk about, talk about the book a little bit?
Glen Whitman: prior to podcasting or webinars or LinkedIn or Twitter, right?
Uh, I enjoy writing.
I think, um, I, I try to convey this to my students When you, when you can write clearly about something, you know, it.
so, you know, we were doing some writing before 2 20 16 for like Edutopia and Eder, some small pieces, and all of a sudden, like, I got a call from a publisher and he's like, there seems to be no book out there yet.
And that was this, again, this is like 2015 written from a teacher perspective, about maybe how to use research in the science of learning.
I don't even think we were calling it back then.
would you guys be interested in writing it?
I, you know, I don't know if that was a bucket list of mine, but I certainly was intrigued.
so then we started to interview teachers and, you know, what, you know, what, what would you want your chapters to be and, and whatnot like that.
and it le lo and behold, it led to this book called Neuro Teach Brain Science in the Future Education.
again, I, I think the neuro word, right?
Brain, I think.
It reinforces this idea that the brain comes to every one of our classes every day, and it is one of the ways kids, kids use it to learn.
It's an organ of learning.
And in 1991, when I first started teaching in Spokane, Washington, I wasn't thinking like that.
My, my educational philosophy in 1991 was, I think I teach, they learn, right?
Open their brain.
I'm gonna throw some history in it.
Close the brain.
Kids go learn it.
Right?
Uh, but so really, Ian and I who wrote it, um, and we're probably set to start the second edition.
And what's been amazing since then, you know, we're almost a decade, the proliferation of books in our field, gene, you've written some, I've written, you know, all, there's so many great books being, you know, you know, being written out there.
Kay Jones has got these great books about memory and, you know, Blake's new book about attention.
Right.
I'm amazed at the quality, and it's coming from both directions now too, which I like.
It's coming from the researcher side, but I really start seeing school people, people who truly had legit school experience.
They don't have to be still teaching or school leading.
They can use that experience, to stand in the teacher's shoes a bit more.
Um, so we wrote the book.
it is a anchor text for our faculty, a common text, and I've been amazed at how many schools have read it and are still reading it, and, uh, uh, really appreciate that.
And I think it's having an impact, which as you know, as a writer, if people buy the book, we're not gonna make money off the book.
But if we're impacting how people are thinking, that feels pretty good as an
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Yeah, it does.
and then was the other book the one for students?
Was that just a follow up kind of like, we told the teachers how to do this and this is how to be a good student?
What's, what was the second book?
I'm looking for the title here.
You could probably tell me the title before I find it.
Glen Whitman: um, what is the second book?
The Well,
Gene Tavernetti: Neuro Teach Global Student.
Glen Whitman: right, so great.
It's, it's actually not a book.
Gene Tavernetti: Okay.
Glen Whitman: Newark Teach Club.
We got a grant, uh, from the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative and EE Ford Foundations.
they asked us, okay, you guys have done this stuff for teachers.
What would you do differently for kids?
Um, and when we start talking to kids, maybe we should have wrote a book, but they, they didn't see book as the answer.
But one kid, one kid did say, uh, oh God, I can't remember his name.
I, I, I always say his name.
I'll remember it.
He came up to Ian and myself once he goes, you gotta, you gotta do me a favor.
And I was like, what do you want?
It was Jake.
And I said, what do you want Jake?
And Jake says, you've been given all these research and strategies directly to St. Andrew's.
Our teachers, not all those teachers, don't get 'em to us.
Can you just get 'em directly to us more?
And I was like, but that, that probably makes practical sense.
Then I said, Jake, well how do you, how, how would you do it?
How would you want it delivered?
you know, he sort of said, look, uh, he was telling me about some of the learning strategy and study skills courses He's taken both maybe with a tutor.
You know, we had a little of that at our school.
And, and those from research have actually proven they're not really impactful.
they're decontextualized.
And we, we got a hold of Mark McDaniel who wrote Make It Stick.
I don't know if you've had Mark on your podcast, but Mark's
Gene Tavernetti: yet.
Yeah.
Glen Whitman: Mark had an interesting model, and he said, look, I'm never gonna build a platform for this, but what if we work together?
And we also recruited David Daniel from James Madison University, who really was trying to think it about this work.
So what we did is Norte Global student is seven modules.
you know, remembering what you read, um, is one of 'em, you know, uh, keeping it in your head, how do I maintain attention, uh, in class, those kind of things.
Like really foundational learning and study strategies to elevate the agency of students.
and we designed it where the kids actually do labs on themselves.
well, they will try a strategy they think works.
Then we will give them another research informed strategy in the platform to try.
And then they, it's a comparison.
They are our students.
Our whole ninth grade does one module a month.
and the goal is to make a more efficient, effective, and hopefully successful, uh, learners and studiers.
Um, so that was, uh, we went more digital than, uh, than a printed text for the student version.
Gene Tavernetti: Awesome.
and as soon as I asked the question, as soon as you said book probably isn't the best thing I'm thinking.
Of course it's not.
I mean of, of course it's not the best.
Wow.
Uh, this has been, this has been great.
I really had a, uh, enjoyed getting to know how this whole thing happened, what the center was.
we've seen each other a couple times in person and it just doesn't seem.
I don't know.
Appropriate.
I don't know.
It's weird to get so serious about, you know, discussing this stuff, uh, you know, and social gathering stuff.
So I, I really appreciate you taking the time, you know, to talk about this and clarify some of the issues.
And the biggest issue, I'm gonna say one more time, it doesn't matter the type of school you have.
It has to do with, you know, how do we, how do we, uh, get this content to teachers?
How do we get them to employ it?
and our kids are all, and our kids learn the same way I.
Glen Whitman: Yeah.
No, no.
I, I, I think you're, look, you've been consistent through this podcast.
Look, you, you and I saw each other in snowy Denver.
We've seen each other in, in other places and, you know, uh, anytime to say hello and talk.
But I think you're right.
Uh, you know, as we think about, look, it's a tough time.
Education's tough, right?
I mean, it's a tough job.
It's, we're dealing with a complex, students who are really developing in front of our eyes.
The body of research, whether you wanna call it mind brain education science, or the science of learning or educational neuroscience, I believe it's still underutilized.
and I still think, it can be a really important solution and lens to some of the challenges and problems schools are facing.
And I would even say, and I'll be, this is a bold statement, I think it can also help us attract, retain, and develop the next generation of great teachers.
Um, I think we just gotta market teaching as.
Uh, a research innovation, we're brain changers profession, so we'll see what happens then.
Uh, but, uh, maybe have, we'll do a part two in a couple of years.
Gene Tavernetti: Could be.
Could be.
Um, so you have any questions for me?
Glen Whitman: Well, it's funny, I wrote down some questions last, last night for you.
I don't even remember what I wrote, but I thought they were really good questions and I didn't even use ai.
I think the one question I have for you, you've been at this a long, a little longer than me, right?
You've been in education a little bit longer, and so my question to you is, you know, how are you truly, like, where are you really hanging your hat that.
I used to think this when I started my education career, but now I really, really think this.
Because I think it's okay for us to, our thinking to evolve and I, I think sometimes teachers are afraid of that.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, this is, this is beyond all the things that I've learned.
Okay?
Okay.
Beyond all the science of learning things and, and, and all of that, but I think what's changed.
and I think you'll understand this as a, uh, soccer coach, which meant that you were a soccer player, that explicit instruction.
How else do you do this?
So I never wanted to be a teacher.
I wanted to be a coach.
I was.
A good teacher, I was a good assistant coach 'cause I could teach the skills of the different, of the different positions.
But, you know, where I wasn't good in the classroom because I didn't understand how these transferred, you know, into, into instruction.
So what really changed for me was being able to understand how this, for any content area.
We can make this ex, you know, these components of explicit instruction, we can bring them into the, into the classroom.
In fact, that was one of the big reasons I wanted to write my book, teach Fast.
I. Is because, you know, we would do these trainings, we'd teach teachers in explicit instruction, and they'd say, well, I see how it works for math, but I don't see how it works for anything else.
And they say, okay, we'll stick around and we'll show you.
So I think that was the, that was the one of the biggest thing that changed that, like you talked about before, it's content agnostic,
Glen Whitman: No, I love, I love how
yesterday.
I've gotten some emails since then and people are, you know, that was about direct instruction and explicit instruction and what people think is like, that's all you're gonna end up doing and it's gonna be boring and kids, and it's, no, it's, it's the pathway to do the high order thinking and the creativity.
'cause kids now have the knowledge.
Strongly encoded, uh, to use as they, as they explore their passions and curiosity.
So I think you're right.
I think to be honest, and I I said this recently, like I, I'm becoming a better, at that work.
but it's only been recent, right?
I think I was a good lecturer with some moments of check for understanding, but my gaps were too big.
I think my gaps were, were I, my check for understandings were too spread apart.
so I, I, I agree with that.
What about, I don't know if you're gonna kick me off yet, but I'm really, I'm both hopeful and worried about the future of the profession in that, attracting the talent, right?
There's not gonna be, I don't know if there's gonna be a lot of non-teachers out there thinking about this as a career, but how would you think we could attract.
cause I think your work helps to retain and develop teachers, like the coaching work and the like, but how do we get 'em into our, into this awesome career and craft?
Is there any traction
Gene Tavernetti: you know, my opinion and I think it, it go, it goes back to one of the things you said earlier about, you know, we need to professionalize it.
So that somebody's proud to say, you know, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna be a teacher.
this is becoming cliche now and it's no cliches on this show, but the idea of that we're asking people to be superheroes, no.
You know, it's, it's a job.
And, and I think the other thing that I think people need to know going in is that you don't have to be a lifer.
I mean in, in other industries, you know, I haven't read research recently, but you know, around the turn of the century they'd say, you know, you, you change what you do or how you do it every five to seven years, you know, and I think it's even more frequent.
But crimey, I think, I think we could change the, the salary schedule.
So that we could attract people and we could also say, you know what, Glen, I don't know if this is working for you.
You don't seem happy, you know, let, let you know, get out.
You could do a, you could do a lot of stuff.
because I, I just don't think it's, we make the job again.
You know, when you say you have to be a hero, that means you have made the system so difficult for these folks.
Glen Whitman: Yeah, my, you know, it's interesting, I read something recently that during down economic times.
an interest in teaching.
uh, goes up.
So I'll be curious.
You know, we're in an interesting economic time in the US and the world.
Um, you know, and again, for maybe the right reasons, maybe people are just looking for a, any job, uh, which is definitely don't do that engaging.
But, you know, I think there's an interesting opportunity here, um, to maybe make this an attractive thing.
Uh, and then obviously my only other thought is, um.
You know, as you talk about the heroes nature of our job, sometimes the complexity, you know, I'm, I'm obviously intrigued with, um, I'm not afraid of ai.
I I think right now I'm seeing teachers use it more to go to bed earlier and, uh, maybe become more efficient.
I, I'm not too sure on the, on the learning side yet, but I Do you have any quick, uh, how are you seeing AI in your world or your lens, uh,
Gene Tavernetti: you know,
Glen Whitman: newest.
Gene Tavernetti: I've been around long enough to see so many cottage industries pop up.
Glen Whitman: Right.
Gene Tavernetti: And I, and I think there are more presentations and conferences about ai, which is obsolete a week later, So I still believe that, my work was always.
Let's talk about explicit instruction.
Let's talk about lesson design, and now let's talk about how to deliver it effectively.
And now, if a teacher came in with, to me, with a AI created lesson, I would still do the same analysis of the lesson.
you know, I don't know what the cliche is now, you know, you're the boss, you know the, the AI is the slave, you're the boss.
And so I think.
I think that can, needs to continue to happen.
But I can just see, you know, when I would work with, with language arts teachers you know, one of the, the tenets of explicit instruction is that you have practice right away.
And so one of the, you know, like if we were gonna do something with, revise and edit text, you know, revise and edit writing well.
It would take the teacher hours and hours and hours to find samples where now it's 20 seconds.
Gimme, gimme five samples with these errors and you know, so there, there's so much there.
but I just don't wanna give it up.
I just, I just think that there is so much to the profession that I don't want anybody to ever say, I can give this up to x.
Glen Whitman: No.
No.
And the, and it's, uh, the relational intelligence.
Forget ai.
RII think I keep seeing out there, uh, is, is really starting point, whether you're coaching a teacher or teacher's working with a student.
Yeah.
No, I'm with
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Now I don't want to tell teachers they have to be heroes, but.
The, the residue, the result is you, you have people come up to you.
You have kids will come up to you 10, 20 years later and say, you were my hero, but you didn't have to be heroic.
You could just be good at your job.
Glen Whitman: I have brothers who do very different things.
They're more in the business world.
There, there, there has not been a day, I don't think.
Very rarely do I not, am I not excited to go to school and engage with kids?
Uh, I'm 50, I'm 56 years old.
I feel, I feel young.
Uh, they make me laugh.
I sometimes, I have no clue what they're saying.
but you're right, you're right.
Uh, you'll, you'll get that letter from the alumni or a, a student of wa somehow reconnects and just says, thank you.
And, and you know what, um, I'm just.
I don't think my brothers who are, who are doing very well in industry get much of that.
I always like the book Man's Search for Meaning, you know, Viktor Frankl's book and, and I'll just, and I read that every year around the Jewish holidays and I. You know, uh, I feel really luck.
I, I, I feel really lucky to have chosen teaching.
and more importantly though, I do feel like I've been lucky to be at a school that decided, hey, we could be better teachers by looking at some of these research things.
And I had no clue about early in my career.
So, um, a little, uh, a little Fortuna is okay.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Glen, thank you so much for doing this.
It's been a pleasure.
It's always a joy talking to you.
Always have fun.
Always laugh.
Glen Whitman: Uh, look, you and I agree, start with joy and laughter and then we can dig into the heady stuff.
Jean, love your work.
Thanks for doing it, and I love the friendship.
Gene Tavernetti: All right.
Thanks Glen.
We'll talk to you soon.
If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend.
Also, please leave a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
You can follow me on BlueSky at gTabernetti, on Twitter, x at gTabernetti, and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website, BlueSky.
Tesscg.
com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.