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Welcome back to their episode
of the Startup Therapy Podcast.

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This is Ryan Rutan,
joined as always by my

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friend, the founder,
and CEO of startups.com.

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Will Schroeder, will we answer
a lot of questions about like,

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what about this and what about
that in, in the founder world,

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because there's so many of
these things that you just

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don't face ever in life outside
of this space, and you're not

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even likely to hear about it
until the moment it happens

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to you, and then you just go.

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Huh.

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So today I wanna walk through
like, how does a founder

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get a promotion when they're
already CEO and founder?

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When things aren't going
well, how, how is that like

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we see people get promoted.

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Can you gimme some of
the titles we might get?

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Promoted to As as
CEO and Founder,

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we usually get promoted at
exactly the time that someone

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else just took our job.

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And so now we have a new title.

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We are now the Chief
Vision Officer, we're the

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Chief Culture Officer.

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Uh, if things go really our
way, we're now the chairman.

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And all of those are
just a different way of

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saying we just got fired.

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And we were given
a bullshit title.

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Yeah.

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Special, yeah, yeah.

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Director of strategy.

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Right.

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You know, like director
of, uh, please don't have

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anybody report to me.

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And, and I, and I gotta tell you
the reason I know this space so

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well isn't because I've coached
countless founders through it.

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It's because I dealt with it.

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Right.

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Except the difference is, yeah.

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I tried to fire myself over
and over and over and I

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couldn't get it to stick.

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So let, lemme give you
just a quick backstory.

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So early in my career, uh, we're
growing this agency and it's

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growing really fast, and I'm
clearly over my skis, right?

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Like I'm clearly over my skis.

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And, and mind you, I'm like.

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23, I mean like again, like
not that old, maybe 24 maybe.

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And all of a sudden, you
know, agency hit stride

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and we're hiring hundreds
of people and I'm like, we

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gotta find someone with any
level of qualification to

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actually do this job properly.

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Right?

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Because I don't know

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what I'm doing.

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And now I was very,
someone who can no

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longer still legally be on
their parents' insurance plan.

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Somebody who could rent
a car, somebody who

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could rent a car, right?

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It's pretty important
in the agency world.

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And so, uh.

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I sat down with, with
my business partner

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who is phenomenal.

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I also was, was only, I
think he was only four

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years older than me.

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But had a much better pedigree.

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And uh, I was like, look, um,
I want to go do other stuff.

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Like, I had like 90 other
companies I wanted to start.

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Yeah.

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And I was like, and I've like,
I don't know that I'm gonna

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really add that much value here.

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So let's, uh, let's bring
somebody else in with, um,

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with some more maturity.

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Sure.

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And you gotta understand
I'm 24 years old.

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I look like I'm 14, right?

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I had what we call the
Gary Coleman Effect, right?

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Yeah.

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Uh, in fact, one of my
old business partners

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actually coined that.

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He says, uh, life only works
for you because you have

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the Gary Coleman effect.

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I was like, huh?

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He goes, here's what happens
when you walk in a room

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because you look so young
and you look like a child.

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Everybody's mesmerized
by what you have to say.

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If you say anything
smart whatsoever.

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You sound like the
smartest person alive.

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Yeah.

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And for those of you that aren't
old enough, uh, to remember who

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Gary Coleman was, he was a, a
tiny kid from different strokes.

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Uh, he's probably like.

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15 when he was on that
show, he was supposed

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to be like an 8-year-old
or something like that.

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Yeah,

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yeah, yeah.

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He never got bigger.

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Yeah.

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Never, never did.

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Yeah.

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I don't think it helped
that your LinkedIn photo

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at the time was probably
you in front of that giant

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wall of Star Wars toys that
you had in your office.

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Right?

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You, you weren't
exactly punching back

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against that reputation.

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I was not.

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Uh, but so to, to,
to play it forward.

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So we go out and, and we, we
find A-A-C-E-O replacement.

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Some guy with gray hair
that, you know, like

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that looks the part, and
I'm like, cool, I'm out.

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And so.

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We promote me, quote, promote
me to chairman, which was a

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bullshit role because like
we, we didn't have a board,

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like not a meaningful board.

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So being chairman
didn't mean anything.

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Right.

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It just meant that like, I
owned half the company at the

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time, so like, it just meant
that I was still involved.

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And so I'm on my way out.

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Okay.

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And I'm, I'm, I'm already
starting other companies and the

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guy that we put in backfired.

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Ugh.

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So hard.

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So hard, so hard that like
the whole team mutiny on 'em.

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They came to me and they're
like, please come back.

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And I'm like, dude, I'm
literally in the middle of

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starting another company.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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Don't wanna be back.

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It's like getting pulled
outta witness protection.

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You're like, you're, you're
returning to your egg.

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No.

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No, I can't go back there.

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It's not

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safe.

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And again, I love the
company, I love the people.

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So it wasn't one of those cases
where I hated being there.

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I just felt like I had done
my time and I wanted to go do

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other stuff, and it was like
the height of the internet.

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So I was like, man,
there's so many other

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things we could be doing.

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But in that time, I'll have
gone back and forth from that

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role, from being the CEO to
the chairman, my bullshit title

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three different times over the
course of probably four years.

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Right, so I've actually
come full circle on this

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role over and over and over.

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Yeah.

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Most people only get
one version of this.

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They only get the version
where they get the bullshit

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title and they get like.

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Quietly and comfortably
pushed out the door.

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Yeah, I, to be fair,
there's usually somebody

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else doing this for them.

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Right.

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In this case you were Oh, yes.

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It's usually definitely
not voluntary.

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You were actively seeking this.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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This was, yeah, most of the time

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That's the very
different goes down.

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Yeah, very different.

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But, but the other
side of it was.

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I'm thinking back and my
memory isn't stellar, but I

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also remember thinking when I
proposed this to my business

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partner, he had zero pushback.

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Will, uh, were you CC'd on
that secret board meeting

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that we had last week?

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Right.

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Right, right.

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It's like, Hey man,
I'm thinking about

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Yes.

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Okay.

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But here's what
typically happens.

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It's just kinda like, like
unpack a little bit what this

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looks like when the founder
essentially gets fired by way of

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being given another job title.

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Yeah.

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And there are some number of
founders that are gonna be

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listening to this right now
that either are in the middle of

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this, and this is gonna be maybe
the most important episodes

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we've ever done for them.

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Yeah.

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Or they've lived through
this and their entire

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response is just gonna
be like, motherfucker.

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Yeah.

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I know exactly what
that feels like.

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You know this one?

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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Yep.

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So.

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Let's, let's open up at
the beginning, Rina, and I

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wanna hear it from yours.

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When the board, it's
usually investors' board,

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somebody has leverage over
you that they're telling

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you this is gonna happen.

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They're not asking you.

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Why wouldn't they
just fire somebody?

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Oh, I don't know.

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Equity, math, moral optics,
brand risk, knowledge,

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transfer, litigation,
fear, like, dude, there's

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like, that's, I can go on.

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I can go for the rest of
the, you can go around for

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the rest of the episode.

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There's so much downside
to just like, let's dig

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into a couple categories.

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It's not, it's not the place
we rip the bandaid off.

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'cause that's not
ripping a bandaid off.

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That's like ripping the
surgical clamps off, right?

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That doesn't end the same way.

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Right.

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That ends up with a huge mess.

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And look, the boards
wanna avoid splash damage.

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They want an air lock,
not an air strike.

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Right?

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They want this to be like,
yes, tactical, but like well

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contained with as little
collateral damage as possible.

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So that's why they don't
just outright fire you.

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Let's dig into some
of those buckets.

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Okay.

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Yeah, so I, I'll just
throw these out randomly.

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Bucket number one I'm probably
going to say is they fear

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that there's some sort of
retaliation, escalation

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blow up moment, right?

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yep.

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They need to shut you up or just
basically keep you contained in.

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A better way to do that
in some cases is to

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actually keep you here.

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Right Now, you gotta figure
if you're a board member,

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and I've been on the other
side of this too, where

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I've been working with
board members and investors.

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And talking them through like
how to deal with this with

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with founders, and I tell them
the same thing every time.

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I was like, remember, this is
99% emotional and 1% financial.

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You are taking someone's baby
from them and you're asking them

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to do it with a smile, right?

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Like, so understand
the scope of the ask.

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You may be looking at it
as well, it's for the good

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of the company and blah.

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Yeah.

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They don't give a shit
about any of that, right?

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No.

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You just ripped away
everything they built.

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You gotta be tactful.

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And so the first thing I said
is, let's say there's, there's

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a bunch of different ways we can
approach this, but one of them,

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one of the reason we're not
just gonna fire this person is

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because it could go really bad.

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Because unlike an employee that
may have stock options, but it's

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fairly portable, this person is
usually significantly hard coded

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into the DNA of the cap table.

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Not easy to extract.

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Yeah, no.

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00:08:00,270 --> 00:08:03,420
The unwinding that is
significantly harder and and

256
00:08:03,420 --> 00:08:05,010
can get really contentious.

257
00:08:05,010 --> 00:08:07,110
And so I think that's why
it's easier to just kinda.

258
00:08:07,530 --> 00:08:08,575
Put 'em to the side, right.

259
00:08:08,575 --> 00:08:11,965
In a way that doesn't always,
isn't always necessarily obvious

260
00:08:11,965 --> 00:08:13,165
to, to the founder, right?

261
00:08:13,165 --> 00:08:16,165
Like, and I've seen it come
in some really funny forms,

262
00:08:16,165 --> 00:08:17,995
which is like, the founder will
start talking about like, you

263
00:08:17,995 --> 00:08:19,885
know, wanting to get back into
like more product focus and

264
00:08:19,885 --> 00:08:22,225
all of a sudden they're like,
let's make you chief innovation

265
00:08:22,225 --> 00:08:24,295
officer so you can just focus
on product, whatever, whatever.

266
00:08:24,295 --> 00:08:24,715
And like.

267
00:08:25,115 --> 00:08:26,975
Then, then, then you're not
hearing from the product

268
00:08:26,975 --> 00:08:27,995
team for some reason.

269
00:08:28,205 --> 00:08:30,725
You are hearing from the
legal department a lot.

270
00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:31,800
They seem to be
very HR department.

271
00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:31,810
Yeah.

272
00:08:31,810 --> 00:08:32,345
Friendly with you.

273
00:08:32,345 --> 00:08:34,414
All of a sudden HR is
talking to you a lot.

274
00:08:34,445 --> 00:08:34,655
Yeah.

275
00:08:34,655 --> 00:08:34,664
Yeah.

276
00:08:34,745 --> 00:08:36,605
It's, it's really, really

277
00:08:36,635 --> 00:08:37,565
weird.

278
00:08:37,625 --> 00:08:38,015
Right.

279
00:08:38,164 --> 00:08:40,294
There's another version too,
so we'll, we'll explore a

280
00:08:40,294 --> 00:08:42,335
few different buckets because
for some folks that think,

281
00:08:42,335 --> 00:08:44,735
Hey, this might happen to me,
it may also be important to

282
00:08:44,735 --> 00:08:46,625
understand where, where those
buckets are in case you might

283
00:08:46,625 --> 00:08:49,535
be approaching one Another one
is the team actually likes you.

284
00:08:50,084 --> 00:08:50,805
Everybody likes you.

285
00:08:50,805 --> 00:08:52,485
You're, you're a
good dude, right?

286
00:08:52,694 --> 00:08:56,535
No one wants to lose you, but
the company has outgrown some

287
00:08:56,535 --> 00:08:59,775
for like force function that
they need to, to, to, to push.

288
00:09:00,165 --> 00:09:03,885
And so this often happens
with like a CFO or a CTO or

289
00:09:03,885 --> 00:09:06,974
something like that, where
you were the smartest person

290
00:09:07,245 --> 00:09:09,615
on technology when you had
four people in the room.

291
00:09:09,615 --> 00:09:11,115
'cause no one else
knew how to code.

292
00:09:11,385 --> 00:09:14,025
But now you have 400 people
and you are by far not

293
00:09:14,055 --> 00:09:16,125
like, you know, the, the,
the sharpest person, or

294
00:09:16,125 --> 00:09:17,115
you suck at management.

295
00:09:17,300 --> 00:09:17,870
You're really good.

296
00:09:17,870 --> 00:09:17,930
Go.

297
00:09:17,930 --> 00:09:18,260
Yeah.

298
00:09:18,290 --> 00:09:19,160
That happens a lot.

299
00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:19,910
Market management, right?

300
00:09:19,910 --> 00:09:20,090
Have time.

301
00:09:20,090 --> 00:09:20,270
Great

302
00:09:20,270 --> 00:09:22,010
technical person, great builder.

303
00:09:22,220 --> 00:09:24,530
All of a sudden you're managing
a team of 30, 40 people,

304
00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:25,939
which you might also hate.

305
00:09:25,939 --> 00:09:26,120
Right?

306
00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,939
And that's again, I think
that's where smart boards,

307
00:09:28,939 --> 00:09:30,800
smart investors take advantage
of this kind of stuff.

308
00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,020
They're like, you really
seem to hate running

309
00:09:33,020 --> 00:09:33,800
that team, don't you?

310
00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,064
We've got something for you
over here in the closet.

311
00:09:37,250 --> 00:09:37,850
Over here?

312
00:09:37,850 --> 00:09:38,300
Yes.

313
00:09:38,300 --> 00:09:39,709
In the supply closet over here.

314
00:09:40,885 --> 00:09:43,525
The other side of it is
usually, by this time there

315
00:09:43,525 --> 00:09:47,485
is a substantial amount of
friction in the company.

316
00:09:47,665 --> 00:09:48,625
'cause things aren't going well.

317
00:09:48,625 --> 00:09:51,895
No one's like, well I take
that back every now and again.

318
00:09:51,895 --> 00:09:53,905
There's an outside case where
it's like, well, we're on

319
00:09:53,905 --> 00:09:57,115
an IPO path and we just need
like a bigger name, like,

320
00:09:57,145 --> 00:09:59,965
you know, bigger CEO to like
fill the shoes to, uh, to

321
00:09:59,965 --> 00:10:00,954
take this in the next level.

322
00:10:01,074 --> 00:10:02,785
That's actually
what we also did.

323
00:10:03,180 --> 00:10:04,410
At the agency at the time.

324
00:10:04,410 --> 00:10:07,350
A couple years later, my
business partner, uh, also

325
00:10:07,350 --> 00:10:09,090
replaced himself as the CEO.

326
00:10:09,090 --> 00:10:11,910
We brought in a guy who was a
super big wig, had an incredible

327
00:10:11,910 --> 00:10:15,060
resume with the intent that he
was gonna take us public, and he

328
00:10:15,060 --> 00:10:16,110
turned out to be an empty suit.

329
00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,710
But the point is, it
happens right now.

330
00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,950
That's a very small use
case, and that's usually

331
00:10:22,950 --> 00:10:25,980
more voluntary by the
CEO, but again, typically.

332
00:10:26,594 --> 00:10:29,055
This is an investor
driven thing, right?

333
00:10:29,055 --> 00:10:31,515
It's very rare that anybody
else would have the power

334
00:10:31,875 --> 00:10:33,194
to force this upon you.

335
00:10:33,885 --> 00:10:35,595
So when we're talking about,
why didn't they just fire

336
00:10:35,595 --> 00:10:38,745
me, that implies that someone
has the power to do that.

337
00:10:39,405 --> 00:10:40,845
And let's pause for a second.

338
00:10:40,875 --> 00:10:42,945
'cause I, I, I think we need
to talk about, um, board

339
00:10:42,945 --> 00:10:43,875
mechanics for a second.

340
00:10:44,055 --> 00:10:46,035
A lot of founders going
into this world think,

341
00:10:46,155 --> 00:10:49,545
well, I have 60% of the
stock so nobody can fire me.

342
00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,170
Ryan, you wanna explain why
that's absolutely not case.

343
00:10:52,229 --> 00:10:53,219
The case whatsoever.

344
00:10:53,490 --> 00:10:56,219
Stock and, and voting
rights don't always align.

345
00:10:56,219 --> 00:10:57,990
In fact, they, they
very rarely do.

346
00:10:57,990 --> 00:11:00,900
When you start taking on other
people's money, regardless of

347
00:11:00,900 --> 00:11:04,410
how much equity you give up, you
give up lots of control, right?

348
00:11:04,410 --> 00:11:04,500
Yep.

349
00:11:04,740 --> 00:11:08,849
Look into those contracts that
you signed and you will likely

350
00:11:08,849 --> 00:11:11,969
find that yes, you still own
the majority of the company.

351
00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,790
No, you don't have the majority
of the decision making power.

352
00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:15,930
It's just the way
nor you have a job

353
00:11:15,930 --> 00:11:16,140
for life.

354
00:11:16,685 --> 00:11:19,415
Usually your employment in
your SOC are two totally

355
00:11:19,415 --> 00:11:20,930
different things, things
they don't tell you.

356
00:11:20,930 --> 00:11:21,130
The mercy

357
00:11:21,130 --> 00:11:21,730
of the board and the investors.

358
00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:25,650
Correct in all those provisions
that your attorney was going

359
00:11:25,650 --> 00:11:27,570
through and you were ignoring
when you were raising money,

360
00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,110
um, those are exactly the
ones that, that are coming

361
00:11:31,110 --> 00:11:32,250
back to haunt you right now.

362
00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:34,920
Read me the line with the
dollar sign on it again,

363
00:11:34,980 --> 00:11:36,135
like it's the only
one I wanna hear.

364
00:11:36,135 --> 00:11:36,415
Hey, Joe.

365
00:11:36,415 --> 00:11:36,575
Yeah.

366
00:11:36,575 --> 00:11:38,010
What's the amount,
what's my valuation?

367
00:11:38,010 --> 00:11:38,190
Good.

368
00:11:38,190 --> 00:11:39,180
I don't wanna hear
about the rest of it.

369
00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,420
So we get to this point where
the, the, the investors are

370
00:11:42,420 --> 00:11:43,350
like, okay, we got a problem.

371
00:11:43,380 --> 00:11:44,305
This person is, is up.

372
00:11:44,740 --> 00:11:45,670
Problem in some way.

373
00:11:45,670 --> 00:11:48,670
Maybe like, uh, not generating
revenue, can't raise more

374
00:11:48,670 --> 00:11:52,630
money, whatever it is, the
board has decided in their

375
00:11:52,630 --> 00:11:55,780
infinite wisdom that you
are the problem and they

376
00:11:55,780 --> 00:11:56,980
need to get you out of here.

377
00:11:57,190 --> 00:12:00,400
Now again, they can just
fire you, but it's, it's

378
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:01,630
an expensive decision.

379
00:12:02,130 --> 00:12:04,050
At a lot of ways, and I'm just
talking about financially, but

380
00:12:04,050 --> 00:12:06,989
the other side of it is, look,
if we just take this person,

381
00:12:07,260 --> 00:12:10,050
if we take Shelly and we just
give her a new title, she's

382
00:12:10,050 --> 00:12:14,069
chief vision officer now, and
we, we put her on some like

383
00:12:14,370 --> 00:12:16,170
exile planet in the org chart.

384
00:12:16,170 --> 00:12:19,469
So nobody's actually, uh,
what's great about that, I mean,

385
00:12:19,469 --> 00:12:21,035
great, not great for founder.

386
00:12:21,415 --> 00:12:25,439
What's great about that is by
the time we actually get rid of

387
00:12:25,439 --> 00:12:27,089
her, nobody's heard from her.

388
00:12:27,870 --> 00:12:30,959
Like she went from being the
CEO and she had like that photo

389
00:12:30,959 --> 00:12:33,810
op moment, that social media
moment where she, she talks

390
00:12:33,810 --> 00:12:36,449
about how incredible this new
CEO is gonna be, which is all

391
00:12:36,449 --> 00:12:37,920
you want as the, as the board.

392
00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,640
And then they put you into
this bullshit title and

393
00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:43,680
then they could have that
conversation with you six

394
00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:44,610
months or a year from now.

395
00:12:44,610 --> 00:12:45,900
Hey, it's not working out.

396
00:12:45,900 --> 00:12:47,370
We don't really need a
chief vision officer.

397
00:12:47,670 --> 00:12:48,630
Uh, sorry about your luck.

398
00:12:48,990 --> 00:12:50,819
That's why they don't
just fire somebody.

399
00:12:50,819 --> 00:12:52,380
It, it's so
expensive to do that.

400
00:12:52,380 --> 00:12:52,800
You know what I mean?

401
00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:53,280
Yep.

402
00:12:53,490 --> 00:12:56,250
No, it's easy to just wind you
down, wear you out, and then.

403
00:12:56,850 --> 00:12:58,200
Let you fade away, right?

404
00:12:58,380 --> 00:12:58,680
Yeah.

405
00:12:58,920 --> 00:12:59,940
From the investor stand.

406
00:12:59,940 --> 00:13:00,570
Let's talk about that.

407
00:13:00,570 --> 00:13:01,980
Let's talk about what
the investors are

408
00:13:01,980 --> 00:13:03,120
trying to accomplish.

409
00:13:03,510 --> 00:13:03,690
Sure.

410
00:13:03,690 --> 00:13:06,600
So you understand why these
things unfold the way they do.

411
00:13:06,810 --> 00:13:09,300
First thing the investors
want is they've gotta make

412
00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:12,300
sure that if they're clearing
the lane for a new CEO, let's

413
00:13:12,300 --> 00:13:15,390
say I'm just using CEO as an
example, that they haven't set

414
00:13:15,390 --> 00:13:18,000
a trap from the outgoing CEO.

415
00:13:18,765 --> 00:13:21,465
In other words, like if
outgoing CEO is like, I'm filing

416
00:13:21,465 --> 00:13:23,985
lawsuits, I'm doing this, I'm
gonna make it a public stink.

417
00:13:23,985 --> 00:13:24,735
All these things.

418
00:13:25,065 --> 00:13:25,275
Yeah.

419
00:13:25,305 --> 00:13:26,355
Think of what that means.

420
00:13:26,355 --> 00:13:28,485
If you're a board trying to
recruit somebody into what's

421
00:13:28,485 --> 00:13:29,745
likely a struggling company.

422
00:13:29,805 --> 00:13:30,105
Yeah.

423
00:13:30,105 --> 00:13:31,965
It's, I said there was
already a struggle.

424
00:13:31,965 --> 00:13:34,065
Then, then, then you, you
decide to blow the bottom

425
00:13:34,065 --> 00:13:36,945
out of the boat by, by
riling up the current CEO.

426
00:13:37,365 --> 00:13:39,975
Now you've got double
the trouble at least.

427
00:13:40,425 --> 00:13:40,665
Yeah.

428
00:13:40,665 --> 00:13:42,105
If, if you can even
get anybody to walk

429
00:13:42,110 --> 00:13:42,190
into that.

430
00:13:42,875 --> 00:13:44,945
It doesn't just stop there
because that CEO is also

431
00:13:44,945 --> 00:13:46,775
tied to all the people
that work in the company.

432
00:13:46,775 --> 00:13:48,395
'cause they recruited
all of those people.

433
00:13:48,755 --> 00:13:49,085
Okay.

434
00:13:49,085 --> 00:13:49,145
Yeah.

435
00:13:49,475 --> 00:13:52,805
So now I am pissed off
outbound, CEO, the founder

436
00:13:52,805 --> 00:13:53,705
getting, getting booted.

437
00:13:54,155 --> 00:13:57,635
And now I'm gonna go on the
campaign trail to everybody

438
00:13:57,755 --> 00:14:00,455
internally and, and I'm
gonna start, it's, it's

439
00:14:00,455 --> 00:14:01,415
called coalition building.

440
00:14:01,685 --> 00:14:03,845
I'm, I'm gonna start
coalition building, right?

441
00:14:03,845 --> 00:14:05,915
Saying, oh my God, aren't
these investors stupid?

442
00:14:05,915 --> 00:14:08,345
And I'm really just trying
to protect my ego, but

443
00:14:08,345 --> 00:14:10,535
regardless what a nightmare.

444
00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:11,100
Yeah.

445
00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:11,820
For the investors?

446
00:14:11,820 --> 00:14:14,070
Yeah, for the, for the
investors, for the inbound.

447
00:14:14,070 --> 00:14:14,340
Yeah.

448
00:14:14,370 --> 00:14:15,990
It's, it's, it's
absolutely untenable.

449
00:14:16,530 --> 00:14:16,979
Right.

450
00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,199
And so for the investors,
they're like, dude, we gotta

451
00:14:19,199 --> 00:14:20,459
make sure that does not happen.

452
00:14:20,849 --> 00:14:26,040
So if, if we put will off in
office exile and have no one

453
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,280
report to him, but he still
feels like he has his job,

454
00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,160
he's still getting paid, he
still feels like he has a voice

455
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,969
in everything, then that's
a best case scenario for us.

456
00:14:36,150 --> 00:14:37,560
And that's why we
didn't just fire him.

457
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,540
A million other legal
reasons and everything.

458
00:14:39,540 --> 00:14:40,979
But I mean, the optics really

459
00:14:40,979 --> 00:14:41,610
matter in this case.

460
00:14:41,610 --> 00:14:42,000
You know what I mean?

461
00:14:42,329 --> 00:14:42,750
It does.

462
00:14:42,750 --> 00:14:44,969
I mean, especially, I mean
with, again, depending on

463
00:14:45,089 --> 00:14:48,930
how well liked or not the
CEO, the founder was that

464
00:14:48,989 --> 00:14:50,280
internal politics even.

465
00:14:50,310 --> 00:14:53,819
Even without the CEO, the
founder, the outbound.

466
00:14:54,180 --> 00:14:58,140
Trying to rile things up, even
without them trying to to cause

467
00:14:58,140 --> 00:15:00,450
trouble, it still can, right.

468
00:15:00,630 --> 00:15:02,820
I guess said differently if
they're, if they're not there

469
00:15:02,820 --> 00:15:06,480
as a peacemaker and trying
to ease that transition and

470
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,590
supporting all of that, it's
gonna go at least suboptimally,

471
00:15:10,590 --> 00:15:11,880
if not extremely poorly.

472
00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,120
Um, and so in the case where
they actually do make the

473
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:16,500
attempt, then even worse.

474
00:15:17,205 --> 00:15:19,155
Smart investor understands
the value of this.

475
00:15:19,335 --> 00:15:22,755
You only have to go through
a blown up CEO one time

476
00:15:22,965 --> 00:15:25,155
to realize why you never
wanna do that again.

477
00:15:25,575 --> 00:15:28,485
And every now and again, you
see this every now and again,

478
00:15:28,485 --> 00:15:32,535
you see the CEO just like
firing hot lead back at the

479
00:15:32,535 --> 00:15:34,095
investors publicly, et cetera.

480
00:15:34,365 --> 00:15:36,285
And it's an absolute shit
show because remember.

481
00:15:36,590 --> 00:15:39,710
It's not just about preventing
that the next CEO from being

482
00:15:39,710 --> 00:15:42,710
recruited, et cetera, think of
all the potential employees that

483
00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:45,950
see this, customers that see
this, investors that see this.

484
00:15:45,950 --> 00:15:47,330
'cause you probably
need more dough.

485
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,690
No one wants, wants to do
with that hot, steaming piece

486
00:15:50,690 --> 00:15:53,000
of shit, which is something
we're gonna talk about a

487
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,220
little bit later in this chat
about kind of how that gives

488
00:15:55,220 --> 00:15:56,210
you a little bit of leverage.

489
00:15:56,870 --> 00:15:59,120
But if someone comes to me,
the founder comes to me.

490
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,339
And says, Hey, someone on
the board seems, uh, wants

491
00:16:02,339 --> 00:16:04,680
to, uh, pulled me aside,
and it seemed like they were

492
00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:06,360
floating this crazy idea
that they're thinking about.

493
00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,130
Maybe find another CEO Ryan.

494
00:16:08,130 --> 00:16:09,600
What would you tell
them in that case?

495
00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:09,630
Uh,

496
00:16:09,630 --> 00:16:11,939
yeah, they're, they're not
thinking about maybe, um,

497
00:16:11,939 --> 00:16:14,250
they've already probably
identified the candidates,

498
00:16:14,250 --> 00:16:16,740
like by the time they, by the
time, you know, all right.

499
00:16:16,740 --> 00:16:18,209
It's, it's done for, right.

500
00:16:18,209 --> 00:16:20,310
That that is not an
early warning sign.

501
00:16:20,730 --> 00:16:20,910
Right?

502
00:16:20,910 --> 00:16:21,930
That's that, yeah.

503
00:16:22,260 --> 00:16:24,750
The expiration date is already
passed at that point you're

504
00:16:24,750 --> 00:16:26,165
on and it's hard to wrap your
head around somewhere else.

505
00:16:26,685 --> 00:16:27,285
It is, right?

506
00:16:27,285 --> 00:16:27,704
Like, yeah.

507
00:16:27,704 --> 00:16:30,525
It's, it's a huge, it's a huge
surprise because then all of

508
00:16:30,525 --> 00:16:32,865
a sudden it feels like the
company, at least the investors,

509
00:16:32,865 --> 00:16:35,714
the board, somebody's been
conspiring against you, right?

510
00:16:35,714 --> 00:16:36,765
And that, that can, which sucks.

511
00:16:36,974 --> 00:16:37,425
It does.

512
00:16:37,430 --> 00:16:38,324
It, it feels awful.

513
00:16:38,564 --> 00:16:41,474
And to be fair, even if
they're good people, they have

514
00:16:41,474 --> 00:16:42,464
been conspiring against you.

515
00:16:42,974 --> 00:16:44,594
That's exactly
what they're doing.

516
00:16:44,594 --> 00:16:44,865
Right.

517
00:16:45,285 --> 00:16:47,594
And maybe to be fair, maybe
for the right reasons,

518
00:16:47,594 --> 00:16:50,355
like maybe like you're the
only person that can't see

519
00:16:50,355 --> 00:16:51,915
what's going wrong here now.

520
00:16:52,340 --> 00:16:55,100
Ryan, you and I have a, a
different opinion of founders.

521
00:16:55,100 --> 00:16:56,900
Like we believe founders
should lead companies.

522
00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:57,230
Yes.

523
00:16:57,230 --> 00:16:59,420
I'm not saying that they're
infinitely qualified, no one's

524
00:16:59,420 --> 00:17:02,180
ever more qualified, but I
think that the, the, the old

525
00:17:02,180 --> 00:17:04,880
investor thing where we gotta
bring in season management,

526
00:17:04,910 --> 00:17:07,130
I'm like, yeah, no,
we gotta throw a new

527
00:17:07,130 --> 00:17:08,450
quarterback in mid-season.

528
00:17:08,569 --> 00:17:08,750
Right.

529
00:17:08,750 --> 00:17:10,190
Have they ever thrown
this ball before?

530
00:17:10,190 --> 00:17:10,550
No.

531
00:17:10,550 --> 00:17:11,780
It's a different,
it's hard like.

532
00:17:12,109 --> 00:17:13,399
I think it rarely works out.

533
00:17:13,399 --> 00:17:14,750
That doesn't mean that it
doesn't happen with some

534
00:17:14,750 --> 00:17:15,739
frequency though, right?

535
00:17:15,739 --> 00:17:16,849
So think that's, the two
things have to separate.

536
00:17:16,849 --> 00:17:17,599
Does this ever work?

537
00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:18,199
Not really.

538
00:17:18,199 --> 00:17:18,949
Do they still try it a

539
00:17:18,949 --> 00:17:19,159
lot?

540
00:17:19,159 --> 00:17:20,329
Yeah, all the time.

541
00:17:20,329 --> 00:17:22,639
'cause it, it sounds like,
Hey, this person's 24,

542
00:17:22,849 --> 00:17:25,909
let's get the person who's
54 and show everybody how

543
00:17:25,909 --> 00:17:26,929
management should run.

544
00:17:27,290 --> 00:17:28,790
And it's like, yes,
they can do that.

545
00:17:28,790 --> 00:17:30,379
And again, we've done
whole episodes on this.

546
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,989
Yes, we can bring in someone
with more experience.

547
00:17:33,139 --> 00:17:34,939
It doesn't
necessarily make them.

548
00:17:35,620 --> 00:17:36,040
Better.

549
00:17:36,310 --> 00:17:36,490
Right?

550
00:17:36,490 --> 00:17:39,070
There's something very unique
about the founder running a

551
00:17:39,070 --> 00:17:44,320
company that we've seen time in
time, in time again and again.

552
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:45,940
I'm, I'm not saying there,
there, like you said, Brian,

553
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,100
that there aren't cases
otherwise where someone brings

554
00:17:48,100 --> 00:17:50,440
in a very capable, not founder.

555
00:17:51,210 --> 00:17:53,550
You, you could point to
Tim Cook, you could point

556
00:17:53,550 --> 00:17:55,080
to, uh, Dara at Uber.

557
00:17:55,110 --> 00:17:57,420
Like there are cases where
there clearly are people,

558
00:17:57,420 --> 00:18:00,240
but I would argue that by the
time it got to that point,

559
00:18:00,270 --> 00:18:01,470
the company was that big.

560
00:18:01,830 --> 00:18:03,450
It's just big company
at that point.

561
00:18:03,450 --> 00:18:03,630
Right?

562
00:18:03,630 --> 00:18:04,020
Yeah.

563
00:18:04,260 --> 00:18:05,010
Put whomever in it.

564
00:18:05,010 --> 00:18:05,490
I'm not saying it's

565
00:18:05,495 --> 00:18:06,360
very, very different.

566
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:07,200
Yeah.

567
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:08,370
I'm not knocking
their capabilities.

568
00:18:08,370 --> 00:18:10,050
I'm saying that's where
the founder isn't as

569
00:18:10,050 --> 00:18:10,800
important anymore.

570
00:18:10,890 --> 00:18:11,190
Right.

571
00:18:11,190 --> 00:18:11,550
Isn't as

572
00:18:11,550 --> 00:18:11,940
important.

573
00:18:11,940 --> 00:18:14,250
And, and like in that case,
the founder wasn't bad.

574
00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:18,090
The company outgrew what,
what that founder was, was

575
00:18:18,090 --> 00:18:20,100
great at, or what the, the
company needed at that point.

576
00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:20,110
Right.

577
00:18:20,570 --> 00:18:20,780
Yeah.

578
00:18:21,020 --> 00:18:21,350
Yeah.

579
00:18:21,350 --> 00:18:23,000
Also, like you have to, you
have to recognize, like when

580
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:24,650
we've said this before in
the podcast, he wouldn't have

581
00:18:24,650 --> 00:18:27,980
taken Apple from zero to one
or zero to 50, but he can

582
00:18:27,980 --> 00:18:29,240
take it from 90 to a hundred.

583
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,670
He's a great ops guy,
fantastic operator.

584
00:18:31,730 --> 00:18:32,060
Right?

585
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:33,980
But like, it's
not, not a founder.

586
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,160
So, but let's go back
to, I just got this call,

587
00:18:37,220 --> 00:18:38,360
I just got this text.

588
00:18:38,660 --> 00:18:40,520
Investors just sent me something
that seems a, a little.

589
00:18:41,030 --> 00:18:41,480
Off.

590
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:41,870
Right.

591
00:18:41,870 --> 00:18:43,550
I know things are a little
bit tense, you know, in the

592
00:18:43,550 --> 00:18:46,160
last board meeting, but I
just got this, this message

593
00:18:46,460 --> 00:18:48,920
and they said, Hey, we need
to talk to you about, see

594
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,200
if there's another option to
bring somebody in as a CEO.

595
00:18:51,740 --> 00:18:53,180
Just gonna pause right there.

596
00:18:53,810 --> 00:18:56,300
No, like we said, no
one tells you that.

597
00:18:56,565 --> 00:18:58,545
Unless they've already decided
that they're going to do it.

598
00:18:58,695 --> 00:18:58,845
Okay.

599
00:18:58,845 --> 00:19:00,945
No one trial balloons
that one, okay.

600
00:19:00,945 --> 00:19:01,175
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

601
00:19:01,185 --> 00:19:02,925
So let's fast forward
through this a little bit.

602
00:19:03,015 --> 00:19:05,745
By the time you're getting
that message, you can fight

603
00:19:05,745 --> 00:19:07,185
it and, and hopefully you win.

604
00:19:07,395 --> 00:19:09,105
You probably won't,
but hopefully you win.

605
00:19:09,255 --> 00:19:09,525
Okay?

606
00:19:09,915 --> 00:19:12,075
But at which point the
situation's gotten that bad,

607
00:19:12,195 --> 00:19:14,415
at which point someone's
written up divorce papers.

608
00:19:15,034 --> 00:19:17,405
That's because they plan
on getting divorced, right?

609
00:19:17,465 --> 00:19:17,645
Yeah.

610
00:19:17,645 --> 00:19:19,625
You can fight it, but you gotta
understand how it got here,

611
00:19:19,685 --> 00:19:21,784
just in case we
ever needed these.

612
00:19:21,784 --> 00:19:24,365
I'm gonna stick them in the safe
next to the birth certificates,

613
00:19:24,365 --> 00:19:26,705
but just, just in case we
ever needed these things.

614
00:19:26,795 --> 00:19:26,885
Right?

615
00:19:26,885 --> 00:19:29,735
Like, you know, there's
a reason that happens.

616
00:19:29,945 --> 00:19:30,274
Yeah.

617
00:19:30,274 --> 00:19:33,995
And so at that point, the
hardest thing for a founder to.

618
00:19:35,010 --> 00:19:36,000
Accept what just happened.

619
00:19:36,300 --> 00:19:36,629
Yeah.

620
00:19:36,635 --> 00:19:36,715
Yeah.

621
00:19:37,020 --> 00:19:38,040
I'm divided on this, Ryan.

622
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,920
'cause part of me thinks you
should fight it and part of

623
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,139
me is like, I already know
you're probably going to lose.

624
00:19:43,139 --> 00:19:46,260
So let's accept it in a way
that's beneficial to us.

625
00:19:46,260 --> 00:19:46,860
What's your thought?

626
00:19:47,070 --> 00:19:50,430
Yeah, I think it's one of
those where like as per usual,

627
00:19:50,430 --> 00:19:51,480
I'd want more information.

628
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,139
Like I'd want to be
able to understand.

629
00:19:55,695 --> 00:19:57,375
Like what's actually
going on, right?

630
00:19:57,375 --> 00:19:59,475
Is, is there some
deficit in what the CEO

631
00:19:59,475 --> 00:20:00,495
EO and founder's doing?

632
00:20:00,765 --> 00:20:02,685
Um, is this really just opinion?

633
00:20:02,925 --> 00:20:05,235
Is there really any chance,
I think this is what you and

634
00:20:05,235 --> 00:20:06,795
I are always gonna come back
to the same point, which

635
00:20:06,795 --> 00:20:09,285
is that is there actually a
likelihood that whoever comes

636
00:20:09,285 --> 00:20:11,955
in next is going to be able
to do a better job of this?

637
00:20:12,165 --> 00:20:14,535
Maybe the one thing you're
fixing, I think we talked about

638
00:20:14,565 --> 00:20:17,265
this in other episodes, I'm not
gonna beat this up too much, but

639
00:20:17,265 --> 00:20:19,965
yeah, they might like, whatever
that one deficit is that you're

640
00:20:19,965 --> 00:20:21,555
replacing that person for.

641
00:20:21,875 --> 00:20:23,615
What about all the other stuff
that they were really good at?

642
00:20:23,615 --> 00:20:25,715
Is this new person gonna
also be great at those?

643
00:20:25,715 --> 00:20:27,575
Are you picking somebody
who does the one thing?

644
00:20:27,575 --> 00:20:29,585
Let's just say, I'll go sports.

645
00:20:29,585 --> 00:20:30,215
I'll go sports.

646
00:20:30,425 --> 00:20:31,445
You can't throw a slider.

647
00:20:31,445 --> 00:20:32,225
They bring in somebody.

648
00:20:32,285 --> 00:20:32,855
Absolutely.

649
00:20:32,945 --> 00:20:34,175
You know, crush a slider.

650
00:20:34,415 --> 00:20:36,215
Can't throw a fastball,
can't throw a curve.

651
00:20:36,215 --> 00:20:36,365
Can't.

652
00:20:36,365 --> 00:20:36,605
Right.

653
00:20:36,605 --> 00:20:37,595
And, and Right.

654
00:20:37,865 --> 00:20:40,415
So like, are you giving up
more than you're getting?

655
00:20:40,415 --> 00:20:41,825
And so, yeah.

656
00:20:42,185 --> 00:20:43,140
I think to your point though.

657
00:20:43,845 --> 00:20:46,125
You're fighting from your
back a hundred percent.

658
00:20:46,155 --> 00:20:48,945
'cause at that point, by the
time you know about it, the

659
00:20:48,945 --> 00:20:50,805
conspiracy is already happening.

660
00:20:51,075 --> 00:20:54,045
You are probably
so far behind that.

661
00:20:54,045 --> 00:20:56,235
Mounting an offense
at this point is gonna

662
00:20:56,235 --> 00:20:57,465
be nearly impossible.

663
00:20:57,465 --> 00:20:58,905
You're just gonna wear
yourself out further.

664
00:20:59,175 --> 00:21:00,675
And as you said, and I think
we'll, we'll get to it a

665
00:21:00,675 --> 00:21:03,465
little bit later, but there
is some possible leverage for

666
00:21:03,465 --> 00:21:04,665
the founder in these cases.

667
00:21:04,930 --> 00:21:06,670
There can be some
outcomes that get created.

668
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,700
You know, something that's
really funny about everything

669
00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:13,180
we talk about here is
that none of it is new.

670
00:21:13,420 --> 00:21:16,000
Everything you're dealing
with right now has been done a

671
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,840
thousand times before you, which
means the answer already exists.

672
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:20,780
You may just not know it.

673
00:21:20,930 --> 00:21:21,710
But that's okay.

674
00:21:22,070 --> 00:21:23,900
That's kind of what
we're here to do.

675
00:21:23,900 --> 00:21:26,540
We talk about this stuff on
the show, but we actually

676
00:21:26,540 --> 00:21:30,680
solve these problems all
dayLong@groups.startups.com.

677
00:21:30,740 --> 00:21:34,040
So if any of this sounds
familiar, stop guessing

678
00:21:34,100 --> 00:21:37,070
about what to do, let us just
give you the answers to the

679
00:21:37,070 --> 00:21:38,450
test and be done with it.

680
00:21:39,050 --> 00:21:42,170
I think step one is, let's
call, call it what it is, right?

681
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:43,760
Let's call it what it is.

682
00:21:43,970 --> 00:21:47,060
The board had enough of
you and they fired you.

683
00:21:47,655 --> 00:21:47,865
Yeah.

684
00:21:48,075 --> 00:21:50,175
Uh, they're gonna call
it something else because

685
00:21:50,265 --> 00:21:51,795
again, they don't want
you to create a stink.

686
00:21:51,795 --> 00:21:53,955
They're, they're gonna say,
Hey, wouldn't it be great if we

687
00:21:53,955 --> 00:21:56,625
just focus that you're, you're
part on strategy or product

688
00:21:56,625 --> 00:21:57,525
or whatever you're good at?

689
00:21:57,525 --> 00:21:59,475
And that's just a different
way of saying, here's how

690
00:21:59,475 --> 00:22:00,135
we're gonna get rid of you.

691
00:22:00,270 --> 00:22:03,900
And like, I'm not
demonizing the investors.

692
00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:05,250
This is what they have to do.

693
00:22:05,250 --> 00:22:06,120
This is their job.

694
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:08,040
I'll wake up in the morning
and say, I can't wait to

695
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:09,930
like, you know, create this,
all this consternation.

696
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,440
Um, some 'em are better at
doing it regardless, but it

697
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,690
sucks for them too, just like
it sucks to let someone go.

698
00:22:16,170 --> 00:22:19,800
That said, there has to be a
version that some point for

699
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,320
us for as founders, where
we go out like a gentleman.

700
00:22:22,650 --> 00:22:22,889
Yeah.

701
00:22:23,310 --> 00:22:24,900
That's a big deal.

702
00:22:25,140 --> 00:22:25,950
It's a big deal, man.

703
00:22:26,010 --> 00:22:27,750
It's, but I think all
of that leverage that

704
00:22:27,750 --> 00:22:30,300
we'll talk about later is
predicated on that, right?

705
00:22:30,300 --> 00:22:34,200
Because you, you either, you
either choose to leverage

706
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,050
this at some point, or you
choose to fight it now.

707
00:22:37,110 --> 00:22:39,420
And if you fight now,
the leverage later is,

708
00:22:39,420 --> 00:22:41,100
is largely gonna be lost.

709
00:22:41,730 --> 00:22:43,379
I, like you said, you gotta
call it what it is, man.

710
00:22:43,590 --> 00:22:46,500
Uh, polite, firing,
or, or reassignment.

711
00:22:47,085 --> 00:22:48,015
You still got fired, right.

712
00:22:48,015 --> 00:22:48,435
I call it what?

713
00:22:48,525 --> 00:22:52,455
It's, it's it's firing your
comeback fantasies, um, are

714
00:22:52,455 --> 00:22:57,375
nothing but a liability to
the, the board, the investors,

715
00:22:57,375 --> 00:22:58,545
the new, the new CEO.

716
00:22:58,695 --> 00:22:58,965
Right.

717
00:22:58,965 --> 00:22:59,235
None of

718
00:22:59,235 --> 00:23:02,625
this stuff, any reasonable
founder Ryan, is going to

719
00:23:02,625 --> 00:23:04,335
have a comeback fantasy.

720
00:23:04,545 --> 00:23:05,115
A hundred percent.

721
00:23:05,385 --> 00:23:07,815
But it, it's just, just like
a relationship where someone

722
00:23:07,815 --> 00:23:10,425
broke up with you, where
you're like, oh, they'll see

723
00:23:10,425 --> 00:23:12,345
what the mistake they made
and they'll have me back and

724
00:23:12,345 --> 00:23:13,185
everything will be great.

725
00:23:13,215 --> 00:23:13,395
Yeah.

726
00:23:13,395 --> 00:23:13,425
Okay.

727
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:15,150
That happens.

728
00:23:15,210 --> 00:23:16,650
Almost never.

729
00:23:16,890 --> 00:23:17,310
Okay.

730
00:23:17,695 --> 00:23:19,770
And, and, and I wanna
cite a few examples.

731
00:23:20,220 --> 00:23:22,770
You could say it happened to
Steve Job, he, he gets replaced,

732
00:23:22,860 --> 00:23:24,840
uh, by John Scully, right?

733
00:23:25,170 --> 00:23:26,460
Uh, they, they bring
him, I think it was

734
00:23:26,460 --> 00:23:27,300
from Pepsi at the time.

735
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,150
Scully fucks everything up
and they bring jobs back and

736
00:23:30,150 --> 00:23:31,515
he creates one of the most
valuable companies in history.

737
00:23:32,385 --> 00:23:33,135
Yes, that happens.

738
00:23:33,195 --> 00:23:33,345
Yeah.

739
00:23:33,375 --> 00:23:35,475
Howard Schultz had a different
version from Starbucks.

740
00:23:35,475 --> 00:23:35,715
Right.

741
00:23:35,715 --> 00:23:36,555
But they brought him back.

742
00:23:36,555 --> 00:23:39,285
Uhhuh, uh, Jack Dorsey, they
brought back when t Twitter

743
00:23:39,285 --> 00:23:41,235
was a huge shit show and then
just became a bigger one.

744
00:23:41,625 --> 00:23:43,725
Um, yeah, my sure
actually worked out.

745
00:23:43,995 --> 00:23:46,665
There are star founders
that get brought back.

746
00:23:46,785 --> 00:23:47,175
Okay.

747
00:23:47,385 --> 00:23:48,825
I'm not saying you have
to be a star founder.

748
00:23:48,825 --> 00:23:50,175
I'm saying even here.

749
00:23:50,175 --> 00:23:50,955
Here's what I'm trying to say.

750
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:51,060
Yeah.

751
00:23:51,065 --> 00:23:51,375
Yeah.

752
00:23:51,435 --> 00:23:53,325
Even some of the biggest names.

753
00:23:53,639 --> 00:23:55,379
Went through some
version of this.

754
00:23:55,379 --> 00:23:58,260
So, so bear in mind this
isn't just a, you know, I,

755
00:23:58,260 --> 00:23:59,580
I'm not fit for this game.

756
00:23:59,790 --> 00:23:59,939
No.

757
00:23:59,939 --> 00:24:01,560
Those people were
very fit for the game.

758
00:24:01,770 --> 00:24:01,830
Yeah.

759
00:24:01,830 --> 00:24:03,720
And had very similar
kind of paths.

760
00:24:04,110 --> 00:24:08,520
But the problem is we sit there
and go, well I'm just gonna kind

761
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,699
of stew here until I can figure
out how to like, you know, mount

762
00:24:11,699 --> 00:24:12,780
my, my Napoleonic comeback.

763
00:24:12,780 --> 00:24:13,919
Yeah, yeah,

764
00:24:13,919 --> 00:24:14,490
exactly.

765
00:24:14,865 --> 00:24:18,135
And I'm like, that's a bad idea.

766
00:24:18,285 --> 00:24:20,865
Yeah, because it, it's
exactly what, why nobody

767
00:24:20,865 --> 00:24:21,465
wants you there.

768
00:24:21,525 --> 00:24:21,735
You know what

769
00:24:21,735 --> 00:24:21,915
I mean?

770
00:24:22,125 --> 00:24:22,305
Yeah.

771
00:24:22,305 --> 00:24:26,145
I mean, look, if, if your
return plan requires the

772
00:24:26,145 --> 00:24:28,455
company's failure, you, you're
not planning, you're, you're

773
00:24:28,455 --> 00:24:30,170
cursing, you're dooming the
company, you're plotting,

774
00:24:30,255 --> 00:24:31,455
you're, you're plotting, right?

775
00:24:31,455 --> 00:24:32,085
Like Yeah.

776
00:24:32,085 --> 00:24:33,975
You don't want to be, that

777
00:24:33,975 --> 00:24:34,845
happens all the time.

778
00:24:34,875 --> 00:24:35,175
Yeah, it does.

779
00:24:35,175 --> 00:24:36,285
Happens all the time.

780
00:24:36,465 --> 00:24:38,325
'cause emotionally
we feel invalidated.

781
00:24:38,325 --> 00:24:38,955
How could we not?

782
00:24:39,165 --> 00:24:40,155
Yeah, I, I, I get it.

783
00:24:40,155 --> 00:24:40,665
How could you not?

784
00:24:41,024 --> 00:24:43,635
And we look at it as, you
know, we don't feel like we

785
00:24:43,635 --> 00:24:46,125
were respected, you know, in,
in the, the, the way we felt.

786
00:24:46,125 --> 00:24:47,355
Like we put so much
work into this.

787
00:24:47,715 --> 00:24:50,504
And there's a, this big
giant hole where sometimes

788
00:24:50,504 --> 00:24:52,725
embarrassed, sometimes
humiliated, sometimes all,

789
00:24:52,725 --> 00:24:53,745
all these emotions, right?

790
00:24:54,165 --> 00:24:56,175
And if you're listening to
this and you're like, Hey,

791
00:24:56,175 --> 00:24:58,274
I was feeling some of that,
here's what I'm gonna say.

792
00:24:58,395 --> 00:24:59,220
How could you not?

793
00:25:00,060 --> 00:25:00,360
Right.

794
00:25:01,139 --> 00:25:02,340
Yeah, that that's
the actually thing.

795
00:25:02,340 --> 00:25:03,450
I just got divorced.

796
00:25:03,450 --> 00:25:03,750
Right.

797
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,639
And man, I feel bad about it.

798
00:25:05,700 --> 00:25:06,480
Of course you do.

799
00:25:06,659 --> 00:25:07,100
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

800
00:25:07,379 --> 00:25:08,820
It's not about how
you feel in this case.

801
00:25:08,820 --> 00:25:09,030
Yes.

802
00:25:09,030 --> 00:25:09,930
You have those feelings.

803
00:25:10,409 --> 00:25:12,960
How you act based on those
feelings is what's going to

804
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,060
dictate what happens next.

805
00:25:15,090 --> 00:25:15,480
Right.

806
00:25:15,659 --> 00:25:17,040
So let's talk about
how to make the most of

807
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:17,129
it.

808
00:25:17,430 --> 00:25:17,639
Right.

809
00:25:17,639 --> 00:25:19,950
Let's talk about how,
if you're going through

810
00:25:19,950 --> 00:25:21,210
this, what can we do?

811
00:25:21,710 --> 00:25:24,830
What can we do to actually
make like a little bit

812
00:25:24,830 --> 00:25:25,880
of silver lining here?

813
00:25:25,940 --> 00:25:28,190
And by the way, the path
we're about to go through

814
00:25:28,460 --> 00:25:32,060
isn't a emotional, just
make you feel better.

815
00:25:32,390 --> 00:25:34,640
We're talking about like,
how does this actually

816
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:35,540
work in your favor?

817
00:25:35,540 --> 00:25:37,070
Like what are some
things you can do?

818
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:38,630
What leverage do
you have, right?

819
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,215
To actually get something
out of this transition.

820
00:25:41,835 --> 00:25:43,905
So, so hold onto that thought
for a second, because this

821
00:25:43,905 --> 00:25:44,895
is an interesting point.

822
00:25:45,105 --> 00:25:46,215
What's your opinion on this?

823
00:25:46,215 --> 00:25:48,525
If, if you find yourself in
this situation, let's say

824
00:25:48,525 --> 00:25:51,285
you've been given, you haven't
been outright fired yet.

825
00:25:51,315 --> 00:25:53,055
Maybe they're not even
saying that they're, they're

826
00:25:53,055 --> 00:25:56,235
playing the COI game and you
have now been made chairman

827
00:25:56,235 --> 00:25:58,155
of the east wing of the
building, we don't even own.

828
00:25:58,155 --> 00:25:58,305
Right.

829
00:25:58,305 --> 00:25:58,875
Whatever it is.

830
00:25:58,875 --> 00:26:00,435
Like you've been, you
clearly, like, you're like.

831
00:26:00,715 --> 00:26:02,274
I've just been put
out to pasture.

832
00:26:02,725 --> 00:26:03,925
Do you address it head on?

833
00:26:04,014 --> 00:26:06,264
Do you go at them and
you say like, let's turn

834
00:26:06,264 --> 00:26:08,725
this into a negotiation,
and how do you do that?

835
00:26:08,725 --> 00:26:11,514
Like, do you confront it
directly or do you say like,

836
00:26:11,514 --> 00:26:14,455
how do I make the most out
of what they're handing me?

837
00:26:14,784 --> 00:26:15,415
Great setup.

838
00:26:15,685 --> 00:26:17,185
Here's how to walk out

839
00:26:17,274 --> 00:26:19,254
like a pro, right?

840
00:26:19,254 --> 00:26:20,455
Here's how to walk
out like a pro.

841
00:26:21,145 --> 00:26:24,145
First things first, say,
listen, I understand the

842
00:26:24,175 --> 00:26:25,314
challenges are what they are.

843
00:26:25,345 --> 00:26:27,475
You know, some of it I,
I don't agree with, but

844
00:26:27,475 --> 00:26:28,675
from this point forward.

845
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,260
I wanna be on your
side of the table.

846
00:26:32,070 --> 00:26:32,310
Okay.

847
00:26:32,310 --> 00:26:34,500
This is such a
critical positioning.

848
00:26:34,770 --> 00:26:34,890
Yeah.

849
00:26:34,890 --> 00:26:35,100
Okay.

850
00:26:35,370 --> 00:26:37,380
From this point forward
investor person who you

851
00:26:37,380 --> 00:26:40,830
thought we were gonna be
enemies in this, I wanna be

852
00:26:40,830 --> 00:26:42,090
on your side of the table.

853
00:26:42,300 --> 00:26:43,980
I wanna do what's
best for the company.

854
00:26:44,340 --> 00:26:45,629
And what's best for our outcome?

855
00:26:45,660 --> 00:26:47,490
'cause I wanna make sure
we're in perfect alignment.

856
00:26:47,670 --> 00:26:47,910
Okay.

857
00:26:47,910 --> 00:26:50,129
I love this so much because
this also feels like feeding

858
00:26:50,129 --> 00:26:52,110
them back some of their
bullshit lines from early on

859
00:26:52,110 --> 00:26:54,540
when they're like, let's sit
on the same side of the table.

860
00:26:54,540 --> 00:26:54,690
Right?

861
00:26:54,690 --> 00:26:54,750
Yeah.

862
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,010
This is, I, I'm telling

863
00:26:56,010 --> 00:26:58,830
you man, I this, this is, this
is money in the bank feels like

864
00:26:58,830 --> 00:26:59,730
sweet justice

865
00:26:59,940 --> 00:27:00,180
it.

866
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:01,920
Well, okay, so, but
it does a few things.

867
00:27:02,010 --> 00:27:02,160
Okay?

868
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:03,360
Now this is where
it gets interesting.

869
00:27:03,750 --> 00:27:06,270
Once you're on their side
of the table, then you can

870
00:27:06,270 --> 00:27:09,000
say things like, well, what
should the CEO's comp be?

871
00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:12,000
Or you can, and again, what I'm
saying is like, you can say.

872
00:27:12,290 --> 00:27:14,180
I don't wanna look at it
from, what didn't I get?

873
00:27:14,185 --> 00:27:15,379
Or, or, or whatever.

874
00:27:15,500 --> 00:27:17,450
I wanna look at it as, Hey,
I know a lot about this

875
00:27:17,450 --> 00:27:20,240
business as you do what
is best for the business.

876
00:27:20,570 --> 00:27:24,800
And what, what I would
say openly is, look, my

877
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,560
job continues to be what
is best for the business.

878
00:27:27,740 --> 00:27:29,570
It sucks that I don't
have the CEO job.

879
00:27:29,570 --> 00:27:29,960
Honestly.

880
00:27:30,590 --> 00:27:31,490
That hurts a bit, right?

881
00:27:31,490 --> 00:27:33,470
I'm just, you know, being
vulnerable, it hurts.

882
00:27:33,590 --> 00:27:35,659
But I'm a big boy and
this is, this is, it's an

883
00:27:35,659 --> 00:27:36,740
important moment for me.

884
00:27:36,919 --> 00:27:38,780
And, and I tell founders
in that, in that

885
00:27:38,780 --> 00:27:39,530
moment, by the way.

886
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,510
This is one of the single
most important moments

887
00:27:42,510 --> 00:27:43,710
of your life, right?

888
00:27:43,710 --> 00:27:47,670
Like as critical
chapters go, this today

889
00:27:48,270 --> 00:27:49,680
is a critical chapter.

890
00:27:50,130 --> 00:27:51,120
Do not fuck this up.

891
00:27:51,150 --> 00:27:51,330
Yeah.

892
00:27:51,540 --> 00:27:51,780
Right?

893
00:27:52,260 --> 00:27:53,670
And, and here's
how you fuck it up.

894
00:27:53,940 --> 00:27:56,400
You fuck it up by going
ape shit and you just,

895
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:57,510
you lay into everybody.

896
00:27:57,510 --> 00:28:00,330
You, you lay into the board,
you start doing the coalition

897
00:28:00,330 --> 00:28:02,370
building where you get all,
all your cronies that are

898
00:28:02,370 --> 00:28:04,620
in the company and tell them
like what a bunch of idiots,

899
00:28:04,620 --> 00:28:06,630
the, the, uh, the boards
are and like, et cetera.

900
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:08,850
And you basically
poison the well.

901
00:28:09,389 --> 00:28:10,199
Worst case scenario.

902
00:28:10,230 --> 00:28:12,000
Now, let's go back
to the leverage.

903
00:28:12,389 --> 00:28:13,260
The board.

904
00:28:13,709 --> 00:28:17,070
Best case scenario is that
you walk out with a smile.

905
00:28:17,429 --> 00:28:19,770
Best case scenario is that
here's what you don't do.

906
00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:22,290
You don't piss off
everybody that works there.

907
00:28:22,740 --> 00:28:25,620
You don't piss off potential
customers, potential investors,

908
00:28:25,620 --> 00:28:26,820
and most importantly.

909
00:28:27,525 --> 00:28:28,155
CEO

910
00:28:28,155 --> 00:28:29,085
O, who they're
trying to replace you

911
00:28:29,085 --> 00:28:29,235
with.

912
00:28:29,235 --> 00:28:29,835
Yeah, look,

913
00:28:29,955 --> 00:28:30,975
they want peace.

914
00:28:31,545 --> 00:28:34,125
So this is how you have to
figure out how do you send

915
00:28:34,125 --> 00:28:36,135
an invoice for peace, right?

916
00:28:36,405 --> 00:28:37,605
What's the price of peace?

917
00:28:37,605 --> 00:28:39,105
What is the price of peace?

918
00:28:39,105 --> 00:28:39,155
Is the price of peace

919
00:28:39,225 --> 00:28:40,185
right now?

920
00:28:40,185 --> 00:28:41,535
And that is a real thing.

921
00:28:41,595 --> 00:28:41,835
Yes.

922
00:28:41,835 --> 00:28:43,770
Now everybody's situation's
a little bit different.

923
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,920
Okay, so like if you just
got caught embezzling,

924
00:28:47,130 --> 00:28:50,820
probably not the time to
bring up on my Less leverage.

925
00:28:51,060 --> 00:28:51,600
Less leverage.

926
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:52,200
Yeah, exactly.

927
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:52,710
Less leverage.

928
00:28:52,980 --> 00:28:56,310
But if you're not being fired
for like, you know, like

929
00:28:56,310 --> 00:28:57,390
extreme cause like that Yeah.

930
00:28:57,390 --> 00:28:59,670
Malfeasance or
complete ineptitude.

931
00:28:59,670 --> 00:29:00,600
Yeah, absolutely.

932
00:29:00,900 --> 00:29:04,230
Uh, what you can do is you can
say, look guys, I've put in

933
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:05,820
seven years with this company.

934
00:29:05,820 --> 00:29:07,140
I've given this
company everything.

935
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:08,700
Let's talk about severance.

936
00:29:09,005 --> 00:29:10,655
That's the position
you wanna talk about.

937
00:29:10,775 --> 00:29:13,175
You wanna talk about
your exit as severance.

938
00:29:13,445 --> 00:29:13,745
Okay.

939
00:29:14,015 --> 00:29:17,375
The reason you, you isolate
it as severance is because

940
00:29:17,405 --> 00:29:19,025
everyone understands severance.

941
00:29:19,085 --> 00:29:19,415
Yeah.

942
00:29:19,595 --> 00:29:19,895
Right.

943
00:29:20,165 --> 00:29:22,085
Even shitty employees
get severance.

944
00:29:22,325 --> 00:29:22,505
Right.

945
00:29:22,505 --> 00:29:22,865
Sometimes.

946
00:29:22,865 --> 00:29:23,375
Most of the time.

947
00:29:23,405 --> 00:29:23,585
Right.

948
00:29:23,585 --> 00:29:25,385
You're also sort of saying
at that point, but you are

949
00:29:25,385 --> 00:29:27,065
saying very clearly, you're
saying, I'm going away.

950
00:29:27,465 --> 00:29:28,754
Yeah, I'm going away.

951
00:29:28,875 --> 00:29:30,675
And there is a cost, right?

952
00:29:30,705 --> 00:29:32,955
The cost to it must be paid, but
there will also be some terms

953
00:29:32,955 --> 00:29:33,225
to it,

954
00:29:33,315 --> 00:29:33,915
which is what

955
00:29:33,915 --> 00:29:35,025
they want, the terms you want.

956
00:29:35,030 --> 00:29:36,225
But founders often think in
terms of severance, Ryan,

957
00:29:36,285 --> 00:29:38,025
because we're used to giving
other people severance.

958
00:29:38,025 --> 00:29:38,955
It never occurs to us.

959
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:40,110
We get severance.

960
00:29:40,110 --> 00:29:40,800
We get severance.

961
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:40,830
Okay.

962
00:29:40,890 --> 00:29:41,160
Yeah.

963
00:29:41,370 --> 00:29:45,210
Now, there's a number of
of categories where levers

964
00:29:45,210 --> 00:29:46,440
that, that we can use mm-hmm.

965
00:29:46,500 --> 00:29:47,880
When severance, uh,
comes into play.

966
00:29:48,150 --> 00:29:48,990
Number one is cash.

967
00:29:48,990 --> 00:29:50,790
Just, you know, I've been
here this many years.

968
00:29:50,790 --> 00:29:51,390
This is, you know what?

969
00:29:51,390 --> 00:29:52,650
I think this, the
severance should be that.

970
00:29:52,650 --> 00:29:53,040
That's one.

971
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:53,310
Okay.

972
00:29:53,370 --> 00:29:54,960
And everyone kind
of understands that.

973
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,150
Number two is stock.

974
00:29:57,645 --> 00:29:59,565
I have 28% of the company.

975
00:29:59,715 --> 00:30:02,055
I am no longer in
control of my own destiny

976
00:30:02,055 --> 00:30:03,465
here as I was before.

977
00:30:03,855 --> 00:30:05,475
I'd like to be able to
cash some of those chips

978
00:30:05,475 --> 00:30:06,825
in, and that does happen.

979
00:30:06,825 --> 00:30:09,405
Just so folks understand,
that does happen.

980
00:30:09,645 --> 00:30:13,515
Again, it's a shut you up
payment, but often worth

981
00:30:13,515 --> 00:30:14,685
it to the investors, right?

982
00:30:14,685 --> 00:30:17,685
So you're not saying, I
want a million dollars just

983
00:30:17,685 --> 00:30:18,915
because I want a severance.

984
00:30:19,095 --> 00:30:21,465
You're saying I'd like to
sell back some portion of

985
00:30:21,465 --> 00:30:22,365
my stock for this amount.

986
00:30:23,170 --> 00:30:25,180
Under terms that we think are
reasonable for the company.

987
00:30:25,180 --> 00:30:25,240
Yeah.

988
00:30:25,270 --> 00:30:28,780
Gimme some liquidity because
at this point, holding equity

989
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,270
is like being a ghost in the
cap table doesn't help them

990
00:30:31,780 --> 00:30:33,520
Having a bunch of equity
tied up in a company that you

991
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,190
no longer run doesn't feel
good to you and so Correct.

992
00:30:36,250 --> 00:30:38,680
I think that that's a,
that one's probably more

993
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:39,700
common than people think.

994
00:30:40,050 --> 00:30:40,470
Correct.

995
00:30:40,500 --> 00:30:43,380
And, and, and the other side of
it is you're basically saying,

996
00:30:43,470 --> 00:30:46,260
I, the, the key here is I no
longer have control of this

997
00:30:46,260 --> 00:30:47,520
outcome the way I did before.

998
00:30:47,790 --> 00:30:51,570
And so I'd like to be able to,
to, um, convert some of that,

999
00:30:51,570 --> 00:30:54,000
you know, lack of opportunity,
if you will, into, into cash.

1000
00:30:54,330 --> 00:30:57,540
The third bucket is
whatever version of

1001
00:30:57,540 --> 00:30:58,830
your new job there is.

1002
00:30:58,860 --> 00:31:00,660
Now, I, I wanna just build
on this a little bit.

1003
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,750
You get to kind of call
your own shots here.

1004
00:31:04,139 --> 00:31:05,460
Again, it depends
on the relationship.

1005
00:31:05,460 --> 00:31:05,700
Whatever.

1006
00:31:05,815 --> 00:31:08,370
If, if, if they are so sick of
you and they hate your guts,

1007
00:31:08,370 --> 00:31:10,200
then obviously this doesn't
apply in quite the same way.

1008
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,690
But if you're gonna say,
Hey, I'm gonna be chief

1009
00:31:12,690 --> 00:31:14,940
vision officer, here's
what I'd love my job to be.

1010
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:16,860
Here's what I think that job
should be compensated as.

1011
00:31:16,860 --> 00:31:18,420
Here's what I think the
bonuses should look like.

1012
00:31:18,420 --> 00:31:19,514
Here's, you know,
like basically.

1013
00:31:20,415 --> 00:31:23,445
Take a shot at crafting
your dream job.

1014
00:31:23,505 --> 00:31:23,925
Yeah.

1015
00:31:23,925 --> 00:31:23,935
Yeah.

1016
00:31:24,345 --> 00:31:25,305
That isn't CEO.

1017
00:31:25,965 --> 00:31:26,115
Yeah.

1018
00:31:26,115 --> 00:31:27,075
What's reporting look like?

1019
00:31:27,075 --> 00:31:28,095
What's budget look like?

1020
00:31:28,095 --> 00:31:28,905
'cause there's a whole
bunch of things there.

1021
00:31:28,905 --> 00:31:29,745
'cause like if you, yeah.

1022
00:31:29,775 --> 00:31:31,395
You get, you get the
strategy role without any

1023
00:31:31,395 --> 00:31:32,955
budget, you're scrapbooking.

1024
00:31:33,195 --> 00:31:33,435
Right.

1025
00:31:34,545 --> 00:31:36,195
Strategy without budget
is just scrapbooking.

1026
00:31:36,195 --> 00:31:36,345
Right.

1027
00:31:36,345 --> 00:31:37,725
You're, you're not
actually doing anything.

1028
00:31:38,070 --> 00:31:41,970
There's a huge spectrum of
where the The board wants you.

1029
00:31:42,180 --> 00:31:42,420
Yeah.

1030
00:31:42,660 --> 00:31:42,810
Okay.

1031
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:44,910
Somewhere between we never
wanna see your face again

1032
00:31:45,330 --> 00:31:47,010
and somewhere between,
you're a key person in

1033
00:31:47,010 --> 00:31:48,690
this company, we actually
can't afford to lose you.

1034
00:31:48,900 --> 00:31:49,140
Right.

1035
00:31:49,140 --> 00:31:49,150
Yeah.

1036
00:31:49,165 --> 00:31:50,905
So like, yeah, you can't, and
both of those things happen.

1037
00:31:51,150 --> 00:31:51,270
Right.

1038
00:31:51,270 --> 00:31:51,900
And of course,

1039
00:31:51,900 --> 00:31:52,500
the full spectrum.

1040
00:31:52,650 --> 00:31:52,860
Yeah.

1041
00:31:52,860 --> 00:31:52,870
Yeah.

1042
00:31:53,070 --> 00:31:53,160
And

1043
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:54,600
so your mileage will vary.

1044
00:31:55,020 --> 00:31:58,860
That said, I think that in order
to make the most of it, there's

1045
00:31:58,860 --> 00:32:00,600
another side of this that has
nothing to do with the board,

1046
00:32:01,140 --> 00:32:05,370
which is calling it what it
is and being like, you know,

1047
00:32:05,730 --> 00:32:06,900
I'm gonna wake up tomorrow.

1048
00:32:07,725 --> 00:32:10,455
This is going to be
someone else's problem.

1049
00:32:10,514 --> 00:32:10,875
Mm-hmm.

1050
00:32:11,625 --> 00:32:14,115
And for someone who's been in
the shit, especially when you

1051
00:32:14,115 --> 00:32:16,754
get to this point for who's
been in the shit for this

1052
00:32:16,844 --> 00:32:21,794
long, Ryan for this long to
wake up tomorrow morning and

1053
00:32:21,794 --> 00:32:27,044
being like, huh, that's not
my problem, is like a billion

1054
00:32:27,044 --> 00:32:28,185
pounds off your shoulders.

1055
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,960
I gotta tell you, by the
time anybody gets to this

1056
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,170
point, they absolutely
deserve and need that break.

1057
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:35,910
I don't know of anybody
that gets to that point

1058
00:32:35,910 --> 00:32:37,650
that's like, oh no, I had
so much gas in the tank.

1059
00:32:37,650 --> 00:32:38,970
I'm just looking for
10 more things to do.

1060
00:32:39,300 --> 00:32:39,660
Right?

1061
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:40,400
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1062
00:32:40,500 --> 00:32:41,250
No, yeah.

1063
00:32:41,250 --> 00:32:44,610
I would say, well, even if you
were energetic right before

1064
00:32:44,610 --> 00:32:47,340
that situation occurred, how
many founders do you know that

1065
00:32:47,340 --> 00:32:50,970
get that call from the boards
and they're just like super

1066
00:32:50,970 --> 00:32:51,990
energized after the fact?

1067
00:32:51,990 --> 00:32:52,710
Do you know what happened today?

1068
00:32:52,970 --> 00:32:56,120
Man, finally the board
has decided to fire me.

1069
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:57,650
Now they're gonna call it
something else, but I'm

1070
00:32:57,650 --> 00:32:58,310
actually getting fired.

1071
00:32:58,550 --> 00:32:59,510
I couldn't be happier.

1072
00:32:59,510 --> 00:32:59,840
Right.

1073
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:00,740
I Right, right, right.

1074
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,480
I'm sure there was somebody
out there where that did

1075
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,520
happen once, but it's
definitely not the norm.

1076
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,220
You've also, you've gotta
use a tremendous amount of

1077
00:33:07,220 --> 00:33:09,980
diplomacy, which is hard to do
because you're so emotional.

1078
00:33:10,070 --> 00:33:10,340
Okay.

1079
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:10,610
Yeah.

1080
00:33:10,730 --> 00:33:13,130
So everyone in the company
is gonna know what happened,

1081
00:33:13,130 --> 00:33:13,820
and that's humility.

1082
00:33:14,475 --> 00:33:17,325
So your subordinates are gonna
know that you got fired, right?

1083
00:33:17,325 --> 00:33:17,445
Yeah.

1084
00:33:17,445 --> 00:33:18,735
They're always worried
about you firing them.

1085
00:33:18,735 --> 00:33:19,845
All of a sudden, you
know, you got fired.

1086
00:33:19,845 --> 00:33:21,735
That's, uh, that's very
tough for a lot of people.

1087
00:33:21,735 --> 00:33:22,005
Super.

1088
00:33:22,515 --> 00:33:25,695
So a big part of it too is
you're trying to save face.

1089
00:33:26,025 --> 00:33:28,725
You're going out of your way to
try to make big announcements

1090
00:33:28,725 --> 00:33:31,425
or, you know, like kind of flex
what's left of your authority.

1091
00:33:31,725 --> 00:33:34,185
And the reality is you're,
you're dead man walking.

1092
00:33:34,395 --> 00:33:34,635
Yep.

1093
00:33:34,665 --> 00:33:34,965
Right.

1094
00:33:35,265 --> 00:33:38,745
I actually had the president
of our company, um, who I

1095
00:33:38,745 --> 00:33:42,045
had hired when I walked into
a meeting and she was like,

1096
00:33:42,165 --> 00:33:42,730
will, what are you doing here?

1097
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,360
I'm like, I'm sitting
on the meeting.

1098
00:33:45,660 --> 00:33:47,040
She wasn't trying
to be offensive.

1099
00:33:47,055 --> 00:33:47,790
Yeah, yeah, right.

1100
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,430
She actually meant like,
everyone knows that.

1101
00:33:50,430 --> 00:33:51,330
Like, you're done.

1102
00:33:51,510 --> 00:33:52,139
Whatcha you doing here?

1103
00:33:52,379 --> 00:33:54,270
And I was like, damn,
I didn't get the memo

1104
00:33:54,450 --> 00:33:54,780
right.

1105
00:33:55,025 --> 00:33:56,910
I thought I was needed
here and I'm not.

1106
00:33:57,510 --> 00:33:58,980
And I didn't have to
be told that twice.

1107
00:33:58,980 --> 00:34:00,750
I just went off and had fun.

1108
00:34:00,750 --> 00:34:03,900
But, but I guess what I'm saying
is there is a version where,

1109
00:34:03,930 --> 00:34:07,500
where the, the benefit here,
the silver lining is a respite.

1110
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:09,509
It, it's just like a break man.

1111
00:34:09,570 --> 00:34:10,290
It's like.

1112
00:34:10,980 --> 00:34:11,400
Damn.

1113
00:34:11,490 --> 00:34:13,380
I could use them and
I go on a vacation.

1114
00:34:13,380 --> 00:34:13,530
Who?

1115
00:34:13,530 --> 00:34:14,220
Who'd guest, right?

1116
00:34:14,220 --> 00:34:14,635
Like I can do.

1117
00:34:15,300 --> 00:34:19,260
Maybe a million other things to
just try to like, just recompile

1118
00:34:19,260 --> 00:34:23,130
myself and I just need, uh, I
shouldn't be cool about this.

1119
00:34:23,220 --> 00:34:24,570
Here's the opposite of that.

1120
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,530
The opposite of that is, let me
go totally atomic, let me stir

1121
00:34:28,530 --> 00:34:29,970
up tons of shit with everybody.

1122
00:34:30,060 --> 00:34:33,000
Let me get in legal battles
and HR battles and personnel

1123
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,060
battles and all this other
stuff that is the polar

1124
00:34:36,150 --> 00:34:37,350
opposite of what you wanna do.

1125
00:34:37,409 --> 00:34:37,810
Yeah, yeah.

1126
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:39,570
You win really bad,
unfortunately happens.

1127
00:34:39,570 --> 00:34:40,110
Play that game.

1128
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:41,670
Really, really bad prices.

1129
00:34:41,970 --> 00:34:42,150
Yeah.

1130
00:34:42,179 --> 00:34:42,630
Yeah.

1131
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:44,730
Now look, there is no future.

1132
00:34:45,509 --> 00:34:46,739
And the chief vision officer.

1133
00:34:47,279 --> 00:34:50,130
The chief vision officer is the,
if anybody should be able to see

1134
00:34:50,130 --> 00:34:52,050
that it should be the
chief Vision officer.

1135
00:34:52,139 --> 00:34:52,350
Right.

1136
00:34:52,585 --> 00:34:54,029
Like the irony of that

1137
00:34:54,029 --> 00:34:54,480
fucking, yeah.

1138
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:54,750
Yeah.

1139
00:34:54,750 --> 00:34:55,199
The irony.

1140
00:34:55,500 --> 00:34:57,870
But this move is not
a promotion, right?

1141
00:34:57,870 --> 00:34:58,080
Correct.

1142
00:34:58,110 --> 00:35:00,330
This move is you're
being put to pasture.

1143
00:35:00,330 --> 00:35:00,450
Yeah.

1144
00:35:00,630 --> 00:35:04,950
And if you're not sure of it,
ask yourself, how much control

1145
00:35:04,950 --> 00:35:06,000
do I have at this point?

1146
00:35:06,150 --> 00:35:06,420
Right.

1147
00:35:06,420 --> 00:35:07,950
How much control do
I have at this point?

1148
00:35:08,250 --> 00:35:09,540
How many people report to me?

1149
00:35:09,540 --> 00:35:11,009
That's usually a a, a big sign.

1150
00:35:11,820 --> 00:35:12,180
Yeah, that's a great one.

1151
00:35:12,180 --> 00:35:12,190
Yep.

1152
00:35:12,190 --> 00:35:13,015
And if I leave tomorrow.

1153
00:35:14,085 --> 00:35:16,035
Will anything
change meaningfully?

1154
00:35:16,065 --> 00:35:17,865
Like will this
thing just be fine?

1155
00:35:17,865 --> 00:35:18,075
Right.

1156
00:35:18,945 --> 00:35:19,575
Not for you, for the company.

1157
00:35:19,580 --> 00:35:19,830
Yeah.

1158
00:35:19,905 --> 00:35:20,175
Yeah.

1159
00:35:20,175 --> 00:35:20,625
That's what I'm saying.

1160
00:35:20,625 --> 00:35:20,895
Right.

1161
00:35:21,315 --> 00:35:25,125
So I think for a lot of us,
there's this postpartum.

1162
00:35:25,515 --> 00:35:26,895
That comes with this, right?

1163
00:35:26,895 --> 00:35:29,625
Where we have to just
wrestle and live with

1164
00:35:29,865 --> 00:35:30,585
what just happened.

1165
00:35:30,585 --> 00:35:32,565
And it's hard, super hard.

1166
00:35:32,685 --> 00:35:35,325
There's no version where,
where you're just such a pro

1167
00:35:35,505 --> 00:35:38,325
and you're so divorced from
motion where you're just like,

1168
00:35:38,355 --> 00:35:39,555
oh, I guess that happened.

1169
00:35:39,555 --> 00:35:41,295
I guess I'll just move on
to the next thing, right?

1170
00:35:41,295 --> 00:35:43,335
Like I know who that
person would be.

1171
00:35:43,425 --> 00:35:46,335
It's impossible to see it in
the moment, but I think like

1172
00:35:46,335 --> 00:35:48,735
if we go back to some of the
examples of people that we

1173
00:35:48,735 --> 00:35:52,755
know that this has happened
to, it isn't the worst outcome.

1174
00:35:53,085 --> 00:35:54,885
The worst outcome is that.

1175
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,100
Nothing happened and that
statistically what happened

1176
00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:01,650
to your startup happened,
like most of them don't

1177
00:36:01,650 --> 00:36:02,430
work right like that.

1178
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,820
You just, the company just ends
up failing as a result, and

1179
00:36:06,150 --> 00:36:06,755
you walk away with nothing.

1180
00:36:07,830 --> 00:36:10,140
Like that is one
of the potential.

1181
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,120
Now, of course, like maybe
that isn't what happened,

1182
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:13,500
but let's call it what it is.

1183
00:36:13,500 --> 00:36:16,320
Like if you can play this
right and you can get

1184
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,350
something out of it, is it the
exit you always dreamed of?

1185
00:36:19,470 --> 00:36:19,980
No.

1186
00:36:20,010 --> 00:36:21,720
How often do we get that one?

1187
00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:23,310
Anyways, it's something.

1188
00:36:23,310 --> 00:36:25,410
So I think if you can get to
that point, right, like of

1189
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,300
course the, the feelings might
be what the feelings are.

1190
00:36:27,630 --> 00:36:30,780
If you get to that point where
you're like, look, let's land

1191
00:36:30,780 --> 00:36:32,550
on some severance, right?

1192
00:36:32,550 --> 00:36:33,960
Let's figure out
what that looks like.

1193
00:36:34,485 --> 00:36:38,145
After that, I'm happy to help
If we can lock in scope, budget,

1194
00:36:38,145 --> 00:36:41,205
and a runway for handoff,
I'll enable the handoff.

1195
00:36:41,205 --> 00:36:43,545
But I'm not gonna stick around
for a two CO experiment.

1196
00:36:43,545 --> 00:36:44,145
You don't want that.

1197
00:36:44,145 --> 00:36:44,835
I don't want that.

1198
00:36:44,835 --> 00:36:46,245
Like, let's, let's
make this work.

1199
00:36:46,755 --> 00:36:48,465
It can be a decent
outcome, right?

1200
00:36:48,465 --> 00:36:51,525
To your point, you get some
money, you get some rest, you

1201
00:36:51,674 --> 00:36:54,255
get to shirk and shed a whole
bunch of responsibility that

1202
00:36:54,255 --> 00:36:57,735
has been absolutely nobody but
yours for a long damn time.

1203
00:36:58,290 --> 00:36:58,470
Yep.

1204
00:36:58,470 --> 00:36:59,850
It's not the worst thing
that can happen to you.

1205
00:37:00,060 --> 00:37:01,890
The worst thing that could
happen is that they, they

1206
00:37:01,890 --> 00:37:05,070
show your ass the door and
they publicly humiliate you.

1207
00:37:05,940 --> 00:37:07,350
Like that's the worst
thing that could happen.

1208
00:37:07,380 --> 00:37:07,980
And they sue you.

1209
00:37:08,190 --> 00:37:08,490
Right?

1210
00:37:08,670 --> 00:37:11,940
And, and by the way, you,
you, you could go from a,

1211
00:37:11,940 --> 00:37:15,420
it could have been good
to that outcome a hundred

1212
00:37:15,420 --> 00:37:16,654
percent based on your own.

1213
00:37:17,515 --> 00:37:18,234
That's it, right?

1214
00:37:18,535 --> 00:37:18,714
Yep.

1215
00:37:18,714 --> 00:37:21,325
Like if you go nuclear,
you'll just get nuclear back.

1216
00:37:21,475 --> 00:37:21,654
Yeah.

1217
00:37:21,654 --> 00:37:22,435
And you're like, I don't care.

1218
00:37:22,435 --> 00:37:23,245
I'm fighting for this company.

1219
00:37:23,245 --> 00:37:23,995
I built this company.

1220
00:37:24,294 --> 00:37:24,865
I get it.

1221
00:37:24,865 --> 00:37:25,944
And I'm not saying, saying,
you don't have any option

1222
00:37:25,944 --> 00:37:26,634
at that point because

1223
00:37:26,910 --> 00:37:28,734
you've, you've taken
away the cool, you've

1224
00:37:28,734 --> 00:37:29,814
taken away the cool path.

1225
00:37:29,814 --> 00:37:30,055
Right.

1226
00:37:30,055 --> 00:37:30,984
They're like, well, right.

1227
00:37:30,984 --> 00:37:32,845
If you would've gone quietly, we
could've worked out some stuff.

1228
00:37:32,845 --> 00:37:35,214
But at this point, now it's
actually in their interest,

1229
00:37:35,214 --> 00:37:37,285
they have to make you look like
a giant asshole at that point.

1230
00:37:37,285 --> 00:37:37,345
Yeah.

1231
00:37:37,345 --> 00:37:39,564
So that they can fully justify
getting rid of you and move

1232
00:37:39,564 --> 00:37:40,229
on as quickly as possible.

1233
00:37:40,870 --> 00:37:41,710
Total disaster.

1234
00:37:41,710 --> 00:37:43,930
Best case scenario would
go something like this.

1235
00:37:44,470 --> 00:37:46,750
You get that call late at
night from an investor that

1236
00:37:46,750 --> 00:37:47,920
just wants to have a chat.

1237
00:37:48,279 --> 00:37:51,279
You quickly understand what
they're actually saying.

1238
00:37:51,310 --> 00:37:52,390
'cause again, at which
point they're saying,

1239
00:37:52,390 --> 00:37:53,950
Hey, maybe we should look
for some other options.

1240
00:37:54,100 --> 00:37:56,170
It means that they've already
looked for other options.

1241
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,350
And while they may, it may sound
like an ask, it ain't an ask.

1242
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,350
And by the way, if you wanna
keep a CEO, the last thing

1243
00:38:02,350 --> 00:38:04,180
you would ever say is maybe we
should look at other options.

1244
00:38:04,500 --> 00:38:04,710
Right.

1245
00:38:04,710 --> 00:38:06,899
Like that'd be the last thing
you, you would ever say to them.

1246
00:38:07,379 --> 00:38:08,819
So again, perfect path.

1247
00:38:09,270 --> 00:38:12,149
You catch this quickly, you
see the writing on the wall,

1248
00:38:12,540 --> 00:38:15,180
you go back to the board after
you process your own shit

1249
00:38:15,509 --> 00:38:17,910
and you say, Hey listen, I
wanna be on your side of the

1250
00:38:17,910 --> 00:38:18,990
table through this, right?

1251
00:38:18,990 --> 00:38:21,569
I want to create a
severance for me that is,

1252
00:38:21,629 --> 00:38:22,830
um, that is equitable.

1253
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,325
Um, that's fair, that's
fair to both you and, and

1254
00:38:25,325 --> 00:38:26,910
tam me 'cause I've put
a lot of time into this.

1255
00:38:27,060 --> 00:38:29,009
But I wanna work with you
to Carver path forward

1256
00:38:29,129 --> 00:38:30,240
where I can add value.

1257
00:38:30,435 --> 00:38:32,325
So we can both get the
outcome that we both work

1258
00:38:32,325 --> 00:38:34,395
so hard to achieve, and
I can help support the

1259
00:38:34,395 --> 00:38:36,105
organization, uh, however I can.

1260
00:38:36,315 --> 00:38:38,955
Those are the dream words Yeah.

1261
00:38:38,984 --> 00:38:40,185
That an investor wants to hear.

1262
00:38:40,185 --> 00:38:40,245
Yeah.

1263
00:38:40,335 --> 00:38:43,424
By the way, say them even
if you don't mean them.

1264
00:38:43,634 --> 00:38:43,904
That's

1265
00:38:44,295 --> 00:38:45,674
what I was getting
at before, man.

1266
00:38:45,674 --> 00:38:46,185
It's like.

1267
00:38:46,410 --> 00:38:48,180
Even if this isn't exactly
what I mean, if you feel

1268
00:38:48,180 --> 00:38:49,620
completely different, right.

1269
00:38:49,950 --> 00:38:50,190
You know?

1270
00:38:50,220 --> 00:38:50,490
Right.

1271
00:38:50,490 --> 00:38:54,180
Go fight for a title, fight
for terms, and then figure

1272
00:38:54,180 --> 00:38:55,620
out how you're gonna move
on and build something else.

1273
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:57,870
I always tell my wife that if I
ever told people how I actually

1274
00:38:57,870 --> 00:38:58,920
felt, I'd have no friends.

1275
00:38:59,035 --> 00:39:01,140
I, I always say like,
there's a version of how

1276
00:39:01,140 --> 00:39:03,120
you feel and there's a
version of what you say.

1277
00:39:03,270 --> 00:39:03,390
Right.

1278
00:39:03,390 --> 00:39:05,220
And this isn't about being
disingenuous, it's about

1279
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,710
understanding that the
words that come out of your

1280
00:39:07,710 --> 00:39:08,850
mouth have a consequence.

1281
00:39:08,910 --> 00:39:09,000
Yes.

1282
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:10,500
And just because you
feel them doesn't mean

1283
00:39:10,500 --> 00:39:11,220
you get to say them.

1284
00:39:11,370 --> 00:39:14,070
You, you sanitize it for
everyone's sake, right?

1285
00:39:14,070 --> 00:39:14,880
It's, you're not,
yeah, yeah, yeah.

1286
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:16,560
Just we're not telling
you to just stuff it down.

1287
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,530
We're saying, look, turn some
of that angst into a little

1288
00:39:19,530 --> 00:39:21,300
bit of back pressure and,
and make it into something

1289
00:39:21,300 --> 00:39:22,860
that actually works for you.

1290
00:39:22,950 --> 00:39:23,310
Right?

1291
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,060
Um, but if you just uncage
the lion from minute one, do

1292
00:39:27,060 --> 00:39:27,870
you just get a blood bath?

1293
00:39:28,205 --> 00:39:28,415
That's

1294
00:39:28,415 --> 00:39:28,595
it.

1295
00:39:28,715 --> 00:39:29,135
That's all that's

1296
00:39:29,135 --> 00:39:29,405
gonna happen.

1297
00:39:29,405 --> 00:39:31,715
Most people don't have
that self-awareness

1298
00:39:31,775 --> 00:39:34,085
and or self-control
to be able to do that.

1299
00:39:34,385 --> 00:39:36,005
So that's usually where
our coaching comes in.

1300
00:39:36,005 --> 00:39:37,595
We're like, like, dude,
I know you're, you are

1301
00:39:37,595 --> 00:39:38,795
raging pissed right now.

1302
00:39:38,975 --> 00:39:41,615
If you stay this way, you
are about to engage in the

1303
00:39:41,615 --> 00:39:42,605
worst possible outcome.

1304
00:39:42,605 --> 00:39:43,985
Well, I think that's why
this is such an important

1305
00:39:43,985 --> 00:39:47,525
episode, because I think that
most people win faced with.

1306
00:39:48,625 --> 00:39:49,195
Call.

1307
00:39:49,195 --> 00:39:49,255
Yeah.

1308
00:39:49,675 --> 00:39:50,185
Don't know.

1309
00:39:50,185 --> 00:39:52,165
The rest of what we just
described as even an option.

1310
00:39:52,225 --> 00:39:53,095
They think Correct.

1311
00:39:53,095 --> 00:39:55,555
It's it's fight or
roll over and die.

1312
00:39:55,735 --> 00:39:55,975
Right.

1313
00:39:55,975 --> 00:39:57,955
They don't assume that
there's any middle ground,

1314
00:39:57,955 --> 00:40:02,425
any path forward that doesn't
involve either humiliation

1315
00:40:02,905 --> 00:40:04,735
or some sort of victory.

1316
00:40:04,735 --> 00:40:05,005
Right?

1317
00:40:05,005 --> 00:40:05,095
Yep.

1318
00:40:05,095 --> 00:40:07,525
Where they're like, I
will fight until, right.

1319
00:40:07,555 --> 00:40:07,765
Yeah.

1320
00:40:07,795 --> 00:40:08,335
No, you won't.

1321
00:40:08,845 --> 00:40:09,025
And

1322
00:40:09,025 --> 00:40:09,610
every now and again.

1323
00:40:10,255 --> 00:40:11,275
It comes full circle.

1324
00:40:11,395 --> 00:40:11,634
Yeah.

1325
00:40:11,755 --> 00:40:11,935
Okay.

1326
00:40:11,935 --> 00:40:14,065
Every now and again, it
comes full circle and

1327
00:40:14,275 --> 00:40:16,795
the board realizes that
you were the best person.

1328
00:40:17,035 --> 00:40:18,325
And they call Steve Jobs back.

1329
00:40:18,325 --> 00:40:20,395
They call Howard Schultz back,
they call Jack Dorsey back.

1330
00:40:20,395 --> 00:40:20,665
Right.

1331
00:40:20,815 --> 00:40:22,315
I actually just
saw this last week.

1332
00:40:22,615 --> 00:40:23,035
Shit.

1333
00:40:23,035 --> 00:40:25,795
It, it wasn't Zillow, it was
some company in that space.

1334
00:40:26,215 --> 00:40:28,345
And they just brought the
founders back and they

1335
00:40:28,345 --> 00:40:29,935
said, well, now we're
back in founder mode.

1336
00:40:30,235 --> 00:40:30,565
Right.

1337
00:40:30,625 --> 00:40:32,005
And you know, because
that, that's, uh, cliche

1338
00:40:32,005 --> 00:40:32,785
founder mode reactivate.

1339
00:40:33,384 --> 00:40:33,625
Oh,

1340
00:40:33,625 --> 00:40:33,805
yikes.

1341
00:40:33,835 --> 00:40:34,134
Yeah.

1342
00:40:34,165 --> 00:40:36,145
But, but they brought back
in the founders and like,

1343
00:40:36,145 --> 00:40:37,495
you know, that's supposed
to change some things.

1344
00:40:37,585 --> 00:40:38,995
That's a publicly
traded company, so

1345
00:40:38,995 --> 00:40:39,805
the stakes are higher.

1346
00:40:40,529 --> 00:40:45,330
My point is there could maybe
tiny percent chance be a chance

1347
00:40:45,330 --> 00:40:48,029
that mom and dad get back
together, but it's fairly low.

1348
00:40:48,029 --> 00:40:49,110
So we don't plan for that.

1349
00:40:49,170 --> 00:40:51,570
We're saying it could happen,
but the way it doesn't

1350
00:40:51,570 --> 00:40:54,720
happen is you set fire to
everything on the way out.

1351
00:40:55,049 --> 00:40:57,870
The way it does happen is
you are a good soldier.

1352
00:40:58,170 --> 00:41:00,150
You say, look, not
an ideal outcome.

1353
00:41:00,150 --> 00:41:02,610
I'm gonna maximize my upside
here, but most importantly,

1354
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,220
I'm gonna maintain my
relationships and reputation,

1355
00:41:05,490 --> 00:41:07,410
which by the way, speaks
volumes to all the people

1356
00:41:07,410 --> 00:41:08,490
that work for you as well.

1357
00:41:09,194 --> 00:41:11,024
Hundred percent just being
able say, Hey, uh, I've got

1358
00:41:11,024 --> 00:41:12,734
the humility to be able to
say sometimes, you know,

1359
00:41:12,825 --> 00:41:13,785
I made the wrong move.

1360
00:41:14,115 --> 00:41:16,185
I'm going to just
sit on the board, uh,

1361
00:41:16,185 --> 00:41:16,904
like I normally would.

1362
00:41:17,265 --> 00:41:19,125
And I'm, I'm not gonna
be an a-hole about it.

1363
00:41:19,125 --> 00:41:20,895
Like, every time the CEO
e does something wrong,

1364
00:41:20,895 --> 00:41:22,125
I'm gonna, you know, like
call 'em out about it.

1365
00:41:22,484 --> 00:41:23,685
I'm gonna, I'm basically just.

1366
00:41:24,419 --> 00:41:26,009
The best answers I can get.

1367
00:41:26,460 --> 00:41:28,470
And if it looks like there's
an opportunity in the future

1368
00:41:28,470 --> 00:41:30,660
where, where, uh, folks have
warmed up and they wanna call

1369
00:41:30,660 --> 00:41:34,049
me back in, great, not planning
for it, it could happen,

1370
00:41:34,290 --> 00:41:35,490
uh, but not planning for it.

1371
00:41:35,939 --> 00:41:38,100
I think when we get what
we call the severance with

1372
00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:40,980
a smile, we just kind of
have to call it what it is.

1373
00:41:40,980 --> 00:41:41,790
But here's what I would say.

1374
00:41:42,060 --> 00:41:44,700
If this happens to you or
if you see this coming, take

1375
00:41:44,700 --> 00:41:48,029
the hint early, process it
early, take the leverage early

1376
00:41:48,029 --> 00:41:50,879
while, while things are still
positive, put on that positive

1377
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:52,470
face, but more importantly.

1378
00:41:53,085 --> 00:41:57,885
Take this opportunity to reset,
reevaluate, and takes your next

1379
00:41:57,885 --> 00:42:01,485
shot, because for many founders,
this isn't the end of something.

1380
00:42:01,605 --> 00:42:03,705
It's the start of something
else, and all that

1381
00:42:03,705 --> 00:42:06,375
has to do with how you
deal with it right now.

1382
00:42:07,305 --> 00:42:09,134
Overthinking your startup
because you're going it alone.

1383
00:42:09,555 --> 00:42:12,404
You don't have to, and honestly,
you shouldn't because instead,

1384
00:42:12,465 --> 00:42:15,555
you can learn directly from
peers who've been in your shoes.

1385
00:42:15,615 --> 00:42:17,955
Connect with bootstrap
founders and the advisors

1386
00:42:17,955 --> 00:42:20,384
helping them win in the
startups.com community.

1387
00:42:20,565 --> 00:42:25,185
Check out the startups.com
community@www.startups.com

1388
00:42:25,275 --> 00:42:25,920
to see if it's for you.

1389
00:42:26,445 --> 00:42:27,495
Could be just the
thing you need.

1390
00:42:27,705 --> 00:42:28,695
I hope to see you inside.