WEBVTT 00:00:00.046 --> 00:00:04.356 Matt Abrahams: Focusing on relevance and agency can transform 00:00:04.356 --> 00:00:08.356 your communication and connect your meaning to your audiences. 00:00:08.716 --> 00:00:11.886 My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:11.886 --> 00:00:13.616 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:13.796 --> 00:00:18.676 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:21.902 --> 00:00:23.774 Today I look forward to speaking with Sinéad Bovell. 00:00:24.634 --> 00:00:28.932 Sinéad is a futurist and the founder of WAYE, a tech education company 00:00:28.932 --> 00:00:32.762 that prepares businesses and the next generation of leaders for a future 00:00:32.772 --> 00:00:34.862 shaped by advanced technologies. 00:00:35.732 --> 00:00:39.932 She is an 11-time United Nations speaker and serves as an expert 00:00:39.932 --> 00:00:43.382 advisor to the UN AI Advisory Body. 00:00:43.712 --> 00:00:47.972 Sinéad helps bridge the gap between complex technological advancements 00:00:48.382 --> 00:00:50.831 and everyday understanding. 00:00:51.232 --> 00:00:51.742 Welcome, Sinéad. 00:00:51.742 --> 00:00:55.181 Thank you so much for joining me here in the Theorist Studios in New York City. 00:00:55.182 --> 00:00:56.502 I'm excited for our conversation. 00:00:56.611 --> 00:00:57.742 Sinéad Bovell: Thank you so much for having me. 00:00:57.742 --> 00:00:58.562 It's great to be here. 00:00:58.572 --> 00:00:58.612 Matt Abrahams: Okay. 00:00:58.612 --> 00:00:59.232 Shall we get started? 00:00:59.252 --> 00:00:59.442 Sinéad Bovell: Yes. 00:00:59.592 --> 00:01:00.152 Let's dive in. 00:01:00.162 --> 00:01:00.542 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:01:00.972 --> 00:01:04.891 Uh, you've been called the AI educator for the non-nerds because 00:01:04.891 --> 00:01:08.672 of your ability to take complex information and make it accessible. 00:01:09.102 --> 00:01:09.942 How do you do that? 00:01:09.942 --> 00:01:12.002 Are there certain frameworks that you rely on? 00:01:12.021 --> 00:01:14.821 How do you take complexity and make it accessible to people? 00:01:15.281 --> 00:01:15.901 Sinéad Bovell: Hmm. 00:01:15.931 --> 00:01:20.722 Yeah, and I was actually surprised by, by that, that slogan myself when it came out. 00:01:20.762 --> 00:01:25.842 But I'd say you have to meet people where they are and with information 00:01:25.871 --> 00:01:27.872 that's actually relevant to them. 00:01:28.251 --> 00:01:31.921 So when it comes to technology, 'cause that's something that I communicate about 00:01:31.922 --> 00:01:37.032 a lot, uh, it can seem really overwhelming for people because people inherently 00:01:37.032 --> 00:01:41.862 assume if you don't have the technical skills or the coding skills or whatever 00:01:41.862 --> 00:01:45.392 it is of the technology you're speaking about, you're probably disqualified from 00:01:45.392 --> 00:01:48.051 the conversation, and that's not true. 00:01:48.342 --> 00:01:52.622 So you have to show people perhaps an example of something that would've seemed 00:01:52.642 --> 00:01:57.271 quite radical historically, a technology that they now use today fluently. 00:01:57.682 --> 00:02:01.062 Uh, and then also how is this technology or the thing you're communicating 00:02:01.522 --> 00:02:04.062 culturally relevant to somebody's life? 00:02:04.302 --> 00:02:08.082 When things are too abstract and you don't bring it down, it's hard 00:02:08.082 --> 00:02:09.521 for people to connect with it. 00:02:09.531 --> 00:02:11.552 So I always try to meet people where they are. 00:02:11.852 --> 00:02:14.572 And then I think there's a lot to say about the format. 00:02:14.582 --> 00:02:19.131 So is somebody finding you on a YouTube video or on something that's 00:02:19.142 --> 00:02:24.322 90 seconds or something more formal to try to fit the medium, because that's 00:02:24.322 --> 00:02:27.631 usually where the audience, that's how the audience expects some form of 00:02:27.632 --> 00:02:30.351 communication, uh, or some form of style. 00:02:30.362 --> 00:02:32.312 So I try to be cognizant of those things. 00:02:32.312 --> 00:02:36.853 And then I'd say the final thing, if you're not passionate about the thing 00:02:36.853 --> 00:02:40.134 that you're delivering and you don't genuinely think it's important for 00:02:40.144 --> 00:02:43.724 people to know, or you're not excited about it or concerned about it, that 00:02:43.744 --> 00:02:48.154 also comes through in how you try to get somebody to understand something. 00:02:48.164 --> 00:02:51.424 So if it's not genuine and you are not actually excited about it or don't really 00:02:51.424 --> 00:02:53.453 feel like it's important, that also shows. 00:02:53.603 --> 00:02:56.934 So I, the things that you see me talk about publicly are the 00:02:56.934 --> 00:03:00.194 things that I'm, I genuinely care about, I'm inspired by them, or I 00:03:00.204 --> 00:03:01.594 think that they're important too. 00:03:02.034 --> 00:03:03.534 Matt Abrahams: And your passion certainly comes out. 00:03:03.534 --> 00:03:06.793 I've seen you present a number of times, and you clearly are passionate 00:03:06.844 --> 00:03:08.793 and knowledgeable, which are critical. 00:03:09.074 --> 00:03:10.843 So I heard you talk about several things there. 00:03:10.853 --> 00:03:13.364 One, you have to meet your audience where they are, which means you have 00:03:13.364 --> 00:03:17.904 to understand and appreciate their level of knowledge on the topic. 00:03:18.204 --> 00:03:20.874 You have to try to make it relevant to them. 00:03:20.874 --> 00:03:22.504 They have to be able to see how it works. 00:03:22.744 --> 00:03:25.733 You rely on comparisons and analogies to connect. 00:03:26.103 --> 00:03:29.824 And then you also think, and I think this is really smart, to think about 00:03:29.824 --> 00:03:32.844 the channel through which they're accessing the information and try 00:03:32.844 --> 00:03:34.694 to conform to those expectations. 00:03:34.704 --> 00:03:39.014 So if you're, if you're meeting people on a, a quick Reel or, or YouTube 00:03:39.034 --> 00:03:42.144 Short, you can't go into too much detail, so you have to prioritize. 00:03:42.154 --> 00:03:46.023 So excellent, and that advice, I think, holds true for anybody communicating 00:03:46.023 --> 00:03:47.793 about anything that's complex. 00:03:48.233 --> 00:03:52.174 Uh, you frequently note that soft skills appreciate over time while 00:03:52.244 --> 00:03:54.233 technical skills depreciate. 00:03:54.774 --> 00:04:01.640 As artificial intelligence takes over more of our lives, how can we better 00:04:01.720 --> 00:04:06.570 lean into those soft skills, and how can leaders and managers put an emphasis on 00:04:06.570 --> 00:04:08.040 that for the people that work for them? 00:04:08.650 --> 00:04:09.010 Sinéad Bovell: Yeah. 00:04:09.139 --> 00:04:10.500 And this is a tricky one, right? 00:04:10.500 --> 00:04:14.830 Because we've spent the last 15 years hearing a lot about the more technical 00:04:14.840 --> 00:04:16.180 skills and how important they are. 00:04:16.180 --> 00:04:18.530 And it's not that they're not important, it's just that the 00:04:18.530 --> 00:04:23.650 half-life of the average technical skill is now between 2.5 to 5 years. 00:04:23.990 --> 00:04:26.930 So that just means if you are leaning into technical skills, you're gonna have to 00:04:26.930 --> 00:04:29.350 expect to continue to upgrade and change. 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:32.570 So when we think about the soft skills, and I don't even know if they're soft 00:04:32.570 --> 00:04:37.420 skills, because skills like self-directed learning, adaptability, judgment, these 00:04:37.420 --> 00:04:39.800 can, can be more challenging to learn. 00:04:39.810 --> 00:04:39.840 Matt Abrahams: Right. 00:04:39.850 --> 00:04:40.650 They're quite hard. 00:04:40.660 --> 00:04:42.270 Sinéad Bovell: You have more opportunities to do so. 00:04:42.290 --> 00:04:44.950 You can exercise some of this just at home or in the grocery store. 00:04:45.179 --> 00:04:48.850 But they do appreciate over value because these are the, the skills 00:04:48.850 --> 00:04:51.990 that the tools that we're working alongside can't yet cultivate. 00:04:52.320 --> 00:04:56.970 So when it comes to leaders, first of all, you have to guide by incentives, right? 00:04:56.970 --> 00:04:59.120 So what type of work are you incentivizing? 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:01.680 And this is something I actually do see in organizations. 00:05:01.690 --> 00:05:07.890 So maybe a KPI or an OKR, um, or some sort of benchmark doesn't yet account for the 00:05:07.890 --> 00:05:12.510 fact that you want your employees to, to demonstrate a different type of skill. 00:05:12.950 --> 00:05:16.320 So you suddenly tell them communication's really important here, and there's no 00:05:16.320 --> 00:05:21.059 opportunity for that employee to deliver their presentation in a way that they 00:05:21.060 --> 00:05:24.040 can express themselves in a different format aside from just some sort of 00:05:24.049 --> 00:05:25.430 email or some sort of attachment. 00:05:25.669 --> 00:05:30.480 So you do wanna try to align the incentives with that directive, um, 00:05:30.500 --> 00:05:34.210 if you can also demonstrate it, and then also give people examples to 00:05:34.210 --> 00:05:37.909 show what, why that skill is relevant. 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:41.740 So if we're trying to get people to build judgment skills or build critical 00:05:41.750 --> 00:05:45.800 thinking, where does that matter in their workflow and how they get evaluated? 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:50.480 And again, that comes back to, to the incentive systems because what people 00:05:50.540 --> 00:05:54.700 don't want to feel like they have to do is add more on top of something that 00:05:54.700 --> 00:05:56.400 they're not even getting evaluated on. 00:05:56.896 --> 00:06:00.986 I think inspiring people in that way, uh, giving people examples, those are the 00:06:00.986 --> 00:06:02.746 areas that I think are, are important. 00:06:02.856 --> 00:06:05.686 And then we also just have to start talking more about the value of, 00:06:05.876 --> 00:06:10.746 of these softer skills, uh, or the non-technical skills and how centered 00:06:10.756 --> 00:06:13.416 they are, uh, today and going forward. 00:06:13.756 --> 00:06:14.446 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:06:14.475 --> 00:06:19.266 The, the ability to take these skills that are non-technical and really learn 00:06:19.266 --> 00:06:21.166 them and apply them is really important. 00:06:21.356 --> 00:06:25.856 And again, very astute to make sure that it's all about helping people understand 00:06:26.216 --> 00:06:30.246 the relevance of those skills, giving them opportunities to practice, and incentives. 00:06:30.435 --> 00:06:34.076 It's another thing to support it, encourage it, and I heard you also 00:06:34.076 --> 00:06:35.956 say role model it so people see it. 00:06:36.426 --> 00:06:38.346 And take the time to discuss it. 00:06:38.416 --> 00:06:41.286 You know so many people, especially in the realm of communication, just 00:06:41.286 --> 00:06:43.966 assume that people know how to do it, but we have to take the time 00:06:43.966 --> 00:06:46.526 to acknowledge and reward that too. 00:06:46.556 --> 00:06:50.595 So it's, it's building not just the mandate, but building the 00:06:50.596 --> 00:06:52.166 infrastructure to support it. 00:06:52.166 --> 00:06:54.896 You have had, uh, amazing opportunities to communicate in 00:06:54.896 --> 00:06:56.056 lots of different situations. 00:06:56.056 --> 00:06:58.906 You're up in front of Fortune 500 companies, the UN. 00:06:59.616 --> 00:07:04.236 How do you instill your message around ethical use of technology, the 00:07:04.236 --> 00:07:10.056 importance of AI and foresight, at the same time, avoid people getting really 00:07:10.056 --> 00:07:14.626 nervous, afraid, and, and just hunkering down with the way the status quo is? 00:07:14.996 --> 00:07:20.156 How, how do you encourage people to adapt towards the future without scaring them? 00:07:20.246 --> 00:07:20.716 Sinéad Bovell: Hmm. 00:07:21.525 --> 00:07:25.446 So I'd say there, the blanket approach, because it does, I do 00:07:25.485 --> 00:07:29.246 change depending if I'm in front of a Fortune 500 leader, um, or someone 00:07:29.246 --> 00:07:32.746 who's evaluated on different metrics or has different goals and incentives. 00:07:33.036 --> 00:07:38.005 Um, but I'd say the, the theme behind my, I don't even have a strategy, but I think 00:07:38.006 --> 00:07:44.740 what suits, fits well with me is if you scare people too much, if you disempower 00:07:44.790 --> 00:07:49.580 them, they do unsubscribe from the very activities you need them to lean into. 00:07:50.200 --> 00:07:55.120 So you can only take people so far with showing the fear and the consequences, 00:07:55.409 --> 00:07:58.570 and you have to trust that when you are communicating something that is 00:07:58.570 --> 00:08:03.789 uncomfortable, um, something that is urgent, that people can follow you and 00:08:03.790 --> 00:08:05.790 you don't need to take them off the cliff. 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:09.680 That they can see what the consequence is if we continue to go down, let's 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:13.170 say, the status quo, um, without taking them to a point where it 00:08:13.170 --> 00:08:14.560 feels like there's no return. 00:08:15.170 --> 00:08:19.579 Then you have to show how clear somebody does have agency that is listening. 00:08:19.870 --> 00:08:25.010 And so if I'm in a room, let's say, with world leaders and we're talking about a 00:08:25.010 --> 00:08:29.210 technology that seems like it's moving really quickly and it seems so foreign and 00:08:29.220 --> 00:08:33.799 out of our control and, and unprecedented is a term we hear over and over. 00:08:34.610 --> 00:08:35.959 Have we done this before? 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:40.220 Was there a moment in history that the same people in this room did something 00:08:40.230 --> 00:08:42.150 similar, as radical, as profound? 00:08:42.340 --> 00:08:45.550 And so when you take people to those moments, they can start 00:08:45.550 --> 00:08:47.020 to see the path for themselves. 00:08:47.430 --> 00:08:52.160 Uh, when it comes to a Fortune 500 company, uh, again, and I constantly 00:08:52.160 --> 00:08:53.569 connect back to the incentives. 00:08:53.890 --> 00:08:59.760 If you are being evaluated by, um, the stock market, that matters to you, right? 00:08:59.800 --> 00:09:03.230 And if it's going to show up in your bottom line, that's something that 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:06.780 a, a leader, and, and of course, they also care about fairness and ethics. 00:09:06.860 --> 00:09:11.469 But if you say, you know, you're, you're also perhaps missing 40% of a market 00:09:12.070 --> 00:09:17.069 by not addressing the bias in these algorithms, that's really significant. 00:09:17.069 --> 00:09:20.420 So you can attach the fairness argument in addition, though, this 00:09:20.420 --> 00:09:24.370 is what also matters to you in quarter one, in quarter two, uh, and 00:09:24.370 --> 00:09:25.730 you're leaving this on the table. 00:09:25.910 --> 00:09:28.830 So there's, I think, different approaches depending on who's in that room. 00:09:28.860 --> 00:09:32.239 But I'd say the, the theme is not to disempower people, 00:09:32.340 --> 00:09:33.880 because then you do lose them. 00:09:33.990 --> 00:09:37.920 And that's the, the exact wrong action that you're trying to, 00:09:38.190 --> 00:09:39.340 to inspire people to take. 00:09:39.340 --> 00:09:42.090 Matt Abrahams: And a quick reminder to make sure you're following our show 00:09:42.090 --> 00:09:43.900 in whatever app you're listening to. 00:09:44.319 --> 00:09:46.790 This is the best way to help our show grow and to make sure 00:09:46.790 --> 00:09:48.310 you never miss an episode. 00:09:48.829 --> 00:09:50.500 And now a word from our sponsors. 00:09:50.930 --> 00:09:53.860 Their support helps us bring you this show free of charge. 00:09:54.569 --> 00:09:56.939 Over the course of my career, I've had the privilege of working with 00:09:56.940 --> 00:10:01.400 some truly amazing coaches, and I've also spent years coaching others. 00:10:01.569 --> 00:10:04.990 And I can tell you firsthand, coaching makes a real difference. 00:10:05.290 --> 00:10:08.970 That's why I really appreciate what Strawberry.me is doing. 00:10:09.520 --> 00:10:13.800 Strawberry.me makes coaching more accessible, affordable, and global. 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:17.210 Whether you want to become a stronger communicator, a more confident leader, 00:10:17.390 --> 00:10:20.789 or simply more intentional in your career, having the right coach in your 00:10:20.790 --> 00:10:23.000 corner can make an enormous difference. 00:10:23.300 --> 00:10:29.290 Visit Strawberry.me/smart and take 50% off of your first session, and make 00:10:29.290 --> 00:10:30.980 sure you let them know Matt sent you. 00:10:31.150 --> 00:10:33.040 And now back to our conversation. 00:10:33.500 --> 00:10:38.973 There's a lot there I want to dig into It starts with really appreciating 00:10:38.973 --> 00:10:44.023 that what you're talking about can be perceived as scary and as threatening. 00:10:44.613 --> 00:10:48.064 And once you understand that, then I think many of the techniques you mentioned are 00:10:48.074 --> 00:10:52.683 really important, making sure people have a sense of agency, connecting it to things 00:10:52.693 --> 00:10:57.414 that they might have done in the past when they've been challenged, helping them 00:10:57.473 --> 00:10:59.593 to see the incentives are in alignment. 00:10:59.643 --> 00:11:01.064 All of those make a lot of sense. 00:11:01.253 --> 00:11:06.394 You've built a massive digital platform to educate youth on the future of technology. 00:11:06.843 --> 00:11:10.174 What have you found to be the most effective storytelling techniques 00:11:10.194 --> 00:11:13.673 to reach that generation or, or storytelling techniques in general? 00:11:13.673 --> 00:11:17.013 Sinéad Bovell: I mean, and this would, again, come back to what are the 00:11:17.023 --> 00:11:19.143 things that matter for that audience? 00:11:19.533 --> 00:11:25.973 So storytelling around education, skills, jobs, choices that they would 00:11:25.983 --> 00:11:28.044 be making in their day-to-day life. 00:11:28.164 --> 00:11:32.373 I tend to have that through line between, you know, whether it's Substack or 00:11:32.373 --> 00:11:35.894 whether it's something that I'm doing that's a 90-second video, again, meeting 00:11:35.894 --> 00:11:42.633 that audience where they are, but also showing them the path to the decisions 00:11:42.633 --> 00:11:47.962 that they're gonna make today, connecting the storyline to their future, right? 00:11:47.972 --> 00:11:50.572 'Cause the, the future that we're building today, we're actually 00:11:50.962 --> 00:11:52.482 giving it to that generation. 00:11:52.922 --> 00:11:55.842 So I think showing them that, that this is why this is something that's 00:11:56.292 --> 00:11:58.831 important to you, even though it may feel like you're not in that 00:11:58.832 --> 00:12:02.271 decision-making room, by the time you get there, these are the decisions 00:12:02.271 --> 00:12:05.651 today that you're going to inherit, and this is why you need to pay attention, 00:12:05.651 --> 00:12:07.151 and this is how you can make a change. 00:12:07.512 --> 00:12:12.992 Uh, and then also making things fun and not always overly intellectualized 00:12:12.992 --> 00:12:14.141 just for the sake of it. 00:12:14.352 --> 00:12:15.482 Get to the point as well. 00:12:15.482 --> 00:12:16.512 People have things to do. 00:12:16.521 --> 00:12:20.761 You're also competing with a lot of other pieces of content or, or media 00:12:20.762 --> 00:12:22.781 streams, so respecting people's time. 00:12:22.781 --> 00:12:24.061 And I actually see it as that. 00:12:24.281 --> 00:12:28.531 Not just, uh, to communicating quickly because the, the medium says 90 seconds 00:12:28.531 --> 00:12:33.842 or less, but if someone's gonna stop and listen to you and take that time, respect 00:12:33.842 --> 00:12:35.551 the time that they're giving you, right? 00:12:35.611 --> 00:12:39.351 Communicate the fact clearly, say the important thing, and strip away everything 00:12:39.352 --> 00:12:43.832 else, uh, and, and deliver it in a way that makes sense to the audience that 00:12:43.832 --> 00:12:46.151 you're asking to, to lean in and listen. 00:12:46.541 --> 00:12:49.192 Matt Abrahams: That respect piece I think is really important, especially when 00:12:49.192 --> 00:12:53.961 talking to younger folks who might feel they're left out or not respected in this. 00:12:53.971 --> 00:12:57.781 So taking the time to respect that you're listening, demonstrating or showing them 00:12:57.812 --> 00:13:02.442 how getting involved now will help with their futures, and the decisions being 00:13:02.442 --> 00:13:06.901 made now, to understand those will help you to determine that future that you, 00:13:06.962 --> 00:13:09.051 that you live in and hopefully co-create. 00:13:09.112 --> 00:13:11.551 Sinéad Bovell: I think there can be the temptation to think, "Well, I'm 00:13:11.552 --> 00:13:15.081 speaking to a really young audience. I have to change the tone, and 00:13:15.082 --> 00:13:18.361 they're only gonna understand some things." And that's actually not true. 00:13:18.392 --> 00:13:22.271 Sometimes, you know, they also wanna be spoken to like the rest of the adults in 00:13:22.271 --> 00:13:26.771 the room, 'cause the message is just as serious for them, uh, or they feel like, 00:13:26.771 --> 00:13:30.442 you know, "This matters for me, too, so you don't have to cut off half of the 00:13:30.442 --> 00:13:33.561 important message because you think I'm too young to hear it. If it's important 00:13:33.562 --> 00:13:37.562 for my future, I qualify to listen to it." So sometimes my message is actually 00:13:37.562 --> 00:13:39.302 quite similar and so is the delivery. 00:13:39.641 --> 00:13:40.472 Matt Abrahams: Amen to that. 00:13:40.492 --> 00:13:44.841 We, we, we don't have to talk down to people who are younger or who don't have 00:13:44.842 --> 00:13:46.531 the technical background, et cetera. 00:13:47.562 --> 00:13:48.822 Find ways to connect. 00:13:48.932 --> 00:13:50.312 Find ways to make it relevant. 00:13:51.182 --> 00:13:54.092 We'll be right back to finish our conversation, but first, a quick 00:13:54.092 --> 00:13:55.622 word from one of our sponsors. 00:13:55.702 --> 00:13:58.922 Their support allows us to bring you this show free of charge. 00:14:02.072 --> 00:14:06.142 Think about the last time you walked into a big meeting, presentation, or podcast 00:14:06.152 --> 00:14:10.542 recording and wished your key points could just stay with you without losing 00:14:10.542 --> 00:14:12.602 eye contact or your train of thought. 00:14:13.121 --> 00:14:16.162 That's exactly what Even Realities was built for. 00:14:16.611 --> 00:14:20.842 Even G2 are productivity smart glasses designed to keep 00:14:20.882 --> 00:14:23.042 real-time support right in view. 00:14:23.512 --> 00:14:27.582 With teleprompting conversation support, real-time translation, AI 00:14:27.582 --> 00:14:32.412 assistance, and more, they help you stay on top of work and daily life. 00:14:32.951 --> 00:14:36.571 And unlike most smart glasses, they're designed to look and feel like 00:14:36.601 --> 00:14:41.832 premium eyewear with no camera and a lightweight design you can wear all day. 00:14:42.222 --> 00:14:46.152 To learn more about Even G2, go to evenrealities.com. 00:14:46.451 --> 00:14:52.632 And for our listeners, use promo code THINKFAST at evenrealities.com to get 00:14:52.632 --> 00:14:58.682 10% off Even Ring 1 and/or the Even Clip when you add them to your Even G2 order. 00:14:59.082 --> 00:15:01.312 And now, back to our conversation. 00:15:01.792 --> 00:15:05.102 I want to switch gears and talk a little bit about you and your career. 00:15:05.121 --> 00:15:07.001 Uh, you've made several career leaps. 00:15:07.062 --> 00:15:09.702 Uh, you started in finance and management consulting. 00:15:09.892 --> 00:15:11.772 You did a little modeling in your career. 00:15:12.091 --> 00:15:15.341 What advice do you have to someone who's trying to rebrand 00:15:15.341 --> 00:15:19.502 themselves and communicate the, the new way they are in the world? 00:15:19.912 --> 00:15:23.162 Sinéad Bovell: It really comes down to the fundamentals of business, right? 00:15:24.182 --> 00:15:28.321 The thing that makes you different, that is actually your competitive advantage. 00:15:28.321 --> 00:15:33.902 So sometimes we can feel like when we're changing lanes to what would seem on the 00:15:33.942 --> 00:15:37.782 outside towards a path that seems like it is nothing, it doesn't connect to 00:15:37.782 --> 00:15:41.221 the thing that you're doing, or you're making an con- entirely right turn 00:15:41.282 --> 00:15:42.782 when everybody else is going straight. 00:15:43.002 --> 00:15:46.532 That actually puts you at a unique intersection that nobody else operates on. 00:15:46.611 --> 00:15:48.721 That is a superpower in and of itself. 00:15:49.042 --> 00:15:52.652 Uh, so I think that is one area that I try to tell people it doesn't matter 00:15:52.662 --> 00:15:56.232 how many zigs and zags in your in, in your career you wanna make. 00:15:56.362 --> 00:16:00.112 There's a way to connect those dots that make you unique, and that's 00:16:00.112 --> 00:16:01.872 what also can make you stand out. 00:16:02.232 --> 00:16:07.472 And you also learn a lot about the world and different markets 00:16:08.312 --> 00:16:11.702 based on the different audiences and worlds you interact with. 00:16:11.722 --> 00:16:18.392 It wasn't until I left business and went into fashion that I was inspired 00:16:18.392 --> 00:16:21.622 to talk more about business and more about technology and more about 00:16:21.622 --> 00:16:25.282 strategy because I realized who was being left out of that conversation. 00:16:25.591 --> 00:16:29.362 So sometimes it can surprise you what you discover about yourself and 00:16:29.362 --> 00:16:33.002 your skill set when you step into the unexpected, and that's what I 00:16:33.002 --> 00:16:35.452 have found consistently in my career. 00:16:35.762 --> 00:16:40.982 And, you know, it's, the more I'm in a position that seems like it's, 00:16:40.982 --> 00:16:44.772 it's entirely unrelated to the one before it, the more the previous 00:16:44.772 --> 00:16:48.942 experience, uh, comes into play and the more it becomes a strength. 00:16:49.502 --> 00:16:52.212 Uh, so that's how I've connected some of the dots in my career. 00:16:53.002 --> 00:16:55.732 Matt Abrahams: I really like this notion of step into the unexpected. 00:16:55.792 --> 00:17:00.042 Look for the intersectionality and what that does to make you unique. 00:17:01.550 --> 00:17:03.520 How have you communicated that though? 00:17:03.609 --> 00:17:07.480 I can understand the, the items that you would want to communicate as 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:11.760 a result, but how have you thought through how best to communicate that? 00:17:11.990 --> 00:17:15.329 'Cause many people listening, I think, have had some pivots, 00:17:15.349 --> 00:17:16.970 maybe not as dramatic as yours 00:17:16.970 --> 00:17:23.322 Sinéad Bovell: I mean, I think everybody can relate to being passionate about 00:17:23.322 --> 00:17:28.492 something or super curious about something and making the decision not 00:17:28.502 --> 00:17:31.212 to pursue it, and perhaps regretting it. 00:17:31.882 --> 00:17:37.811 So for me, I chose to take that risk and make the decision 00:17:37.821 --> 00:17:39.092 to step into the unknown. 00:17:39.092 --> 00:17:41.492 And so I think that there's a through line that we've all, or we've all 00:17:41.492 --> 00:17:44.822 been at a point in our life in some way that we faced a trade-off, or we 00:17:44.822 --> 00:17:49.562 faced a decision, uh, and it seemed like one was a lot more foreign and 00:17:49.562 --> 00:17:52.931 one was a lot more unknown, and we all dealt with it in different ways. 00:17:53.272 --> 00:17:56.741 Uh, so for me, I think I communicate, you know, these were my curiosities, 00:17:56.741 --> 00:18:00.192 these were my passions, and I knew I had to follow that line. 00:18:00.192 --> 00:18:03.802 I knew that I had to take that leap, uh, and that was the risk that I was 00:18:03.802 --> 00:18:05.902 comfortable and I was willing to take. 00:18:06.121 --> 00:18:09.501 And I think also, you know, I had equipped myself with a bit 00:18:09.501 --> 00:18:12.891 of a foundation so I could take a leap, uh, and so that's something. 00:18:12.892 --> 00:18:17.252 But, you know, sometimes I'm also, these are the decisions that I made, and as 00:18:17.292 --> 00:18:20.442 Steve Jobs says, you know, the dots only connect when you look back, and 00:18:20.442 --> 00:18:22.332 that's one of those examples, I'd say. 00:18:22.572 --> 00:18:25.882 Matt Abrahams: I like how you immediately connected this to 00:18:25.882 --> 00:18:27.371 something that other people are doing. 00:18:27.381 --> 00:18:30.942 Lots of us, uh, have passions that we, we might regret. 00:18:31.022 --> 00:18:34.612 And, and that's a, that's a great way to start, and it shows that you're 00:18:34.612 --> 00:18:39.002 somebody who's passionate and willing to, to investigate and explore those. 00:18:39.012 --> 00:18:41.002 Sinéad Bovell: And we have varied multied interests, right? 00:18:41.002 --> 00:18:42.852 No one is just one thing. 00:18:43.062 --> 00:18:43.272 Matt Abrahams: Right. 00:18:43.272 --> 00:18:46.032 Sinéad Bovell: We, we're coming out of this industrialized economy 00:18:46.032 --> 00:18:48.912 where it feels like you are your job title, but that's actually not true. 00:18:49.161 --> 00:18:52.672 Most of us have many different interests, uh, and, and varied 00:18:52.672 --> 00:18:56.322 interests at that, that seem unrelated to other people, but not to us. 00:18:56.352 --> 00:18:58.742 We are the through line in those ideas. 00:18:59.121 --> 00:19:00.122 Matt Abrahams: We are the through line. 00:19:00.682 --> 00:19:01.262 I, I like that. 00:19:02.112 --> 00:19:04.842 Before we end, I like to ask three questions. 00:19:04.842 --> 00:19:07.712 One I make up just for you, and the other two I've been asking for a long time. 00:19:07.722 --> 00:19:08.292 Are you up for that? 00:19:08.331 --> 00:19:08.972 Sinéad Bovell: Let's do it. 00:19:09.831 --> 00:19:14.032 Matt Abrahams: I am very impressed with not only your thinking, but the way 00:19:14.032 --> 00:19:15.702 in which you articulate your ideas. 00:19:16.132 --> 00:19:21.372 How did you learn, and how do you continue to learn to communicate effectively? 00:19:21.392 --> 00:19:21.982 What do you do? 00:19:22.772 --> 00:19:24.702 Sinéad Bovell: I am constantly doing it. 00:19:25.062 --> 00:19:29.872 So whether that is making a social media video, and sometimes you are actually 00:19:30.472 --> 00:19:34.112 moving through the knots of, how do I actually say this in 60 seconds? 00:19:34.572 --> 00:19:37.191 And so continuing to try to master that craft. 00:19:37.442 --> 00:19:42.631 I'm on stages quite a bit discussing some of these ideas, uh, communicating 00:19:42.632 --> 00:19:43.962 them passionately with friends. 00:19:43.962 --> 00:19:48.152 And you don't have to be a professional communicator and get paid for it, but 00:19:48.152 --> 00:19:53.412 if there are things that interest you, a news story, geopolitics, sharing those 00:19:53.412 --> 00:19:58.271 ideas with people can start to force you to communicate them in a way that that 00:19:58.272 --> 00:20:01.501 audience, even if it's one person in the coffee shop, is going to understand. 00:20:02.001 --> 00:20:03.252 I'd say that that's one thing. 00:20:03.782 --> 00:20:07.422 Uh, the things I communicate are the things I am genuinely very passionate 00:20:07.422 --> 00:20:09.692 about, so I think that really helps. 00:20:10.464 --> 00:20:12.864 Um, and I, I practice. 00:20:12.864 --> 00:20:16.704 I think that there's, for some people, they can grab a mic and it's very 00:20:16.734 --> 00:20:19.394 ad hoc, and sometimes I do that. 00:20:19.444 --> 00:20:24.014 But I also have no problem with rehearsing something that's really 00:20:24.014 --> 00:20:28.204 important to me and getting it down pat in a way that I feel comfortable with. 00:20:28.504 --> 00:20:32.684 Uh, it doesn't work for everyone, but for me, I like to come prepared, and 00:20:32.684 --> 00:20:33.964 that's something that I tend to do. 00:20:34.454 --> 00:20:38.053 Matt Abrahams: So the preparation, the repetition, the passion is what leads 00:20:38.064 --> 00:20:42.604 you to continue to develop the skills, and that's a good lesson for everybody. 00:20:43.204 --> 00:20:46.873 Question number two: Who is a communicator that you admire, and why? 00:20:47.574 --> 00:20:51.764 Sinéad Bovell: Steve Jobs is someone who I, I re-watch his speeches. 00:20:52.304 --> 00:20:55.194 I re-watch his announcements. 00:20:55.984 --> 00:20:59.103 And I'm, I'm noticing the through line is people who, who 00:20:59.114 --> 00:21:01.814 make very intentional pauses. 00:21:02.213 --> 00:21:05.014 And whether that's planned or whether that's because they 00:21:05.023 --> 00:21:08.064 are genuinely thinking, I think President Obama does it as well. 00:21:08.684 --> 00:21:11.854 Uh, and so those are the types of styles, I don't think I communicate 00:21:11.904 --> 00:21:15.843 anything like either of those two, but they are, they are voices 00:21:15.843 --> 00:21:17.913 that I could listen to on repeat. 00:21:18.343 --> 00:21:21.874 And there's a rhythm, and it feels like there's a call to action even if 00:21:21.874 --> 00:21:25.134 there isn't one in the actual message. 00:21:25.574 --> 00:21:28.584 Uh, the call to action to come back and to listen and to learn and to be inspired. 00:21:28.614 --> 00:21:31.614 So I'd say those are two, two voices that I could put on repeat. 00:21:32.254 --> 00:21:35.533 Matt Abrahams: The intentionality and the presence are what 00:21:35.533 --> 00:21:36.254 I hear you talking about. 00:21:36.454 --> 00:21:40.114 The ability to pause, the ability to make it sound like there's, there's 00:21:40.174 --> 00:21:42.394 action to be done even if there isn't. 00:21:43.694 --> 00:21:45.824 We've, we've heard those names before for, 00:21:46.074 --> 00:21:46.264 Sinéad Bovell: Have you? 00:21:46.264 --> 00:21:47.084 Matt Abrahams: For very similar reasons. 00:21:47.084 --> 00:21:47.754 Yes, absolutely. 00:21:47.954 --> 00:21:49.573 Sinéad Bovell: And can I ask you about the pause? 00:21:49.584 --> 00:21:49.604 Yeah. 00:21:49.604 --> 00:21:51.504 So what is it with the power of the pause? 00:21:51.854 --> 00:21:55.474 Uh, uh, is, is it intentional, or does it seem like it's natural, or should, 00:21:55.494 --> 00:21:57.313 do you encourage people to pause more? 00:21:57.854 --> 00:22:02.484 Matt Abrahams: What we know is when somebody pauses it allows the 00:22:02.484 --> 00:22:07.364 audience to reflect and catch up, so it does a service to the audience. 00:22:07.754 --> 00:22:11.953 It certainly can help a speaker to collect their thoughts and move forward. 00:22:12.534 --> 00:22:17.494 And we know from research in status and power that those who pause 00:22:17.593 --> 00:22:20.754 typically are perceived as having higher status and power as well. 00:22:20.764 --> 00:22:21.274 Sinéad Bovell: Interesting. 00:22:22.054 --> 00:22:24.834 Matt Abrahams: So one of the recommendations, uh, to somebody who's 00:22:24.844 --> 00:22:29.413 wanting to bolster their standing in a group might be to speak more slowly, 00:22:29.764 --> 00:22:34.234 to pause a little longer, because we typically assume somebody in a, in a 00:22:34.234 --> 00:22:37.114 position of power and status, uh, do that. 00:22:37.374 --> 00:22:40.364 The other thing that pausing does is it allows you to regulate your breathing. 00:22:40.884 --> 00:22:44.844 And a lot of the nervous tics that we have, speaking too quickly, having our 00:22:44.844 --> 00:22:49.434 voice change, saying lots of filler words, is a result of breathing too quickly. 00:22:49.443 --> 00:22:54.893 So pausing can be very important, not just for you, but for the audience that you're 00:22:54.894 --> 00:22:56.994 speaking to, but it has to be genuine. 00:22:56.994 --> 00:23:01.344 You can tell somebody who's purposely putting in pauses when they speak. 00:23:01.654 --> 00:23:05.054 So, uh, again, through practice, repetition, getting feedback, 00:23:05.054 --> 00:23:07.464 as you mentioned, uh, you can find what works for you. 00:23:07.924 --> 00:23:11.363 Without pausing, I'd like to ask you, uh, a final question. 00:23:11.933 --> 00:23:16.594 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:23:16.844 --> 00:23:19.834 Sinéad Bovell: The topic has to, has to matter to you or be something 00:23:19.834 --> 00:23:22.154 that you feel called to speak about. 00:23:22.284 --> 00:23:29.963 I'd say the second, what is the take home message that you want people to be 00:23:29.974 --> 00:23:32.493 leaving with if there was just one idea? 00:23:33.233 --> 00:23:38.114 Uh, and sometimes I even say that in my, my talks, if there was one thing that 00:23:38.114 --> 00:23:39.993 you listened, and I announce the thing. 00:23:41.214 --> 00:23:46.144 And I would say the third in effective communication, 00:23:46.884 --> 00:23:49.534 for me, a sense of calmness. 00:23:51.574 --> 00:23:57.724 Uh, people can really feel if you feel uncertain or if you feel somewhat anxious. 00:23:57.724 --> 00:24:02.374 So I try to be as calm as possible, uh, and that's what has worked for me. 00:24:02.374 --> 00:24:07.093 So I'd say being passionate about the topics, the take home message, uh, and 00:24:07.093 --> 00:24:11.154 delivering it with a sense of being comfortable with the things you're saying. 00:24:11.404 --> 00:24:15.674 Not necessarily comfortable in front of people or on live television, but 00:24:15.674 --> 00:24:17.144 with the things that you're delivering. 00:24:17.144 --> 00:24:18.113 I think that that helps. 00:24:19.014 --> 00:24:23.144 Matt Abrahams: Those listening in know I love, uh, acronyms and alliteration. 00:24:23.144 --> 00:24:26.513 And so if you allow me, I'm gonna take the third thing you said 00:24:26.514 --> 00:24:28.434 and, and reframe it a little bit. 00:24:28.454 --> 00:24:31.044 But it's about topic, something you're passionate about. 00:24:31.264 --> 00:24:35.074 It's being clear on the takeaway, and it's finding the tone that fits for you. 00:24:35.154 --> 00:24:36.484 So it's the three T's. 00:24:36.644 --> 00:24:37.804 So thank you for that. 00:24:38.044 --> 00:24:40.534 And thank you for this entire conversation. 00:24:41.423 --> 00:24:45.103 You've opened my mind, and hopefully the mind of those listening in, to 00:24:46.394 --> 00:24:50.484 the power of possibility, but the responsibility we have to think 00:24:50.484 --> 00:24:55.004 about how we bring others along and how we can have a sense of agency. 00:24:55.314 --> 00:24:59.464 And your focus on really helping make things be relevant to people 00:24:59.914 --> 00:25:03.803 and inspiring while being honest and direct are really important. 00:25:04.184 --> 00:25:05.174 So thank you so much for your time. 00:25:05.174 --> 00:25:05.594 Sinéad Bovell: Thank you so much. 00:25:05.624 --> 00:25:07.024 Thanks for the thoughtful questions. 00:25:07.034 --> 00:25:07.794 This has been a pleasure. 00:25:09.164 --> 00:25:11.084 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:25:11.084 --> 00:25:12.924 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:25:13.423 --> 00:25:17.014 To hear more interesting and insightful episodes like this one, be sure to check 00:25:17.014 --> 00:25:22.413 out our back catalog of episodes in your favorite player or at fastersmarter.io. 00:25:23.034 --> 00:25:27.464 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:25:27.824 --> 00:25:29.434 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:25:29.724 --> 00:25:35.114 With special thanks to Theory Studios in New York City and Podium Podcast Company. 00:25:35.494 --> 00:25:38.594 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:25:39.083 --> 00:25:41.644 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:25:41.754 --> 00:25:45.044 Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:25:45.534 --> 00:25:49.774 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:25:49.774 --> 00:25:51.953 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:25:52.524 --> 00:25:56.313 Please consider joining our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community 00:25:56.663 --> 00:25:59.884 at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:26:00.444 --> 00:26:05.224 You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, Matt's AI 00:26:05.274 --> 00:26:07.954 coach, and book club opportunities. 00:26:08.184 --> 00:26:13.653 Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of our Think Fast 00:26:13.893 --> 00:26:14.944 Talk Smart Learning Community