Matt Abrahams: Focusing on relevance and agency can transform
your communication and connect your meaning to your audiences.
My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today I look forward to speaking with Sinéad Bovell.
Sinéad is a futurist and the founder of WAYE, a tech education company
that prepares businesses and the next generation of leaders for a future
shaped by advanced technologies.
She is an 11-time United Nations speaker and serves as an expert
advisor to the UN AI Advisory Body.
Sinéad helps bridge the gap between complex technological advancements
and everyday understanding.
Welcome, Sinéad.
Thank you so much for joining me here in the Theorist Studios in New York City.
I'm excited for our conversation.
Sinéad Bovell: Thank you so much for having me.
It's great to be here.
Matt Abrahams: Okay.
Shall we get started?
Sinéad Bovell: Yes.
Let's dive in.
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.
Uh, you've been called the AI educator for the non-nerds because
of your ability to take complex information and make it accessible.
How do you do that?
Are there certain frameworks that you rely on?
How do you take complexity and make it accessible to people?
Sinéad Bovell: Hmm.
Yeah, and I was actually surprised by, by that, that slogan myself when it came out.
But I'd say you have to meet people where they are and with information
that's actually relevant to them.
So when it comes to technology, 'cause that's something that I communicate about
a lot, uh, it can seem really overwhelming for people because people inherently
assume if you don't have the technical skills or the coding skills or whatever
it is of the technology you're speaking about, you're probably disqualified from
the conversation, and that's not true.
So you have to show people perhaps an example of something that would've seemed
quite radical historically, a technology that they now use today fluently.
Uh, and then also how is this technology or the thing you're communicating
culturally relevant to somebody's life?
When things are too abstract and you don't bring it down, it's hard
for people to connect with it.
So I always try to meet people where they are.
And then I think there's a lot to say about the format.
So is somebody finding you on a YouTube video or on something that's
90 seconds or something more formal to try to fit the medium, because that's
usually where the audience, that's how the audience expects some form of
communication, uh, or some form of style.
So I try to be cognizant of those things.
And then I'd say the final thing, if you're not passionate about the thing
that you're delivering and you don't genuinely think it's important for
people to know, or you're not excited about it or concerned about it, that
also comes through in how you try to get somebody to understand something.
So if it's not genuine and you are not actually excited about it or don't really
feel like it's important, that also shows.
So I, the things that you see me talk about publicly are the
things that I'm, I genuinely care about, I'm inspired by them, or I
think that they're important too.
Matt Abrahams: And your passion certainly comes out.
I've seen you present a number of times, and you clearly are passionate
and knowledgeable, which are critical.
So I heard you talk about several things there.
One, you have to meet your audience where they are, which means you have
to understand and appreciate their level of knowledge on the topic.
You have to try to make it relevant to them.
They have to be able to see how it works.
You rely on comparisons and analogies to connect.
And then you also think, and I think this is really smart, to think about
the channel through which they're accessing the information and try
to conform to those expectations.
So if you're, if you're meeting people on a, a quick Reel or, or YouTube
Short, you can't go into too much detail, so you have to prioritize.
So excellent, and that advice, I think, holds true for anybody communicating
about anything that's complex.
Uh, you frequently note that soft skills appreciate over time while
technical skills depreciate.
As artificial intelligence takes over more of our lives, how can we better
lean into those soft skills, and how can leaders and managers put an emphasis on
that for the people that work for them?
Sinéad Bovell: Yeah.
And this is a tricky one, right?
Because we've spent the last 15 years hearing a lot about the more technical
skills and how important they are.
And it's not that they're not important, it's just that the
half-life of the average technical skill is now between 2.5 to 5 years.
So that just means if you are leaning into technical skills, you're gonna have to
expect to continue to upgrade and change.
So when we think about the soft skills, and I don't even know if they're soft
skills, because skills like self-directed learning, adaptability, judgment, these
can, can be more challenging to learn.
Matt Abrahams: Right.
They're quite hard.
Sinéad Bovell: You have more opportunities to do so.
You can exercise some of this just at home or in the grocery store.
But they do appreciate over value because these are the, the skills
that the tools that we're working alongside can't yet cultivate.
So when it comes to leaders, first of all, you have to guide by incentives, right?
So what type of work are you incentivizing?
And this is something I actually do see in organizations.
So maybe a KPI or an OKR, um, or some sort of benchmark doesn't yet account for the
fact that you want your employees to, to demonstrate a different type of skill.
So you suddenly tell them communication's really important here, and there's no
opportunity for that employee to deliver their presentation in a way that they
can express themselves in a different format aside from just some sort of
email or some sort of attachment.
So you do wanna try to align the incentives with that directive, um,
if you can also demonstrate it, and then also give people examples to
show what, why that skill is relevant.
So if we're trying to get people to build judgment skills or build critical
thinking, where does that matter in their workflow and how they get evaluated?
And again, that comes back to, to the incentive systems because what people
don't want to feel like they have to do is add more on top of something that
they're not even getting evaluated on.
I think inspiring people in that way, uh, giving people examples, those are the
areas that I think are, are important.
And then we also just have to start talking more about the value of,
of these softer skills, uh, or the non-technical skills and how centered
they are, uh, today and going forward.
Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.
The, the ability to take these skills that are non-technical and really learn
them and apply them is really important.
And again, very astute to make sure that it's all about helping people understand
the relevance of those skills, giving them opportunities to practice, and incentives.
It's another thing to support it, encourage it, and I heard you also
say role model it so people see it.
And take the time to discuss it.
You know so many people, especially in the realm of communication, just
assume that people know how to do it, but we have to take the time
to acknowledge and reward that too.
So it's, it's building not just the mandate, but building the
infrastructure to support it.
You have had, uh, amazing opportunities to communicate in
lots of different situations.
You're up in front of Fortune 500 companies, the UN.
How do you instill your message around ethical use of technology, the
importance of AI and foresight, at the same time, avoid people getting really
nervous, afraid, and, and just hunkering down with the way the status quo is?
How, how do you encourage people to adapt towards the future without scaring them?
Sinéad Bovell: Hmm.
So I'd say there, the blanket approach, because it does, I do
change depending if I'm in front of a Fortune 500 leader, um, or someone
who's evaluated on different metrics or has different goals and incentives.
Um, but I'd say the, the theme behind my, I don't even have a strategy, but I think
what suits, fits well with me is if you scare people too much, if you disempower
them, they do unsubscribe from the very activities you need them to lean into.
So you can only take people so far with showing the fear and the consequences,
and you have to trust that when you are communicating something that is
uncomfortable, um, something that is urgent, that people can follow you and
you don't need to take them off the cliff.
That they can see what the consequence is if we continue to go down, let's
say, the status quo, um, without taking them to a point where it
feels like there's no return.
Then you have to show how clear somebody does have agency that is listening.
And so if I'm in a room, let's say, with world leaders and we're talking about a
technology that seems like it's moving really quickly and it seems so foreign and
out of our control and, and unprecedented is a term we hear over and over.
Have we done this before?
Was there a moment in history that the same people in this room did something
similar, as radical, as profound?
And so when you take people to those moments, they can start
to see the path for themselves.
Uh, when it comes to a Fortune 500 company, uh, again, and I constantly
connect back to the incentives.
If you are being evaluated by, um, the stock market, that matters to you, right?
And if it's going to show up in your bottom line, that's something that
a, a leader, and, and of course, they also care about fairness and ethics.
But if you say, you know, you're, you're also perhaps missing 40% of a market
by not addressing the bias in these algorithms, that's really significant.
So you can attach the fairness argument in addition, though, this
is what also matters to you in quarter one, in quarter two, uh, and
you're leaving this on the table.
So there's, I think, different approaches depending on who's in that room.
But I'd say the, the theme is not to disempower people,
because then you do lose them.
And that's the, the exact wrong action that you're trying to,
to inspire people to take.
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And now back to our conversation.
There's a lot there I want to dig into It starts with really appreciating
that what you're talking about can be perceived as scary and as threatening.
And once you understand that, then I think many of the techniques you mentioned are
really important, making sure people have a sense of agency, connecting it to things
that they might have done in the past when they've been challenged, helping them
to see the incentives are in alignment.
All of those make a lot of sense.
You've built a massive digital platform to educate youth on the future of technology.
What have you found to be the most effective storytelling techniques
to reach that generation or, or storytelling techniques in general?
Sinéad Bovell: I mean, and this would, again, come back to what are the
things that matter for that audience?
So storytelling around education, skills, jobs, choices that they would
be making in their day-to-day life.
I tend to have that through line between, you know, whether it's Substack or
whether it's something that I'm doing that's a 90-second video, again, meeting
that audience where they are, but also showing them the path to the decisions
that they're gonna make today, connecting the storyline to their future, right?
'Cause the, the future that we're building today, we're actually
giving it to that generation.
So I think showing them that, that this is why this is something that's
important to you, even though it may feel like you're not in that
decision-making room, by the time you get there, these are the decisions
today that you're going to inherit, and this is why you need to pay attention,
and this is how you can make a change.
Uh, and then also making things fun and not always overly intellectualized
just for the sake of it.
Get to the point as well.
People have things to do.
You're also competing with a lot of other pieces of content or, or media
streams, so respecting people's time.
And I actually see it as that.
Not just, uh, to communicating quickly because the, the medium says 90 seconds
or less, but if someone's gonna stop and listen to you and take that time, respect
the time that they're giving you, right?
Communicate the fact clearly, say the important thing, and strip away everything
else, uh, and, and deliver it in a way that makes sense to the audience that
you're asking to, to lean in and listen.
Matt Abrahams: That respect piece I think is really important, especially when
talking to younger folks who might feel they're left out or not respected in this.
So taking the time to respect that you're listening, demonstrating or showing them
how getting involved now will help with their futures, and the decisions being
made now, to understand those will help you to determine that future that you,
that you live in and hopefully co-create.
Sinéad Bovell: I think there can be the temptation to think, "Well, I'm
speaking to a really young audience. I have to change the tone, and
they're only gonna understand some things." And that's actually not true.
Sometimes, you know, they also wanna be spoken to like the rest of the adults in
the room, 'cause the message is just as serious for them, uh, or they feel like,
you know, "This matters for me, too, so you don't have to cut off half of the
important message because you think I'm too young to hear it. If it's important
for my future, I qualify to listen to it." So sometimes my message is actually
quite similar and so is the delivery.
Matt Abrahams: Amen to that.
We, we, we don't have to talk down to people who are younger or who don't have
the technical background, et cetera.
Find ways to connect.
Find ways to make it relevant.
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And now, back to our conversation.
I want to switch gears and talk a little bit about you and your career.
Uh, you've made several career leaps.
Uh, you started in finance and management consulting.
You did a little modeling in your career.
What advice do you have to someone who's trying to rebrand
themselves and communicate the, the new way they are in the world?
Sinéad Bovell: It really comes down to the fundamentals of business, right?
The thing that makes you different, that is actually your competitive advantage.
So sometimes we can feel like when we're changing lanes to what would seem on the
outside towards a path that seems like it is nothing, it doesn't connect to
the thing that you're doing, or you're making an con- entirely right turn
when everybody else is going straight.
That actually puts you at a unique intersection that nobody else operates on.
That is a superpower in and of itself.
Uh, so I think that is one area that I try to tell people it doesn't matter
how many zigs and zags in your in, in your career you wanna make.
There's a way to connect those dots that make you unique, and that's
what also can make you stand out.
And you also learn a lot about the world and different markets
based on the different audiences and worlds you interact with.
It wasn't until I left business and went into fashion that I was inspired
to talk more about business and more about technology and more about
strategy because I realized who was being left out of that conversation.
So sometimes it can surprise you what you discover about yourself and
your skill set when you step into the unexpected, and that's what I
have found consistently in my career.
And, you know, it's, the more I'm in a position that seems like it's,
it's entirely unrelated to the one before it, the more the previous
experience, uh, comes into play and the more it becomes a strength.
Uh, so that's how I've connected some of the dots in my career.
Matt Abrahams: I really like this notion of step into the unexpected.
Look for the intersectionality and what that does to make you unique.
How have you communicated that though?
I can understand the, the items that you would want to communicate as
a result, but how have you thought through how best to communicate that?
'Cause many people listening, I think, have had some pivots,
maybe not as dramatic as yours
Sinéad Bovell: I mean, I think everybody can relate to being passionate about
something or super curious about something and making the decision not
to pursue it, and perhaps regretting it.
So for me, I chose to take that risk and make the decision
to step into the unknown.
And so I think that there's a through line that we've all, or we've all
been at a point in our life in some way that we faced a trade-off, or we
faced a decision, uh, and it seemed like one was a lot more foreign and
one was a lot more unknown, and we all dealt with it in different ways.
Uh, so for me, I think I communicate, you know, these were my curiosities,
these were my passions, and I knew I had to follow that line.
I knew that I had to take that leap, uh, and that was the risk that I was
comfortable and I was willing to take.
And I think also, you know, I had equipped myself with a bit
of a foundation so I could take a leap, uh, and so that's something.
But, you know, sometimes I'm also, these are the decisions that I made, and as
Steve Jobs says, you know, the dots only connect when you look back, and
that's one of those examples, I'd say.
Matt Abrahams: I like how you immediately connected this to
something that other people are doing.
Lots of us, uh, have passions that we, we might regret.
And, and that's a, that's a great way to start, and it shows that you're
somebody who's passionate and willing to, to investigate and explore those.
Sinéad Bovell: And we have varied multied interests, right?
No one is just one thing.
Matt Abrahams: Right.
Sinéad Bovell: We, we're coming out of this industrialized economy
where it feels like you are your job title, but that's actually not true.
Most of us have many different interests, uh, and, and varied
interests at that, that seem unrelated to other people, but not to us.
We are the through line in those ideas.
Matt Abrahams: We are the through line.
I, I like that.
Before we end, I like to ask three questions.
One I make up just for you, and the other two I've been asking for a long time.
Are you up for that?
Sinéad Bovell: Let's do it.
Matt Abrahams: I am very impressed with not only your thinking, but the way
in which you articulate your ideas.
How did you learn, and how do you continue to learn to communicate effectively?
What do you do?
Sinéad Bovell: I am constantly doing it.
So whether that is making a social media video, and sometimes you are actually
moving through the knots of, how do I actually say this in 60 seconds?
And so continuing to try to master that craft.
I'm on stages quite a bit discussing some of these ideas, uh, communicating
them passionately with friends.
And you don't have to be a professional communicator and get paid for it, but
if there are things that interest you, a news story, geopolitics, sharing those
ideas with people can start to force you to communicate them in a way that that
audience, even if it's one person in the coffee shop, is going to understand.
I'd say that that's one thing.
Uh, the things I communicate are the things I am genuinely very passionate
about, so I think that really helps.
Um, and I, I practice.
I think that there's, for some people, they can grab a mic and it's very
ad hoc, and sometimes I do that.
But I also have no problem with rehearsing something that's really
important to me and getting it down pat in a way that I feel comfortable with.
Uh, it doesn't work for everyone, but for me, I like to come prepared, and
that's something that I tend to do.
Matt Abrahams: So the preparation, the repetition, the passion is what leads
you to continue to develop the skills, and that's a good lesson for everybody.
Question number two: Who is a communicator that you admire, and why?
Sinéad Bovell: Steve Jobs is someone who I, I re-watch his speeches.
I re-watch his announcements.
And I'm, I'm noticing the through line is people who, who
make very intentional pauses.
And whether that's planned or whether that's because they
are genuinely thinking, I think President Obama does it as well.
Uh, and so those are the types of styles, I don't think I communicate
anything like either of those two, but they are, they are voices
that I could listen to on repeat.
And there's a rhythm, and it feels like there's a call to action even if
there isn't one in the actual message.
Uh, the call to action to come back and to listen and to learn and to be inspired.
So I'd say those are two, two voices that I could put on repeat.
Matt Abrahams: The intentionality and the presence are what
I hear you talking about.
The ability to pause, the ability to make it sound like there's, there's
action to be done even if there isn't.
We've, we've heard those names before for,
Sinéad Bovell: Have you?
Matt Abrahams: For very similar reasons.
Yes, absolutely.
Sinéad Bovell: And can I ask you about the pause?
Yeah.
So what is it with the power of the pause?
Uh, uh, is, is it intentional, or does it seem like it's natural, or should,
do you encourage people to pause more?
Matt Abrahams: What we know is when somebody pauses it allows the
audience to reflect and catch up, so it does a service to the audience.
It certainly can help a speaker to collect their thoughts and move forward.
And we know from research in status and power that those who pause
typically are perceived as having higher status and power as well.
Sinéad Bovell: Interesting.
Matt Abrahams: So one of the recommendations, uh, to somebody who's
wanting to bolster their standing in a group might be to speak more slowly,
to pause a little longer, because we typically assume somebody in a, in a
position of power and status, uh, do that.
The other thing that pausing does is it allows you to regulate your breathing.
And a lot of the nervous tics that we have, speaking too quickly, having our
voice change, saying lots of filler words, is a result of breathing too quickly.
So pausing can be very important, not just for you, but for the audience that you're
speaking to, but it has to be genuine.
You can tell somebody who's purposely putting in pauses when they speak.
So, uh, again, through practice, repetition, getting feedback,
as you mentioned, uh, you can find what works for you.
Without pausing, I'd like to ask you, uh, a final question.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
Sinéad Bovell: The topic has to, has to matter to you or be something
that you feel called to speak about.
I'd say the second, what is the take home message that you want people to be
leaving with if there was just one idea?
Uh, and sometimes I even say that in my, my talks, if there was one thing that
you listened, and I announce the thing.
And I would say the third in effective communication,
for me, a sense of calmness.
Uh, people can really feel if you feel uncertain or if you feel somewhat anxious.
So I try to be as calm as possible, uh, and that's what has worked for me.
So I'd say being passionate about the topics, the take home message, uh, and
delivering it with a sense of being comfortable with the things you're saying.
Not necessarily comfortable in front of people or on live television, but
with the things that you're delivering.
I think that that helps.
Matt Abrahams: Those listening in know I love, uh, acronyms and alliteration.
And so if you allow me, I'm gonna take the third thing you said
and, and reframe it a little bit.
But it's about topic, something you're passionate about.
It's being clear on the takeaway, and it's finding the tone that fits for you.
So it's the three T's.
So thank you for that.
And thank you for this entire conversation.
You've opened my mind, and hopefully the mind of those listening in, to
the power of possibility, but the responsibility we have to think
about how we bring others along and how we can have a sense of agency.
And your focus on really helping make things be relevant to people
and inspiring while being honest and direct are really important.
So thank you so much for your time.
Sinéad Bovell: Thank you so much.
Thanks for the thoughtful questions.
This has been a pleasure.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
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