1 00:00:00,152 --> 00:00:02,752 Welcome back to the episode of the Startup Therapy podcast. 2 00:00:02,752 --> 00:00:05,292 This is Ryan Rutan, joined as always by Will Schroeder, 3 00:00:05,292 --> 00:00:08,721 my friend, the founder and CEO of Startups.com. 4 00:00:09,112 --> 00:00:13,292 Will, as founders, do we really retire, or do we just stop 5 00:00:13,302 --> 00:00:16,791 one company long enough to start lying to ourselves about 6 00:00:16,791 --> 00:00:17,991 not starting the next one? 7 00:00:18,322 --> 00:00:21,052 Where the fantasy is that after this exit we'll finally sit 8 00:00:21,052 --> 00:00:24,321 on a beach and relax forever, but what we usually wanted 9 00:00:24,411 --> 00:00:26,471 wasn't retirement, right? 10 00:00:26,471 --> 00:00:27,861 We wanted relief. 11 00:00:28,152 --> 00:00:32,586 So Will, why do founders keep mistaking- I need a 12 00:00:32,646 --> 00:00:35,216 break for I'm done building. 13 00:00:35,366 --> 00:00:37,916 The fundamentals of being a founder is 14 00:00:37,916 --> 00:00:38,766 that you're a builder. 15 00:00:38,796 --> 00:00:39,706 You want- Yeah 16 00:00:39,706 --> 00:00:40,216 to build stuff. 17 00:00:40,216 --> 00:00:41,315 Like that's, that's how you got here. 18 00:00:41,315 --> 00:00:41,676 That's problem solvers, right? 19 00:00:41,676 --> 00:00:42,236 Right, yeah. 20 00:00:42,435 --> 00:00:44,176 It's like saying an, a artist saying, "I wanna 21 00:00:44,176 --> 00:00:45,506 retire from art." Uh-huh. 22 00:00:45,805 --> 00:00:47,156 No, you're still an artist. 23 00:00:47,156 --> 00:00:48,965 Like you still create. 24 00:00:48,976 --> 00:00:49,275 Yes. 25 00:00:49,546 --> 00:00:49,576 Yep. 26 00:00:49,585 --> 00:00:52,155 You wanna retire from the bullshit that comes 27 00:00:52,155 --> 00:00:53,605 with the job, right? 28 00:00:53,616 --> 00:00:53,806 Yeah. 29 00:00:54,056 --> 00:00:56,435 But that doesn't mean you don't like the work, right? 30 00:00:56,435 --> 00:00:57,616 'Cause that, that's very different. 31 00:00:57,946 --> 00:00:59,495 Now, I'll give you a different example. 32 00:00:59,556 --> 00:01:02,376 Like, uh, growing up, my, my dad was a carpenter, and we'd go on 33 00:01:02,376 --> 00:01:05,386 the job site together, and I'll never forget sitting there on 34 00:01:05,386 --> 00:01:07,515 one of the job sites toward the end of the day, and I'm like, 35 00:01:07,515 --> 00:01:10,825 "Dad, isn't this awesome?" Like, I was like, you know, 14, 15. 36 00:01:10,825 --> 00:01:12,765 And I was, "Dad, isn't this awesome? Like, we built 37 00:01:12,776 --> 00:01:15,116 something that's never existed before," and I'm, like, creating 38 00:01:15,116 --> 00:01:15,976 this whole narrative about it. 39 00:01:16,505 --> 00:01:18,215 And my dad looks at me, right? 40 00:01:18,496 --> 00:01:20,695 And he's like, "No, it's not." He's like- 41 00:01:20,805 --> 00:01:21,646 No … "I'm 40 years old. 42 00:01:21,646 --> 00:01:24,415 My back is shot-" Yeah … "my knees are shot." He's like, 43 00:01:24,415 --> 00:01:26,635 "We'll do anything but this," which of course is 44 00:01:26,636 --> 00:01:28,276 the first thing I did as soon as I had an opportunity. 45 00:01:28,636 --> 00:01:31,126 But, like, what he was saying is, like, "This 46 00:01:31,126 --> 00:01:32,625 job is painful," right? 47 00:01:32,625 --> 00:01:32,665 Mm-hmm. 48 00:01:32,665 --> 00:01:34,145 "I don't want to do it." Yeah. 49 00:01:34,365 --> 00:01:35,125 And he's right. 50 00:01:35,386 --> 00:01:36,675 That is a painful job. 51 00:01:36,685 --> 00:01:40,415 You would want to stop doing it as soon as humanly possible. 52 00:01:40,516 --> 00:01:41,835 What makes our pain different? 53 00:01:41,845 --> 00:01:43,636 'Cause I would argue a founder's, uh, y- I m- we 54 00:01:43,636 --> 00:01:45,695 don't end up with bad backs and bad knees most of the time. 55 00:01:45,825 --> 00:01:48,225 We, we can, because we get into all kinds of other nonsense. 56 00:01:48,245 --> 00:01:50,975 But- Mm-hmm … like, what makes our pain different, right? 57 00:01:50,976 --> 00:01:54,115 Like, why is it that we're addicted to the pain? 58 00:01:54,325 --> 00:01:57,645 I would say that the pain isn't any different, it's the why we 59 00:01:57,645 --> 00:01:58,785 were doing it that's different. 60 00:01:58,785 --> 00:01:58,853 Ah. 61 00:01:58,853 --> 00:02:01,435 See, my dad didn't give a shit about being a carpenter, right? 62 00:02:01,435 --> 00:02:01,476 Yeah. 63 00:02:01,476 --> 00:02:03,175 Like, all he cared about was- Means 64 00:02:03,175 --> 00:02:03,645 to an end. 65 00:02:03,805 --> 00:02:04,175 Yeah, yeah. 66 00:02:04,175 --> 00:02:06,335 I, I can swing a hammer, I jump in my van, 67 00:02:06,365 --> 00:02:07,395 somebody pays me, right? 68 00:02:07,395 --> 00:02:09,195 Like, that's pretty much it, right? 69 00:02:09,505 --> 00:02:11,655 But that's not why we do what we do, which is why we 70 00:02:11,656 --> 00:02:13,425 do it for free for so long. 71 00:02:13,446 --> 00:02:13,586 Yeah. 72 00:02:13,635 --> 00:02:13,815 Right? 73 00:02:13,815 --> 00:02:15,535 You know, we do it with, with a expected future 74 00:02:15,535 --> 00:02:16,685 payment that rarely comes. 75 00:02:16,695 --> 00:02:16,925 Yep. 76 00:02:17,195 --> 00:02:18,215 But we do do that. 77 00:02:18,355 --> 00:02:21,355 You hear never of carpenter that's like, "Man, I spent, 78 00:02:21,355 --> 00:02:23,865 like, you know, four, five years working on this house, 79 00:02:23,866 --> 00:02:25,815 and you know, I didn't think I'd ever get paid for it, and 80 00:02:25,815 --> 00:02:27,156 lo and behold, I didn't," right? 81 00:02:27,965 --> 00:02:28,935 "But I loved it so much." Yeah. 82 00:02:28,935 --> 00:02:30,495 "I just care about building so mu-" You 83 00:02:30,495 --> 00:02:31,485 literally never hear that. 84 00:02:31,875 --> 00:02:33,285 We are, we have a calling. 85 00:02:33,515 --> 00:02:35,985 Like, we fundamentally, you know, as, as founders, have a 86 00:02:35,985 --> 00:02:39,816 calling to want to go build, and it is antithetical to 87 00:02:39,816 --> 00:02:43,715 what we're born to do, like, what our DNA is, to say, "I 88 00:02:43,715 --> 00:02:46,455 want to stop doing it," right? 89 00:02:46,456 --> 00:02:46,706 Yeah. 90 00:02:47,025 --> 00:02:49,736 And so when we think about retirement, which is quite 91 00:02:49,775 --> 00:02:51,806 literally the cessation of doing, you know, what 92 00:02:51,806 --> 00:02:54,116 we're used to doing, we think about it like, "Oh my 93 00:02:54,116 --> 00:02:56,985 God, when I get to retire, things are gonna be great." 94 00:02:57,126 --> 00:02:58,406 And I'm like, not really. 95 00:02:59,185 --> 00:02:59,435 No. 96 00:03:00,096 --> 00:03:00,336 Not- 97 00:03:00,346 --> 00:03:02,875 Not unless the world has also run out of problems, right? 98 00:03:02,876 --> 00:03:04,275 Because as you said- Yeah … man, a, a normal 99 00:03:04,275 --> 00:03:06,365 person retires to stop working. 100 00:03:06,645 --> 00:03:06,855 Yeah. 101 00:03:06,855 --> 00:03:08,835 I know what retirement looks like for me. 102 00:03:08,895 --> 00:03:10,675 I can already see it, because it happens in these 103 00:03:10,675 --> 00:03:11,796 little brief moments now. 104 00:03:11,796 --> 00:03:13,016 I didn't have to fully retire. 105 00:03:13,456 --> 00:03:14,985 Today I went downtown. 106 00:03:14,986 --> 00:03:17,655 I had to go to the dentist, and then I met my wife for lunch. 107 00:03:17,815 --> 00:03:18,055 Uh-huh. 108 00:03:18,185 --> 00:03:21,496 And but as I was sitting at the dentist before, 109 00:03:21,605 --> 00:03:23,126 uh, she had gone… We both had appointments. 110 00:03:23,126 --> 00:03:24,295 This is like, this is what you do now as, 111 00:03:24,305 --> 00:03:25,465 as couples of our age. 112 00:03:25,465 --> 00:03:26,355 We go to the dentist together. 113 00:03:26,805 --> 00:03:29,635 So I'm sitting there, and I've got a few minutes to 114 00:03:29,645 --> 00:03:31,495 just, my brain just goes where it wants to go. 115 00:03:31,916 --> 00:03:33,876 And I'm thinking, I'm watching my wife pour a glass of water, 116 00:03:33,876 --> 00:03:35,736 and I'm thinking, "Man, water's gonna be one of those resources 117 00:03:35,736 --> 00:03:38,036 we really have to be careful of in the future." The next 118 00:03:38,036 --> 00:03:40,296 thing that happens is I get an alert on my phone from 119 00:03:40,296 --> 00:03:43,425 Perplexity, and I go, and this is a big part of it, right? 120 00:03:43,456 --> 00:03:46,215 AI is sucking up a ton of water to cool data centers. 121 00:03:46,456 --> 00:03:46,516 Uh-huh. 122 00:03:46,525 --> 00:03:47,456 Where does my brain go next? 123 00:03:47,915 --> 00:03:52,526 "Hmm, I wonder if the thermal exchange between data centers 124 00:03:52,636 --> 00:03:55,685 and water treatment could be combined. Could we start putting 125 00:03:55,685 --> 00:03:58,286 water treatment facilities around data centers- Right 126 00:03:58,286 --> 00:03:59,885 … and not just make the process more efficient, but g-," right? 127 00:04:00,785 --> 00:04:02,305 Th- this is what happens to a founder. 128 00:04:02,305 --> 00:04:02,555 I was left- That's how we're built … I was 129 00:04:02,555 --> 00:04:03,696 left with four minutes. 130 00:04:04,326 --> 00:04:04,995 Four minutes. 131 00:04:05,226 --> 00:04:05,955 This is how we're built. 132 00:04:06,005 --> 00:04:08,196 This is how… And, and, and that's the point of this, right? 133 00:04:08,196 --> 00:04:08,475 So- 134 00:04:08,525 --> 00:04:09,405 That's retirement. 135 00:04:09,595 --> 00:04:12,575 And you know, Ryan, it's, it's funny because as we g- continue 136 00:04:12,575 --> 00:04:14,195 to get not younger, this- 137 00:04:14,275 --> 00:04:14,605 Yes 138 00:04:14,676 --> 00:04:17,426 … conversation starts to become more and more popular, uh- Yeah 139 00:04:17,435 --> 00:04:19,545 both with ourselves, uh, with our peers. 140 00:04:19,885 --> 00:04:20,260 And I- 141 00:04:20,260 --> 00:04:21,525 Now, I might not think I'm getting closer to 142 00:04:21,535 --> 00:04:24,015 retirement, but my hairline might disagree, right? 143 00:04:24,875 --> 00:04:28,106 It's like, it's already, my hair started retiring five years ago. 144 00:04:28,135 --> 00:04:28,456 Yeah. 145 00:04:28,456 --> 00:04:29,255 It's just waiting for me to catch up. 146 00:04:29,345 --> 00:04:30,815 You, you… it's the canary in the coal mine. 147 00:04:31,135 --> 00:04:31,776 I think about it like this. 148 00:04:31,855 --> 00:04:35,635 I think that there, there is a, a very misplaced dream 149 00:04:35,665 --> 00:04:38,256 about what retirement means specifically- Yeah, 100% 150 00:04:38,256 --> 00:04:40,245 … for founders, specifically for founders, right? 151 00:04:40,475 --> 00:04:43,335 And I thought today we could kind of unpack why 152 00:04:43,345 --> 00:04:45,535 that dream is so broken. 153 00:04:45,595 --> 00:04:48,436 And, and by broken, I simply mean that what 154 00:04:48,436 --> 00:04:52,816 we think retirement can or should be is a myth. 155 00:04:53,176 --> 00:04:55,775 It's not that we can't- Yeah … do it, it's that what we think 156 00:04:55,775 --> 00:04:58,395 it'll- We don't … w- we'll be for, it backfires in a huge 157 00:04:58,395 --> 00:05:00,675 way- Yeah … every time, right? 158 00:05:00,676 --> 00:05:01,746 Like, every time. 159 00:05:01,755 --> 00:05:01,775 Yeah. 160 00:05:02,375 --> 00:05:06,810 And I think it starts- I think it starts with the dream. 161 00:05:06,930 --> 00:05:10,650 Ryan, w- when you think about the dream of retirement for a 162 00:05:10,650 --> 00:05:13,240 founder, we're generalizing, how do you envision 163 00:05:13,690 --> 00:05:13,799 it? 164 00:05:13,799 --> 00:05:16,280 I don't anymore, because we've done this podcast, uh, on, 165 00:05:16,310 --> 00:05:18,500 on like what retire- the fact that you and I have both sort 166 00:05:18,500 --> 00:05:19,859 of play tested this, right? 167 00:05:19,859 --> 00:05:21,549 Like- Mm-hmm … we both went and did some of the 168 00:05:21,549 --> 00:05:23,500 things that we thought we'd wanna spend our time doing 169 00:05:23,500 --> 00:05:24,520 if we just had lots of time. 170 00:05:24,819 --> 00:05:27,559 Turns out I didn't wanna do any of those things full-time. 171 00:05:27,569 --> 00:05:27,589 Mm-hmm. 172 00:05:27,809 --> 00:05:29,669 Turned out that the way I was already doing them as my 173 00:05:29,669 --> 00:05:32,400 part-time hobbies was absolutely enough of those things. 174 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:32,770 Yeah, yeah, 175 00:05:32,909 --> 00:05:33,169 yeah. 176 00:05:33,169 --> 00:05:36,029 And so we figured out, like, oh, founders don't retire. 177 00:05:36,429 --> 00:05:40,840 We reload and then we re-tire, meaning a re 178 00:05:40,939 --> 00:05:42,769 dash, hyphen tire, right? 179 00:05:42,769 --> 00:05:42,824 Yeah. 180 00:05:42,824 --> 00:05:43,840 We tire ourselves again. 181 00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:45,179 So we, we get tired- Yeah, yep 182 00:05:45,179 --> 00:05:47,789 so we retire, and then we reload, and then we re-tire. 183 00:05:47,789 --> 00:05:48,590 Like, this is what we do. 184 00:05:48,599 --> 00:05:52,339 Because the, the exit doesn't kill the builder in us. 185 00:05:52,809 --> 00:05:53,019 Right. 186 00:05:53,020 --> 00:05:55,259 It just clears the calendar, and what do you do with 187 00:05:55,259 --> 00:05:56,299 an empty calendar, Will? 188 00:05:56,659 --> 00:05:57,319 Add more stuff. 189 00:05:57,319 --> 00:05:57,919 I fill mine as fast as I can. 190 00:05:57,919 --> 00:05:58,359 Yeah, yeah. 191 00:05:58,359 --> 00:05:58,459 Right? 192 00:05:58,459 --> 00:05:58,999 I don't wanna stop 193 00:05:59,049 --> 00:05:59,219 building. 194 00:05:59,219 --> 00:05:59,969 B- bigger task list. 195 00:06:00,009 --> 00:06:04,279 But Ryan, I, I think that for almost any founder, there's 196 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,139 this dream of retirement, in some cases a fear of retirement. 197 00:06:07,139 --> 00:06:07,194 Sure. 198 00:06:07,194 --> 00:06:08,030 That, that, that would be mine. 199 00:06:08,420 --> 00:06:12,890 And the dream is I can finally do the things that I wanna 200 00:06:12,899 --> 00:06:16,679 do without my startup being in the way or, or, or my 201 00:06:16,679 --> 00:06:18,099 founder job being in the way. 202 00:06:18,589 --> 00:06:18,609 Yeah. 203 00:06:18,619 --> 00:06:21,049 And my argument is, I don't think that's 204 00:06:21,060 --> 00:06:22,269 actually what you mean. 205 00:06:22,990 --> 00:06:23,290 No. 206 00:06:23,290 --> 00:06:27,080 What, what they mean is, I want a version of my future that 207 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,339 doesn't involve the pain that comes with being a founder. 208 00:06:30,539 --> 00:06:30,939 Yes. 209 00:06:31,359 --> 00:06:33,949 The general, like the prototypical retirement, 210 00:06:33,950 --> 00:06:35,434 right, is that we all go to the beach, right? 211 00:06:35,434 --> 00:06:35,747 Yeah, right, right. 212 00:06:35,747 --> 00:06:37,073 Let's just use that for a second 'cause it's, it's a funny- Yeah 213 00:06:37,073 --> 00:06:37,849 … it is a funny metaphor here. 214 00:06:37,849 --> 00:06:42,009 So the beach sounds amazing when you're drowning, right? 215 00:06:42,009 --> 00:06:44,009 When you are just overwhelmed by your business, when 216 00:06:44,009 --> 00:06:45,351 you're drowning, the beach- Oh, I feel like- … is 217 00:06:45,351 --> 00:06:45,716 the best place … you're 218 00:06:45,716 --> 00:06:47,019 in the, in the ocean on the beach. 219 00:06:47,020 --> 00:06:47,740 I was like, I guess. 220 00:06:47,749 --> 00:06:48,189 Yeah, yeah. 221 00:06:48,189 --> 00:06:50,059 You're, you're coming from the ocean to the beach, right? 222 00:06:50,059 --> 00:06:50,079 Yeah, okay. 223 00:06:50,079 --> 00:06:52,049 It sounds amazing, and it is. 224 00:06:52,219 --> 00:06:53,499 The beach is the most amazing thing when 225 00:06:53,499 --> 00:06:54,299 you're actually drowning. 226 00:06:54,659 --> 00:06:57,079 But after you've rolled up on shore for a bit, you've hacked 227 00:06:57,079 --> 00:06:58,939 out the water, and you've, you got a little bit of sunburn, 228 00:06:59,319 --> 00:07:01,140 it gets really boring once you can breathe again, and 229 00:07:01,149 --> 00:07:02,429 that's the problem, right? 230 00:07:02,429 --> 00:07:02,459 Yeah. 231 00:07:02,459 --> 00:07:05,029 Like, it's the overwhelm we're trying to escape, 232 00:07:05,039 --> 00:07:06,439 not the actual work. 233 00:07:06,450 --> 00:07:08,739 It's the way the work is happening that we're- Yeah 234 00:07:08,739 --> 00:07:09,589 … trying to get away from. 235 00:07:09,590 --> 00:07:11,799 And so, yes, I think every founder should have a dream for 236 00:07:11,810 --> 00:07:16,170 what a sustainable and healthy and happy version of running 237 00:07:16,170 --> 00:07:17,219 their company looks like. 238 00:07:17,409 --> 00:07:19,489 To me, that's probably the closest we get to retirement. 239 00:07:19,689 --> 00:07:22,869 But I think that, that dream, if misplaced, if 240 00:07:22,869 --> 00:07:24,719 misunderstood, is a- Yes 241 00:07:24,790 --> 00:07:25,369 huge problem. 242 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,729 I think if we're thinking, "I have to retire," ergo stop 243 00:07:28,729 --> 00:07:31,539 doing what I'm doing, sell my company, whatever, in order 244 00:07:31,540 --> 00:07:34,720 to like kinda get this sense of relief that people usually 245 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,000 get with retirement, I think that's a dangerous proxy. 246 00:07:38,329 --> 00:07:42,169 I think it's a dangerous proxy, number one, because it implies 247 00:07:42,180 --> 00:07:45,902 that you're gonna stop doing What you were meant to do. 248 00:07:45,912 --> 00:07:45,932 Yeah. 249 00:07:46,262 --> 00:07:47,912 Now, now let me, let, let me zoom out a little bit, 'cause 250 00:07:47,912 --> 00:07:50,262 I, I wanna make sure that this doesn't get misunderstood. 251 00:07:50,682 --> 00:07:53,111 If you're working 60 hours a week and banging your head 252 00:07:53,112 --> 00:07:55,142 against the wall, and you're worried about payroll and 253 00:07:55,142 --> 00:07:58,671 everything else like that, no sane person would say 254 00:07:58,892 --> 00:07:59,931 you should do that forever. 255 00:08:00,031 --> 00:08:01,041 This is not what we're saying. 256 00:08:01,302 --> 00:08:01,352 Correct. 257 00:08:01,352 --> 00:08:01,611 Right? 258 00:08:01,832 --> 00:08:05,571 What we're saying is the thing inside you, of all 259 00:08:05,581 --> 00:08:10,451 of us, that wants to build should never be contained. 260 00:08:10,851 --> 00:08:12,322 Should never- Correct … be contained. 261 00:08:12,691 --> 00:08:15,621 And I think that's where we think of retirement as this 262 00:08:15,622 --> 00:08:19,742 idea of putting to pasture what it is about us, and 263 00:08:19,742 --> 00:08:23,462 I don't think putting that creativity, that productivity, 264 00:08:23,462 --> 00:08:25,741 that brain that wonders how you're, h- how you're 265 00:08:25,741 --> 00:08:29,071 gonna cool off data centers, should ever be put to rest. 266 00:08:29,302 --> 00:08:32,201 If anything- Yeah … I think it should be cultivated for 267 00:08:32,201 --> 00:08:33,951 as long as it possibly can. 268 00:08:34,271 --> 00:08:34,951 Stay in motion. 269 00:08:34,962 --> 00:08:36,641 I mean, it's… That was one of my, my grandmother, 270 00:08:36,642 --> 00:08:39,261 who's now 101 years old, that was her advice. 271 00:08:39,302 --> 00:08:42,951 Like, find something that, that you can do, that makes 272 00:08:42,951 --> 00:08:46,541 you happy, that you can keep doing for as long as possible, 273 00:08:46,541 --> 00:08:49,062 and just never stop doing that thing, and that's the secret 274 00:08:49,081 --> 00:08:50,091 to a long and happy life. 275 00:08:50,091 --> 00:08:52,542 And like, gonna have to kind of trust her on this one, 276 00:08:52,542 --> 00:08:55,392 'cause she's, she's, she's got the math to prove it, right? 277 00:08:55,701 --> 00:08:58,212 Just for fun, I pulled up our retirement plans, and 278 00:08:58,212 --> 00:09:00,722 it turns out each and every one of them, b- uh, uh, of 279 00:09:00,722 --> 00:09:02,962 our retirement plans, Will, has a 90-day vesting cliff 280 00:09:02,991 --> 00:09:04,231 before the next idea shows up. 281 00:09:04,911 --> 00:09:06,722 That's pretty tri- Actually, let's stick with that for a 282 00:09:06,722 --> 00:09:10,621 second, because for a lot of founders, they get a version 283 00:09:10,621 --> 00:09:11,821 of retirement on an exit. 284 00:09:11,851 --> 00:09:12,101 Yeah. 285 00:09:12,421 --> 00:09:14,832 And it goes the same way every single time. 286 00:09:14,841 --> 00:09:14,871 Yep. 287 00:09:14,881 --> 00:09:16,721 Every time they're, they're like, "Oh my God, I'm 288 00:09:16,721 --> 00:09:18,622 so excited. I, you know, I can finally relax," 289 00:09:18,622 --> 00:09:20,371 and, and that is true. 290 00:09:20,381 --> 00:09:20,401 Yeah. 291 00:09:20,781 --> 00:09:23,662 You had a ton of crazy shit going on five minutes ago. 292 00:09:24,101 --> 00:09:26,502 You don't have that stuff going on right now. 293 00:09:26,932 --> 00:09:26,962 Yep. 294 00:09:27,081 --> 00:09:29,631 And you have cessation of that pain. 295 00:09:30,072 --> 00:09:30,482 Awesome. 296 00:09:30,482 --> 00:09:30,591 Yes. 297 00:09:30,612 --> 00:09:31,791 You deserve it, and I'm so glad you have it. 298 00:09:32,942 --> 00:09:33,682 But then what? 299 00:09:33,842 --> 00:09:35,992 The first month is margaritas, the second 300 00:09:36,022 --> 00:09:37,222 month is domain names. 301 00:09:37,312 --> 00:09:37,582 Yeah. 302 00:09:38,502 --> 00:09:39,322 We know where it goes. 303 00:09:39,992 --> 00:09:40,252 We know where it goes. 304 00:09:40,252 --> 00:09:42,592 And it's like y- you get into this thing where, again, 305 00:09:42,592 --> 00:09:45,661 founders who have the exit have the opportunity to see 306 00:09:45,661 --> 00:09:49,012 what it's like to not put their trade in, in play. 307 00:09:49,522 --> 00:09:52,981 And I think you find out real, real quickly it sucks. 308 00:09:52,991 --> 00:09:53,011 Yeah. 309 00:09:53,571 --> 00:09:58,071 It sucks having this incredible skill and not be able to use it. 310 00:09:58,071 --> 00:10:01,501 Let me tell you where I've seen this most painfully 311 00:10:01,702 --> 00:10:02,792 and most consistently. 312 00:10:02,942 --> 00:10:04,542 With athletes, right? 313 00:10:05,001 --> 00:10:08,771 Nothing sucks more than an athlete who can't 314 00:10:08,782 --> 00:10:10,231 be on the field again. 315 00:10:10,762 --> 00:10:11,061 Mm-hmm. 316 00:10:11,061 --> 00:10:11,201 Right? 317 00:10:11,381 --> 00:10:13,891 An athlete, like, like you and I have some friends in common, 318 00:10:13,891 --> 00:10:14,411 some, uh, coming out of the- Yep 319 00:10:14,462 --> 00:10:15,711 NBA, et cetera. 320 00:10:16,221 --> 00:10:16,621 Yep. 321 00:10:16,811 --> 00:10:22,835 And their issue is they stood in a stadium, right, of 20, 30, 322 00:10:22,835 --> 00:10:26,341 50,000 screaming fans, right? 323 00:10:26,341 --> 00:10:26,571 Yeah. 324 00:10:27,012 --> 00:10:30,041 They hit the three, the place went nuts, okay? 325 00:10:30,201 --> 00:10:31,071 Hit a lot of threes. 326 00:10:31,172 --> 00:10:31,941 Right, yeah, exactly. 327 00:10:31,942 --> 00:10:32,072 We're talking about 328 00:10:32,072 --> 00:10:32,418 the same 329 00:10:32,418 --> 00:10:32,591 person. 330 00:10:32,591 --> 00:10:33,021 Yeah, we are. 331 00:10:33,071 --> 00:10:36,101 Uh, a- and, and then they turn 34, right? 332 00:10:36,301 --> 00:10:36,421 Yeah. 333 00:10:36,922 --> 00:10:37,412 Imagine. 334 00:10:38,092 --> 00:10:39,282 I, I, no, that's my point. 335 00:10:39,291 --> 00:10:39,691 Ray Allen's 336 00:10:39,692 --> 00:10:40,281 34, right? 337 00:10:40,631 --> 00:10:42,402 The reason I'm bringing up athletes is twofold. 338 00:10:42,412 --> 00:10:42,432 Yeah. 339 00:10:42,681 --> 00:10:46,618 One, because their cliff is so early in life, which you 340 00:10:46,618 --> 00:10:49,291 s- Yep … the back half of, of that is, is very difficult. 341 00:10:49,291 --> 00:10:50,842 And it's such a specific calling, right? 342 00:10:50,891 --> 00:10:51,321 And it's- 343 00:10:51,331 --> 00:10:51,611 Correct. 344 00:10:51,611 --> 00:10:51,641 Yeah. 345 00:10:51,641 --> 00:10:53,042 And you can't replicate it, right? 346 00:10:53,101 --> 00:10:55,401 I mean, like- Correct … you can Tom Brady it into your s- 347 00:10:55,461 --> 00:10:57,151 senior years, but even- Yeah 348 00:10:57,201 --> 00:10:59,621 then you can only take it so far, right? 349 00:11:00,181 --> 00:11:01,251 I say this because- 350 00:11:01,262 --> 00:11:02,331 Unless you're Jack Nicklaus. 351 00:11:02,351 --> 00:11:03,021 Apparently that guy can 352 00:11:03,021 --> 00:11:03,552 play golf 353 00:11:03,552 --> 00:11:03,972 forever. 354 00:11:04,131 --> 00:11:04,772 Or Hulk Hogan. 355 00:11:04,772 --> 00:11:05,091 Or Hulk Hogan, who can- Yeah. 356 00:11:05,141 --> 00:11:05,722 Uh, yeah, yeah. 357 00:11:05,942 --> 00:11:07,342 Who came back 6,000 times. 358 00:11:07,491 --> 00:11:09,742 But, but I, I guess what I'm saying is for these 359 00:11:09,751 --> 00:11:13,252 folks they don't have the ability to go back to doing 360 00:11:13,252 --> 00:11:14,352 what they were doing, right? 361 00:11:14,352 --> 00:11:16,462 You know, they go on to become ESPN commentator or something 362 00:11:16,462 --> 00:11:17,811 like that- Yep … which is like a fraction of what 363 00:11:17,811 --> 00:11:18,651 they were doing before. 364 00:11:18,942 --> 00:11:22,131 But for founders, we can Warren Buffett that shit. 365 00:11:22,171 --> 00:11:23,011 We can do it forever. 366 00:11:23,221 --> 00:11:23,542 We can go. 367 00:11:23,552 --> 00:11:24,002 We can go forever. 368 00:11:24,002 --> 00:11:24,301 Right? 369 00:11:24,391 --> 00:11:27,492 I just talked to a founder, a friend of mine who's now 370 00:11:27,741 --> 00:11:31,791 64, and he's like, he had put on his LinkedIn retired. 371 00:11:31,841 --> 00:11:35,321 And I reached out and I said, "Stealth mode?" And 372 00:11:35,372 --> 00:11:40,006 his response was, "Fuck, you caught me." It's like, you're 373 00:11:40,006 --> 00:11:40,961 like, "Ah, you're not retired. 374 00:11:40,962 --> 00:11:41,741 Like, what are you talking about?" 375 00:11:41,921 --> 00:11:42,161 Yep. 376 00:11:42,201 --> 00:11:43,971 Uh, so but this is the way it goes. 377 00:11:44,061 --> 00:11:44,501 It is. 378 00:11:44,501 --> 00:11:46,581 And, and so when we talk about, when we talk to, 379 00:11:46,632 --> 00:11:49,681 to founders who said, "H- hey, I'm gonna retire," we 380 00:11:49,802 --> 00:11:50,992 always say the same thing. 381 00:11:51,651 --> 00:11:54,228 "Let me know when you're done." Let me know when you're done. 382 00:11:54,238 --> 00:11:54,257 Yeah. 383 00:11:54,348 --> 00:11:54,668 Right? 384 00:11:54,828 --> 00:11:54,958 Yeah. 385 00:11:55,018 --> 00:11:55,938 Because you'll always be done. 386 00:11:55,938 --> 00:11:55,988 Let me know when you 387 00:11:55,988 --> 00:11:56,877 untire. 388 00:11:57,257 --> 00:11:57,428 Yeah. 389 00:11:57,428 --> 00:11:58,558 Yeah. 390 00:11:58,558 --> 00:12:00,247 And so, like, it's like this for me. 391 00:12:00,818 --> 00:12:03,817 Every single time I go on a vacation, an actual vacation, 392 00:12:03,837 --> 00:12:07,107 and Ryan, as you know, I suck at vacations, so much so that 393 00:12:07,108 --> 00:12:08,757 my family now leaves me behind. 394 00:12:09,068 --> 00:12:11,687 They're just like, "You're so bad at this, we don't even 395 00:12:11,688 --> 00:12:12,478 want you to go anymore." We 396 00:12:12,828 --> 00:12:13,747 don't even… Yeah. 397 00:12:13,987 --> 00:12:16,787 They're awesome, but they just know that the entire 398 00:12:16,788 --> 00:12:18,037 time my head is elsewhere. 399 00:12:18,247 --> 00:12:18,617 It shouldn't be. 400 00:12:18,807 --> 00:12:18,827 Yeah. 401 00:12:19,087 --> 00:12:19,527 But it is. 402 00:12:19,608 --> 00:12:20,018 Yeah. 403 00:12:20,358 --> 00:12:21,917 And so here's what happens. 404 00:12:22,028 --> 00:12:24,277 Every single time I try to s- set up a vacation, 405 00:12:24,657 --> 00:12:25,818 I have the same game plan. 406 00:12:26,007 --> 00:12:26,747 This is kinda funny. 407 00:12:27,007 --> 00:12:30,447 I'm gonna overwhelm myself with things to do, right? 408 00:12:30,718 --> 00:12:30,867 Uh-huh. 409 00:12:30,887 --> 00:12:32,247 Right, right there you can already tell it's going 410 00:12:32,247 --> 00:12:33,017 the wrong direction, right? 411 00:12:33,238 --> 00:12:37,297 I'm gonna overwhelm myself with tasks of things I have to do 412 00:12:37,518 --> 00:12:41,527 that don't involve my job- Yeah … in order to, like, force myself 413 00:12:41,527 --> 00:12:42,897 to be having fun, I guess. 414 00:12:42,928 --> 00:12:45,578 It has to feel like there's some other meaningful outcome from 415 00:12:45,578 --> 00:12:48,408 what you're doing, otherwise you can't just go and do nothing. 416 00:12:48,437 --> 00:12:48,657 Yeah. 417 00:12:48,707 --> 00:12:52,097 If I'm not checking a box, I'm really uncomfortable, right? 418 00:12:52,108 --> 00:12:52,127 Yeah. 419 00:12:52,297 --> 00:12:54,617 So I have to have read a book, or I have to have listened to 420 00:12:54,617 --> 00:12:56,818 a podcast, or I have to have, like, done something, right? 421 00:12:57,167 --> 00:12:57,187 Yeah. 422 00:12:57,287 --> 00:13:00,537 I always have checklists going into my vacations. 423 00:13:01,137 --> 00:13:01,157 Yeah. 424 00:13:01,177 --> 00:13:03,617 My checklists never get checked off. 425 00:13:03,627 --> 00:13:07,517 Whatever I said I was going to do, I never ever, ever, ever 426 00:13:07,518 --> 00:13:11,598 do it, because after I get to maybe the second item, it's 427 00:13:11,598 --> 00:13:12,788 the same routine every time. 428 00:13:12,948 --> 00:13:14,888 I'm like, the more interesting thing was the thing that 429 00:13:14,888 --> 00:13:15,977 I, that I left behind. 430 00:13:15,988 --> 00:13:16,298 Yeah. 431 00:13:16,298 --> 00:13:17,207 It was… Yeah. 432 00:13:17,317 --> 00:13:17,647 Right? 433 00:13:17,707 --> 00:13:20,687 And so the last time, uh, we got a place that we stay at in 434 00:13:20,687 --> 00:13:26,204 Florida, and the last time I was there, by the second day- I had 435 00:13:26,314 --> 00:13:30,124 come up with some reason that I had to figure something out. 436 00:13:30,574 --> 00:13:32,764 My in-laws, you know, had, had like their condo 437 00:13:32,784 --> 00:13:35,843 in, uh, uh, in Florida, and we leave stuff there. 438 00:13:35,844 --> 00:13:37,734 Like, the kids leave, like, toys and stuff they- Sure 439 00:13:37,744 --> 00:13:37,973 wanna use. 440 00:13:37,984 --> 00:13:38,024 Yep. 441 00:13:38,064 --> 00:13:39,594 My wife leaves changes of clothes and everything. 442 00:13:39,604 --> 00:13:40,803 Do you know what I leave there? 443 00:13:40,923 --> 00:13:43,784 One thing, a 34-inch external monitor. 444 00:13:44,054 --> 00:13:44,984 That's the only- Yeah, yeah … thing that, 445 00:13:44,993 --> 00:13:45,784 that, that I leave there. 446 00:13:45,794 --> 00:13:45,824 Right? 447 00:13:45,973 --> 00:13:48,634 I have the exact same setup at my in-laws in Florida 448 00:13:48,634 --> 00:13:49,873 with a gas pump arm. 449 00:13:49,874 --> 00:13:50,943 Like, I've got the whole, like… 450 00:13:50,954 --> 00:13:51,953 You know, you've seen me do this. 451 00:13:51,953 --> 00:13:51,993 Yep. 452 00:13:51,993 --> 00:13:53,924 I have a second podcast set up down there. 453 00:13:53,924 --> 00:13:56,164 Like- Yep … I've got, I have my studio stuffed 454 00:13:56,164 --> 00:13:57,853 in the top of a closet down there for when we go. 455 00:13:57,954 --> 00:14:00,234 And this is by no means a recommendation or 456 00:14:00,234 --> 00:14:01,704 endorsement to do any of this. 457 00:14:01,704 --> 00:14:04,183 If you can go on a vacation, enjoy a vacation, by all 458 00:14:04,184 --> 00:14:05,394 means, enjoy a vacation, right? 459 00:14:05,623 --> 00:14:08,513 So, and, and this isn't me saying, "Yay, me. Look how good 460 00:14:08,513 --> 00:14:12,814 a…" It's me coming to the realization after a while that 461 00:14:12,853 --> 00:14:17,663 the thing I love, the thing I absolutely love, is creating. 462 00:14:17,983 --> 00:14:19,234 I love to create. 463 00:14:19,253 --> 00:14:21,373 Like, to me- Yeah … a vacation would be me 464 00:14:21,373 --> 00:14:23,563 creating nonstop, right? 465 00:14:23,563 --> 00:14:23,873 Yeah. 466 00:14:23,943 --> 00:14:28,793 So the idea of not doing that, of saying, "No, you're gonna sit 467 00:14:28,794 --> 00:14:32,493 by the beach and stare at the ocean and sip a margarita," is- 468 00:14:32,523 --> 00:14:32,763 Yeah 469 00:14:33,073 --> 00:14:34,103 torture, right? 470 00:14:34,154 --> 00:14:34,744 Like, that is- 471 00:14:34,744 --> 00:14:35,383 Send me to the beach 472 00:14:35,434 --> 00:14:35,704 … worst 473 00:14:35,704 --> 00:14:35,823 possible outcome. 474 00:14:36,184 --> 00:14:37,234 I have- I'm, I'm out in the water. 475 00:14:37,264 --> 00:14:39,543 I'm like, "What kind of animals can I catch? What can I dig 476 00:14:39,543 --> 00:14:42,044 up at the bottom? How big of a sandcastle can we make?" Like, 477 00:14:42,053 --> 00:14:42,983 something has to be happening. 478 00:14:42,983 --> 00:14:43,703 Tell me, man. 479 00:14:43,703 --> 00:14:45,673 You brought up something funny, which is it's like, you 480 00:14:45,673 --> 00:14:46,644 know, you need the checklist. 481 00:14:46,644 --> 00:14:47,733 You gotta feel like you're doing something. 482 00:14:48,163 --> 00:14:49,943 I have realized that I've even started, 'cause 483 00:14:49,944 --> 00:14:51,613 like you want there to be a meaningful outcome. 484 00:14:51,993 --> 00:14:52,383 Mm-hmm. 485 00:14:52,383 --> 00:14:54,843 Over the last couple weeks, sometimes I stack 486 00:14:54,843 --> 00:14:55,873 these things, right? 487 00:14:55,873 --> 00:14:58,203 So, like, because certain things are meaningful for 488 00:14:58,203 --> 00:14:58,893 different reasons, right? 489 00:14:58,893 --> 00:15:00,944 So, like, I've, I've been, I've been doing a lot of running in 490 00:15:00,944 --> 00:15:03,803 the mornings lately, and that's great, and that has an outcome. 491 00:15:04,044 --> 00:15:04,314 Yeah. 492 00:15:04,334 --> 00:15:05,513 But that wasn't enough for me. 493 00:15:05,514 --> 00:15:06,863 So what have I started doing? 494 00:15:07,413 --> 00:15:10,613 I have my, uh, Fireflies app that I turn on. 495 00:15:10,614 --> 00:15:13,344 I've got my headphones on, and while I'm running 496 00:15:13,603 --> 00:15:15,164 I- ideating blog posts. 497 00:15:15,164 --> 00:15:16,593 I'm thinking about marketing funnels. 498 00:15:16,603 --> 00:15:17,823 I'm, I'm talking. 499 00:15:17,834 --> 00:15:19,423 I'm basically brainstorming while I'm running. 500 00:15:19,783 --> 00:15:21,894 And to make it even more pathological, now I've started 501 00:15:21,894 --> 00:15:24,364 conducting founder calls, and I'm doing, like, one-on-ones 502 00:15:24,364 --> 00:15:25,983 with people while I'm running. 503 00:15:25,983 --> 00:15:27,973 So I'm giving advice while, like, panting- Right? 504 00:15:27,974 --> 00:15:29,353 … into their ears the entire time as well. 505 00:15:29,353 --> 00:15:30,243 It's fantastic, right? 506 00:15:30,243 --> 00:15:30,523 Wow. 507 00:15:30,523 --> 00:15:32,021 I would like that so much. 508 00:15:32,021 --> 00:15:32,583 Because why not check two boxes if I can? 509 00:15:32,603 --> 00:15:33,663 It's pathological. 510 00:15:35,323 --> 00:15:36,033 Here's what I would say, though. 511 00:15:36,750 --> 00:15:39,150 It's because there's no substitute for 512 00:15:39,150 --> 00:15:40,520 what we do, right? 513 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:40,663 Yeah. 514 00:15:40,663 --> 00:15:43,750 And w- when I say that, I mean the world of creation. 515 00:15:43,770 --> 00:15:46,030 There is no substitute for creating. 516 00:15:46,429 --> 00:15:48,120 For creators, there is no substitute. 517 00:15:48,130 --> 00:15:50,079 For everyone else, like, my wife couldn't give a shit less 518 00:15:50,090 --> 00:15:51,270 about a- any of this, right? 519 00:15:51,589 --> 00:15:53,340 Like- Yep … she's like, "I'm gonna- I'm going by 520 00:15:53,340 --> 00:15:55,150 the pool. You know, give me a margarita," right? 521 00:15:55,150 --> 00:15:56,629 Like, she's, like, totally good. 522 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:56,780 Yeah. 523 00:15:56,780 --> 00:15:57,289 Can take both. 524 00:15:57,459 --> 00:15:57,719 Right. 525 00:15:57,719 --> 00:15:58,340 Exactly, right? 526 00:15:58,430 --> 00:16:01,680 But for me, and I think, you know, for founders in general, 527 00:16:01,930 --> 00:16:07,009 we have this gear that, th- this calling, you know, that I don't 528 00:16:07,099 --> 00:16:09,469 feel like we appreciate, right? 529 00:16:09,469 --> 00:16:12,009 I think for a lot of folks, they don't realize that, 530 00:16:12,009 --> 00:16:15,649 like, again, what we do was never really about the job. 531 00:16:15,869 --> 00:16:18,399 The, the job was- Yeah … work, et cetera, but it 532 00:16:18,399 --> 00:16:20,129 was about mission, right? 533 00:16:20,129 --> 00:16:20,249 Yeah. 534 00:16:20,249 --> 00:16:21,059 It was about mission. 535 00:16:21,059 --> 00:16:22,380 Startups, th- they're not a job. 536 00:16:22,380 --> 00:16:23,220 They're a mission. 537 00:16:23,349 --> 00:16:25,039 It's a problem we've set out to solve. 538 00:16:25,279 --> 00:16:25,609 Right. 539 00:16:25,730 --> 00:16:28,460 My dad working on the job site was not on a mission. 540 00:16:28,460 --> 00:16:29,350 He was on a mission to go home. 541 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:29,490 No. 542 00:16:30,430 --> 00:16:32,530 Yeah, yeah. 543 00:16:32,530 --> 00:16:33,189 He was like, "I gotta, I gotta get, stop doing this," right? 544 00:16:33,189 --> 00:16:33,989 How quickly can we finish this, get paid the same amount, 545 00:16:34,029 --> 00:16:36,119 and watch the Braves play or whatever it is, right? 546 00:16:36,500 --> 00:16:39,189 You know, something that's really funny about everything 547 00:16:39,189 --> 00:16:42,679 we talk about here is that none of it is new. 548 00:16:42,909 --> 00:16:45,430 Everything you're dealing with right now has been done a 549 00:16:45,559 --> 00:16:49,299 thousand times before you, which means the answer already exists. 550 00:16:49,309 --> 00:16:51,229 You may just not know it, but that's okay. 551 00:16:51,549 --> 00:16:53,369 That's kind of what we're here to do. 552 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,500 We talk about this stuff on the show, but we actually solve 553 00:16:56,500 --> 00:16:58,459 these problems all day long at 554 00:16:58,459 --> 00:17:00,109 groups.startups.com. 555 00:17:00,259 --> 00:17:03,489 So if any of this sounds familiar, stop guessing 556 00:17:03,559 --> 00:17:04,539 about what to do. 557 00:17:04,779 --> 00:17:07,929 Let us just give you the answers to the test and be done with it. 558 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,400 There is nothing more exciting, more fulfilling than when- Yeah 559 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,219 we are on mission, right? 560 00:17:14,220 --> 00:17:17,889 When we are challenged, when we are creating, when our, 561 00:17:17,889 --> 00:17:22,109 our minds are exploding, even though it has so many 562 00:17:22,110 --> 00:17:24,619 negative consequences along the way, economically, 563 00:17:24,619 --> 00:17:26,759 emotionally, physically, you know, you, you name it. 564 00:17:26,759 --> 00:17:26,959 Yep. 565 00:17:27,059 --> 00:17:27,359 Right? 566 00:17:27,799 --> 00:17:28,039 They're all there. 567 00:17:28,039 --> 00:17:28,990 And all those costs are real. 568 00:17:29,389 --> 00:17:30,880 But let's go back to you running. 569 00:17:31,766 --> 00:17:33,626 I would equate it to a triathlete. 570 00:17:33,946 --> 00:17:36,436 What a triathlete has to do for like an Ironman, to 571 00:17:36,436 --> 00:17:39,846 prepare for an Ironman, is grueling at best- Mm … and 572 00:17:39,846 --> 00:17:40,956 punishing at every level. 573 00:17:41,405 --> 00:17:45,596 But the idea is they're on a mission, and that mission is to 574 00:17:45,596 --> 00:17:47,476 complete this objective, right? 575 00:17:47,516 --> 00:17:47,756 Yep. 576 00:17:47,816 --> 00:17:50,465 And when they do, the feeling you get from 577 00:17:50,486 --> 00:17:51,816 crossing that finish line- 578 00:17:52,445 --> 00:17:52,465 Yeah 579 00:17:52,466 --> 00:17:52,496 right? 580 00:17:52,496 --> 00:17:53,205 Pure euphoria. 581 00:17:53,835 --> 00:17:55,036 There's nothing else like it. 582 00:17:55,406 --> 00:17:58,625 I think what happens is, this is the folly, I think what 583 00:17:58,626 --> 00:18:03,696 happens is we believe that we can get that same outcome, that 584 00:18:03,696 --> 00:18:07,225 same feeling, without training, without running the triathlon. 585 00:18:07,235 --> 00:18:07,255 Yeah. 586 00:18:07,525 --> 00:18:07,835 Right? 587 00:18:07,845 --> 00:18:07,865 Yeah. 588 00:18:07,895 --> 00:18:09,916 They're like, "Oh, well, I don't wanna do all the running, 589 00:18:09,916 --> 00:18:12,055 but I want the part where I cross the finish line." 590 00:18:12,316 --> 00:18:13,635 Yeah, the finish line looks cool. 591 00:18:13,645 --> 00:18:13,835 Yeah. 592 00:18:13,836 --> 00:18:14,881 How do I… Can I just start near that? 593 00:18:14,881 --> 00:18:14,948 Just 594 00:18:14,948 --> 00:18:15,985 one of those instead. 595 00:18:16,255 --> 00:18:17,106 Let me start there. 596 00:18:17,406 --> 00:18:19,855 And I think that's what we misunderstand. 597 00:18:19,886 --> 00:18:22,976 Like, all of this hardship, and, and there's lot… Of course 598 00:18:22,976 --> 00:18:24,355 you want less of it, okay? 599 00:18:24,395 --> 00:18:25,936 Uh, again- Yeah … there's no argument there. 600 00:18:26,605 --> 00:18:29,575 But the idea that, that you wanna make it all go away, 601 00:18:29,575 --> 00:18:32,355 you wanna take the hardship away, also means you're 602 00:18:32,355 --> 00:18:33,815 gonna take the upside away. 603 00:18:34,055 --> 00:18:34,075 Yeah. 604 00:18:34,195 --> 00:18:35,615 And the upside ain't small. 605 00:18:36,105 --> 00:18:37,075 And I don't mean financially. 606 00:18:37,086 --> 00:18:37,106 Yeah. 607 00:18:37,115 --> 00:18:38,845 I mean m- maybe, maybe if things go well. 608 00:18:39,278 --> 00:18:41,718 The excitement- Yeah … of running the race, of crossing 609 00:18:41,728 --> 00:18:44,788 the finish line, man, there is no substitute for that. 610 00:18:44,978 --> 00:18:45,348 Yeah. 611 00:18:45,398 --> 00:18:48,078 I think we start to dream about retirement when what 612 00:18:48,078 --> 00:18:51,438 we really need is just, it's recovery, right? 613 00:18:51,478 --> 00:18:51,728 Yeah. 614 00:18:51,758 --> 00:18:53,037 To me- Oh, 100% recovery. 615 00:18:53,037 --> 00:18:53,217 Yeah. 616 00:18:53,217 --> 00:18:55,638 No doubt … this, this desire to never work again is the 617 00:18:55,638 --> 00:18:57,447 incorrect framing, right? 618 00:18:57,468 --> 00:19:00,058 It's a signal that the current way of working 619 00:19:00,548 --> 00:19:01,587 has become unsustainable. 620 00:19:01,907 --> 00:19:02,187 Yeah. 621 00:19:02,527 --> 00:19:02,589 Of course it is. 622 00:19:02,589 --> 00:19:02,603 Right? 623 00:19:02,603 --> 00:19:04,068 And so relief- This is a hard job, man … from 624 00:19:04,068 --> 00:19:05,858 stress feels like freedom. 625 00:19:06,028 --> 00:19:06,218 Yeah. 626 00:19:06,258 --> 00:19:08,907 And it is, but it lacks fulfillment, and I think 627 00:19:08,917 --> 00:19:09,937 that's really the problem. 628 00:19:09,948 --> 00:19:11,207 That's what draws us back in. 629 00:19:11,677 --> 00:19:15,317 So this fantasy of retirement, generally speaking, forms 630 00:19:15,318 --> 00:19:18,507 at the lowest energy point, which also makes it a really 631 00:19:18,528 --> 00:19:20,568 bad life design blueprint. 632 00:19:20,577 --> 00:19:23,127 Like, you don't wanna be sitting down and doing that, right? 633 00:19:23,147 --> 00:19:25,367 Retirement for founders is just like, it's burnout 634 00:19:25,368 --> 00:19:27,147 wearing a Hawaiian shirt on a beach with a Mai Tai. 635 00:19:28,107 --> 00:19:31,007 Like, what they, they don't mean that they, they wanna retire. 636 00:19:31,008 --> 00:19:32,418 They mean that they want the pain to stop, right? 637 00:19:32,418 --> 00:19:33,118 You said this before, Mitch. 638 00:19:33,138 --> 00:19:34,677 The, the, the pain- Yeah … needs to stop. 639 00:19:34,677 --> 00:19:36,348 The, the dream isn't no work. 640 00:19:36,677 --> 00:19:39,338 The dream's probably something like no panic, no pain, no fear. 641 00:19:39,377 --> 00:19:39,677 Right. 642 00:19:39,857 --> 00:19:41,117 The relief isn't your calling. 643 00:19:41,147 --> 00:19:41,857 It's not a switch. 644 00:19:41,857 --> 00:19:43,457 It's not like, "Oh, now I've earned relief. It's 645 00:19:43,467 --> 00:19:46,108 now my new calling." No, that's the pressure valve. 646 00:19:46,337 --> 00:19:46,497 Yep. 647 00:19:46,507 --> 00:19:46,627 Right? 648 00:19:46,627 --> 00:19:49,307 And we definitely don't want to design our entire 649 00:19:49,307 --> 00:19:52,648 future, uh, from our, our most exhausted self. 650 00:19:52,657 --> 00:19:54,477 'Cause well, how often have we seen this, this play out, right? 651 00:19:54,517 --> 00:19:57,657 Like, founder sells, disappears for a few months, 652 00:19:57,937 --> 00:20:00,487 kind of plays golf, sleeps, finally breathes, whatever. 653 00:20:00,498 --> 00:20:00,528 Yeah, recovers. 654 00:20:00,958 --> 00:20:01,218 Right. 655 00:20:01,458 --> 00:20:03,517 Around month three they start saying stuff like, 656 00:20:03,757 --> 00:20:06,077 "I'm not starting a company, but I've been thinking 657 00:20:06,077 --> 00:20:07,067 about this market," right? 658 00:20:07,067 --> 00:20:07,447 Yep. 659 00:20:07,447 --> 00:20:11,347 It's a… And to me, look, that's not retirement failing. 660 00:20:11,638 --> 00:20:14,427 That's your nervous system coming back online and 661 00:20:14,437 --> 00:20:17,397 you finally being back in the, like, I can build. 662 00:20:17,517 --> 00:20:17,767 Yeah. 663 00:20:17,767 --> 00:20:19,557 And so rather than have to think that you have to 664 00:20:19,557 --> 00:20:21,727 completely extricate yourself from the first business 665 00:20:21,727 --> 00:20:24,247 and kill it or sell it or whatever, that you can do that. 666 00:20:24,257 --> 00:20:26,057 Like, I, I think the, the idea is that we have to 667 00:20:26,057 --> 00:20:29,028 recalibrate how we're running what we're doing now and 668 00:20:29,028 --> 00:20:30,337 make it sustainable, right? 669 00:20:30,337 --> 00:20:30,347 Right. 670 00:20:30,347 --> 00:20:33,797 So I, I think we really have to separate recovery plan 671 00:20:33,797 --> 00:20:34,908 from retirement plan here. 672 00:20:35,057 --> 00:20:39,068 I agree, and, and I think that w- we can't deny that what 673 00:20:39,068 --> 00:20:41,107 we do is a calling, right? 674 00:20:41,127 --> 00:20:43,267 Like- Oh, it- … we do what we do because we're- Some 675 00:20:43,267 --> 00:20:44,807 people are and some people are not, right? 676 00:20:44,807 --> 00:20:45,977 Like it's- Yeah … it's pretty clear. 677 00:20:46,257 --> 00:20:48,517 We do what we do 'cause we're fucking good at it, and the 678 00:20:48,517 --> 00:20:50,757 idea of saying let's find a way to take that away from 679 00:20:50,757 --> 00:20:52,717 ourselves is pure folly. 680 00:20:52,757 --> 00:20:56,117 I just- Yeah … I, I, I don't believe there's a world where 681 00:20:56,367 --> 00:21:00,766 the person who is, is absolutely stellar at building- has said, 682 00:21:01,166 --> 00:21:04,556 "I was so good at that, that was my calling, but now I golf 683 00:21:04,556 --> 00:21:05,716 and that is so much better." 684 00:21:05,946 --> 00:21:06,276 Yeah. 685 00:21:06,466 --> 00:21:08,296 And, and look, and maybe you love golf so much- 686 00:21:08,296 --> 00:21:08,956 That's a substantive- … that that's true. 687 00:21:09,016 --> 00:21:10,956 I hate golf, so a- again, this, it's probably 688 00:21:11,036 --> 00:21:11,946 not a fair analogy. 689 00:21:12,206 --> 00:21:12,886 However, however- I 690 00:21:12,886 --> 00:21:13,926 like driving the cart. 691 00:21:13,935 --> 00:21:14,446 Does that count? 692 00:21:14,446 --> 00:21:14,726 Yeah. 693 00:21:15,356 --> 00:21:16,716 I like drinking on the cart. 694 00:21:16,716 --> 00:21:16,845 It's fun. 695 00:21:16,845 --> 00:21:17,665 I don't care if it's going anywhere. 696 00:21:17,986 --> 00:21:18,876 You drink, I'll drive. 697 00:21:19,026 --> 00:21:19,116 How about that? 698 00:21:19,116 --> 00:21:19,206 Yeah. 699 00:21:19,206 --> 00:21:19,466 Perfect. 700 00:21:19,626 --> 00:21:22,986 The way I look at it is for folks that were built to 701 00:21:22,995 --> 00:21:25,546 do this, I say this all the time- Yeah … if you were the 702 00:21:25,546 --> 00:21:29,875 kind of person that was built to be able to retire young, 703 00:21:30,466 --> 00:21:33,326 then the last thing you're built for is retiring young. 704 00:21:33,496 --> 00:21:33,676 No. 705 00:21:33,685 --> 00:21:33,825 Right? 706 00:21:33,825 --> 00:21:34,996 Climb a ladder and jump off it. 707 00:21:35,026 --> 00:21:35,106 Yeah. 708 00:21:35,296 --> 00:21:36,185 Like, that's, that's how you do 709 00:21:36,185 --> 00:21:36,325 that. 710 00:21:36,325 --> 00:21:37,925 I'm just saying, like- Yeah … if you're the kind of person 711 00:21:37,996 --> 00:21:41,405 that had the capability and the drive and ambition to be able 712 00:21:41,406 --> 00:21:45,445 to retire at 37 years old, just, you know, as an example, then 713 00:21:45,445 --> 00:21:47,895 you're- Yeah … not the kind of person that was intended to be 714 00:21:47,895 --> 00:21:49,045 sitting on a golf course- Right 715 00:21:49,055 --> 00:21:52,365 or a country club for the rest of your life at 37 years old. 716 00:21:52,366 --> 00:21:54,655 Like, those two things are- Well- … run polar opposite. 717 00:21:54,805 --> 00:21:56,976 Yes and no, but play that out for a second because I think 718 00:21:56,976 --> 00:21:59,115 there are people who have set that up as… Now I'm, I'm not 719 00:21:59,116 --> 00:22:00,966 gonna say that they're correct about what their dream is 720 00:22:00,966 --> 00:22:02,655 because they probably haven't played chess, they don't know. 721 00:22:02,965 --> 00:22:05,325 But I think there are people who are built to do that kind of 722 00:22:05,325 --> 00:22:07,775 thing, where it's like, because that was their motivation. 723 00:22:07,775 --> 00:22:08,185 Maybe. 724 00:22:08,185 --> 00:22:10,685 Their motivation was- Yeah … go find path to 725 00:22:10,685 --> 00:22:13,806 money, work hard, do these things so I can retire, and 726 00:22:13,806 --> 00:22:15,415 I think there are people who aren't built that way. 727 00:22:15,415 --> 00:22:17,266 I'd say that's, that's a lot of corporate people 728 00:22:17,266 --> 00:22:17,885 are built that way. 729 00:22:17,915 --> 00:22:18,075 Yeah, 730 00:22:19,235 --> 00:22:19,295 oh, that I agree. 731 00:22:19,295 --> 00:22:19,955 Their motivation was that thing. 732 00:22:20,126 --> 00:22:20,266 Yep. 733 00:22:20,275 --> 00:22:20,515 I agree with that. 734 00:22:20,515 --> 00:22:21,345 That wasn't our motivation. 735 00:22:21,355 --> 00:22:23,855 That becomes our motivation later when we're like, 736 00:22:24,196 --> 00:22:27,755 "Holy shit, I'm tired. I'm just, I'm really tired." 737 00:22:27,825 --> 00:22:29,366 Is retirement less tiring? 738 00:22:29,435 --> 00:22:29,845 Is it? 739 00:22:30,145 --> 00:22:31,485 Why is it called retired? 740 00:22:31,726 --> 00:22:31,756 Right? 741 00:22:32,746 --> 00:22:34,026 Like, I don't wanna be tired anymore. 742 00:22:34,255 --> 00:22:34,985 I wanna be something else. 743 00:22:35,406 --> 00:22:36,906 But I think we gotta be really careful, right? 744 00:22:36,906 --> 00:22:39,766 'Cause again, like, leisure will remove some of the stress of the 745 00:22:39,766 --> 00:22:42,785 business, but it doesn't replace the meaning that it gave. 746 00:22:42,785 --> 00:22:43,686 So I think that's the difference. 747 00:22:43,686 --> 00:22:43,831 That's… Yeah. 748 00:22:43,831 --> 00:22:45,955 I think that's the difference, because for us, the business 749 00:22:45,976 --> 00:22:46,926 is the meaning, right? 750 00:22:46,935 --> 00:22:46,955 Yeah. 751 00:22:46,955 --> 00:22:48,696 It's the mission, it's the purpose, it's all that stuff. 752 00:22:48,715 --> 00:22:51,415 Whereas, so some other people, the work was a means to an end. 753 00:22:51,485 --> 00:22:51,515 Yep. 754 00:22:51,516 --> 00:22:53,655 Like in your, in your father's case, you know, the, the 755 00:22:53,656 --> 00:22:56,535 houses weren't like, "Once I build, I wanna build 300 homes 756 00:22:56,535 --> 00:22:58,576 and know that I've put, you know, families under root." 757 00:22:58,586 --> 00:22:59,405 Like, that wasn't his thing. 758 00:22:59,406 --> 00:22:59,918 He was like, "I want-" Yeah. 759 00:22:59,918 --> 00:23:00,435 It's not a mission 760 00:23:00,435 --> 00:23:02,550 "swing hammer, get paid." Bed Be done Right. 761 00:23:02,550 --> 00:23:02,879 That's it 762 00:23:03,430 --> 00:23:03,720 Right. 763 00:23:03,910 --> 00:23:04,280 That's it. 764 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,180 I think for creators, right? 765 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,580 Now, again, l- let's talk about something slightly different. 766 00:23:08,590 --> 00:23:11,110 I wanna cautiously use this, this analogy. 767 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,440 Let's say you were a stock trader, right? 768 00:23:13,670 --> 00:23:16,040 Who, who are notorious for making a voluminous amount of 769 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:17,009 money in a short period of time. 770 00:23:17,269 --> 00:23:19,459 I am a stock trader of the exact opposite sort. 771 00:23:19,729 --> 00:23:21,270 I'm good at the opposite, the opposite. 772 00:23:21,350 --> 00:23:21,540 Yeah. 773 00:23:21,569 --> 00:23:23,000 I can, I can lose money really fast. 774 00:23:23,619 --> 00:23:23,819 Right. 775 00:23:23,850 --> 00:23:26,119 So, and let's say once again, at 37 years old, 776 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:27,699 you've made enough money, you never have to work again. 777 00:23:27,719 --> 00:23:27,929 Yep. 778 00:23:28,090 --> 00:23:30,620 And I would argue you're coming from an industry that 779 00:23:30,620 --> 00:23:32,690 is so cutthroat and so- Yeah 780 00:23:32,699 --> 00:23:35,469 painful and so grueling that th- you had every reason 781 00:23:35,469 --> 00:23:36,599 to not wanna do it anymore. 782 00:23:36,780 --> 00:23:38,000 I don't know that there is such a thing as a 783 00:23:38,030 --> 00:23:39,069 calling within that. 784 00:23:39,300 --> 00:23:41,009 Well, okay, so, so here's what I would say. 785 00:23:41,039 --> 00:23:42,760 I wanna be careful 'cause, you know, we're making- Yeah … a 786 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:43,659 lot of generalizations. 787 00:23:43,879 --> 00:23:46,989 That to me is less about mission and calling. 788 00:23:47,030 --> 00:23:47,309 Mm-hmm. 789 00:23:47,449 --> 00:23:49,129 And that's more about just means to an end. 790 00:23:49,139 --> 00:23:49,149 I- 791 00:23:49,530 --> 00:23:51,659 in that case, the mission is that is the means. 792 00:23:51,859 --> 00:23:54,030 And I think there are times where that absolutely is the 793 00:23:54,030 --> 00:23:55,499 thing, but it's not for us. 794 00:23:55,699 --> 00:23:59,169 I think for what we do as founders and creators, I 795 00:23:59,190 --> 00:24:01,029 don't think we have that gear. 796 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:02,769 I don't think it's just a means to an end. 797 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,349 I think because of who we are and, and how we operate as 798 00:24:06,350 --> 00:24:09,980 builders, our mind constantly wants that challenge. 799 00:24:09,980 --> 00:24:10,120 Yeah. 800 00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:11,759 I don't think we are satisfied. 801 00:24:11,770 --> 00:24:12,869 I don't wanna use happiness 'cause that's 802 00:24:12,870 --> 00:24:13,639 an amorphous concept. 803 00:24:13,649 --> 00:24:13,669 Yeah. 804 00:24:13,919 --> 00:24:17,969 I don't think we are satisfied unless we are latching onto that 805 00:24:17,969 --> 00:24:22,039 type of challenge, and there is no other challenge that most 806 00:24:22,039 --> 00:24:27,197 people can find- That even pale, anything pales in comparison 807 00:24:27,197 --> 00:24:28,928 to starting a startup, right? 808 00:24:28,928 --> 00:24:29,158 Yeah. 809 00:24:29,158 --> 00:24:30,628 Which is why everybody goes back to it. 810 00:24:31,168 --> 00:24:31,258 Definitely. 811 00:24:31,258 --> 00:24:34,658 Because we're like, damn, that was the only game worth playing. 812 00:24:34,888 --> 00:24:36,648 And it's funny too, because it's not even just 813 00:24:36,648 --> 00:24:37,687 the successful, right? 814 00:24:37,687 --> 00:24:41,317 Like, how many third time failed founders do we know who are 815 00:24:41,317 --> 00:24:42,467 working on their fourth startup? 816 00:24:42,608 --> 00:24:43,538 Oh, yeah, 100%. 817 00:24:43,627 --> 00:24:43,847 Right? 818 00:24:43,877 --> 00:24:45,547 It doesn't- It's not just like, "Oh, that worked. 819 00:24:45,547 --> 00:24:47,627 Let me do it again." It's not even that, and I think 820 00:24:47,637 --> 00:24:51,508 that's what points out that it is a calling, and it 821 00:24:51,508 --> 00:24:52,967 is a mission-based thing. 822 00:24:53,407 --> 00:24:54,667 It's not just a means to an end. 823 00:24:54,678 --> 00:24:57,877 Because if you failed three times, clearly this doesn't 824 00:24:57,877 --> 00:24:59,727 seem to be the means to an end. 825 00:24:59,807 --> 00:25:00,747 Not that type of end, right? 826 00:25:00,747 --> 00:25:01,887 Not a retirement, certainly. 827 00:25:02,168 --> 00:25:04,317 And so I think that's where we have to kind of figure 828 00:25:04,317 --> 00:25:06,687 out, like, where are we at in this whole thing, right? 829 00:25:06,687 --> 00:25:06,727 Of course. 830 00:25:06,727 --> 00:25:08,447 And of course, like, we get closer to retirement, like, 831 00:25:08,447 --> 00:25:10,837 we're not gonna miss the stress, but damn, you're gonna miss the 832 00:25:10,837 --> 00:25:12,647 voltage of being plugged into one of these things, right? 833 00:25:12,778 --> 00:25:13,808 Okay, so stick with that. 834 00:25:14,437 --> 00:25:16,527 I've got a bunch of friends that have retired 835 00:25:16,528 --> 00:25:17,837 relatively young, right? 836 00:25:18,118 --> 00:25:18,258 Okay. 837 00:25:18,258 --> 00:25:18,947 30s and 40s, okay? 838 00:25:18,947 --> 00:25:21,008 So they, they made just enough money that they just 839 00:25:21,008 --> 00:25:21,787 don't have to work anymore. 840 00:25:22,187 --> 00:25:22,217 Uh-huh. 841 00:25:22,317 --> 00:25:24,787 And some of them have gone maybe 10 years since then, 842 00:25:24,957 --> 00:25:26,457 and they haven't, you know, started another company. 843 00:25:26,857 --> 00:25:29,118 And th- these are lots and lots of people that I'm kind 844 00:25:29,118 --> 00:25:31,837 of parsing through my, my rol- my mental Rolodex in this. 845 00:25:32,047 --> 00:25:33,098 And here's what I would say. 846 00:25:33,487 --> 00:25:36,677 For all of those folks, some of them are satisfied, 847 00:25:36,918 --> 00:25:37,987 which sounds wonderful. 848 00:25:38,358 --> 00:25:40,647 They're not charged the way they used to be. 849 00:25:40,657 --> 00:25:40,917 Right. 850 00:25:41,447 --> 00:25:41,467 Yeah. 851 00:25:41,477 --> 00:25:43,608 Satisfied, like, "Man, I'm glad I get up in the morning. 852 00:25:43,617 --> 00:25:45,897 I don't have anybody bugging me," you know, release the pain. 853 00:25:46,098 --> 00:25:48,587 "I don't have any VC that I gotta chase down. 854 00:25:48,587 --> 00:25:49,718 I don't have, like… You know, whatever. 855 00:25:49,718 --> 00:25:52,488 Like, my satisfaction comes from the lack of pain," right? 856 00:25:52,488 --> 00:25:52,528 Yep. 857 00:25:52,528 --> 00:25:55,517 Which I, I get, but there's no charge anymore. 858 00:25:55,818 --> 00:25:56,098 Yeah. 859 00:25:56,127 --> 00:25:59,847 There's no, "I jump out of bed, and I run to go 860 00:25:59,848 --> 00:26:02,677 do this, 'cause I am so goddamn fired up," right? 861 00:26:02,697 --> 00:26:02,907 Yep. 862 00:26:03,007 --> 00:26:03,947 It looks more like this. 863 00:26:04,267 --> 00:26:04,867 "Man, it's great. 864 00:26:04,867 --> 00:26:05,737 Man, I get up in the morning. 865 00:26:05,748 --> 00:26:07,468 I get out of bed kind of whenever I want. 866 00:26:07,468 --> 00:26:09,297 I still get, you know, keep a reasonable schedule. 867 00:26:09,458 --> 00:26:12,027 Go work out in the morning, have lunch with my spouse." You were 868 00:26:12,028 --> 00:26:13,017 saying that's the thing, right? 869 00:26:13,017 --> 00:26:14,127 Like, you know, have lunch with my spouse. 870 00:26:14,367 --> 00:26:16,357 Piddle around a little bit, uh, contact a few buddies. 871 00:26:16,367 --> 00:26:18,838 Sometimes I'll do g- golf or I'll do this or that, and 872 00:26:18,838 --> 00:26:20,957 I just kind of do whatever I want whenever I want. 873 00:26:21,357 --> 00:26:24,597 And again, that sounds wildly satisfying, but it 874 00:26:24,657 --> 00:26:25,937 sounds like zero charge. 875 00:26:26,348 --> 00:26:31,237 The charge was when you were so excited and on mission about 876 00:26:31,237 --> 00:26:34,097 what you were doing, it didn't occur to you what time it was. 877 00:26:34,107 --> 00:26:34,127 Yeah. 878 00:26:34,637 --> 00:26:36,777 It didn't occur to you how much time had elapsed or 879 00:26:36,777 --> 00:26:38,838 how much, like, pain you had endured because you 880 00:26:38,838 --> 00:26:40,477 were so fired up, right? 881 00:26:40,508 --> 00:26:40,818 Yeah. 882 00:26:40,947 --> 00:26:42,688 Like- We, we get to the point where, like, the thing that 883 00:26:42,747 --> 00:26:45,637 nearly killed us yesterday before we went to bed is the 884 00:26:45,637 --> 00:26:48,207 thing we wake up excited to do the next morning, right? 885 00:26:48,208 --> 00:26:48,398 Correct. 886 00:26:48,527 --> 00:26:49,157 100%, man. 887 00:26:49,157 --> 00:26:49,598 That's it. 888 00:26:49,607 --> 00:26:50,427 That's how we're built. 889 00:26:50,678 --> 00:26:53,898 Right, and so th- this idea of retiring and not 890 00:26:53,907 --> 00:26:56,478 doing that anymore, not having that purpose, that 891 00:26:56,478 --> 00:26:59,718 charge, to me is terrifying. 892 00:26:59,857 --> 00:27:00,197 Oh, it is. 893 00:27:00,208 --> 00:27:02,437 I- in very simple terms, here's the transition that 894 00:27:02,447 --> 00:27:04,457 you have to make in order to go from one to the other. 895 00:27:04,467 --> 00:27:07,750 You go from creation- To consumption, right? 896 00:27:07,820 --> 00:27:11,310 You go from making things to- Yeah … just taking in 897 00:27:11,310 --> 00:27:13,000 what's there and absorbing- Yep … stuff, and it's, it's 898 00:27:13,010 --> 00:27:14,110 not the same thing, right? 899 00:27:14,550 --> 00:27:17,510 Uh, there's no real substitute for creation, 900 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,119 and for me, consumption gets boring really fast. 901 00:27:20,129 --> 00:27:21,769 Like, just taking what other- Yeah … people have done. 902 00:27:21,819 --> 00:27:23,889 Like, at some point I'm just like, "I wanna m- 903 00:27:23,899 --> 00:27:25,159 me do it myself," right? 904 00:27:25,159 --> 00:27:26,319 I started saying that when I was two years old, and 905 00:27:26,319 --> 00:27:27,049 I haven't stopped since. 906 00:27:27,330 --> 00:27:30,129 And I gotta say, like, when I think about where 907 00:27:30,129 --> 00:27:32,780 I enjoy, you know, where, where I enjoy my time. 908 00:27:32,780 --> 00:27:34,669 So you know, obviously, you know, throughout the coup- last 909 00:27:34,669 --> 00:27:36,549 couple years we've been talking about m- me building a house. 910 00:27:36,789 --> 00:27:39,439 Last December, I took December off to do 911 00:27:39,439 --> 00:27:40,469 nothing but build house. 912 00:27:40,689 --> 00:27:43,709 Now honestly, that gave me a lot of vibes of working with my dad. 913 00:27:43,899 --> 00:27:44,479 My back hurt. 914 00:27:44,479 --> 00:27:44,709 Yep. 915 00:27:44,719 --> 00:27:45,209 My knees hurt. 916 00:27:45,929 --> 00:27:46,199 Yeah. 917 00:27:46,219 --> 00:27:47,439 Like, this is a lot of work. 918 00:27:48,050 --> 00:27:50,589 And I'm working 14 hours a day and burning, like, 4,000 919 00:27:50,589 --> 00:27:53,979 calories a day, and I'm like, I am whipped, okay? 920 00:27:54,269 --> 00:27:57,439 Now, that was a marathon toward a very specific goal. 921 00:27:57,449 --> 00:27:57,479 Yes. 922 00:27:57,879 --> 00:28:01,549 However, however, I'd be lying if, if I were to tell you that 923 00:28:01,559 --> 00:28:04,709 there wasn't a part of me that would take that over a vacation. 924 00:28:04,839 --> 00:28:05,649 Hold on. 925 00:28:06,289 --> 00:28:10,000 I watched you several times take that over a vacation. 926 00:28:10,010 --> 00:28:10,270 Yeah. 927 00:28:10,270 --> 00:28:11,899 Well, my family was on vacation- Like, like- … while I was 928 00:28:11,899 --> 00:28:12,429 doing that, so I literally took that … well, you 929 00:28:12,939 --> 00:28:13,920 actually made that trade. 930 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:14,179 Yeah. 931 00:28:14,179 --> 00:28:14,189 Yeah. 932 00:28:14,189 --> 00:28:15,539 That's not, that's not theoretical. 933 00:28:15,549 --> 00:28:15,699 That, that happened. 934 00:28:15,699 --> 00:28:16,149 I did. 935 00:28:16,149 --> 00:28:16,529 I did. 936 00:28:16,799 --> 00:28:20,049 And again, my wife and kids are just awesome, so, like, they 937 00:28:20,049 --> 00:28:23,219 understand, like, when Dad's on mission, just let Dad be, 938 00:28:23,269 --> 00:28:24,269 let Dad cook- Yeah … right? 939 00:28:24,269 --> 00:28:24,417 Yeah. 940 00:28:24,417 --> 00:28:25,519 Let, uh, let Dad do his thing. 941 00:28:25,829 --> 00:28:29,139 But, but the other side of it is not a single moment 942 00:28:29,149 --> 00:28:30,930 had gone by, other than wanting to spend time with my 943 00:28:30,930 --> 00:28:32,499 family, where I was like- Yeah 944 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,189 I'd much rather be on a beach right now. 945 00:28:34,968 --> 00:28:35,258 Right? 946 00:28:35,268 --> 00:28:36,318 I mean, think about that. 947 00:28:36,588 --> 00:28:39,468 I'm taking my vacation time, time I should be recharging with 948 00:28:39,468 --> 00:28:40,818 and doing the opposite- Yeah … you know, kind of running 949 00:28:40,818 --> 00:28:45,957 myself harder, and I'm saying what I want to do is create. 950 00:28:46,288 --> 00:28:48,098 And to me, that's a vacation. 951 00:28:48,098 --> 00:28:50,747 Now, now when I say that, I don't expect everybody to feel 952 00:28:50,748 --> 00:28:52,067 the same way, not even close. 953 00:28:52,657 --> 00:28:56,097 But what I wanna point out is I don't wanna be in a position 954 00:28:56,448 --> 00:28:57,307 where I'm not creating. 955 00:28:58,048 --> 00:28:58,278 Yeah. 956 00:28:58,477 --> 00:28:58,747 Right? 957 00:28:58,798 --> 00:29:01,447 Like, I'm not looking for a future where I'm like, 958 00:29:01,718 --> 00:29:03,648 "I'd really like to stop doing what I'm good at." 959 00:29:04,128 --> 00:29:04,758 Let me put it this way. 960 00:29:04,788 --> 00:29:07,727 I'm 100% confident that if the greatest of all time and 961 00:29:07,728 --> 00:29:09,597 really any other player, you know, whether it was, you 962 00:29:09,597 --> 00:29:11,798 know, Michael Jordan, Tom Brady, whatever, could play 963 00:29:11,798 --> 00:29:14,547 to their 100 Warren Buffett style, they'd absolutely- Yeah 964 00:29:14,577 --> 00:29:15,727 be playing to the- to their 100. 965 00:29:15,998 --> 00:29:17,217 Tom Brady actually tried it. 966 00:29:17,487 --> 00:29:17,507 Yeah. 967 00:29:17,677 --> 00:29:18,117 Getting closer. 968 00:29:18,717 --> 00:29:21,108 But it's because that's what we're built to do, dude, right? 969 00:29:21,357 --> 00:29:21,467 Yeah. 970 00:29:21,717 --> 00:29:23,747 Like, why would we wanna stop doing it? 971 00:29:24,138 --> 00:29:25,118 Why would we wanna stop doing it? 972 00:29:25,118 --> 00:29:25,617 I don't get it. 973 00:29:25,908 --> 00:29:26,248 Yeah. 974 00:29:26,478 --> 00:29:29,457 I think we can deny that builder impulse for a little while, 975 00:29:29,627 --> 00:29:30,207 especially when we're tired. 976 00:29:30,208 --> 00:29:30,468 Yeah. 977 00:29:30,718 --> 00:29:31,208 Yeah, yeah. 978 00:29:31,208 --> 00:29:31,588 It becomes easier to do. 979 00:29:31,588 --> 00:29:31,608 When we're 980 00:29:31,608 --> 00:29:31,767 tired, 981 00:29:31,767 --> 00:29:31,997 I get 982 00:29:31,997 --> 00:29:32,537 that, right? 983 00:29:32,888 --> 00:29:36,167 The, the thing is, once that stress is gone, the 984 00:29:36,167 --> 00:29:37,667 calling comes back, right? 985 00:29:37,667 --> 00:29:38,488 That's what I was saying before. 986 00:29:38,488 --> 00:29:40,637 It's like once, once the nervous system resets, 987 00:29:40,638 --> 00:29:42,547 we go, "Now what?" Right? 988 00:29:42,568 --> 00:29:42,738 Yeah. 989 00:29:42,748 --> 00:29:43,707 Like, how do I unretire? 990 00:29:43,708 --> 00:29:45,217 And I think the, the challenge I've seen for a 991 00:29:45,218 --> 00:29:46,267 lot of founders is that… 992 00:29:46,597 --> 00:29:47,927 A- and look, nothing wrong with an exit. 993 00:29:48,057 --> 00:29:48,437 Nothing wrong. 994 00:29:48,437 --> 00:29:49,008 They're great. 995 00:29:49,108 --> 00:29:49,348 Yeah. 996 00:29:49,588 --> 00:29:49,608 Yeah. 997 00:29:49,608 --> 00:29:52,298 But I've definitely seen founders who exited and then 998 00:29:52,307 --> 00:29:54,837 went on to try to find something else as purposeful as the 999 00:29:54,837 --> 00:29:56,858 business they were running, but they were tired running. 1000 00:29:56,858 --> 00:29:58,087 Not tired of running. 1001 00:29:58,157 --> 00:29:58,347 Yeah. 1002 00:29:58,358 --> 00:29:59,627 Tired while running. 1003 00:29:59,627 --> 00:29:59,647 That's different. 1004 00:29:59,647 --> 00:30:00,188 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1005 00:30:00,257 --> 00:30:00,547 Yep. 1006 00:30:01,017 --> 00:30:01,567 Very different. 1007 00:30:01,687 --> 00:30:04,017 And I think that in some of those cases, they actually 1008 00:30:04,017 --> 00:30:07,057 would've been far better off just to maintain the business. 1009 00:30:07,108 --> 00:30:08,117 They didn't need to sell it. 1010 00:30:08,127 --> 00:30:10,158 They just needed to change their relationship with it in 1011 00:30:10,158 --> 00:30:12,517 some subtle ways that could've made that easier to do. 1012 00:30:13,017 --> 00:30:14,797 It just, we just get buried under exhaustion. 1013 00:30:15,087 --> 00:30:15,807 Let's build on that. 1014 00:30:16,278 --> 00:30:19,667 I think retirement, the, what, how founders should think about 1015 00:30:19,667 --> 00:30:24,588 retirement isn't, "I want to stop working." It's I want to 1016 00:30:24,588 --> 00:30:26,568 control the outcomes, right? 1017 00:30:26,578 --> 00:30:26,598 Yeah. 1018 00:30:26,998 --> 00:30:28,668 I wanna control maybe I don't have any 1019 00:30:28,668 --> 00:30:29,778 investors anymore, right? 1020 00:30:29,778 --> 00:30:31,638 That seems to be, honestly- Yeah … be the most popular one, right? 1021 00:30:31,837 --> 00:30:33,818 Anybody that's taken on investors, that their dream 1022 00:30:33,818 --> 00:30:35,958 the next time is to not have to take on investors, right? 1023 00:30:35,958 --> 00:30:37,578 Which is ironic- Yeah … 'cause their dream the first time 1024 00:30:37,578 --> 00:30:38,697 was to, to get investors. 1025 00:30:38,877 --> 00:30:39,157 Yeah. 1026 00:30:39,198 --> 00:30:40,908 What, what can I do to get an investor in the next time? 1027 00:30:40,908 --> 00:30:42,808 What can I do to avoid that- Right … at all costs? 1028 00:30:43,048 --> 00:30:46,297 Maybe it's working with fewer people or closer 1029 00:30:46,297 --> 00:30:47,897 people or both, right? 1030 00:30:47,907 --> 00:30:50,077 It's like, "Hey, you know, I, I worked with a ton of people. 1031 00:30:50,077 --> 00:30:51,907 It was a lot of management and p- and politics and 1032 00:30:51,907 --> 00:30:52,757 everything else like that. 1033 00:30:53,188 --> 00:30:55,618 I'd love to work with a smaller team where it's very intimate 1034 00:30:55,618 --> 00:30:58,978 and, you know, we do our thing." Maybe it's control of your day. 1035 00:30:59,037 --> 00:31:02,867 Like, "I liked what I did as a founder, but the job 1036 00:31:02,877 --> 00:31:05,507 required 14 hours a day and, and I, I don't wanna do that." 1037 00:31:05,717 --> 00:31:06,287 Well, guess what? 1038 00:31:06,287 --> 00:31:06,507 Yeah. 1039 00:31:06,907 --> 00:31:09,398 You don't have to work 14 hours a day. 1040 00:31:09,407 --> 00:31:09,437 Right. 1041 00:31:09,638 --> 00:31:13,608 Your point of retirement is to say- Yep … "I want to 1042 00:31:13,608 --> 00:31:16,557 work four hours," or whatever your number is, right? 1043 00:31:16,787 --> 00:31:20,198 The point of retirement should be a set of conditions 1044 00:31:20,778 --> 00:31:24,627 that allows me to do what I love under my terms. 1045 00:31:24,637 --> 00:31:24,667 Yes. 1046 00:31:25,037 --> 00:31:26,068 Under my terms. 1047 00:31:26,077 --> 00:31:26,107 Yep. 1048 00:31:26,188 --> 00:31:29,507 That should be the framing of retirement, and we should 1049 00:31:29,507 --> 00:31:30,577 be very deliberate about it. 1050 00:31:30,807 --> 00:31:32,848 It should be my dad saying, again, this, he wouldn't 1051 00:31:32,848 --> 00:31:35,197 have said this, but my dad saying, "Well, I love to 1052 00:31:35,208 --> 00:31:38,677 build stuff, but I wanna be able to do it on my own time 1053 00:31:38,888 --> 00:31:41,018 without killing myself. You know, if I'm- Yeah … if I'm 1054 00:31:41,018 --> 00:31:44,087 in pain or if I'm exhausted the next day, I wanna be able 1055 00:31:44,087 --> 00:31:45,448 to not go to work," right? 1056 00:31:45,477 --> 00:31:45,787 Yeah. 1057 00:31:46,237 --> 00:31:47,267 That makes total sense. 1058 00:31:47,287 --> 00:31:49,488 I had a- Yep … a contractor on my job last week. 1059 00:31:49,488 --> 00:31:53,357 He was 64 years old, and he said, uh, this is why 1060 00:31:53,528 --> 00:31:54,317 my response will be funny. 1061 00:31:54,568 --> 00:31:56,988 He said, uh, "I can come next week, but I can only 1062 00:31:56,988 --> 00:31:58,557 come for six hours," right? 1063 00:31:58,627 --> 00:31:58,877 Uh-huh. 1064 00:31:59,007 --> 00:32:00,567 And I was like, "Why?" 1065 00:32:00,888 --> 00:32:02,337 The gout, Will, the gout. 1066 00:32:02,547 --> 00:32:03,048 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 1067 00:32:03,227 --> 00:32:05,307 I was like, "How dare you?" I just, it was such 1068 00:32:05,307 --> 00:32:06,277 a specific answer- Yeah 1069 00:32:06,287 --> 00:32:07,667 that I was just curious- Yeah … why he said it. 1070 00:32:07,667 --> 00:32:11,118 He's like, "Well, I'm retired." And I'm like, "But you're 1071 00:32:11,187 --> 00:32:14,258 still working, right?" He's like, "No." He's like, "I 1072 00:32:14,258 --> 00:32:17,528 still work, but I work a retirement schedule, not my 1073 00:32:17,528 --> 00:32:18,888 previous schedule." I love it. 1074 00:32:18,888 --> 00:32:21,268 And I was like, "Hats off to you, brother," right? 1075 00:32:21,268 --> 00:32:21,278 Yeah. 1076 00:32:21,278 --> 00:32:23,048 Like, yes, that's the answer, right? 1077 00:32:23,068 --> 00:32:23,338 Like- 1078 00:32:23,338 --> 00:32:23,628 Yeah 1079 00:32:23,748 --> 00:32:26,027 … I'm working on my own terms, right? 1080 00:32:26,047 --> 00:32:26,724 Like- That's it. 1081 00:32:26,724 --> 00:32:28,607 Look, we can't fight the wiring, and I think it's, 1082 00:32:28,627 --> 00:32:30,918 we find ourselves apologiz- apologizing for the wiring, 1083 00:32:30,918 --> 00:32:31,687 that we're built this way. 1084 00:32:31,687 --> 00:32:32,147 This is what we are. 1085 00:32:32,488 --> 00:32:33,877 We don't have to apologize for the wiring. 1086 00:32:33,877 --> 00:32:35,417 We don't have to fully change the wiring. 1087 00:32:35,658 --> 00:32:37,857 Just start designing better circuits, right? 1088 00:32:37,857 --> 00:32:37,877 Right. 1089 00:32:37,877 --> 00:32:40,357 To your point, like, how can you make this just work in a 1090 00:32:40,357 --> 00:32:41,628 way that works better for you? 1091 00:32:41,767 --> 00:32:43,347 There's plenty of optimization to be had. 1092 00:32:43,577 --> 00:32:45,557 I don't think founders, any of us, should be 1093 00:32:45,577 --> 00:32:48,877 thinking about how do I stop doing what I'm great at? 1094 00:32:48,998 --> 00:32:49,228 Yeah. 1095 00:32:49,847 --> 00:32:53,047 I think we should reframe it to say, how do I stop doing 1096 00:32:53,047 --> 00:32:55,258 what I'm g- or how do I keep doing what I'm great at, 1097 00:32:55,847 --> 00:32:57,277 but stop doing what I hate? 1098 00:32:57,467 --> 00:32:57,647 Yeah. 1099 00:32:57,717 --> 00:33:00,007 Retirement should be about reframing. 1100 00:33:00,018 --> 00:33:03,567 So I, I don't want us to pretend like, like w- we 1101 00:33:03,568 --> 00:33:04,627 don't wanna build anymore. 1102 00:33:04,627 --> 00:33:05,497 I think that's bullshit. 1103 00:33:05,507 --> 00:33:07,327 This is what we are put on Earth- Yeah … to do, right? 1104 00:33:07,327 --> 00:33:09,047 To like, we don't wanna- Yeah … retire from that, right? 1105 00:33:09,367 --> 00:33:12,487 Retirement shouldn't be about w- what I'm, I'm not 1106 00:33:12,487 --> 00:33:13,238 doing all those things. 1107 00:33:13,397 --> 00:33:15,387 It should be about this is what I love to do. 1108 00:33:15,387 --> 00:33:16,847 I wanna do it forever. 1109 00:33:16,857 --> 00:33:16,877 Yeah. 1110 00:33:17,177 --> 00:33:20,777 But I wanna do it forever on my own terms in a way that I love, 1111 00:33:20,777 --> 00:33:23,298 that when I jump out of bed and I say, "I can't wait to do 1112 00:33:23,298 --> 00:33:24,908 this," nothing wears me down. 1113 00:33:26,497 --> 00:33:28,017 Overthinking your startup because you're going it alone? 1114 00:33:28,457 --> 00:33:30,248 You don't have to, and honestly, you shouldn't. 1115 00:33:30,558 --> 00:33:33,178 Because instead, you can learn directly from peers 1116 00:33:33,178 --> 00:33:34,427 who have been in your shoes. 1117 00:33:34,547 --> 00:33:36,186 Connect with bootstrapped founders and the advisors 1118 00:33:36,186 --> 00:33:39,307 helping them win in the Startups.com community. 1119 00:33:39,477 --> 00:33:44,077 Check out the Startups.com community at www.startups.com 1120 00:33:44,187 --> 00:33:45,097 to see if it's for you. 1121 00:33:45,378 --> 00:33:46,407 Could be just the thing you need. 1122 00:33:46,658 --> 00:33:47,608 I hope to see you inside.