Silvan (00:00)
Hi, everyone. Welcome to Long Game, a heated rivalry podcast. My name is Sylvan and I'm joined with Declan and this is part three of our heated rivalry book review.

And so that means that we are going to be talking from chapter 12 Now this is a little different how we're structuring this to our normal sort of sessions. And it's because we really want to take the time to go through some of the material because there is so much to talk about, especially in these chapters.

So I appreciate everyone who's been listening and, you know, commenting and letting us know your thoughts. It's been really, really lovely to read those as we've been reading along.

Declan (00:38)
Yeah. And what I enjoy most about being able to take it piece by piece is that you really get into the nitty gritty. Like some people think we're overanalyzing it. There's no such thing. It's nonsense. No English teacher in the world will ever tell you that you're overanalyzing. So we're not going to do it. ⁓ But I'm actually really excited for these chapters because there are quite a few changes in this particular section of the book that went from the book to the TV show. So

TV shows done some characters very differently, some relationships. So yeah, I'm looking forward to this.

Silvan (01:15)
Yeah, I can't imagine my English teacher ever thinking I was going to do a whole podcast on heated rivalry, but here we are, thankfully.

So where we left off from last time and where we're starting from is chapter 12. Now in chapter 12, we get the introduction to somebody called Brad Hammersmith. I don't know if this is significant. I don't know if someone called Brad comes back, but there's something specific about how Rachel Reed writes these hockey players' names.

Declan (01:51)
Hmm, yeah. I can confirm Brad is not really a major character going forward. So I don't really, I don't know. I think sometimes she just takes a notion. She's like, I'm just going to throw in a real stereotypical hockey name and just see where we run with this one. yeah, I don't even remember Brad before I reread the book. So yeah.

Silvan (02:17)
That's good to know because every time I come across a name now, I'm like, ⁓ is this somebody important? Cause we had Ryan from a couple of chapters ago and I'm like, is Ryan important? And I'm like, is this Brad person important? So I feel like I'm collecting all these names and just holding them with the back of my mind thinking they might come back.

Declan (02:36)
Yeah, yeah, I think you can let that one go. I don't think that's that's the name. I'm you're going to need to care about it be honest going forward, but it's funny you started doing that now.

Silvan (02:47)
Do know what it means? I've got more space in my mind, so I'm happy to let Brad go.

Declan (02:52)
There, that's okay, yeah. Make room, make room in the garage.

Silvan (02:56)
Like Marie Kondo says, if it doesn't bring you joy, get rid of it, right?

Declan (03:00)
Exactly, yes. Let's all take Marie Kwon Do's advice. It's very good.

Silvan (03:05)
So here we see Shane visiting, I think it's the aquarium with Hayden. And what struck me in this chapter is how similar actually it was to how the TV show is depicted. And especially in how it characterizes Shane at his very core, because throughout this whole process of reading the book,

Declan (03:12)
Yeah.

Silvan (03:31)
Shane does feel like a slightly different character to me from the book to the TV show. But here I feel like actually I don't see that sort of dissimilarity. And especially when Hayden says, Jackie's pregnant. And Shane replies again. I was like, I'm so glad that came in. I'm so glad.

Declan (03:49)
You

Yeah, because it's, it's the kind of like, not picking up on social cues or saying the right thing that is just more typical of his character from the TV show than it is in the book. And I'm really glad that, you know, that little bit of characterization was put in. Because it's funny, you get Shane's thoughts in this passage and you can tell he doesn't like kids.

He's like, he's not bothered about any of this. He thinks Hayden's life is like a nightmare. and that's creates such a, an interesting, an interesting dilemma, perhaps in the later books for Shane and Ilya. And I'm not going to say much more on that, but basically this is a nice little clue into how Shane currently views where he is in his life. Like he's not thinking about kids. He's not really thinking about that. Um, you know,

He is talking about feeling pressure to have his life a certain way, but he sort of like isn't interested. Like he's not interested in pursuing this sort of family life that Hayden is currently like going through, but there's definitely something that sort of repels him from that. And I think it's down to sexuality. think if he really starts to think about this stuff, this kind of family dynamic, this building of a relationship and building of a whole new family unit.

He's going to have to deal with sexuality and I don't think he wants to really do that at this point.

Silvan (05:26)
And it's really interesting that you say that because as gay men, you don't automatically, at least for the people that I'm around, you don't automatically assume that your gay friends are going to have kids, especially with gay men. It's a little bit trickier and it's a little bit harder. I don't know if what you're seeing around you is the same or it's very different.

Declan (05:42)
Yeah.

So in my immediate area, like it would be still, you would almost expect someone to want to have kids and maybe want to get married, even if they are gay. But in like Dublin, that is like, you can't even get straight people to have kids and get married in Dublin. So it's very, it's very interesting. I think the more like international and metropolitan your city is, the more people don't want to really go down that sort of traditional family route.

But for me personally, I would want to do that. I will eventually have kids one day, that is certain. But it's funny that Shane coming from a very well put together family that's pretty traditional in all senses, he is obviously going to be having to think about this stuff and how it's going to reflect on his life and his parents and his career. ⁓

what that even looked like because I don't even think he tries to picture it ⁓ at this point in time. I don't think he really can visualize it ⁓ which is very interesting because how does Ilya feel about that element of things and how will that interplay in their relationship because obviously Ilya has a very complicated family dynamic and he doesn't have a necessarily very positive outlook on how his family has gone so far.

It's actually been a bit of a disaster. So will that push Ilya to want a better family or will it push them away from having family all together as in like an extended family as in kids and marriage and stuff?

Silvan (07:33)
Exactly, because when we see Ilya's immediate family, it's not been the most positive experience, at least since his mum has died, you know, there hasn't been a family dynamic that's been very functional for him. And I do want to say something that I'm sure myself and all the listeners are thinking right now, Declan, your kids will be the most well-read kids ever.

Honestly.

Declan (07:57)
funny.

I was talking to Nate about this. There was just kids being kids outside and they were acting a maggot and just being horrible little shits. I just turned to him and said, God, kids are awful. Kids really are awful. he's like, you think our kids are going to be like us? Hopefully not. Kids will be amazing. will be so well behaved. You have no idea. And obviously, know, in like five years time, when I do have kids, it'll be like,

the iPad and go leave me in peace for five minutes or something like that. Hopefully not, I'll have to like, yeah, live by my words now, so also.

Silvan (08:39)
And then somebody else will be thinking that about your kids, like kids are awful.

Declan (08:42)
Yeah, if I get a

little monster, horrible little like who who raised you? Who's your parents?

Silvan (08:48)
Why are they sitting under

on a lounge reading?

Declan (08:51)
I know, why are you ignoring your tribe swimming in the pool by itself? Nevermind.

Silvan (08:56)
But I think you're right, think, because

live in quite a big city in the UK and a lot of my gay male friends don't want kids But it's interesting to see how my lesbian friends have all gone down like very kid orientated routes, whereas the gay male friends not so much. And it's this forging of a different type of lifestyle.

they want to create for themselves and also a lifestyle that they want they see themselves maintaining as well.

And I don't think this conversation is just exclusive to gay men. I think it applies to straight people as well. I know a lot of straight people who are sort of actively not wanting kids or going down a more traditional route and having kids, getting married, not getting married, cohabiting. And so there's a real spectrum. And I will say that the sort of gay male friends that I'm thinking of, my immediate sort of friends, they're all in long-term relationships. They're all prioritizing.

buying a house, for example, together and things like that. And to me, and I just went to a wedding a couple of weeks ago of two very good friends of mine, gay friends of mine. And there was one thing that I wrote in there. What's the wedding book called? That guest book thing? I don't know what it's called, but.

Declan (10:00)
Yeah.

No,

I can't remember either, but I know what you're talking about.

Silvan (10:20)
Yeah, if anyone knows what it's called, let us know in the comments. And I'm sure they're happy for me to share this because I wrote it, but it was so inspiring to watch two men get married in this day and age because growing up, that wasn't a narrative that I thought was realistic and achievable in my lifetime. so being able to witness these two really dear friends get married and forge this life together and buy a

house and do all of that. It was really lovely to see and it was really lovely to see everyone gathered around that and supporting them. And it felt so normal. Like that's what struck me. It just felt like any other couple and that was so heartwarming. yeah, it kind of gave me hope.

Declan (10:59)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's. That's kind of the main goal of like. Fighting for rights for queer people in general is just to let them live a normal life without judgment. whenever I do see gay people getting married and being able to have kids and adopting and being able to follow that. That traditional. It's not even traditional, it's just that sort of that's.

the right to have a family and to be in love with the person you love, spend your lives together and just develop together as people. That's now coming into the modern world is just fantastic. It's brilliant. And I wish there was more of it and I hope it sustains itself and that it only gets better and it doesn't backslide. I think there's like

There can be so much news where you do see episodes of like back sighting things and I think for trans people in particular, it's really tough time at the minute. But I am hoping that it's just a blip and that we do get to maintain this sense of normalcy and that we can just live our lives as we're supposed to and supposed to be allowed to.

Silvan (12:35)
I so agree. And speaking of kids, the

twins names in the book so Hayden's kids are named Jade and Ruby. Did you have any thoughts on that?

Declan (12:50)
Yeah,

they're stripper names.

Apologies to all the Jades and Rubies, I'm only joking. ⁓ Personally, not names I would have chosen. ⁓ Maybe not together. Like, is this gonna be like a Steven Universe thing where all the children are named like after gemstones or something like that? Jade and Ruby. Interesting that you picked up on that.

Silvan (13:05)
Maybe not together.

And

then you get the boy called Arthur. Where did that come from?

Declan (13:26)
Yeah, like why isn't Arthur called Topaz or something or Opal? Yeah. Yeah, I think Topaz is less strippery than Jade and Ruby. But sorry to all the Jade and Ruby out there, like I do apologize. I'm not a hater. I just wouldn't personally choose your name for myself.

Silvan (13:32)
That would be great. That's a very...

And Opal is very Taylor Swift.

Do know Declan, every time we record I think, is this the one that we get cancelled for? This might be it.

Declan (13:54)
That's probably the one, yeah.

This is probably it, yeah. All the gender reviews are coming from me.

Silvan (14:03)
But there was this sort of sense that I got where Hayden really wants to set Shane up. He's like, I've got this friend or Jackie has this friend rather. She's a yoga instructor. Like you really going to like her. And what struck me, I think reading the book that I didn't quite get as much. I still got it from the TV show was how engrossed Shane is with the thought of Ilya

Like he cannot fathom even being interested in anyone else.

Declan (14:39)
Yeah, he is all consumed by the relationship. And that's no small thing because at this point in time, like Shane is feeling a lot of pressure from outside sources to settle down. Like at this point in his career, he's a good few years on, he is very popular, well known player, top of the league. And he's had all this career success. And so in most people's mind, you progress next to settling down and getting married and having kids.

It's this very traditional way of living life, which I know I was advocating for not like five minutes ago, but I need to make it clear that it's not for everybody and everyone shouldn't pursue it because genuinely some people shouldn't have kids. But also because that might not necessarily make you happy as a person.

Yeah, and we're dealing with like queer people here. there isn't like for us anyway, there is no strict guideline for how you're supposed to live your life. However, if someone assumes you're straight, they're going to push that on you. And funny, I was watching like a YouTube clip earlier about your guy, Caleb Herron, and he's talking about like the privilege that gay people have. ⁓

by not having to feel pressured to start a family and to be married or to start having kids. it was played off in a very joking way and it was funny, but there's a truth to that as well. There is much less pressure to live your life in a very traditional way. so Shane is missing out on that benefit. He can't just sort of appreciate his time with Ilya because there's all these pressures, external pressures to be a certain way.

And I think that pushes the question of a sexuality a bit more to the forefront than perhaps he's comfortable with, especially at this point in time when he's really not ready to discuss it. So yeah, it's complicated for him at the minute.

Silvan (16:44)
Definitely. And you get this almost this contradiction here in this chapter where the impression I'm getting is that Shane's just waiting to meet a nice girl someday. And so he's down bad for Ilya. He can't think of anyone else. But there's a part of him that's thinking, I'll probably settle down with a nice girl. And the reason why I resonated with that was for a really long time, I feel like I felt

very similar to that. I felt I just need to meet the right girl and I will settle down and this is what my life will look like. And to me it feels like a very young perspective, not young in age but young in your journey.

Declan (17:15)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I

think it's like a stage of denial and I think most gay men in particular will go through it Where they are convinced that I can just lie to myself like I can just lie my way through this and I will be able to have the white picket fence Marry a girl and have a few kids and it will all sort itself out and I will need to worry about this

I do feel like it is the denial stage. So I feel like I went for someone very similar as well, where I was convinced that I can make this work with Gerrit's. Like, is this going to work? It's going to be fine. I'll just not think about the boys. Didn't fucking last. Because it's a fundamental part of who you are and you can't change it and you can't deny it either.

there becomes a breaking point within every single person where they literally just go, I can't do this anymore. And how that will present, hopefully you'll figure that out early enough before you commit yourself to somebody and you end up possibly making a much bigger mess than if it was just your life involved. For these people that come out while they're already married to women and have already started families, like I can't imagine. my God, the pressure of. Loving the lie.

but also not wanting to tell the truth because it will blow up your life, your spouse's life and your kid's lives. Like it's an immensely difficult thing for someone to have going on in their head. So yeah, I think it's better to try and sort out that denial as early on as you possibly can. And I don't think Shane is at that point yet.

Silvan (19:25)
No, I agree. And I think there are even conflicts for Ilya in a very different way though, because literally on the second page of this chapter, and this is where we're at, we're only two pages into this chapter, by the way, there's a defenseman that calls Ilya the F word. Now, the reason why I'm saying F word is because I don't know if we're going to get like blocked on all our socials if we say this word, I don't know. I also

don't feel comfortable using this word, but I know in very queer spaces, they've reclaimed this word as sort of an identity for them. And it doesn't have that stigma for some people. I feel like for me, it just puts me back to like middle school or high school where I was relentlessly bullied. And so this word still holds a lot of shame and a lot of hurt for me.

Declan (19:56)
Nah.

Silvan (20:24)
But Rachel Reed uses this word as, and it struck me. was like, ⁓ okay. And, you know, this defenseman literally yells the F word to him. I don't know where you stand on it. Yeah. And I'm curious to see what your thoughts are.

Declan (20:42)
I still find it really triggering. So I do like a still very triggering word for me. Like if someone calls it to me, like it's it's bad. Like it's not it's a horrible feeling. It takes me back to the time when like people weren't as nice to me. And so, yeah. It's still is frequently used. Unfortunately, it's still out there. People throw it around, especially when you're in like like

like straight company, like only guys and you will hear it thrown around. It's just a terrible word. It's just awful. And I know people are reclaiming it.

Okay, that makes you feel better if that helps you cope with it, then go for it. I personally just don't want it associated with me at all. I'd rather just throw it in the trash and burn it. That's my general thoughts on it. Yeah.

Silvan (21:46)
I think we're on the same page with that one. And I'm curious to hear about other people's experiences where they don't feel the weight of that word or they have reclaimed it. like, please reach out and tell us how you've done that or what's different for you. But the way Rachel writes this afterwards is she says, you know, Ilya shrugged, it was half true. So I was like, okay, she's making light of it. She's taking levity into this word.

Declan (22:12)
you

Silvan (22:13)
and she's turning it around in a way. And I can see Elia being like, he just shrugs and he's like, yeah, kind of half true.

Declan (22:21)
Yeah, yeah, it's the type of, I think it's a personality type as well that some people can just take shit and not touch them at all. And Ilya is very much like that. I feel like a lot of what gets thrown at Ilya, he can only give it out so well because he can take it so well. And I think it's like a perfect instance of it. Like in his head, he's going, yeah, you're right. I am like at least half gay. Like I'm definitely bisexual. Like I like men and women. So obviously if you're going to call me that then.

It's half true. So it is very tongue in cheek with him. And that's his character. It's within his characterization that like, he would be like, yeah, and like, that's just the force of his personality. So no, no, I definitely get that. I think it's a good way of characterizing him as just someone who doesn't give a shit.

Silvan (23:12)
He really doesn't. think he's someone that I would aspire to have that kind of thick skin where I don't let things like that penetrate or hurt me in a way that I choose not to allow them to hurt me. And I can think of, I don't know, do you have any friends that are just like that where people just, it just rolls off them. It doesn't, it doesn't weigh them down. They don't ruminate about things afterwards.

Declan (23:25)
Mm, yeah.

To be honest, no. I think most of these people only exist in fiction. ⁓ It's like wish fulfillment. Like everyone wishes something like that could just roll off your back. But the reality is we internalize stuff like that. We are built to do that. That's how our minds work. And not just like some people's minds, like most of our minds are built to work like that. ⁓ So much of

how we rely on our validation and being seen as accepted by people and wanted is tied up in how others view us. And you can lessen the effect of it, but I don't think you can do away with it entirely. Some things just linger. Some people just know where to hit you, where it hurts. And we're just sometimes sensitive to certain things and there's nothing wrong with that. As long as you can convince yourself that

you're more than what they tell you you are and that you can build yourself back up. It's fine, but not everyone is invincible and is able to let that stuff go so easily. So no, I don't think it exists very commonly in people.

Silvan (24:58)
Hmm, yeah. I mean, I'm a lot more sensitive than that. And speaking of sensitive people, Shane, our baby Shane is very sensitive. And there was a line that struck me where the Jade and Ruby, and yeah, let's just stay with that, Jade and Ruby, each grab Shane's hand. And there's a part that says Shane's heart clenched.

Declan (25:17)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (25:28)
Their hands were so tiny. And I'm like, I don't know, this is foreshadowing. I don't know what's going on, but there's a pull that I'm seeing from Shane. There's, yes, he might not want kids right now, but there's something about the interaction with the kids that brings out a certain side of him, I feel.

Declan (25:39)
Hmm.

Hmm. Yeah, it's all very abstract and he's sort of whining about it at the start, but as soon as like they're there and they're engaging with him and they're holding his hand, he's like, ⁓ I didn't think I want this and now I don't know. that. Like, what does that do to somebody that is in a secret relationship with a man? He isn't out. He literally does not see a future with this person and yet they.

are so deeply in love that they can't let each other go. And yet now this little spark of something else that he wants is suddenly thrown in his face. Like, what if I want this? Like that makes my relationship with this guy even more impossible. Like what the fuck do I do here? And that's a really intense dilemma that Rachel Reed has sort of shoehorned in very subtly. And I think it's something that's missed in the show, which I think they'll

Silvan (26:49)
Hmm.

Declan (26:51)
regret a little bit because it is something that comes up again. ⁓ So yeah, I think there's a bit of a missed opportunity there to show another sort of conflict within Shane that is happening and to give a little bit more context as to how overwhelming a lot of the stuff in his life is at the moment. And it also explains better the decision for Shane to get together with Rose as well. ⁓ It's sort of like

Silvan (27:18)
Hmm.

Declan (27:20)
segue into justifying that decision. ⁓ So yeah, there's a lot in that little handhold.

Silvan (27:28)
literally just a line and it just yeah it really struck me and I mean who I mean I'm not gonna presume that everyone has felt this way but I'm sure a lot of people who are listening can identify with like when a baby holds your hand or something there's just something in view that that connects and it's like ⁓ maybe I want this and then Hayden says I want you to have a hundred kids so you can feel my pain and I'm like maybe I don't

Maybe I don't want kids then.

Declan (27:58)
Yeah, it's, I think parents like that are so funny. Yeah, feel my pain. Yeah, yeah. Trying to push you into having kids so you're as miserable as they are.

Silvan (28:04)
Like feel my pain, I'm sleep deprived too.

Declan (28:11)
Yeah, I think it's, it's that idea, you know, it's our hard work. Everyone knows kids are hard work. ⁓ parents will often complain about it because it's hard when you're in it, they appreciate the love and the affection that you get from them and how like cute and beautiful they are. like, yeah, it's just that he's just the best friend that he gets to vent to about kids just being fucking hard work. ⁓ but it is a cute little moment between the two.

Silvan (28:41)
You're right, and they are very much positioned as like very close of best friends here, what strikes me here is that they are so different. Taking sexuality out of the equation, they are so, so different.

Declan (28:53)
Yeah, yeah. Hayden is like this guy, like, I can just imagine him coming into my house, like throwing the doors open. Usually everything's quiet. Throwing the doors open. He has free bags slung around on his shoulders. A kid on his back screaming, like, oh my God, you're here. Here you go. Here we go. Let's go. Let's talk constantly for the next one hour. And I'm just going to chat your ear off. And it's so funny because Shane is quite internal.

So he is with his dialogue and his communication and what he thinks and what he feels. ⁓ And while he does engage, I Hayden is sort of the one that just sort of the communication out of him a little bit and takes him out of his head for a few moments. And that's such an interesting dynamic. It's really one of those like opposite the track extrovert meets introvert kind of dynamics. And I just love that.

Silvan (29:45)
love that you say that because for me, I very much on the introvert side and I always tell my friend who's very much an extrovert that he adopted me.

Declan (29:55)
Yeah, that's kind of what happens. You just get taken by this extrovert who runs you around the town and gets you out of your house for longer than an hour.

Silvan (30:04)
⁓

Right, and I'm so thankful because I have gone on trips because of this friend group and this friend specifically. I have gone to events that I would never have dreamed of going to, let alone the claustrophobia of being packed at a festival with like 20,000 people. No, thank you. So I very much am appreciative of all the extroverts that have adopted their introvert friends.

Declan (30:29)
Yes, thank you all for adopting us and getting us to go outside and see the sun at least once a week.

Silvan (30:37)
It's true, I'm so vitamin D deficient. But one thing that I felt the TV show in this chapter got a bit better was when Ilya's watching Shane in that documentary where he's doing the yoga and here we see some of the cottage. And what for me, why it worked better in the TV show is because we could see the visuals and we could see Ilya just

Declan (31:03)
Yeah.

Silvan (31:05)
And more so Connor's story really acted well in this scene where he's just sort of like a little bit grumpy watching this documentary, I don't know what it is, on Shane and be like, whoa, whoa. Like he's just been a little grumpy old man.

Declan (31:18)
Yeah, yeah, it's played a lot funnier in the TV show. You can just see Ilya just, bet you know about it. Whereas in the book, it's not really played up that much. It's more like, you just get the feeling of annoyance from him rather than like reluctant affection and begrudging like, admittance that he finds this guy really hot, which is really funny. But yeah, it's just.

a little detail. It's just been done very well the way they've transitioned it over.

Silvan (31:53)
And speaking of transitions, when we transition into the next chapter, this is where it becomes explicit where they say like they've been hooking up for six years at this point. Now, the TV show makes it really hard to manage the timelines unless you're really paying attention. And I almost feel like you're clocking all the dates in your head.

Declan (32:01)
Yeah.

Silvan (32:13)
Whereas here it's a little bit easier because it goes in chronological order, but also the times are so specifically set out in each chapter. Like it's one of the headings in the chapters. But I still, having read through some of these chapters, didn't realize it's been six years of them hooking up at this point. That feels like a long time.

Declan (32:31)
Yeah, which is

like, that's ridiculous. Like, how can you have like, ⁓ friend, just a rival will benefit for six years and still pretend like your relationship means nothing? Like that's crazy. And I wonder how Ilya views all this because

Ilya is sleeping with other people, Shane isn't. ⁓ I always felt like uncomfortable with that. it's like, I don't know, I think it's because I'm so invested in their relationship that I'm like, how could you do this? Where in Ilya's head, ⁓ it is still hook up. He has very strong feelings for him.

And so he's just like not going to play into that. He doesn't think anything's going to come of it. So he doesn't feel the need to stay loyal. But it just like bothered me. I don't know why. I think it's just because I do value like I value loyalty. I value monogamy when you're in a relationship with somebody, especially long term. So, yeah, I just. It's just a lot of weird thing for me.

Silvan (33:57)
And that's the thing, they're not technically in a relationship. So those boundaries are really blurred. To me they're still hooking up in a way. But I don't know any hookup situationship that has lasted this long.

Declan (34:12)
No. And I think what makes it different is because they're not seeing each other all the time. Like they see each other like it jumps like three months, six months, over a month. like, it's usually like extended timeframes before they hook up again. I think that's literally the only thing that's justifying the sort of this length of time that they're seeing each other because I don't know, as at this point they're like

in constant text communication or is it just like casual

Silvan (34:45)
The texting isn't explicit in the book, at least not from what I've read. I think the TV show makes a use of that as a medium for communication, but I don't see that translated into the book.

Declan (34:59)
No, and I think...

That is a big element of like how they manage to keep each other so separate. Is they're not constantly talking to each other. They're not really building like a dynamic outside of the sex. At least not like directly. It's like they're both afraid to do at this point in time. They're both afraid to like have friendly, fun banter. ⁓ It's usually just reserved for getting ready to hook up and you know.

actually being there and hooking up. So yeah, their relationship's a mess.

Silvan (35:40)
Yeah, and you talked about sort of like Ilya hooking up with other people and women as well. And you can see this start to change, especially in this chapter. But before I go on to that, I wanted to ask you, do you think Ilya has a higher sex drive than Shane? And that's what spurs on his need to sort of, or his want, I should say, to have sex with multiple people in between the times that he and Shane are hooking up? Because like you said, it's

three months, it's six months, it's several several months between when they see each other. So do you think Ilya has a higher sex drive?

Declan (36:16)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's definitely implied that Ilya sort of feels the need to get his rocks off a lot more often than Shane does. ⁓ I think Shane ⁓ is happy to wait for Ilya ⁓ because it's better to keep in mind as well that Ilya doesn't sleep with other men outside of Shane. He sleeps with women, but doesn't sleep with other men. ⁓ And so

Ilya has options. Shane doesn't really have options. Shane is not going to risk another guy. He's just not going to risk it. there is, yeah, it creates a sort of difference between the two, especially in their sex drive. So I don't know if Shane wants it less. I think it's just that he's not able to act death in the same way that Ilya can because Ilya has the benefit of being attracted to women as well. And that relationship or that dynamic is much more acceptable.

⁓ for his image ⁓ because he doesn't sleep with over men. He doesn't at all.

Silvan (37:23)
So do you feel like for Ilya there is a sense of monogamy then, because he's not sleeping with other men. So there's almost this part of him that's exclusive with Shane.

Declan (37:28)
Yeah.

Yeah, he's sort of reserved it for Shane and Shane alone. I would imagine that Ilya would be more willing to risk getting a hookup with a man. I just don't think he would. I just think he reserves it for Shane. And maybe that's a way of him showing his commitment to him in a sense. And yeah, I just. I think that's just where they sort of sit with each other at this point in time. Shane just has to wait with the blue balls and.

Ilya gets to run off and have fun, but not too much fun with man instead. So there you go.

Silvan (38:07)
Well, Shane in his right hand, let's just, you know, it's not the end of the world. And his dildo, and his dildo. I forget that he has that in the book too, but one of the things that comes up in this chapter is that Shane gets invited to Ilya's penthouse. And now in the TV show, it's an actual house house, but here it's a penthouse and it's beautifully described like floor to ceiling windows and all that kind of stuff.

Declan (38:10)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's fair.

Mm-hmm.

Silvan (38:37)
The impression I get from Shane's narrative in part of this chapter was that that was too personal for Shane. Like hooking up or going to hotel rooms and doing it that way was absolutely fine. But going to Ilya's house felt too personal.

Declan (38:54)
Yeah, this is the turning point. This is when, you know, the separation is coming undone, starting to unravel. Up until this point, they aren't messaging each other regularly. They only ever pick up in like designated places that have no personal connection to either of them. This was the whole point in the apartment complex was that Shane didn't need to bring Ilya back to his own place. And this becomes obviously a huge big thing.

It's like a cornerstone of their relationship that they gradually begin opening up their personal space to each other. And that's what kick starts the actual relationship part of their dynamic. And I think this is sort of the beginning of it. When Ilya invites Shane to his place, like his actual home. And then he freaks out.

which interesting.

Silvan (39:52)
Yeah.

Yeah, and even before he freaks out, I want to talk about the sex in this chapter. I've been waiting to speak to you about this because there is this there is this shift, but it feels much like the Vegas sex scene. The start of this feels very cold ish in that Shane shows up like he takes his shoes off like Shane does and Ilya doesn't engage with him in conversation.

You know, he's wearing, I think the gray sweatpants or low rice sweatpants. Like, of course we need to see the V lines. Of course that's going to be like almost what, what Ilya wears when he's meeting them shirtless, of course, but there's no dialogue. sort of let Shane in, turns around and starts walking away towards the bedroom, assuming. And there's a line that says, that Shane says, So he says, the fuck is this? You're not speaking to me anymore.

Just expect me to follow you like a dog.

Declan (40:55)
Hmm.

Silvan (40:56)
And that feels ⁓ reminiscent of Vegas. It feels carried over from Vegas at the start of this.

Declan (41:03)
Yeah, and I think obviously we know now from reading the sort of hidden chapter, the secret chapter that this was a game that Ilya was playing with Shane and doing this and it was a way of getting a reaction out of Shane ⁓ because at that point in time Ilya didn't care what reaction he was getting as long as he was getting something. Whereas this is now Shane sort of going, no, I'm doing this like this is not making me feel good.

like this is not a nice thing now. And all of a sudden Ilya changes tactics when he realizes that Shane isn't really buying this anymore. And I think this is what results in Ilya just going, okay then I'm just going to try to open up maybe a little bit. Maybe just, I don't know, go a different route. Maybe I don't need to fight this so much. Let's give this a try. And there he goes.

Silvan (42:01)
Hmm.

Declan (42:02)
yeah, pretty so.

Silvan (42:05)
Yeah, and you can definitely see this. I'm still not done with the sex scene. We're not done yet. Everyone's like, okay, enough. But I want to talk about the power play in this sex scene because I know we talked about Vegas and we talked about sort of that sub dom sort of dynamic and actually it's not always the dom that has the control here. And what was interesting reading this chapter was we get confirmation that

Declan (42:10)
So do all right, go on.

Mm-hmm.

Silvan (42:34)
Shane very much feels like he's in control or he's got an element of control because he says, he never felt submissive. He loved reducing Rosanoff to whimpers and Russian profanity. So it almost feels like Shane is not just performative, but he's pulling strings. He knows what strings to pull within ear two.

Declan (42:38)
But now.

And again, I think this is another signifier of how their dynamic is beginning to change. ⁓ Ilya thinking that he's leading Shane on like time to wake up and smell the coffee. Like this guy knows how to manipulate the situation now. This isn't working in the way that you probably intended it to.

And I think that Shane now using that power is making Ilya feel really good whenever they're having sex at this point. Like Shane is now aware of what makes Ilya tick and now he's actively feeding into it. And so Ilya is now even further overwhelmed with this guy. He's like, Whoa, it's never like this way anybody like, Holy shit, how does he know me so well? And it just makes the two of them

like gel together so much more. And so it's no wonder that, you know, the dynamic is shifting.

Silvan (43:57)
And for me, the hottest sex scenes in literature, in the books, are when both of them are pulling and pushing. And there's this give and take between them and the pull for power and the knowing what buttons to

And that's what I really enjoyed reading here.

Declan (44:18)
Mmm

Silvan (44:20)
because here we see the shift for Ilya, not so much for Shane. Shane's still expecting the bog standard stuff that they've been doing. I think in this chapter, Shane is expecting to be on all fours and take it and doggy kind of thing. And Ilya changes that, it feels like. And this is where the communication through the sex is so much better in this book than in Game Changers. Because here we see, and it says,

Vosinof never took his eyes off his face, so Shane's face. You see the shift in Ilya in the positions he adopts with Shane, in the way he's holding his gaze, regardless of what they're doing, wanting them to be face to face rather than sort of backwards in a way. And this is what I got. when he says, sweetheart, when Ilya says, sweetheart to Shane, I was like, we're in, this is where we're at.

Declan (45:00)
Thank for your

Yeah.

It's all over now. But it's so interesting that literally a sex position can be used as storytelling. Like this is what I mean by offers need to use their spice properly. They need to use sex properly in their books. Just throwing sex out there with no purpose and no intention behind it. It gets boring. This is not boring. This is communicating.

through sex. Like what is happening here is that Ilya wants to look Shane in the eye and lovingly have sex with him. He wants to make love to him. He doesn't want to fucking. Which is the difference. So there is something more impersonal about doggy style. We just all collectively agreed on that because there's no eye contact. There's no ⁓ monitoring of your partner's pleasure or anything like that. It's not as loving a position you could say. ⁓

whereas this is a lot more intimate. It's a lot more personal and it's a lot more emotive. guess what happens then?

Silvan (46:28)
Well, because I mean, in a way, yes, you're absolutely right. And it serves the story here because then we get this scene in the book as well as the TV show. think it's very, very similar where Ilya is like, you could stay and Shane's like, ⁓ I should stay. And he does, he sort of like, he gets back into bed and he's like, stay the night, you know, I don't have practice early or something like that, for example. And you could see the payoff from.

building that up, like you said.

Declan (47:00)
Yeah, it's no proper intimacy we're dealing with here. It's like comfort, it's cuddling, it's comfort in someone's arms. Like that is not typical hookup behavior. And so there's a shift and Shane knows it now. This is where Shane doesn't do change. It freaks him out. It scares the shit out of him. He doesn't like it.

Silvan (47:27)
Right?

Declan (47:30)
And this change is something that signifies to him a version of events in the future that he doesn't want to have to deal with, which is we're going to try and get into a relationship and it's going to be a huge fucking mess. And he doesn't want that. That scares him to death. And it comes out in his reaction to this and reaction to Elia.

Silvan (47:58)
Yeah, and I'm thinking back to the conversation we had with Neil and when we did our psychology episode and she started talking about core beliefs in cognitive behavioral therapy. And here I get this impression that Shane has this core belief of, don't deserve this because there's a line here where he says, Shane really did like kissing Rosenoff, but this seemed indulgent, almost in a way that he shouldn't be having it or it's too much.

or there's this guilt associated with it. But for me it feels like Shane doesn't deserve this is how I think he thinks as a core belief.

Declan (48:38)
Yeah, that's such an interesting line. ⁓ The idea of indulgence, like what is indulgence? It's partaking in a luxury. It's enjoying something in the most way that you can. like I indulged myself with a box of chocolates. it's so telling that this is how he views

He views Ilya as a luxury. He views Ilya as special thing of this once in a while treat that fulfills a satisfaction and shame. And he is like, no, am I overindulging? Like, deserve this. Like, what does this mean?

no, I'm consuming too much of the of the bad thing. Like what was this going to result in? Like, so yeah, that word choice is actually really good writing. ⁓ there's a lot to be said from it.

Silvan (49:47)
Exactly. And I think what I'm hearing when you say this is there's for Shane, that feels like there's a scarcity to this indulgent. And there's a finite almost resource in this. It's finite. It's not forever. It's not all the time. He only gets bits of it. And that's the bit that feels indulging. And it's funny how you said like indulging in chocolates, because that's where my mind went to as well.

I never really think of receiving pleasure as indulging or receiving love or receiving company as indulging. So it's so interesting to get into the layers of how Shane is thinking. And you're right, this is so much better writing. And I know we are literally stripping it apart and really looking deep. And I think there was a comment to one of our socials saying like,

why you're this it's not that deep kind of thing but it is that deep.

Declan (50:49)
How

dare you? My English teacher would be rolling in her classroom if she heard that. It's always that deep. It's as deep as you want to go. I'll go to the center of the earth if I have to.

Silvan (51:01)
Right.

Yes. Okay. It's not like Tolstoy and stuff. And I get it's not like classic literature, but there is so much layers that you can read into in the same way that people have dissected the TV show, us included, and looked into the symbolism and the imagery and the lighting and the positioning. And there's so much to look at in this book in comparison to the game changes for me.

Declan (51:15)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, 100%. Like Rachel Reed is definitely ⁓ much more experienced as a writer at this point in time. Like I really enjoy the writing in this book. ⁓ And especially the last two books in this series, I think are just really excellent. I think they're just generally good books. But yeah, like little words like that have carry meaning like they're intentional. She could have used any word there if she wanted to, but

She didn't, she chose this one specifically. Maybe she checked synopsis on Google or Word or whatever, but I still think that the use of the word indulgent is so clever. So it is because it tells you so much about change spot process. And it is that deep.

Silvan (52:12)
And it can be as deep as you want it to be. I love that you said that. ⁓ And we finally get ginger ale here. Like I've been waiting for ginger ale. And this is where Elia buys ginger ale for Shane. And he's like, is the ginger ale cold enough? And we get the tuna melt. Finally, we get to tuna melt.

Declan (52:31)
Yeah,

this is the ⁓

Right. So do want to know why all this works? Because it's specific to Shane. These are things that Shane enjoys. And there is that old saying to be seen is to be loved. And what Shane is seeing now is that Elia sees him. He sees his wants, he sees his needs, and he is catering to him specifically because it's love. And that realization, I don't know if he fully comprehends in that way, but

his mind is definitely going, this guy is in love with you. And he has been indulging in what it would be like to be with him in a real sense. And that is in such contradiction with how he doesn't want this to go that it causes like some sort of incongruence within him and

panic attack essentially he just panics because he doesn't know what to do with all these fucking feelings if i was to scribe the sort of bite flight freeze fawn for shane

He is a flight. He flees, he runs. That's his response to danger. And he is feeling the danger at this point.

Silvan (54:02)
And you're right, because he describes this as, this is weird. This is a domestic scene. So this is not what he's used to. And he says, we aren't boyfriends. He knew how to behave around him when they were naked and pressed up against each other, but just hanging out with their clothes on was uncharted territory for Shane. And so there is this domestication. Is that a word? What's the word? I don't know what the word is. Maybe it's a word.

Declan (54:30)
Yeah, I think the math is the question.

Silvan (54:33)
But there is this sort of familiarity now and this settling and this insight. I think that's what I'm trying to think of. There's an insight or a snapshot into what it might be like if they were actually together and all the external things weren't there.

Declan (54:51)
Yeah, it's Shane never needed to worry about picturing this side of things. I think up to this point, Shane has been telling himself all the reasons why this doesn't work and why it can't work, that he has never allowed himself to actually perfectly imagine and picture what it would be like to just be Ilia's boyfriend. And this like doesn't require imagination. It throws it right in his face. And now he can fully picture

what a domestic lifestyle with him could be like. It's the hot sex, getting off your boyfriend's, making you a sandwich. He's giving you your favorite drink. You're relaxed. You're chilled out. You're bantering back and forth. You're just enjoying each other's company. You're a person that is wanted and loved. And what would it be like to have that?

Silvan (55:51)
it pulls Shane out of his comfort zone completely. and I know we talked about the tuna melt specifically when Lizzie was on the podcast and we talked about Dill Pickles on their podcast with Ren and Lizzie and there was this whole other con- you really need to go listen to that conversation, please. I can't repeat it again because no, ⁓ we had this whole conversation about Dill Pickles and it just made me laugh.

that Shane would eat a dill pickle. I don't see Shane eating that. can't.

Declan (56:30)
I hate pickles. think they're terrible. I hate the way everywhere tries to put them on your burger. And I do not return food. But if you hand me a burger when I told you not to put pickles on it, and there's pickles on it, I will return it. Like I'm a pickle hater.

Silvan (56:53)
Now, same, I'm not a pickle fan and I just think it's this side of the world that doesn't revere pickles in the same way. But not to say it's bad, like it is just what your taste is. But one thing that makes me laugh is there's a point and this gives me a bit of a, there's a point where it's described in the chapter where Ilias spits in his hand and uses the saliva as lube. And I'm like, no way is he doing that if he just ate a tuna melt. No way. Hell no.

Declan (57:17)
Yeah.

No,

no, so when I wasn't thinking about that, I can't- no, absolutely not. I don't need to know that. I don't need to picture that. I- no-

Silvan (57:34)
Like, there is no mention of lube, so I'm assuming they're using that as lube. I can't, I can't, that's just disgusting.

Declan (57:43)
I didn't need to picture that. To re-en my day.

Silvan (57:47)
Leave it to me to smut it up or down.

Declan (57:48)
I

fucking hate tuna. I hate it. I hate the smell of it. I hate the taste of it. It's ⁓ disgusting. I hate it. I know you've put that image in my mind of tuna breath. Fucking spit on chain stick. No.

Silvan (58:05)
But it's exactly, not even the breath,

it's the tuna spent. Tuna spent.

Declan (58:09)
Stop. Right, okay, stop. ⁓

Let's take a break.

Silvan (58:23)
Okay, I'm gonna move away from Tula Spit then. ⁓ I still feel like although Shane is receptive to Ilya's advances and this shift, there's still something that isn't sitting with Shane because he still says, but maybe I haven't met the right girl yet. So there's still this inner conflict that I feel in Shane. And then almost in the same page he talks about, no one makes me feel.

like Ilya Rozenov does. And I'm like, good Lord, this boy is so conflicted. He is so conflicted and he doesn't, I'm not sure that he realizes.

Declan (59:04)
Yeah, it's going back to the idea of denial. He really is so far in his denial phase. He just can't picture a world in which Ilija could be his partner and it's causing a contrast between the life that he sees for himself and the life that could be a reality for him instead.

I get the idea he doesn't have a great imagination because he can only picture himself with women. And it's like, babe, I'm sorry, but like, that's not going to happen. You can try, but it's not going to last. You are in love with this guy. Like you're not like infatuated. Like you're you're in love at this point. And I think he is just shying away from that truth.

doesn't want to look at it. He just wants to live in this fantasy where Ilya is just a stopgap for his one true love who is apparently just going to show up and everything will fit exactly right and how he pictured it. Even though deep down he probably knows that's bullshit at this point.

Silvan (1:00:24)
completely agree. And for me, one of the things that was missing that the TV show gets so right is in this scene or in this part of the book, Elia has this phone call from his mother. We don't get that in the book. We get this really beautifully shot scene in the TV show. We've talked about it when we covered the TV show.

Declan (1:00:45)
No.

Silvan (1:00:55)
And I felt like, had I not realized how important that would have been for the story, I would have read through it and not given it a single thought that he gets a phone call from his father. And I feel like that phone call is so important in building Ilya's backstory, but not just his backstory, what he's currently having to deal with, because this is very much going through Shane's emotional turmoil, but Ilya's got so much going on.

that we don't always see in the book and especially in this chapter. And for me, what the TV show did really, really well was this part where...

And Ilya finishes the call with his father and he sort of shakes it off or he puts this mask on or off depending on how you're looking at it and then goes back to Shane and you don't get any of that here.

Declan (1:01:57)
It's...

This is what convinces me that this book is Shane's and that it's primarily Shane's point of view ⁓ because he doesn't see that. He doesn't get to know that Ilya's dad is really unwell and that it's deeply affecting him. ⁓

I think that's why Jacob Tierney and the showrunners choose to add in more scenes in which Ilya's father is present. ⁓ So that you get more signifiers of his decline and how it's affecting Ilya. Like Connor's story acts it very well where you can see the mix of frustration and anger and resentment, but also pity and sadness and compassion.

that Ilya has towards his father and it all plays out perfectly in Connor's story's face. Whereas in the book, it's a bit more, I don't know, nuanced. just, it's not focused on as much or enough, I don't think. Because this is like one of the biggest turning points of the book, of the relationship is Ilya's father eventually passing and Ilya dealing with the complexities of not being there.

Well, he's there in a financial sense and he tries his best, but he isn't physically there for his father. So very complicated. And then to have him in the TV show go back out to Shane only for Shane to leave when he's very vulnerable. That's a kick in the face. So yeah.

Silvan (1:03:30)
Hmm.

Yeah, I agree. And I've said it time and time again, I find Ilya the more layered character in this story. And that's just how I feel. It's not to say that Shane isn't, but what I found that was a little different as well from the TV adaptation or the book to the TV adaptation rather was when we get this scene where they're both sort of nosling and then that leads to that sex scene there.

on the couch. In the TV show, it's Ilya that's sort of laying back, Shane is sort of on his chest, and Ilya's just sort of playing with Shane's hair, and it's a very tender, sweet moment. But it's Shane that sort of initiates something more sexually. I think he touches Ilya's thigh or something like that, and it just sort of progresses from there. It was interesting for me to read that in the book, it's Ilya that does that. Ilya sort of...

Declan (1:04:40)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (1:04:48)
I think grabs at Shane's crotch or something like that. And if I'm wrong, please tell me. But I feel like it says like, Ilya moved his hand to slide up Shane's thigh and cup him, for example. And so it's interesting. I wonder what the purpose of that was, because what's the purpose of Ilya initiating the sex, whereas in the TV show, it's Shane initiating the sex that leads to this emotional climax that they use each other's first names, which then leads to, you know,

Declan (1:04:58)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (1:05:17)
what we know leads to.

Declan (1:05:19)
Yeah, I think it is in the book, it's that sort of parallel of Vegas as well. think Shane is trying to make this turn back into a sex thing because if it's not a sex thing, then it's an emotional thing and emotions were not supposed to be part of this thing. And so this could just be Shane's way of trying to

switch up the relationship back to what it was and instead it turns into this really significant moment for their development. ⁓ Like using the first names again incredibly intimate in this context and sort of backfires on them. Whereas in the book I don't think

⁓ it's a significant for Ilya. have started it. ⁓ I think it's just the opportunity for them to have sex again. But again, more intimacy starts coming out. ⁓ like it's not supposed to happen this way. ⁓ it wasn't supposed to be significant. it was just supposed to be sex again. And it's just more convenient cause you're staying and that's all this is. And then it's obviously not.

It's obviously much more than that and that's when the panic sets in.

Silvan (1:06:46)
Yeah, exactly. And in the margins of where I've annotated, I've written the sex scenes are briefer here in these few chapters, but the intimacy is deeper and longer. And what I found really interesting about when they're on the couch together is there's no penetration. And I thought that was interesting because I think it's the first time, apart from blowjobs right in the beginning, that there's been no penetration. I think they're frotting at this point on the couch.

It's really well written. It's really well written. I I was reading this not in an Uber like last time, but I thought it was interesting how there was a lack of penetration, but still this emotional climax, quite literally.

Declan (1:07:35)
Mm-hmm. Yeah,

Silvan (1:07:37)
And so, yes, the sex scenes are shorter, the intimacy is longer, and you get this climax. And what's your take on how they use each other's first names, or at least Ilya uses Shane's first name first? Because do you know what? I'm going to stop talking. I'm going to let you talk because I have thoughts and I don't want to sully.

your interpretation of it.

Declan (1:08:01)
Okay, so the use of the names in hockey and in sport, a lot of the time guys will refer to themselves or each other by their surnames. I think it goes back to the way that sports is commentated. A lot of the time, you know, commentators will use a player's surname to help identify them rather than their first name. And so

The only time that players will be using their first names with each other is like a mark of friendship or a mark of an important relationship, a strong relationship. And the fact that up until this point, they have been using each other's surnames. It's more impersonal. Anyone will be using it. Anyone would call Rosenoff, Rosenoff, not Ilya. And so

The use of the names in this very intimate setting is a signifier that they no longer view each other as just another player, as just the teammate, as just someone I'm sleeping with. They view it either as a friend, as someone that they're emotionally attached to, as someone that they care about, as someone who matters. That's kind of what it signifies that they matter, that they're important to them. And

That is a shift, another shift in the relationship all within a few pages after six years of basically the same thing.

What happens whenever someone has no idea how to deal with change gets approached with that.

Silvan (1:09:50)
Yeah, and as you were talking, I was thinking of Roman Juliet by Shakespeare, where he says, you know, what's in a name arose by any other name would smell just as sweet. And I'm like, not for Rachel Reed, it isn't. Rachel Reed uses names intentionally, Shakespeare. That's right. We can read Heated Vibes and we can read Shakespeare too. But for me, I really loved hearing your take because, I forgot that

Declan (1:10:04)
Nope.

exactly.

Silvan (1:10:18)
They're in sports teams sometimes and that's what they do. ⁓ And I feel for me, the way he says, Shane, he says, God, Shane, and then he literally comes. It almost felt like for me, he was saying, I love you, but just not in those words because it's such a...

from when I've watched or read in other sort of books not related to this at all, it almost feels like, you know, when you're at the climax of something and you're waiting and there's this disinhibition and you just say what's actually on your mind. And people often will profess like love for each other in these moments where it's like, well, where did that come from? This is what it kind of felt like to me. It's like he's trying to say, love you, but it came out, God, shame.

Declan (1:10:55)
Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, it came out the only way it could come out at that moment in time. But I think you're kind of hitting the nail on the head. It is an expression of love in a sense, like.

The intimacy of using his name can only really mean one thing. And so, yeah, I think you're sort of on the money with that one. Yeah, these two are, they're in it now.

Silvan (1:11:42)
Yeah, because it takes Shane a beat then to say, Ilya, back. He's like, it's like, you know, when someone says, love you for the first time and you're not expecting it and you're like, do I say it back? Do I feel it? I don't know. And then you're like, no, no, no, I'm definitely there. And within a moment, you're like, I love you too. That's what it feels like for me. This is Shane then returning the, I love you by saying, Ilya.

Declan (1:11:52)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it's that hesitation. He knows what it means to be saying this, but he's so caught up in the moment that it just sort of comes out. And I think that is almost like a confession. So it is. And I think Ilya views it as a confession and Shane views it as a confession. And they are both revealing elements of themselves to each other.

Elliot might be prepared for, but Shane isn't prepared for.

Silvan (1:12:40)
and we see this. Like we see Shane almost having this internal panic, like, shit, shit, shit. And essentially he starts withdrawing immediately and getting his clothes and picking up.

it sort of breaks me to see them come so far and then to see them sort of retract. And I know it makes for a better story. Of course we need the conflict, but it's like, you're so close. You're so, close. And then, and I know we've been very critical of Shane from the TV show point of view at this scene. And I think having

Shane's internal monologue in this chapter helps ease some of that.

Declan (1:13:34)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because you understand his reasonings for what he does, whereas in the TV show, he just sort of freaks out and leaves without much explanation. ⁓ He doesn't explain to Ilya, but he also doesn't explain to Ilya in the book, but explains to us, like we understand, like we're sort of, you know, classified for his reasons.

Silvan (1:13:35)
judgment for me.

Declan (1:14:04)
But it doesn't make it any less frustrating that he does it. I see whenever books have this sort of structure, this complex structure. Like I always get halfway through it and I'm like, oh my God, Things are going too well and it's too early in the book. I know something bad is going to happen. And so it fills me with like an anxiety when I'm like reading it. And this, when I first read it, had that exact same effect on me. I was like, oh my God.

Oh no, this is like, this is going too well. I'm not halfway through this book yet. Like, oh no, something is something's going to go to shit at some point. Like it's about to happen. And it does. So it does. get your, you get your mid midpoint conflict, which is difficult as a reader to yourself through. And you just want them to, to get on with their happy ever after.

Silvan (1:15:05)
You do, and you also know that it would just kill the story if they got together too soon.

Declan (1:15:09)
Yeah,

that's basically movie shit.

Silvan (1:15:12)
Right. Like we would get like a three episode season otherwise. ⁓ And it was interesting because I'm listening to an audiobook and it's by Emily Henry and it's I've got my phone here because it's an audiobook. It's You and Me on Vacation. It's also a Netflix movie, which is how I spurred on to reading it. And that feels to me, that book, the way it's written feels a little bit different in that you know there's a conflict, obviously, but it doesn't feel like the conflict is of when.

the conflict is obviously going to happen. And so it was interesting that I'm reading this, but listening to the Emily Henry book. And I don't know if any of our listeners have either read the book or watched the movie even, but the movie is very different. ⁓ the movie not great. But anyway, at least reading the book, felt the pacing felt a little different in that you knew the conflict was coming, but it wasn't an obvious mark when that would happen for me.

Declan (1:15:44)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

⁓ And I think whenever a book struggles is when the buildup for a conflict isn't immediately made clear. Like what's the possible conflict in heat of rivalry? Well, Shane is gay, he's closeted, they're both closeted. ⁓ Shane's in denial. Ilya is ⁓ emotionally withdrawn. ⁓

this is going to cause issues and you know it's going to cause issues. That conflict is naturally set up and it makes sense. It tells the correct story within the book. Whereas sometimes you'll have books and I've ran into quite a few of them where there is no reason why these characters can't just be together. They have like small things.

And so when it comes to the conflict then it feels really artificial and it feels like it doesn't fit. And it's a bit contrived. So it is. And I think the miscommunication trope is always fucking used for this purpose. I really wish it wasn't. I've gone on about this before, but just to drag the point home.

Silvan (1:17:31)
Do it Declan.

Declan (1:17:32)
Just introducing miscommunication for a third act conflict is fucking stupid. Don't do it. It's boring. It's contrived and it just feels fake. It takes you out of the realism and it just adds frustration to the reader and it will feel like a waste of time because you're fangirling your head. They could easily resolve this. Why don't we just resolve it? They are no longer acting like real people. They're acting like book characters who

are stupid. And, you know, I think there is a bit in this series that kind of does something like this, where the conflict is ultimately the conflict that's being set up is not ultimately very consequential. And the real implications

of that conflict are fully explored in the story. whenever we're getting to the third act and it's still like a problem, it's like, why is this still a fucking problem? ⁓ And that kills the pacing of the book. I'll not tell you which one yet, but I think people know what I'm talking about when we had it. But yeah.

Silvan (1:18:45)
I'm sure.

But that miscommunication trope is what really killed the movie, the you and me on vacation movie for me. was like, come on. But it's quite different in the book. And I think that's why in this chapter in the heated rivalry book, we needed to see them get closer. We needed to see them get more intimate. I wonder what it might have felt like to have a chapter.

before or several chapters of them building more of the intimacy up because what Rachel Reed has done is in the same chapter, ramped it right up and then crashed it down. And I wonder, and we needed that. We needed them to build it up because now there's an emotional stake in it. Now there's like, ⁓ shit, yes, okay. But I wonder if it would have felt differently if it had built up over several chapters. What do you think?

Declan (1:19:25)
you

Yeah, 100 % and build up is really important and it's not always easy to do because people can get bored. Whereas if it had been spaced out a little more and you would have got a little bit extra in a previous chapter, Ilya started messaging Shane more and there was more of like a build up. You could have got maybe some a bit more satisfying, which is actually kind of what happens in

TV show like TV show does this the TV show adds more moments of intimacy between the two like that kiss on the stairs we were talking about last week and so whenever Shane flees you're like what are you doing we've been building up to this this is what we've been waiting for and you're fucking leaving what does this mean I think it also helps that you don't have like a in the back your mind of like six years like what the fuck ⁓ so yeah it's better built up

in the show to be knocked down and it makes the scene in the club that we do get down between the two that much more devastating and yeah it's it is what it is.

Silvan (1:20:54)
Totally.

Declan (1:20:55)
Guys, we're actually going to need to leave it here for the time being. ⁓ We didn't realize that we'd be getting into so much content with these chapters, but we really want to delve into the road stuff in proper detail. So we're going to leave that for part four. ⁓ But if you enjoyed this episode, like and subscribe, leave a comment for any questions you have for us ⁓ and share it, enjoy it. ⁓ But on another note, ⁓

Obviously some people have been asking us, you know, what do we plan to do whenever we're done the heated rivalry series? And the answer to that is we're just going to move on to another hockey series. So this is one that I've read before. It's the Pockboy series by Saxton James and Eden Fundley. And so we're going to be continuing that on once we're free all the books in this series. Now we do have a fable.

And in the fable is our book club. We're going through each of the books that we'll then be discussing on the podcast at some point. ⁓ And we're just getting towards the final book now in the series. So we're going to move on then to the Puckboy series after that. For anyone that's not familiar with the Puckboy series, is a and romance hockey series. It centers around different hockey players who are obviously all gay and the sort of hijinks that they get into with their soon to be partners.

It's a lot more humorous than Heated Rivalry. There is less of a serious tone, but the characters are still interesting. They're layered and they have some really interesting dynamics. Especially the first book has some iconic characters on it that you'll grow to love. So yeah, we're really, really excited to move on to that as well. So if that

Sounds good to you then join us on our fable, we'll be moving on to the long gamebook next. So if you're excited for that, join us. We'll of course be discussing it on the podcast too.