WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.050 --> 00:00:07.620 CJ: I've heard a lot of this and I've totally seen it in TikTok 00:00:07.620 --> 00:00:12.820 content where it's like create the curiosity gap by having some upfront 00:00:12.820 --> 00:00:17.299 content that's like, the one tip to sound amazing in your podcast. 00:00:18.509 --> 00:00:22.839 If you don't know me, my name is CJ and we're gonna talk about that, but 00:00:23.435 --> 00:00:26.945 Why you should listen to me is because I've been making podcasts for ages 00:00:26.945 --> 00:00:30.265 and I have 10, 000 listeners and blah, blah, blah, and blah, blah, blah. 00:00:30.265 --> 00:00:32.864 And like, they draw out the whole intro and you're like, just get 00:00:32.865 --> 00:00:34.325 to the point and tell me the tip. 00:00:34.804 --> 00:00:37.585 And then they finally tell you the tip and it's actually like two seconds. 00:00:37.615 --> 00:00:41.105 And then they close like the thing and it's like, okay got it. 00:00:41.124 --> 00:00:45.584 You just want your view times to go up and you don't actually want to add value like 00:00:45.584 --> 00:00:47.484 immediately or as, as much as possible. 00:00:48.329 --> 00:00:51.490 Colin: I think some of those are a little clickbaity in audio, 00:00:51.690 --> 00:00:53.440 whatever a clickbait audio would be. 00:00:54.050 --> 00:00:57.790 The other one that there's somebody I've found on Twitter or YouTube that 00:00:57.910 --> 00:01:02.074 actually is really good at that, where they analyze why some videos don't work. 00:01:02.705 --> 00:01:06.525 like what hooks work and things like that without being click baity. 00:01:06.575 --> 00:01:09.275 So I'll see if I can find it and put it in the show notes, 00:01:09.285 --> 00:01:12.765 but yeah, how's the week going? 00:01:13.178 --> 00:01:15.768 CJ: So we had a pretty crazy weekend. 00:01:15.858 --> 00:01:21.328 We flew out to California for my cousin's wedding, which was Epic. 00:01:21.338 --> 00:01:22.328 It was super fun. 00:01:22.528 --> 00:01:26.568 It was held about an hour South of San Jose. 00:01:26.728 --> 00:01:28.708 And It was beautiful. 00:01:28.708 --> 00:01:30.768 We had tons of fun the day before. 00:01:30.778 --> 00:01:33.888 And then on the day of there's just like tons of dancing, 00:01:33.888 --> 00:01:35.368 connecting with family, hanging out. 00:01:35.468 --> 00:01:37.148 And so yeah, it was a blast. 00:01:37.563 --> 00:01:42.083 It was kind of, it was like definitely very memorable because during the 00:01:42.083 --> 00:01:46.643 ceremony, it was just pouring rain and we're all outside just in like 00:01:46.663 --> 00:01:51.193 ponchos umbrellas getting just absolutely soaked in the rain. 00:01:51.653 --> 00:01:52.883 And it was exciting. 00:01:53.083 --> 00:01:57.423 And we did a lot of like burning the candle at both ends between. 00:01:57.653 --> 00:01:59.183 Trips to the airport at 4 a. 00:01:59.183 --> 00:01:59.433 m. 00:01:59.433 --> 00:02:03.893 and then staying up until one, two in the morning, like, you know, having fun. 00:02:03.893 --> 00:02:07.923 So we definitely are under the weather and recovering, but yeah, 00:02:07.923 --> 00:02:09.153 it's been, it's been a good week. 00:02:09.253 --> 00:02:09.993 It was tons of fun. 00:02:10.738 --> 00:02:11.308 Colin: Nice. 00:02:11.578 --> 00:02:13.178 A little bit of time change in there too. 00:02:14.193 --> 00:02:14.773 CJ: Yes. 00:02:14.803 --> 00:02:15.173 Yeah. 00:02:15.423 --> 00:02:15.863 Like. 00:02:16.163 --> 00:02:18.183 I don't know if we ever were jet lagged because we were just 00:02:18.203 --> 00:02:23.283 awake the entire weekend, but yeah, yeah, it was, it was weird. 00:02:24.293 --> 00:02:24.653 Colin: Yeah. 00:02:24.733 --> 00:02:26.003 I mean, we were talking about it a little bit. 00:02:26.003 --> 00:02:31.433 I've been mostly sticking around home doing things focused on work stuff. 00:02:31.533 --> 00:02:33.033 We talked about conference. 00:02:33.043 --> 00:02:35.873 It's kind of conference season right now. 00:02:36.003 --> 00:02:39.933 I was bummed to miss Stripe sessions, but was able to watch some of that. 00:02:40.453 --> 00:02:42.763 Went to the post con, which I think we talked about. 00:02:43.348 --> 00:02:46.698 Last episode, I guess this is the post post con chat. 00:02:46.758 --> 00:02:47.458 That was fun. 00:02:47.708 --> 00:02:51.318 And yeah, just back to focusing on some projects. 00:02:51.358 --> 00:02:55.948 I've I'm trying to remember what sent me down this rabbit hole, but I've been going 00:02:55.948 --> 00:03:04.078 down, this is like tech adjacent this nostalgia hole of game voice and did you. 00:03:04.158 --> 00:03:04.968 Did you own a Game Boy? 00:03:04.968 --> 00:03:06.028 Did you play Game Boy? 00:03:06.368 --> 00:03:09.358 What's your Nintendo journey if you had one? 00:03:10.463 --> 00:03:11.853 CJ: I never had a game boy. 00:03:11.863 --> 00:03:16.123 I was very jealous of everyone who had one and all of my friends had them. 00:03:16.333 --> 00:03:21.273 I just like never had, never had a game boy the acquired podcast. 00:03:21.343 --> 00:03:24.268 We, I think we were learning about Nintendo. 00:03:24.348 --> 00:03:29.558 So my kids and I, we listened to this like several hours long series of a 00:03:29.598 --> 00:03:34.118 podcast on about Nintendo and a big chunk of that was all about game boy. 00:03:34.378 --> 00:03:38.148 And afterwards they wanted to build like an old school game 00:03:38.148 --> 00:03:41.788 boy with a raspberry pie and just like get into it from scratch. 00:03:41.808 --> 00:03:44.748 But yeah, curious to hear what your, what your rabbit hole is. 00:03:44.828 --> 00:03:48.708 Colin: Yeah, I mean, some of it is that, that, that Raspberry Pi rabbit 00:03:48.708 --> 00:03:53.568 hole, but I now own the Game Boy Color that I had when I was growing up. 00:03:53.618 --> 00:03:58.178 So, I had The original Game Boy which is the big brick. 00:03:58.818 --> 00:04:01.658 There's the Game Boy color that, or I guess, I think probably Game 00:04:01.658 --> 00:04:03.828 Boy pocket might've come out first. 00:04:04.188 --> 00:04:06.308 But the Game Boy color Game Boy pocket. 00:04:06.308 --> 00:04:09.088 So I now own a pocket and a color. 00:04:09.553 --> 00:04:14.053 The color is the same, like, it's the Atomic Purple transparent one that I had. 00:04:14.523 --> 00:04:18.653 And I don't remember what happened to, like, my childhood 00:04:18.663 --> 00:04:19.963 version of any of these things. 00:04:19.963 --> 00:04:23.863 I think we must have either donated them or put them on eBay or something. 00:04:24.373 --> 00:04:27.663 But it is kind of crazy, like, I'm not interested in a, in a 00:04:27.693 --> 00:04:33.163 like flipping mindset in so much as like more of a collector. 00:04:33.303 --> 00:04:36.483 And so I got that Game Boy. 00:04:36.483 --> 00:04:37.903 It's still in the box. 00:04:38.083 --> 00:04:42.753 It has been opened and it's playable and it's got some scratches and stuff. 00:04:42.753 --> 00:04:45.393 So I, I'm not, I, it's nice to have the box. 00:04:45.863 --> 00:04:47.913 I'm not going to keep it in the box. 00:04:48.013 --> 00:04:51.993 But there's this whole world of modding Game Boys. 00:04:52.198 --> 00:04:56.038 And taking the batteries out and putting in rechargeable 00:04:56.038 --> 00:04:58.868 USB C ports and IPS screens. 00:04:59.128 --> 00:05:01.688 Because the Game Boy Color doesn't have a backlight, so you gotta have 00:05:01.688 --> 00:05:05.288 like, a little light, you know, above it, you know, using the little 00:05:05.288 --> 00:05:07.158 USB port and things like that. 00:05:07.558 --> 00:05:10.108 So you're modding it to add those kinds of things. 00:05:10.538 --> 00:05:14.918 And I had seen this on Hacker News, but I found it again, where there was 00:05:14.918 --> 00:05:19.678 a physicist in Germany who built a Game Boy cartridge with Wi Fi in it. 00:05:21.398 --> 00:05:27.988 he is able to stream video like live YouTube videos to the original Game 00:05:27.988 --> 00:05:29.378 Boy, not even the Game Boy Color. 00:05:29.968 --> 00:05:30.878 It's pretty crazy. 00:05:30.878 --> 00:05:34.928 I think the game that he made, he ended up making his own cartridge with 00:05:34.928 --> 00:05:36.958 Wi Fi that lets you search Wikipedia. 00:05:36.988 --> 00:05:40.288 And I mean, it's the slowest way possible to view Wikipedia, but 00:05:40.678 --> 00:05:46.303 ultimately it turns out that not a great device for powering a wifi module. 00:05:46.403 --> 00:05:48.483 And things like that, but we'll put a link to it. 00:05:48.483 --> 00:05:52.043 Cause if you're interested in electronics, like what was 00:05:52.043 --> 00:05:53.843 interesting was that the modern. 00:05:54.378 --> 00:05:58.188 Microcontroller could not keep up with the game boy. 00:05:58.708 --> 00:06:04.028 And there's all sorts of reasons why and how, and how these, like, I guess 00:06:04.268 --> 00:06:08.308 the thing that I'm most excited to just play with these things is that you can't 00:06:08.318 --> 00:06:11.348 open up an iPhone and like change it. 00:06:11.668 --> 00:06:15.308 but with a game boy, like you can open, like I was watching just videos 00:06:15.308 --> 00:06:18.768 of people repairing the cartridges and they're opening them up and looking 00:06:18.768 --> 00:06:22.288 at, you know, what contracts are broken and what traces are broken. 00:06:22.808 --> 00:06:24.728 And it's something that you can still fix. 00:06:24.728 --> 00:06:25.738 It's something you can mod. 00:06:25.738 --> 00:06:26.848 It's something you can change. 00:06:26.848 --> 00:06:30.718 So just a fun little hobby thing, not planning on turning 00:06:30.718 --> 00:06:32.468 it into anything more than that. 00:06:32.468 --> 00:06:36.118 Just kind of collecting a few games, collecting a few of the game boys 00:06:36.118 --> 00:06:38.078 again and, and and playing them. 00:06:38.078 --> 00:06:41.333 Cause I also, you Can't go jump down like the internet rabbit 00:06:41.343 --> 00:06:42.423 hole or anything like that. 00:06:42.423 --> 00:06:45.653 It's just going to be like, you're on this one device doing this one thing. 00:06:47.963 --> 00:06:52.653 CJ: It's, it's really kind of refreshing in a way to have a single 00:06:52.653 --> 00:06:54.513 purpose device like that for playing. 00:06:55.183 --> 00:06:58.943 And also one of the things that I remember learning from that acquired 00:06:58.943 --> 00:07:01.143 podcast was that oftentimes Nintendo. 00:07:01.643 --> 00:07:05.823 In order to keep the price or like the cop, their costs down, they would 00:07:05.833 --> 00:07:09.813 use like chips and things that were older generations just so that they 00:07:09.813 --> 00:07:11.643 could like get the cheapest stuff. 00:07:11.643 --> 00:07:12.853 So it wasn't even like. 00:07:13.448 --> 00:07:16.878 You know, the chip that came out that year or whatever, it was like chips that 00:07:16.878 --> 00:07:20.248 came out like three years before and were no longer even being put in stuff. 00:07:20.578 --> 00:07:23.518 And that was part of the reason too why the original one was, I think 00:07:23.518 --> 00:07:24.998 it's just like black and white, right? 00:07:24.998 --> 00:07:28.778 Instead of having color is because they just got like super cheap. 00:07:30.073 --> 00:07:31.133 Super cheap screens. 00:07:31.583 --> 00:07:35.343 And yeah, I don't know, kind of interesting, definitely fun to, fun 00:07:35.343 --> 00:07:37.553 to talk about and think about a lot. 00:07:37.593 --> 00:07:42.253 I know the kids, I think on their Nintendo switch, they were able to like install 00:07:42.253 --> 00:07:46.393 some game pack that was like a bunch of old game boy games or something. 00:07:46.393 --> 00:07:47.893 And so that was tons of fun. 00:07:47.943 --> 00:07:50.893 And we went down memory lane, just like playing some old school Mario. 00:07:51.303 --> 00:07:52.613 And yeah, the kids. 00:07:52.828 --> 00:07:54.678 The kids are way, way into it for sure. 00:07:54.788 --> 00:07:58.938 And yeah, so Logan like wants to build one with his Raspberry Pi. 00:07:58.938 --> 00:08:03.058 And so he 3d printed like a bunch of the cartridge parts, but 00:08:03.068 --> 00:08:04.578 there's still like a lot missing. 00:08:04.578 --> 00:08:06.378 Like we still need screen. 00:08:06.378 --> 00:08:08.558 We still need power supply and stuff like that. 00:08:08.558 --> 00:08:08.808 But 00:08:08.888 --> 00:08:11.738 Colin: I'll, I'll share some links to some things cause there's, there's the 00:08:11.738 --> 00:08:16.818 pie boy, but I think the pie is not quite maybe the newer ones are more capable, 00:08:16.818 --> 00:08:20.153 but there's, It's a crazy world of things. 00:08:20.153 --> 00:08:24.363 Like there's even this thing called the analog that I'll post in the 00:08:24.393 --> 00:08:28.893 link here, this is like a new product and it runs game boy games 00:08:28.973 --> 00:08:33.973 and this company has like made their own version of the SNES, but it's 00:08:33.973 --> 00:08:36.503 basically an emulation hardware device. 00:08:36.923 --> 00:08:40.493 And so on this thing, you can play game boy games. 00:08:40.713 --> 00:08:44.883 Like with the actual cartridges and someone of course has hacked it so 00:08:44.883 --> 00:08:49.533 that you can run ROMs on it and you can go ideally, you're going to be the 00:08:49.533 --> 00:08:54.383 way that the ROM market works is that you can use these devices to take the 00:08:54.383 --> 00:08:56.903 cartridges you own and dump the ROM. 00:08:57.308 --> 00:08:59.618 And then you legally have your own ROMs. 00:09:00.288 --> 00:09:04.148 Obviously there's an illegal market of every game out there 00:09:04.148 --> 00:09:05.568 that you could probably go get. 00:09:05.618 --> 00:09:08.138 But if you want to support the publishers, right? 00:09:08.138 --> 00:09:11.978 Like if you go buy a Game Boy game today, the Nintendo is not getting a 00:09:11.978 --> 00:09:14.188 cent anymore or the game publisher. 00:09:14.188 --> 00:09:16.388 It's, it's secondhand for the most part. 00:09:16.388 --> 00:09:19.768 So so even switch, what you mentioned is interesting cause. 00:09:20.328 --> 00:09:24.048 Some would argue the Switch is, like, very underpowered as, like, a modern 00:09:24.048 --> 00:09:29.668 console compared to PS5 and Xbox, but they did announce that they're 00:09:29.668 --> 00:09:34.448 releasing, they're gonna be announcing the next console in the next fiscal 00:09:34.448 --> 00:09:38.368 year, so technically that could be anywhere between now and next July. 00:09:38.858 --> 00:09:40.608 But excited to see what that's going to bring. 00:09:40.958 --> 00:09:44.108 I've actually never, I played a Switch for like 10 minutes. 00:09:44.158 --> 00:09:48.708 I don't own one it kind of skipped me over but I think it's a fun one to 00:09:48.708 --> 00:09:50.878 get people into the Nintendo world. 00:09:52.038 --> 00:09:56.558 CJ: Yeah, it's a perfect happy medium for kids that are my age because it's 00:09:56.568 --> 00:09:59.018 not a super, super expensive device. 00:09:59.048 --> 00:10:02.068 And it is small, it's portable. 00:10:02.068 --> 00:10:05.228 It works great on like the airplane, but it also can be plugged in. 00:10:05.238 --> 00:10:07.288 And that's like, that's its whole pitch, right? 00:10:07.298 --> 00:10:11.518 Is that it can be plugged in and used as a console or it can be this portable thing. 00:10:11.548 --> 00:10:13.338 And for us, it works totally great. 00:10:13.358 --> 00:10:16.658 We're, we're considering getting a switch light so they can both play at 00:10:16.658 --> 00:10:18.378 the same time when we're on the airplane. 00:10:18.978 --> 00:10:23.758 With their own devices or whatever, but we like this trip, for example, they just 00:10:23.758 --> 00:10:24.768 played on their phones the whole time. 00:10:24.768 --> 00:10:27.438 And it was, it's like, whatever, you know, like 00:10:27.698 --> 00:10:30.788 Colin: I will say that Nintendo has more creativity in that, where 00:10:30.788 --> 00:10:32.458 they're like, Hey, we have this thing. 00:10:32.788 --> 00:10:36.348 Let's make the pocket and the pocket light and the switch light. 00:10:36.378 --> 00:10:43.143 And if you saw the DS, the very first, Nintendo game and watch Look was like 00:10:43.143 --> 00:10:47.543 a clamshell design with two screens, but they were these, I'm actually not 00:10:47.603 --> 00:10:52.193 sure what they're called, but the screen that have like, they light up little 00:10:52.193 --> 00:10:53.963 elements that are always on the screen. 00:10:53.993 --> 00:10:57.923 So it's like pre-reg game boy pixels. 00:10:58.373 --> 00:11:00.623 But it's the first consult to ever introduced. 00:11:00.653 --> 00:11:01.673 The directional pad. 00:11:02.163 --> 00:11:05.343 And the directional pad has not changed at all since then. 00:11:05.343 --> 00:11:06.153 I mean, now we have. 00:11:06.608 --> 00:11:11.658 You know, sticks and joysticks and stuff like that, but that four corner 00:11:11.658 --> 00:11:13.648 d pad has not changed much since then. 00:11:13.648 --> 00:11:17.458 And that's one where I had one of those, the Donkey Kong Game Watch, 00:11:17.488 --> 00:11:19.198 and I don't know where it went either. 00:11:19.558 --> 00:11:20.558 So we'll see. 00:11:20.608 --> 00:11:24.528 I'm hoping I still have it somewhere, but it may have been lost to time. 00:11:26.063 --> 00:11:29.253 CJ: speaking of old school games, when we went to this wedding, we 00:11:29.253 --> 00:11:32.473 stayed in an Airbnb and in the garage for the Airbnb, they had a 00:11:32.473 --> 00:11:35.123 couple like arcade standup games. 00:11:35.953 --> 00:11:41.793 So they had Pac Man and they also had an old school NBA jams from like 1993. 00:11:42.108 --> 00:11:43.568 It was amazing. 00:11:43.578 --> 00:11:48.568 It was like the four player standup game and we all played it for like hours and 00:11:48.568 --> 00:11:53.688 hours and just like, you know, he's on fire and from downtown, like, just like 00:11:53.698 --> 00:11:58.678 the classics, you know, I just remember having so much fun as a kid playing that. 00:11:59.018 --> 00:12:01.158 It's like only, only like at friends houses. 00:12:01.158 --> 00:12:04.008 Cause we didn't, yeah, we didn't have video games growing up, but it was like 00:12:04.578 --> 00:12:06.308 bringing back all the memories and. 00:12:06.843 --> 00:12:10.163 It was, yeah, it was super, super cool to see the kids enjoy that somehow 00:12:10.163 --> 00:12:14.003 got like really, they're really into like these old school games 00:12:14.053 --> 00:12:17.423 and like, I don't know, they've got their, their new age games too, but 00:12:18.588 --> 00:12:21.368 Colin: I think that's, it's a testament to game mechanics. 00:12:21.368 --> 00:12:25.798 Like if it was a good game, then it probably, it doesn't need to have 00:12:25.798 --> 00:12:28.278 amazing graphics to be good still today. 00:12:28.278 --> 00:12:32.238 It's just, you know, when we see what's possible, if you go to try to build one 00:12:32.238 --> 00:12:35.728 of those modern games today, you're going to find out real fast how hard it is. 00:12:36.018 --> 00:12:40.908 And that's kind of what I've been doing with just like getting into these more, 00:12:40.908 --> 00:12:46.603 you know, retro games, cozy games, the like Stardew Valley type games even to 00:12:46.603 --> 00:12:51.843 some extent like Minecraft or is just like a, it's so popular, but it's obviously 00:12:51.843 --> 00:12:56.433 not the same graphics that you get in some of these amazing new games that we get. 00:12:56.993 --> 00:13:00.833 CJ: So does that flow into the stuff you're doing with unity right now? 00:13:00.833 --> 00:13:02.303 Like, what is that? 00:13:02.393 --> 00:13:02.853 Colin: yeah. 00:13:03.233 --> 00:13:07.303 CJ: So you're working on like building your own stuff and 00:13:07.323 --> 00:13:09.633 connecting it to the new discord SDKs. 00:13:09.833 --> 00:13:10.133 Colin: Yeah. 00:13:10.133 --> 00:13:14.243 So I've been trying to figure out all the different game engines and unity has 00:13:14.243 --> 00:13:18.393 been the first one I'm working on, even though like we have unity games, I'm just 00:13:18.423 --> 00:13:22.183 trying to figure out like, how can we make the developer experience better for 00:13:22.233 --> 00:13:24.383 people building unity games on discord? 00:13:24.933 --> 00:13:29.383 So right now my, my entire unity game is just a cube that spins. 00:13:29.583 --> 00:13:33.523 And then the next step is going to be like multiplayer cubes that spin. 00:13:33.953 --> 00:13:36.423 And maybe then you'll be able to move your cube. 00:13:36.423 --> 00:13:39.403 So I'm slowly like doing literal world building. 00:13:39.873 --> 00:13:44.013 But first was just like getting the communication set up between 00:13:44.473 --> 00:13:47.253 not only unity and discord, but then you also need a backend. 00:13:47.313 --> 00:13:51.373 And so unity has a backend for multiplayer in this one. 00:13:51.373 --> 00:13:54.093 I'm using Coliseus, which is an open source backend. 00:13:54.703 --> 00:13:58.223 And it's just been cool to see, like, there's so many of these, like, you 00:13:58.223 --> 00:14:01.173 know, we know all these dev tools like Twilio and SendGrid and all this. 00:14:01.453 --> 00:14:06.033 There's a lot of multiplayer game backend companies that just do that. 00:14:06.593 --> 00:14:12.043 And so they're doing matchmaking and lobby creation and servers, like to the edge 00:14:12.053 --> 00:14:15.443 for your players so that you can connect, you know, regions and stuff like that. 00:14:15.853 --> 00:14:17.503 So pretty cool stuff. 00:14:17.553 --> 00:14:19.563 Mostly trying to use like the open source thing. 00:14:19.613 --> 00:14:22.423 But it's starting to get into some of the other ones that are out there as well. 00:14:24.013 --> 00:14:24.543 CJ: Nice. 00:14:25.083 --> 00:14:28.753 It's, it's so cool to see just like all the different companies too, 00:14:28.753 --> 00:14:32.943 that are coming out in support of being able to build your own things. 00:14:33.043 --> 00:14:38.253 This sort of ties nicely into talking soon about platform risk and stuff because 00:14:38.263 --> 00:14:42.363 you do definitely, as soon as you build a game that requires like all these third 00:14:42.363 --> 00:14:45.093 party integrations or third party things. 00:14:45.113 --> 00:14:45.333 I don't know. 00:14:45.333 --> 00:14:48.493 I guess like, are these just off the shelf libraries that you integrate or 00:14:48.493 --> 00:14:50.243 do you have to like pay for a service? 00:14:50.253 --> 00:14:52.103 Like, is it, is it like a SAS product or how does that 00:14:52.143 --> 00:14:56.773 Colin: So like Coliseus, I think they offer a paid plan but it, I would 00:14:56.833 --> 00:14:58.713 call it's a lot like sidekick, right? 00:14:58.713 --> 00:15:02.383 Because when you run it on your machine, you hit a local host and you 00:15:02.383 --> 00:15:04.253 can see the UI much like sidekick. 00:15:04.253 --> 00:15:08.653 And when you start a room, the room shows up in the like admin. 00:15:08.653 --> 00:15:12.033 So you can view and you're doing your sessions and like joining 00:15:12.033 --> 00:15:15.203 rooms and who's in each room, reconnecting, things like that. 00:15:15.203 --> 00:15:15.583 So. 00:15:15.943 --> 00:15:20.263 Coliseus is super awesome as like, I would not, I don't know what powers that 00:15:20.263 --> 00:15:23.573 I have not dug into it, but I would not be surprised if it's, you know, this 00:15:23.573 --> 00:15:29.133 like Redis backed you know, JavaScript thing that you can just make calls to. 00:15:29.133 --> 00:15:33.793 And then there's a unity package for it so that from unity, you're able to 00:15:34.193 --> 00:15:39.213 connect to the room and the discord adds another layer of complexity 00:15:39.213 --> 00:15:41.773 is that we need to tell you that someone joins your game, right? 00:15:41.773 --> 00:15:43.723 So someone from discord joined your game. 00:15:43.723 --> 00:15:44.053 Okay. 00:15:44.053 --> 00:15:45.163 And unity, we want to. 00:15:45.523 --> 00:15:50.803 Then say, actually join the game in unity so that you spawn into the world 00:15:50.803 --> 00:15:53.063 or however your game is going to work. 00:15:53.063 --> 00:15:56.893 So there's probably simpler games to make like tic tac toe is 00:15:56.893 --> 00:16:00.383 probably a simpler thing because you're not moving through a world. 00:16:00.523 --> 00:16:05.003 But maybe I'll, maybe I'll play around with something like that, but yeah, I 00:16:05.003 --> 00:16:06.043 mean, those kinds of things are cool. 00:16:06.043 --> 00:16:09.073 Then there's these like really higher end paid for. 00:16:09.343 --> 00:16:10.643 I'm sure AWS has. 00:16:10.973 --> 00:16:15.493 A service in their list of services for this, that you can obviously spend as 00:16:15.493 --> 00:16:18.683 much money as you want, but then you're going to have that lock in, like you were 00:16:18.683 --> 00:16:23.223 talking about and even choosing unity is some cases is going to be some lock in 00:16:23.743 --> 00:16:27.858 because it's, you can't really move your game out of unity once you're in unity. 00:16:29.453 --> 00:16:33.063 CJ: Yeah, that definitely seems like more of like a framework choice too, right? 00:16:33.073 --> 00:16:38.803 Instead of like, I don't know, being beholden to platform. 00:16:39.253 --> 00:16:41.473 Or maybe I, I wonder if I'm misunderstanding this, 00:16:41.473 --> 00:16:42.578 but it's, I, I don't know. 00:16:43.178 --> 00:16:48.498 Assume that when you use unity, you sort of download some SDK, you write a bunch of 00:16:48.498 --> 00:16:52.468 C sharp, and then you can like build and distribute your own game without having 00:16:52.468 --> 00:16:54.328 to like work with unity after that point. 00:16:54.698 --> 00:16:58.748 Colin: I think that's where recent controversies have popped up. 00:16:58.878 --> 00:17:03.028 There's a lot of license, this is like over a year ago, but they had 00:17:03.038 --> 00:17:09.888 updated their licenses and you know, I'm using the free indie, like cannot 00:17:09.888 --> 00:17:11.218 make over a certain amount of money. 00:17:11.538 --> 00:17:14.518 Once you start making over a certain amount of money and I could be getting 00:17:14.518 --> 00:17:19.928 this wrong, I do not work for unity, but there, there are licenses, there are plans 00:17:20.338 --> 00:17:25.873 there, There is a, I'm not sure if it's like a phoning home mechanism or how they 00:17:26.143 --> 00:17:29.273 track this, but there's very much, yeah. 00:17:29.273 --> 00:17:30.813 Unity personal is free. 00:17:31.283 --> 00:17:35.503 Then it looks like you start getting into more tools and things 00:17:35.503 --> 00:17:37.923 that start to cost per month. 00:17:38.613 --> 00:17:43.023 And it gets you the editor cause you can't, I'm sure maybe you 00:17:43.163 --> 00:17:45.963 probably could build a game without the editor if you had just the 00:17:45.963 --> 00:17:48.373 code, but it's going to be painful. 00:17:48.513 --> 00:17:49.783 Like the editor does do a lot. 00:17:52.518 --> 00:17:52.778 CJ: right. 00:17:52.778 --> 00:17:55.748 Well, yeah, that's man, everyone wants their chunk of flesh, huh? 00:17:56.158 --> 00:17:56.708 That's all right. 00:17:56.988 --> 00:17:57.468 I get it. 00:17:57.528 --> 00:17:58.038 I get it. 00:17:58.958 --> 00:18:01.568 Colin: Fufufufu. 00:18:02.048 --> 00:18:08.248 CJ: have gotten back on a D and D kick and Grayson has been doing tons of research 00:18:08.258 --> 00:18:10.158 about how to become like a dungeon master. 00:18:10.618 --> 00:18:16.368 And one of the things that he, so I, I play with them maybe for a few hours, 00:18:16.388 --> 00:18:19.658 every few months just to like, you know, get in, get in a game or whatever. 00:18:20.128 --> 00:18:20.658 And. 00:18:21.248 --> 00:18:24.478 Every time he just gets way, way better at being a DM. 00:18:24.478 --> 00:18:28.828 And I've never played with like a proper group or anything, but on this most recent 00:18:28.828 --> 00:18:35.508 round, he went and used LLMs to describe rooms to help him build out his map. 00:18:35.508 --> 00:18:38.778 Because like we were going to play on the weekend and I only told him 00:18:38.788 --> 00:18:41.318 like, Oh yeah, let's, let's like schedule something on Saturday to play. 00:18:41.318 --> 00:18:43.168 And he was like, Oh my gosh, I have to like prepare the whole 00:18:43.168 --> 00:18:46.513 campaign between like, You know, Wednesday night and Saturday. 00:18:46.513 --> 00:18:49.503 And so he's like, he built out a map that had 30 rooms in it. 00:18:49.813 --> 00:18:53.533 And then he went and used like the Grammarly built in LLM. 00:18:53.533 --> 00:18:58.213 I don't even know like which one it is, but some sort of thing to like describe 00:18:58.213 --> 00:19:02.103 the rooms and then he was rolling dice and using his textbook to like, figure 00:19:02.103 --> 00:19:03.733 out who we were going to battle against. 00:19:04.183 --> 00:19:05.773 And it was tons of fun. 00:19:05.823 --> 00:19:06.113 And. 00:19:07.113 --> 00:19:11.693 Like that sort of inspired my other son to want to start digging into 00:19:11.693 --> 00:19:17.443 like, what if we built like an AI DM or some like AI assisted features 00:19:17.443 --> 00:19:25.923 for DMing where like they would just help you like flesh out the campaign. 00:19:25.923 --> 00:19:29.633 Cause at this point they want to pick a few things and like customize and 00:19:29.643 --> 00:19:31.013 be creative in like certain ways. 00:19:31.013 --> 00:19:33.493 But they also They want it to be super easy. 00:19:33.493 --> 00:19:36.783 And so one example is they had two friends come over one day to play. 00:19:36.793 --> 00:19:38.943 And those two friends had never created a character. 00:19:39.423 --> 00:19:42.143 And so they're like, Oh, no, no, I have to like sit down and it's going 00:19:42.143 --> 00:19:45.203 to take me like four hours to write out the whole backstory of the character. 00:19:45.203 --> 00:19:46.913 And they're doing this all in like pen and paper. 00:19:47.323 --> 00:19:51.868 And so I'm like, Oh, man, Would be nice if you could just say like, Hey, 00:19:51.878 --> 00:19:53.458 new friend who wants to play this? 00:19:53.458 --> 00:19:56.158 Like, let's just generate a new character for you. 00:19:56.158 --> 00:19:59.138 And like, you can use that for a couple of days and then the more 00:19:59.138 --> 00:20:01.588 you get into it, then you can start like customizing your stuff. 00:20:01.588 --> 00:20:06.238 So yeah, they want to build these like AI tools, which is really wild. 00:20:06.528 --> 00:20:10.008 And then they'll go and ask like, Go and ask Chachi VT. 00:20:10.018 --> 00:20:12.138 How would I build a AIDM? 00:20:12.168 --> 00:20:16.208 And then Chachi VT tells him like, step by step, like, here's how you would do it. 00:20:16.208 --> 00:20:18.338 And like, Oh, there's no LLM. 00:20:18.348 --> 00:20:23.158 That's, you know perfectly going to work for D and D five E or whatever. 00:20:23.158 --> 00:20:26.108 So you'll have to like fine tune it and train it this way and whatever. 00:20:26.108 --> 00:20:29.538 I'm like my nine year old's coming in asking me how to like fine tune an 00:20:29.568 --> 00:20:31.558 LLM so that it plays D and D with him. 00:20:31.558 --> 00:20:34.798 I'm like, this is a wild, wild time to be alive. 00:20:35.428 --> 00:20:39.878 Colin: I don't know what generation they fall into, but I was listening to another 00:20:39.888 --> 00:20:44.488 podcast where they were talking about how like very much we, we were the youngest 00:20:44.488 --> 00:20:48.678 users of the internet when it first came out and your kids are the youngest 00:20:48.678 --> 00:20:51.728 users of AI as it's kind of coming up. 00:20:51.728 --> 00:20:54.558 And so like gen alpha is also kind of being teased as like 00:20:54.558 --> 00:20:57.458 gen AI where they will not know. 00:20:57.788 --> 00:21:00.718 anything but a world that had these tools. 00:21:01.198 --> 00:21:04.718 What you're talking about also gets into the controversies around wizards of the 00:21:04.718 --> 00:21:10.838 coast and D and D, which is should there be a model trained on all D and D stuff? 00:21:10.968 --> 00:21:14.438 And if so, who has the license to do that? 00:21:14.878 --> 00:21:19.378 Arguably wizards will sue anyone out of existence that, that uses it. 00:21:19.378 --> 00:21:25.378 There is the SRD, which is the open source version of like, and it's like a subset. 00:21:25.838 --> 00:21:30.298 It's like, you know, Ranger, Wizard, and it's like an actual PDF or 00:21:30.298 --> 00:21:32.408 something that could be fed to an LLM. 00:21:32.978 --> 00:21:36.168 Obviously there's PDFs and stuff of the books out there, and 00:21:36.168 --> 00:21:38.348 there's lots of homebrew content. 00:21:38.758 --> 00:21:42.268 I imagine that there's they are working on something like this. 00:21:42.368 --> 00:21:46.748 They, they issued a statement about how their stance on using 00:21:46.838 --> 00:21:48.848 AI generated art recently. 00:21:49.388 --> 00:21:53.438 And it was a non statement of like, we're going to be giving you an update 00:21:53.438 --> 00:21:55.158 on our statement about our stance. 00:21:55.478 --> 00:21:57.988 And everyone's like the fact that this wasn't a we aren't going to 00:21:57.988 --> 00:21:59.928 use AI art is a little troubling. 00:22:00.408 --> 00:22:06.558 You know, because that's still one of those things where arguably do we want a 00:22:06.558 --> 00:22:08.708 world where it's completely generated art? 00:22:08.718 --> 00:22:11.558 Like, a lot of people buy the books just for the art. 00:22:11.668 --> 00:22:14.688 But if you're trying to play the game and you've never played before, I 00:22:14.688 --> 00:22:18.758 think what you're talking about with like a pre gen character is great and 00:22:18.878 --> 00:22:20.508 you can customize a little bit in AI. 00:22:21.158 --> 00:22:23.888 See if you like it and you're going to start to realize like, Oh, I 00:22:23.888 --> 00:22:25.208 want to make my own character. 00:22:25.218 --> 00:22:26.978 Cause there, there's a lot of fun in that. 00:22:26.978 --> 00:22:30.618 I, I wouldn't want AI to take that away from me, but if I'm just 00:22:30.618 --> 00:22:33.328 starting, get me started faster. 00:22:34.453 --> 00:22:34.813 CJ: Yeah. 00:22:34.893 --> 00:22:38.563 The other, the other side of this is that when people want to start trying 00:22:38.743 --> 00:22:43.503 out playing and they don't know somebody who's a DM, like they need to learn 00:22:43.513 --> 00:22:48.033 so much just to like cover the ground of like, what do all these different 00:22:48.033 --> 00:22:50.033 things mean in order to get started. 00:22:50.043 --> 00:22:53.813 Whereas like, if you were just like, Hey, me and my friend want to learn how 00:22:53.813 --> 00:22:56.543 to play DND, let's play with an AI DM. 00:22:56.573 --> 00:23:02.318 And then like, if that goes great and we like it and it's fun, then At some point 00:23:02.338 --> 00:23:05.648 we can like become our own AI assisted DM. 00:23:05.658 --> 00:23:10.008 And then if we want to do like the entire thing ourselves and like design every 00:23:10.008 --> 00:23:13.758 single piece of it and you know, extra stuff that's on the side, then cool. 00:23:13.788 --> 00:23:14.048 Right. 00:23:14.058 --> 00:23:17.058 Like it can expand into that, but it's like yeah. 00:23:17.058 --> 00:23:20.638 Decreasing the barrier to entry to play without, I don't know. 00:23:21.598 --> 00:23:25.678 Colin: I could see it similarly how we use it in day to day programming. 00:23:25.688 --> 00:23:28.048 Like I still know what I'm trying to do. 00:23:28.058 --> 00:23:32.168 So add some like, help me necessarily do it for me. 00:23:32.398 --> 00:23:35.848 Or if you're going to do it for me, I mean, I've seen people say like chat, 00:23:35.848 --> 00:23:40.548 you would do, you are the DM now run this game for us, which is different. 00:23:40.988 --> 00:23:43.908 But I could see like, okay, now I need just a description for a 00:23:43.928 --> 00:23:45.638 new world or something like that. 00:23:46.058 --> 00:23:46.868 That could help. 00:23:46.968 --> 00:23:49.403 Cause yeah, being a DM is a whole other thing. 00:23:51.668 --> 00:23:52.208 CJ: Totally. 00:23:52.333 --> 00:23:53.173 Colin: for your kids to have 00:23:54.998 --> 00:23:55.318 CJ: Yeah. 00:23:55.608 --> 00:23:59.298 He, the, the, the amount of planning that he put into it was pretty wild 00:23:59.308 --> 00:24:02.848 in the fact that he had maps and like a whole bunch of stuff that I was not 00:24:02.848 --> 00:24:07.158 expecting and enemies and whatever, like the rooms were really intricate 00:24:07.158 --> 00:24:11.558 and elaborate and he had like some long monologues about like what the story 00:24:11.558 --> 00:24:12.808 was, what was happening in the story. 00:24:12.808 --> 00:24:14.048 I was like, this is so sick. 00:24:14.048 --> 00:24:14.268 Like, 00:24:14.283 --> 00:24:16.253 Colin: the kids are the kids are going to be fine. 00:24:17.278 --> 00:24:18.308 CJ: Yeah, yeah yeah. 00:24:18.308 --> 00:24:24.588 So platform risk we're building a bunch of integrations at Kraftwerk with different 00:24:24.588 --> 00:24:28.838 third parties and man, it's starting to hurt a little bit because these third 00:24:28.838 --> 00:24:33.208 parties are just not keeping their APIs running as smoothly as we'd like. 00:24:33.208 --> 00:24:33.898 So we've got. 00:24:34.383 --> 00:24:35.893 Degraded messaging. 00:24:35.893 --> 00:24:39.953 We've got degraded integrations with our like timesheet provider. 00:24:40.393 --> 00:24:45.053 Send grid is like not perfectly delivering to all the different domains. 00:24:45.053 --> 00:24:49.783 And it's just been like a tough week with like all of the dependencies 00:24:49.783 --> 00:24:50.983 that we have on third parties. 00:24:50.983 --> 00:24:56.853 And yeah, I mean, back to that, that build versus buy, we can't build all of this. 00:24:57.683 --> 00:25:02.228 And so it's like, we've got to depend on them at least until we, You know, 00:25:02.568 --> 00:25:05.588 have the time and the engineering resources to build some of it. 00:25:05.588 --> 00:25:07.028 But yeah, it's, it's tough. 00:25:07.058 --> 00:25:12.138 And I don't know the answer and it's tough when you're, you have certain 00:25:12.138 --> 00:25:16.818 processes and you need to run the business and you're like, how do I prioritize? 00:25:16.818 --> 00:25:19.748 Do I want to build a feature that's like going to move the business forward? 00:25:19.748 --> 00:25:23.298 Or do I want to build a feature that this third party already has in order 00:25:23.298 --> 00:25:25.038 to like replace the third party? 00:25:25.038 --> 00:25:27.508 Because it's just like not dependable. 00:25:28.978 --> 00:25:30.258 And yeah, I don't know. 00:25:30.388 --> 00:25:31.368 It's it's rough. 00:25:31.803 --> 00:25:34.323 Colin: Does that mean that you're having to build things 00:25:34.323 --> 00:25:36.383 to monitor these services more? 00:25:36.383 --> 00:25:39.013 Or are you guys just hoping that they go through? 00:25:40.058 --> 00:25:44.088 CJ: We use a century shout out century. 00:25:44.098 --> 00:25:49.368 If you want to spots of the show we use century and in, so in the web hooks 00:25:49.368 --> 00:25:53.108 infrastructure, so in the web hooks talk that you guys gave shout out, or yeah, 00:25:53.488 --> 00:25:56.528 shameless plug for RailsConf 2024 or 00:25:56.633 --> 00:25:58.103 Colin: Well, we'll talk about that in a second. 00:25:58.958 --> 00:25:59.928 CJ: 2023 tech. 00:25:59.958 --> 00:26:00.108 Oh yeah. 00:26:00.108 --> 00:26:00.318 Yeah. 00:26:00.318 --> 00:26:00.758 Yeah. 00:26:01.448 --> 00:26:04.768 So in the web hook, like in all of our web hook processors in the 00:26:04.778 --> 00:26:08.228 background job for every single third party, we have a process method that 00:26:08.228 --> 00:26:10.498 says like, try to process the thing. 00:26:10.698 --> 00:26:15.378 If it fails, save off the processing error exception into the web hook object 00:26:15.378 --> 00:26:17.738 in the database and report to century. 00:26:17.933 --> 00:26:18.283 Colin: Okay. 00:26:18.598 --> 00:26:21.318 CJ: So anytime any of the third parties are failing, then we start 00:26:21.318 --> 00:26:25.998 to get annoyed, like alerted by century, but it's centuries noisy and, 00:26:26.073 --> 00:26:28.263 Colin: I was going to say, but so have you started writing 00:26:28.263 --> 00:26:30.433 code to handle their failures? 00:26:30.853 --> 00:26:36.893 and like restore type stuff, like, you know, even if it's just wait and send 00:26:36.893 --> 00:26:42.213 again, or we started getting into the, how do we know that someone's down 00:26:42.213 --> 00:26:44.023 before they tell us that they're down? 00:26:44.143 --> 00:26:44.543 Right. 00:26:44.593 --> 00:26:47.823 That becomes more work for sure. 00:26:48.073 --> 00:26:48.523 CJ: Yes. 00:26:49.778 --> 00:26:53.848 Yeah, we have so the one of the things that I love about the way that we 00:26:53.968 --> 00:26:58.368 are working with webhooks is that they always have a reprocess feature. 00:26:58.378 --> 00:27:01.788 So like, we don't have to wait for the third party to send it again. 00:27:02.218 --> 00:27:03.258 We already have the data. 00:27:03.258 --> 00:27:05.648 We just take the entire payload stuff in the database. 00:27:06.808 --> 00:27:10.288 Our webhooks table is going to become insanely massive and we 00:27:10.288 --> 00:27:12.118 can go and like archive stuff. 00:27:12.118 --> 00:27:16.698 That's really, really old, but we never get rid of anything basically. 00:27:16.708 --> 00:27:18.708 And we can always go back and reprocess it. 00:27:18.718 --> 00:27:21.488 If there was a bug on our side, or if there was a bug on their side 00:27:21.878 --> 00:27:26.088 many times in the webhook, well, depending on the third parties, gosh, 00:27:26.098 --> 00:27:28.848 like sometimes they don't send us everything we need in the webhook event. 00:27:29.228 --> 00:27:32.628 And so we end up turning around and making a get request to their API anyways. 00:27:33.048 --> 00:27:33.698 And so. 00:27:33.913 --> 00:27:37.093 In one of these cases, the webhooks coming in fine, but it 00:27:37.093 --> 00:27:38.273 doesn't have everything we need. 00:27:38.273 --> 00:27:41.103 So we turn around and say like, you said there's a new message. 00:27:41.413 --> 00:27:42.583 Can we have that message? 00:27:42.603 --> 00:27:44.913 And they say, no, here's a 500 instead. 00:27:44.913 --> 00:27:45.963 It's like, come on. 00:27:45.963 --> 00:27:48.463 Like we need yeah, we need our message. 00:27:48.903 --> 00:27:49.413 So. 00:27:50.018 --> 00:27:51.698 Yeah, in those cases, it's just like a button. 00:27:51.838 --> 00:27:56.028 We have a button in admin to reprocess, or we can in batch, just say like, 00:27:56.028 --> 00:28:00.078 go through all the web hooks that are from this source that have failed 00:28:00.278 --> 00:28:03.958 and run the reprocess command, and then it'll just kick off background 00:28:03.968 --> 00:28:08.028 jobs for all of those that will go and chunk back through things. 00:28:08.128 --> 00:28:11.708 But yeah, it's definitely one of those, like, we know you're down before, 00:28:11.708 --> 00:28:13.388 you know, you're down yesterday. 00:28:13.388 --> 00:28:16.648 It's like going to their status page, everything looks green and dandy. 00:28:16.658 --> 00:28:17.698 I'm like, actually, no, 00:28:18.068 --> 00:28:18.378 Colin: Yeah 00:28:18.868 --> 00:28:20.528 CJ: your main endpoint is down. 00:28:21.378 --> 00:28:26.288 Colin: Yeah, troubleshooting across the web is, can be a challenge, right? 00:28:26.308 --> 00:28:30.908 So, like, thinking, you don't necessarily want to have a backup 00:28:30.908 --> 00:28:34.438 service because, I mean, for email, you could maybe pull it off. 00:28:34.448 --> 00:28:38.768 For some of these things, you can't have more than one, even 00:28:38.768 --> 00:28:40.108 if your code is written that way. 00:28:40.108 --> 00:28:44.108 But, yeah, I mean, I guess just figuring out, like, are these urgent 00:28:44.108 --> 00:28:47.008 things and need to be recovered? 00:28:47.008 --> 00:28:50.673 Or are they Whenever they happen, it's fine type of things. 00:28:50.673 --> 00:28:53.083 And you guys deal with a lot of scheduling, right? 00:28:53.083 --> 00:28:56.193 And pushing things out and someone needs to reply to 00:28:56.193 --> 00:28:57.793 something or show up somewhere. 00:28:57.793 --> 00:29:00.613 So a lot of that stuff, you want it to work. 00:29:00.613 --> 00:29:07.023 And I do sometimes Marvel at like, sometimes I'll pull up Uber or Lyft and 00:29:07.023 --> 00:29:10.693 be like, okay, why isn't it telling me who who's coming to me in the next minute? 00:29:10.733 --> 00:29:13.013 I have to wait a minute to see who's my, who my driver is. 00:29:13.473 --> 00:29:14.983 It's probably because they don't know either. 00:29:16.078 --> 00:29:16.488 CJ: Yeah. 00:29:16.698 --> 00:29:17.118 Yeah. 00:29:17.178 --> 00:29:18.638 They're like, we found your driver. 00:29:18.638 --> 00:29:19.498 They're on their way. 00:29:19.538 --> 00:29:20.138 Wink, wink. 00:29:20.608 --> 00:29:21.628 It's like, yeah, you don't even 00:29:21.888 --> 00:29:24.958 Colin: we don't even know if they have a car, but we'll send them over. 00:29:24.988 --> 00:29:29.578 So yeah, I mean those kinds of things It's still marvel that it works, you know 00:29:29.618 --> 00:29:36.888 every time and obviously huge huge teams behind all of that, but Interesting. 00:29:37.098 --> 00:29:41.048 Yeah, I mean You and I go back and forth on this whole, you know, 00:29:41.068 --> 00:29:43.328 integrate all the things all the time. 00:29:43.328 --> 00:29:46.518 And it's, it, it's a sword that cuts both ways. 00:29:47.638 --> 00:29:48.068 CJ: Yes. 00:29:48.468 --> 00:29:54.718 Yeah, I think, I don't know, at least two of the third parties that are failing 00:29:54.718 --> 00:29:56.468 right now are on the way out the door. 00:29:56.518 --> 00:30:00.608 Like we're just like as quickly as possible, just like building what we're 00:30:00.608 --> 00:30:03.848 using from them and closing the gap. 00:30:03.878 --> 00:30:08.408 We're closing it fast and they will not, not be part of our stack 00:30:08.628 --> 00:30:09.078 Colin: yeah. 00:30:09.148 --> 00:30:11.218 Do you still listen to bootstrapped web? 00:30:12.698 --> 00:30:13.028 CJ: yeah. 00:30:13.058 --> 00:30:16.008 Colin: listened to, I don't know if it was the most recent one, but they 00:30:16.008 --> 00:30:22.008 were discussing this around Jordan's newer pivot around like, there's all 00:30:22.008 --> 00:30:25.968 these cool AI companies, but they tend to be like two engineers in YC with no 00:30:25.968 --> 00:30:31.448 marketing chops and they're competing on tech only and they have no sales. 00:30:31.783 --> 00:30:37.633 No marketing, no, no business, you know practicum of what to do and how 00:30:37.633 --> 00:30:39.103 to solve like a real customer problem. 00:30:39.113 --> 00:30:41.063 Like they're solving really cool tech problems. 00:30:41.103 --> 00:30:44.313 And it was interesting to me when they were talking about how, like, they're 00:30:44.313 --> 00:30:49.613 going to go after a market that is not tech savvy and give them these tools. 00:30:49.623 --> 00:30:51.148 Some of them sound very similar to what you're doing. 00:30:51.258 --> 00:30:53.388 You guys actually would not be surprised. 00:30:53.418 --> 00:30:55.518 They mentioned being referred to a painting company. 00:30:55.518 --> 00:30:59.268 It would not be surprised if it was you guys but that they're 00:30:59.548 --> 00:31:01.138 just thinking of like, okay, cool. 00:31:01.138 --> 00:31:03.888 We're not going to go build that whole thing from scratch. 00:31:04.128 --> 00:31:06.398 We're going to use their API, but make it in a way that when they 00:31:06.398 --> 00:31:10.388 fail, or if they fail, that we swap them out for somebody else, because 00:31:10.408 --> 00:31:11.733 those things are going to be. 00:31:11.833 --> 00:31:13.173 Be like a race to the bottom. 00:31:13.173 --> 00:31:17.303 And I think SendGrid in the early days was awesome because it was 00:31:17.303 --> 00:31:22.523 modern and new, but now SendGrid is, there's a million options, right? 00:31:22.533 --> 00:31:26.733 And we can unfortunately just swap out, you know, SMT is easy to 00:31:26.733 --> 00:31:28.583 swap out if, if you're using that. 00:31:28.603 --> 00:31:31.743 So it's a, it's an interesting thing to think through. 00:31:32.868 --> 00:31:33.358 CJ: Totally. 00:31:33.378 --> 00:31:33.558 Yeah. 00:31:33.558 --> 00:31:39.968 In terms of commoditized APIs, our AI integrations are the ones that 00:31:39.968 --> 00:31:43.578 are most commoditized and like we built them in a way that is so 00:31:43.578 --> 00:31:46.928 hot swappable that it is literally just like, go in, change a symbol. 00:31:47.178 --> 00:31:49.798 And now it's like going to Claude, change another symbol. 00:31:49.798 --> 00:31:51.288 And now it's going back to GPT four. 00:31:51.298 --> 00:31:56.578 You know, it's like the, yeah, so yeah, I need to go. 00:31:56.848 --> 00:31:59.668 Write this down and or talk about it. 00:31:59.673 --> 00:32:04.788 But we have like an AI service that has a bunch of methods that are sort of generic. 00:32:04.788 --> 00:32:07.758 So you can say like, I wanna generate a completion, or I wanna do a chat, 00:32:07.763 --> 00:32:11.718 or I wanna do a I, I wanna do like a vision task or something like that. 00:32:11.723 --> 00:32:12.918 And so we have a handful. 00:32:13.368 --> 00:32:16.893 And then those all have system prompts that use like h html, ERB. 00:32:19.043 --> 00:32:22.433 Or text CRB so that we can like inject whatever we want. 00:32:22.823 --> 00:32:27.863 And then each of those just are like, it's instantiated with a provider symbol 00:32:27.873 --> 00:32:31.753 that will like look up, okay, is this going to be, you know, sent to open AI? 00:32:31.773 --> 00:32:33.033 If so, there's an adapter. 00:32:33.323 --> 00:32:35.663 So there's like an open AI adapter that will like call the 00:32:35.663 --> 00:32:37.163 open AI client under the hood. 00:32:37.763 --> 00:32:40.703 And do the completion or the vision task or the, whatever. 00:32:40.933 --> 00:32:45.053 And then we have a like a clod adapter and we have a, whatever I think 00:32:45.053 --> 00:32:48.023 we have a deep mind or something for our transcription service. 00:32:48.483 --> 00:32:51.073 So then you just have all these adapters that all conform to the 00:32:51.073 --> 00:32:55.353 same, like interface that the AI, like the top level AI service follows. 00:32:55.383 --> 00:32:58.943 And then, yeah, it makes it super hot swappable because I feel 00:32:58.943 --> 00:33:00.233 like every time we turn around. 00:33:00.623 --> 00:33:02.663 They're like the horse race is changing, right? 00:33:02.663 --> 00:33:05.063 Like who's in the lead, who has the better model, who has like the more 00:33:05.063 --> 00:33:08.233 performant thing, who's faster, who's more reliable, who's cheaper. 00:33:08.513 --> 00:33:12.243 And so being able to like, not only swap the model out, but swap the provider and 00:33:12.243 --> 00:33:15.103 their API out is, has been super cool. 00:33:15.333 --> 00:33:19.043 So I don't know, I really want to like run our own stuff, like 00:33:19.313 --> 00:33:24.133 use Olama, set up our own service where we can run our own things. 00:33:24.133 --> 00:33:29.463 But I still feel like the tooling isn't quite there yet to a level of 00:33:30.133 --> 00:33:32.053 bare minimum DevOps that I would like. 00:33:32.303 --> 00:33:32.563 Right. 00:33:32.563 --> 00:33:33.703 So like, yeah. 00:33:33.713 --> 00:33:33.993 Okay. 00:33:33.993 --> 00:33:35.023 You just spin up a. 00:33:35.608 --> 00:33:40.388 A render service or something that's like, okay, now run my H one hundred or 00:33:40.398 --> 00:33:43.648 I don't know, for inference, you don't need something that crazy, but like, just 00:33:43.658 --> 00:33:46.638 spin up a render box that can run Olama. 00:33:46.738 --> 00:33:51.028 And maybe the, maybe the limitation is that we need to download, you know, 00:33:51.698 --> 00:33:55.318 five to 10 gig model onto the machine. 00:33:55.338 --> 00:33:59.998 And oftentimes I don't remember, I think the boxes that we're running on 00:33:59.998 --> 00:34:01.788 are like five, 12 Meg or something. 00:34:02.088 --> 00:34:05.538 So like even just having the space for it would be interesting, but. 00:34:06.033 --> 00:34:09.283 Yeah, have you had a chance to play with Olama yet locally? 00:34:09.453 --> 00:34:12.883 Colin: I haven't I've been thinking, I haven't really played with a lot 00:34:12.883 --> 00:34:14.913 of the AIs or anything like that. 00:34:15.003 --> 00:34:19.263 I was actually looking Learn with Jason, Jason Langsdorf has a like 00:34:19.783 --> 00:34:23.703 builder challenge that is due on Monday and I was like, Thinking 00:34:23.703 --> 00:34:24.913 about playing with it this weekend. 00:34:25.253 --> 00:34:30.143 And they're, they're doing a challenge on using Astra DB and 00:34:30.153 --> 00:34:35.453 some AI to build something that is AI, that is not a chat bot. 00:34:36.083 --> 00:34:40.283 So, but it has to be open source has to be like a prototype and they're 00:34:40.283 --> 00:34:44.753 doing it to, you know, it's, they do their like four devs, one app series. 00:34:45.073 --> 00:34:48.833 So I think that must be the next one that they're going to show off what they built. 00:34:49.183 --> 00:34:50.743 So they're just trying to get community. 00:34:51.033 --> 00:34:53.883 Folks to participate and it's pretty cool model. 00:34:53.893 --> 00:34:57.223 Cause then they have the company that releases that database sponsoring 00:34:57.223 --> 00:35:00.813 that video which is a really smart way of creating content that's 00:35:00.823 --> 00:35:04.563 sponsored and still getting to code and not just have to talk about it. 00:35:06.068 --> 00:35:06.558 CJ: Totally. 00:35:06.648 --> 00:35:12.948 I think that is a great idea and it feels like, Hey, you know, all these 00:35:12.948 --> 00:35:18.848 devs, we have this new tool called an LLM or whatever, and I think a lot of 00:35:18.858 --> 00:35:25.868 people don't yet know what it will be used for, and so there's a lot of ideas 00:35:25.868 --> 00:35:31.298 around, you know, text analysis and text generation and helping you sort of 00:35:31.298 --> 00:35:33.908 distill stuff and understand text better. 00:35:33.938 --> 00:35:38.763 But beyond that, I feel like people are still like, In this stage of like 00:35:38.773 --> 00:35:40.373 just exploring and playing around. 00:35:40.383 --> 00:35:43.713 And a lot of these hackathons are awesome because it's a chance for you to just 00:35:43.713 --> 00:35:45.643 kind of like have fun and mess around and, 00:35:46.048 --> 00:35:49.348 Colin: almost all hackathons seem to be AI hackathons right 00:35:49.348 --> 00:35:51.258 now, though, like all of them. 00:35:51.298 --> 00:35:56.678 So Anyway, speaking of events, how do we feel about RailsConf? 00:35:56.708 --> 00:35:58.398 How do we feel about Rails? 00:35:58.788 --> 00:36:00.278 What do we think's going on? 00:36:00.388 --> 00:36:01.928 What's what's even happening here? 00:36:03.123 --> 00:36:05.623 CJ: well, first of all, let's start with a bunch of FOMO. 00:36:06.333 --> 00:36:09.373 The, the calendar did not line up this year to make it to rails conf. 00:36:10.003 --> 00:36:12.863 And yeah, all, all of our homies are posting about it on 00:36:12.863 --> 00:36:14.523 Twitter and I wish I was there. 00:36:14.708 --> 00:36:19.268 Colin: Well, especially with this news that so 2025 RailsConf is going to be 00:36:19.268 --> 00:36:25.823 the last RailsConf as far as It's being run by Ruby central and it's been run, 00:36:25.823 --> 00:36:29.323 I don't know if O'Reilly ran it or if it was just sponsored heavily by them 00:36:29.323 --> 00:36:34.593 in the past, but I think my first one was 2008 which was pretty early, but 00:36:34.703 --> 00:36:35.673 CJ: that was a long time ago. 00:36:35.813 --> 00:36:38.023 Colin: sad to see that it's happening. 00:36:38.073 --> 00:36:38.953 I don't know. 00:36:38.983 --> 00:36:40.123 Like, do we think it's 00:36:42.323 --> 00:36:46.313 their, their announcement was saying that it, that people are not coming back 00:36:46.363 --> 00:36:48.553 in the numbers that they need them to. 00:36:49.408 --> 00:36:49.858 CJ: Mm hmm. 00:36:50.378 --> 00:36:55.458 Colin: But at the same time, RailsWorld sold out in like 20 minutes. 00:36:56.008 --> 00:36:57.708 So it's a little challenging. 00:36:58.738 --> 00:37:04.468 CJ: It seems to me that they wanted to sort of not take a break, but like they're 00:37:04.468 --> 00:37:06.688 burnt out on hosting events or something. 00:37:06.688 --> 00:37:11.728 And there's, I mean, between RubyConf and RailsConf, that's a 00:37:11.748 --> 00:37:13.968 huge lift for one organization. 00:37:13.968 --> 00:37:18.088 And so if they can focus on RubyConf, make the language conference great. 00:37:18.283 --> 00:37:22.953 And another thing that I saw pointed out was that there's so many regional 00:37:22.953 --> 00:37:27.333 conferences, like the real SAS conference the Andrew Culver is doing. 00:37:27.423 --> 00:37:31.663 Jason sweats, got the Las Vegas one that happens in city Ruby. 00:37:32.033 --> 00:37:33.703 And then there's a whole bunch of other ones that are kind of 00:37:33.703 --> 00:37:36.783 just like regional things that have happened on the East coast. 00:37:36.783 --> 00:37:38.763 And there was like mountain Ruby or something. 00:37:38.973 --> 00:37:39.223 Yeah. 00:37:39.223 --> 00:37:39.823 Rails camp. 00:37:39.823 --> 00:37:42.993 There's tons that are happening that are smaller. 00:37:44.253 --> 00:37:47.813 I don't know, maybe easier to make it to than a national 00:37:47.813 --> 00:37:49.443 or, you know, global event. 00:37:50.063 --> 00:37:52.343 And then on top of that rails world is now happening. 00:37:52.963 --> 00:37:57.983 And I don't know, I, some like part of me wonders too, if it was around 00:37:57.983 --> 00:38:03.673 like the finances, like could they just not justify the money anymore or 00:38:04.633 --> 00:38:07.703 Colin: Well, Ruby central also maintains Ruby gems, which I would 00:38:07.703 --> 00:38:10.823 say is key to the Ruby ecosystem. 00:38:10.903 --> 00:38:16.293 And they did mention that a lot of their funding is going towards 24 seven support. 00:38:16.773 --> 00:38:18.603 They had hired some engineers. 00:38:18.793 --> 00:38:21.963 There was a bunch of things that they listed, which is all good things 00:38:22.313 --> 00:38:25.643 that the rails community, the Sinatra community, anyone who's using anything 00:38:25.643 --> 00:38:27.223 in Ruby is going to benefit from. 00:38:27.773 --> 00:38:29.883 But Yeah, it'll be, it'll be interesting. 00:38:29.903 --> 00:38:30.733 Rails world. 00:38:30.783 --> 00:38:35.563 I'm excited that it exists, but it seems it's not a community conference. 00:38:35.733 --> 00:38:37.063 Like that's the challenge. 00:38:37.063 --> 00:38:41.303 And I think I get it because I've run things for very long periods of time 00:38:41.303 --> 00:38:46.943 and it's hard to let them go, but it, it also, It, it, you can get burnt 00:38:46.943 --> 00:38:51.583 out really fast and feel like not everyone's supporting the community 00:38:51.583 --> 00:38:54.523 when the community doesn't show up the way that you hope that they will. 00:38:54.523 --> 00:38:58.733 And I thought the last one was pretty well attended, but also 00:38:59.103 --> 00:39:00.293 they're not cheap to put on. 00:39:00.313 --> 00:39:02.843 So, you know, everything's more expensive today. 00:39:04.213 --> 00:39:04.583 CJ: Yeah. 00:39:04.623 --> 00:39:08.813 I also wonder if this decision was made after last year's, they were 00:39:08.813 --> 00:39:10.343 like, all right, we're going to do two more years or something. 00:39:10.343 --> 00:39:12.393 Or when, like when was this decision made? 00:39:12.843 --> 00:39:20.043 Because I felt like last year, it seemed like the economy was in the dumps and 00:39:20.053 --> 00:39:25.213 a lot of companies had just had huge layoffs and that the like hiring the 00:39:25.243 --> 00:39:31.643 energy and the hiring arena at the conference was really, really like low. 00:39:32.103 --> 00:39:32.873 And so. 00:39:33.563 --> 00:39:37.203 I wonder if that's a big part of it too, is that like they lost sponsors because 00:39:37.233 --> 00:39:41.193 companies are pulling back because we don't have zero interest rates anymore. 00:39:41.803 --> 00:39:47.033 And so, yeah, I don't know if that was part of the decision, but 00:39:48.373 --> 00:39:49.873 yeah, I'm sad that it won't be. 00:39:50.863 --> 00:39:55.118 I, one thing that I worry about is that it's a signal that rails is. 00:39:55.388 --> 00:39:56.868 Not healthy, right? 00:39:56.868 --> 00:39:58.908 Like that it as an ecosystem is not healthy. 00:39:58.908 --> 00:40:01.578 And I don't think that is true. 00:40:01.578 --> 00:40:04.768 I think that there's a lot of amazing things going for rails right 00:40:04.768 --> 00:40:09.288 now, but I'm, I'm worried that the perception will be, Oh, look at this. 00:40:09.288 --> 00:40:13.038 This is another like sign that rails is dead because you know, their 00:40:13.038 --> 00:40:14.918 conference can't even like survive. 00:40:14.938 --> 00:40:17.328 Cause they can't get people to show up or sponsor or whatever. 00:40:17.328 --> 00:40:20.378 It's like, wait a second, what signals are we sending? 00:40:20.823 --> 00:40:23.473 By by doing this right or 00:40:23.973 --> 00:40:24.313 Colin: Yeah. 00:40:25.253 --> 00:40:25.743 Well, 00:40:25.833 --> 00:40:27.923 CJ: seemed like there was a power struggle between Rails 00:40:28.003 --> 00:40:28.823 Colin: there was. 00:40:28.913 --> 00:40:29.488 CJ: Rails world. 00:40:29.988 --> 00:40:34.138 Colin: Well, there was a power struggle between a certain person and RailsConf 00:40:34.138 --> 00:40:36.398 as well, so there's also that. 00:40:36.528 --> 00:40:40.808 But I mean, do you take RailsWorld to be the equivalent of Laracon? 00:40:40.818 --> 00:40:45.688 Like, Laracon's put on by Laravel, and RailsWorld is put on by Rails. 00:40:45.908 --> 00:40:50.508 And then RailsConf was this thing that the community, I mean, RubyCentral's 00:40:50.528 --> 00:40:53.813 not the community, but it's It's the steward of the community. 00:40:54.293 --> 00:40:59.763 So I don't think it's necessarily a bad, you know, like a, a black eye on the rails 00:40:59.763 --> 00:41:05.133 itself, I think that's pretty healthy and, and we'll have a lot going on there, 00:41:05.653 --> 00:41:12.203 maybe that just means an explosion of more regionals, maybe a rails conf online or 00:41:12.613 --> 00:41:14.913 caboose caboose comps, things like that. 00:41:16.608 --> 00:41:19.038 CJ: Yeah, it, yeah, I don't know. 00:41:19.068 --> 00:41:23.758 We'll see what happens, but yeah, I definitely felt like there was quite a bit 00:41:23.758 --> 00:41:29.348 of drama about locations and inclusivity at the one that happened in Texas. 00:41:29.348 --> 00:41:31.828 And then there was a bunch of drama about moving it to different 00:41:31.828 --> 00:41:34.888 places and, oh, we already paid the deposit for this location. 00:41:34.888 --> 00:41:36.308 And it's just like, yeah. 00:41:36.838 --> 00:41:39.168 And then the power struggles between who's going to give the keynote, 00:41:39.318 --> 00:41:40.538 who's not going to give the keynote. 00:41:40.568 --> 00:41:47.248 And just, I, it's annoying to see that kind of like friction. 00:41:47.538 --> 00:41:51.928 And I just want everyone to be happy and have fun and build cool shit. 00:41:51.958 --> 00:41:54.108 And like yeah, it's tough, 00:41:54.283 --> 00:41:56.483 Colin: support your local conferences. 00:41:56.483 --> 00:42:00.833 If you've got like a regional, you know, definitely look for them. 00:42:00.843 --> 00:42:04.093 Meetups even, I think meetups are starting to come back. 00:42:04.093 --> 00:42:13.453 Ian Lansman was talking about New York PHP being back, the New York PHP meetup. 00:42:13.813 --> 00:42:16.053 Devrino is still kicking, still going. 00:42:16.063 --> 00:42:17.853 So yeah, I think just, yeah. 00:42:18.488 --> 00:42:22.578 If you're looking for your group of devs and, you know, of all skill 00:42:22.588 --> 00:42:25.468 levels, just got to get out of the house and go find something like that. 00:42:25.498 --> 00:42:29.358 But Rails world feels not accessible to everyone. 00:42:29.358 --> 00:42:31.238 I think that's the concern that I have. 00:42:31.238 --> 00:42:35.518 It's like you either have to be able to spend a lot of money on a moment's 00:42:35.518 --> 00:42:36.988 notice when they drop the tickets. 00:42:38.448 --> 00:42:41.148 And there's just not that many tickets, so it's going to sell out. 00:42:42.928 --> 00:42:47.818 CJ: One thing that also has been in the back of my mind is that a lot of 00:42:47.818 --> 00:42:52.488 times these conference organizers need to lock down a venue like 12 months or 00:42:52.488 --> 00:42:56.118 more ahead of time in order to like know this is where we're going to have it. 00:42:56.128 --> 00:43:01.088 But that makes it inelastic in terms of the like size of the number of 00:43:01.098 --> 00:43:02.478 audience, like people that can come. 00:43:02.938 --> 00:43:07.213 And so if you're, if you're planning rails world, Next year 00:43:07.283 --> 00:43:09.413 ahead of the event, that's going to happen this year or something. 00:43:09.413 --> 00:43:09.683 Right. 00:43:09.963 --> 00:43:13.523 And you have to like pick the venue in the venue has a max number of people. 00:43:13.873 --> 00:43:17.173 Then you're already like locked in and you don't know what the demand is going to be. 00:43:17.183 --> 00:43:20.173 It'd be much better if you could like sell the tickets, figure out 00:43:20.183 --> 00:43:22.023 how many people want to come first. 00:43:22.773 --> 00:43:26.333 Even if you had like an RSVP system or something, it was like, I'm, I'm gonna, 00:43:26.363 --> 00:43:30.683 I'm planning on coming or something, you know, give some indication of the numbers 00:43:30.683 --> 00:43:33.658 of people that are going to come so that you can you know, get I don't know, or, or 00:43:33.658 --> 00:43:37.978 pick venues that are more elastic in terms of like how many people they can support. 00:43:38.638 --> 00:43:41.498 That way people like everyone can go, that wants to go. 00:43:41.498 --> 00:43:45.068 And I think the fact that like all the tickets are selling out in like two 00:43:45.068 --> 00:43:50.683 seconds online is indicating that they just don't have The right amount of 00:43:50.713 --> 00:43:55.723 supply for the number of people that want to go, which also feels exclusive. 00:43:55.833 --> 00:43:57.463 It's like, Oh, you know, yeah. 00:43:57.463 --> 00:44:00.053 Did you get a ticket or not in the first 20 minutes? 00:44:00.063 --> 00:44:04.223 Or were you in a meeting or were you working using the technology that I'm 00:44:04.223 --> 00:44:05.463 about to go to this conference for? 00:44:05.463 --> 00:44:05.903 It's like, 00:44:05.983 --> 00:44:10.193 Colin: and rails world is new so they'll they'll fix that I think like 00:44:10.203 --> 00:44:15.273 having more Scholarships having more attendance the tricky thing is if you 00:44:15.273 --> 00:44:20.153 get too big of a venue now You're stuck trying to sell into too many seats, too. 00:44:20.153 --> 00:44:25.193 So you it is a balance I've done number of events where you sign that contract 00:44:25.193 --> 00:44:30.283 and you're like, well now we got to fill this place And clearly rails world has no 00:44:30.303 --> 00:44:34.958 issue doing that With their numbers, but I want to say it's like hundreds of tickets. 00:44:34.968 --> 00:44:35.838 It's not thousands. 00:44:35.848 --> 00:44:37.638 So it's a different scale. 00:44:37.638 --> 00:44:40.198 And I think a lot of these, like even the right, the docs 00:44:40.208 --> 00:44:43.578 was only 250, 300 people or so. 00:44:44.138 --> 00:44:46.128 But cool. 00:44:46.193 --> 00:44:51.423 CJ: There is something nice too, about a cozy one, like a smaller conference. 00:44:51.423 --> 00:44:53.863 It's like a little bit easier to connect one on one to people, but 00:44:54.378 --> 00:44:54.658 Colin: Yeah. 00:44:55.208 --> 00:44:57.248 That's what the community ones really are for. 00:44:57.248 --> 00:45:02.238 Like when I see who had secured tickets to rails world, it's like, you know, okay. 00:45:02.543 --> 00:45:06.023 All the Tailwind people, all the people that, you know, Ben 00:45:06.023 --> 00:45:09.573 Orenstein, all these people that we see are going to this thing. 00:45:10.303 --> 00:45:13.173 So it makes it look like it's not a thing for everybody, because it's like, you 00:45:13.173 --> 00:45:16.873 gotta be in the in crowd, or you gotta be giving a talk, or things like that. 00:45:16.873 --> 00:45:20.313 So, the community ones, and this is not to say that we shouldn't have RailsWorld, 00:45:20.313 --> 00:45:26.563 it's just, maybe it needs more of a community track, or Some sort of thing. 00:45:26.563 --> 00:45:30.343 And I don't know, I don't remember what year it was, but there was another 00:45:30.373 --> 00:45:34.133 controversy that, or maybe it was just timing, but there was RailsConf and 00:45:34.133 --> 00:45:38.493 then literally right after there was KuboosConf and it was like a free version 00:45:38.953 --> 00:45:44.823 of RailsConf and I don't know what that was in response to, if it was just for fun 00:45:44.853 --> 00:45:48.773 or if it was like, we're not going to pay for your conference, but here's this open 00:45:48.773 --> 00:45:51.223 source version that's shortly following. 00:45:52.553 --> 00:45:53.263 CJ: Interesting. 00:45:55.533 --> 00:46:00.723 It's tough, but you've already had like tons of conferences this season. 00:46:00.723 --> 00:46:01.433 So I could. 00:46:02.163 --> 00:46:04.733 Understand wanting to take a little breather from them. 00:46:05.238 --> 00:46:06.168 Colin: yeah, totally. 00:46:06.278 --> 00:46:07.078 Yeah, I mean it's good. 00:46:07.078 --> 00:46:07.498 It's good. 00:46:07.498 --> 00:46:08.458 I'm missing this one. 00:46:08.478 --> 00:46:12.878 Maybe we'll go to 2025 for the last hurrah. 00:46:14.073 --> 00:46:18.603 CJ: Yeah, I hope they make it a huge and available to everyone. 00:46:19.838 --> 00:46:22.978 Colin: Yeah, I don't think they announced where it's gonna be, did they? 00:46:24.603 --> 00:46:25.593 CJ: I did not see, 00:46:27.853 --> 00:46:31.503 I think they usually announce it like at the end of the current conference. 00:46:32.038 --> 00:46:33.448 Colin: Yeah, because this one's in Detroit. 00:46:34.008 --> 00:46:36.898 But you can buy tickets for 2025 already. 00:46:37.658 --> 00:46:39.358 A supporter ticket. 00:46:42.743 --> 00:46:43.203 CJ: Interesting. 00:46:43.588 --> 00:46:44.438 Colin: But yeah, 00:46:44.533 --> 00:46:44.913 CJ: All right. 00:46:44.913 --> 00:46:46.983 Well, it feels like a good place to wrap it. 00:46:47.003 --> 00:46:47.523 What do you say? 00:46:47.888 --> 00:46:48.678 Colin: I think so. 00:46:50.683 --> 00:46:51.063 CJ: All right. 00:46:51.123 --> 00:46:53.223 As always, you can head over to build and learn. 00:46:53.223 --> 00:46:57.483 dev for links to the resources and things we talked about today. 00:46:58.183 --> 00:46:58.793 And Yeah. 00:46:58.793 --> 00:47:01.603 If you're feeling generous, head over to your podcast player, 00:47:01.623 --> 00:47:02.793 drop in a five star review. 00:47:02.793 --> 00:47:03.673 We really appreciate it. 00:47:03.673 --> 00:47:08.303 It helps other people find the show and otherwise we will see you next time. 00:47:09.328 --> 00:47:10.118 Colin: Bye friends.