WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:01:17.899 --> 00:01:20.119 Matt: Hey, Kim, welcome back to the WP Minute. 00:01:21.029 --> 00:01:21.959 Kim: Thank you for having me, Matt. 00:01:22.749 --> 00:01:25.039 Matt: You are the the leading return guest. 00:01:25.329 --> 00:01:26.469 You're the, you're the all star. 00:01:26.709 --> 00:01:26.999 on the, 00:01:27.049 --> 00:01:30.409 Kim: try to keep doing cool stuff so that that stays the case. 00:01:31.109 --> 00:01:35.109 Matt: The other day I, I tweeted out, I forget what day it was, but you 00:01:35.109 --> 00:01:36.679 know, prices going up everywhere. 00:01:37.469 --> 00:01:40.849 Food, water, everything. 00:01:41.239 --> 00:01:43.789 And streaming services, my God. 00:01:43.799 --> 00:01:46.169 And I actually want to dissect that in a moment here, the 00:01:46.169 --> 00:01:47.469 software streaming services. 00:01:48.109 --> 00:01:52.079 and I was like, man, I don't see anybody really going up in the WordPress world. 00:01:52.229 --> 00:01:58.579 And even my day job at gravity forms, we've held the line really long. 00:01:59.139 --> 00:02:01.599 I mean, they still have the developer license and we're 00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:03.269 rolling out gravity SMTP. 00:02:03.539 --> 00:02:06.209 We're wondering, okay, like how do we turn this into a, we want to 00:02:06.209 --> 00:02:07.429 turn this into a secondary product. 00:02:07.429 --> 00:02:08.709 This can't just be for free. 00:02:08.709 --> 00:02:10.259 We can't continue free. 00:02:10.739 --> 00:02:12.749 And then I saw that you were raising prices. 00:02:12.749 --> 00:02:16.769 My brother's been, a happy customer for many years running, thetraderisk. 00:02:16.769 --> 00:02:23.049 com, his daily, finance, Non advice, newsletter slash membership, so check that 00:02:23.049 --> 00:02:23.959 out if you're interested in that stuff. 00:02:23.959 --> 00:02:26.249 But you just raised, I got the prices up right now. 00:02:26.409 --> 00:02:29.699 You have a free plugin, which everyone knows and loves. 00:02:29.869 --> 00:02:32.599 Your standard plan is now 3. 00:02:32.599 --> 00:02:34.659 47 for the year, plus plan 5. 00:02:34.659 --> 00:02:36.219 97 for the year. 00:02:36.439 --> 00:02:39.844 And my favorite plan, which I should, I, I want more plugin 00:02:39.844 --> 00:02:44.714 developers and theme authors to do is have an enterprise plan at 5, 000 00:02:44.724 --> 00:02:47.074 plus, like here's the floor, Mrs. 00:02:47.084 --> 00:02:48.304 Enterprise customer. 00:02:48.304 --> 00:02:51.924 Who's about to throw lawyers and a purchasing department at me. 00:02:52.354 --> 00:02:55.084 It starts at 5, 000 and we scale up depending on how 00:02:55.084 --> 00:02:55.884 much headache do you give me? 00:02:55.884 --> 00:02:59.114 So all of that is to say you're raising prices. 00:02:59.134 --> 00:03:00.074 Fantastic. 00:03:00.344 --> 00:03:00.924 Insert. 00:03:01.519 --> 00:03:03.579 Clap, audio and the post edit. 00:03:04.189 --> 00:03:05.299 why did this happen? 00:03:05.339 --> 00:03:08.539 You have a whole sheet of notes, but why did this happen for you? 00:03:09.354 --> 00:03:12.764 Kim: Yeah, we, it's two years in the making, increasing these prices. 00:03:12.764 --> 00:03:15.984 The previous increase was the introduction of that standard 00:03:15.984 --> 00:03:18.304 plan, which was formerly 247. 00:03:18.314 --> 00:03:21.964 So that saw about a 33, 30 percent increase. 00:03:22.314 --> 00:03:25.804 And plus, formerly it was 347, jumped to 597. 00:03:25.814 --> 00:03:26.434 So, that's pretty cool. 00:03:26.614 --> 00:03:29.204 Bigger, bigger jump over 50%. 00:03:29.434 --> 00:03:33.564 I think if I do the math on that, and it kind of coincides with the philosophy 00:03:33.564 --> 00:03:37.204 that you should always be experimenting with pricing, always be looking and 00:03:37.204 --> 00:03:42.584 reevaluating against inflation against other players in the market, and 00:03:42.584 --> 00:03:46.114 against where you really want to target and the best buyer for your product. 00:03:46.124 --> 00:03:50.929 So it kind of was a factor of all those things and least of which was our new 3. 00:03:50.929 --> 00:03:55.079 0 version where we pulled some of our paid products into the core plugin. 00:03:55.309 --> 00:03:59.559 So we just made the core product itself even richer, even better to start with. 00:03:59.569 --> 00:04:04.109 So we can dig into any of those areas, but really in the spirit of experimentation, 00:04:04.419 --> 00:04:07.279 this is the first phase of some other pricing changes you're going to see 00:04:07.279 --> 00:04:09.179 from us this year and next year. 00:04:09.409 --> 00:04:10.479 Matt: The free plugin. 00:04:10.989 --> 00:04:14.799 I can't remember, the core plugin and 29 free add ons. 00:04:15.299 --> 00:04:16.529 Was that always the case? 00:04:16.709 --> 00:04:17.409 The 29, 00:04:17.894 --> 00:04:19.704 Kim: The free add ons keep increasing. 00:04:19.704 --> 00:04:23.534 We move some out of paid tiers as they become more user friendly. 00:04:23.904 --> 00:04:27.494 A lot of what divides what's in core and what's an add on feature for us 00:04:27.774 --> 00:04:31.944 is how much support and developer experience and technical know how 00:04:31.954 --> 00:04:33.204 you're going to need to use it. 00:04:33.214 --> 00:04:37.084 So, and 29 is also because we release all of our integration plugins. 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:40.629 for free as much as we can and as much as possible in the WordPress. 00:04:40.659 --> 00:04:41.679 org repository. 00:04:41.949 --> 00:04:44.249 so it increases as we add new integrations. 00:04:44.539 --> 00:04:47.869 the newest ones are the Google Analytics integration, which has fully commerce 00:04:47.889 --> 00:04:50.379 tracking, and custom dimensions tracking. 00:04:50.379 --> 00:04:52.789 So you don't have to use a product like Monster Insights for that. 00:04:53.209 --> 00:04:57.719 And then also an integration with the Kismet to help prevent spam checkouts. 00:04:57.729 --> 00:05:00.429 So those are two additions to that free tier. 00:05:01.219 --> 00:05:07.079 Matt: how much of the low cost of plugins and themes is because 00:05:07.419 --> 00:05:10.779 developers, let's face it, most of the folks who are starting these 00:05:11.139 --> 00:05:13.309 pieces of software are developers. 00:05:13.689 --> 00:05:14.239 There are. 00:05:14.614 --> 00:05:17.104 They happen upon building a business, right? 00:05:17.124 --> 00:05:18.154 Oh, that I built this thing. 00:05:18.154 --> 00:05:18.894 It's kind of cool. 00:05:18.894 --> 00:05:21.764 People started using it then, Oh, you should actually monetize this. 00:05:21.784 --> 00:05:23.084 Cause that's what everyone says you should do. 00:05:23.304 --> 00:05:25.874 And then all of a sudden they find themselves three years down the road 00:05:25.874 --> 00:05:29.704 with a business and they're doing taxes now, and there's all kinds 00:05:29.704 --> 00:05:30.934 of craziness running a business. 00:05:31.314 --> 00:05:34.944 How much of it is this the low price because they're afraid to raise the price? 00:05:34.974 --> 00:05:37.714 They they're not really they weren't really built for this and they're kind 00:05:37.714 --> 00:05:43.794 of afraid to say oh, man Try to bring my 29 plug in to 79 now How much of it is a 00:05:43.794 --> 00:05:48.564 fear factor or is there another element to why prices are so low in WordPress? 00:05:49.424 --> 00:05:52.564 Kim: I think in general people peg their product against other products that 00:05:52.564 --> 00:05:57.984 aren't necessarily related or necessarily as feature matched or feature rich. 00:05:58.294 --> 00:06:01.314 So if we say like, oh, across the board, no one wants to pay more than 00:06:01.314 --> 00:06:03.484 59 for a plugin, that's ridiculous. 00:06:03.704 --> 00:06:05.614 Well, some plugins are one line of code. 00:06:06.099 --> 00:06:10.099 And some plugins like ours are thousands of lines of code and do a lot more and 00:06:10.109 --> 00:06:11.689 add a lot more value to the end user. 00:06:11.689 --> 00:06:15.699 So I think they just look at what they think the, the top threshold 00:06:15.699 --> 00:06:19.119 is that they can get someone to buy it and they stick there. 00:06:19.169 --> 00:06:20.389 and often they're a small team. 00:06:20.389 --> 00:06:24.644 So 59 and you get thousands of customers in a year, that's a big deal. 00:06:25.154 --> 00:06:30.294 Really good wage for a small team or a single founder with a couple freelancers 00:06:30.294 --> 00:06:34.784 working for them So often I think they look at it as what's sustainable for me 00:06:34.784 --> 00:06:38.804 What do I need to make and they stop there and they just don't want to think about 00:06:38.804 --> 00:06:43.744 it anymore I also think it takes time to get into a pricing model that will really 00:06:43.744 --> 00:06:49.224 fit you and fit your product So early on you have no clue you put a tag on it And 00:06:49.234 --> 00:06:52.994 if you're not looking at that every couple of weeks, every month early on, then 00:06:52.994 --> 00:06:54.734 you're going to let that big gap go by. 00:06:54.754 --> 00:06:57.034 And then that fear sets in because you're like, wow, it's 00:06:57.034 --> 00:06:58.324 been this price for three years. 00:06:58.474 --> 00:07:01.474 How can I possibly raise it double, like double people 00:07:01.474 --> 00:07:02.684 are going to freak out on me. 00:07:02.904 --> 00:07:05.174 when you really should have been slowly increasing it. 00:07:05.184 --> 00:07:07.664 So you might be at triple or quadruple that initial price 00:07:08.124 --> 00:07:09.274 a few years down the road. 00:07:09.824 --> 00:07:12.294 Matt: Yeah, you know and I was saying this at the top of the show. 00:07:12.304 --> 00:07:17.664 I mean streaming services This is the last this is the last service or business. 00:07:17.674 --> 00:07:21.694 I It's the only, it's the one that really gets me when I see like 00:07:21.884 --> 00:07:26.779 Netflix go up another dollar, Spotify go, you got, you don't need it. 00:07:26.779 --> 00:07:31.414 I would love to know the backend margins of these streaming services, or 00:07:31.414 --> 00:07:33.714 maybe there are, maybe they're losing money because they're plowing so much 00:07:33.714 --> 00:07:35.754 money into the content side of it. 00:07:35.754 --> 00:07:40.044 So we kind of win with that, I guess as consumers, but I, that's 00:07:40.064 --> 00:07:41.374 the one that really drives me nuts. 00:07:42.154 --> 00:07:43.004 And I think. 00:07:43.899 --> 00:07:46.799 people who are building plugins or themes or a SaaS business 00:07:47.009 --> 00:07:48.289 that's powering another business. 00:07:48.509 --> 00:07:49.329 That's okay. 00:07:49.579 --> 00:07:50.599 That one makes sense. 00:07:50.689 --> 00:07:52.109 Raising that price makes sense. 00:07:52.689 --> 00:07:55.219 if somebody is listening to this, they have their, their plugin business. 00:07:55.479 --> 00:07:59.459 What was it that triggered you to say, okay, it's, it's finally time to do it. 00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:01.409 Like, was it the economy? 00:08:01.549 --> 00:08:02.849 Was it the inflation? 00:08:03.259 --> 00:08:05.989 What was it that was like, okay, it's finally time three years since 00:08:05.989 --> 00:08:07.339 we've done this, let's do it again. 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:09.769 What was it that really pushed it over the hump for you? 00:08:10.744 --> 00:08:12.274 Kim: I think launching 3. 00:08:12.274 --> 00:08:13.914 0 was like, get that out the door. 00:08:14.274 --> 00:08:16.514 And then we'd look at things again. 00:08:16.524 --> 00:08:19.204 And we did a lot of thinking toward the end of last year over. 00:08:19.509 --> 00:08:21.749 Who do we really want to design this product for? 00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:24.309 What is the direction of this product and who does it fit best? 00:08:24.539 --> 00:08:27.979 And as much as we're fully open source, we have all of our code on GitHub. 00:08:28.049 --> 00:08:30.119 Everything is technically free to use. 00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:35.159 the person that we're really designing toward, the person that years from now 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:39.279 we'll be using our product and succeeding best with it is someone that wants to 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:40.769 get paid through their membership site. 00:08:41.104 --> 00:08:44.014 It's someone that wants to invest in their business and create a 00:08:44.014 --> 00:08:47.364 serious online membership and the online subscription portal. 00:08:47.614 --> 00:08:50.224 and those people have money to invest in their business. 00:08:50.504 --> 00:08:53.214 So, even though they're a DIY or they're looking at this as a 00:08:53.214 --> 00:08:55.304 long term relationship with us. 00:08:55.344 --> 00:08:59.584 And I think by increasing the price, we're getting more of those focused buyers on 00:08:59.584 --> 00:09:03.024 the product rather than like the person that's just kind of considering it 00:09:03.044 --> 00:09:04.814 and just going to disappear in a year. 00:09:05.004 --> 00:09:07.704 a lot of our value is provided in that first year of membership. 00:09:07.704 --> 00:09:07.899 Yep. 00:09:07.979 --> 00:09:11.499 So when we work with you through support within three months, you 00:09:11.499 --> 00:09:14.799 should be pretty stable and your sites launched maybe sooner than that. 00:09:15.119 --> 00:09:16.829 and then year two is just gravy. 00:09:16.829 --> 00:09:18.989 You're, you're iterating on your business. 00:09:18.999 --> 00:09:21.389 You're generating your content and you're growing. 00:09:21.669 --> 00:09:24.199 but we see a lot of people drop off on year two and a lot of it 00:09:24.199 --> 00:09:25.779 is because their business failed. 00:09:26.119 --> 00:09:29.159 So I think we're trying to tackle that from the front end to say, 00:09:29.789 --> 00:09:32.839 If you're ready to invest in your business, a larger chunk of money. 00:09:33.359 --> 00:09:36.219 And really commit to it then I think you're more successful 00:09:36.219 --> 00:09:37.799 year two and we have less churn 00:09:39.494 --> 00:09:41.284 Matt: I'm going to try to set the stage for this question. 00:09:41.294 --> 00:09:42.464 It's going to be a little bit long. 00:09:42.924 --> 00:09:43.714 So bear with me. 00:09:43.874 --> 00:09:49.554 In the age of AI, I think investing in humans is the most important thing 00:09:49.554 --> 00:09:54.284 somebody can do to really bring out that brand, the human in your brand. 00:09:54.954 --> 00:09:58.774 Not saying you specifically, Kim, but for anyone listening that has a plug in 00:09:58.774 --> 00:10:00.104 business or a theme business, whatever. 00:10:01.294 --> 00:10:06.864 I constantly see, especially in the creator side, I made this comparison the 00:10:06.864 --> 00:10:09.344 other day, and I don't want to put you in any hot water, especially if you have 00:10:09.364 --> 00:10:16.114 add ons, but beehive, the email platform versus convert kit, the email platform. 00:10:17.909 --> 00:10:22.209 I see beehive like the typical startup bros, the content that's 00:10:22.209 --> 00:10:25.789 coming out, the brand that they, that they portray startup bros. 00:10:25.819 --> 00:10:27.209 Look how much money we raise. 00:10:27.239 --> 00:10:31.219 They just raised prices as well off the back of whatever, 30 million or 00:10:31.219 --> 00:10:32.359 something like that, that they raise. 00:10:32.359 --> 00:10:33.029 I forget what it is. 00:10:33.319 --> 00:10:35.539 And it's this constant, like, look at us. 00:10:35.814 --> 00:10:40.874 Securing the bag right as founders and you just know that at the end of the 00:10:40.874 --> 00:10:46.064 day They're just gonna sell to whoever is ready to buy them for it's gonna be 00:10:46.064 --> 00:10:50.534 their song story of a billion dollars or something Insane and congratulations to 00:10:50.534 --> 00:10:54.624 them But the content and the connection they put out is look at us build this 00:10:54.634 --> 00:10:59.819 platform that you all love or care about I see people perceived to love only to 00:10:59.819 --> 00:11:04.339 get sold at the end of the day, you know, and that's what blows my mind is that 00:11:04.339 --> 00:11:09.119 people should be investing in brands that put that customer first convert kid. 00:11:09.119 --> 00:11:11.889 I see it much more on the creator side. 00:11:11.899 --> 00:11:14.649 They just launched like a podcast studio that any of their customers can 00:11:14.649 --> 00:11:16.709 use in Ohio or something like that. 00:11:17.059 --> 00:11:18.789 Different, two different stories. 00:11:18.809 --> 00:11:24.489 And both you and Jason have been around since the dawn of commercial plugins. 00:11:24.489 --> 00:11:28.859 And you continue to put that customer first and foremost, back 00:11:28.859 --> 00:11:30.489 to your thing about these customers. 00:11:30.509 --> 00:11:31.959 We lose customers because they go up. 00:11:31.999 --> 00:11:33.269 They, maybe they go out of business. 00:11:33.269 --> 00:11:34.809 This membership thing was too hard. 00:11:34.939 --> 00:11:38.809 How are you positioning to, to solve that now that you've got 3. 00:11:38.809 --> 00:11:41.949 0 out the door and your notes, you have already working on 4. 00:11:41.949 --> 00:11:43.149 0 in the, in progress. 00:11:43.469 --> 00:11:45.399 How are you, Because that's a whole other animal. 00:11:45.409 --> 00:11:48.749 How are you getting that customer first and foremost to say, we want to make you 00:11:48.749 --> 00:11:50.299 the most successful at your membership? 00:11:50.309 --> 00:11:52.409 How are you positioning yourself for that? 00:11:53.019 --> 00:11:56.479 Kim: Yeah, so the the big things coming are We're definitely 00:11:56.509 --> 00:11:57.789 focused on the front end design. 00:11:57.789 --> 00:12:01.289 So I think that's going to support people these people are the first time often 00:12:01.289 --> 00:12:04.799 they're creating a website and working online They get very hung up on design and 00:12:04.829 --> 00:12:08.099 appearance of things when that's the case Misdirected what they need to be doing 00:12:08.099 --> 00:12:11.959 is content and delivering value creating their courses and doing the things that 00:12:11.959 --> 00:12:15.509 are going to get people to pay and keep paying them for their membership site. 00:12:15.559 --> 00:12:19.069 I joke that like ugly websites are successful websites because a lot 00:12:19.069 --> 00:12:20.499 of it isn't what it looks like. 00:12:20.509 --> 00:12:23.799 It's that people are getting the value that you said you were going to provide 00:12:23.799 --> 00:12:26.209 them to challenge that recurring fee. 00:12:26.209 --> 00:12:27.709 So we're going to do front end work. 00:12:27.709 --> 00:12:28.679 It's a long time coming. 00:12:28.989 --> 00:12:31.759 we often thought, you know, themes would handle this and themes would 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:34.409 style forms better and themes would do this, but it's not the case. 00:12:34.624 --> 00:12:36.914 So we're getting very opinionated. 00:12:36.914 --> 00:12:40.434 I think you'll see in a lot of what we do, taking a lot of things in house. 00:12:40.724 --> 00:12:44.034 we can say we integrate with all these platforms, but in reality, that's 00:12:44.034 --> 00:12:48.184 another point of failure for people without, their own skills and developers. 00:12:48.194 --> 00:12:51.324 So even things that we thought we would just provide working 00:12:51.324 --> 00:12:54.044 with recapture for abandoned cart recovery, we're going to take that. 00:12:54.269 --> 00:12:55.799 Or how can we make things like that in house because we 00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:56.989 know that we can control it. 00:12:57.259 --> 00:12:59.529 We know that we can make it more seamless and we don't have to 00:12:59.529 --> 00:13:02.629 rely on the other partner to do some contribution of that code. 00:13:02.629 --> 00:13:06.199 So I think that will just make things a lot easier for that DIY creator. 00:13:06.509 --> 00:13:08.109 we're also looking at how our 4. 00:13:08.109 --> 00:13:12.219 0 version could function not only as a membership and subscription platform, 00:13:12.249 --> 00:13:16.409 but kind of as a one time payment, transactional, Purchase environment. 00:13:16.409 --> 00:13:19.959 So we look at memberships as a subscription Platform, but we're as 00:13:19.969 --> 00:13:24.319 integrated with gateways as WooCommerce is so if you think WooCommerce is challenging 00:13:24.319 --> 00:13:28.639 to work with and to develop for It's even more challenging for memberships because 00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:32.509 we have subscriptions built in but we have the ability to take one time payments, 00:13:32.509 --> 00:13:36.019 too So a lot of our users are saying they want to be able to sell recurring 00:13:36.019 --> 00:13:38.509 memberships but also sell one time things. 00:13:38.819 --> 00:13:42.259 So, we're looking at that as a way for people who just don't know how to 00:13:42.259 --> 00:13:45.779 deliver value on a recurring basis, but they can create one time info 00:13:45.779 --> 00:13:49.749 products and still have a community and audience of members on their site. 00:13:50.029 --> 00:13:51.589 so definitely looking at those two pieces. 00:13:51.869 --> 00:13:55.769 And then also, because we're focused on helping people get paid, we can focus more 00:13:55.769 --> 00:13:59.929 on, On the things that help our members get paid from their members so looking 00:13:59.929 --> 00:14:04.539 at like I said abandoned cart recovery is one point there churn and all kinds of 00:14:04.539 --> 00:14:08.499 things like that So helping them be more successful by avoiding shooting themselves 00:14:08.499 --> 00:14:10.959 in the foot with rookie mistakes. 00:14:11.129 --> 00:14:16.549 Matt: Yeah, I don't envy the position you're in having to serve 00:14:16.549 --> 00:14:18.799 so much for a customer, right? 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:23.679 Cause you know, the, the seasoned WordPress person, probably the person 00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:27.539 listening to this episode is like, Oh, it's just a membership plugin. 00:14:28.059 --> 00:14:28.889 It's just a member. 00:14:28.949 --> 00:14:32.669 It's just a membership plugin to you and I, who kind of know this stuff. 00:14:32.669 --> 00:14:36.439 And we know where it slots in because we have our solutions maybe for front 00:14:36.439 --> 00:14:40.099 end and forms and all this other stuff, but your customers come to you 00:14:40.099 --> 00:14:41.429 and they're like, ah, I don't even. 00:14:41.494 --> 00:14:44.124 Like, what's this WordPress thing? 00:14:44.124 --> 00:14:47.894 They said I should use this and you have to solve for so much 00:14:48.674 --> 00:14:50.234 theme in front end is huge. 00:14:50.364 --> 00:14:54.304 And you guys started tackling with your own theme probably like what? 00:14:54.304 --> 00:14:56.454 Six ish years ago, roughly. 00:14:56.739 --> 00:15:00.864 Kim: Yeah Member Lite we've, we developed as a classic theme, it has some hybrid 00:15:00.864 --> 00:15:04.904 theme features and now the theme landscape in WordPress is very confusing because of 00:15:04.904 --> 00:15:09.034 site editing and full site editing block themes and all of that, so we're still 00:15:09.034 --> 00:15:13.294 looking at that as an option, but the page builders themselves, Elementor is still 00:15:13.294 --> 00:15:17.774 king of our user base, and I think we want to do more for Elementor for sure. 00:15:18.144 --> 00:15:18.434 Matt: yeah. 00:15:18.894 --> 00:15:20.344 so that was, that was going to be my next question. 00:15:20.344 --> 00:15:22.794 Were you, are you going to get into looking at creating the, 00:15:22.834 --> 00:15:25.194 a block theme, like full on 00:15:25.194 --> 00:15:26.594 Kim: have one kind of in progress. 00:15:26.604 --> 00:15:29.464 We started with Tammy Lister, Focused on that individual 00:15:29.464 --> 00:15:30.984 creator, building community. 00:15:31.174 --> 00:15:35.094 A lot of our users choose to use the BuddyBoss platform because the theme is so 00:15:35.104 --> 00:15:39.284 elegant and simple, but it also comes with a lot of baggage because not everyone is 00:15:39.284 --> 00:15:43.324 building a full community site and wants messaging and wants the directory things. 00:15:43.374 --> 00:15:47.284 So we're trying to feel it out and feel which would be the right theme direction, 00:15:47.344 --> 00:15:50.794 not replicating BuddyBoss's features too much, but some of the profile 00:15:50.794 --> 00:15:54.594 pieces that people like that just make them feel like their website is more 00:15:54.594 --> 00:15:56.894 professional, more professionally created. 00:15:58.024 --> 00:15:58.244 Matt: Yeah. 00:15:58.244 --> 00:15:59.344 And this is. 00:16:00.164 --> 00:16:02.494 I mean, this is why you raise prices, right? 00:16:02.494 --> 00:16:05.974 Because there's, there's, there's just so much under the hood. 00:16:06.234 --> 00:16:08.234 One of the notes you have, one of the bullet points you have written 00:16:08.234 --> 00:16:12.144 down here is being seen as expensive pricing compared to similar products. 00:16:12.654 --> 00:16:18.864 You and Lifter LMS have, strict, do I call it strategic partnership or partners? 00:16:19.604 --> 00:16:22.854 Kim: we, Jason and I own 50 percent of the Lifter LMS product, so 00:16:23.504 --> 00:16:23.754 Matt: How do 00:16:23.944 --> 00:16:24.834 Kim: in bed together. 00:16:25.684 --> 00:16:26.454 It's for real. 00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:27.959 Matt: It's for real, they're in bed together. 00:16:28.119 --> 00:16:34.179 How do you differentiate yourself as you mature PMP? 00:16:34.619 --> 00:16:41.199 Because I always saw LFTR as, the high, the lux version of LMS. 00:16:41.809 --> 00:16:44.389 How do you, as you mature and push 3. 00:16:44.389 --> 00:16:49.569 0 and future versions of PMP, how do you ride alongside what you all are 00:16:49.569 --> 00:16:51.239 doing with LFTR at the same time? 00:16:51.904 --> 00:16:54.994 Kim: That's a challenge and, and I think it's more interesting for me watching 00:16:54.994 --> 00:16:59.404 what MemberPress is doing because they're doubling down on courses a ton. 00:16:59.944 --> 00:17:01.454 And, and that's a historic thing. 00:17:01.454 --> 00:17:04.134 People conflate membership and course, together. 00:17:04.734 --> 00:17:05.944 which is confusing, I think. 00:17:05.944 --> 00:17:06.009 Yeah. 00:17:06.339 --> 00:17:09.929 For us as a business because we don't complete membership and course together. 00:17:09.929 --> 00:17:14.489 It's really hard for a course A course creator to justify recurring subscriptions 00:17:14.829 --> 00:17:17.259 You can't churn out courses all the time. 00:17:17.289 --> 00:17:20.819 And once a course is taken it's hard to justify Why do I keep paying 00:17:21.029 --> 00:17:22.439 you like I took all your courses? 00:17:22.449 --> 00:17:24.029 Why am I going to keep subscribing? 00:17:24.469 --> 00:17:27.959 So it's interesting to me to watch where member press is taking their product where 00:17:27.979 --> 00:17:32.229 paid memberships pro is more focused on the member itself On the association the 00:17:32.229 --> 00:17:36.469 community site which may have an aspect of e learning But not as the core delivery. 00:17:36.779 --> 00:17:37.799 so that's an interesting thing. 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:41.269 Lifter's interesting too, because they don't have their repos public right now. 00:17:41.269 --> 00:17:44.149 So they are open source, but a lot of their code is not publicly 00:17:44.149 --> 00:17:45.649 available on GitHub the way ours is. 00:17:45.939 --> 00:17:50.439 So I think Jason and Mai's influence has been dumped more into the core product. 00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:54.809 Think about ways, that we can become more open source and more open, through that. 00:17:54.819 --> 00:17:57.549 So they are one of the most expensive luxury LMS. 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:03.379 And it's, again, they have the very robust free open source plugin, more complete 00:18:03.579 --> 00:18:05.499 than any others that are out there. 00:18:05.499 --> 00:18:07.969 I think, you know, I haven't used Sensei much, but it's a 00:18:07.969 --> 00:18:09.699 shell of what Lifter LMS does. 00:18:10.019 --> 00:18:12.049 LearnDash has a premium only product. 00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:15.959 So, there are other ones in the repository that are popular LMSs. 00:18:16.329 --> 00:18:20.549 I think the most successful e learning sites, the huge e learning 00:18:21.099 --> 00:18:24.219 sites are using Lyft or LMS or LearnDash for their products. 00:18:24.229 --> 00:18:24.919 So yeah, I don't know. 00:18:24.939 --> 00:18:26.869 It's interesting to be in two conversations about 00:18:26.869 --> 00:18:28.209 pricing with two products 00:18:28.444 --> 00:18:32.894 Matt: I was going to say, like, yeah, does it influence you at all? 00:18:33.384 --> 00:18:36.644 Does it come into play or is it, do you just like mentioned to Chris in 00:18:36.644 --> 00:18:39.234 like a, an executive meeting and say, Hey, like, here's the direction we're 00:18:39.244 --> 00:18:41.784 going in, happy to see like where you go, but like, here's where we're 00:18:41.794 --> 00:18:43.554 firmly planted in this direction. 00:18:43.904 --> 00:18:45.334 Does it influence each other at 00:18:45.729 --> 00:18:46.749 Kim: Very much actually. 00:18:46.749 --> 00:18:50.319 And what's been cool is that we're able to run different experiments in different 00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:51.239 products and get different results. 00:18:51.619 --> 00:18:53.459 The results kind of simultaneously. 00:18:53.459 --> 00:18:57.109 So lifter right now is running an introductory pricing, strategy. 00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:02.059 So they are doing that 50 percent off your first year and not in the way that it's 00:19:02.059 --> 00:19:04.819 like a FOMO, scarcity four hours left. 00:19:04.909 --> 00:19:06.179 it's more introductory pricing. 00:19:06.179 --> 00:19:08.929 It's we want you to choose this platform and let price not be 00:19:08.929 --> 00:19:11.049 a barrier for you in year one. 00:19:12.099 --> 00:19:13.219 Become successful. 00:19:13.229 --> 00:19:16.049 We know that in year two, we'll have proven our value even more to 00:19:16.049 --> 00:19:19.729 you and you will pay the full price on year two upgrade or renewal. 00:19:20.009 --> 00:19:20.979 that gets a lot of flack. 00:19:21.454 --> 00:19:26.854 Carl's, your boss at Rocket Genius, has given that form of pricing a lot of 00:19:26.854 --> 00:19:30.254 flack, but it's something that's been really working for the Lifter product. 00:19:30.844 --> 00:19:35.264 Because they had such a high tier, their top tier was 1, 200, for people 00:19:35.264 --> 00:19:39.044 to get in at that price was really challenging, and a lot of the add ons 00:19:39.444 --> 00:19:41.274 in that tier are important add ons. 00:19:41.524 --> 00:19:45.804 ways to offer advanced quizzing formats, protecting downloads is 00:19:45.804 --> 00:19:51.544 coming, delivering advanced, I said, quizzes, forms, custom fields, 00:19:51.734 --> 00:19:53.484 playback on video, timing of things. 00:19:53.484 --> 00:19:56.464 A lot of those are, are essential to a course, but it was a 00:19:56.474 --> 00:19:58.434 prohibitively expensive price point. 00:19:58.444 --> 00:20:01.104 So it's interesting to watch that introductory pricing. 00:20:01.114 --> 00:20:04.094 It's something we'll probably end up doing, with Paid Memberships Pro. 00:20:04.394 --> 00:20:07.834 Because it aligns with our mission, to help as many people as possible 00:20:07.834 --> 00:20:11.114 get in, get on board, get set up, and start a business that's 00:20:11.364 --> 00:20:12.694 paying their salary or more. 00:20:13.194 --> 00:20:16.944 So, yeah, we're, they're watching, some ad, we're doing some Google Ads work. 00:20:17.074 --> 00:20:19.794 You connected me with someone in your company to, to talk through 00:20:19.794 --> 00:20:20.814 that, which was really helpful. 00:20:21.084 --> 00:20:24.414 so they're watching our Google Ad, Google paid ads work, and we're just 00:20:24.414 --> 00:20:25.744 sharing all of that back and forth. 00:20:26.214 --> 00:20:26.484 Matt: Cool. 00:20:26.904 --> 00:20:27.144 Yeah. 00:20:27.144 --> 00:20:27.844 You know, I think. 00:20:28.189 --> 00:20:33.389 As a user, you know, the other day, the fine folks at, Publish Press released 00:20:33.419 --> 00:20:39.699 a, like a Kanban board update to their content calendar plugin, and I love it. 00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:43.139 it makes sense, and, you know, I, I gave them just a little flack. 00:20:43.169 --> 00:20:48.439 As an end user, there's a constant, upgrade now bar at the top of the thing. 00:20:48.439 --> 00:20:50.674 And I totally get it, like, there's nothing wrong with it. 00:20:51.474 --> 00:20:56.084 But as a, as a user and somebody who, who kind of like thinks about products a lot, 00:20:56.504 --> 00:21:00.304 I like, that's fine, as long as I can dismiss it, because I feel like if I'm 00:21:00.304 --> 00:21:05.024 using it as, number one, I feel like it just screams at me all the time, like when 00:21:05.024 --> 00:21:06.624 I'm using it because of the color pattern. 00:21:06.924 --> 00:21:10.784 but if I'm, if I'm putting it on a customer site, it also feels like, 00:21:11.334 --> 00:21:14.674 Oh, you're using this thing that's constantly telling me I have to buy it. 00:21:14.884 --> 00:21:16.234 So there's a sense of urgency. 00:21:16.434 --> 00:21:17.884 It's just a inside baseball thing. 00:21:17.884 --> 00:21:22.484 But from a product perspective, I like something that once I get to 00:21:22.484 --> 00:21:26.684 a certain point, I, I can't do the thing I need to do unless I upgrade. 00:21:26.714 --> 00:21:30.074 And that I don't mind because if I'm being successful, like looking at you 00:21:30.084 --> 00:21:32.564 have your free plug in free core plug in. 00:21:32.894 --> 00:21:35.414 And then if I look at the standard, I might be looking 00:21:35.414 --> 00:21:38.714 like, oh, well, I'm finally at a point where affiliate tracking. 00:21:38.714 --> 00:21:38.754 Yeah. 00:21:39.404 --> 00:21:42.084 Is useful to me or membership cards. 00:21:42.144 --> 00:21:42.934 I need that. 00:21:43.234 --> 00:21:47.404 Or if I go into the plus plan, I can do invite only membership. 00:21:47.664 --> 00:21:51.014 A lot of people come to the site, you know, on the, in the context 00:21:51.024 --> 00:21:52.374 of, Oh my God, you're so expensive. 00:21:52.684 --> 00:21:54.204 They look at it and they go five 97 a year. 00:21:54.204 --> 00:21:55.474 I can't afford that. 00:21:55.564 --> 00:21:57.834 Well, you don't need it yet, right? 00:21:57.834 --> 00:22:00.704 You just don't need all these things unless you do, but 00:22:00.754 --> 00:22:01.964 if you're just starting out. 00:22:02.229 --> 00:22:04.319 The free one is going to do it for you. 00:22:04.339 --> 00:22:08.419 And until you get to, okay, I finally need sponsor or group 00:22:08.419 --> 00:22:11.039 accounts because I'm selling so much that that's finally come up. 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:14.269 And Oh, by the way, if you're selling a group account, five 00:22:14.269 --> 00:22:16.139 97 for the year is probably. 00:22:16.409 --> 00:22:20.539 What you're charging that one seat for, you know, minimally 00:22:20.719 --> 00:22:22.099 to get access to this stuff. 00:22:22.099 --> 00:22:28.659 So I like this, I don't need it until, until I'm like forced to get it kind 00:22:28.659 --> 00:22:31.309 of a bad way of saying it, but I don't need it until my business is 00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:33.169 succeeding and then I'll happily upgrade. 00:22:33.419 --> 00:22:34.949 I think that's the smartest way to get there. 00:22:34.949 --> 00:22:38.509 No direct question, but just more of like a statement of how I use software 00:22:38.769 --> 00:22:40.109 and how I like it to be developed. 00:22:40.714 --> 00:22:43.014 Kim: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of intention there. 00:22:43.014 --> 00:22:45.994 There's, if I look at the add ons that are in standard, I think to 00:22:45.994 --> 00:22:47.854 myself, what type of site is this? 00:22:49.019 --> 00:22:51.769 What are they probably charging people like you said? 00:22:52.679 --> 00:22:53.419 What are their goals? 00:22:53.419 --> 00:22:54.599 Where are they going next? 00:22:54.689 --> 00:22:55.729 Can they afford that? 00:22:55.749 --> 00:23:00.649 And as long as we can justify all of that in our conversations internally, 00:23:00.649 --> 00:23:02.479 then we can feel that the price is fair. 00:23:02.729 --> 00:23:04.259 And the same goes for the PLUS plan. 00:23:04.449 --> 00:23:08.239 As it becomes more expensive, the type of site at that tier is like a large 00:23:08.239 --> 00:23:11.309 scale thousand member PLUS association. 00:23:11.349 --> 00:23:15.439 I hope that they're making way more than 597 a year. 00:23:16.149 --> 00:23:18.649 that that's a fraction and a no brainer to them. 00:23:18.849 --> 00:23:23.429 Still, it should be a no brainer, for all that they're getting under one hood. 00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:27.199 piecing things together creates a nightmare, locking yourself 00:23:27.199 --> 00:23:30.889 into a SaaS product that's going to tax you more as you grow. 00:23:30.899 --> 00:23:33.049 That's how all the email marketing platforms work, right? 00:23:33.509 --> 00:23:36.859 I was so successful, my email list grew to a thousand people. 00:23:37.644 --> 00:23:41.044 I'm paying a lot of money a month to a product like Beehive 00:23:41.044 --> 00:23:42.524 or ConvertKit at that stage. 00:23:42.684 --> 00:23:44.464 That's not the case with open source software. 00:23:44.464 --> 00:23:48.714 So, we have to kind of think, who are we also competing against outside of the 00:23:48.714 --> 00:23:52.854 WordPress space, and how do they price things, and how do they tax people or, 00:23:52.944 --> 00:23:55.564 or increase the price as growth happens. 00:23:55.614 --> 00:23:58.579 and, People don't realize that I think from day one, but hopefully 00:23:58.579 --> 00:24:00.869 they, you know, five years in when they're very successful. 00:24:00.869 --> 00:24:03.269 I hope they think back like, wow, I'm still only paying 5. 00:24:03.269 --> 00:24:04.769 97 a year for this thing. 00:24:04.769 --> 00:24:07.669 And I'm, we have sites making millions of dollars a year. 00:24:07.729 --> 00:24:10.449 We can see in Stripe Connect how successful they are, and 00:24:10.449 --> 00:24:13.179 they're not paying us any more than the site that just starting. 00:24:14.224 --> 00:24:15.194 Matt: Let's just take an aside. 00:24:15.214 --> 00:24:17.634 Let's define, we started to, but we kind of got away from it. 00:24:17.634 --> 00:24:21.254 Lifter LMS, certainly in the definition, it's an LMS. 00:24:21.264 --> 00:24:27.154 You, you want to run a course, a highly specific course certification, curriculum, 00:24:27.384 --> 00:24:29.924 lessons, quizzes, all of that stuff. 00:24:30.334 --> 00:24:34.734 Paid Memberships Pro can be used for memberships and it's not just 00:24:35.009 --> 00:24:36.569 Hey, I want to sell a course. 00:24:36.859 --> 00:24:40.509 Hey, I want to give you access to, some protected content. 00:24:40.679 --> 00:24:45.319 How else are you seeing people use it beyond the internet marketing space? 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:48.769 Are other brands or things that we've never heard of 00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:49.969 using it in a different way? 00:24:51.129 --> 00:24:54.589 Kim: we see association type sites where it kind of picks among all of those. 00:24:55.054 --> 00:24:58.584 professional organizations, a bar association, if you, if you could 00:24:58.584 --> 00:25:02.454 think to that, a trade association, homebuilders of Pennsylvania. 00:25:02.454 --> 00:25:05.354 They don't, they're not our customer, but it is an example of 00:25:05.394 --> 00:25:08.754 a different type of membership site that's not strictly content driven. 00:25:09.054 --> 00:25:12.344 we do have some people that are creating paid newsletters, through our system. 00:25:12.344 --> 00:25:15.014 So that is something you can start to do now, I think, with ConvertKit, 00:25:15.294 --> 00:25:17.654 charge for, for your newsletter. 00:25:17.654 --> 00:25:20.854 But we often see that that's just one piece of the puzzle and there's 00:25:20.854 --> 00:25:22.444 no home for people to come back to. 00:25:22.444 --> 00:25:23.314 So I think. 00:25:23.544 --> 00:25:27.274 A membership site works best when you have content that you're delivering 00:25:27.324 --> 00:25:31.014 of different formats, and you want to protect it under one roof. 00:25:31.114 --> 00:25:34.934 Matt: Do you have anybody, do you have anybody using it at like reselling 00:25:34.934 --> 00:25:36.194 the membership functionality? 00:25:36.849 --> 00:25:37.199 Kim: We do. 00:25:37.199 --> 00:25:41.209 We have a multi site add on that lets people sell and create 00:25:41.209 --> 00:25:42.699 a site as part of Checkout. 00:25:42.699 --> 00:25:46.329 So, people have set it up that way that they, it's almost like a 00:25:46.469 --> 00:25:51.009 WordPress, maintenance or hosted, managed WordPress under one hood. 00:25:51.009 --> 00:25:54.599 So people could, buy and purchase their site at Checkout automatically 00:25:54.599 --> 00:25:56.409 gets created for them, is one way. 00:25:56.409 --> 00:25:57.729 We do have an affiliate program ourself. 00:25:57.729 --> 00:25:58.218 We like that. 00:25:58.379 --> 00:26:01.659 Better when the customer is the buyer of their own license. 00:26:01.669 --> 00:26:04.549 So, we haven't done things like white labeling, and stuff like 00:26:04.549 --> 00:26:05.909 that, but it's been talked about. 00:26:06.164 --> 00:26:06.444 Matt: Yeah. 00:26:07.104 --> 00:26:09.754 yeah, I think it's important to clarify that. 00:26:10.124 --> 00:26:13.484 You know, the different the two different like use cases and the paths 00:26:13.484 --> 00:26:17.164 that one can go down, and the reasons why, you know, you should use it. 00:26:17.164 --> 00:26:20.014 I think Lifter has, I was just looking the other day. 00:26:20.579 --> 00:26:24.429 I don't know, I think, was it like video chapters or something like that? 00:26:24.429 --> 00:26:26.819 So if you're embedding videos, I think there's an add on to 00:26:26.819 --> 00:26:28.689 like enhance, like video stuff. 00:26:28.689 --> 00:26:32.319 And that's the kind of thing that I'm like, okay, this is like full blown. 00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:35.249 Like you're teaching a course, you need all of that stuff. 00:26:35.969 --> 00:26:36.939 That's lifter. 00:26:37.049 --> 00:26:42.134 And then if you need the membership, for content, for recurring payments. 00:26:42.144 --> 00:26:45.774 You don't need to be teaching somebody this in depth course that's paid 00:26:45.774 --> 00:26:47.614 memberships pro, at least in my head. 00:26:48.084 --> 00:26:49.494 Kim: I mean you could use the two together. 00:26:49.724 --> 00:26:52.784 We have like a streamlined compatibility now that was something we developed. 00:26:52.784 --> 00:26:54.674 So, people use us alongside LearnDash. 00:26:54.704 --> 00:26:56.274 People use us alongside LifterLMS. 00:26:56.724 --> 00:26:57.734 it's tough. 00:26:57.734 --> 00:26:59.444 Choosing your software mix is tough. 00:26:59.444 --> 00:27:02.244 It'll always be a problem with WordPress when it's the DIY 00:27:02.464 --> 00:27:04.094 person searching the repository. 00:27:04.449 --> 00:27:08.979 Reading top 10 plugins for xlists and getting really confused. 00:27:08.989 --> 00:27:11.689 we often see people like install two membership plugins when you don't 00:27:11.689 --> 00:27:15.634 need to like there's conflicts that people create because it's It's 00:27:15.634 --> 00:27:19.904 hard to identify where one plug in's functionality ends and another begins. 00:27:20.094 --> 00:27:23.504 And then we see plug ins kind of all calling themselves a membership plug in. 00:27:23.584 --> 00:27:27.954 an example of that was the WP User Avatar that rebranded to ProfilePress 00:27:27.974 --> 00:27:29.824 and now is a, is a membership plug in. 00:27:29.824 --> 00:27:33.324 And, it was a largely used Avatar only plug in. 00:27:33.474 --> 00:27:36.874 We recommended it, and then all of a sudden they were like, we want to be a 00:27:36.874 --> 00:27:38.354 membership plug in, so we're going to add. 00:27:39.599 --> 00:27:42.519 Call ourselves profile press and add some features in and it was 00:27:42.519 --> 00:27:45.609 just a strange experience, but we're still seeing it happen. 00:27:45.924 --> 00:27:46.214 Matt: Yeah. 00:27:46.714 --> 00:27:51.654 that another great segue into another, section we can talk about consolidation 00:27:51.794 --> 00:27:55.354 competition in the market we talked about, or you mentioned, sensei, 00:27:56.374 --> 00:27:58.344 from automatic and automatic product. 00:27:59.144 --> 00:28:00.244 What, what's your thoughts? 00:28:00.694 --> 00:28:03.104 What's your feelings on competition in the space? 00:28:03.334 --> 00:28:04.934 We just said, it's hard to pick the stack. 00:28:04.944 --> 00:28:06.544 It can get confusing for an end user. 00:28:06.544 --> 00:28:08.804 There's a lot of choices at the same time. 00:28:09.099 --> 00:28:12.929 Probably not a lot of competition when you look at the real world and 00:28:12.929 --> 00:28:16.599 you zoom out and you look at SAS marketplace or software at large. 00:28:17.049 --> 00:28:18.469 What's your thoughts on competition? 00:28:18.469 --> 00:28:20.539 What's your thoughts on competition from the mothership? 00:28:20.779 --> 00:28:24.319 How do you think about it now versus maybe when, you know, 10 years ago 00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:28.109 when the market was like super hot and everyone was launching something 00:28:28.119 --> 00:28:30.099 every other day, do you have a shift? 00:28:30.099 --> 00:28:32.869 Do you feel much more grounded these days? 00:28:32.869 --> 00:28:35.719 Do you feel much more confident, in where your position is? 00:28:37.899 --> 00:28:42.339 Kim: I, I think I don't, I, I think, it's, it's a challenge to 00:28:42.419 --> 00:28:47.869 understand where automatic is going, where, you know, this whole move 00:28:47.869 --> 00:28:50.709 toward agency stuff is, is curious. 00:28:50.759 --> 00:28:54.000 Um, I think it's, it's a challenge to understand where, you know, this whole 00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:54.658 move toward agency stuff is, is curious. 00:28:55.248 --> 00:28:58.468 Growing to something more and it feels like something that gets started 00:28:58.468 --> 00:29:03.178 and then kind of punted to be looked at later, which is interesting. 00:29:03.318 --> 00:29:06.188 I, I then the whole, like, if you got me onto the wordpress. 00:29:06.188 --> 00:29:07.168 com wordpress. 00:29:07.188 --> 00:29:12.338 org plugins listings thing, I think that has created confusion for users. 00:29:12.468 --> 00:29:15.078 we saw that conversation about search ranking and seeing. 00:29:15.338 --> 00:29:18.488 com results come up, they're still coming up for me before. 00:29:18.498 --> 00:29:19.808 org rankings, which. 00:29:20.858 --> 00:29:22.028 is I don't know. 00:29:22.028 --> 00:29:23.238 It's gonna keep happening. 00:29:23.238 --> 00:29:27.328 So, I guess I'm, we're starting to look outside of WordPress and the 00:29:27.368 --> 00:29:31.018 competition within WordPress and look, like you said, look outside 00:29:31.018 --> 00:29:32.828 to the grander scale of things. 00:29:33.288 --> 00:29:33.788 I don't know. 00:29:35.528 --> 00:29:35.638 Matt: The, 00:29:35.678 --> 00:29:38.838 Kim: be nice when you look at like a product like WooCommerce, it was 00:29:38.838 --> 00:29:44.558 just right time for it to become the e commerce platform for WordPress. 00:29:45.088 --> 00:29:47.168 And now there is no one. 00:29:47.753 --> 00:29:52.243 Membership plugin for WordPress and, and who can make that decision? 00:29:52.413 --> 00:29:53.453 Who can make that call? 00:29:53.503 --> 00:29:54.733 It's really a challenge. 00:29:54.733 --> 00:29:56.813 There are enough users for all of us to go around. 00:29:57.303 --> 00:29:59.713 I don't think a membership plugin will ever reach the 00:30:00.273 --> 00:30:02.953 scale of WooCommerce itself. 00:30:03.343 --> 00:30:06.313 Matt: Yeah, there's a, an interesting thing happening in 00:30:06.313 --> 00:30:07.763 the, in the podcasting world. 00:30:07.763 --> 00:30:11.313 Cause I world, cause I follow that still really closely, for obvious 00:30:11.313 --> 00:30:15.283 reasons, but I, I also really just like, I love open source for WordPress. 00:30:15.283 --> 00:30:17.033 I love open source for podcasting. 00:30:17.033 --> 00:30:19.833 I think the two are very important for humanity. 00:30:20.143 --> 00:30:24.363 but Spotify, they acquired anchor many, many years ago. 00:30:24.553 --> 00:30:27.393 and they've, and then they rolled that into what they called Spotify 00:30:27.403 --> 00:30:29.703 for podcasters, where you could go and record your podcast, 00:30:29.703 --> 00:30:30.773 just like you could with anchor. 00:30:31.153 --> 00:30:33.373 With Spotify and they just killed that off. 00:30:34.043 --> 00:30:36.183 So now the industry is like. 00:30:36.753 --> 00:30:38.503 Cause that was like the automatic solution, right? 00:30:38.513 --> 00:30:42.193 That might be, that might have been like the sensei in the LMS world. 00:30:42.193 --> 00:30:45.473 Like, Oh yeah, it's, it helps you create a membership, but it's nowhere 00:30:45.473 --> 00:30:49.403 near what you're going to do with paid memberships pro or lift their LMS. 00:30:49.403 --> 00:30:51.423 And certainly nowhere near if you combine the two. 00:30:51.803 --> 00:30:54.313 So it was always largely looked at like, ah, yeah, I did this thing. 00:30:55.063 --> 00:30:58.763 60 percent of like what other podcast hosting companies could do. 00:30:59.053 --> 00:31:01.433 And then you have all the different fragmentation of podcast hosting 00:31:01.433 --> 00:31:04.873 companies, largely just doing RSS feeds, but there's, there's, there's They 00:31:04.873 --> 00:31:07.823 all have like their little accessory features that go alongside of it. 00:31:07.833 --> 00:31:09.553 So the experience is, is different. 00:31:10.003 --> 00:31:11.923 but now the industry is like, who the hell is going to take over? 00:31:11.923 --> 00:31:16.833 Like the, the free version of, of podcasting, because that was as much 00:31:16.833 --> 00:31:20.233 as everybody, you know, railed against Spotify and what they were doing with 00:31:20.233 --> 00:31:22.173 podcasting and trying to own podcasting. 00:31:23.613 --> 00:31:28.553 That was also a huge on ramp for like amateur podcasters to be like, okay, 00:31:28.553 --> 00:31:30.223 this thing's free and I can record here. 00:31:30.223 --> 00:31:31.793 And that got people into the space. 00:31:32.343 --> 00:31:35.853 Sort of like what Automatic could, should do, right? 00:31:35.863 --> 00:31:37.473 It'd be like, oh yeah, we'll help you get in. 00:31:37.763 --> 00:31:39.853 And then, by the way, here's paid memberships pro when 00:31:39.853 --> 00:31:41.253 you want to go up, right? 00:31:41.253 --> 00:31:42.013 When you want to move up. 00:31:42.503 --> 00:31:46.743 so now the, the podcast world is, is in a bit of like, what, what, what is going to 00:31:46.753 --> 00:31:48.823 happen now that the free thing is gone? 00:31:49.223 --> 00:31:51.093 That we, that we all kind of needed. 00:31:51.523 --> 00:31:54.153 you know, and, and I see it with Automatic, with the agency stuff. 00:31:54.183 --> 00:31:54.583 Yes. 00:31:55.203 --> 00:31:59.833 One of those things too, where I was like, For years, why doesn't Automatic 00:31:59.843 --> 00:32:03.133 in WordPress work more with us, right? 00:32:03.263 --> 00:32:07.073 We're the ones building it, but now that they have that suite of, of 00:32:07.093 --> 00:32:11.033 plugins, you know, you can probably assume that if they're walking into 00:32:11.033 --> 00:32:15.173 an agency, they're gonna be like WooCommerce, Lifter, like these are the, 00:32:15.183 --> 00:32:19.713 Jetpack, these are the things you'll, yeah, Sensei, I said Lifter, Sensei, 00:32:19.714 --> 00:32:23.353 Jetpack, these are the things you're gonna use, and now that becomes, all 00:32:23.353 --> 00:32:25.263 right, well, that's a little scary. 00:32:26.938 --> 00:32:28.578 For us indies that are out there. 00:32:28.768 --> 00:32:28.998 you know, 00:32:29.173 --> 00:32:34.393 Kim: with the awesome motive products, you know the incest of recommending each 00:32:34.393 --> 00:32:37.673 one to each other, you know, it's like um 00:32:38.108 --> 00:32:38.578 Matt: Can that be the 00:32:38.643 --> 00:32:39.033 Kim: okay. 00:32:39.033 --> 00:32:39.623 I get it. 00:32:39.703 --> 00:32:44.683 I totally get it, you know And stellar and and the liquid web brands like I 00:32:44.703 --> 00:32:49.043 totally get it It's just it's where we are now And I think it took it took 00:32:49.043 --> 00:32:53.493 me a while to wake up and see it and now that I do I think my relationship 00:32:53.883 --> 00:32:56.893 To WordPress itself is changing. 00:32:56.893 --> 00:32:59.573 And I'm, you know, I'm like, now we're business people. 00:33:00.013 --> 00:33:04.983 We're not open source community people hanging out in the hallway, you know? 00:33:04.983 --> 00:33:05.723 And that's okay. 00:33:06.043 --> 00:33:07.573 It took, we had to get here. 00:33:07.693 --> 00:33:09.883 It's an evolution and may swing back. 00:33:09.883 --> 00:33:10.443 We don't know. 00:33:10.843 --> 00:33:11.303 I don't know. 00:33:11.928 --> 00:33:15.658 Matt: So how does that change your, how does that change your perspective? 00:33:15.828 --> 00:33:20.438 This recent article from, make or blog posts from the make team talking 00:33:20.438 --> 00:33:25.538 about the decline in, WordPress events, fewer and fewer unique users. 00:33:25.828 --> 00:33:30.368 How do you see yourself connecting with the community that, you know, 00:33:30.368 --> 00:33:32.768 like you said, we used to all just be in the hallway together hanging out, 00:33:32.768 --> 00:33:36.158 but now things are getting a little bit more serious again, consolidation. 00:33:36.768 --> 00:33:37.998 Maybe less competition. 00:33:37.998 --> 00:33:39.118 So now we all have to. 00:33:39.833 --> 00:33:41.843 Start getting a little bit more serious with this stuff. 00:33:41.843 --> 00:33:43.843 How does that change your perspective? 00:33:43.853 --> 00:33:46.913 Like, do you, do you feel different going to those events? 00:33:46.913 --> 00:33:50.773 Do you think like now you kind of step outside the WordPress world 00:33:50.773 --> 00:33:55.873 and go to like other events or do other marketing initiatives that 00:33:55.933 --> 00:33:58.683 aren't traditional to WordPress without giving away the secret sauce? 00:33:59.683 --> 00:34:03.453 Kim: I think that would be, we are looking at other events to attend and. 00:34:04.698 --> 00:34:05.468 Sponsor. 00:34:05.568 --> 00:34:09.478 We're looking outside of sponsoring WordPress events themselves 00:34:09.478 --> 00:34:12.868 and, and looking at, you know, other places where people that 00:34:12.868 --> 00:34:14.438 use our product are hanging out. 00:34:14.728 --> 00:34:19.948 you joke a lot about the size of the WordPress news audience, and it's a finite 00:34:20.048 --> 00:34:23.968 group of people that care and want to listen to and consume what you're doing. 00:34:23.988 --> 00:34:26.378 I think the same is true within the community. 00:34:26.658 --> 00:34:29.418 If they don't know about Paid Memberships Pro yet, that's okay. 00:34:29.598 --> 00:34:31.888 I don't think that they're out there building membership plugins, 00:34:32.058 --> 00:34:33.408 or building membership sites. 00:34:33.418 --> 00:34:36.858 So does it make sense for us to always be a part of this anymore? 00:34:36.868 --> 00:34:37.078 I don't know. 00:34:37.078 --> 00:34:41.268 I think I'm getting to a place where maybe I bring a tinge of bitterness that the 00:34:41.268 --> 00:34:45.458 newer entrants to the WordPress community don't need to hear or be a part of. 00:34:46.278 --> 00:34:49.568 And I'm, there is a youth in WordPress. 00:34:49.588 --> 00:34:51.238 There is a growing number of people. 00:34:51.238 --> 00:34:52.238 I'm in my 40s. 00:34:52.258 --> 00:34:56.073 There's people in their 20s that show their enthusiasm In more 00:34:56.073 --> 00:34:58.683 ways than I can today provide. 00:34:58.923 --> 00:35:03.143 when I look at international camps and, you know, in Asia, the vibrant communities 00:35:03.143 --> 00:35:05.523 there, I think it used to, it's migrated. 00:35:05.523 --> 00:35:08.013 We used to have this young WordPress community in the United States. 00:35:08.023 --> 00:35:09.033 I don't think we're here anymore. 00:35:09.033 --> 00:35:11.183 I think we're more international and that's good. 00:35:11.203 --> 00:35:14.503 That's like another evolution that I'm happy to see happening. 00:35:14.843 --> 00:35:17.343 And it doesn't necessarily include me or disclude me. 00:35:17.343 --> 00:35:19.823 I can participate it at will when I want. 00:35:19.823 --> 00:35:21.583 And I can step back too and let the. 00:35:21.918 --> 00:35:26.088 The new generation not be tainted by my bitterness, right? 00:35:26.868 --> 00:35:29.493 Matt: You know, I, at the beginning of the year, I, speculated that 00:35:29.493 --> 00:35:32.643 we would see a new entrant into the, into the WordPress community 00:35:32.643 --> 00:35:34.383 and those that are non developers. 00:35:34.383 --> 00:35:39.443 And just so happened, this kid, young kid named Mark Zemanski fell into the WP 00:35:39.443 --> 00:35:45.663 minute, Slack, and he was a, he's a guy that started in WordPress with Elementor, 00:35:45.783 --> 00:35:47.303 I don't know, five or six years ago. 00:35:47.573 --> 00:35:48.323 he live streams a lot. 00:35:48.323 --> 00:35:49.673 He let you co host with me at work. 00:35:49.723 --> 00:35:52.143 We'll be live streaming, actually think tomorrow or the next day. 00:35:52.568 --> 00:35:58.388 And, he's a guy who came in never cracking open a code editor, didn't have to, you 00:35:58.388 --> 00:36:02.068 know, edit functions, PHP, like you and I had to do, or probably still have to 00:36:02.068 --> 00:36:06.978 do on some of our sites, never even saw that and just came in through Elementor. 00:36:06.998 --> 00:36:11.468 Now he's a, he's using, he's using bricks and I know there's a lot of fan 00:36:11.468 --> 00:36:16.178 favorites in the, in the page builder world, but there's like this reality that. 00:36:16.478 --> 00:36:18.958 You know, just like when our parents or grandparents used to say, like, I 00:36:18.958 --> 00:36:21.558 used to walk to school, like, well, we don't need to walk to school anymore. 00:36:21.938 --> 00:36:22.128 Right? 00:36:22.388 --> 00:36:25.408 And there's these users that are like, I don't need to write code. 00:36:25.408 --> 00:36:28.068 I don't want to, like, I want to enjoy using WordPress. 00:36:28.068 --> 00:36:29.418 Just let me enjoy using WordPress. 00:36:29.418 --> 00:36:30.388 Isn't that half the battle? 00:36:30.428 --> 00:36:30.848 Yes. 00:36:31.588 --> 00:36:35.048 So just let me use my element or my bricks or my beaver builder, whatever. 00:36:35.448 --> 00:36:38.628 And let me just do my thing without having to do it the hard way. 00:36:38.638 --> 00:36:40.208 And I think that's a reality. 00:36:40.538 --> 00:36:43.628 That's what Gutenberg and site editor as much as we're using. 00:36:44.288 --> 00:36:46.848 Pulling our hair out about it at some levels. 00:36:47.108 --> 00:36:51.868 That's what that's getting to in a slow, tires tirelessly aggravating pace. 00:36:52.268 --> 00:36:54.268 but that's what people want, man. 00:36:54.448 --> 00:36:58.338 And we just have to embrace it and, and work with it because I think, 00:36:58.348 --> 00:37:02.268 like you said before, when you see Elementor, Just by the numbers. 00:37:02.278 --> 00:37:03.198 Everyone's using it. 00:37:03.428 --> 00:37:03.768 You go. 00:37:04.078 --> 00:37:05.228 That's what the market wants. 00:37:05.568 --> 00:37:07.018 So I'm going to support it. 00:37:07.238 --> 00:37:11.668 I'm sorry It's business and this is how we're gonna work So again, yeah 100 00:37:11.669 --> 00:37:15.868 percent I agree with you There's this whole new wave of people coming in that 00:37:15.908 --> 00:37:19.248 are experiencing WordPress for the first time and they're not doing it like you and 00:37:19.248 --> 00:37:24.128 I used to do it, but so what we can we can help them right and we can share with them 00:37:24.198 --> 00:37:27.718 Like the most positive side of it, which is the open source side of it to a degree. 00:37:28.238 --> 00:37:31.828 Kim: Yeah, I mean Speaking of page builders chris badgett's wife built 00:37:31.828 --> 00:37:36.868 a website and from the from start used the site editor used The block 00:37:36.868 --> 00:37:42.388 editor and chris observed her having zero friction Building her website and 00:37:42.448 --> 00:37:46.878 it looks great and it does what she wants and she's capable of editing it 00:37:46.888 --> 00:37:50.588 and she's not afraid and that's the experience that we're not having because 00:37:50.588 --> 00:37:55.283 we've had to like learn something new and change is hard and You know, it, 00:37:55.433 --> 00:37:59.468 it happened without our input, you know, all, all of these things that we. 00:37:59.808 --> 00:38:02.948 We as I say we like you and I and people who have been in WordPress 00:38:02.978 --> 00:38:09.028 for 15 18 years are feeling about the direction It's not what's the end user 00:38:09.058 --> 00:38:11.278 like Mark or Sam are experiencing. 00:38:11.428 --> 00:38:14.908 So we have to just accept that that's okay 00:38:15.238 --> 00:38:19.878 Matt: Yeah You DHH from Basecamp or 37 signals. 00:38:19.878 --> 00:38:21.228 I forget what they call themselves now. 00:38:21.858 --> 00:38:26.128 He put out a pretty good piece, whether you like the guy or not, but he put out 00:38:26.129 --> 00:38:30.528 a good thing, a good piece about open source and pretty much says like it's 00:38:30.528 --> 00:38:36.098 open source, it doesn't mean that you have a say in, in absolutely everything 00:38:36.108 --> 00:38:38.188 or the, or the complete direction. 00:38:38.238 --> 00:38:39.908 And I agree with that. 00:38:40.878 --> 00:38:43.118 And I, I'm still struggling, still wrestling. 00:38:43.118 --> 00:38:44.648 Cause I have this debate with Mark all the time. 00:38:44.658 --> 00:38:45.608 I'm still wrestling with. 00:38:45.993 --> 00:38:51.503 How to portray this without sounding, too, commercial, it's not that even the right 00:38:51.503 --> 00:38:54.081 word, but it's almost like, I love word. 00:38:54.081 --> 00:38:57.383 I love WordPress because it's open source and I love open source because 00:38:57.383 --> 00:38:59.393 we, we, we can have a say in it. 00:38:59.394 --> 00:39:01.373 It doesn't mean that we'll get accepted. 00:39:01.373 --> 00:39:04.193 So on one hand, I love the fact that I, I can have a say in it. 00:39:04.563 --> 00:39:07.323 The other hand, I know that I'm not going to obviously get everything 00:39:07.323 --> 00:39:08.673 that I can, that I'm asking for. 00:39:09.033 --> 00:39:13.073 But at the same time, I'm not ultra worried about. 00:39:13.858 --> 00:39:20.278 Like the automatic mothership thing, because at the same time, like I'm reaping 00:39:20.278 --> 00:39:22.748 the benefits from open source as well. 00:39:22.758 --> 00:39:27.658 So it's almost like respect, open source, take from open source 00:39:27.678 --> 00:39:29.348 and give back to open source. 00:39:29.348 --> 00:39:34.878 I'm like at this like trifecta thing right now where like, you can, you 00:39:34.878 --> 00:39:36.198 can still reap the benefits from it. 00:39:36.248 --> 00:39:37.378 It's, it's okay. 00:39:37.638 --> 00:39:41.718 But as long as you respect it and give back at some capacity and then 00:39:41.728 --> 00:39:45.628 take Stuff away from it, which a lot of us do like we're selling websites. 00:39:45.818 --> 00:39:46.728 We're selling plugins. 00:39:46.738 --> 00:39:51.348 We are gaining from it You know, but we just can't have everything. 00:39:51.768 --> 00:39:54.958 I don't know at the end of the day It's this weird thing that we're at. 00:39:55.008 --> 00:40:01.268 Kim: I I think to peace with that is necessary, and, and something I think 00:40:01.268 --> 00:40:05.468 Jason struggles with, when he, he feels like sensitive about it, and he gets 00:40:05.468 --> 00:40:08.918 emotional about it, and it's good, he should, and in our kitchen we have, you 00:40:08.918 --> 00:40:14.048 know, conversations that are hard, and it's somewhat sad, and it's interesting, 00:40:14.058 --> 00:40:17.648 and he'll, he'll want to go public with things, and, and post things on Twitter, 00:40:17.648 --> 00:40:20.943 and I'm very much like, You know, no, I think it was Eric who posted recently on 00:40:20.943 --> 00:40:25.423 the WP minute site Like that this like clickbait and this like needing to be 00:40:25.423 --> 00:40:30.893 outraged like it just has to end From the bigger voices in the wordpress space The 00:40:30.903 --> 00:40:36.958 negative criticism like let's just like tone it down a little, you know Accept 00:40:37.008 --> 00:40:41.298 where things are and the direction they're going or stake a, put a stake in the 00:40:41.298 --> 00:40:43.058 line of the sand and go change something. 00:40:43.058 --> 00:40:45.648 Like you can hook into WordPress in so many ways. 00:40:47.038 --> 00:40:49.538 Most of what you're upset about can probably be fixed 00:40:49.538 --> 00:40:50.738 with your own custom code. 00:40:50.738 --> 00:40:53.148 And if enough people come along board with you, then maybe it 00:40:53.148 --> 00:40:54.498 becomes part of core eventually. 00:40:54.498 --> 00:40:55.728 Like that's what you said. 00:40:55.728 --> 00:40:56.528 That's the beauty of it. 00:40:56.848 --> 00:40:57.888 Take what you want from it. 00:40:58.298 --> 00:40:59.328 Build off of it. 00:40:59.808 --> 00:41:01.508 It, it's yours to do that with. 00:41:01.868 --> 00:41:06.558 sitting around feeling sad and sour grapes is, is not where you should be. 00:41:06.648 --> 00:41:07.888 That's a sick way to live. 00:41:08.358 --> 00:41:11.298 Matt: and it's hard because we're probably I mean product 00:41:11.298 --> 00:41:13.948 space is super opinionated Right. 00:41:13.948 --> 00:41:15.578 And then you mix in social media and it's like, we're all 00:41:15.578 --> 00:41:17.008 building products to some degree. 00:41:17.008 --> 00:41:20.098 Like we're all branding, marketing, building a product. 00:41:20.278 --> 00:41:25.938 So it's very easy for, you know, I say a lot of us, but a hundred, a hundred 00:41:25.938 --> 00:41:30.338 ish people who actually like jump in and say things, you know, on Twitter. 00:41:30.658 --> 00:41:33.688 it's very easy for us, you know, to do that, because we, you know, we 00:41:33.688 --> 00:41:38.718 are very opinionated, but I think we're at it's such a monolithic 00:41:40.748 --> 00:41:42.738 piece of software and community community now. 00:41:42.799 --> 00:41:51.118 It would really take something massive in order for people to really revolt, right? 00:41:51.118 --> 00:41:58.669 People revolting about, you know, how the Gutenberg block sidebar hides 00:41:58.669 --> 00:42:00.509 the typography unless you expand it. 00:42:00.509 --> 00:42:03.459 Like, why isn't that just open all the time, right? 00:42:03.639 --> 00:42:06.919 But you can't, we're not going to win those arguments and that's not the thing 00:42:06.919 --> 00:42:10.299 that you're going to just like die on a hill for, you know, eventually it's 00:42:10.299 --> 00:42:11.799 going to get fixed, you know, it will. 00:42:11.799 --> 00:42:13.379 So just like, let's all just move on. 00:42:13.699 --> 00:42:16.399 And I think it would take something massive. 00:42:16.419 --> 00:42:18.199 It would have to be something massive. 00:42:18.639 --> 00:42:23.029 And that is the safe, that would be the safeguards of open source at that point. 00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:24.599 I don't know what that massive thing is. 00:42:24.819 --> 00:42:25.509 I have no idea. 00:42:25.509 --> 00:42:30.469 It would have to be like open AI, like an open AI integration into 00:42:30.519 --> 00:42:35.759 core WordPress where you'd be like, wait a minute, what the hell is this? 00:42:36.049 --> 00:42:40.799 You know, I, I don't want this in my, in my WordPress or it'd have to 00:42:40.799 --> 00:42:43.279 be something massive to really have. 00:42:43.724 --> 00:42:46.704 People stand up and revolt or change things in WordPress. 00:42:46.704 --> 00:42:48.214 So the little stuff 00:42:48.409 --> 00:42:51.559 Kim: I mean, from the hosts and the products, the users, every 00:42:51.559 --> 00:42:55.029 angle has people championing and, and pushing it forward. 00:42:55.419 --> 00:42:56.699 not just the project itself. 00:42:56.699 --> 00:42:57.849 So, yeah, I agree with you. 00:42:59.034 --> 00:43:01.814 Matt: did you have anybody complain about price increase when you raised it? 00:43:02.739 --> 00:43:07.019 Kim: One person email we well, this is the graceful way to increase prices. 00:43:07.019 --> 00:43:10.529 Here you go the 30 second pitch we email people in advance. 00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:12.259 We let them know the date that it's happening. 00:43:12.259 --> 00:43:16.689 We honor legacy prices We sometimes run a sale But this time we didn't to get people 00:43:16.689 --> 00:43:21.019 in as if they can at the current price Before the prices go up and if people ask 00:43:21.019 --> 00:43:24.979 later, we usually give them the old price So those are just like the most graceful 00:43:24.979 --> 00:43:27.394 way to increase prices Go to sleep at night without feeling like an ass. 00:43:27.934 --> 00:43:31.214 so some one person emailed and said you highly overestimate the value of your 00:43:31.214 --> 00:43:35.994 product one person And I was like, I think we highly underestimate it, you know, i'm 00:43:35.994 --> 00:43:39.414 thinking we didn't write them back We just let them their email go into the trash, 00:43:39.414 --> 00:43:44.797 you know, so no not so far there's always a lull after a price increase and a lot of 00:43:44.797 --> 00:43:48.049 that is just like The way people buy and the way people make software decisions. 00:43:48.059 --> 00:43:50.419 So, sure there's people that come to the site, see the price, 00:43:50.419 --> 00:43:51.859 check out, immediately go. 00:43:52.599 --> 00:43:56.769 A lot of people begin at the free level, 10 percent of them upgrade to a paid plan. 00:43:57.089 --> 00:44:00.789 I think it's about 50 50 whether people buy just outright or 00:44:00.789 --> 00:44:02.149 sign up for the free first. 00:44:02.694 --> 00:44:04.874 those are weird numbers that don't make sense in the way that I told them. 00:44:05.144 --> 00:44:07.724 but there is always a lull because a lot of people are 00:44:07.724 --> 00:44:09.594 making these decisions slowly. 00:44:09.844 --> 00:44:12.794 They might have, other stakeholders involved that they're getting on board. 00:44:12.794 --> 00:44:16.304 So if two weeks ago they went to the pricing page and they were one price, and 00:44:16.304 --> 00:44:17.634 they come back to buy, it's different. 00:44:17.774 --> 00:44:19.354 They begin those conversations. 00:44:19.364 --> 00:44:21.764 They begin that mental wrestling again. 00:44:22.014 --> 00:44:23.284 So there's always a lull right after. 00:44:23.284 --> 00:44:24.084 It's about a week long. 00:44:24.084 --> 00:44:24.464 We're not even. 00:44:25.429 --> 00:44:25.889 A week out. 00:44:25.889 --> 00:44:28.609 We're almost at a week from, from it, having done it. 00:44:28.609 --> 00:44:32.459 So, we'll see long term if we stay at this price and how long we 00:44:32.459 --> 00:44:34.879 stay here, but, no major pushback. 00:44:34.879 --> 00:44:37.699 I'll say just the, the fear and uncertainty that me and 00:44:37.699 --> 00:44:39.259 Jason have after doing it. 00:44:39.524 --> 00:44:40.240 Matt: yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:44:40.240 --> 00:44:44.424 Do you, do you, have you both identified a seasonality to the business? 00:44:44.664 --> 00:44:45.864 I mean, you guys have been at it for a while. 00:44:45.864 --> 00:44:50.144 I don't know if you've seen a significant pattern, holidays, new year, summertime. 00:44:50.259 --> 00:44:53.359 Kim: It gets quiet after Black Friday, which is a natural time. 00:44:53.359 --> 00:44:54.779 May is usually slow. 00:44:54.879 --> 00:44:59.249 we've insulated ourself from seasonality by running seasonal sales, which we 00:44:59.259 --> 00:45:00.669 have some articles on our site about. 00:45:00.859 --> 00:45:06.219 but we're stopping all sales until Black Friday, unless things go terribly wrong. 00:45:06.229 --> 00:45:09.269 But, we have enough recurring revenue to, to keep the cash flow fine. 00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:14.059 But, we, we would use those sales to perk up quiet months that we 00:45:14.059 --> 00:45:15.859 saw in the year pre, previous. 00:45:15.869 --> 00:45:18.949 So it's pretty regular now, except for that outsized November. 00:45:20.179 --> 00:45:20.509 I don't know. 00:45:20.509 --> 00:45:23.659 I guess when you're an international, serve an international audience, 00:45:23.899 --> 00:45:26.549 seasonality isn't as big of a thing. 00:45:26.549 --> 00:45:27.879 Do you see it at your, at your company? 00:45:27.879 --> 00:45:29.689 Are you into the numbers? 00:45:29.739 --> 00:45:30.879 Do they let you see that stuff? 00:45:31.044 --> 00:45:31.694 Matt: No, I don't see. 00:45:32.189 --> 00:45:32.609 Kim: Okay. 00:45:33.924 --> 00:45:36.864 Matt: Guy with microphone does not get access to, 00:45:38.059 --> 00:45:38.619 Kim: Reports. 00:45:38.774 --> 00:45:39.404 Matt: reports. 00:45:39.654 --> 00:45:42.944 but no, I mean, I know about, I've only been there just over a year, but 00:45:42.954 --> 00:45:44.744 obviously Black Friday is massive. 00:45:44.804 --> 00:45:45.404 that I know. 00:45:45.549 --> 00:45:48.709 but I don't, I'm not privy to any of the sales logs or anything like that. 00:45:48.719 --> 00:45:51.709 He would show me if I asked, but I don't, I don't want to know. 00:45:51.709 --> 00:45:56.479 I don't want to slip up if I ever get captured, by some other form company. 00:45:56.769 --> 00:45:58.379 I don't want to be the guy that knows any information. 00:45:58.859 --> 00:46:02.209 you have this bullet point on the, on the end of your document. 00:46:02.904 --> 00:46:05.444 By the way, if you don't mind, I'll copy and paste this into the show 00:46:05.444 --> 00:46:07.784 notes because I think there's a lot of other great takeaways here. 00:46:08.144 --> 00:46:10.324 but planning ahead for introductory pricing. 00:46:10.674 --> 00:46:11.534 let's break this down. 00:46:11.564 --> 00:46:14.624 Avoid the always on sale look, which I think you just mentioned. 00:46:14.644 --> 00:46:17.604 Avoid the always on sale look for false, scarcity. 00:46:17.984 --> 00:46:23.121 is that something that you, You tried and that's basically like first year 97 00:46:23.121 --> 00:46:25.731 and then next year is one 97 customers. 00:46:25.731 --> 00:46:26.741 Like what the hell just happened? 00:46:26.741 --> 00:46:27.731 I thought it was 97. 00:46:28.141 --> 00:46:31.281 is that your take on false scarcity? 00:46:31.961 --> 00:46:32.341 Kim: Yeah. 00:46:32.441 --> 00:46:35.661 The false scarcity to me is the, the countdown timers. 00:46:35.851 --> 00:46:36.371 Matt: Oh, okay. 00:46:36.711 --> 00:46:37.111 Got it. 00:46:37.921 --> 00:46:38.281 Kim: like 00:46:38.611 --> 00:46:39.311 Matt: Get it before it 00:46:39.361 --> 00:46:42.381 Kim: FOMO and creating the, the need to buy now that we 00:46:42.381 --> 00:46:44.001 know isn't real, but it works. 00:46:44.461 --> 00:46:44.871 And. 00:46:45.276 --> 00:46:47.836 You know, we see it slapped on a lot of products that get acquired 00:46:47.836 --> 00:46:50.396 and and it must be working right? 00:46:50.506 --> 00:46:54.886 But we are going to try an introductory pricing at some point. 00:46:55.036 --> 00:46:56.456 That's what lifter is doing right now. 00:46:56.896 --> 00:47:00.276 We used to be more expensive the first year and cheaper the second and we went to 00:47:00.276 --> 00:47:05.081 the same price every year, as, as well as your first year, so now we're going to try 00:47:05.081 --> 00:47:09.201 the inverse, less your first year, more in the second, and that's just that alignment 00:47:09.211 --> 00:47:13.561 to letting people get in who need it and can't yet afford it, who are just starting 00:47:13.561 --> 00:47:18.241 out, and that's what our mission is aimed at, so the people that want to grow, and 00:47:18.371 --> 00:47:22.461 in year two, they should have proven And they should be grown enough to justify 00:47:22.471 --> 00:47:25.351 the full price renewal of the product. 00:47:25.361 --> 00:47:27.051 So it'll be curious to try it. 00:47:27.051 --> 00:47:28.451 It's an experiment we haven't done. 00:47:28.471 --> 00:47:30.011 And why not try them all? 00:47:30.711 --> 00:47:33.361 Matt: And that's where you have, you have step one, get people started for free, 00:47:33.361 --> 00:47:34.731 which is obviously your free plugin. 00:47:35.571 --> 00:47:39.211 Step two, make it as inexpensive as possible for people to get support plus 00:47:39.231 --> 00:47:41.351 additional add ons and aimed at growth. 00:47:41.371 --> 00:47:42.201 And you feel like. 00:47:42.581 --> 00:47:46.281 Where you're at now with that pricing, that's you've accomplished step two. 00:47:47.861 --> 00:47:50.961 And then step three, charge them full price once they have proven their model. 00:47:50.961 --> 00:47:56.111 And that's, is that your, is that the, 597 a year plan? 00:47:56.121 --> 00:47:59.641 Or are you just saying, Oh, look, now that they're here, we're just 00:47:59.641 --> 00:48:00.631 going to charge them full price. 00:48:00.641 --> 00:48:02.831 So are you, are you going to change the price again? 00:48:02.881 --> 00:48:03.211 Is that what you're 00:48:03.351 --> 00:48:07.801 Kim: I don't think we're doing it until January next year is where we're thinking. 00:48:07.891 --> 00:48:10.301 We'll get through one full year of these full price prices. 00:48:10.341 --> 00:48:16.531 And then in January of next year, consider a first year, 170, what is it? 00:48:16.531 --> 00:48:16.531 172. 00:48:16.531 --> 00:48:18.161 50 or something. 00:48:18.161 --> 00:48:18.471 I don't know. 00:48:18.631 --> 00:48:19.181 Doing the math. 00:48:19.451 --> 00:48:23.091 Knocking them half price first year and then bump up. 00:48:23.971 --> 00:48:24.861 Yeah, we'll try it. 00:48:24.981 --> 00:48:25.421 We'll see. 00:48:26.511 --> 00:48:28.111 There's lots of ways I mean we have never 00:48:28.111 --> 00:48:30.471 Matt: for the listener, for the listener, you can't see Kim, but 00:48:30.471 --> 00:48:32.131 she's actively thinking about it and 00:48:32.261 --> 00:48:34.921 Kim: I know i'm like It's good. 00:48:34.921 --> 00:48:39.291 I it's always on our minds to to look at it again to reevaluate it a 00:48:39.291 --> 00:48:42.841 lot of places do like an extensions model in it and add ons model. 00:48:42.841 --> 00:48:47.071 It's not one we've considered trying But who knows we are going to start 00:48:47.071 --> 00:48:51.581 selling like add on license keys, which we haven't in the past offered 00:48:51.641 --> 00:48:53.421 We've just been like buy another plan 00:48:54.141 --> 00:48:54.691 Matt: because Chris 00:48:54.751 --> 00:48:55.561 Kim: different email 00:48:55.981 --> 00:48:56.271 Matt: Right. 00:48:56.271 --> 00:48:59.331 Chris does that you can get, you can get, and he has, does he 00:48:59.331 --> 00:49:00.443 have, obviously he has success 00:49:00.481 --> 00:49:03.631 Kim: he does the ala carte, or bundled options. 00:49:03.641 --> 00:49:04.711 He also does lifetime deals. 00:49:04.711 --> 00:49:07.181 That's something we haven't done But I think for black friday, 00:49:07.181 --> 00:49:08.401 we're going to consider doing one. 00:49:08.701 --> 00:49:11.531 Matt: Mm hmm. 00:49:11.771 --> 00:49:13.156 Kim: I don't know You We don't know. 00:49:13.166 --> 00:49:15.646 You never know until you try it, and then you, you know better for what 00:49:15.646 --> 00:49:17.556 you can try again in the future. 00:49:18.981 --> 00:49:19.821 Matt: Last question. 00:49:19.851 --> 00:49:21.331 I want to talk about this enterprise plan. 00:49:21.331 --> 00:49:21.396 Mm hmm. 00:49:22.606 --> 00:49:27.356 Talking about that, how did you come about to the 5, 000 plus price tag? 00:49:27.566 --> 00:49:29.886 do you get a lot of enterprise inquiries? 00:49:30.256 --> 00:49:32.946 Do you ever move anyone into enterprise? 00:49:32.946 --> 00:49:35.156 You say, hey, look, you're on this plus plan, you're doing this thing. 00:49:35.366 --> 00:49:36.576 Let's just move over to enterprise. 00:49:36.686 --> 00:49:37.906 How does that look to you? 00:49:37.906 --> 00:49:42.406 Because that could be a, a massive driver, for the business, revenue wise. 00:49:42.916 --> 00:49:46.956 Kim: Yeah, we, it's mostly a, a way to open conversations, and it largely turns 00:49:46.956 --> 00:49:51.486 out that they aren't, An enterprise customer, largely their agency's 00:49:51.506 --> 00:49:55.336 speculating on whether they take PaytonMembershipsPro as the membership 00:49:55.466 --> 00:49:57.106 plugin they only use and install. 00:49:57.316 --> 00:50:00.326 And in those cases, it makes more sense for them to either be an affiliate 00:50:00.476 --> 00:50:03.486 or to pass on a discount and let their customers sign up directly. 00:50:03.726 --> 00:50:07.926 It's really hairy when, developers own the license for people's sites. 00:50:08.301 --> 00:50:10.961 Unless they have had like established long term business together. 00:50:11.951 --> 00:50:13.641 It it's hard for me to recommend that. 00:50:13.751 --> 00:50:17.751 as interesting as that is, it does serve as a decoy price and maybe 00:50:17.751 --> 00:50:19.581 becomes a lifetime deal in time. 00:50:19.891 --> 00:50:24.041 but it exists to say like, yes, we can be used on large scale associations. 00:50:24.041 --> 00:50:27.731 You know, then an enlisted association of the national guard uses paid 00:50:27.731 --> 00:50:32.711 memberships pro across all of its member states, they don't pay us 5, 000. 00:50:32.711 --> 00:50:35.891 They pay one of our developer partners to maintain. 00:50:36.311 --> 00:50:40.121 Their websites and their, their things, and they pay for a subscription for 00:50:40.121 --> 00:50:42.281 their license keys individually. 00:50:42.531 --> 00:50:45.501 so it, it really is a conversation to say, what are you doing 00:50:45.501 --> 00:50:46.541 with paid memberships pro? 00:50:46.691 --> 00:50:48.031 Oh, you're really an agency. 00:50:48.171 --> 00:50:49.931 Should people be buying their own licenses? 00:50:50.391 --> 00:50:54.121 Should you just start buying a la carte licenses and what would that look like? 00:50:54.331 --> 00:50:58.031 I can't talk about it yet, but there is a dominant, predominant, well 00:50:58.031 --> 00:51:02.231 known, WordPress agency that's going to use Paid Memberships Pro and was 00:51:02.281 --> 00:51:03.931 otherwise considering building in house. 00:51:03.951 --> 00:51:05.151 And they were like, are we an agency? 00:51:05.171 --> 00:51:07.401 I was like, are you going to support this customer? 00:51:07.411 --> 00:51:07.911 Yes. 00:51:08.251 --> 00:51:10.211 They just need a license and let them use it. 00:51:10.211 --> 00:51:13.471 So, I love having those conversations because it's, it's where we 00:51:13.471 --> 00:51:16.541 learn about the really cool implementations of our product. 00:51:17.366 --> 00:51:17.686 Matt: Yeah. 00:51:17.696 --> 00:51:21.326 I mean, and again, for, for those listening and hearing enterprise 5, 000 00:51:21.336 --> 00:51:25.836 plus, like if you're a plugin developer, I can absolutely tell you that is the bare 00:51:25.836 --> 00:51:30.186 minimum price for, as somebody who worked at, Pagely before they were purchased 00:51:30.186 --> 00:51:32.336 by GoDaddy and got a lot of experience. 00:51:32.376 --> 00:51:35.956 I mean, I got some experience in enterprise at my agency, but certainly 00:51:35.976 --> 00:51:40.056 at Pagely, it was all, that was all I was selling into was the enterprise. 00:51:41.316 --> 00:51:46.126 minimum plan was 5, 000 a year because every single purchase was, 00:51:46.166 --> 00:51:49.146 Oh, marketing person at some company. 00:51:49.166 --> 00:51:49.426 Oh yeah. 00:51:49.426 --> 00:51:49.796 I love it. 00:51:49.806 --> 00:51:50.306 Want to buy it? 00:51:50.336 --> 00:51:50.796 Okay. 00:51:50.956 --> 00:51:51.616 How much is it? 00:51:51.816 --> 00:51:53.876 And you're just like, you're talking to them and they're like, okay, yep. 00:51:53.896 --> 00:51:54.146 Okay. 00:51:54.146 --> 00:51:54.686 Sounds great. 00:51:54.726 --> 00:51:55.216 And then. 00:51:55.916 --> 00:51:57.086 They're like, we'll, we'll, we'll buy it. 00:51:57.146 --> 00:51:59.366 I'll send another email like next week or whatever. 00:51:59.366 --> 00:52:02.596 And then that email next week is the legal team. 00:52:02.926 --> 00:52:03.576 It's the I. 00:52:03.616 --> 00:52:03.866 T. 00:52:03.866 --> 00:52:07.766 team that wants you to pass, some kind of like security sanity check and 00:52:07.766 --> 00:52:11.826 you're filling out Excel spreadsheets and you're like, what the hell is this? 00:52:12.236 --> 00:52:18.536 and I think that every plugin touch something in enterprise should have 00:52:18.536 --> 00:52:20.046 this reserved enterprise price. 00:52:20.066 --> 00:52:23.906 Even if you're not, Advertising it, you just have it because you're not going to 00:52:23.906 --> 00:52:25.586 want to go through all this other stuff. 00:52:25.936 --> 00:52:28.446 And you actually might lose some, like, if, if you find it interesting, 00:52:28.446 --> 00:52:32.326 you might lose business if you don't have that kind of solution advertised. 00:52:32.326 --> 00:52:34.926 Cause they might, because sometimes even at five 97 a 00:52:34.926 --> 00:52:36.306 year, an enterprise is just like. 00:52:36.786 --> 00:52:38.696 They find that in the loose change drawer. 00:52:38.796 --> 00:52:40.216 Like that's nothing, right? 00:52:40.226 --> 00:52:41.696 500 nights, they won't even work with you, 00:52:42.221 --> 00:52:42.461 Kim: Yeah. 00:52:42.461 --> 00:52:43.191 I mean, at the. 00:52:43.306 --> 00:52:43.766 Matt: bigger. 00:52:44.696 --> 00:52:47.556 Kim: Outside of the WordPress space, the products we compete 00:52:47.556 --> 00:52:50.106 with are 100, 000 plus a year 00:52:50.106 --> 00:52:50.466 Matt: yeah. 00:52:50.546 --> 00:52:50.926 Easy. 00:52:51.386 --> 00:52:55.436 Kim: hosted software solutions and people dislike them and migrate to us 00:52:55.436 --> 00:53:00.466 because they're just outdated dinosaur products, you know, and, and they don't 00:53:00.466 --> 00:53:04.366 work the way that they need and they're not extendable, but without a price 00:53:04.366 --> 00:53:08.406 like that on the, on the table, it's not obvious that this product is for them, 00:53:08.646 --> 00:53:13.291 you know, When they see 597 DIY, get it, do it yourself, they're like, Oh, 00:53:13.301 --> 00:53:17.671 you couldn't possibly manage my thousand member organization, Chamber of Commerce. 00:53:17.671 --> 00:53:18.591 Like, yes, we can. 00:53:18.981 --> 00:53:21.231 You know, our site has 160, 000 members. 00:53:21.231 --> 00:53:24.271 You can, we can manage your thousand member Chamber of Commerce. 00:53:24.611 --> 00:53:28.781 it's just, it, it's hard for people to say, see that an open source product 00:53:28.991 --> 00:53:33.311 and something WordPress on a blogging platform could, could batch something 00:53:33.311 --> 00:53:35.421 that would be in those six figures plus. 00:53:36.486 --> 00:53:38.336 Matt: I said last question, but I want to hit this one last 00:53:38.346 --> 00:53:39.796 bullet point, on your list. 00:53:40.286 --> 00:53:44.566 you have Jason's sabbatical, sabbatical, and Kim plus David's 00:53:44.576 --> 00:53:46.796 brutal push for beta release. 00:53:47.056 --> 00:53:51.896 So, I can't let you go without explaining Jason out sipping cocktails, while you 00:53:51.896 --> 00:53:54.166 and David are brutally pushing for a 00:53:54.291 --> 00:53:59.161 Kim: Yeah, so I, you know, I'm the get shit done person in our group. 00:54:00.281 --> 00:54:04.161 team, and, and Jason gets a lot of stuff started, and he thinks about 00:54:04.161 --> 00:54:08.161 things, and he thinks about new things, and he starts things, and 00:54:08.161 --> 00:54:09.881 I'm just like, why isn't this out? 00:54:09.881 --> 00:54:10.881 Why isn't this launched? 00:54:11.311 --> 00:54:13.531 You know, clean this up, fix this, get this done. 00:54:13.661 --> 00:54:14.821 So it was an interesting time. 00:54:14.821 --> 00:54:18.931 Jason went on sabbatical at the mid November, early November 00:54:18.951 --> 00:54:20.811 through the end of 2023. 00:54:21.241 --> 00:54:24.191 he actually was not sipping cocktails maybe some nights, but he just took 00:54:24.191 --> 00:54:26.951 his time to read books and heal. 00:54:26.971 --> 00:54:28.411 I think he was really getting burned out. 00:54:28.571 --> 00:54:30.711 At the end of 2023. 00:54:30.811 --> 00:54:32.171 and we had been developing 3. 00:54:32.171 --> 00:54:33.681 0 for over three years. 00:54:33.681 --> 00:54:37.831 The first commit was like June, 2021 or something. 00:54:37.841 --> 00:54:39.631 It was like, no, it had to have been earlier than that. 00:54:39.641 --> 00:54:39.881 I don't know. 00:54:39.881 --> 00:54:40.731 I can get you the real date. 00:54:41.451 --> 00:54:46.161 And I took that time to work with our lead developer and just say like, what's in, 00:54:46.161 --> 00:54:48.361 what's out, what do we have to get done? 00:54:48.731 --> 00:54:53.171 And we just, by the end of, even before Jason's sabbatical, mid December, 00:54:53.761 --> 00:54:56.301 we had a working beta version of 3. 00:54:56.301 --> 00:54:58.471 0 to share with our community. 00:54:59.036 --> 00:55:04.331 Of people and it was Just really fast decision making, really fast 00:55:04.341 --> 00:55:05.891 code review between David and I. 00:55:05.911 --> 00:55:09.641 I would do a PR, he would approve it and merge it within minutes. 00:55:09.641 --> 00:55:10.901 I would say, it's up, it's ready to go. 00:55:11.211 --> 00:55:14.601 and we just kind of got really hyperactive on it and, and we 00:55:14.601 --> 00:55:16.051 got a beta release out the door. 00:55:16.051 --> 00:55:18.741 So that was a fun time for me to work that closely with David because 00:55:18.741 --> 00:55:21.051 I didn't really in my day to day. 00:55:21.071 --> 00:55:23.981 So I just moved aside all my marketing tasks and focused on 00:55:23.981 --> 00:55:25.501 my development tasks in the team. 00:55:25.511 --> 00:55:26.431 So it was good. 00:55:26.431 --> 00:55:26.891 It was like. 00:55:27.301 --> 00:55:27.901 Jason's not here. 00:55:27.901 --> 00:55:28.961 We can make the decisions. 00:55:29.031 --> 00:55:30.051 And that came up a lot. 00:55:30.061 --> 00:55:33.741 But when he came back, he said everything in right that it would have 00:55:33.741 --> 00:55:35.361 been in the way that he wanted to. 00:55:35.931 --> 00:55:39.051 But it was grateful that he didn't have to go through that period with us, I 00:55:39.381 --> 00:55:41.271 Matt: Yeah, yeah, sure. 00:55:41.851 --> 00:55:42.801 paid memberships pro. 00:55:43.371 --> 00:55:43.831 com. 00:55:43.841 --> 00:55:46.061 You can check out the new pricing live. 00:55:46.061 --> 00:55:47.001 Don't complain about it. 00:55:47.001 --> 00:55:47.411 It's there. 00:55:47.411 --> 00:55:49.381 It's 347 for the year. 00:55:49.631 --> 00:55:52.681 And look, like I said, so many of us can use it for free. 00:55:53.371 --> 00:55:55.081 It's a fantastic plugin. 00:55:55.091 --> 00:55:56.881 Been in business now 00:55:57.341 --> 00:55:58.071 Kim: 13 years. 00:55:58.071 --> 00:56:01.701 July 5th, I think, is our, is 13 year birthday. 00:56:01.811 --> 00:56:02.071 Yeah, 00:56:02.606 --> 00:56:03.486 Matt: that's fantastic. 00:56:03.546 --> 00:56:07.456 Kudos to you and, the team for surviving this long. 00:56:07.476 --> 00:56:11.806 It's, it's, your praises are not sung enough, in the, in the WordPress world 00:56:11.816 --> 00:56:16.416 for, for meeting the decade mark alone is, is something that I think we should 00:56:16.416 --> 00:56:18.546 all celebrate more across the community. 00:56:18.946 --> 00:56:19.716 Paidmembershipspro. 00:56:19.756 --> 00:56:22.046 com, Kim Coleman, where else can they go to say thanks? 00:56:22.046 --> 00:56:24.856 Do you have any other socials that you want them to go to? 00:56:25.401 --> 00:56:27.711 Kim: I always forget what my ex account is. 00:56:28.051 --> 00:56:29.611 ColemanK83, I don't know. 00:56:29.631 --> 00:56:30.901 I'm on it less and less lately. 00:56:30.911 --> 00:56:32.851 Election year's got to tune that thing out. 00:56:32.916 --> 00:56:33.506 Matt: Oh yeah, you're gonna 00:56:33.531 --> 00:56:33.901 Kim: yeah. 00:56:33.951 --> 00:56:35.051 Just come to PeytonReichesPro. 00:56:35.051 --> 00:56:35.401 com. 00:56:35.711 --> 00:56:36.611 Complain about the price. 00:56:36.611 --> 00:56:37.001 Go ahead. 00:56:37.001 --> 00:56:37.541 I don't care. 00:56:38.546 --> 00:56:40.876 Matt: Send all complaints, paymembershippro. 00:56:40.876 --> 00:56:41.166 com. 00:56:41.466 --> 00:56:41.856 Thanks, Kim. 00:56:41.856 --> 00:56:42.696 Thanks for hanging out today. 00:56:43.061 --> 00:56:43.651 Kim: You got it.