WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:11.651 --> 00:00:17.711 Jethro Jones: Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. 00:00:18.221 --> 00:00:19.721 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:19.721 --> 00:00:22.421 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 00:00:35.020 --> 00:00:36.910 start what you were saying about education journalism 00:00:36.910 --> 00:00:40.630 Charles Sosnik: Education journalism isn't the same as reporting the news. 00:00:41.230 --> 00:00:47.830 People think education journalism is when a shooting happens at a school and somebody reports what happens? 00:00:48.160 --> 00:00:50.950 Well, that's the news reporting and that's not the same thing to me. 00:00:51.520 --> 00:01:00.190 To me, education journalism should be about ideas and using the ideas of all the great minds and education and everywhere else to. 00:01:00.610 --> 00:01:03.190 Figure out where we need to go and, and how to get there. 00:01:03.190 --> 00:01:05.320 And we're really not doing that yet, but we can. 00:01:06.595 --> 00:01:07.075 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:01:07.435 --> 00:01:19.315 So what, like what does that look like in today's environment where so much is driven by political things and political agendas? 00:01:19.315 --> 00:01:23.755 Like what does it, what does it look like to be, um. 00:01:24.820 --> 00:01:27.040 You know, to, to have these conversations. 00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:31.870 Is it, is blogs and podcasting enough, or is there, does there need to be something more? 00:01:33.115 --> 00:01:36.115 Charles Sosnik: Blogs and podcasting are important. 00:01:36.775 --> 00:01:48.895 Uh, certainly not enough when you add the things that, that I do and that Victor does that, uh, and, and all the other magazines and, and websites, that's a big part of it too. 00:01:49.375 --> 00:01:52.405 Uh, but we need all the voices we can find. 00:01:53.005 --> 00:02:08.845 Certainly voices like yours and, and uh, your partners, perhaps the voices in my magazines are, are very important, but we also need to, to find the voices that we can't hear yet because I would almost guarantee you the answers are out there. 00:02:09.145 --> 00:02:11.215 The truth is out there, however you want to say it. 00:02:11.665 --> 00:02:19.375 Um, but everyone needs to speak up and everyone needs to find his or her voice, and I think we can get where we're going. 00:02:20.035 --> 00:02:39.505 Right now, um, the environment to me is absolutely absurd when the issues of the day are, um, whether transgender athletes should be allowed to use the bathroom, and that makes the news and that requires an executive decision all the way up at the White House. 00:02:39.835 --> 00:02:41.815 Well, to me, that's a distraction. 00:02:42.890 --> 00:02:46.405 The, the real, you know, the, the real. 00:02:47.455 --> 00:02:50.695 Thing is our children aren't being educated, they're not learning. 00:02:51.505 --> 00:02:59.905 And I would almost say who cares if, if a transgender student uses a girl's bathroom or a boy's bathroom, I'm sure somebody cares, but that's not the issue. 00:02:59.905 --> 00:03:00.955 It's a distraction. 00:03:01.555 --> 00:03:07.315 So we need to find all the voices that we can and get to where we need to to be. 00:03:07.315 --> 00:03:14.635 When the mythical grade level says that 83% of the kids can't read. 00:03:15.040 --> 00:03:18.760 At this grade level, that's a big problem. 00:03:19.480 --> 00:03:22.780 That that's a much bigger problem than anything else I can think of in education. 00:03:22.780 --> 00:03:24.010 So let's talk about that. 00:03:24.790 --> 00:03:29.920 I mean, we can even talk about what the hell is a grade level if none of the kids are reading at grade level, how could that be grade level, 00:03:30.370 --> 00:03:31.270 Jethro Jones: Exactly. 00:03:31.450 --> 00:03:32.260 Charles Sosnik: just for example. 00:03:32.260 --> 00:03:33.400 But I don't know. 00:03:33.430 --> 00:03:38.020 We, we, we've got real issues, real challenges. 00:03:38.020 --> 00:03:40.810 Let's, let's jump in there everybody and solve them. 00:03:41.575 --> 00:03:50.845 I've never met anybody in public life, a Republican, a Democrat, an independent that doesn't care about his children, that doesn't want to get better. 00:03:51.505 --> 00:03:59.125 So let's quit screaming at each other and, and calling names, and let's sit down and get all the ideas on the table and move forward. 00:03:59.635 --> 00:04:00.295 What's wrong with that? 00:04:01.090 --> 00:04:27.505 Jethro Jones: Yeah, well that's, that's something that I believe also and um, as I. As a school principal, when I would talk to parents and they'd have something that they were upset or bothered by, I always started by saying, Hey, look, you and I both want the same thing for your child to be happy, healthy, and grow up in a successful way, and, and be a good positive adult. 00:04:27.775 --> 00:04:31.165 There's no parent out there that does not want that for their kids. 00:04:31.255 --> 00:04:36.145 And, and, and it's crazy to think that there's not, um. 00:04:37.195 --> 00:04:48.505 That we can't come together on that idea and, and get a lot of these things that truly are distractions out of, uh, the, the public eye. 00:04:48.535 --> 00:04:58.195 Why do you think that people pay so much attention to, to that stuff that is, uh, um, you know, all the distractions? 00:04:58.195 --> 00:05:01.075 Why do you think people pay more attention to that than the real issues? 00:05:03.790 --> 00:05:04.645 Charles Sosnik: I'm not sure Jeff. 00:05:04.645 --> 00:05:04.855 Right. 00:05:04.855 --> 00:05:06.955 Perhaps it's because that's what it's fed. 00:05:07.015 --> 00:05:08.035 That's what they're fed. 00:05:08.740 --> 00:05:15.040 Perhaps therein lies the problem in, uh, education journalism. 00:05:15.940 --> 00:05:27.640 Uh, I, I, I don't know why they pay attention to that more so than it, it, it may be because they just assume that their children are going to get educated in, in our school system. 00:05:27.940 --> 00:05:29.500 And that's been the assumption all along. 00:05:29.500 --> 00:05:36.850 It's very comforting to think you can drop your kids off and 13 years later you have an educated adult, but it just ain't so. 00:05:39.265 --> 00:05:39.895 A great question. 00:05:39.900 --> 00:05:39.980 I. 00:05:42.790 --> 00:05:53.440 Jethro Jones: Well, and that's, that's something that I've been thinking a lot about also, that you, you outsource the education of your kids to the state. 00:05:53.530 --> 00:06:03.550 And, and I think that is a fundamental flaw with how we do education in the United States, where, what I believe we should say is that education. 00:06:03.670 --> 00:06:08.110 And regardless of whether or not we say this, this is the actual truth, this is the reality. 00:06:08.740 --> 00:06:09.880 Of what exists. 00:06:10.330 --> 00:06:19.000 Education is the responsibility of the parents and the state steps in to assist them when they send their kids to the school. 00:06:19.420 --> 00:06:27.280 But the, the issue there is that the reason why that's the truth is because ev, no matter what you teach in school. 00:06:27.820 --> 00:06:31.750 You're not going to out teach what the kids are learning at home. 00:06:31.930 --> 00:06:36.430 And, and this is, you know, it goes to the value of education. 00:06:36.430 --> 00:06:38.740 It goes to how to treat other people. 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:44.530 And if you say one thing but the parents at home are doing a different thing, it, it doesn't really matter. 00:06:44.530 --> 00:06:48.910 You're not going to change the kids' minds because they're with their parents way more often. 00:06:49.150 --> 00:06:50.650 They trust their parents more. 00:06:51.670 --> 00:06:56.425 And, and this idea, this arrogant idea that we have in education that we have. 00:06:57.280 --> 00:07:08.200 All the answers is just not true, and we need to take a different approach in my mind to make it so that we can actually work with parents instead of asking them to work with us. 00:07:08.200 --> 00:07:09.790 Does that sound crazy to you? 00:07:11.335 --> 00:07:15.745 Charles Sosnik: It, it sounds absolutely insane and also true. 00:07:16.165 --> 00:07:21.055 Um, it somehow. 00:07:22.945 --> 00:07:28.405 We got it in our heads that, that everybody understands what education is because they went to school. 00:07:29.125 --> 00:07:35.905 But, uh, what is, I mean, you really have to ask yourself what is education and what is it, what is education now? 00:07:36.775 --> 00:07:38.425 Is it teaching or is it learning? 00:07:39.145 --> 00:07:44.755 Is it control or is it having the, the students take control? 00:07:44.905 --> 00:07:49.135 I mean, we probably have to actually redefine what it is we think we're doing. 00:07:50.320 --> 00:07:53.320 I think there's some fundamental questions that aren't being answered. 00:07:54.010 --> 00:08:00.760 So, um, is, is it, I I don't know that it's the parents', it's certainly the parent's responsibility. 00:08:01.180 --> 00:08:11.290 I don't know that the parents are necessarily more qualified, because I don't think they understand that, that, that the school doesn't get the job done. 00:08:11.350 --> 00:08:16.690 They, they, they just assume that, that the schools are experts. 00:08:17.250 --> 00:08:17.540 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:08:18.145 --> 00:08:19.855 Charles Sosnik: You worked in the school system, what do you think? 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:22.060 Jethro Jones: Well, I, I agree with you. 00:08:22.060 --> 00:08:31.030 They, they think that the schools are the experts and, and we may be the experts in some things, but they're the experts in their kids. 00:08:31.270 --> 00:08:37.690 And it requires, in my mind, a, a strong partnership for that to work. 00:08:37.810 --> 00:08:43.240 And it, regardless of, of where your kids are at, you know, whether they're. 00:08:44.095 --> 00:08:48.895 Impoverished or wealthy, whether they're whatever race, it doesn't matter. 00:08:49.585 --> 00:08:57.745 The parents know the kids the best and we need to work with them to do what's best for the kids that are in front of us. 00:08:57.775 --> 00:08:58.015 And I. 00:09:00.865 --> 00:09:09.745 And we have education and experience working with kids, helping them do things, but still, every student is unique. 00:09:09.775 --> 00:09:16.345 And that doesn't mean that like you can't teach certain things in a certain way and have virtually all the kids get it. 00:09:17.185 --> 00:09:19.195 This has been my ongoing question. 00:09:19.315 --> 00:09:27.595 You know, we, we say that there's the science of reading, for example, just to take one topic and we say, okay, we know how to teach reading. 00:09:27.895 --> 00:09:35.725 Well, if that's really the case, then one, why are we still having kids fail? 00:09:35.935 --> 00:09:40.705 And the easy answer is, well, not everybody's using the science of reading to teach. 00:09:41.005 --> 00:09:42.565 But then the second part of that is. 00:09:43.600 --> 00:10:00.700 Why are we using, uh, fallible, imperfect teachers to teach something that we know exactly how to teach it, and why are we not using the technology that we have to make it so that kids absolutely get all the practice that they need? 00:10:00.910 --> 00:10:01.840 Absolutely. 00:10:01.870 --> 00:10:06.460 Have all the experiences that they need, and then we put the teacher in a position to help them win. 00:10:07.640 --> 00:10:11.900 That stuff isn't working and when they need something that is unique or different. 00:10:12.500 --> 00:10:16.910 But you know, that's, that's just one example of, of that. 00:10:16.940 --> 00:10:30.650 If, if that were really the case and we really knew how to teach reading, then we should have a system that ensures that every kid is reading by a certain age and there's no ifs, ands, or buts to it. 00:10:30.920 --> 00:10:32.210 But we don't even have that. 00:10:35.355 --> 00:10:35.645 Charles Sosnik: Yeah. 00:10:35.710 --> 00:10:36.310 And. 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:45.550 So much of, of our education system is based on the fact that we teach all kids the same way. 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:54.820 Um, it's, it's almost like an assembly line, um, to, to mold kids into a, a certain style of adult. 00:10:54.955 --> 00:10:55.375 Jethro Jones: Mm-hmm. 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:56.890 Charles Sosnik: And all kids are different. 00:10:56.890 --> 00:11:03.310 And perhaps the, the greatest challenge that we have and our greatest failure is, um, the kids. 00:11:04.255 --> 00:11:05.065 What we're giving them. 00:11:05.245 --> 00:11:07.585 You know, they're, they're, they tune it out. 00:11:07.585 --> 00:11:12.445 It's not interesting to them and we, I mean, it's a completely different world. 00:11:12.445 --> 00:11:13.825 I'm 64. 00:11:13.825 --> 00:11:14.515 How old are you, RA 00:11:15.220 --> 00:11:16.180 Jethro Jones: I'm 43. 00:11:16.675 --> 00:11:17.395 Charles Sosnik: 43. 00:11:17.665 --> 00:11:20.485 Is the world anything like it was when you were 10 years old? 00:11:21.160 --> 00:11:23.005 Jethro Jones: No, I was just talking to my kids about that. 00:11:24.235 --> 00:11:27.145 Charles Sosnik: It's nothing like when, when I was 10 years old. 00:11:27.790 --> 00:11:30.460 And we still teach pretty much the same way. 00:11:30.940 --> 00:11:37.450 It's been my experience that if you can get a child interested in something, you can't keep them away from it. 00:11:38.290 --> 00:11:38.530 Why? 00:11:38.885 --> 00:11:39.105 Why? 00:11:39.250 --> 00:11:40.510 Why isn't that our goal? 00:11:40.510 --> 00:11:49.720 To get kids turned on to, to what they're interested in and then slip in the mathematics and the reading, and the physics and the biology and let them go for it. 00:11:50.680 --> 00:11:54.580 Kids are are such magical, wonderful beings. 00:11:55.135 --> 00:11:57.895 They're like sponges that take in their environment. 00:11:57.895 --> 00:11:59.665 Let's take advantage of that. 00:11:59.665 --> 00:12:00.775 Let's let 'em have fun. 00:12:00.775 --> 00:12:02.425 Let's let 'em be creative. 00:12:02.425 --> 00:12:05.275 Let's let them direct where they want to go. 00:12:05.815 --> 00:12:09.835 Uh, why are you trying to beat them into a box? 00:12:11.245 --> 00:12:12.865 Is it about control? 00:12:12.865 --> 00:12:16.195 Is it that we just don't understand that teaching isn't learning? 00:12:16.825 --> 00:12:19.015 There's so many good questions out there. 00:12:19.645 --> 00:12:26.755 Um, is education simply warehousing children today so the parents can work it? 00:12:26.755 --> 00:12:35.575 I don't even think it's a matter of public versus private, and I don't think it's a matter of new technology or better, new, better technology or artificial intelligence. 00:12:36.655 --> 00:12:48.115 If you use artificial intelligence to have a more efficient system of teaching the way you always taught, you're just gonna get more intense versions of failure. 00:12:48.910 --> 00:12:50.350 mean, let's be real. 00:12:50.380 --> 00:12:57.160 Artificial intelligence is a gift and could be the, the greatest technology ever for learners. 00:12:57.160 --> 00:13:00.610 But let's see it as a, a tool for learners, not a tool for teachers. 00:13:00.850 --> 00:13:01.270 Jethro Jones: Mm-hmm. 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:06.610 Charles Sosnik: There's so many smart people out there, Jeff Row, and, and I've been in education. 00:13:06.610 --> 00:13:15.340 I've been in media all my life, 45, 50 working years, and I came to education late, what, 20 years ago. 00:13:15.340 --> 00:13:16.480 I went to education media. 00:13:17.290 --> 00:13:23.620 And I found my life then, and I was just astounded at how much people care. 00:13:24.250 --> 00:13:25.450 Nobody's in it for the money. 00:13:25.450 --> 00:13:29.290 Everybody's in it because they love children and wanna make a difference in children's lives. 00:13:29.770 --> 00:13:34.480 Well, you take that group of people and what they know and get everybody talking. 00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:35.710 We could probably get somewhere. 00:13:36.850 --> 00:13:52.060 Jethro Jones: Yeah, I, I, I totally agree, and as I did interviews for teachers, the most common response that I hear about why you got into teaching is that people love seeing the light go off in kids' eyes. 00:13:52.210 --> 00:13:52.510 Shoot. 00:13:52.540 --> 00:13:58.685 I even use that same, uh, response when people ask me why I went into teaching and. 00:14:00.340 --> 00:14:06.820 And what's amazing is that our system is designed to not see the light bulb go off in kids' eyes. 00:14:07.450 --> 00:14:11.830 And yet that's why so many teachers go into it is 'cause they want that to happen. 00:14:11.830 --> 00:14:16.240 But, but we're not set up for that to be the case. 00:14:16.300 --> 00:14:20.530 And you know, there's, there's a lot of folks talking about how. 00:14:21.175 --> 00:14:26.395 You know, we need to do direct instruction and make sure kids know exactly what they need to learn. 00:14:26.815 --> 00:14:34.645 And all that does, it does systematize it and does make it easy to say whether or not a kid is learning something. 00:14:35.245 --> 00:14:50.485 But again, that's putting the emphasis, like you said, on the teaching, not on the learning and in, in my experience, and if you search for a synergy on on this podcast, you'll hear me talking about it many times where when kids. 00:14:51.085 --> 00:15:08.065 Were able, once they had the foundational skills of, of reading and writing and math, once they could do that, then we could turn 'em loose and they would learn more than we could possibly teach them in, in a traditional classroom setting. 00:15:08.695 --> 00:15:14.845 And, and we had students who would pass off 40 or 50 standards in the time that. 00:15:15.580 --> 00:15:22.780 If we tried to teach all of those standards and come up with a way to assess all of them and, and teach them, make sure every kid got 'em. 00:15:22.990 --> 00:15:24.040 There's just no way. 00:15:24.190 --> 00:15:35.830 And the amount of information that is out there that kids can learn is way beyond anything that, that we could ever hope to teach them in a systematic and structured way. 00:15:36.130 --> 00:15:38.140 And I think we just need to let go of that. 00:15:38.230 --> 00:15:41.020 Yes, kids need to be able to read and write and do math. 00:15:42.385 --> 00:15:54.505 But beyond that, I think we need to open the flood gates and allow them so much more freedom and flexibility in what they're learning because that's going to make it possible for them to learn what's applicable to them. 00:15:54.715 --> 00:16:01.345 And then if they know how to learn, then when they come to something they can't do, they can just learn it 'cause they've learned that skill. 00:16:02.980 --> 00:16:04.240 Charles Sosnik: Very, very well. 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:11.020 Said, um, do we take the time to explain to kids why we want them to learn math or what math means? 00:16:11.560 --> 00:16:13.840 Math is not memorizing equations. 00:16:14.230 --> 00:16:15.490 What, what does math mean? 00:16:15.490 --> 00:16:16.390 Why are we learning it? 00:16:16.420 --> 00:16:20.530 What, what will math help me do in my life? 00:16:20.530 --> 00:16:21.460 What's the relevance? 00:16:21.520 --> 00:16:26.230 My middle son Stone is just turned 23. 00:16:26.230 --> 00:16:27.760 He's been out in college a couple years. 00:16:28.270 --> 00:16:31.390 I remember a conversation I had with him when he was in middle school. 00:16:31.795 --> 00:16:37.945 We were talking about his subjects and what he liked, and we came to science and asked him, you know, how are you doing in science? 00:16:38.785 --> 00:16:40.285 He said, I hate science. 00:16:41.335 --> 00:16:48.985 And man, that was like a kick to the stomach because I'm a science nerd and I loved being in school and learning about science. 00:16:49.585 --> 00:16:51.265 And I said, how come Stone? 00:16:52.105 --> 00:16:59.335 And I swear to you, Jeff, he said, he looked at me, he said, in all childhood seriousness, because it has nothing to do with my life. 00:17:01.090 --> 00:17:05.830 How badly would you have to teach science where a kid believes that? 00:17:05.950 --> 00:17:06.490 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:17:06.580 --> 00:17:06.970 Oh my 00:17:07.120 --> 00:17:22.630 Charles Sosnik: You know, when I was in the seventh grade, I remember going down to the creek behind the school and looking at the rocks and seeing the Strat stratifications in the rocks, and we talked about how much pressure and how much time would it take. 00:17:22.975 --> 00:17:25.105 To push the rocks together and do that. 00:17:25.105 --> 00:17:39.445 You could use your imagination and think of that and think of the millennia that it takes, or if we learned about astronomy, somebody's mom would bring a telescope to school and everybody'd show up about six, and we would look at the stars together. 00:17:39.925 --> 00:17:42.265 To me, that's kids in science. 00:17:42.265 --> 00:17:46.345 It's not reading a book that doesn't touch you in any way whatsoever. 00:17:47.425 --> 00:17:48.985 How have we lost that? 00:17:49.675 --> 00:17:52.015 Have we lost the ability to, to. 00:17:52.465 --> 00:17:54.475 Get kids in love with learning. 00:17:55.285 --> 00:17:56.515 Shouldn't that be a first step? 00:17:57.445 --> 00:18:00.205 Jethro Jones: Yeah, you would think so. 00:18:01.765 --> 00:18:05.485 So I, this, I, I appreciate this conversation. 00:18:05.485 --> 00:18:06.955 I'm glad we had it so we can get on the. 00:18:07.705 --> 00:18:10.375 On the same page about a few things. 00:18:10.855 --> 00:18:18.385 I want to talk a little bit about the, a little bit more about the journalism space of education. 00:18:19.045 --> 00:18:28.105 There are so many smart, intelligent, um, educators out there who should be contributing to this field. 00:18:28.165 --> 00:18:31.950 So how, how would you suggest that people. 00:18:33.310 --> 00:18:34.300 Start contributing. 00:18:34.300 --> 00:18:41.650 You're publisher and editor of several, uh, publications and, and how can people get started? 00:18:41.650 --> 00:18:47.320 What can they, what can they do and what would be your advice to get started in, in sharing their wisdom and knowledge? 00:18:47.320 --> 00:18:47.350 I. 00:18:48.040 --> 00:19:02.260 Charles Sosnik: Well, I would love to have them contact me just for one, or, or my counterparts and, and all the other media, um, Victor at EdTech Digest, Lonnie or Doug at Learning Council and, and all the other. 00:19:02.965 --> 00:19:11.035 Wonderful publications out there that are searching minute by minute, hour by hour, looking for these voices. 00:19:11.695 --> 00:19:13.135 Just don't be afraid. 00:19:13.135 --> 00:19:15.745 Just step up and say, Hey, is it okay if I write an article? 00:19:15.745 --> 00:19:17.305 Because all of us will say, yes. 00:19:17.725 --> 00:19:27.025 We would love to have your voice and you and, and Ross and, and all of the, the podcasters in, in your network. 00:19:27.025 --> 00:19:28.285 Your network is huge. 00:19:28.285 --> 00:19:31.195 You reach thousands and thousands of people. 00:19:31.930 --> 00:19:40.030 If I want to be on a podcast, all I have to do is ask and, and you or your counterparts will probably allow it and we can just talk about stuff. 00:19:40.450 --> 00:19:48.280 And the more people that talk about stuff and write about stuff and read about stuff and listen about stuff, I think that makes a huge difference. 00:19:48.645 --> 00:19:50.650 I think we, 00:19:50.965 --> 00:19:51.535 Jethro Jones: It does. 00:19:51.730 --> 00:19:58.000 Charles Sosnik: in the education media, have the opportunity to change the world and not because we're real smart. 00:19:58.330 --> 00:20:03.365 Because we can find some real smart people to talk to us, and that's what it's gonna take. 00:20:05.815 --> 00:20:06.115 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:20:06.535 --> 00:20:12.925 And, and having people, this is key what you said, having people share what they're doing. 00:20:12.925 --> 00:20:15.985 And a lot of people think, well, I can't do that. 00:20:15.985 --> 00:20:22.315 I don't have enough credentials or enough history or enough other publish stuff to be able to do that. 00:20:22.315 --> 00:20:33.115 And um, and the reality is, is you probably do and you need to think a little bit better about yourself and think that you can contribute to it. 00:20:33.625 --> 00:20:35.095 And you know, you have. 00:20:35.485 --> 00:20:40.705 All these publications and I, I first heard Leilani Coughin speak, uh, just this year. 00:20:41.005 --> 00:20:44.995 I did not know, uh, who she was until I saw her speak. 00:20:45.475 --> 00:20:47.215 And, um, and I 00:20:47.305 --> 00:20:48.565 Charles Sosnik: What did you, what did you think? 00:20:48.775 --> 00:20:54.085 Jethro Jones: well, I was very impressed and I went up to her afterward and I said, Hey, we need to, we need to stay friends. 00:20:54.115 --> 00:20:57.415 And then I emailed her and she never emailed me back, but that's. 00:20:57.775 --> 00:21:00.475 Charles Sosnik: maybe, maybe, you know, maybe her email filter. 00:21:00.475 --> 00:21:00.835 Got it. 00:21:00.835 --> 00:21:04.525 I, I'll, I'll pick up the phone and call her and ask her to call you if she'd like. 00:21:05.035 --> 00:21:05.815 Jethro Jones: That'd be great. 00:21:05.995 --> 00:21:08.950 Charles Sosnik: she's probably the smartest person I've ever met in real life. 00:21:09.355 --> 00:21:10.285 Jethro Jones: Yeah, she, 00:21:10.330 --> 00:21:10.540 Charles Sosnik: she's. 00:21:11.875 --> 00:21:27.220 Jethro Jones: yeah, so I, I was speaking at the same event that she was, and she was the keynote and I was one of the breakout speakers and I. What she said forced me to change what I was presenting that day because it was so on point. 00:21:27.250 --> 00:21:31.330 And she was talking about AI and the changing world, and that's what I was talking about too. 00:21:31.330 --> 00:21:46.270 So, but the thing is, like, she's not the only one who's, who's thinking that she's not the only one who, who has these ideas, but what she does have is time and a platform to be able to get out there and say it. 00:21:46.360 --> 00:21:46.870 And. 00:21:47.755 --> 00:22:00.805 There, there are teachers in that, in that audience who followed up with me afterward and had amazing things to say that should be writing articles, but they're not for whatever reason. 00:22:00.805 --> 00:22:04.375 So my call here is I. Um, is, is Charles. 00:22:04.375 --> 00:22:05.335 Put out the invitation. 00:22:05.335 --> 00:22:14.845 If you're listening to this and you've done anything cool in your school, you are qualified to, to write an article to get your voice out there and be part of it. 00:22:14.845 --> 00:22:23.935 And, and so if you want to reach out to me, uh, 'cause we already have a connection, 'cause you listen to my podcast, I'll put you in touch with Charles, uh, and anybody else. 00:22:23.935 --> 00:22:27.055 But that kind of stuff is, is just so important. 00:22:27.085 --> 00:22:28.810 And you know, this is. 00:22:29.995 --> 00:22:32.575 Episode, 700 of this podcast or something like that, and. 00:22:33.715 --> 00:22:40.255 And it all started because I just wanted to, to learn more myself and then share that with other people. 00:22:40.255 --> 00:22:46.555 And I thought I'd have a better chance of being able to talk to people if I told 'em that we were gonna do a podcast. 00:22:46.555 --> 00:22:48.115 And that other people might hear it too. 00:22:48.475 --> 00:22:52.165 I thought, well, nobody wants to talk to me, but maybe they'll wanna talk to other people. 00:22:52.255 --> 00:22:58.405 And, and that's how this started over 12 years ago and, and now I've been doing it for 12 straight years. 00:22:58.435 --> 00:23:00.200 And that kind of stuff is really. 00:23:01.015 --> 00:23:06.235 I think amazing gives a great opportunity for us to share what we're doing. 00:23:06.235 --> 00:23:16.075 So absolutely reach out and say, Hey, I'll, I either want a guest on the podcast or I wanna, I wanna write one an article for something and let's make it happen. 00:23:16.105 --> 00:23:17.575 Anything you'd add to that, Charles? 00:23:18.740 --> 00:23:24.705 Charles Sosnik: I would go beyond the fact that, that you have an opportunity to get your voice out there. 00:23:24.830 --> 00:23:28.730 I, I would go one step further and say, you have a responsibility. 00:23:28.795 --> 00:23:30.565 To get your voice out there. 00:23:31.165 --> 00:23:35.875 The only thing that's required for things to go wrong is for good people to say nothing. 00:23:36.445 --> 00:23:56.815 And it doesn't even matter if, if we end up doing what you say, the fact that it's another voice that can be considered, and it's not just if you done something cool in your school, if you have an idea, if, if you've observed something, if you think something, if you're a teacher, if you're a principal. 00:23:57.280 --> 00:24:01.570 If you're a student and you're listening to this, I mean, that's where the real action is. 00:24:01.570 --> 00:24:02.680 You're right in the middle of it. 00:24:03.010 --> 00:24:05.860 What would help you learn more? 00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:09.640 You know, when, when I was in school, I hated it. 00:24:09.790 --> 00:24:26.560 I graduated 449 out of 5 0 1 in my class because I, I just didn't like it and didn't try and didn't listen Well, I got in college and, you know, it was, it was straight A's and, and Dean's list. 00:24:26.560 --> 00:24:43.780 I. The difference was I liked it and I tried, and how many Charles are out there that might be pretty bright and could make a contribution, but I'm a precocious, excuse me, English fifth language. 00:24:44.080 --> 00:24:46.240 I'm a precocious little kid and think I know it. 00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:50.350 Also, I'd tune it out well if I was interested and turned on. 00:24:52.245 --> 00:24:57.520 Now who knows what I could've, where I could've gone or what, what I could've accomplished as a child and then an adult. 00:24:58.060 --> 00:25:13.210 So let, let's get there and let's care, and let's try and let's get rid of the, you know, the, the procedures and, and making our goal to keep school the way it's always been. 00:25:13.210 --> 00:25:18.910 And, and let's talk about if we could do anything in education, what would we do? 00:25:19.675 --> 00:25:20.485 Let's do that. 00:25:23.024 --> 00:25:28.364 Jethro Jones: all right, there's a bunch of different publications that, uh, that people could contribute to. 00:25:28.874 --> 00:25:33.584 Um, where, where would you suggest people start? 00:25:33.584 --> 00:25:39.284 Is the Learning Council for, for example, something that people could contribute to, or is that a closed system? 00:25:39.614 --> 00:25:40.814 Charles Sosnik: Yeah, no, absolutely. 00:25:40.814 --> 00:25:42.314 The Learning Council is a great one. 00:25:42.749 --> 00:25:58.469 Um, it's not really a traditional publication as you might think, but they have a, a subscriber list of, I think 310,000 United States education administrators. 00:25:59.459 --> 00:26:02.069 That's, uh, probably the, the greatest 00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:07.679 subscription of, of that group in the entire world. 00:26:07.679 --> 00:26:09.719 So that's a, a great place to start. 00:26:09.719 --> 00:26:11.009 Contact the learning council. 00:26:11.549 --> 00:26:14.939 Um, I have some ed tech and AI publications. 00:26:14.939 --> 00:26:18.089 You can contact me, you can call me, you can email me. 00:26:18.149 --> 00:26:25.649 Um, I think you could give them my email address after this Jethro, and I'll get on the phone and talk to you. 00:26:25.654 --> 00:26:35.909 You know, I would love to talk to you, and I'm very fortunate to know most of the other editors and publications, publishers, excuse me, in the biz, because I've been in it a long time. 00:26:35.909 --> 00:26:39.629 I can't tell you how many years I've, I've been at conferences in the. 00:26:41.264 --> 00:26:46.244 Excuse me, the media room drinking bad coffee and eating free sandwiches, because that's what journalists do. 00:26:46.244 --> 00:26:47.204 If it's free, we're there. 00:26:47.684 --> 00:26:50.744 And, um, you know, I, I've talked to, to everybody. 00:26:50.744 --> 00:26:51.554 I know everybody. 00:26:52.544 --> 00:26:55.514 I'll pick up the phone and, and call another editor for you. 00:26:55.904 --> 00:26:56.954 Uh, I don't mind. 00:26:56.954 --> 00:26:59.714 It is all about helping each other and getting the word out there. 00:27:00.104 --> 00:27:01.154 I'm sure you'll do the same. 00:27:01.574 --> 00:27:02.864 Jethro Jones: Yeah, absolutely. 00:27:03.224 --> 00:27:11.169 Um, one of the things that, uh, people have said to me is that I'm a super connector and connect. 00:27:12.269 --> 00:27:21.239 And that's one of the things that I love to do, is I love to put people with the right kind of people to help them get what they want to have happen. 00:27:21.329 --> 00:27:26.999 And, um, and that is a, that's a fun thing for me to do. 00:27:26.999 --> 00:27:36.569 And being connected to someone like you who's been in the business for so long and has so many connections, um, that's great because, uh. 00:27:37.004 --> 00:27:39.044 I certainly don't have all the answers. 00:27:39.344 --> 00:27:50.594 I have some that I think will work for me and work with others, but, um, but if I can connect people with you who do have answers for things, then, then that's fantastic. 00:27:50.594 --> 00:28:00.224 And that's the kind of thing that I want to be doing more of is connecting people to, to help them achieve whatever it is that they're going for. 00:28:01.499 --> 00:28:11.729 Charles Sosnik: Well, one of the things I've realized in the education media is it's not a competitive environment, and by that I mean that everybody helps everybody. 00:28:12.134 --> 00:28:15.764 I can pick up the phone and call another editor and they'll take my call. 00:28:16.364 --> 00:28:24.074 And if another editor has an idea he thinks is, is, or she thinks is very important, they'll pick up the phone and call me. 00:28:24.074 --> 00:28:30.614 And maybe all of us will run three or four different voices along the same theme. 00:28:30.614 --> 00:28:33.044 And if we do that together, we can really make an impact. 00:28:33.674 --> 00:28:36.104 So let's, let's all get involved. 00:28:36.104 --> 00:28:40.364 Everybody that's listening to your show, if everyone that listens to your show would pick up the phone. 00:28:41.234 --> 00:28:42.854 Call you Jeff Row number one. 00:28:42.854 --> 00:28:51.884 You'd be a pretty busy guy, but number two, we could just, just the listeners on on your show could change the world if everybody would try. 00:28:53.639 --> 00:28:55.824 Jethro Jones: Yeah, it's very true. 00:28:55.974 --> 00:29:01.644 And the thing that's so amazing about that is that I've, I've seen it happen as people have. 00:29:01.994 --> 00:29:06.224 Reached out to me who have listened to the podcast and said, Hey, this is the thing that I'm doing. 00:29:06.554 --> 00:29:18.794 And they do make a difference in, in their local community, but then, then they make a difference in a bigger community when they share what they're doing and share what they're experiencing and seeing. 00:29:19.149 --> 00:29:26.469 Because then they give somebody else an idea and say, oh, you know, maybe I can, I can try something like that at my, at my location. 00:29:26.829 --> 00:29:30.099 But the thing is, is you don't have to do exactly what someone else does. 00:29:30.099 --> 00:29:38.499 You can do your own flavor of it, and you can do your own thing that is unique to you and to your people. 00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:41.079 And that's, that's where the real power is, to be honest. 00:29:41.969 --> 00:29:42.329 Charles Sosnik: Right. 00:29:42.329 --> 00:29:47.279 Listen to me, listen my ideas and then incorporate 'em in, in what you're doing. 00:29:47.729 --> 00:29:48.659 If they make sense. 00:29:48.659 --> 00:29:54.419 If they don't, so you wasted five minutes, but you tried, you know, that's a great point, Jeff. 00:29:54.629 --> 00:29:57.509 Let's, let's use these ideas in our own ways. 00:29:57.779 --> 00:30:00.839 Use them as appropriate with with our own learners. 00:30:01.364 --> 00:30:05.534 And let's talk to our learners and, and ask them what would help you? 00:30:05.534 --> 00:30:06.614 What, what would you need? 00:30:06.854 --> 00:30:07.934 What would you like to see? 00:30:07.964 --> 00:30:08.954 How often do we do that? 00:30:10.449 --> 00:30:10.769 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:30:11.744 --> 00:30:13.484 Uh, not as often as we would like. 00:30:13.544 --> 00:30:20.144 And one of the big challenges, Charles, is, is that it takes time to write, to create, to do things. 00:30:20.564 --> 00:30:24.854 What's your advice knowing that it does take time to do things well? 00:30:25.094 --> 00:30:26.109 What would you suggest? 00:30:26.989 --> 00:30:30.254 Charles Sosnik: I, I would acknowledge that and say, do it anyway. 00:30:30.944 --> 00:30:31.709 I. Find the time. 00:30:32.009 --> 00:30:41.369 Um, if, if you, if it takes you a couple of hours to, to write an article for me, just realize how important it is and, and you probably won't mind finding the time. 00:30:41.909 --> 00:30:43.439 Um, but yeah, it's an effort. 00:30:43.679 --> 00:30:46.589 It's not going, the world's not gonna change by itself. 00:30:47.129 --> 00:30:53.489 But, uh, with, with you and me and, and all our friends, we can probably make a little bit of a difference. 00:30:53.489 --> 00:30:54.659 Maybe a lot of the difference. 00:30:55.139 --> 00:30:56.459 But why would you not? 00:30:57.539 --> 00:30:58.769 Why, why would you not try? 00:30:58.769 --> 00:31:00.269 That's why you're in education. 00:31:00.269 --> 00:31:02.789 That's why all of us are so here. 00:31:02.789 --> 00:31:06.359 Here's a, a microphone, a megaphone. 00:31:06.989 --> 00:31:09.959 Let, let's tell all our friends and all their friends and all their friends. 00:31:10.229 --> 00:31:11.729 Sounds like a commercial, doesn't it? 00:31:12.299 --> 00:31:14.759 And I told two people and you told, uh, 00:31:14.774 --> 00:31:15.164 Jethro Jones: yeah. 00:31:15.224 --> 00:31:15.404 Little 00:31:15.509 --> 00:31:17.069 Charles Sosnik: I'm old if I remember that commercial. 00:31:17.069 --> 00:31:20.339 But anyway, and feel free to delete out any of my rambling. 00:31:23.249 --> 00:31:31.979 I find myself bringing in references and I don't realize how old I am, and I'll bring in a reference that's 20 years old thinking everybody can connect to it. 00:31:31.979 --> 00:31:35.399 And no, I'm not 80 years old Charles. 00:31:35.609 --> 00:31:36.929 But, uh, you know, 00:31:38.639 --> 00:31:39.329 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:40.349 Charles Sosnik: or leave it in. 00:31:40.349 --> 00:31:42.569 So everybody will realize I'm a rambling old man. 00:31:42.749 --> 00:31:43.284 Your choice. 00:31:44.489 --> 00:31:45.089 Jethro Jones: Either one. 00:31:45.089 --> 00:31:47.879 I'll tell you, I will leave it in because that's how I do it. 00:31:47.939 --> 00:32:04.049 And I usually don't edit anything out because, um, I want it to be real conversations and real, uh, real people talking and not just, uh, you know, this polished, pristine thing that everybody thinks is, is totally perfect. 00:32:04.049 --> 00:32:06.764 I mean, the way we started was a good example, like. 00:32:07.664 --> 00:32:08.504 We just jumped in. 00:32:08.624 --> 00:32:13.874 And to me that's totally fine and some people are gonna be like, well, who is this guy even that we're talking to? 00:32:13.874 --> 00:32:20.774 But you know, you'll, you can look in the show notes and then you can see and, and besides, you're giving good information, so. 00:32:21.289 --> 00:32:29.629 Charles Sosnik: Well, the, the answer is, um, I'm one of many and my qualifications aren't particularly stellar. 00:32:30.199 --> 00:32:34.609 Um, my greatest qualification is I talk to a lot of people and have for a long time. 00:32:35.204 --> 00:32:39.794 And do my best to absorb their ideas and, and relay them when I can. 00:32:40.214 --> 00:32:41.714 And that's my only qualification. 00:32:41.714 --> 00:32:43.844 I'm not an expert in education at all. 00:32:44.414 --> 00:32:46.844 I was an English major and a journalism major. 00:32:47.594 --> 00:32:52.004 And, uh, I, I have no qualifications in education whatsoever. 00:32:52.004 --> 00:32:52.874 Let me be clear. 00:32:53.474 --> 00:33:02.384 But I talk to really smart people and, uh, I'm bright enough to, to know what I don't know and, and to, to tell you what they said. 00:33:03.044 --> 00:33:04.424 That's my only qualification. 00:33:05.074 --> 00:33:05.364 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:33:06.854 --> 00:33:10.844 And that's, that, that's a pretty good qualification to be honest. 00:33:10.904 --> 00:33:14.114 And, um, none of us gets here on our own. 00:33:14.174 --> 00:33:14.534 Right. 00:33:14.534 --> 00:33:21.824 And so let me ask you about, uh, about what made you get into, uh, education journalism 00:33:22.334 --> 00:33:22.994 Charles Sosnik: Yeah, sure. 00:33:23.384 --> 00:33:25.004 Jethro Jones: what, what was your path there? 00:33:26.564 --> 00:33:33.704 Charles Sosnik: As, uh, I stated at the beginning, I've been in media forever and, uh, I've produced TV of, uh. 00:33:34.154 --> 00:33:35.474 Produce radio. 00:33:35.654 --> 00:33:37.394 I've published publications. 00:33:37.604 --> 00:33:44.684 I had a, a nice little publication company going and I sold it when I was, I think 46, 45 years old. 00:33:45.464 --> 00:33:48.224 And I thought, hot darn, I can retire. 00:33:49.034 --> 00:34:00.674 So, uh, I found out I, I really sucked at golf and, uh, you know, there were, there were a lot of things that, that I could do, but it, it just wasn't fulfilling to me. 00:34:01.034 --> 00:34:13.169 So I, I took a job, I. And an old friend, Arby Knight had a, a little publication called the Southeast Education Network Magazine, and he said, you know, you can be editor of that if you want. 00:34:13.859 --> 00:34:17.429 And I agreed and I jumped in with both hands in both feet. 00:34:17.879 --> 00:34:25.409 And I got on the phone, I started calling people because I knew nothing about education and, and it's gonna be hard to be an education editor if you don't know anything. 00:34:26.009 --> 00:34:31.319 So I had conversations from eight in the morning till eight at night for days and weeks and months. 00:34:32.144 --> 00:34:40.694 I started to understand this education thing and the passion that we're in people, and it, it was just contagious. 00:34:41.324 --> 00:34:52.304 And our little magazine grew to 180 page book that had the greatest minds in education and possibly the greatest thing I've ever done in my life. 00:34:52.844 --> 00:34:57.854 And I did that for about nine years, then struck out on my own with, with some publications. 00:34:58.634 --> 00:35:01.844 And, uh, you know, that that's how I got into it. 00:35:01.844 --> 00:35:10.574 Just by accident, he could have had a, a health publication or a mechanics publication and that's what it could have gone into. 00:35:10.574 --> 00:35:13.004 And I probably would've retired again shortly after. 00:35:13.514 --> 00:35:25.304 But I caught the bug and for the first time in my life I found out what I wanted to do, and money no longer mattered and, and helping people did. 00:35:25.994 --> 00:35:27.104 And that's why I'm in it. 00:35:27.344 --> 00:35:28.334 That's why I stayed in it. 00:35:28.604 --> 00:35:29.024 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:35:29.714 --> 00:35:31.484 That's, that's fantastic. 00:35:31.574 --> 00:35:32.744 I, I love that. 00:35:32.744 --> 00:35:44.069 And it's, it's funny, I was talking to a principal who's considering a, a job change, and, um, I. The job would have been more money. 00:35:44.249 --> 00:36:00.419 But what he was really excited about was that he had the opportunity to, um, to make a bigger impact than he was making and to do things in enough of a different way that like. 00:36:01.229 --> 00:36:05.039 The, the money question was like, okay, whooped, you do it. 00:36:05.099 --> 00:36:08.579 It doesn't matter because like, I already have a great job. 00:36:08.579 --> 00:36:17.759 I already make enough money and more money would be nice, but the impact that I could make would be gigantic. 00:36:17.819 --> 00:36:24.359 And, you know, affecting way more families and helping way more kids would be, would be worthwhile. 00:36:24.359 --> 00:36:24.569 Yeah. 00:36:24.569 --> 00:36:26.729 To come with a little bit more work also, but. 00:36:27.449 --> 00:36:34.439 And, and going back in as, as far as like, he had a pretty good school already. 00:36:34.949 --> 00:36:37.979 Um, and so I'd have to like redo some of those things. 00:36:37.979 --> 00:36:51.299 But, but that idea of scratching that itch that you have, that you may not know that you have and which is what you're sharing, um, is, is really powerful and an amazing thing when people can finally figure that out. 00:36:53.144 --> 00:36:59.039 Charles Sosnik: At, at the end of the day, I'm in the, certainly the last quarter of my professional life. 00:36:59.669 --> 00:37:03.809 You have to ask yourself, what have I accomplished? 00:37:04.469 --> 00:37:05.219 What have I done? 00:37:05.969 --> 00:37:06.779 Who have I helped? 00:37:07.859 --> 00:37:16.079 And I can't think of a, a greater industry, if you will, if education is an industry. 00:37:16.409 --> 00:37:20.369 I can't think of a better industry, um, to help people. 00:37:20.399 --> 00:37:28.649 When I look at the people in education, being a teacher, you might touch 20 to 30 lives a year. 00:37:29.144 --> 00:37:37.544 I mean, honestly, touch those lives and, and help them find out who they are and, and have the greatest life they can have. 00:37:38.294 --> 00:37:39.794 Who else can even say that? 00:37:40.484 --> 00:37:41.834 You know who else can do that? 00:37:41.864 --> 00:37:53.474 When you change from being a teacher to a principal, you're no longer working one-on-one with these kids, but now you can influence 20 teachers who influence 30 students. 00:37:53.984 --> 00:37:59.144 So you can touch 600 lives in a year and change 600 lives. 00:38:00.734 --> 00:38:02.774 That is a magnificent life well lived. 00:38:03.614 --> 00:38:11.594 So people in education are given a gift and that they, they help change lives. 00:38:12.254 --> 00:38:16.904 So at the end of it all, when you, you look back and you say, what have I done? 00:38:18.014 --> 00:38:23.144 If you're a teacher, if you're a principal, you, that's a life well lived. 00:38:24.104 --> 00:38:25.154 Money doesn't matter. 00:38:25.154 --> 00:38:29.954 If you can feed yourself and clothe yourself and house yourself, what else do you need? 00:38:29.954 --> 00:38:32.564 I mean, seriously, do you need a new car? 00:38:32.804 --> 00:38:33.314 No. 00:38:33.314 --> 00:38:37.664 I, I drive a 25-year-old Ford truck. 00:38:39.104 --> 00:38:42.584 It gets from point A to point B. What else do you need? 00:38:43.664 --> 00:38:45.434 What, what do you, what are you doing to help people? 00:38:46.544 --> 00:38:52.034 You know, if, if I don't want to get into religion, because that's not the, you know, why we're here, but. 00:38:52.439 --> 00:39:01.079 If you have those beliefs or belief in God, or a belief in, in higher power, all religions that I know of have the same basic tenets. 00:39:01.439 --> 00:39:03.779 You know, love yourself, love others, and help other people. 00:39:04.589 --> 00:39:07.919 So whatever religion you're into, that's probably part of it. 00:39:08.669 --> 00:39:10.379 Education is a great gig, man. 00:39:11.324 --> 00:39:12.764 Jethro Jones: Yeah, it sure is. 00:39:13.754 --> 00:39:16.724 Um, yeah, that, I think that's a great place to end it. 00:39:16.724 --> 00:39:19.394 This was a wonderful con conversation, Charles. 00:39:19.424 --> 00:39:25.694 And, um, I'm gonna put your email, uh, a way to contact you in the, uh. 00:39:26.264 --> 00:39:31.484 In the show notes@transformativeprinciple.org and, and here's the takeaway, folks. 00:39:31.484 --> 00:39:47.054 If you're listening, our challenge to you is to go on a podcast, write an article, or start your own podcast or your own blog or whatever to get your voice out there because your voice really does matter. 00:39:47.054 --> 00:39:48.794 Anything you want to add to that, Charles? 00:39:49.904 --> 00:39:52.244 Charles Sosnik: I, I think that's so important, Jethro. 00:39:52.724 --> 00:39:54.854 Um, your ideas matter. 00:39:54.854 --> 00:39:58.394 Your voice matters, and, and take the time. 00:39:58.994 --> 00:40:04.154 Because it's important and you're helping people, and I thank you for that. 00:40:04.334 --> 00:40:13.724 And I'm so proud of all the people that listen to the show and are in education and, and read our magazines and together, let's get this thing done, man. 00:40:14.334 --> 00:40:15.449 Jethro Jones: Yeah, very good. 00:40:15.779 --> 00:40:18.749 And if you need help with any of that stuff, starting a blog. 00:40:18.839 --> 00:40:31.289 Starting a podcast, whatever it is, getting on there, um, get on their people's podcasts, just reach out to me, uh, at jetro Jones on all the socials, and I would love to connect you with people who can help you with that. 00:40:31.289 --> 00:40:35.099 And, uh, thanks everybody for listening to Transformative Principle. 00:40:35.249 --> 00:40:40.859 Again, connect with Charles at in the show notes@transformativeprinciple.org. 00:40:41.309 --> 00:40:43.139 Thanks again, Charles, appreciate you being here. 00:40:43.799 --> 00:40:44.399 Charles Sosnik: My pleasure.