1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,880 And we are, are not that far along yet. 2 00:00:03,180 --> 00:00:08,250 Um, we are, you know, starting with this significant improvement that we thought 3 00:00:08,250 --> 00:00:11,700 that we could ship and, and we shipped it and it is a significant improvement. 4 00:00:12,120 --> 00:00:16,230 But I think to be able to do everything is definitely going to take more 5 00:00:16,230 --> 00:00:23,040 time and more development work and mostly the way to solve this problem of. 6 00:00:23,550 --> 00:00:25,500 Everyone needing it. 7 00:00:25,710 --> 00:00:29,040 We're, we're making sure that everyone doesn't need it, right? 8 00:00:29,250 --> 00:00:32,790 The, the initial version just happens to install 9 00:00:32,790 --> 00:00:35,850 Ruby in one second instead of 10 to 40 minutes. 10 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,905 And if you have the right version of Ruby and you want that one improvement. 11 00:00:41,655 --> 00:00:42,525 Knock yourself out. 12 00:00:42,675 --> 00:00:43,665 We, we offer that. 13 00:00:43,665 --> 00:00:44,175 It's great. 14 00:00:44,325 --> 00:00:48,285 Some people have said that they are using it and very excited about 15 00:00:48,285 --> 00:00:53,985 it in the last 24 hours, but it means that we can incrementally 16 00:00:54,015 --> 00:00:58,995 improve the other use cases that we have on the roadmap over time. 17 00:00:59,325 --> 00:01:01,800 And I, I don't feel like our goal. 18 00:01:02,535 --> 00:01:08,025 Is necessarily the same as uvs in the sense that we need to convince people 19 00:01:08,025 --> 00:01:13,365 to switch off of six or seven different competing tools towards our tool. 20 00:01:13,485 --> 00:01:20,265 The difference is just that we need to offer a better user experience 21 00:01:20,384 --> 00:01:26,055 than the, you know, two or three Ruby version managers that exist today. 22 00:01:26,115 --> 00:01:28,365 And once we've done that, hopefully people 23 00:01:28,365 --> 00:01:30,405 will feel motivated to use our tool instead. 24 00:01:36,375 --> 00:01:38,235 Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. 25 00:01:38,235 --> 00:01:42,015 I'm Corey Quinn, and today we are screaming in the past. 26 00:01:42,075 --> 00:01:46,365 Andre Arco, CEO at Spinel Cooperative comes to us 27 00:01:46,365 --> 00:01:49,875 from the past, by which I mean the Ruby community. 28 00:01:49,935 --> 00:01:51,285 Andre, how have you been? 29 00:01:52,433 --> 00:01:52,761 Hi Corey. 30 00:01:52,761 --> 00:01:53,417 It's great. 31 00:01:53,417 --> 00:01:53,745 Great 32 00:01:53,745 --> 00:01:54,495 to see you. 33 00:01:54,855 --> 00:01:55,275 Um. 34 00:01:55,605 --> 00:01:57,675 I, I have been in the past apparently. 35 00:01:57,735 --> 00:02:02,025 Um, you know, I, I do spend a lot of time talking to people about how 36 00:02:02,025 --> 00:02:07,755 Ruby is dead now or whatever, and, uh, I, what I always tell them is, uh, 37 00:02:07,815 --> 00:02:11,355 in that case, I hope that you would be happy to sign up for the pager. 38 00:02:11,820 --> 00:02:16,440 That keeps going off because traffic has grown by 20% a year for the last 10 39 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,250 years at Ruby Gems and I keep getting woken up in the middle of the night, 40 00:02:20,250 --> 00:02:23,519 so I'd be happy to hand that off to anyone who's convinced Ruby is dead. 41 00:02:24,420 --> 00:02:26,940 This episode is sponsored in part by my day Job 42 00:02:27,180 --> 00:02:27,899 Duck Bill. 43 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,700 Do you have a horrifying AWS bill? 44 00:02:30,970 --> 00:02:32,859 That can mean a lot of things. 45 00:02:33,100 --> 00:02:38,170 Predicting what it's going to be, determining what it should be, negotiating 46 00:02:38,170 --> 00:02:43,600 your next long-term contract with AWS, or just figuring out why it increasingly 47 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:48,130 resembles a phone number, but nobody seems to quite know why that is. 48 00:02:48,430 --> 00:02:49,480 To learn more visit. 49 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,000 Bill hq.com. 50 00:02:52,300 --> 00:02:55,150 Remember, you can't duck the duck bill. 51 00:02:55,210 --> 00:02:59,980 Bill, which my CEO reliably informs me is absolutely not our slogan. 52 00:03:01,275 --> 00:03:03,555 I, I like that it's one of those boring things that, 53 00:03:03,555 --> 00:03:06,015 you know, runs half the internet as we know it. 54 00:03:06,045 --> 00:03:10,125 In fact, I, I, it's, our timing on this is very apt because I'm on 55 00:03:10,125 --> 00:03:12,735 the bus frantically heading home this morning from an appointment to 56 00:03:12,735 --> 00:03:15,795 be on time for this, and I'm checking, you know, slack because blue 57 00:03:15,795 --> 00:03:19,245 sky was boring and one of my colleagues pointed out that Ruby is. 58 00:03:19,490 --> 00:03:23,150 Picking up a new trick from the Python world and link to your post on rv. 59 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,140 And my response to that was, well, I shit you not, I'm talking to him in 15 60 00:03:27,140 --> 00:03:30,170 minutes on the podcast, like, I'm sitting here pulling leaves off a flower. 61 00:03:30,170 --> 00:03:30,800 He shits me. 62 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:31,400 He shits me. 63 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,160 Not exactly, but no, I shit you not. 64 00:03:34,490 --> 00:03:36,650 So our timing is superb. 65 00:03:36,650 --> 00:03:41,210 Now that you have some stuff coming out of the skunkworks, tell me about rv. 66 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:41,660 What is it? 67 00:03:42,265 --> 00:03:42,984 Absolutely. 68 00:03:43,015 --> 00:03:48,234 So the, the biggest, uh, inspiration for RV is, uh, 69 00:03:48,265 --> 00:03:50,484 the, in the PI coming from the Python community. 70 00:03:50,875 --> 00:03:54,505 They, you know, historically the Python community has had a 71 00:03:54,505 --> 00:03:57,625 lot of options if you wanted to manage dependencies, right? 72 00:03:57,625 --> 00:04:00,805 Like, uh, the Ruby community historically had Ruby 73 00:04:00,805 --> 00:04:04,045 Gems and the other options kind of fell by the wayside. 74 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,080 And then had Bundler and the other options never really got off the ground. 75 00:04:08,170 --> 00:04:10,330 And so in the Ruby community, if you want to 76 00:04:10,330 --> 00:04:12,430 manage dependencies, you just use Bundler. 77 00:04:12,550 --> 00:04:15,850 And 99.9% of everyone is on the same page as you. 78 00:04:16,090 --> 00:04:17,500 But in the Python community, you had to 79 00:04:17,500 --> 00:04:19,840 say, oh, are you using PIP or Pippen for. 80 00:04:20,294 --> 00:04:23,325 Poetry or six other tools that I don't 81 00:04:23,325 --> 00:04:25,005 remember the names of off the top of my head. 82 00:04:25,065 --> 00:04:27,015 And if you disagree with this, you're not listening to the 83 00:04:27,015 --> 00:04:30,015 podcast because you're too busy solving dependency problems. 84 00:04:30,854 --> 00:04:32,085 Right, exactly. 85 00:04:32,145 --> 00:04:35,695 And so UV is super interesting to me because as. 86 00:04:36,315 --> 00:04:39,315 A, you know, a, uh, package management enthusiast. 87 00:04:39,675 --> 00:04:43,845 Uh, I, I watched the Python community sort of like shift in real 88 00:04:43,845 --> 00:04:48,315 time over the last year from, we use 17 different tools and no one 89 00:04:48,315 --> 00:04:51,975 can agree about which the best one is to, well, actually everyone 90 00:04:51,975 --> 00:04:55,575 pretty much agrees that UV is the best tool and maybe you don't use. 91 00:04:56,885 --> 00:05:00,245 I do wanna push back on that a smidgen, because I still remember 92 00:05:00,245 --> 00:05:04,895 and have the scars to prove it from the RVM versus RBN War wars. 93 00:05:04,895 --> 00:05:09,424 Where, okay, how are we gonna handle all the languages on our developer laptops? 94 00:05:09,455 --> 00:05:11,284 I'm just gonna overwrite the system. 95 00:05:11,284 --> 00:05:12,965 Ruby seems like a bad plan. 96 00:05:13,534 --> 00:05:14,195 Oh, man. 97 00:05:14,344 --> 00:05:20,945 Um, I, I do have to say as, as the maintainer of Bundler during that era. 98 00:05:21,300 --> 00:05:24,630 Uh, I, I actually hate all of the environment dependency 99 00:05:24,630 --> 00:05:27,960 version management tools because they would all get in fights 100 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:32,340 with Bundler, and Bundler would lose in the sense that they 101 00:05:32,340 --> 00:05:35,250 would break Bundler and then we would get tickets about it. 102 00:05:35,340 --> 00:05:40,890 And so I personally, I ended up for the last decade just using, uh, C 103 00:05:41,010 --> 00:05:45,540 Ruby, which sets some shell variables and does nothing else whatsoever. 104 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,000 Stupid shell tricks every time. 105 00:05:48,435 --> 00:05:49,155 Exactly. 106 00:05:49,245 --> 00:05:55,245 So, uh, so over in the Python world, UV has over the last year become 107 00:05:55,335 --> 00:06:00,255 this kind of like, uh, al almost consistent standard for people to 108 00:06:00,255 --> 00:06:03,224 use if they need to manage their Python projects or their Python 109 00:06:03,224 --> 00:06:06,974 tools, which is incredibly impressive to me because I feel like 110 00:06:06,974 --> 00:06:10,755 Python was starting much farther behind than Ruby, where they didn't 111 00:06:10,755 --> 00:06:14,115 even have a tool that everyone had rallied behind for, you know. 112 00:06:14,460 --> 00:06:18,210 10 years and, and using UV myself. 113 00:06:19,170 --> 00:06:20,700 I was blown away. 114 00:06:21,030 --> 00:06:21,659 It's amazing. 115 00:06:21,659 --> 00:06:24,719 It, I dunno how it does with magic that it does, but it is super fast. 116 00:06:24,719 --> 00:06:27,240 It doesn't stomp other things you have going on. 117 00:06:27,450 --> 00:06:30,750 You type uv, vn, press enter, and by the time you remove 118 00:06:30,750 --> 00:06:33,599 your finger back from the enter key, it has the virtual 119 00:06:33,599 --> 00:06:37,440 environment ready to go of whatever version you have specified. 120 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,159 Uh, uv, uh, PIP install, you know, list of dependencies. 121 00:06:41,310 --> 00:06:43,380 It does massive parallelization. 122 00:06:43,409 --> 00:06:45,330 I'm pretty sure that they have. 123 00:06:45,410 --> 00:06:48,710 I don't know, tortured a witch into making it as fast 124 00:06:48,710 --> 00:06:51,200 as it is somehow, because it's the only thing that I can 125 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,110 find that would explain it and it is, it is life changing. 126 00:06:54,260 --> 00:06:55,490 You've, and they're like, oh, well I wanna 127 00:06:55,490 --> 00:06:57,710 install something globally that runs everywhere. 128 00:06:57,710 --> 00:06:57,920 Yeah. 129 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,820 UV tool install and then you give it whatever you want to. 130 00:07:01,820 --> 00:07:03,950 It's how I use my A CLI these days. 131 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:05,210 It's phenomenal. 132 00:07:05,210 --> 00:07:06,440 Across the board. 133 00:07:06,740 --> 00:07:09,950 Everything about UV has made my life better except for 134 00:07:09,950 --> 00:07:11,455 the part where I still have to work with computers. 135 00:07:12,435 --> 00:07:13,335 Right, right. 136 00:07:13,545 --> 00:07:14,265 Absolutely. 137 00:07:14,355 --> 00:07:20,325 Uh, and, and so as a, as a Ruby developer, I would use some Python 138 00:07:20,325 --> 00:07:23,505 tools and say, wow, UV has made my life better in every way. 139 00:07:23,505 --> 00:07:26,350 And then I would turn around and open my Ruby Project and say, oh, no. 140 00:07:27,300 --> 00:07:31,050 Uh, it's not making my life any better now. 141 00:07:31,260 --> 00:07:33,420 Yeah, it feels like docker containers were the only way to handle 142 00:07:33,420 --> 00:07:36,450 Ruby projects because everything was so specific as far as how 143 00:07:36,450 --> 00:07:39,420 it worked, that even with some of the, of the package management 144 00:07:39,420 --> 00:07:42,480 stuff that was out there, it still felt like I was always teetering 145 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,360 on the brink of disastrously screwing up my Ruby environment. 146 00:07:45,930 --> 00:07:46,860 Yes, yes. 147 00:07:46,860 --> 00:07:51,300 And that, that was definitely a significant amount of the motivation. 148 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:56,820 I have been kind of like kicking around in the back of my mind, a better 149 00:07:56,820 --> 00:08:02,310 version dependency management tool for, for like probably 10 years now. 150 00:08:02,310 --> 00:08:07,980 I've been like, oh man, I really wish that I didn't have to, you know, install. 151 00:08:09,734 --> 00:08:13,544 RBN and then install Ruby Build and then install a Ruby and 152 00:08:13,544 --> 00:08:16,395 then switch to that Ruby and then install Ruby Gems and then 153 00:08:16,395 --> 00:08:20,385 install Bundler and then install my gems and then have a project 154 00:08:20,565 --> 00:08:22,034 and it doesn't clean up after itself. 155 00:08:22,034 --> 00:08:23,715 Like on, on my desktop right here. 156 00:08:23,715 --> 00:08:26,505 If I. Fire up a terminal on the right hand prompt. 157 00:08:26,594 --> 00:08:30,195 Uh, I believe that's what PS two, whatever it's is, uh, the, yeah, 158 00:08:30,284 --> 00:08:33,949 where it winds up, uh, listing out that I'm using Ruby version 3.0 0.0. 159 00:08:34,694 --> 00:08:35,385 Why? 160 00:08:35,385 --> 00:08:36,735 What does it need Ruby for? 161 00:08:36,735 --> 00:08:37,694 I don't know. 162 00:08:37,694 --> 00:08:40,155 Does my laptop, which has the same config say that? 163 00:08:40,155 --> 00:08:41,924 No, it shuts up about Ruby. 164 00:08:41,924 --> 00:08:44,265 Like I wish some people would, but never seem to, 165 00:08:44,505 --> 00:08:46,725 uh, we know who I'm speaking of when I say that. 166 00:08:46,935 --> 00:08:47,500 Uh, not you. 167 00:08:47,830 --> 00:08:52,000 To be clear, uh, there are, uh, it, but in this case, I don't know 168 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,910 what I did one day when I was trying to get something to work. 169 00:08:54,910 --> 00:08:56,380 And honestly, I'm scared to touch it 170 00:08:56,380 --> 00:08:58,240 because that's where breakage has come from. 171 00:08:58,510 --> 00:09:00,370 It's just, it's one of the great mysteries. 172 00:09:01,094 --> 00:09:02,925 Definitely one of the great mysteries, 173 00:09:03,045 --> 00:09:04,364 whereas Python is decent. 174 00:09:04,364 --> 00:09:05,145 Python cleans 175 00:09:05,145 --> 00:09:06,435 up after its mess. 176 00:09:08,084 --> 00:09:08,744 Definitely. 177 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,074 I, I definitely feel like UV is contributing to this, so, 178 00:09:12,224 --> 00:09:15,165 well, I, I still remember back in the CentOS five days 179 00:09:15,165 --> 00:09:18,135 when I was up in support people on IRC and whatnot. 180 00:09:18,165 --> 00:09:18,974 'cause I was a, uh. 181 00:09:19,070 --> 00:09:22,070 My minor part of the project and people would say, okay, great. 182 00:09:22,070 --> 00:09:27,080 So I've installed, I, I've upgraded my system, Python, now what do I do? 183 00:09:27,350 --> 00:09:28,850 And it's like, well, that broke yum. 184 00:09:28,850 --> 00:09:31,640 So now you get to reinstall your operating system. 185 00:09:31,820 --> 00:09:32,090 Yeah. 186 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,280 Back your shit up and try again. 187 00:09:34,490 --> 00:09:37,910 Which as it turns out, was not the most supportive 188 00:09:37,910 --> 00:09:40,610 thing we could have said, but it was honest. 189 00:09:40,610 --> 00:09:42,560 It's, oh, great, you've broke it and now 190 00:09:42,560 --> 00:09:44,660 you get to keep the pieces good for you. 191 00:09:45,105 --> 00:09:48,435 Absolutely in seriousness, I wanted to call out where Ruby's been. 192 00:09:48,435 --> 00:09:48,705 Great. 193 00:09:48,975 --> 00:09:53,565 Uh, it has always been spectacular at, I have an idea and I wanna build it. 194 00:09:53,565 --> 00:09:56,955 I'm going to reach for something that gets me, uh, 195 00:09:56,985 --> 00:09:59,655 from start to finish, largely with batteries included. 196 00:09:59,715 --> 00:10:01,185 And Ruby has been the. 197 00:10:01,295 --> 00:10:01,805 Thing. 198 00:10:02,074 --> 00:10:04,415 Uh, my last real job was a ruby shop. 199 00:10:04,415 --> 00:10:06,905 I remember that we spent the year there trying to figure out 200 00:10:06,905 --> 00:10:11,974 how to upgrade from, I wanna say 1.8 0.3 into something modern, 201 00:10:12,125 --> 00:10:15,334 uh, at the time, which was still a few versions beyond that. 202 00:10:15,814 --> 00:10:19,834 And as it turns out, the way that we did that was we got the company acquired 203 00:10:19,834 --> 00:10:23,495 by BlackRock, who then took the product and smothered it to death in its crib. 204 00:10:23,525 --> 00:10:25,415 And, you know, time marches on. 205 00:10:25,685 --> 00:10:27,844 I have not been there for almost a decade, and I 206 00:10:27,905 --> 00:10:29,915 don't imagine it ever got fixed in that context. 207 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:30,590 Ruby. 208 00:10:30,620 --> 00:10:32,990 Ruby upgrade satisfactorily resolved. 209 00:10:33,050 --> 00:10:34,430 You know, great work. 210 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,720 This was such a monolith, the time, and again, it's easy to blame 211 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,350 the language for it, but you can commit atrocities in any language. 212 00:10:42,350 --> 00:10:46,160 As it turns out, I, I used to be deep in the puppet world and 213 00:10:46,220 --> 00:10:48,320 had enough problems with the way they did config management. 214 00:10:48,560 --> 00:10:49,100 That alright? 215 00:10:49,100 --> 00:10:51,710 I was one of the early developers behind SaltStack and, good. 216 00:10:51,710 --> 00:10:52,520 This'll fix it. 217 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,360 And nope, you can give someone the latest generation shiny lap. 218 00:10:56,495 --> 00:10:58,805 Top and they wonder about the bad hammer 219 00:10:58,805 --> 00:11:00,620 you just sold them when they hold it wrong. 220 00:11:01,605 --> 00:11:04,275 Oh man, that, that really brings back memories. 221 00:11:04,305 --> 00:11:09,195 Uh, I, I was friends with the, uh, the puppet crew back in the day of whatever 222 00:11:09,195 --> 00:11:14,475 that was, the mid to late two thousands as we were all doing fancy ruby things. 223 00:11:14,535 --> 00:11:18,375 And I, I mean, I gotta say it was a big step up from, we have 224 00:11:18,375 --> 00:11:21,585 a shell script that we run anytime we stand up a new server. 225 00:11:22,305 --> 00:11:25,515 Chef kind of went too far in the ruby direction from my perspective 226 00:11:25,515 --> 00:11:29,025 at the time because the, I remember that was the one, uh, config 227 00:11:29,025 --> 00:11:31,995 management tool I never really got into because it really didn't 228 00:11:31,995 --> 00:11:34,875 have its own DSL so much as it had just write your config. 229 00:11:34,875 --> 00:11:38,025 And Ruby, the problem is, is back in that era, you're 230 00:11:38,025 --> 00:11:40,035 talking to a bunch of CIS admins and you're telling 231 00:11:40,035 --> 00:11:43,275 them, oh, you should just become a software engineer and. 232 00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:46,320 For the few that were willing and able to do that they, they 233 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,560 discovered, especially in large companies, very quickly, it's, huh, 234 00:11:49,770 --> 00:11:54,660 I could go work somewhere else for a 60% raise and not be on call. 235 00:11:54,990 --> 00:11:56,850 I think I'm gonna go do that instead. 236 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,550 So there was an upskilling that was required, 237 00:11:59,550 --> 00:12:01,410 that was a hard leap for most of us to make. 238 00:12:01,410 --> 00:12:02,880 I certainly couldn't make the leap at the time. 239 00:12:03,615 --> 00:12:04,905 That's fascinating. 240 00:12:04,935 --> 00:12:08,084 I guess I never really thought about the impact that Chef 241 00:12:08,084 --> 00:12:11,354 had coming from the other direction since I was already 242 00:12:11,505 --> 00:12:13,995 a software engineer by the time that I encountered Chef. 243 00:12:14,385 --> 00:12:18,689 And so for me, the enormous frustration was that Chef made you build. 244 00:12:19,935 --> 00:12:26,565 Uh, very strange ruby building blocks that you then had to plug into 245 00:12:26,565 --> 00:12:30,645 your chef scripts rather than being able to just write some ruby. 246 00:12:31,005 --> 00:12:36,015 And so from the, from the opposite side, there is. 247 00:12:36,555 --> 00:12:41,055 A, a very difficult, you know, kind of like hard to figure 248 00:12:41,055 --> 00:12:44,385 out, like, wait, what is the API that this has to conform to? 249 00:12:44,385 --> 00:12:50,025 Why does this have to, uh, you know, fit into exactly this weird 250 00:12:50,235 --> 00:12:54,135 plugin structure that you've decided all chef things have to fit into? 251 00:12:54,345 --> 00:12:59,025 And it was not well documented to the point where the 252 00:12:59,025 --> 00:13:02,415 easiest way to learn how to write chef modules was to buy 253 00:13:02,415 --> 00:13:05,265 the O'Reilly book and not to read the chef documentation. 254 00:13:06,074 --> 00:13:08,895 Or in some cases even to read the code, which gets you 255 00:13:08,895 --> 00:13:11,295 back to, and now you're a software engineer puppet. 256 00:13:11,295 --> 00:13:12,525 It always seemed it was tar. 257 00:13:12,704 --> 00:13:14,834 They went with the DSL for Puppet, which is its own problem. 258 00:13:14,834 --> 00:13:16,605 You have to write a specific language for a tool. 259 00:13:16,605 --> 00:13:20,444 It already feels like you're going down the wrong path, but it was, it felt 260 00:13:20,444 --> 00:13:23,444 like it was much more squarely aimed at the systems administrator type, 261 00:13:23,775 --> 00:13:28,275 where a lot of what it was doing felt a lot more shell script friendly esque. 262 00:13:29,145 --> 00:13:32,625 You, you could obviously break out into Ruby with it, but most people didn't. 263 00:13:32,625 --> 00:13:35,415 And it was considered an anti-pattern for good reason. 264 00:13:35,745 --> 00:13:38,445 The the biggest problem in many cases with the config management 265 00:13:38,445 --> 00:13:41,355 stuff that I learned, and this is a truism programming everywhere. 266 00:13:41,865 --> 00:13:44,805 You can be really clever with these things. 267 00:13:44,805 --> 00:13:48,375 The problem is, is that someone maybe you in six months has 268 00:13:48,375 --> 00:13:51,465 to untangle the rat's nest of being clever to figure out what 269 00:13:51,465 --> 00:13:54,135 the hell it's doing and why it even worked in the first place. 270 00:13:54,405 --> 00:13:57,195 So simple is a lot more scalable. 271 00:13:57,915 --> 00:13:58,335 Yep. 272 00:13:58,455 --> 00:13:59,325 Absolutely. 273 00:13:59,715 --> 00:14:00,525 Absolutely. 274 00:14:00,645 --> 00:14:06,314 That is definitely one of the, uh, more intangible 275 00:14:06,314 --> 00:14:09,915 essences that we are attempting to capture with RV here 276 00:14:09,915 --> 00:14:14,265 is what if you could do stuff and it was just simple to. 277 00:14:15,255 --> 00:14:17,595 Clearly state the thing that you wanted 278 00:14:17,595 --> 00:14:20,355 to happen and then it would happen, right? 279 00:14:20,595 --> 00:14:25,005 Instead of this pile of six things that are all dependent 280 00:14:25,005 --> 00:14:26,955 on each other that you have to set up correctly. 281 00:14:26,955 --> 00:14:29,955 And if you knock one of them out, your software no longer runs. 282 00:14:30,375 --> 00:14:32,265 It's just one tool. 283 00:14:32,505 --> 00:14:36,225 That's just one executable binary with no dependencies. 284 00:14:36,375 --> 00:14:39,375 And then you can just say, I would like to run 285 00:14:39,375 --> 00:14:42,465 this Ruby, and we make sure that that ruby. 286 00:14:43,170 --> 00:14:46,560 Exists and is configured and is available, and 287 00:14:46,710 --> 00:14:49,020 then we run it with the thing that you want. 288 00:14:49,860 --> 00:14:51,150 Hopefully to run. 289 00:14:51,510 --> 00:14:56,760 Um, and so our, our, uh, you know, again, inspired by uv, the 290 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:01,770 ultimate goal is to fully kind of like encompass the entire range 291 00:15:01,770 --> 00:15:05,220 of anything that you might want to do while you're running Ruby 292 00:15:05,220 --> 00:15:09,210 Code, whether that's the Ruby interpreter itself, or a command 293 00:15:09,210 --> 00:15:12,240 line tool that happens to be written and packaged as a ruby gem. 294 00:15:12,545 --> 00:15:16,745 Or it's, you know, like your fancy web application and you want to be able to 295 00:15:16,745 --> 00:15:21,245 run it with all of its dependencies included in a ruby that actually works. 296 00:15:21,515 --> 00:15:25,204 Uh, but you just wanna run one command and have it all actually happen for you. 297 00:15:25,324 --> 00:15:28,505 So that's, that's kind of like the, the UV 298 00:15:28,505 --> 00:15:30,964 inspired vision that we're aiming for with rv. 299 00:15:31,564 --> 00:15:37,954 Uh, and then today, kind of like as our, our first effort demonstration of what. 300 00:15:38,310 --> 00:15:40,140 Towards what we think is possible. 301 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:47,610 Uh, we've shipped just the initial ruby version management part of the tool. 302 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:54,810 Uh, but the cool thing about this part of the tool is that installing Ruby 303 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:59,790 with all of that entire, like, you know, pile of Ruby version managers, 304 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:06,840 R-V-M-R-B-N-C, Ruby, Ruby build, Ruby, install, uh, all those things, they all. 305 00:16:07,589 --> 00:16:12,449 Expect you to download a source tar ball for whatever Ruby version 306 00:16:12,449 --> 00:16:16,229 you want, and then start to compile it yourself on your machine. 307 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,280 And so installing Ruby, you know, depending on exactly 308 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:23,310 how new and fast and fancy your Mac is, is somewhere 309 00:16:23,310 --> 00:16:26,459 between a five minute process and a 20 minute process. 310 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,920 And honestly, if you're on the tiniest digital 311 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,530 ocean droplet, a 40 minute process because, 312 00:16:31,620 --> 00:16:34,740 or raspberry pie, which we're still waiting for that to finish, 313 00:16:34,740 --> 00:16:37,140 I'll let you know and send a postcard if we ever get there. 314 00:16:37,470 --> 00:16:38,400 Sounds amazing. 315 00:16:38,490 --> 00:16:42,150 Um, so the, the nice thing that we wanted 316 00:16:42,150 --> 00:16:44,760 to build as kind of like our first proof of. 317 00:16:45,224 --> 00:16:49,094 The direction we want to go is RV installs pre-compiled rubies. 318 00:16:49,395 --> 00:16:52,724 We have a setup in GitHub actions that makes sure that there's 319 00:16:52,724 --> 00:16:56,295 a ruby that works for the platforms that we support, which so 320 00:16:56,295 --> 00:17:00,795 far is recent Mac os within the last couple of Y two or three 321 00:17:00,795 --> 00:17:04,305 years and recent Ubuntu within the last two or three years. 322 00:17:04,335 --> 00:17:07,875 But if you install a Ruby version that we support. 323 00:17:08,385 --> 00:17:13,635 It's installed in one second, like there's, turns out prefilled 324 00:17:13,635 --> 00:17:17,295 binaries install a lot faster than, you know, source tar balls 325 00:17:17,295 --> 00:17:20,355 that have to run, configure, and then make and then make install. 326 00:17:20,535 --> 00:17:20,625 Yeah. 327 00:17:20,625 --> 00:17:20,954 My 328 00:17:20,954 --> 00:17:23,745 philosophy on this, and this is controversial, I know this, but I, 329 00:17:23,745 --> 00:17:26,535 I've always found that with least when you're targeting Mac as a 330 00:17:26,565 --> 00:17:30,440 development environment, it's a lot easier from the perspective of I. 331 00:17:31,155 --> 00:17:35,715 At some point if you are no longer getting security updates for your 332 00:17:35,715 --> 00:17:39,375 operating system, which Apple moves off of pretty quickly, as time 333 00:17:39,375 --> 00:17:43,695 advances, I find I don't have to worry about your version of the 334 00:17:43,695 --> 00:17:47,235 operating system anymore, like when it goes end of support by the vendor. 335 00:17:47,495 --> 00:17:50,284 I'm not gonna sit here with bailing wire and popsicle 336 00:17:50,284 --> 00:17:52,354 sticks trying to keep the thing on life support. 337 00:17:52,385 --> 00:17:53,945 I, I find that I can move on. 338 00:17:54,185 --> 00:17:54,784 Counterpoint. 339 00:17:54,784 --> 00:17:58,385 I don't build anything that has a widespread install base. 340 00:17:58,594 --> 00:18:00,574 So do you agree, disagree? 341 00:18:00,604 --> 00:18:02,014 Like how, how do you think about that? 342 00:18:02,715 --> 00:18:06,165 Coming from the, the position of being on the Bundler 343 00:18:06,165 --> 00:18:10,545 team for the last 15 years, it has been an ongoing 344 00:18:10,545 --> 00:18:13,845 struggle to know exactly how far back we should support. 345 00:18:14,535 --> 00:18:20,145 Primarily because Apple ships a ruby so far beyond end of life. 346 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:21,790 That, uh, I don't know. 347 00:18:21,790 --> 00:18:24,070 Like it should do a licensing concern. 348 00:18:24,100 --> 00:18:24,520 Yeah. 349 00:18:24,580 --> 00:18:25,120 Yeah. 350 00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:27,280 And on some level, like I, that's the beautiful 351 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,080 thing about not having a large install base. 352 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,590 I can take a professional support policy, eh, fuck them kids, 353 00:18:32,830 --> 00:18:36,130 but that's not something you can do at scale most of the time. 354 00:18:36,790 --> 00:18:37,420 Yeah. 355 00:18:37,450 --> 00:18:41,770 So, so we're attempting to, you know, resolve this tension 356 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:46,720 kind of initially, at least by stating that our goal is to 357 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,960 support any Ruby that hasn't been end of life to already. 358 00:18:50,415 --> 00:18:59,025 And hope, hopefully our users plan to stay, you know, live and upgraded if the 359 00:18:59,025 --> 00:19:03,734 upgrade, you know, if the install process is one second rather than 10 minutes, 360 00:19:03,734 --> 00:19:07,755 maybe that's an additional incentive to occasionally apply Ruby upgrades. 361 00:19:08,054 --> 00:19:13,125 But yeah, the, the Ruby Core team has sort of semi-recently settled on kind 362 00:19:13,125 --> 00:19:18,764 of like a yearly cadence and a two or three yearly end of Lifeing policy. 363 00:19:19,275 --> 00:19:22,125 And I honestly, I think that's pretty reasonable. 364 00:19:22,125 --> 00:19:26,444 Like there will be a version of RV that was built to 365 00:19:26,444 --> 00:19:30,824 support, you know, the rubies that were viable this year. 366 00:19:30,884 --> 00:19:34,014 And if you want to use the new rv, maybe you should also use the new Ruby. 367 00:19:35,054 --> 00:19:40,364 Yeah, on some level, I, I have to think, and please, I, I fully accept 368 00:19:40,364 --> 00:19:43,694 that I could be way off base, I'm the problem, et cetera, et cetera 369 00:19:43,725 --> 00:19:48,014 when it comes to this, but it feels like if you're going to be doing any 370 00:19:48,014 --> 00:19:52,574 kind of Ruby development or working with Ruby on a Mac, which let's face 371 00:19:52,574 --> 00:19:55,304 it, is where an awful lot of development lives these days, I feel you 372 00:19:55,304 --> 00:19:59,534 can safely assume that you will not be using the system Ruby to do it. 373 00:19:59,685 --> 00:20:01,094 Is that a fair assumption? 374 00:20:01,605 --> 00:20:04,214 That, that is a fair assumption because the system, 375 00:20:04,214 --> 00:20:07,605 Ruby doesn't actually work with anything anymore. 376 00:20:07,725 --> 00:20:11,145 Um, the system Ruby today that ships in the very 377 00:20:11,145 --> 00:20:14,415 newest Mac Os was end of life more than five years ago. 378 00:20:15,315 --> 00:20:17,085 It almost feels like they'd be doing a better service 379 00:20:17,085 --> 00:20:18,014 to not include it at all. 380 00:20:18,509 --> 00:20:22,649 They, apple has been threatening to remove system Ruby for more than 381 00:20:22,649 --> 00:20:27,750 five years, and my theory on why they keep not removing it with each 382 00:20:27,810 --> 00:20:32,429 subsequent release is that it would break their own tools built against it. 383 00:20:32,489 --> 00:20:37,169 That they haven't had time to rewrite from scratch to no longer be Ruby Scripts. 384 00:20:37,770 --> 00:20:41,759 But there are scripts down in the bowels of Mac os that, uh, that are 385 00:20:41,759 --> 00:20:44,909 absolutely Ruby scripts, and so they just keep shipping this ancient. 386 00:20:45,210 --> 00:20:48,330 Ruby that they can never upgrade just to keep the os from breaking. 387 00:20:49,350 --> 00:20:50,489 That sounds, that sounds painful, 388 00:20:50,850 --> 00:20:56,969 but, uh, the, the upside there of system, Ruby finally being so old 389 00:20:56,969 --> 00:21:02,340 that it's extremely obvious you should not be using it, is that we 390 00:21:02,580 --> 00:21:07,409 basically expect you to need, you know, some kind of of installed 391 00:21:07,409 --> 00:21:13,139 Ruby, which we plan to provide in a very fast and easy to use package. 392 00:21:13,964 --> 00:21:17,504 This episode is sponsored by my own company, duck Bill. 393 00:21:17,774 --> 00:21:20,685 Having trouble with your AWS bill, perhaps 394 00:21:20,685 --> 00:21:23,444 it's time to renegotiate a contract with them. 395 00:21:23,745 --> 00:21:25,904 Maybe you're just wondering how to predict 396 00:21:25,904 --> 00:21:29,145 what's going on in the wide world of AWS. 397 00:21:29,205 --> 00:21:31,844 Well, that's where Duck Bill comes in to help. 398 00:21:32,054 --> 00:21:34,784 Remember, you can't duck the duck bill. 399 00:21:34,784 --> 00:21:37,455 Bill, which I am reliably informed by my 400 00:21:37,455 --> 00:21:40,995 business partner is absolutely not our motto. 401 00:21:41,304 --> 00:21:44,514 To learn more, visit doc bill hq.com. 402 00:21:45,645 --> 00:21:50,264 So a, a question I have because as you said, the Python community has coalesced 403 00:21:50,264 --> 00:21:54,045 around uv, which I think in many cases is part of the reason I'm starting 404 00:21:54,045 --> 00:21:58,094 to see it everywhere, is that it's amazing and people are embracing it. 405 00:21:58,275 --> 00:21:59,205 I understand it. 406 00:21:59,205 --> 00:22:02,835 It might not be fair to ask you about this less than 24 hours after 407 00:22:02,835 --> 00:22:07,485 the thing comes out, but how are you envisioning this uptake looking? 408 00:22:07,485 --> 00:22:09,735 It, it feels like it might be one of those problems where, and 409 00:22:09,735 --> 00:22:12,764 now all we need to do is have everyone embrace it simultaneously. 410 00:22:13,025 --> 00:22:15,545 It, it feels like that's, that's not realistic. 411 00:22:16,169 --> 00:22:18,480 That, that is definitely not realistic. 412 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:23,370 Uh, and and I, I, I have to admit, like we, we don't 413 00:22:23,370 --> 00:22:26,909 have VC funding like Astral the company behind uv. 414 00:22:27,210 --> 00:22:32,339 And so we are taking a slower and more methodical approach. 415 00:22:32,669 --> 00:22:37,290 We aren't shipping a thing that does everything kind of out of the gate, right? 416 00:22:37,350 --> 00:22:42,689 Like uv, by the time it had reached 0.3, basically did everything. 417 00:22:43,090 --> 00:22:45,880 And we are, are not that far along yet. 418 00:22:46,179 --> 00:22:51,250 Um, we are, you know, starting with this significant improvement that we thought 419 00:22:51,250 --> 00:22:54,699 that we could ship and, and we shipped it and it is a significant improvement. 420 00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:59,230 But I think to be able to do everything is definitely going to take more 421 00:22:59,230 --> 00:23:06,009 time and more development work and mostly the way to solve this problem of. 422 00:23:06,540 --> 00:23:08,489 Everyone needing it. 423 00:23:08,699 --> 00:23:12,029 We're, we're making sure that everyone doesn't need it, right? 424 00:23:12,270 --> 00:23:15,779 The, the initial version just happens to install 425 00:23:15,779 --> 00:23:18,870 Ruby in one second instead of 10 to 40 minutes. 426 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,935 And if you have the right version of Ruby and you want that one improvement. 427 00:23:24,645 --> 00:23:25,514 Knock yourself out. 428 00:23:25,694 --> 00:23:26,654 We, we offer that. 429 00:23:26,654 --> 00:23:27,165 It's great. 430 00:23:27,314 --> 00:23:31,304 Some people have said that they are using it and very excited about 431 00:23:31,304 --> 00:23:37,004 it in the last 24 hours, but it means that we can incrementally 432 00:23:37,034 --> 00:23:41,984 improve the other use cases that we have on the roadmap over time. 433 00:23:42,344 --> 00:23:44,790 And I, I don't feel like our goal. 434 00:23:45,554 --> 00:23:51,044 Is necessarily the same as uvs in the sense that we need to convince people 435 00:23:51,044 --> 00:23:56,384 to switch off of six or seven different competing tools towards our tool. 436 00:23:56,475 --> 00:24:03,254 The difference is just that we need to offer a better user experience 437 00:24:03,375 --> 00:24:09,074 than the, you know, two or three Ruby version managers that exist today. 438 00:24:09,105 --> 00:24:11,355 And once we've done that, hopefully people 439 00:24:11,355 --> 00:24:13,395 will feel motivated to use our tool instead. 440 00:24:14,250 --> 00:24:16,889 Yeah, I, I do have to ask, uh, ecosystem wide. 441 00:24:17,699 --> 00:24:19,739 It seems like Python is the darling these days. 442 00:24:19,739 --> 00:24:22,049 Part of that I think, comes from the fact that that has 443 00:24:22,139 --> 00:24:25,290 for a long time been the lingua franca of a lot of things. 444 00:24:25,469 --> 00:24:27,719 Uh, data science, machine learning. 445 00:24:28,049 --> 00:24:32,190 And given that with PyTorch and the rest and all of the other AI 446 00:24:32,190 --> 00:24:35,250 things, it seems like that is the defacto thing that people go for. 447 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,290 I always liked it because it's pseudo code. 448 00:24:37,290 --> 00:24:42,000 It feels very easy to read, easy to write badly, and it's the sort of 449 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,779 thing that there's always an import library for something that I need. 450 00:24:46,275 --> 00:24:49,304 I don't hear as much about Ruby in the modern era. 451 00:24:49,784 --> 00:24:50,085 Why? 452 00:24:51,030 --> 00:24:53,040 That's a very, it's a very good question, 453 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,110 and I think that there's a few aspects to it. 454 00:24:55,114 --> 00:24:56,250 It really is a great language. 455 00:24:56,250 --> 00:24:58,949 It is terrific at getting things out the door quickly. 456 00:24:58,949 --> 00:25:03,300 It is very approachable for folks who are not themselves software engineers. 457 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,060 It is, there's certainly, it's been around for about 458 00:25:06,060 --> 00:25:08,670 as long as Python has give or take since the nineties. 459 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,060 It's a, it is something that is you like, 460 00:25:12,060 --> 00:25:14,400 well, what can you possibly build with Ruby? 461 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,775 And the answer is, most websites you have heard of. 462 00:25:17,150 --> 00:25:20,750 That our giant companies now started off with Ruby. 463 00:25:21,199 --> 00:25:21,889 It's true. 464 00:25:21,980 --> 00:25:28,070 Um, and, and in fact, uh, unless, unless it's Twitter, most of those 465 00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:32,300 giant websites that you've heard of still have Ruby at their core today. 466 00:25:32,659 --> 00:25:37,190 The backend API for Figma, still Ruby GitHub's backend, 467 00:25:37,429 --> 00:25:41,090 front end, middle end still, Ruby, whatever, Stripe 468 00:25:41,090 --> 00:25:43,880 Square, Airbnb, like all those companies still have. 469 00:25:44,219 --> 00:25:49,469 A pile of ruby in the middle getting, you know, slowly built 470 00:25:49,469 --> 00:25:52,795 into an even bigger tower with lots of other things around it. 471 00:25:53,625 --> 00:25:55,935 Yeah, I, I never liked the argument, by the way 472 00:25:56,054 --> 00:25:57,855 of, well, yeah, okay, fine. 473 00:25:57,855 --> 00:26:02,205 Ruby's easy to get started with, but it's not gonna scale to hyperscale speeds. 474 00:26:02,205 --> 00:26:05,205 It's, do you have any idea how little of what you've actually 475 00:26:05,205 --> 00:26:09,734 built will do that regardless of who you are and what you're doing. 476 00:26:10,034 --> 00:26:13,094 Because if you look at anything that is hyperscale, it's been rewritten 477 00:26:13,094 --> 00:26:17,205 a bunch of times because what you need to do to launch versus what 478 00:26:17,205 --> 00:26:21,554 you need to do to grow to service, uh, millions of requests a second. 479 00:26:22,194 --> 00:26:26,274 Uh, more millions of users a second are very different things. 480 00:26:26,304 --> 00:26:29,439 It, it's an early optimization until you suddenly have to get there. 481 00:26:30,149 --> 00:26:31,830 I, I do sometimes. 482 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,580 One of, one of my favorite pet peeves, and this isn't even a Ruby specific 483 00:26:35,580 --> 00:26:41,699 thing, is watching companies talk about how they rewrote their system into a new 484 00:26:41,699 --> 00:26:47,520 language or a new stack so that they could support a hundred x more users and. 485 00:26:47,775 --> 00:26:49,964 Every time I've ever looked at one of those, I've been like, 486 00:26:49,964 --> 00:26:52,574 you could have just kept the same language in the same stack 487 00:26:52,574 --> 00:26:55,964 and rewritten it using the like architectural changes that 488 00:26:55,964 --> 00:26:59,955 you're describing to get the two orders of magnitude change. 489 00:27:00,134 --> 00:27:03,735 And nobody ever really seems to like acknowledge that part. 490 00:27:03,735 --> 00:27:05,924 It's always the new language and the new stack that 491 00:27:05,924 --> 00:27:08,444 really made it work for the a hundred x more users. 492 00:27:08,534 --> 00:27:11,955 There is a counterpoint that I will make, and I understand 493 00:27:11,955 --> 00:27:14,895 that this might not make me a popular man, but that's okay. 494 00:27:14,895 --> 00:27:16,755 That ship has sailed a very long time ago. 495 00:27:16,995 --> 00:27:17,355 Uh. 496 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:22,790 The, there is an argument to picking languages, not just on the basis 497 00:27:22,790 --> 00:27:25,580 of technical capability, because let's face it, you can, with most 498 00:27:25,580 --> 00:27:29,989 programming languages, the read as all of them, if you squeeze it hard 499 00:27:29,989 --> 00:27:33,080 enough, you can make blood come out of them to do the thing that you need. 500 00:27:33,409 --> 00:27:33,440 Uh. 501 00:27:33,795 --> 00:27:37,455 It's very often a recruiting story of what language 502 00:27:37,455 --> 00:27:40,815 do the engineers you hire, know what language do those 503 00:27:40,815 --> 00:27:43,514 engineers you're attempting to recruit, want to work in? 504 00:27:43,725 --> 00:27:47,114 And there is a perception that Ruby's Star has faded 505 00:27:47,114 --> 00:27:49,514 somewhat, and I don't necessarily think that that's fair. 506 00:27:50,145 --> 00:27:50,505 Yeah. 507 00:27:50,505 --> 00:27:54,404 I mean, I, I think that from the perspective of. 508 00:27:54,929 --> 00:28:01,800 People who just want to work with the new hotness that, uh, Ruby is no longer 509 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:06,989 the like, you know, star new hotness child, which I, I think it was for a while. 510 00:28:07,469 --> 00:28:08,940 Um, I guess I have. 511 00:28:09,674 --> 00:28:16,875 A, a small advantage personally in that I got into Ruby before Rails or any 512 00:28:16,875 --> 00:28:22,274 of the reasons to get into Ruby as a new hotness, commercial success existed 513 00:28:22,274 --> 00:28:26,174 yet, not, not very long before, but just enough where I was like, I love 514 00:28:26,174 --> 00:28:29,279 this language because of the language itself, and then turned around and 515 00:28:29,324 --> 00:28:32,024 I was like, oh, there's all this stuff where people will pay me to use it. 516 00:28:32,024 --> 00:28:32,804 That's very cool. 517 00:28:32,924 --> 00:28:34,335 Oh, there's a business model too. 518 00:28:34,335 --> 00:28:34,754 Wow. 519 00:28:34,754 --> 00:28:35,565 Imagine that. 520 00:28:35,685 --> 00:28:37,004 Yeah, absolutely. 521 00:28:37,364 --> 00:28:39,344 Uh, but it's, but it's also meant. 522 00:28:39,779 --> 00:28:43,534 That because my motivations for getting into it in the first place, were not. 523 00:28:44,205 --> 00:28:48,254 The new hotness motivations as it has been less of the new hotness. 524 00:28:48,254 --> 00:28:51,344 My motivations have basically stayed the same, and it is 525 00:28:51,344 --> 00:28:56,295 the language that feels the best for me personally to write. 526 00:28:56,924 --> 00:28:59,565 Uh, like, I don't know, it matches my brain 527 00:28:59,685 --> 00:29:01,875 more successfully than any other language. 528 00:29:02,225 --> 00:29:07,024 But as, as you were pointing out, uh, not all of us are Shopify 529 00:29:07,024 --> 00:29:10,685 with an entire legion of, you know, rust developers writing 530 00:29:10,685 --> 00:29:15,455 a ji to, uh, squeeze the blood from the stone to get, uh, 531 00:29:15,484 --> 00:29:20,134 millions of, of requests a second out of our Ruby web processes. 532 00:29:20,614 --> 00:29:21,185 And, uh. 533 00:29:21,735 --> 00:29:26,085 And to, you know, I, I gotta admit, RV is also not written 534 00:29:26,085 --> 00:29:29,295 in Ruby because we want it to be really, really fast. 535 00:29:29,295 --> 00:29:30,404 It's written in rust. 536 00:29:30,824 --> 00:29:35,384 And that is part of the, the thing that you were describing there, right? 537 00:29:35,384 --> 00:29:37,165 Like there are some languages that are. 538 00:29:37,964 --> 00:29:41,355 Constitutionally better suited to some specific use cases. 539 00:29:41,654 --> 00:29:44,024 I'm definitely not planning on quickly 540 00:29:44,024 --> 00:29:47,054 writing a new web app in Rust anytime soon. 541 00:29:47,444 --> 00:29:48,194 But if I'm writing, uh, 542 00:29:50,264 --> 00:29:54,435 if I'm writing a CLI tool that I want to execute really quickly, 543 00:29:54,734 --> 00:29:58,549 uh, I think, I think that Rust is actually a, a great fit there and, 544 00:29:59,170 --> 00:30:03,045 and actually some of the motivation, you know, for, for many years. 545 00:30:03,554 --> 00:30:09,344 We stuck, we put a lot of effort into making Ruby Gems and Bundler 546 00:30:09,344 --> 00:30:12,975 be written fully in Ruby, partly for deployment reasons where we 547 00:30:12,975 --> 00:30:15,705 just wanted it to work on, you know, if you have a Ruby interpreter, 548 00:30:15,915 --> 00:30:18,884 this is just pure Ruby code that any Ruby interpreter can run. 549 00:30:19,275 --> 00:30:24,435 But for the other reason of thinking that it would be easier to get 550 00:30:24,435 --> 00:30:29,235 contributors if you know the Ruby tool was written completely in Ruby. 551 00:30:30,315 --> 00:30:36,884 And I, I am unfortunately, unfortunately, after 10 years, I have to 552 00:30:36,884 --> 00:30:42,254 report back that that is not actually a viable strategy because it, 553 00:30:42,315 --> 00:30:48,420 it turns out if you are writing the dependency manager, you can. 554 00:30:49,109 --> 00:30:54,359 Use all of those dependencies, at least not in the same easy, 555 00:30:54,359 --> 00:30:58,020 straightforward way that all normal Ruby developers use them. 556 00:30:58,049 --> 00:30:58,409 Right? 557 00:30:58,409 --> 00:31:00,344 Like what's a normal Ruby developer? 558 00:31:01,125 --> 00:31:04,154 Uh, somebody, somebody, there aren't any. 559 00:31:04,544 --> 00:31:09,705 Um, but, uh, if you're working on an app and you have a GEM file 560 00:31:09,824 --> 00:31:12,554 and you want to do something new, you can say, oh, I know that 561 00:31:12,554 --> 00:31:14,895 there's a gem that does this for me, so I will add it to the 562 00:31:14,895 --> 00:31:17,475 GEM file and then I will solve the problem using the library. 563 00:31:17,895 --> 00:31:21,734 And if you are working on Bundler, you absolutely cannot do that. 564 00:31:22,125 --> 00:31:23,594 And so it turns out. 565 00:31:24,179 --> 00:31:28,590 That the subset of Ruby that we write, bundler and Ruby Gems 566 00:31:28,620 --> 00:31:33,750 in has continued to get more contorted and weirder and have 567 00:31:33,750 --> 00:31:37,199 more and more workarounds for the fact that we can't use any 568 00:31:37,199 --> 00:31:41,610 of the popular libraries that solve these problems in Ruby. 569 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,000 And so it, it turns out that today, effectively, bundler and 570 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:50,564 Ruby Gems are written in a. Interesting dialectic cousin of Ruby 571 00:31:50,564 --> 00:31:54,165 that does not overlap with the ruby that all of the other Ruby 572 00:31:54,165 --> 00:31:57,375 developers in the world are using every day in their applications. 573 00:31:57,495 --> 00:32:00,314 And that makes it a lot harder to get contributors. 574 00:32:00,554 --> 00:32:03,044 Um, because you know, the contributors show up and they say, oh, 575 00:32:03,044 --> 00:32:06,014 just solve this the same way I would my every day application. 576 00:32:06,014 --> 00:32:07,770 And then we have to say, sorry, we can't take your pr. 577 00:32:08,984 --> 00:32:09,105 Yeah. 578 00:32:09,105 --> 00:32:11,114 So I, I do wanna get into this as our last topic. 579 00:32:11,114 --> 00:32:14,025 You are the CEO at the Spinel Cooperative. 580 00:32:14,085 --> 00:32:17,355 Uh, you can visit that at spinel, S-P-I-N-E l.coop, 581 00:32:17,685 --> 00:32:21,884 uh, which it is a community nonprofit, which I read. 582 00:32:21,884 --> 00:32:27,645 Given your open source bonafides as you don't particularly like money, uh, how 583 00:32:27,705 --> 00:32:31,335 do you get people to support this financially from an open source perspective? 584 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:32,550 Totally. 585 00:32:32,550 --> 00:32:38,190 So, so this, this cooperative is basically the latest step 586 00:32:38,190 --> 00:32:42,780 in my attempts to figure out how to balance, uh, sort of like 587 00:32:43,110 --> 00:32:47,429 community benefit and being as inclusive as possible to people 588 00:32:47,429 --> 00:32:51,360 who may not have money but are interested in participating, 589 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,670 while also balancing it with that pesky food addiction. 590 00:32:53,670 --> 00:32:55,050 You have, you have to eat 591 00:32:55,050 --> 00:32:56,185 every day as it turns out. 592 00:32:56,835 --> 00:33:00,315 It's the, it's the food and housing addiction that it 593 00:33:00,315 --> 00:33:03,375 has actually pushed me in the direction of this co-op. 594 00:33:03,824 --> 00:33:07,395 I guess to provide a little bit of background for your listeners, about 10 595 00:33:07,395 --> 00:33:15,585 years ago, I started an, an actual bonafide IRS approved 5 0 1 C six nonprofit. 596 00:33:15,614 --> 00:33:21,074 It was called Ruby Together, and we ultimately, 597 00:33:21,074 --> 00:33:24,614 the, the mission of the nonprofit was. 598 00:33:25,004 --> 00:33:28,154 To figure out funding for kind of like the 599 00:33:28,154 --> 00:33:30,404 Ruby package management ecosystem, right? 600 00:33:30,404 --> 00:33:32,294 Butler, Ruby Gems, all that good stuff. 601 00:33:32,924 --> 00:33:33,404 I just learned. 602 00:33:33,404 --> 00:33:36,585 A 5 0 1 C six is things like business leagues, chambers of 603 00:33:36,585 --> 00:33:39,375 Commerce, real estate boards, boards of trades, and apparently 604 00:33:39,375 --> 00:33:42,134 professional football leagues, which I'm guessing it's not that one. 605 00:33:42,824 --> 00:33:44,234 It is, it is not that one. 606 00:33:44,234 --> 00:33:49,665 Although the NHL and some comic cons are very interesting 607 00:33:49,665 --> 00:33:52,605 examples of 5 0 1 C six s, they're trade associations. 608 00:33:52,964 --> 00:33:58,725 The NHL, the NFL is no longer a, not one of those after being 609 00:33:58,725 --> 00:34:01,304 basically dragged for that every year for, you know, 30. 610 00:34:01,949 --> 00:34:02,429 Yes. 611 00:34:02,459 --> 00:34:02,939 Yes. 612 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:04,350 Uh, exactly. 613 00:34:04,859 --> 00:34:08,969 Um, and so the, the experience that I had with that type 614 00:34:08,969 --> 00:34:14,909 of nonprofit was that in 2015 when, uh, when corporations. 615 00:34:15,645 --> 00:34:19,094 Basically had money for free, you know, 616 00:34:19,155 --> 00:34:21,885 uh, 0% interest rate, et cetera, et cetera. 617 00:34:22,185 --> 00:34:24,945 Uh, you could actually just go to a company and say, Hey, 618 00:34:24,945 --> 00:34:27,435 I'm running a nonprofit that makes stuff that you use. 619 00:34:27,435 --> 00:34:28,065 That's good. 620 00:34:28,335 --> 00:34:29,534 Will you give me some money? 621 00:34:29,715 --> 00:34:31,304 And the companies were like, yeah, sure. 622 00:34:31,304 --> 00:34:31,815 Money's free. 623 00:34:31,815 --> 00:34:32,475 Here's some money. 624 00:34:32,475 --> 00:34:32,565 And. 625 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:39,509 Around 2018 when money structurally stopped being free, uh, I 626 00:34:39,509 --> 00:34:41,850 suddenly had a very different conversation with all of those 627 00:34:41,850 --> 00:34:44,219 same companies where I said, Hey, will you give me some money? 628 00:34:44,219 --> 00:34:47,190 And they said, wait, so you're saying we could give you some money 629 00:34:47,489 --> 00:34:51,449 or we could not give you some money, and you would keep doing 630 00:34:51,449 --> 00:34:54,870 the same thing, and we would keep getting to use the same thing. 631 00:34:56,385 --> 00:34:58,875 And I would say yes. 632 00:34:58,875 --> 00:35:00,825 And they would say, great, thanks for stopping by. 633 00:35:00,825 --> 00:35:03,255 We'll take that option where we don't get dirty, but we'll 634 00:35:03,255 --> 00:35:05,685 say bad things about you over the drinks we can't afford. 635 00:35:07,845 --> 00:35:08,685 Exactly. 636 00:35:09,045 --> 00:35:14,925 Uh, and so ultimately I wasn't able to crack the nut of a 637 00:35:14,925 --> 00:35:20,805 nonprofit that is able to, you know, pull in enough money to. 638 00:35:21,825 --> 00:35:23,175 Feed my food addiction. 639 00:35:23,595 --> 00:35:28,245 And so this, this structure in, in the meantime, while I was figuring 640 00:35:28,245 --> 00:35:32,745 this out and while I was concluding that it wasn't gonna work for 641 00:35:32,745 --> 00:35:38,415 my day job, uh, a an an example popped up, uh, there is, there 642 00:35:38,415 --> 00:35:43,275 is another open source maintainers collective called the Geomi. 643 00:35:43,575 --> 00:35:48,165 Uh, started by, uh, Philippo Valora for the Go community. 644 00:35:48,555 --> 00:35:54,045 Um, and, uh, Filippo maintains the Go Cryptography libraries and various 645 00:35:54,045 --> 00:35:58,575 other useful and important tools that ship with the Go Standard Library. 646 00:35:58,875 --> 00:36:03,105 And, uh, he, he started a collective where what they do is 647 00:36:03,105 --> 00:36:06,615 they make open source that is useful to people critically. 648 00:36:06,705 --> 00:36:11,174 One, they are not a nonprofit, and two, they make money by 649 00:36:11,174 --> 00:36:15,285 offering goods and services to corporations in exchange for money. 650 00:36:15,475 --> 00:36:16,705 What an amazing model. 651 00:36:17,095 --> 00:36:18,024 I know, right? 652 00:36:18,325 --> 00:36:24,529 And so the, the primary thing that they do is they offer retainers where they. 653 00:36:25,605 --> 00:36:29,355 Happen to employ several of the, you know, world-class 654 00:36:29,355 --> 00:36:33,495 experts in their respective open source packages. 655 00:36:33,735 --> 00:36:36,765 And there are companies in the world that use those open source 656 00:36:36,765 --> 00:36:40,935 packages to build their business, and that makes it valuable 657 00:36:40,935 --> 00:36:44,385 and worthwhile for those companies to have that world-class 658 00:36:44,385 --> 00:36:48,105 expertise on tap to answer questions, solve problems. 659 00:36:48,145 --> 00:36:49,915 You know, resolve things that come up. 660 00:36:50,365 --> 00:36:56,695 So that is, you know, kind of like the initial model that we are taking 661 00:36:56,695 --> 00:37:03,475 for spinel, we, we would be actually pretty jazzed to succeed as a Geomi 662 00:37:03,475 --> 00:37:09,145 style, you know, collective, where people, you know, have companies that 663 00:37:09,295 --> 00:37:15,175 need to solve problems related to Ruby, Ruby Gems, bundler Rails, uh. 664 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:20,430 Uh, not just Rails, but also, you know, stimulus, Hotwire, 665 00:37:20,430 --> 00:37:25,080 Hotwire native, all of these tools that companies are 666 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,740 using to build really successful, profitable businesses. 667 00:37:29,100 --> 00:37:33,810 Uh, our co-op has at least one person who was either been 668 00:37:33,810 --> 00:37:37,740 on the core team of all of those things, or actually, 669 00:37:37,740 --> 00:37:39,840 you know, created those things in the first place. 670 00:37:40,095 --> 00:37:45,675 And so we have the expertise that can solve those problems and answer 671 00:37:45,675 --> 00:37:49,305 those questions and help those companies, you know, get out of those 672 00:37:49,545 --> 00:37:54,255 gnarly situations in dramatically less time than they would otherwise. 673 00:37:54,525 --> 00:37:59,025 And so we're hopeful that rather than rely on the nonprofit 674 00:37:59,025 --> 00:38:02,115 situation where we say, Hey, would you, you know, throw some 675 00:38:02,115 --> 00:38:06,465 money at us, we can say, Hey, would you be interested in. 676 00:38:06,900 --> 00:38:11,759 Saving yourself a bunch of money by paying us to solve your problems so that 677 00:38:11,759 --> 00:38:15,390 your actual engineers can build your actual product that makes you actual money. 678 00:38:16,020 --> 00:38:17,130 I like that quite a bit. 679 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,990 The idea of being able to, you know, do things the smart way. 680 00:38:22,205 --> 00:38:25,860 It, it taking money from people who have it and wanna support what you're doing. 681 00:38:25,950 --> 00:38:27,090 Seems like a good model. 682 00:38:27,540 --> 00:38:27,810 Yeah. 683 00:38:28,110 --> 00:38:32,310 Uh, I'm, I'm very hopeful that, uh, that it will appeal. 684 00:38:33,165 --> 00:38:36,555 And, and our initial conversations with a bunch of people have been pretty 685 00:38:36,555 --> 00:38:43,635 positive, so we'll see how it goes, but ultimately the idea is, is definitely 686 00:38:43,965 --> 00:38:49,425 to sort of combine the tooling that I have always wished existed with. 687 00:38:50,385 --> 00:38:54,195 Expertise that actually saves companies money and appeals 688 00:38:54,195 --> 00:38:58,245 to them while making sure that we have funding to, as 689 00:38:58,245 --> 00:39:02,865 you said, uh, feed our ongoing and SRT food addictions. 690 00:39:03,405 --> 00:39:03,885 Exactly. 691 00:39:04,190 --> 00:39:07,725 I, I wish you well with this, and I definitely want to hear from you, 692 00:39:07,755 --> 00:39:11,655 feedback from you in a few months on how the adoption of RV is gone. 693 00:39:11,655 --> 00:39:15,555 I, if people want to keep a little bit more of a real time finger on the 694 00:39:15,555 --> 00:39:18,285 pulse, where's the best time, where's the best place for them to find you? 695 00:39:19,515 --> 00:39:22,845 Uh, I spend the most amount of time these days 696 00:39:22,845 --> 00:39:26,295 on Blue Sky, where my handle is indirect.io. 697 00:39:26,715 --> 00:39:31,245 Uh, I can also, you know, if you, if, if you need me, 698 00:39:31,305 --> 00:39:35,925 uh, my, my homepage@arco.net contains links to all of my 699 00:39:35,925 --> 00:39:41,265 various profiles on GitHub, Instagram, mask it on, uh, 700 00:39:41,355 --> 00:39:45,225 LinkedIn, you know, take your, pick your poison, but, uh. 701 00:39:45,555 --> 00:39:48,615 Yeah, any, any and all of those ways, uh, would be a great 702 00:39:48,615 --> 00:39:52,605 way to reach out if you're interested in providing feedback 703 00:39:52,634 --> 00:39:57,194 or, uh, hitting us up at Spinel about our expertise. 704 00:39:57,765 --> 00:39:59,924 And we will of course put links to that in the show notes. 705 00:40:00,105 --> 00:40:02,265 Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. 706 00:40:02,265 --> 00:40:02,654 I appreciate it. 707 00:40:03,435 --> 00:40:04,395 Yeah, absolutely. 708 00:40:04,395 --> 00:40:07,515 It's great as always to have a conversation with you, Corey. 709 00:40:08,294 --> 00:40:11,564 Andre Arco, CEO at Spinel Cooperative. 710 00:40:11,615 --> 00:40:13,634 I'm Cloud economist Corey Quinn, and this is 711 00:40:13,634 --> 00:40:14,595 Screaming In the Cloud. 712 00:40:14,774 --> 00:40:16,935 If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five 713 00:40:16,935 --> 00:40:19,365 star review on your podcast platform of choice. 714 00:40:19,395 --> 00:40:22,245 Whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five star 715 00:40:22,245 --> 00:40:25,694 review on your podcast platform of choice along with a comment. 716 00:40:25,694 --> 00:40:26,805 But let's be serious. 717 00:40:26,805 --> 00:40:28,575 You're not gonna have time to write that comment 718 00:40:28,575 --> 00:40:30,645 'cause you're still fixing dependency problems.