1 00:00:00,703 --> 00:00:04,713 Hello again, everyone, and welcome back to the accelerator with Michael Koneff. 2 00:00:04,713 --> 00:00:05,313 That's me. 3 00:00:05,313 --> 00:00:06,243 I'll be your host. 4 00:00:06,243 --> 00:00:11,203 We're a podcast aimed at the startup community, founders, accelerators, 5 00:00:11,203 --> 00:00:15,533 incubators, and the like, and even some of the money people who follow those kind of 6 00:00:15,533 --> 00:00:17,983 things and hope to profit from them. 7 00:00:17,983 --> 00:00:22,963 We are on all the major platforms, especially make sure to subscribe to 8 00:00:22,963 --> 00:00:28,845 Substack, the accelerator .substack .com. 9 00:00:28,889 --> 00:00:31,499 About 8 ,000 people get it that way. 10 00:00:31,499 --> 00:00:36,199 Also, we're on all the major platforms, YouTube and Spotify for audio and video, 11 00:00:36,199 --> 00:00:40,959 and also on Audible, Amazon, Apple, and many other podcast platforms. 12 00:00:40,959 --> 00:00:45,479 Today, we're joined by a true serial entrepreneur. 13 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,299 His name is Jeremy Luceris. 14 00:00:48,439 --> 00:00:52,109 He is an eight -time founder with eight exits. 15 00:00:52,109 --> 00:00:54,539 Now, that's pretty good. 16 00:00:55,259 --> 00:00:56,979 Most all of them successful. 17 00:00:56,979 --> 00:00:57,809 So welcome, Jeremy. 18 00:00:57,809 --> 00:00:59,063 Great to have you. 19 00:00:59,258 --> 00:01:01,343 Great to be on, great to hang out with you today. 20 00:01:01,343 --> 00:01:07,503 yeah, it's, you're the perfect guest for this show, for this podcast, because you 21 00:01:07,503 --> 00:01:10,423 are gonna tell us how it's done. 22 00:01:10,643 --> 00:01:16,623 And I can't tell you, no pressure, how many times, you know, people come on and, 23 00:01:16,623 --> 00:01:20,483 you know, maybe it's gonna work, maybe it's not. 24 00:01:20,723 --> 00:01:25,643 So, you have had a lot of companies work. 25 00:01:25,643 --> 00:01:29,089 Your current company is called Payment Brokers. 26 00:01:29,191 --> 00:01:30,321 Why don't we start there? 27 00:01:30,321 --> 00:01:35,451 Tell us about what that is and then tell us why you think that will work and 28 00:01:35,451 --> 00:01:39,319 whether there's maybe even a major pivot in there sometime soon. 29 00:01:39,738 --> 00:01:44,998 Yeah, so first I want to address the eight exit thing because I think it's important 30 00:01:44,998 --> 00:01:48,738 as much as I hear eight exits that sounds really glamorous. 31 00:01:48,738 --> 00:01:53,388 It's not, you know, these weren't all these weren't always, you know, successful 32 00:01:53,388 --> 00:01:54,038 exits. 33 00:01:54,038 --> 00:01:58,458 Some of them were, you know, painful exits because I didn't have a choice. 34 00:01:58,458 --> 00:02:02,618 So it's funny because it's like every time I talk to me like, wow, how do you do 35 00:02:02,618 --> 00:02:02,708 that? 36 00:02:02,708 --> 00:02:06,538 I was like through pain and suffering a lot like it wasn't always like these 37 00:02:06,538 --> 00:02:08,863 amazing, beautiful exits. 38 00:02:08,863 --> 00:02:12,830 Which came first, a successful one or did you start unsuccessfully? 39 00:02:12,830 --> 00:02:13,610 You know what? 40 00:02:13,610 --> 00:02:18,640 Luckily I had a good successful exit first, so I modeled things after that in 41 00:02:18,640 --> 00:02:19,249 the future. 42 00:02:19,249 --> 00:02:20,499 one? 43 00:02:20,579 --> 00:02:22,362 What kind of company was that? 44 00:02:22,362 --> 00:02:27,212 It was an online furniture retailer called furniturestock .com that was years and 45 00:02:27,212 --> 00:02:28,262 years ago. 46 00:02:28,262 --> 00:02:33,912 And it was successful, but also a horrible failure on my part because the company was 47 00:02:33,912 --> 00:02:37,962 just falling apart because I didn't know how to operate a retail environment. 48 00:02:37,962 --> 00:02:42,392 First, I had living in an apartment with garages full of returned furniture that I 49 00:02:42,392 --> 00:02:43,802 didn't understand how to manage. 50 00:02:43,802 --> 00:02:48,342 And so I ended up with a bunch of inventory and friends of mine on weekends 51 00:02:48,342 --> 00:02:49,575 moving furniture. 52 00:02:49,575 --> 00:02:51,450 You had a lot of good furniture. 53 00:02:51,450 --> 00:02:55,290 I did, you know, after that it was a, every time we moved from that point 54 00:02:55,290 --> 00:02:58,610 forward, I knew that the furniture business well enough to always have really 55 00:02:58,610 --> 00:02:59,895 nice furniture in my house. 56 00:02:59,895 --> 00:03:02,705 hear this expression of victim of your own success. 57 00:03:02,705 --> 00:03:08,311 Was that a case where it was working but you couldn't keep up with it? 58 00:03:09,210 --> 00:03:10,550 Yes and no. 59 00:03:10,850 --> 00:03:15,370 I honestly got into it because someone said I could buy wholesale furniture. 60 00:03:15,370 --> 00:03:17,409 And I thought, well, this is a good strategy. 61 00:03:17,409 --> 00:03:19,210 Like how much is wholesale? 62 00:03:19,210 --> 00:03:20,010 What does that mean? 63 00:03:20,010 --> 00:03:25,579 I didn't even know really the terminology back then of where in the supply chain 64 00:03:25,579 --> 00:03:26,310 this fell. 65 00:03:26,310 --> 00:03:31,350 And when I went to the manufacturing plant, I was like, wait, I can buy leather 66 00:03:31,350 --> 00:03:34,890 furniture, a whole set for $500. 67 00:03:35,170 --> 00:03:38,010 And what I looked at the market at the time, 68 00:03:38,010 --> 00:03:40,430 I just said, well, no one's selling this online. 69 00:03:40,430 --> 00:03:44,450 There were really no online furniture retailers back in 2003. 70 00:03:44,770 --> 00:03:50,720 And so I built, yeah, I built a platform to slowly start selling this. 71 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:55,870 And I had Burt Force taken, you know, scanning and photos of their book to put 72 00:03:55,870 --> 00:03:59,610 it on a landing page with, you know, PayPal checkout. 73 00:03:59,610 --> 00:04:03,790 I mean, it was very, very rudimentary what I did. 74 00:04:03,790 --> 00:04:08,278 And I started getting orders because I had no overhead and I could sell this. 75 00:04:08,354 --> 00:04:10,794 you know, at 30 points and make a ton of money. 76 00:04:10,794 --> 00:04:15,134 What I didn't really account for was having space because what would end up 77 00:04:15,134 --> 00:04:19,954 happening later is quality issues and I would deliver something on a weekend. 78 00:04:19,954 --> 00:04:23,514 My friend would get in a truck with me, rent a rider truck and put him in the back 79 00:04:23,514 --> 00:04:25,774 of a rider truck and go deliver them ourselves. 80 00:04:25,774 --> 00:04:32,884 And so that started to weigh on me because as the expense of that went up and I got 81 00:04:32,884 --> 00:04:34,954 returns, I'm like, I don't have a warehouse. 82 00:04:34,954 --> 00:04:36,282 I lived in an apartment. 83 00:04:36,282 --> 00:04:40,422 So I would rent a garage from our apartment complex and it started stacking 84 00:04:40,422 --> 00:04:43,402 up and I was like, wait a second, I'm not moving this stuff. 85 00:04:43,402 --> 00:04:45,142 There's a cost to carry. 86 00:04:45,162 --> 00:04:49,682 So that starts really, you learn it through trial and error really. 87 00:04:49,742 --> 00:04:54,002 Back then, I did, it was like a micro sale. 88 00:04:54,002 --> 00:04:59,112 There was a gentleman that was really interested in the industry and he 89 00:04:59,112 --> 00:05:02,322 purchased it and failed horribly along the way. 90 00:05:02,322 --> 00:05:05,688 And I ended up taking a ride with him because there was, 91 00:05:05,688 --> 00:05:07,278 you know, an earn out on that side of it. 92 00:05:07,278 --> 00:05:10,988 So I thought, okay, he's going to invest and do all these certain things. 93 00:05:10,988 --> 00:05:14,238 I didn't know what covenants were back then. 94 00:05:14,238 --> 00:05:19,578 So I think I learned back then, and you had asked a question about why payment 95 00:05:19,578 --> 00:05:24,178 brokers and why now back then I was so. 96 00:05:24,418 --> 00:05:29,308 Profit focused, I was so revenue driven and money hungry. 97 00:05:29,308 --> 00:05:33,904 I was in a survivalist mentality of grow to make money. 98 00:05:33,978 --> 00:05:37,958 and I had absolutely no focus on purpose or value. 99 00:05:37,958 --> 00:05:41,938 It was just, I identified a gap that could make money and I was gonna throw 100 00:05:41,938 --> 00:05:43,958 everything at making money. 101 00:05:43,958 --> 00:05:50,748 I didn't care about quality or value or reliability or performance, it was just 102 00:05:50,748 --> 00:05:52,178 purely profit. 103 00:05:52,978 --> 00:06:01,182 So, as I, well as I grew up and had some of these other exits, 104 00:06:01,786 --> 00:06:07,226 I found myself in these loveless relationships with the entities I had 105 00:06:07,226 --> 00:06:08,046 built. 106 00:06:08,066 --> 00:06:12,776 I had built something that had absolutely no value or meaning or purpose to me and I 107 00:06:12,776 --> 00:06:13,986 didn't want to be involved. 108 00:06:13,986 --> 00:06:18,336 Hence, 20 companies that I started and failed, eight of which were exits. 109 00:06:18,336 --> 00:06:20,366 I mean, I'm sure there were more than 20. 110 00:06:20,366 --> 00:06:23,986 My wife and maybe my business partners would say, I have ideas. 111 00:06:23,986 --> 00:06:25,696 I call them entrepreneurial seizures. 112 00:06:25,696 --> 00:06:28,446 I'm like, oh my God, I have to do this. 113 00:06:28,466 --> 00:06:31,046 And it's a disease. 114 00:06:31,046 --> 00:06:31,427 Yeah. 115 00:06:31,427 --> 00:06:32,727 it's a disease. 116 00:06:32,727 --> 00:06:33,607 Yeah. 117 00:06:34,087 --> 00:06:34,914 No question. 118 00:06:34,914 --> 00:06:36,794 entrepreneur, but the passion wasn't there. 119 00:06:36,794 --> 00:06:42,144 I wasn't passionate about the idea and I didn't have a specific skill set out of 120 00:06:42,144 --> 00:06:43,384 technology at the time. 121 00:06:43,384 --> 00:06:47,014 I was learning how to code and develop and build things. 122 00:06:47,394 --> 00:06:55,294 So it was like no talent, no technology, no passion, pure profit focus. 123 00:06:55,294 --> 00:07:00,782 Those aren't really healthy long -term, at least for me, builds. 124 00:07:00,954 --> 00:07:10,374 As I got more experience, I found myself more trying to align my lifestyle and what 125 00:07:10,374 --> 00:07:17,314 I want to do, what I have passion about, and there's a mission behind, and new 126 00:07:17,314 --> 00:07:22,944 skill sets I have now, which makes it a very low lift, something I enjoy, and all 127 00:07:22,944 --> 00:07:24,694 of the hurdles disappear. 128 00:07:24,994 --> 00:07:27,407 So payment brokers was one of those things. 129 00:07:27,407 --> 00:07:32,021 yeah, how does payment brokers fit that model? 130 00:07:32,186 --> 00:07:35,126 So I was in the payment space. 131 00:07:35,206 --> 00:07:40,766 I'll say I don't really advocate for it because I just think it's somewhat 132 00:07:40,766 --> 00:07:48,806 predatory in the way that the rates and fees are aligned to the processor. 133 00:07:48,886 --> 00:07:50,706 And everybody's focused on interchange. 134 00:07:50,706 --> 00:07:53,776 There was actually a big article that came out yesterday, I wrote a huge article 135 00:07:53,776 --> 00:07:54,766 about this. 136 00:07:54,766 --> 00:07:56,496 Everybody's targeting Visa MasterCard. 137 00:07:56,496 --> 00:07:57,586 That's not the problem. 138 00:07:57,586 --> 00:08:00,186 The problem is above Visa MasterCard. 139 00:08:00,186 --> 00:08:01,586 and that is at the processor level. 140 00:08:01,586 --> 00:08:07,636 Now they deliver value, but I've seen them take advantage of companies, one of which 141 00:08:07,636 --> 00:08:11,406 was me early on, which is why I even got into the business to begin with. 142 00:08:11,406 --> 00:08:14,426 I had an e -commerce company later on, obvious steps. 143 00:08:14,426 --> 00:08:17,466 You build an e -commerce company, now you wanna build other people's e -commerce 144 00:08:17,466 --> 00:08:18,266 companies. 145 00:08:18,266 --> 00:08:22,706 And it was just a value item, like, hey, we can monetize that part of the 146 00:08:22,706 --> 00:08:26,076 transaction, let's do it, let's become a reseller for a processor. 147 00:08:26,076 --> 00:08:28,178 And then when I saw how they... 148 00:08:29,262 --> 00:08:35,762 reduced free market competition and became very sticky in the way that they operated. 149 00:08:35,762 --> 00:08:40,452 And the second they got you in a POS system or in a software or tied into their 150 00:08:40,452 --> 00:08:45,361 e -commerce platform, they would, I jokingly call it, Bip you up. 151 00:08:45,361 --> 00:08:49,082 They'd put a basis point here and three there and one cent there and five cents 152 00:08:49,082 --> 00:08:50,822 there and $6 a month here. 153 00:08:50,822 --> 00:08:58,202 And by the end of the cycle, you're paying five or 6 % to, I hate to say, 154 00:08:58,202 --> 00:09:01,802 a commodity of transferring money from one account to the other. 155 00:09:01,822 --> 00:09:03,272 There are things that they've done. 156 00:09:03,272 --> 00:09:04,102 I love it, man. 157 00:09:04,102 --> 00:09:05,432 I can tap my phone and pay. 158 00:09:05,432 --> 00:09:11,802 They've made these really seamless, very secure, frictionless ways to pay. 159 00:09:11,802 --> 00:09:12,562 That's great. 160 00:09:12,562 --> 00:09:15,162 I love that about payments. 161 00:09:15,202 --> 00:09:16,622 But at what cost? 162 00:09:16,622 --> 00:09:21,142 So when I started advocating for small business, which is what I've done now, 163 00:09:21,142 --> 00:09:24,782 right, after some exits, you want to help people. 164 00:09:25,282 --> 00:09:27,448 So I changed from this. 165 00:09:27,738 --> 00:09:33,178 profit -focused mentality to what can I have purpose and help people with? 166 00:09:33,178 --> 00:09:37,738 And this is probably the first company that's just pure cost reduction. 167 00:09:37,778 --> 00:09:41,438 So I'm using, my commercial guys will kill me. 168 00:09:41,438 --> 00:09:42,618 I'm not using AI. 169 00:09:42,618 --> 00:09:44,197 We call it AI cost reduction. 170 00:09:44,197 --> 00:09:46,438 It's a really buzz -worthy thing. 171 00:09:46,438 --> 00:09:47,778 It's really machine learning. 172 00:09:47,778 --> 00:09:53,888 We use OCR, we read the statements, we basically use optical character 173 00:09:53,888 --> 00:09:56,420 recognition, we read the very detailed. 174 00:09:56,420 --> 00:10:00,519 thousand page statements that have all the detailed transactions, we're able to 175 00:10:00,519 --> 00:10:05,100 categorize and use proprietary data to identify what's negotiable, how much 176 00:10:05,100 --> 00:10:09,860 profit is that processor making, and we use that data and we've hired an amazing 177 00:10:09,860 --> 00:10:13,760 team of people because I'm all about people powered technology, I'm not about 178 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:15,390 technology on its own. 179 00:10:15,390 --> 00:10:22,110 And so we have people power to then call on behalf of that merchant and give them a 180 00:10:22,110 --> 00:10:24,922 leg up to negotiate using. 181 00:10:24,922 --> 00:10:27,102 data -driven information. 182 00:10:27,202 --> 00:10:31,912 And without having machine learning, you can't do this at a high frequency and 183 00:10:31,912 --> 00:10:33,482 monitor it on an ongoing basis. 184 00:10:33,482 --> 00:10:37,882 So the challenge in the industry is that Visa, MasterCard, American Express change 185 00:10:37,882 --> 00:10:39,222 their rates and fees all the time. 186 00:10:39,222 --> 00:10:41,902 Processors have to be able to update their rates and fees. 187 00:10:41,902 --> 00:10:44,382 They just don't do it in step, right? 188 00:10:44,382 --> 00:10:46,352 Visa raises it five basis points. 189 00:10:46,352 --> 00:10:49,082 The processor raises it 25 basis points. 190 00:10:49,422 --> 00:10:54,426 And I have seen them, I've seen processors charge in excess of three, 191 00:10:54,426 --> 00:10:57,286 hundred basis points above cost. 192 00:10:58,546 --> 00:11:03,926 This isn't really what should be happening to a small business. 193 00:11:03,926 --> 00:11:10,556 And I'll tell you, our research, $30 to $50 billion a year problem, and it's all 194 00:11:10,556 --> 00:11:11,896 on small to medium -sized companies. 195 00:11:11,896 --> 00:11:16,026 Because if you have a big, sophisticated supply chain management team and vendor 196 00:11:16,026 --> 00:11:20,146 relations team, or you're hiring guys like KPMG and ENY, these management companies 197 00:11:20,146 --> 00:11:23,226 to come in and help you, you've probably got a pretty decent. 198 00:11:23,226 --> 00:11:25,886 handle around what you're paying above interchange. 199 00:11:26,066 --> 00:11:27,225 The small guys don't. 200 00:11:27,225 --> 00:11:29,746 They just don't have that level of sophistication. 201 00:11:29,746 --> 00:11:33,246 So I'm bringing it to small to medium business because I believe that's where 202 00:11:33,246 --> 00:11:35,506 that bucket of money is being burdened. 203 00:11:35,506 --> 00:11:37,526 And so that's really payment brokers in it. 204 00:11:37,526 --> 00:11:39,726 We do it as an advocate. 205 00:11:39,726 --> 00:11:41,216 There are so many calls I have. 206 00:11:41,216 --> 00:11:42,906 I'm like, here's a bunch of DIY stuff. 207 00:11:42,906 --> 00:11:44,486 We can't even make money doing that. 208 00:11:44,486 --> 00:11:45,716 Like, go do these things. 209 00:11:45,716 --> 00:11:46,576 Go get a pin pad. 210 00:11:46,576 --> 00:11:47,446 You're taking debit cards. 211 00:11:47,446 --> 00:11:51,786 You'll save half a percent and, you know, 20 cents on a transaction. 212 00:11:51,870 --> 00:11:57,590 If you're a non -profit, I'm like, go play, apply for a non -profit interchange. 213 00:11:57,590 --> 00:11:58,770 It'll save you a ton of money. 214 00:11:58,770 --> 00:12:00,710 We don't make money doing that. 215 00:12:01,130 --> 00:12:05,770 So this was me being able to give back a bit, and we make money doing it. 216 00:12:05,770 --> 00:12:06,623 Don't get me wrong. 217 00:12:06,623 --> 00:12:11,303 Yeah, so, and I mentioned the word pivot and the idea of pivoting. 218 00:12:11,303 --> 00:12:19,323 So, have you ever considered starting a payment processor that does things the 219 00:12:19,323 --> 00:12:20,151 right way? 220 00:12:21,710 --> 00:12:25,670 Yes, but I think that would take away from what we're doing. 221 00:12:25,670 --> 00:12:30,000 I mean, I think today the claim for us is we're not a processor. 222 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:31,440 We don't represent a processor. 223 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,550 We don't want people to switch. 224 00:12:34,570 --> 00:12:38,190 It is kind of, I mean, look, we're splitting the savings with our customers, 225 00:12:38,190 --> 00:12:41,030 so it's a for -profit company. 226 00:12:41,770 --> 00:12:46,450 But we're 100 % based on what we deliver. 227 00:12:46,450 --> 00:12:49,210 We make zero dollars if we save you zero dollars. 228 00:12:49,210 --> 00:12:50,202 I love that. 229 00:12:50,202 --> 00:12:54,622 But if my take was, hey, I wanna move you over to my service, part of the challenge 230 00:12:54,622 --> 00:13:01,492 is changing, underwriting, and changing your equipment and buying new things and 231 00:13:01,492 --> 00:13:05,622 technology integrations into ERP systems and e -commerce platforms. 232 00:13:05,622 --> 00:13:06,742 I don't want you to switch. 233 00:13:06,742 --> 00:13:12,702 It's so much of a headache to retrain 20 employees on a new POS system when the 234 00:13:12,702 --> 00:13:14,502 devil you know is better than the devil you don't. 235 00:13:14,502 --> 00:13:18,102 I could start a processor and say, hey, we're just gonna give you pure interchange 236 00:13:18,102 --> 00:13:19,258 and. 237 00:13:19,258 --> 00:13:23,078 here's our profit margin and it's public and it's very simple. 238 00:13:23,078 --> 00:13:27,418 But even that, I think we'd be a target of the bigger companies. 239 00:13:27,418 --> 00:13:29,098 And it's a race to the bottom. 240 00:13:29,098 --> 00:13:29,503 So. 241 00:13:29,503 --> 00:13:33,743 take it just a short step backwards. 242 00:13:33,743 --> 00:13:43,592 I'm curious when you made this change into purpose and mission driven businesses and 243 00:13:43,592 --> 00:13:49,573 what was the last business you had that was not like that and was that a 244 00:13:49,573 --> 00:13:50,971 successful business? 245 00:13:51,578 --> 00:13:54,078 So the last exit was December 1st. 246 00:13:54,078 --> 00:13:56,798 I had a graphic design agency. 247 00:13:56,798 --> 00:13:59,918 So the last one was real passion. 248 00:13:59,918 --> 00:14:01,358 I love design. 249 00:14:01,358 --> 00:14:03,718 I just absolutely love art. 250 00:14:03,718 --> 00:14:04,678 I love design. 251 00:14:04,678 --> 00:14:05,998 I have an eye for it. 252 00:14:05,998 --> 00:14:11,778 I'm not classically trained, but having run an agency now, I know that I was made 253 00:14:11,778 --> 00:14:13,138 to do that. 254 00:14:13,338 --> 00:14:21,018 But turning what you love into a business is also not necessarily the best idea. 255 00:14:21,311 --> 00:14:25,981 Yeah, you know, I tried that with sports, a company called Interactive Sports in the 256 00:14:25,981 --> 00:14:26,461 90s. 257 00:14:26,461 --> 00:14:30,351 And I'm happy to report I did not lose my love of sports. 258 00:14:30,351 --> 00:14:34,711 But when I started the business, I was like, you know, what would really be 259 00:14:34,711 --> 00:14:37,731 horrible here is if I ended up not liking this at all. 260 00:14:37,731 --> 00:14:40,711 Now, tonight, I'm going to watch the NCAA basketball. 261 00:14:40,711 --> 00:14:43,611 So it's fair to say that I have not lost my love of sports. 262 00:14:43,611 --> 00:14:46,807 But it's a it's something to really think about, isn't it? 263 00:14:47,194 --> 00:14:50,474 Yeah, it's funny because I think people follow their passion, right? 264 00:14:50,474 --> 00:14:54,154 Somebody has said this to people for years, like follow your passion into it. 265 00:14:54,154 --> 00:14:56,894 I don't disagree with that statement. 266 00:14:57,394 --> 00:15:02,174 If you're solving a real problem and you're passionate about it, what a great 267 00:15:02,174 --> 00:15:06,744 business to be in where people see that you love the challenge of what you're 268 00:15:06,744 --> 00:15:07,594 building. 269 00:15:07,654 --> 00:15:10,654 I would follow that leader blindly. 270 00:15:10,654 --> 00:15:14,815 I would buy from that company first if I knew that. 271 00:15:14,815 --> 00:15:16,375 So what was the design company? 272 00:15:16,375 --> 00:15:18,487 Was it Design I .O.? 273 00:15:18,650 --> 00:15:21,951 It was designeded .co. 274 00:15:21,951 --> 00:15:24,905 dot co design dot co and what did it do? 275 00:15:24,922 --> 00:15:31,132 So we were trying to, I was trying to bring really high quality design to small 276 00:15:31,132 --> 00:15:32,332 business that couldn't afford it. 277 00:15:32,332 --> 00:15:36,862 Cause I was, I mean the first, first part of that company was that it was an agency 278 00:15:36,862 --> 00:15:40,112 I built behind the scenes to support all of my spin out crazy ideas. 279 00:15:40,112 --> 00:15:42,952 That was really what it was before, but it wasn't profitable. 280 00:15:42,952 --> 00:15:46,872 It was just something I had on call like, Hey, I have this new idea. 281 00:15:46,872 --> 00:15:47,432 I need a logo. 282 00:15:47,432 --> 00:15:48,172 I need this. 283 00:15:48,172 --> 00:15:49,622 I need all of these assets. 284 00:15:49,622 --> 00:15:50,822 I need social media content. 285 00:15:50,822 --> 00:15:51,662 I need all of these things. 286 00:15:51,662 --> 00:15:55,236 So I had this internal agency and. 287 00:15:55,258 --> 00:16:01,888 I decided at one point that there's a better model to not do what traditional 288 00:16:01,888 --> 00:16:02,528 agency had done. 289 00:16:02,528 --> 00:16:07,298 I had a huge spend in design in my previous career. 290 00:16:07,298 --> 00:16:11,908 And when I spent it, it was such an archaic journey to get something very 291 00:16:11,908 --> 00:16:14,718 simple done and it cost way too much money. 292 00:16:14,718 --> 00:16:17,768 And you had to have like, you know, minimum spends and all sorts of other 293 00:16:17,768 --> 00:16:17,928 things. 294 00:16:17,928 --> 00:16:23,906 So I believed I could change the model by creating a subscription based design. 295 00:16:23,930 --> 00:16:30,320 And I built software to manage the design process internally and externally for the 296 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:37,350 customer so they could go in and put in a request and have local US -based, really 297 00:16:37,350 --> 00:16:43,370 high quality, you know, RISD and New York School of Design grad level designers who 298 00:16:43,370 --> 00:16:45,410 the big agencies hired. 299 00:16:45,410 --> 00:16:49,380 I said, look, we will hire them full time when these agencies were only bringing 300 00:16:49,380 --> 00:16:51,556 them in project -based. 301 00:16:51,706 --> 00:16:55,826 So I was offering them a more stable environment because we had a subscription 302 00:16:55,826 --> 00:17:00,606 and that subscription would be fractional ownership or fractional use of that 303 00:17:00,606 --> 00:17:01,286 designer. 304 00:17:01,286 --> 00:17:06,606 And so it scaled up really well and it did extremely well, but a company called Core, 305 00:17:06,606 --> 00:17:10,706 I really, really respect the guy who built this company. 306 00:17:10,706 --> 00:17:17,826 He had acquired my last company, which was called ireview .com, which was an online 307 00:17:17,826 --> 00:17:19,418 reputation management company. 308 00:17:19,418 --> 00:17:21,318 And they had some challenges with design along the way. 309 00:17:21,318 --> 00:17:25,168 And he actually pitched me early on when he bought my last company, hey, I want to 310 00:17:25,168 --> 00:17:26,018 buy your design company. 311 00:17:26,018 --> 00:17:27,798 And I was like, no, it's just getting off the ground. 312 00:17:27,798 --> 00:17:28,808 There's no valuation yet. 313 00:17:28,808 --> 00:17:31,478 Like we didn't even have that significant revenue. 314 00:17:31,478 --> 00:17:32,798 And we had a conversation. 315 00:17:32,798 --> 00:17:38,158 And he's a very, really good leader in terms of human capital growth. 316 00:17:38,158 --> 00:17:39,378 I'm not that guy. 317 00:17:39,378 --> 00:17:41,838 I'm not an operator from that perspective. 318 00:17:42,358 --> 00:17:43,718 Orness Mella. 319 00:17:44,418 --> 00:17:47,148 And he bought two companies for me. 320 00:17:47,148 --> 00:17:48,730 And I would say, what? 321 00:17:48,730 --> 00:17:55,410 what they have in terms of vision and growth for their agency was so much bigger 322 00:17:55,410 --> 00:17:59,910 than the vision I had that it just made sense for them to take it over. 323 00:17:59,910 --> 00:18:03,990 And then I, of course, in turn invested part of that capital back into their 324 00:18:03,990 --> 00:18:05,390 parent company core. 325 00:18:05,390 --> 00:18:08,010 And I think I really believe in what they're doing. 326 00:18:08,010 --> 00:18:09,530 So it was like, this is a great fit. 327 00:18:09,530 --> 00:18:10,590 They like to operate. 328 00:18:10,590 --> 00:18:11,970 I'm not an operator. 329 00:18:11,970 --> 00:18:15,630 I know where I fit in the general scheme of business now. 330 00:18:15,630 --> 00:18:16,954 And because of that, 331 00:18:16,954 --> 00:18:20,094 I have more drive and passion because I like to build stuff. 332 00:18:20,094 --> 00:18:20,815 I'm a builder. 333 00:18:20,815 --> 00:18:22,865 when did you realize you weren't an operator? 334 00:18:22,865 --> 00:18:24,319 What was that moment? 335 00:18:25,054 --> 00:18:27,014 Every day I operate. 336 00:18:28,714 --> 00:18:33,134 I think, I hope your listeners don't say the same thing. 337 00:18:33,134 --> 00:18:36,063 Like just because it sucks doesn't mean you're not built for it. 338 00:18:36,063 --> 00:18:40,633 No, but I think that the point here is I feel the same way actually about not 339 00:18:40,633 --> 00:18:42,063 really being an operator. 340 00:18:42,063 --> 00:18:44,023 I'm not an operator. 341 00:18:44,563 --> 00:18:48,223 I'm much better at a more strategic level. 342 00:18:48,743 --> 00:18:54,033 I'm less good at the hands -on unless it has to do with writing and content and 343 00:18:54,033 --> 00:18:54,943 text. 344 00:18:54,943 --> 00:19:01,573 But I think it's an important thing for people in our audience who are founders to 345 00:19:01,573 --> 00:19:03,199 sort of realize their... 346 00:19:03,199 --> 00:19:09,259 It's if there are things you can't do well, that's actually okay, right? 347 00:19:09,259 --> 00:19:12,207 It's like you're better off doing what you did. 348 00:19:13,210 --> 00:19:17,380 Yeah, Michael, I get asked all the time, should I go learn this and have a better 349 00:19:17,380 --> 00:19:18,930 skill set at operating? 350 00:19:19,270 --> 00:19:21,970 It's like, what chapter in the book do you want to write? 351 00:19:21,970 --> 00:19:22,970 It's up to you. 352 00:19:22,970 --> 00:19:27,120 I mean, I look at the end chapter of my book and I'm like, what does that read 353 00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:27,470 like? 354 00:19:27,470 --> 00:19:28,880 What do I do every day? 355 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:30,150 What's my lifestyle look like? 356 00:19:30,150 --> 00:19:32,410 Does that include being an operator? 357 00:19:32,410 --> 00:19:34,430 I want to be known for that. 358 00:19:34,430 --> 00:19:35,410 I didn't. 359 00:19:35,410 --> 00:19:41,090 And I recognized sooner than later, luckily for me, that I have, I'm an 360 00:19:41,090 --> 00:19:42,618 amazing ideator. 361 00:19:42,618 --> 00:19:45,958 I have real, real foundation and creativity. 362 00:19:45,958 --> 00:19:51,018 I can get things to revenue quickly and I love bottom -up building. 363 00:19:51,018 --> 00:19:53,278 I love profit -first build. 364 00:19:53,278 --> 00:19:58,757 And if I could just do that, there are operators that value that at 10 and 20x. 365 00:19:58,757 --> 00:20:02,958 Why would I take the execution risk of something I'm not good at doing? 366 00:20:03,138 --> 00:20:07,188 So I could go find great operators and plug them in and I have, like in general, 367 00:20:07,188 --> 00:20:10,029 we have to do that anyway in the beginning of these organizations. 368 00:20:10,029 --> 00:20:11,842 you don't have to do that work yourself. 369 00:20:11,842 --> 00:20:12,582 Exactly. 370 00:20:12,582 --> 00:20:17,512 So why take the execution risk when someone is willing to 10x the EBITDA board 371 00:20:17,512 --> 00:20:18,202 I've already built? 372 00:20:18,202 --> 00:20:22,022 It's like, I would take me 10 years to get there or, you know, through growth, I can 373 00:20:22,022 --> 00:20:24,786 get there faster, great, but I don't have to. 374 00:20:26,627 --> 00:20:33,587 somebody who is not an operator, how do you recognize when somebody will be a good 375 00:20:33,587 --> 00:20:36,885 operator? 376 00:20:36,986 --> 00:20:39,576 I can see it in the people I've worked with. 377 00:20:39,576 --> 00:20:45,686 I can't tell you that I can identify the skill set well because I'm not one, right? 378 00:20:45,686 --> 00:20:47,486 It takes one to know one. 379 00:20:47,486 --> 00:20:50,776 I could say that I've worked with some amazing operators. 380 00:20:50,776 --> 00:20:54,366 Actually, no, I just met a guy in the roofing industry. 381 00:20:54,366 --> 00:20:58,306 He is a natural born operator. 382 00:20:59,006 --> 00:21:00,499 And you know, after meeting... 383 00:21:00,499 --> 00:21:02,903 What did you see that makes you say that? 384 00:21:03,738 --> 00:21:05,138 He loves it. 385 00:21:05,138 --> 00:21:11,408 He lives for the, he likes being in the detail, in the dirt, in the trenches with 386 00:21:11,408 --> 00:21:13,298 the guys in the field. 387 00:21:13,658 --> 00:21:15,038 He'll go on the route. 388 00:21:15,038 --> 00:21:15,918 That's the thing. 389 00:21:15,918 --> 00:21:22,098 There was no pride in ownership beyond him doing the same tasks. 390 00:21:22,098 --> 00:21:27,998 And they've scaled this company so big, so fast, because he's a phenomenal operator. 391 00:21:27,998 --> 00:21:32,056 So I can see it from that perspective, but I also see, 392 00:21:32,602 --> 00:21:34,462 It's not for me. 393 00:21:34,462 --> 00:21:36,602 I think I like to build things. 394 00:21:36,602 --> 00:21:41,902 I have 900 other ideas on the burner of things I want to build that have more 395 00:21:41,902 --> 00:21:45,362 purpose and value to impact the world. 396 00:21:45,362 --> 00:21:47,199 Why would I go operate it? 397 00:21:47,199 --> 00:21:47,519 Jeremy? 398 00:21:47,519 --> 00:21:49,561 Do you mean literally 900? 399 00:21:50,138 --> 00:21:54,237 I mean, to be honest, if I've scrolled through them, I've never counted how many, 400 00:21:54,237 --> 00:21:58,958 but there's definitely a hundred really, really dialed in ideas. 401 00:21:58,958 --> 00:22:05,298 And so I was given a mentor of mine said, stop, you need to have like, you got to 402 00:22:05,298 --> 00:22:06,498 focus a little bit. 403 00:22:06,498 --> 00:22:09,798 You can spin out too many things simultaneously. 404 00:22:09,898 --> 00:22:13,468 My wife said the same thing, like no more new business, like time out, no more new 405 00:22:13,468 --> 00:22:14,018 businesses. 406 00:22:14,018 --> 00:22:18,488 And my business partners have said the same thing, like, Hey, can you just stay 407 00:22:18,488 --> 00:22:19,231 focused? 408 00:22:19,231 --> 00:22:19,642 Stop. 409 00:22:19,642 --> 00:22:25,862 So, so when my outlet has become writing and I'm a terrible writer, so I will just 410 00:22:25,862 --> 00:22:27,181 hack away at my idea. 411 00:22:27,181 --> 00:22:33,001 who teaches writing and has a book called Write Good on Amazon, I have to tell you, 412 00:22:33,001 --> 00:22:39,781 you cannot, you're not allowed to say that because people, if you want me to read 413 00:22:39,781 --> 00:22:43,741 something and tell you are a terrible writer, I'll tell you, but people sort of 414 00:22:43,741 --> 00:22:46,291 talk themselves out of it way too early. 415 00:22:46,511 --> 00:22:51,511 I mean, you're articulate, therefore, like, well, if, for example, if you just 416 00:22:51,511 --> 00:22:53,447 recorded what you said, 417 00:22:53,983 --> 00:22:58,007 and cleaned it up a little bit, you'd have a pretty good piece of stuff. 418 00:22:58,106 --> 00:23:00,826 So I let my mind go and I just hack it out. 419 00:23:00,826 --> 00:23:03,726 Like, I gotta get this idea off my chest. 420 00:23:03,866 --> 00:23:08,896 And so I have this notepad that somebody has said, you need to put this out to the 421 00:23:08,896 --> 00:23:12,826 world, because some of these ideas are absolutely genius and should be done. 422 00:23:12,826 --> 00:23:16,986 But now I'm watching them be done, which is even funnier, because my wife will look 423 00:23:16,986 --> 00:23:18,556 and she goes, wasn't that your idea? 424 00:23:18,556 --> 00:23:20,126 Didn't you just talk about that? 425 00:23:20,126 --> 00:23:23,306 Like, yeah, really? 426 00:23:23,986 --> 00:23:25,640 I can't do all things. 427 00:23:26,155 --> 00:23:28,125 that though a sign of a good idea? 428 00:23:28,125 --> 00:23:37,705 Because what happens is oftentimes a great entrepreneurial idea is obvious after it 429 00:23:37,705 --> 00:23:38,875 exists. 430 00:23:39,895 --> 00:23:40,555 Right? 431 00:23:40,555 --> 00:23:44,365 And until it exists, it's like, you know, why would you do, why would you have a 432 00:23:44,365 --> 00:23:44,865 search engine? 433 00:23:44,865 --> 00:23:49,955 I remember when I heard about, you know, Google or even AltaVista, I was like, 434 00:23:50,175 --> 00:23:51,065 I don't get that. 435 00:23:51,065 --> 00:23:52,555 I just don't see that. 436 00:23:52,555 --> 00:23:55,055 I don't see that working. 437 00:23:55,055 --> 00:24:00,935 Now, in my defense, Google didn't see advertising working, right? 438 00:24:00,935 --> 00:24:06,085 That the people in Google, like most of them, were against Google Ads when they 439 00:24:06,085 --> 00:24:09,355 were, you know, it got developed kind of on the side. 440 00:24:09,535 --> 00:24:13,995 It was just over 90 % of the revenue today, right? 441 00:24:13,995 --> 00:24:15,715 They didn't want to do it. 442 00:24:15,715 --> 00:24:17,835 But, you know, it's interesting. 443 00:24:17,835 --> 00:24:18,431 So, 444 00:24:18,431 --> 00:24:21,371 We have a few moments to speak about the future. 445 00:24:22,271 --> 00:24:29,551 So what, okay, let's think and talk about that sheet of a hundred ideas. 446 00:24:30,511 --> 00:24:35,831 So don't give me the next one, but give me the one after the next one. 447 00:24:35,831 --> 00:24:38,611 Like what's the one that really gets you excited? 448 00:24:39,411 --> 00:24:40,942 Are you looking at the list? 449 00:24:40,942 --> 00:24:43,962 I'm not, I know them by heart. 450 00:24:44,202 --> 00:24:47,462 So I do, I could rattle them off. 451 00:24:47,462 --> 00:24:50,142 I mean, I have so many that are important. 452 00:24:50,142 --> 00:24:54,152 Some of them are just fun, things that I really wanna do or things that I've 453 00:24:54,152 --> 00:24:58,292 identified as gaps in markets that I was like, this is so big and such a vast 454 00:24:58,292 --> 00:24:58,892 opportunity. 455 00:24:58,892 --> 00:25:01,542 I don't see why someone's not doing this. 456 00:25:01,822 --> 00:25:06,362 But then I think what's happened is what I said early on, which is, does this align 457 00:25:06,362 --> 00:25:07,562 with me? 458 00:25:07,682 --> 00:25:09,362 Does it align with my... 459 00:25:09,420 --> 00:25:12,510 end chapter of my book, whatever that might be, is this what I want to be known 460 00:25:12,510 --> 00:25:13,450 for and do? 461 00:25:13,450 --> 00:25:17,710 There's a lot of, I have like some criteria now that needs to be met in order 462 00:25:17,710 --> 00:25:21,230 for me to even entertain these business ideas. 463 00:25:22,170 --> 00:25:23,093 Sure. 464 00:25:23,093 --> 00:25:25,423 want to be known for? 465 00:25:25,703 --> 00:25:31,953 Maybe that's a work in progress and answer in progress, but how close are you to 466 00:25:31,953 --> 00:25:33,407 answering that question? 467 00:25:34,618 --> 00:25:37,498 I think that's a relentless quest for perfection. 468 00:25:37,498 --> 00:25:39,298 I don't think I'll know the answer. 469 00:25:39,298 --> 00:25:42,658 If you would have asked me 10 years ago, it would be very different than today. 470 00:25:42,798 --> 00:25:46,917 So I think now I'm trying, I'm a Libra, so I'm gonna say. 471 00:25:46,917 --> 00:25:49,087 not meaning. 472 00:25:49,347 --> 00:25:51,044 You know, perfection is not an issue. 473 00:25:51,044 --> 00:25:55,474 perfect the meaning of what I should be here to do. 474 00:25:55,474 --> 00:26:02,124 I think more what I've been focused now is just harmony and alignment with these 475 00:26:02,124 --> 00:26:08,374 things I'm building into what makes meaning in my life and brings joy every 476 00:26:08,374 --> 00:26:09,334 day. 477 00:26:09,614 --> 00:26:15,344 So, and more recently, my father passed last year and that was a massive event for 478 00:26:15,344 --> 00:26:17,846 me to look at. 479 00:26:17,846 --> 00:26:21,866 Myself internally, I don't you know, I don't think I've ever He was 90. 480 00:26:21,866 --> 00:26:29,206 So he had an amazingly long life Amazing and I think looking at legacy changed 481 00:26:29,206 --> 00:26:31,076 everything also in general. 482 00:26:31,076 --> 00:26:36,286 It gave me a little bit more Direction in terms of looking at his end of life and 483 00:26:36,286 --> 00:26:41,116 where I see mine I've never done that before so it's very different but I I 484 00:26:41,116 --> 00:26:46,476 think it gave me a Piece of insight that I didn't have before which was like slow 485 00:26:46,476 --> 00:26:47,314 down 486 00:26:47,860 --> 00:26:51,960 enjoy the things around you and try to have some balance in what you're building 487 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,700 and not like, I have been burning 18 hours a day. 488 00:26:55,700 --> 00:27:00,880 I mean, I grew up in a very humble environment and I said it was really about 489 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,020 survival in the beginning and now it's more what can I do to impact things around 490 00:27:05,020 --> 00:27:05,730 me? 491 00:27:05,730 --> 00:27:08,350 And that's having a purpose bigger than myself. 492 00:27:08,750 --> 00:27:09,307 So. 493 00:27:09,307 --> 00:27:14,167 we're kind of the end of the podcast, but would you tell, would you advise somebody? 494 00:27:14,267 --> 00:27:15,707 Because I actually do this. 495 00:27:15,707 --> 00:27:22,757 I mean, this is part of, you know, what I, what I say to founders is, um, you know, I 496 00:27:22,757 --> 00:27:24,447 asked, what do you really care about? 497 00:27:24,447 --> 00:27:26,817 Like what, what matters to you? 498 00:27:26,817 --> 00:27:29,147 You know, those guys, that's sort of my starting point. 499 00:27:29,147 --> 00:27:30,387 And I'm not alone in that. 500 00:27:30,387 --> 00:27:34,867 Lots of people, you know, believe that, but in your case, if you could do this 501 00:27:34,867 --> 00:27:37,905 over, would you start with that? 502 00:27:38,431 --> 00:27:40,026 back for further. 503 00:27:40,026 --> 00:27:42,606 would have never brought me here otherwise. 504 00:27:42,606 --> 00:27:51,326 I think now it's, my purpose now, at least partially, besides those around me, is the 505 00:27:51,326 --> 00:27:55,746 younger version of me that I wish I could have had this conversation with. 506 00:27:55,986 --> 00:28:01,046 So now this is my opportunity where, to be honest, like even getting on this podcast 507 00:28:01,046 --> 00:28:03,738 was supposed to be something I did for my last company. 508 00:28:03,738 --> 00:28:07,058 And here we are, I'm like, you know what, I still wanna get that message out there 509 00:28:07,058 --> 00:28:11,398 if there's things I can do to impact people in a more positive way early on in 510 00:28:11,398 --> 00:28:17,138 the stages of startup and small into a point of like having more thoughtful 511 00:28:17,138 --> 00:28:21,698 growth, not just, you know, burning, which everybody does. 512 00:28:21,698 --> 00:28:23,038 Look, there's a purpose for that. 513 00:28:23,038 --> 00:28:25,518 I know there's a rise in grind mentality. 514 00:28:25,518 --> 00:28:29,058 I just think that maybe it should be a little bit more balanced and I'm trying to 515 00:28:29,058 --> 00:28:30,408 help where I can in that. 516 00:28:30,408 --> 00:28:33,018 And my next venture is purely about housing. 517 00:28:33,018 --> 00:28:35,948 And I think the reason why is because I didn't have housing. 518 00:28:35,948 --> 00:28:38,418 I lived in a car early in my life. 519 00:28:38,418 --> 00:28:42,378 So I think I'm looking at the younger version of myself saying, how could I 520 00:28:42,378 --> 00:28:48,087 impact that guy and where can I make the biggest impact community wise? 521 00:28:48,087 --> 00:28:51,407 you know, what I would say is sort of us looking at things from a storytelling 522 00:28:51,407 --> 00:28:54,807 standpoint is like, that's a great origin story. 523 00:28:54,807 --> 00:29:01,517 Starting a housing company because housing was an issue and you had to sleep in a car 524 00:29:01,517 --> 00:29:02,735 for how long? 525 00:29:05,050 --> 00:29:07,670 I want to say was on and off for a couple years. 526 00:29:07,670 --> 00:29:13,590 My father did an amazing job of making it work and not seem like a big deal. 527 00:29:13,590 --> 00:29:19,760 But I would say it was it was now looking back, it's like people just don't have as 528 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:24,610 easy of an opportunity to be a homeowner early in the phases of their life. 529 00:29:24,610 --> 00:29:28,450 So I'm trying to impact affordable housing and do so through crowdfunding. 530 00:29:28,450 --> 00:29:34,204 And there's a lot of investment there from my side now as a second growth. 531 00:29:34,375 --> 00:29:39,874 talk about that because for regulatory reasons, but we will, if you come back 532 00:29:39,874 --> 00:29:42,515 when you're ready, we can definitely talk about that. 533 00:29:42,515 --> 00:29:43,995 So thanks for being with us, Jeremy. 534 00:29:43,995 --> 00:29:46,245 This has been a great podcast. 535 00:29:46,245 --> 00:29:48,129 Great to have you on the accelerator. 536 00:29:48,346 --> 00:29:50,066 Thanks, I really appreciate the time. 537 00:29:50,066 --> 00:29:51,579 It was great to hang out with you today. 538 00:29:51,579 --> 00:29:55,739 And I want to thank all of you out there for listening to the accelerator. 539 00:29:55,739 --> 00:29:58,899 Subscribe on Substack, like us, rate us. 540 00:29:58,899 --> 00:30:04,639 We're on Apple, Amazon, Audible, and every other goddamn platform out there, 541 00:30:04,919 --> 00:30:06,919 including Spotify and YouTube. 542 00:30:06,919 --> 00:30:09,199 So it's pretty hard to avoid us. 543 00:30:09,199 --> 00:30:10,749 So, but we do appreciate it. 544 00:30:10,749 --> 00:30:14,819 And remember, we'll be back with another podcast before you know it.