Zoe: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Autism and Theology Podcast, brought to you by the Center for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen.

Welcome to this CATChat episode of the Autism and Theology podcast. I'm Zoe, and it's great that you've joined us this week. I'm joined by Krysia and Ian today. This podcast is a space where we engage in the latest conversations in the field of autism theology, share relevant resources, and promote ways that help faith and non-faith communities enable autistic people to flourish.

If you would like episode to the [00:01:00] transcript, the. Linked to that can be found in the show notes. So today, as part of our mental health series that we're doing at the moment, we wanted to discuss autism, mental health, and tiredness. It's a really important topic that we wanted to address during this series. So Krysia or Ian, do either of you wanna kick us off with this conversation?

Ian: I would, but I'm too tired. Just, I'm sorry. 

Zoe: Uh, should we just turn the episode off if we're all too tired? 

Ian: That's it. We're done. Uh, and it's 

Zoe: only like nine 30 for you. 

Ian: I think, um, yeah, Ty, so this, the, the thing that I, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Um, my wife recently sprained her ankle, so she's been able to do a lot less, and I've had to take on a lot more responsibility than usual, which I am not complaining about.

I. I feel for her. Um, it's not like she chose this, so I'm not, uh, but, [00:02:00] but it's been, it, it, it's, it's caused me to reflect on this a lot more because I am exhausted at the end of the day. Um, and part of the reason is because I think this is my, this is my 2 cents on it, that one of the things that neurotypical people don't understand about autism is, for me, there are very few things that I am truly on autopilot for.

There are very few things that are truly so habitual that I can do them without even thinking about them at all. Which means even things like getting my children breakfast in the morning, getting their lunches ready. All takes conscious thought, which is one of the most energy consuming things possible for the human body.

So I have to be consciously thinking about, okay, what do I do next? Rather than just sort of on autopilot and coasting and, and putting the peanut butter on the bread, et cetera, et cetera. So. To me, I think that's a big part of autistic tiredness. Um, I don't know that that's the only [00:03:00] explanation. I'm, I, I don't even know if there's research on this or if I'm making it up entirely, but to me that's a big part of it is I spend so much of my day, I.

Thinking very consciously and intentionally about what it is that I'm doing, um, in order to sort of manage my executive dysfunction. And I would imagine ADHDers have something similar, um, to this as well, that by the end of the day, I'm just, I'm, my brain is fried, right? I just do not have it in me to make any more decisions or to carry out any more complex tasks.

And I'm just like, I'm just gonna sit here and do absolutely nothing. So that's my, that's my experience of it. 

Krysia: Yeah. I think for me, I now work from home all the time and I've found, although I miss seeing people and bumping into people, I used to get really, really tired with the commute, especially if it has multiple steps.

Its that I drive, I generally drive a lot of places [00:04:00] because it's just one step. Um, but when I lived at my parents' house, I used to get the university shuttle bus down to save a bit of petrol, sometimes having to get driven down to the bus stop because the bus, if I got the bus, the local bus, it would've been about an hour on the local bus because I lived the other end of town to where the drop off bus was.

Then getting the other bus and then walking to where I wanted to go on campus. And if I got the train, it would've been a 20 minute walk to the station, an hour on the train, and then another 20 minute bus up the hill. And you. Kind of those, all the, like Ian was saying, each bit has to be kind of, it's, I didn't really do any of it on autopilot.

I'd need to know the exact times things were going so I could energy plan and energy map effectively what I was doing. And I feel that a lot of people don't necessarily do that and find necessarily have that kind, those kind of mental gymnastics of how exhausting. Doing kind of really long travelers, especially with multiple blocks and especially with things like [00:05:00] trains and buses.

Um, students on the bus sometimes eat smelly food or have loud music or kind of trains are just noisy anyway, so there's that kind of energy depletion, which doesn't necessarily happen if I'm in the car. But I'm also aware having a car is a massive privilege. So there's always that real kind of. Tie up there that I'm aware of that some people aren't necessarily dealing with.

Zoe: Yeah, and I think just to add to that, thinking about like, I. My own experience as a dyslexic person as well. I think sometimes like additionally to that, there's the fear of getting things wrong and that stops you from going into autopilot. Like for me, like public transport is exhausting because I know that I'm likely to read that time wrong, and it's usually in 24 hour time.

So again, I've got that additional like. Is it actually seven o'clock or is it nine o'clock? Because it's like the, and like just having to like check, double check, triple check, quadruple check, whatever, just to [00:06:00] make sure I 100% got it right. And that's tiring. And then the fear of getting it wrong is also draining and the anxiety of that.

And then that's a vicious circle because you're more likely to get things wrong if you're anxious or stressed. So then it's like this vicious circle of it being exhausting and. Yeah, it's, it's not fun. And that's why me and buses don't get along very well because, and then if the bus is late, you worry that you've missed it.

And like, just all these things I think people often don't realize can be stressful and like yeah, I said like, people can go into autopilot and Yeah, a lot of neurodivergent people can't do that in the same way. And that's draining. And then the other thing I was thinking of just when both of you were speaking, um, something that's come up in my research quite a bit is like if you are just like being so tired at the end of the day, but you're expected to just push through and that can be pretty impossible or really, really painful.

And I think like. I'd [00:07:00] be really interested to hear your thoughts. 'cause I don't know the answers to this. I've not done the research around this, but I wonder if like, it's hard because maybe if like people get tired, everyone gets tired. It's not a uniquely neurodivergent thing that we get tired. But I wonder if like, because it's that different level of exhaustion when your brain's having to process things in different ways all day.

And I wonder if like. There's almost an expectation that neurotypical people, because a lot of neuro-typical people, it's easier just to push through that tiredness and just kind of like reel, reel yourself together. I don't know, like get just like. Oh, like, just like get into a mindset where you've got energy and then do whatever else needs done in the day, which isn't always possible if you experience exhaustion from being neurodivergent or whatever else.

Um, yeah, I don't know. That's just kind of a thought I was having while you were both speaking. 

Ian: Yeah. And it's complicated, right? Because for autistic [00:08:00] people in particular, pushing through tiredness or exhaustion leads to autistic burnout, and we know that pretty well. And autistic burnout is nothing to mess around with, right?

Uh, and maybe that's a, a subject for a different episode, but, um, but also. Um, so one other thing, Krysia that occurred to me when you were talking is the tiredness that comes just from social interaction, which you sort of alluded to. Yes. And how difficult that is and how I, I mean, honest to goodness, I don't think neurotypical people realize just how much thought I have to put into social interaction.

It is exhausting. Um. But also even driving, like people don't drive logically or rationally and sometimes they do really infuriating things and that also carries a it tire sort of wears me out and, and tires me out. But, um, the other thing that I wanna say about autistic tiredness is that oftentimes. [00:09:00] Um, people understand being sort of worn out or people understand being physically exhausted, but to me the, the most characteristic autistic tiredness or exhaustion that I experience is just being completely overwhelmed in terms of.

Executive dysfunction, right? I cannot, I, I still have physical energy if I need to do something physically, and if you ask me to do something very specific, I can do it right, but I cannot make any more decisions. I cannot handle any complex tasks that I can't break down. So it's a very diff for me, at least, the, the, the type of tiredness or exhaustion that I experience most frequently is very different from what people think of like.

As in terms of I'm physically tired because I spend all day working out in the yard or in the heat or something like that. It's not that. Um. Although I can, I can understand that. But that to me is not autistic tiredness or autistic [00:10:00] exhaustion. It really is. I, I, you cannot ask me to make a decision. I do not have it in me anymore.

Right. Or if you need me to do something, I need you to break it down for me and say, do this thing in these steps. Um, and if you do that, then I can do it. Um, it's not that I'm physically incapable of anything, it's just that. I, I, I, I have no more executive function to spare, if that makes sense. 

Zoe: And I think that has so much relevance to church.

It was specifically what you were saying about social interaction. So much stuff at church. Um, I know I'm at a church where there's a lot of like midweek stuff. There's like a lot of kids clubs or whatever else, and pretty much everything is social. Um. Even if it's prayer meetings and I'm just thinking about that even like the expectation to go to these things.

'cause it's part of like a healthy church life would kind of be the under like the general understanding. And I think that's a really interesting point. 'cause it's like, yeah, okay these things might be really [00:11:00] like you might really be needed serve in that area or um, it might be really beneficial for your spiritual wellbeing to go to prayer meetings or whatever else.

But is that kind of like. Well, equally social interaction. That can be what tips you over the edge at the end of a really long day, or even going to church on a Sunday morning after a week of working and being, that can be exhausting for people. And I. Uh, like I wonder if, well probably, yeah, like churches, there's maybe stigma around that or they didn't show up on the Sunday 'cause they were too tired.

Well, I'm tired too. I had a busy, I had a busy week, but I'm still here. Um, and I know I'm guilty of having that attitude sometimes. Like if I'm on worship and someone's not turned up for whatever reason, I'm like, eh, I'm here. I got off early. Like, I'm not saying like we all have these attitudes at times. I think that there is that stigma around, like what you said, people not understanding artistic burnout and that being very [00:12:00] different from, I've been out in the garden all day, or I've been at work all day, I'm tired.

Um, and that's something I think churches need to reflect on a little bit as well. 

Krysia: Yeah, because I think from. My experience, a lot of the experiences I have around fatigue impacts me generally 'cause I can generally do my full day of work. I can't do much else in the evening. So it's not like if I'm gonna go out and do something, I need to make sure that I allocate my energy.

And I think although people might sometimes understand. Feeling tired, and I think this is where coming outta the Covid pandemic actually it's really important. We have these conversations about fatigue with quite a few people now having long covid and that really shaping some people who would've already had, um, been neurodivergent, had energy limitation in the first place.

And some people who have. Experiencing it who hadn't, we probably might not have done for a very long [00:13:00] time. Um, and I think there's this urgency of understanding that churches might benefit, knowing a bit about spoon theory, that different people, different amounts of spoons, and we don't all have the same amount of spoons at the same time.

So guess, do you wanna 

Zoe: explain that theory little bit more just if anyone's not familiar? Yes. I think we've probably talked about it before, but just if anyone's not familiar. 

Krysia: Yes, definitely. So it's the idea that different amount of tasks take different amount of energy, and you can conceptualize these energy with spoons.

You can use whatever cutlery item you want. It's just the theories about spoons. Um, and it's currently described as that. But if you want to say, um, traffic cones or dark things of bread or microwaves, whatever works for you. Um. I guess it's about certain people have a different amount of spoons available to them.

Much like when we go shopping, we fill up our cart with or our [00:14:00] jolly with food, and that's the food we have for the week. And different people might put different amounts of food in according to how many people are in their house or if you do fitness training or any kind of things like that. And it's how you meter that out over.

Rather than, obviously when you do your weekly shop, it'll be over the day. So some tasks will take more of the, more of these spoons up. So for example, possibly getting up or getting dressed might take a smaller number. But if you want to perhaps have a shower, go to work, cook dinner, that's probably gonna take a few more.

And there's some people who really have to pick and choose what they do, not just on a, oh, well, I can't go and see my friends this evening because I'm really tired. I've had a long day at work. They're having to choose between quite basic everyday survival things because of the limited number of amount of energy and support that they've got as well.

And I think especially when we think of the amount of cuts that. Disabled people are experiencing in the uk for our [00:15:00] UK listeners and the support that is getting reduced, it's really important actually. We understand the, the impact of this on disabled people's lives 

Zoe: and also the impact on mental health and, um, how that can constantly, like for people who are experiencing those cuts in the uk, us um, wherever else there's cuts for these things like.

For people experiencing that, that impact on the mental wellbeing and the stress about what's gonna happen, even if it's not actually like there's a tangible thing that's like, this is like, I mean, there's the fear of something that's gonna happen that can take up energy and exhaust people and that's something to be aware of as well, as much as the tasks I guess.

Ian: Yeah, there's, um. I, I've heard this more from a ADHDers, but I think it applies to autistic people as well, that talk about waiting mode for your brain. Like if you have something that's in an hour from now, you might not be [00:16:00] able to do anything else or focus on anything else because you know something's on the horizon.

Um, and just the idea that that takes energy too, it's just. It, it, it's, it's, you know, thinking about church communities, I just don't think a lot of people are aware how much it can take out of you. Even if all you do is that hour of worship on Sunday morning. Right. Um, for an autistic person that I. That is a, that, that comes at a cost.

And I, I, I mean it very sincerely when I say it's worth the cost, but a lot of people view church as this place where I go to sort of recharge my batteries for the week, right? That's the way I've heard a lot of neurotypical people describe church and I think that's wonderful. And it is not that for me.

It's meaningful and it's worth it. And I, and I love it deeply, but it does not recharge my batteries in the same sense, right? Like a lot of times it actually, [00:17:00] I'm, I'm more tired after Sunday morning than I am after just about anything that I do. And that's not a complaint. And it's not, I'm not saying, you know, anything bad about it, but I just, I want to be honest about the fact that that takes a lot out of me, that I don't think people realize.

Zoe: Yeah, that's such a good point. And I think as well, there's the risk of like spiritualizing these things as well as with anything in neurodivergence and disability. Like, well, if you do it and turn up, you're a faithful Christian and that's wonderful.

Ian: I agree, but even more than that, sometimes we have this tendency to say, well, if you're a faithful Christian than it can't possibly cost you anything. This has to be enriching. This is exactly what we're trying to say. Um, this has to be building you up.

And it does in certain ways, and I don't want to diminish that, but in terms of energy level. It SAPs my energy level. Right. It's enriching in different ways, and it does build up the body of Christ, and it is vitally important. I agree. Um, but, but yeah, it, it, [00:18:00] it's not something where if you have enough faith, it's not tiring for you.

Right. 

Krysia: Yes. And I think also that, that sometimes there's a lack of understanding that different kind of spiritual religious practices might fill out. Fill up our proverbial glass a bit differently. So for me, doing some things on my own can be actually really fulfilling. And I know that being with other people in terms of sharing ideas and hashing them out and learning and doing Bible and all that sort of stuff is equally as beneficial.

Doing Bible is the best way I can describe it. Um, but I guess there's a certain amount of. How we do things in terms of would I go to an online group some weeks where I can still have that kind of, I guess, in kind of Christian language fellowships and meeting together and learning together and being able to share things.

And some weeks go into a more physical space where I'm actually able to manage my energy a [00:19:00] bit better, and both spaces should equally be seen as church. And everything I do on my own should also be seen as. Religious practice as well, I guess. And I think sometimes we are not very good at seeing all the different bits as equally valid.

We are only good at only saying they count if we do it in the sanctioned way properly, if that makes sense. 

Zoe: Yeah, that absolutely makes sense.

This has been, yeah, just a fascinating discussion. I hope this kind of makes people recognize that like tiredness is normal experience for neurodivergent people. Like it's, it is tiring when you live in a world that expects you to process information in a certain way that doesn't suit you. Um, and. Yeah, people have different experiences.

Um. Just a quick thing, I, I don't know how helpful this is, but at National Autistic Society do have a page on autistic [00:20:00] fatigue and burnout, um, with some resources. They've got a huge list of resources, including podcasts. At the end of that, if I'll pop a link in the show notes if anyone just wants to learn.

They've also got information for parents and carers and professionals, so I'm sure there's stuff there that, um, would be helpful for churches. But thank you so much for listening. Um, if you have any questions or any thoughts on any of our episodes or any questions to discuss, you can message us @autismtheology on social media, or you can email cat@abdn.ac.uk 

Thank you for listening to the Autism and [00:21:00] Theology Podcast. If you have any questions for us or just want to say hi, please email us@katatadn.ac.uk or find us on Twitter at Autism Theology.