Hi, Neal.
Welcome to the Honest Money
Show. Yeah.
How’s it going?
Good, good.
So, Neal, today,
Neal fisheries joining us.
He's the author of a book
called Modern Chains
The Invisible Shackles
of Economic Slavery.
And before we get into
the book, Neal, I wanted to,
start with you start
let let's learn
more about the man
I can see
at the back of your book.
You're a former army
officer and an age
64 pilot,
which I had to Google
to see what that is.
And you have a background
in art,
literature and philosophy
from the United States
Military Academy
and a master's in philosophy
from Holy Apostles
College and Seminary.
So let's let's
start with you.
I want to know a little bit
about your background
and what motivated
you to write this book.
Yeah.
So, I mean,
this I'm not actually
that interesting
and just, do the likes
philosophy likes to think
about how we think
and critical
thinking and, logic.
That's something
that's always been,
I don't know,
just kind of, of my interest.
And it was drawn me to that.
So, I mean, that's
why I studied,
but it really
wasn't until I, after
I got out of the Army
that, I started
to really have
to contend
with economic reality.
And I quickly
realized, you know, my,
my duties
and responsibilities
as a husband and a father.
It it made me
it made me realize
just that my level
of understanding
about economics and money,
just
it wasn't
sufficient to,
for me
to actually
fulfill my duties.
So being a philosopher,
I just was like,
okay, well,
I'm going to start attacking
this philosophically,
and I need to understand it,
you know, at, at a deep,
you know, metaphysical level.
And, it just, it just took
off from there
because, like,
I mean, I don't know.
Every day you transact,
you know,
you buy things, you,
you know, you use money
to, you know,
get the things that you need
to actualize your needs
to fulfill
your needs in life.
And,
you know,
being able to use that
tool effectively
is, was really important.
And,
I don't know, it's
it's just like it
really becomes this, like,
all consuming
kind of endeavor
where you realize, like,
the money's connected
to every part
of, like, human life,
in some way, shape or form.
And, so it's just like,
it's, it's a bond.
Philosophically,
I was just chewing on,
forever.
And,
the stuff
that I, you know,
came to realize,
about what
economic reality was,
that we're living through,
I mean, it hit me hard,
you know,
when we get into the
the basement
and all that stuff,
but, like,
being a leader in the army,
understanding that,
you know, you have to,
you know, direct action,
to get where you want to go
and, and
and bring people
along with you.
It just kind of like it.
This is like
the fight, you know?
And so I just
I wanted to share
my journey,
from basically
going from, you know,
not very,
I wasn't up to speed
with all the economic stuff.
And then through,
you know, the hours and hours
and the hard work of me
digging through,
you know, this
economic surface
to get at the roots.
I wanted to
I wanted to save people
a little bit of that work,
and and make it easier
for them to unearth
and to to under to grip
those roots themselves.
So that, like,
that's the whole
purpose of the book is to,
to try to,
you know, I, I, like I said,
I was digging
with a shovel like,
this book is
I hope to kind of
create this backhoe
type of a tool
that any person could just
hop into
and start, you know,
get at those,
those roots that what
drives,
our economic reality.
So that's kind of the, the,
the why
I wrote the book and what,
what I hoped
to accomplish with it
is helpful.
Yeah, absolutely.
I was quite surprised
because I've been trying
to get my dad to read
several Bitcoin books.
And finally,
the one that he's reading
is this one.
So it's it's really lovely
that, you know,
there's different,
things that appeal
to different people.
And my dad obviously likes
the philosophical lens.
So that's his
maybe his pathway
into Bitcoin.
But throughout your book,
I was reading,
as I read that,
you were in Iraq twice,
and if especially
like the second
part of the book,
I kind of feel
that your maybe Army
experience comes through
a little bit.
I can even now
speaking to you using words
like duty.
Do you think that
also influenced the book
quite a lot?
Yeah, I did,
because,
I mean,
so being in the military,
you have to,
you know, contend with
and understand
your mortality.
You know what
does it mean to be alive?
What does it mean to die?
And when you
put your life on the line
for something,
you know, I,
you want it to be
bigger than yourself,
you know, like,
that's kind of the step
you have to make logically.
So it's just like, I
understand sacrifice,
and I understand
that pain and suffering,
and it's worth it
when you're
when you're working
towards the right end.
And,
you know,
I did that.
I went and, you know,
I deployed
twice and,
it's like,
what did I risk
my life for?
My country, all these values,
these ideals.
And like, you come back home
and then you start
looking at the
monetary system
and you're like,
I got to provide
and protect my family.
And I got to make sure that,
you know, I'm
doing my part
to give them a better world.
And you realize
that the,
the monetary system
itself, this, you know,
and as we'll get into later.
But like this,
you know,
it's this, this
mechanism of control,
this extractive,
enslaving system.
And it's like
you talk about,
like a cause
bigger than yourself.
Like, what is the fight
like this?
This is the fight.
And it was kind of
came to this point
where it was like,
all right.
I mean, I was willing to die
for my country
and these things, but
what am I willing
to sacrifice
for this fight?
And it just kind of like
it was like, not even,
I don't know,
it just made me feel
so small.
Like, why am I not
at the front?
Why am I not leading
the charge?
Why am I not
trying to give everything
that I have to this cause?
Because this is,
in my opinion,
this is way, way
bigger than than
any of the know
the forever wars
and all that stuff is just.
I mean, it's
a symptom, really.
It's a
symptom of this
monetary system.
So I,
I want to, you know,
in a sense,
like, I,
I need
to do my part
to help destroy Fiat,
because fiat is the thing
that is doing the damage.
It is abusing us all.
And it's the thing
that I do not want
to pass on
to my kids.
Like I don't want my girls
to have to deal with
this problem.
And,
you know, it
kind of as you grow
from like young adolescence
and then you kind of
come into your middle life,
it's like everybody kind of
has that chance
where they're like,
they're they
pass the buck to you.
You know, where it's like,
oh, we'll just
go along with it.
You know,
let's just let's all
just keep pretending
that this is not
this is fine, you know?
And when it comes to me,
like, I just I'm not
I'm not going to pass it on.
I'm not going to say
this is fine.
I'm going to call it
what it is.
I did
the analysis in the book
to make
the philosophical case
for why this is not death.
This is not some,
you know, inefficiency,
economic inefficiency
like this is formal slavery.
It and it
we need to treat it
the exact same,
like in our normal
day to day lives.
You know, your neighbor
had some slaves
that would calls
that would cause
call you to action.
Like that
is something that is,
I mean, everybody recognizes
that as this abhorrent evil.
And you would reject it.
That,
like the money,
like our monetary
system,
it it warrants
that exact same
response, you know, so
it's like a lot of people,
when they hear, oh, slavery.
It's like
they think it's
like hyperbole
or it's
just like some clickbaity.
You know, analogy,
but it's like, no, it's not,
it's not a metaphor.
You know,
when you when,
when you dig down
and you look at
this thing philosophically
and you strip away
all the accidents
and you
look at the essence of it
like, what is its function
like the whole point of
of fiat
being able
to print the money,
you know, from nothing
is to extract the value
out of every dollar,
extract the productive
energy, extract
the work
of another human being,
and then direct it
for your own aims like that.
That is the
that is the essential formal
definition of slavery.
And it's like once
that clicked in my head,
I couldn't unsee it.
I could not unroll that
like I once
I had the category
in my mind,
I could not unroll
that consciousness.
And,
I'm just not I'm
not going to pretend
it's anything different,
you know, like, and that's
what it's for is just to
to make that case like, hey,
you know,
call it what it is,
you know, like,
and you can look at all
these different,
you know, fantasy novels
and stories and stuff.
There's like,
there's power to
naming something,
you know,
you call it by its name.
And, I mean,
I think that's true,
you know, like,
this is slavery.
This is the fight,
this is evil.
And, you know, we
we are the ones
that enable it.
Like, that's the
and I don't know,
like,
when you know,
the problem, like,
I didn't know
anything about bitcoin,
you know,
until I arrived here.
So like, I did all the things
the philosophical analysis,
I was diving into
all the economics
and doing all that stuff.
And I hadn't known
anything about Bitcoin.
So I was like, once
I had that,
once I had this, this
crystal clear,
you know,
understanding,
deeply
philosophical level of what
the problem with the basement
is and why,
that's
when I got to Bitcoin
and I just instantly,
you know,
I recognized it,
like for the solution
that it is,
you know, I didn't,
I didn't calculate,
you know, I'm not making
an economic calculation.
I'm not deriving
some formula.
Just say
Bitcoin is the solution.
It's like it's just a
it's a moral recognition
as a rational,
you know, moral agent
that every human being is
like we
see in those terms
and we recognize it.
So it's like, you know,
you don't have to calculate
when you look at your mother,
you know,
you don't have to calculate
that. That's mom.
You just you recognize it
and it's like,
that's what
I'm trying to
to to ask, you know, like
I want to orange
I want to orange peel
people like a node,
you know,
I want you to just validate
the logic, validate
the problem, validate,
you know,
small amount of work,
but you're still doing it.
But it's just like
you just validate
and you know, but
it's like
I feel that
what we've been doing
in this community a lot is we
we just hit the macro,
we hit people
with the economics.
Oh, invest in this
and in all the rates
and returns and numbers.
And it's just like
we're asking
people to calculate,
you know, so it's like
we're currently orange
peeling like a miner.
It's just brute force.
The this there's
this asymmetry
between
trying to convince
somebody
that Bitcoin is good
through an economic lens,
and trying to
convince somebody
that bitcoin is good
through this moral lens.
And, you know,
think
going back to
this military experience
like I think
strategically tactically like
how do you
how do you want to fight.
How do you,
position yourself,
so that you have
the biggest advantage
and your opponent
has the, the, you know,
the biggest disadvantage,
like you're
trying to maximize
that asymmetry.
And it's like,
that's it.
You know, you,
you hit from the moral
angle,
because it's the least
amount of work
from the highest point
on the battlefield.
And it just like,
you know, it essentially
makes them
it makes any, any opponent,
justify debasement,
justify slavery.
Like, that's an that's
an indefensible position,
you know, so it's just like,
that's that's how
I want to try to
convince people like,
this is how
we should really go about,
you know,
advocacy, Bitcoin advocacy.
I want to
rally the pitchforks
so we can go take down
this fiat beast.
And it's like,
so we have to orange.
But like that's part of
this strategy
is like
we have to get
people on board.
So it's like, yeah, I just
I don't want to do things
the hard way.
And that was like
the hypothesis of this
book was like, hey,
I'm going to leverage
this asymmetry.
You know,
just like
the Bitcoin network does.
I'm going to leverage this
and it's going to
move mountains.
Yeah.
I absolutely loved,
in the beginning
of the book.
You do a great job
of setting the scene.
And throughout your book
are really felt
that you were calling a spade
a spade
and not mincing your words.
You you call it
for what it is,
but you also do
a really good job
of explaining what you mean
so that people who hear
terms like slavery,
which you know, can get
a visceral reaction
in certain people,
you do a
great job of explaining,
what you mean by that.
And, and also you touched
on, like, chattel slavery
and how,
the essence of slavery is
the same no matter what form
or severity takes.
There's like an underlying,
things that
that makes all forms
of slavery,
slavery, essentially.
So do you
maybe want to, like, explain
that a little bit
better than just try to.
Yeah.
Yeah. So I mean,
so philosophically,
like going like this,
I went back to Aristotle
because that's kind of,
you know, what I studied
and what I know
and what I feel
comfortable with and what
a better place to start
than, you know.
You know, he he's
talking about these things
thousands of years ago.
And it's just like,
because he's talking
about human nature
and what is
the nature of reality.
And these things are,
you know, immutable
and kind of in
and of themselves,
like these principles.
So for Aristotle,
when we're going to define
something,
we're, we're
stripping away
all the accidents.
An accident
is something
that could be more or less.
It's not accidental,
as in like a whoopsie,
like a classic
example is like my height,
you know, it's like I'm 511.
I could have grown,
you know, there's no there's
no principle
that could have kept me from
being six feet tall or 510.
How tall
I actually am is an accident
of my being,
you know, or.
But then I have a height,
you know, that is
that is
an immutable principle
that is part of my being so.
Well, when we are
looking at something,
when we're trying to,
you know, define its essence,
we're we're stripping away
anything that could
be different.
And,
when you do that,
with,
we'll just take
chattel slavery, you know,
so it's like when you start
stripping away
all the accidents, you know,
like, oh,
they're in chains or,
oh, they're treated bad
or they're beaten or they're,
you know, they're sold.
They're just property.
Like, these things
can be different.
It's like, well,
what is the thing
that what is the essence of
what is happening?
What's that function?
And the function is
the extraction
of the productive energy
of another for,
you know,
you know, is
it's just like so
okay.
Well, when we look at,
our monetary system,
you know, we have,
this is also helpful
distinguishing here.
So when
we're talking about money,
we often talk about
value and money, and we,
we use them
kind of interchangeably.
And what was really helpful
for me was
this is also going back
to Aristotle,
like differentiating
between the matter
and the form, you know, so
this is kind of his
like idea of high
level morphism,
which is that
all of reality is a composite
of both form and matter.
So what the takeaway of that
is that
if you do not have a high,
low morphic answer
for something,
then you're
not actually addressing it
for how it is in reality,
you're addressing it.
You know,
just some like speculative
fantasy or something
like that, you know,
like it's just in your head.
It's not in reality.
So I need to have
a high, low morphic
answer for everything.
So when
we're talking about money,
we say, okay,
well what's its matter
and what's its form?
Well, the form is like its
immaterial functions.
It's a, you know,
that Aristotle,
thousands of years
ago, was talking
meaning of exchange
Store of value,
unit of account
like those or money
is primary functions
with the medium of exchange
being like its essence.
Like that is the thing
that brings it
into existence.
Like it's
the act of two people
using a object
to transfer value
between themselves.
That creates money, you know?
So it's like money.
Is this weird?
Also kind of
subjective, objective thing,
like it is an object,
that has to have
the potential, the power
to carry out
those monetary functions.
But it takes people
creating it, you know?
So it's like,
if we didn't have any people
on the world, there would
be no money like it.
So it's like that.
And that's something
that kind of confuses people
when they're talking
about money and economics,
because there's a
there's a value
and they'll say dollars
and they're talking
about the object
or they're talking
about the value
that's inside of it.
So it's like,
it was really helpful for me
to just
be able to understand, like,
am I talking about the OP,
the monetary object,
this capsule, this thing
that I can store
energy inside?
Or am I talking about
the creation of that value,
the creation of the
productive work?
You know,
the that
I'm putting into the money?
So it's like
with those two things
kind of together,
it makes it real.
It makes it really easy
to see
what's happening
with the basement.
So I with my
life, with my work,
I am creating value
in the world.
And then I can store
that value
inside that monetary
object.
And it's to preserve
and protect.
And let me transfer it
between, well,
what debasement does
is when they're
creating more monetary
objects, they're empty.
They have no like
that's not
creating more value
in the world,
but they're creating
these monetary objects
that are empty,
but they're treated
equally as to the objects
that are already
in existence.
So what that does
is that equalizes
all of the value
throughout
all those new monetary
objects to.
So it's extracting value
out of the monetary objects
that exist
into the newly created ones.
So like that's, that's the
like the technical mechanism
for why
this is exactly slavery.
It's the extraction,
you know,
like when,
when they debase the money,
they are enslaving
every single
holder of a dollar, you know.
So it's like, well,
how do you
how do you prevent
that from happening?
When you pull the siphon
out from your
monetary object,
you find a new
monetary object
that they can't debase.
And that's,
you know, when
you see, like, oh,
that's the problem.
How do I solve
for debasement?
How do I protect myself
from being debased
from being enslaved
into Bitcoin?
And it's just like, duh.
Like there's like that
is the thing that
and if you can just
that's like
the smallest
little recognition
that like that's
what Bitcoin does.
It prevents
you from being enslaved
or whatever value
I create in the world.
And I put into Bitcoin,
no one can siphon
that out from me.
Like that's mine forever.
That slice of,
you know
the 21 million is
is mine.
Yeah.
No one can take it
unless I give it to them.
Yeah,
like true property
ownership in that sense.
I love the part of your book
where you were talking about,
like,
economics, essentially,
but through
a philosophical lens,
because the various
different books
that I've read from,
like little in olden
and Soviet in a moose,
they talk about,
all of these things, but
from like a different lens.
And I found it
very interesting
to read your take
on things like,
quantitative easing or,
fractional reserve
banking or all of those.
And, and one thing
in particular
that I remember blew my mind
was, the section
where you spoke
about, debt
being both a liability
and an asset,
and that is just like,
I mean, I knew over,
but I never thought about
until I read the book
as deeply as I have.
And it just it's it's
absolutely crazy.
Like, it's wild.
I feel that
this whole century
is a century of gaslighting,
almost.
Yeah.
Like nothing seems.
Yeah, it's it's really hard
to separate truth
from reality.
Sorry. Sorry.
Fiction from reality.
So, yeah,
you on that chapter
where you speak
of the different types
of the different methods
and the different ways that,
the current monetary system
extracts energy from people.
Do you want to explain that
a little bit?
Yeah.
So just to the point of,
like, the,
the liability and asset,
like this idea of
a credit debt
based money,
you know,
it's like all
the money is
lent into existence.
It's, you know, again, it's,
it's it's
created from nothing,
you know, from
this debt obligation.
It's put into the world.
And, you know,
when we think of like a loan
or we think of,
of, of liabilities
and assets,
for me,
I often I would just kind of
like relate it to like some
I have,
you know, $20
and I'm giving it
to my neighbor or
something like that.
Like I think of it
in, in like my terms
at my level,
but like,
that's not
what's happening
at the origin of the dollar.
When they're creating
these things,
it's not like that.
It's it's really important.
Just when you
go back to like, hey,
we're looking let's
follow the value,
follow
the created value.
Because a debt
and a liability is more of
a, it's a directional marker
of saying where
where is value
supposed to flow
like who owes
what value?
When you think of it
as like this directional,
the value
if I, if I'm giving something
to you,
you have it.
But you owe the value
back to me, you know,
like I gave you the value
and you owe it back.
But it's like
when there's
actually no value
at the point of creation.
I've.
I've created no value.
And I'm giving you
a monetary object.
Like there's
no value in that.
So it's like there's
no actual,
there's no actual
like, direction.
Like it doesn't
even make sense.
Like, it's a, like
if you,
you know, in the book,
I try to explain, I was like,
it's a it's
a contradiction,
you know, it's it defies
the principle
of non contradiction
that like, this thing
can be, you know,
both the
liability and an
asset in terms of value
because there's no
value on both sides.
So you can't actually
differentiate
values owed
to one versus the other.
Like the flow of value is
is there is none.
So it's just like but that's
the whole foundational
premise of, of debt
based money.
Because it's, it's
I guess, you know,
when I'm, when I'm
thinking of that example
for myself personally,
I've already assumed
it's been created
and there's value inside.
But at the point of origin,
at the point of creation,
there is no value.
So you can't have it.
You can't have it.
You know, either way.
But I mean, that's a
I only in the book,
I only
touch on to
the economic stuff
and so far
to prove the moral point
like that, this is,
this is not,
this is, you know,
to just even pass off
debt based money as real
is a type of fraud.
You know, it's a I'm
trying to convince
you of a lie to buy
into something
that's not real.
Why does it have value?
Well,
because I said it has value.
You know,
the government said
this is valuable,
so you better value it.
And it's like.
But you didn't
create anything
that you didn't create
any value in the world.
You know,
when the when the fed,
you know, clicked $6 trillion
and injected it
into the economy for Covid,
you know,
before they hit enter
and after they hit enter
the world was the exact same,
you know, like
as far as terms of
how much value,
is in the world,
we just have a whole bunch
of more empty
monetary objects
that, you know,
people are going
to shuffle around
and pretend as if,
you know, it's fine
and it's normal.
You know,
I don't know, it's,
it's kind of silly.
Yeah, it's
interesting because
one of the key,
criticism of Bitcoin
is that it it's,
it produces no real value
and that it doesn't
have any intrinsic
value
and all of those things.
But then when you look
at fiat,
by comparison,
that's the real one
that has no value.
Well, but I'm interested.
You talk about
intrinsic value,
you know, in a section
specifically in there.
That is another thing
I just constantly
heard people get wrong.
Like just
because if you don't underst,
if you're not separating
the monetary object
from the value,
the creation of value,
you really don't
even understand
what intrinsic value
even means.
So when we say
what is the intrinsic
value of money, of any money,
it's like we're looking
at the monetary object
and it's material potency.
It's material power
to fulfill
those monetary functions.
So it's like
it's not an accident
that gold
became the top
performing money.
It's the most
it was the most
powerful money
the world had
because
of its material attributes.
So all the
all the measurables,
the things that can be more
or less.
And this gets into
all the scarcity,
durable transfer
of like that, that list of,
of attributes,
of characteristics
that the material possesses.
You know, those
those are the things
that the power
it's function as money.
So gold was the most
powerful money.
Well, it's like
bitcoin.
So it is it
does have intrinsic value.
You know, like
the idea
that there is no intrinsic
value is kind of silly
because value is tied.
It's basically,
for any domain in your life,
value is the measure
of motion towards
an end.
So it's towards
a purpose.
Whatever
actualize is a function,
actualize is a purpose,
achieves an end.
That is what value measures.
So what does that mean?
It means it takes a person,
a rational agent,
to identify
a function, identify
a purpose.
What is the value
like if a rock rolls down
the hill?
Like is that valuable.
Like, well,
that it just happened.
You know it's not done
for a certain thing.
But if a person
lines up that rock
and like trying to,
I don't know, smash a house
or something, you know, like
when they let that go,
the same thing
can have value to that end.
So without the end,
without the function,
you don't have
the ability like
you can't have value.
So you have this person
identifying the end.
And with money you say,
I want those.
I want to be able to store
my value
that I create in the world.
I want to be able to exchange
it, and I want it to,
you know, be able
to price things
like how much
something is worth.
So, you know,
money is have
intrinsic value,
based on the extent
of how powerful
they are to fulfill
those monetary ends.
So, Bitcoin,
which is maximally potent,
it has maximal potency.
Basically
every single aspect
that you can,
all it's measurables,
you know, so it's like
that's why
Bitcoin is objectively
a more powerful money
than gold.
It's a more powerful money
than she's seashells,
you know, like
it's more powerful money
than the monopoly money in,
you know, the
board games like,
it's the
material characteristics
and attributes that,
that it possesses
objectively
make it better money,
I don't know, come on.
Like hitting
all these different
little things.
So I don't know if people.
Yeah.
That was,
that was one of the
critical things for me
when I was learning
about Bitcoin
and learning about money,
just understanding
the functions of money
and the, the,
the attributes of money
and how Bitcoin
is essentially better
than both fiat and gold.
And once you sort of
say that and understand that
and come to the conclusion,
you can't really think
anything else
like there's otherwise,
yeah, you'd be
denying reality.
But I also want to know,
in your community
because you spoke about,
how you came to Bitcoin.
But in your community,
are there many Bitcoiners
have you had
like luck, orange
pulling people
because
I also wonder as well.
My perception
is that
the easiest way
to orange build
someone is to,
appeal to the,
self-interest.
And once they sort of,
you know, see the gains
that they can
potentially get in Bitcoin,
they might
then be a little bit
more interested
on some of the,
I guess, the revolutionary,
the moral, the philosophical
aspects of, of Bitcoin.
How do you
find that to be.
Yeah.
Like your approach to
do you think. Yeah.
The other way works better.
I, I'm just really curious
to know
that that's,
that's essentially the,
the approach of the book
is to show,
hey, you are already
being abused,
you are enslaved,
you have chains around you,
even though you
may not see it or feel it.
You might be
doing really well.
You might be
some CEO of some,
you know, big, you know,
big company,
and you think you're doing
so awesome.
But it's like,
yeah, you might
you might be winning
this game.
You might be better
than, than everybody else,
but you even
you are still enslaved,
like you are still
being debased.
You know, like this idea
that, you know,
I mean, we we did it.
We effectively,
with debasement
just destroyed savings.
Like, you can't just
save money.
In the book,
I had an example
where it's like, you know,
if you are rummaging through,
you know, your,
your grandmother's house
or something
and you find some
your great, great great
grandfather's treasure map.
And he was like some,
you know, huge, rich,
wealthy, well-off person.
And like,
you go and you find it
and you dig up
the treasure chest
and you open it up
and it's full of cash, like,
that's the most
depressing thing ever,
you know, like $10,000,
you know,
would have been worth,
you know,
I don't know, millions
and millions
and millions of dollars
in today's terms.
But he put it in cash.
So now, you know, you can,
you know, maybe get,
a down payment on
a, used car.
You know, it's
just like,
it's just kind of a no.
You would want something
precious, something
you would want a highly,
highly
powerful monetary object
in that chest.
You know,
if if you
if we fast forward, you know,
200 years or whatever,
and, you know, my great,
great, great or I guess,
my, my,
some kid and I'm the
great, great
great grandfather.
And I buried a Bitcoin
in there for them,
you know,
like that's what they like.
That's the, the dynamic
that you would want
if, you know,
in that
discovery of the treasure
because I was like that's
something that's immutable,
something that is perfect,
that will store and preserve
that value
forever.
And, I mean,
I think that's really hard
for us
to wrap our brains around
because, I mean,
my entire life,
all I've ever known is fiat.
All I've ever known
is debasement,
that the cache just
loses value.
Why does it do it?
Because they make more of it.
You know, it's just.
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's a system
were all born into.
And now we have a tool
where we can really start
to question the system
and opt out of it
if we want to.
And I think see,
I can't see
why why someone wouldn't.
But yeah, like
in your experience, do you,
do you find that
if you take this approach
by you trying to
just really go for the,
the big picture thinking,
and you're
trying to appeal to someone
by helping them understand
that the current system
is really not serving them
the best is that it's been
very like successful for,
you know, orange
pulling people.
I mean, I would say
most people that I sit down
and talk with, you know,
they they actually get it,
they'll see it
and they'll be like,
oh, because like, I'm
not I'm not
creating anything.
I'm just asking them
to open their eyes and look
and use their own rational
faculties and,
and validate
reality themselves.
Like, this is true.
Like what is happening to us.
What this system is, is
just objectively true.
Like, and
I think if you said
that in the book, you know,
like I'm not providing you
any opinion,
I'm not providing you,
a subjective hot take,
you know,
like I'm
just literally laying out
what is.
And I'm asking you
not to trust me,
but just validate yourself.
Tell me where I'm wrong,
look at the logic
and and say,
oh, you made a
mistake here, but
I didn't make a mistake.
This is true.
This is what is happening.
So I,
I start, you know,
with the people
that I love, like,
I care about, like,
I don't want to see them,
be abused.
I don't want to see them
be debased.
I want what's best for them.
So, you know,
trying to talk
to these people,
and it's like,
you know,
I've been successful,
this the
the outcome is,
is kind of an accident.
It's it's really
all I can
control is the message
and how I'm
talking to people.
But whether or not
they get it,
like I can't orange peel
somebody for themselves.
Like they have to do
the work themselves
to understand
what's happening.
They have to
do the proof of work.
But again, like, that's why
I said
the whole point of this book
is to try to maybe
lower the threshold
for how much work
they have to do.
I'm, I'm trying to
to guide I'm
trying to kind of
coax and encourage.
They're like,
hey, let's take this journey
like,
let's let's
think about these things.
You can do this too.
And some people are just not
they don't care.
Like some people are
completely like
it would break
their brain to
to have
lived their entire life
thinking a certain way,
a certain thing,
and they just aren't capable
or willing to,
to consider
that maybe it was wrong.
Like,
and I understand
how hard that is,
because even in my own
like coming to terms
like it's, it's difficult
because it's like
it's something
that I don't want to look at.
I don't want to
look at the reality.
I don't want to say,
wow, I'm actually getting
like siphoned out.
I'm being
they're extracting,
I'm working my my ass off
and they're just
taking it from me.
You know,
it makes me feel small.
It makes me feel,
you know, just
I mean, it's not good.
It's not pleasant,
you know, but it's like,
that's kind of the
the motivating
and encouraging thing,
though, is
because I allow that
to happen,
you know,
it means I can
I also have the power
to stop it.
And,
I think that's that's
really cool.
So I'm just
I'm trying to advocate,
you know,
to the people
that are near and dear
to me, and,
you know,
with writing
this book was my,
you know, I didn't want to
just show up
to the fight with nothing,
you know, like,
I wrote this book to arm
myself,
to try to help arm
other people
with the moral language,
to talk about Bitcoin
in a different way.
And, you know, so now I'm,
I'm getting involved,
you know,
with, in the local community
the go
to some bitcoin meetups.
You know we'll be talking
you know
at the end of the month
at our local
we'll do a presentation
and like
my, my idea is
kind of just
most people
that have gotten bitcoin
have gotten it
through the macro
economic arguments.
And I think that the like
the number of people
that are left
that could be persuaded
that way are basically
like put a different way.
Everybody
that could get bitcoin
through the economics
probably already has,
you know, so it's like,
how do we service
all the rest
of the people, you know,
like bitcoins
for anybody?
Maybe not for everyone
because you have to want it.
But you know,
all those other people
that just don't
get the economics, like
when they start
the because
and it makes sense why
somebody would have that
like deer in the headlight
kind of prey reaction.
Like here you are
talking to me about something
I know very little about.
I'm going to
just not move,
you know,
like I'm going to not move.
Pretend I don't know,
not take any action.
Because it's confusing.
I don't like
I think maybe you're
just trying to,
you know, scam me.
Maybe you're trying to
get me down, you know, a road
where you can take advantage
of me.
Like I understand people's,
adversity
or they're not
their hesitation
to someone
trying to sell them
on Bitcoin.
You know, it's like,
I'm not asking.
I'm not asking anybody.
I'm not selling anything.
I'm not asking
anybody to trust me.
I'm just
trying to
walk them
through the same steps
so that they'll see
and understand themselves.
So I don't know.
We'll see where this goes.
I think
it's again,
like I,
I couldn't
write another
Bitcoin standard
because it's already
been written.
And if I wrote the Bitcoin
standard two,
it would just be
a really crappy book.
You know, like the world
doesn't need that book.
But, you know,
no one's made
just the strict
moral case yet.
Like why this is at,
you know, at that level.
So it's just like, it's
what I could offer
to the fight, you know, it's
what I do.
I I'm the philosopher.
I'm the moral philosopher.
So it's like,
I'm just going to do
moral philosophy
for Bitcoin and,
and see if,
if it's something that, that
people want or use.
Yeah.
And the book
is so recent as well.
Like I just realized
like, it's
pretty much hot off the press
because in the book
you mentioned,
the big beautiful
bill had already been passed.
So that's how
annuities, right?
Like it's,
and that
was one of the
last little ads,
like I have to add it.
It's it's too perfect.
It just proves
just how absurd like,
this is what we're
literally doing.
And we're supposed
to just pretend
that it's fine.
It's just
laughable.
It's laughably absurd.
What we,
What we pass off
as normal,
what we pretend is like.
Okay, it's like, no,
think about it
for five seconds.
Like, this is.
This is insane.
This is absurd.
And I'm just not going to go.
I'm not going to go
along like you're asking me
to play along,
and I can't.
I cannot do it.
I will not. Yeah.
One of the reasons
that I started my podcast was
because I do
want to bring that,
early mainstream
majority on the journey
and help them understand
the benefits of Bitcoin
and just
look at it
a little bit
more deeply because
everyone's heard of it.
Everyone already
has an impression
in their mind
as to what it is
and what what
the point of it is.
But,
you know,
if we take 100 people,
I think both you and
I can agree that about
97 would not
really understand
or have have the right
understanding of what
Bitcoin actually is.
So there's
a lot of opportunity
to bring people
on the journey and always
wonder as well.
I don't know
if you've recently seen
and this isn't
the most scientific thing.
Whether you've seen
the Myers-Briggs
personality test
among Bitcoiners
and then so obviously
like science aside,
I know in psychology
that particular test
is not that
very well respected.
Like not as much
as the big five.
But there is an element
of truth to it.
Like we can all
read it
and be like, okay,
I can sort of see why
someone who's more intuitive
in abstract thinking and,
thinks about
the possibilities
might be more likely
to adopt Bitcoin.
But I also got very curious
about the the majority of
people who
there's no
there's like zero exposure
to to Bitcoin.
I got curious
about those personalities
and I looked into them
a little bit more.
And as you can imagine,
they are people
who value stability,
they value tradition,
they value
known systems.
And something
that's, you know,
been trialed and tested
for for many, many years.
And it's not that they can't
be come
on the journey
of Bitcoin,
but they really need
to understand that,
a lot better before
they just willy
nilly accept it.
And I've recently
also been
speaking to this girl
who is is one of those,
I think, I guess f-j,
personality type.
And she studied Bitcoin
for six years
before ever
getting into it.
So that just goes
to show how,
cautious she is to big
changes.
And,
I guess we'll
face my question going here.
I also wonder
if if there's,
I forgot what the question
was going to be.
Neil.
First. Fine.
I was thinking like,
so in the book,
one of the things
when I was doing
kind of researching
the slavery aspects of AI,
I really kind of,
was captivated
by Frederick Douglass
because he was a slave
and he lived it.
That was his life.
And he wrote about it, too,
and he talked about this,
you know, this kind of
psychological distinction
between,
you know, the house slave
and the field slave.
And I love that thought.
And I think that you're
what you're explaining
is that exact same dynamic.
You know, people,
some people
tend towards just
stability and comfort.
They don't want any change.
And it's like, you know, the
I mean, the comfort
like it is to, to
to break free
from your chains
to, to escape
slavery is a,
is a bold move.
It is.
You know,
it's you're
thrusting yourself
into the unknown,
into the wild
in a kind of a sense.
And it's that
unknown is scary.
And, you know,
it does take
a certain type
of person to really want it
and to just go for it.
And another one
takes a little bit
more coaxing, but it's like,
you know,
I can't I can't
remember the exact quote,
but the essence of
what he was talking about
was like, you know,
the the person
that knows the lash,
you know,
like they,
they understand the truth
of their condition,
you know,
with like a searing clarity.
Whereas like
the comfortable house slave,
you know, that gets to eat
at the master's table
and gets to sleep
in a nice bed like
they might be a little bit
more like,
oh, this is a pretty good
deal.
Like, I'm okay with this,
you know, I'm
within a level of comfort.
They're given a
level of status
that, actually
makes them,
you know, for Douglass, like,
they were like some of the
the best enforcers
of the slavery.
You know, like
they would defend the master.
They would, you know,
when someone would get
a little out of line,
they would be the first
to pounce and say, hey,
don't rock the boat like.
And it's like
we see those same dynamics
playing out today.
And it's just like, again,
I think
that's not an accident.
You know?
It's like it's
the same extractive system.
Some people intuit it
like something's off.
Some people really get it.
Then like,
I can't even get ahead.
I can't,
save any money
to get, a down payment
for a house
or any of these, like,
you know,
can't afford a family.
I can't afford anything.
Like, they feel it
in a very real way.
And those are probably
the people
that are the first
to really like.
Yeah, I want to get out
of this thing, you know, but
I, I don't
I don't want to,
like even those
that kind of enforce
this system today
and and defend it.
It's like
I still feel for them
because, yeah,
they are equally as enslaved.
They're equally,
you know,
victims,
so it's like,
I just don't want to pretend
like they don't matter
and just leave them behind.
Like,
one of the things
that I do get
and I understand is like, it,
we all exist
in this reality together,
you know,
we live in
and we share this
concurrent moment of
the present.
And we exist in it.
And that shared
connection,
you know, as human beings,
I can't deny that.
And I understand
that.
I, I need
I need everybody else to
just as like I am
part of this, you know,
going back to this kind
of high, low morphic
guilt part and whole like,
yes, I am an an individual,
but I
also am a member of society.
I also am a member
of this collective,
you know, human race.
And it's just like
putting those things
together.
You know,
it makes me care
about my fellow man.
It makes me care
and have empathy towards
you know, their
suffering, too, and
and understanding
that, like,
if I it's one thing for me
just to to exit stage left
and take care of myself
in the short term.
But if I'm really going
to want to give my daughters
a, a world
without fiat,
like I have to
help them out too, you know?
Because as long as this
Fiat monster
is, is fed enough energy
and it keeps itself
churning and going, like
I really can't rest.
So,
that's that's why
I really do want to help
in the bitcoiners
that have it, like,
I, I probably wouldn't
have got it earlier,
you know, like, I,
I needed to have all,
all of my life experience
and I needed to have,
you know,
my philosophical training
and for me to do that
proof of work
to where when I did see
it, I could get it,
you know, like
if I would have
got introduced to Bitcoin
five years ago, ten
years ago, I mean,
I would
bet a lot of money
that I probably wouldn't
have got it.
I probably would have
sloughed it off
as it was stupid or dumb
or a scam or something
like I would have fallen
those same
tripped over
those same obstacles.
And I'm grateful
that all the people who came
before me
kind of helped
clear that path.
So, you know,
when I did start
looking at it,
I could see it clearly.
I want to Orangeville people.
I wanted to at least
give them the opportunity
to say no.
You know,
maybe not like
I ask,
I try to Orangefield
by asking questions.
I really don't
want to tell people things,
because I want them
to walk themselves
through the logic.
And, you know, even
if they don't have a,
even if I ask
a question
and it just like
the tiniest little seed
kind of falls in that crack
and they don't get it
right away.
And I may never
see them again, but maybe
that's like
the little thing the
that they're like,
wait a second.
Like,
how do how does that work?
That does
that doesn't make sense.
You know, maybe they
it turns around
in their brain for,
you know, a year
or two years,
it's like eventually
that little seed,
when it sprouts, like,
it can break that
rock, you know, it
can bust that crack
right open
and then they'll be ready
for it.
So yeah,
I, I don't
I don't measure success.
By how many people
are actually orange pilled.
It's just,
am I putting
the right message out
that maybe,
you know,
I take care of
the input, and,
the outcomes
will take care of themselves.
Yeah, I, I
love the analogy
between the house slave
in the field slave,
because you kind of see
those dynamics play out
in all sorts of different
environments, even at work,
you know, people
who are close
to sort of senior management,
they might think
that they, yeah,
have more privilege
and illusion of privilege.
And same thing.
Yeah, happened
during Covid as well.
A lot of people,
you know, that that
were behind the vaccine
mandates at work.
Witness didn't
necessarily
think it was the morally
right thing to do, but
they went along
with it as well.
And unfortunately, a lot,
a lot of people
lost their job.
But what I want to go back
to is like,
Bitcoin in my mind,
aligns with most
people's core values.
You know, if you speak to the
average person on the street,
everyone wants to live
in the world where,
people don't have to live
paycheck to paycheck,
where people don't
have to think that,
you know,
working
more is not necessarily
going to lead
to a better life,
which is very much the case.
I read somewhere a statistic
that over 50% people
believe that,
so it really aligns
with most people's values.
And, and I guess that journey
to help people on understand
how they can get, how
we can get back to a system
where you can afford
to feed
a whole family
on a single income
without, you
know, necessarily
having mortgage
stress and financial stress
that that we
experienced today
in Australia.
But you know
who's particularly bad now?
People who are earning over
like 200,000
and don't have any kids
in a double income,
have mortgage stress.
So it's really, concerning
to think about
how everyone else,
is living
in surviving out there.
Yeah.
The, the thing that I
kind of
guess goes back to
Aristotle is like,
so if you,
if you read
all of basically,
Aristotle, what he has to say
on economics, it's, it's
actually not that much
because he's, he's
writing it in the ethics.
For Aristotle
understands that
without ethics,
without moral,
a moral foundation
for justice,
you can't have an economy.
No one will ever exchange
anything with them,
with another person
if it's unfair,
like so.
You have to presuppose
this ethical fairness
and like so what?
What does that mean?
It's like so
economics
is driven
by the
by the ethics.
Like the ethics
comes before the economics.
So if you understand
the ethics behind the money
behind exchange
like that,
that's going to tell you
what type of economic fruit
will come
from that ethical tree.
So it's like
when when we come at it
from just economics
and we divorce.
Because a
lot of times people,
this is my problem
with the whole idea
of a broken money.
Right?
I understand why
that is a powerful,
you know,
it's powerful rhetoric
because it grips
really hard on this,
like intuition
that something is off,
you know, like something,
something bad is happening
with the money.
So we want to say it's broken
and it's like,
okay, well,
that that makes sense
from a purely economic
like surface
level analysis.
But the problem with that
is if the money is broken,
that that means
we're severing it
from from ethics.
It's just this amoral tool
that sits there
and it's but it's like
the money is it's
literally between two people.
It's two people or what
create the money
in the first place.
It's forming
how people connect
with each other
on a societal level.
Like,
I mean, Aristotle
even says this like,
that's the money
is essentially the glue
that kind of holds it.
It forms the bonds.
So it's like, well,
what is the nature
of how we are connected?
Are we connected through,
you know, this ethical,
cooperative relationship
or are we connected
through this,
you know,
extractive,
coercive
controlling mechanism.
And it's like, so
like money is a tool.
It is either a tool that
that creates
a healthy relationship
or a, you know,
in like link,
like I
asked, I it's just,
you know, if I chain you
to a plow,
you know,
are those chains
broken?
It's like, no, they're not
they're fulfilling
their function like that
money is fulfilling
its function as as forming
the bonds
of how we how we relate
and connect to each other.
So I don't want to sever
the moral,
the moral
from the macro.
I don't want to
sever the ethics
from the economics,
because the ethics
is actually
what is creating
the economics.
So it's like
you look at the price chart
of Bitcoin
and it's all crazy
and it's everywhere.
But you look at the log log,
you know, and it's just this
45 degree line.
And the economist is like
I don't know how to explain
that.
Like that's
such a odd phenomenon.
Like how is it
that this,
that Bitcoin
is this crazy
ultra performing asset.
And it's like,
that's a really complicated,
answer
if you're trying to model
the what
and trying to explain it
away that way.
But when you
understand the ethics
and you say, oh,
valuable, my,
ethical money
is more valuable
than unethical money,
that's it.
That's literally why.
So if you want to know
the why to the price action,
like why does it perform
the way it is?
Well, when you understand
the ethics,
you don't have to care.
Like you
don't have to
care about the macro
if you understand the moral.
So it's like
I'm trying to keep it
as simple as possible
so that it hits
the broadest range
of all people
so that if they can,
if they can,
you don't have to understand
any of the models.
You don't have to understand
CPI and,
and all these different rates
and all this craziness like
if you understand that it
and that's enough
to get you into Bitcoin.
Like you can start
your journey,
you can save yourself,
you can shield yourself
from debasement.
And like that's to me
that's success.
You know, I care more about
onboarding
a million families
than I care
about million dollar bitcoin
you know and it
and if you understand
the relationship
you were even like oh
the former drives the latter.
And even the amount of nodes
we have
you know,
we have like
20 some thousand nodes.
There's 8 billion people
in the world.
If we were
able to,
you know, add
a million nodes,
20,000
just seems so small.
What kind of a message
does that even send?
You know, it's like it's
empowering the individual to
to reclaim their dignity
as a moral agent,
to assert themselves,
you know, as a, as a,
as the actual force
that they
are, in this world.
And you can do that
with Bitcoin by reclaiming
your monetary sovereignty,
you're reclaiming
your political sovereignty.
You know, you're
you're you're
you're even reclaiming
your rational sovereignty.
You're saying,
I see the world
for what it is,
and I'm not going to buy
your, your, your fantasy
little Lala story that
that value
comes from nothing.
You know, I, I just,
I reject it
whole whole cloth,
you know,
like that's in the book.
I talk about
monetary gnosticism
as like the idea that it's
just some magical spell,
this speculative fantasy.
And if I just
go along with it
and believe it,
like I can
change the actual structure
of reality.
And it's like, no,
you can't like that's,
that's that's not
how reality works.
Reality is
what it is.
I am what,
you know, a human being.
I am a human object.
In reality, I have
a, you know, a
subjective experience,
my consciousness.
And it's like
that human object
with this subjective
consciousness together is
what is the whole answer
of what it is for me
as a human being.
I'm just like,
I don't know, it's
just kind of
for someone to say,
you are not that
and ask me
to go along with it is just,
it's beyond the pale,
to just
reject it.
Yeah, absolutely.
This is another reason
why I love
Austrian economics as well,
because I feel like
it's based on reality.
But I wanted to.
I just remembered
something else
as you were speaking.
Another part that I really,
really liked in your book
was when you were
talking about the fed
and the section
where you were
explaining that
it doesn't matter
what the intention
was behind
the design of the system,
which again,
I love how you said it.
It's not broken.
It's working exactly
as it's designed.
So it's working
perfectly well.
But,
do you want to explain
a little bit about that?
What you mean like
when you said, like,
outcomes
are the same regardless
of what the intention is?
Yeah.
I love that part.
Yeah.
I mean, so, like,
and this again, this is,
you know,
all this is coming
from this, like,
deep philosophical,
you know, foundation,
in, Aquinas talks about this
where it's just like,
you know,
what are we as a human being?
What are we
capable of judging?
You know, and we
we judge observable,
you know, action.
We judge observable reality.
I can't it
he says it's not
that we're bad at it.
We're incapable
of judging
the hidden interior.
So, like,
I can't judge
what you're thinking.
I can't judge
what you're feeling.
I can't judge
why you're doing
the things you're doing.
I can just judge
your actual
observable behavior.
Like what?
What what
is actually happening
in reality?
That's what I have access to.
So a lot of times
when we're talking about
the monetary system,
it's like, oh, well,
we have to do this
because, you know,
we're trying to help
everybody out.
You know, we have to
we have to print the money,
because the whole thing
would crash down.
And we're really doing it
to help people.
And it's like,
you know,
I don't care
if you're
trying to help people.
I don't care about
your intentions.
You might be
the most benevolent
good hearted
person in the world,
but what you're doing
is evil.
What you're doing
is enslaving people.
You are extracting
objectively the value
people put into their money,
and that you know it
because you can take it
the other side too.
You could say,
oh well, you're
really sinister.
You're the evil genius,
and you created this
perfect mechanism
to, you know,
extract all the wealth
and value from the world
just for you.
It's like, you know,
some people might argue
that and say,
oh, you're evil.
And for that,
for your intentions.
And it's like,
or you can say, oh,
I'm good because I'm trying.
It's like, just push
all that off the table.
You know, just look at
objectively
what's happening,
you know, like that's
why in the book I started off
it just like
everything
is to answer this question
about what is debasement?
What's happening technically,
what's happening morally
throughout the whole book.
Like that's the
that's that's the one
central thing that everything
is feeding into.
And at the end,
you know, answer
that question
for yourself honestly.
And if you don't understand,
keep digging.
You know, keep doing.
I try to show,
you know,
and provide you
with enough stuff
that you can validate
and come up with your own
answer to that.
But like,
if you
can't answer that question
and you just brush
it off as like,
yeah, whatever, it doesn't
matter, you know?
Well, you're
literally just
that comfortable house slave
denying, you know,
what's being like.
You're seeing
everyone in the field
get abused
and, you know,
kind of in your heart
that it's bad.
And you, you just
you don't want to look at it.
You can't
acknowledge it, man,
for whatever reason,
you know, it doesn't matter.
But like that's
what you're doing.
If you if you look away
from that question
and you don't answer
that honestly,
you are looking
away from the abuse.
Yeah,
yeah.
Very true.
Do you
have any other books
on the horizon, or did you
any really
ever plan to write one?
I mean, it's kind of funny.
It was like,
I didn't really want, like,
I didn't
want to write this book.
You know, I
this is not a fun.
This was not a fun.
Like, yay!
I'm writing this.
You know, this this fun
loving, awesome book is like,
no, this is like,
it's heavy
and it's hard.
This is the book that I
had to write because this is,
it just like
once I saw it,
I had to take action,
and this is how I could
contribute it.
But I, just
with talking
with my publisher,
you know,
we started getting talk
about, like, The Wizard of Oz
and how, like,
that kind of
monetary allegory,
you know,
was how
it correlated to today
and how it didn't.
And it was just like,
he was like, well,
just do that.
You know,
update the allegory,
you know, so,
I, I have the, the,
the allegorical companion
to, To Modern Chains,
which is this basically
the Wizard of Oz plus
modern chains together.
But, I mean, it's,
that's the fun,
light, lighthearted,
kind of take, but it's like,
it's kind of funny
because when you're
doing an allegory
of an allegory,
I mean, it's
it it it it invites laughter
because it shows
how absurd
things are
that we take serious,
but they're the same.
And it's like, I don't know.
So that
that kind of was this the
the last little side
piece, there, but
I don't know.
I'm, I'm going to just
this is my fight
now, like,
this is what I'm doing.
Until until it's done.
I mean, even if
I don't see the end,
the end of this fight
like that, this is the fight
that's bigger than myself.
That's worth it.
And it's worth all my effort
and all my energy
and all my time.
You know, because,
you know, every day
when I was, was writing,
you know, I'm thinking like,
this is for my kids.
This is for my grandchildren
that aren't even born yet.
Like this.
This is for like,
that's why I'm doing this.
Because I have to
take action today.
Like, this is my,
you know,
I'm not even my.
This is our burden.
Like says, I said,
you know, we
we do share this moment.
We all are in this together.
And this is the fight.
So we either come
together and,
you know, in fiat,
I mean, it sounds such
like a lofty,
like stupid thing,
but it's like,
that's why
I'm so grateful for Bitcoin,
because we actually
have a tool
that is designed to in fiat.
So it's like
it just takes us
picking it up
and wielding it.
And you know,
in the Army,
you know, you take
a, an 18 year old kid
and you train them
to be proficient
with weapons
systems
within a squad,
working with others,
employing tactics to
to achieve victory.
And it's like, we'll just
replicate that, like this.
It's the same type of fight.
Like,
how can we take anybody,
you know,
show them, hey, here,
look at react,
look at reality,
look at your life.
Look at where you want to go.
Here's a tool that
will really help you,
you know, achieve those ends.
Get proficient with it.
You know, understand
self-custody understand
running a node.
Understand all these things
and then
and then do it,
you know, and
kind of back
to what you're saying about,
you know,
even if we're not
advocating this through,
if we're not orange
peeling people
through the message,
living
a good life
like that
is going to draw attention
to, you know, like,
what are all those free
people doing over there?
They look like they're,
you know,
they're doing really well.
They they love life.
They're having kids.
They're having families.
They're having you know,
they're building communities,
like they're
filling their lives
full of meaning and purpose.
And I'm sitting
over here in fiat land
getting, you know, debased,
miserable,
like I'm going to start.
Well, what what do they got
that I don't like, you know.
So it's like even
even if they're not
getting it
through the message
just by like by living
a good life
that will attract others
to start paying attention.
Yeah.
You're so right about that.
I have, good friends
that have retired
thanks to Bitcoin.
And they still,
I think, like in their late
30s potentially,
I don't know, the real age.
But yeah,
they, they've retired.
They,
they're having a family.
And you know, I can't help
but think how lucky
those kids
are to have
two parents at home.
Thanks to bitcoin.
So, so yeah.
Is, is,
trying to draw
as many people out
so they can tell
their stories as possible
out of the community.
So that other
people can see,
you know,
what is it, Bitcoin?
How do they live their lives?
It's probably not
what most people think.
Most people
might think that
a Bitcoin, or is
someone who's into crypto
wants to get massive
gains, wants to, you know,
essentially get more fiat.
And and it's like, no,
no, no,
Bitcoin is a trying to have
less fiat.
That's the whole point.
So yeah, I'm kind of
not trying to do too
in the book was show
how the
the costs,
the consequences of fiat
are way beyond
just the monetary, economic,
social capital.
That is a huge,
I think you say in the book,
I mean, social capital
is actually
the most sovereign
of all wealth,
like the relationships
you have in your life
are the most important
things beyond even money.
It's like a trait
kind of saying that
people will say,
but it is true.
Like true joy and happiness
does come through
other people.
And having
those relationships
and doing things
for others, you know?
And when you have
both parents, you know,
working 80 hours a week,
throwing their
kids in daycare,
they tuck them in,
you know,
at night for five seconds,
and then they throw them off.
You know, it's like,
I don't even know
my neighbors.
I can't help somebody
across the street,
you know that,
they're moving.
I don't have time
to help them
unload their truck
because it's like I'm
just on this rat
wheel, you know?
I'm just.
I'm just running
my little Fiat race,
and,
like,
I have time for nothing else.
Like, just.
And then it's like,
why is society crumbling?
Why is there
this meaningless crisis?
Like, why does everyone,
you know,
on all these antidepressants
and all these?
It's like you can just like
those are the
real consequences.
Fiat doesn't
just drain the value
from the money.
In doing so.
It also just like
brushes
your soul.
It just degrades
your human dignity.
It makes you,
I think
was the quote
in the book, it's like
it makes you
less than what you are,
and it keeps you
from becoming
what you ought to be.
You know,
it's like it's kind of a two
fold thing, like it's
this oppressive weight
and it's like, that sucks
in and of itself, that abuse.
But what's even worse
is that, like,
prevents you
from actually
getting anywhere,
and being somebody in
somebody else's life
that's like that,
like when you, when you,
when I wrap my head around
just the enormity
of the abuses.
Like it,
it kills me
like I it,
I mean,
if that doesn't fire you
up about like, hey,
this is something worth
my time and energy
to fight and combat this.
And it's like, I don't think
it's like,
are you even human?
Like, I don't even know, like
it's that type
of a question, like,
are it lit a fire in me?
It actualized me
and it challenged me
to become
more than I was.
And,
you know, so I'm.
I'm very blessed.
I'm blessed to
for that
reason.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm fired up.
My mom keeps
telling me to fire down
because she's like,
you're burning out
because of this cause.
But I'm like, it's
that important to me
because I can see,
how it's ruined.
Not just our economy,
but our relationships.
It ultimately incentivizes
nihilistic behavior
in people.
And and that's what.
Yeah, I don't
I just want to go back
to a world we once had.
With the technology
that we have today.
But you have those,
you know,
communities restored,
relationships restored,
the nuclear family restored
because, yeah,
it incentivizes
people not to have children,
not have relationships.
It's yeah, the
I can't it's so funny
because you're right
in saying that
once you see it,
you can't unsee it.
So now when I'm not,
when I'm reading a book
that has nothing to do with
Bitcoin
are related back
to central banking somehow,
and you can just see
so many different.
Like I was reading a book,
on narcissism
of all things and,
and I found a
pathway to central banking
because one of the causes
of narcissistic behavior
in people is,
if you
if you have a child
that's, you know,
I guess that
their nature is,
they quite needy
because some kids
are an idiot and others
some cry more,
some, you know,
need more time
to settle down.
And you combine that
with a parent
that's absent or,
neglectful,
then that is
like the perfect
breeding ground
for narcissistic behavior.
And if we have a society
where parents,
not as present,
that's potentially
going to breed
more narcissistic children,
and that's like, you just
it's it's amazing.
I relate everything back to,
money printing essentially.
Yeah.
It's it's
creating these little
these bad feedback loops.
It's just like it
just gets worse
and worse until,
you know,
like reality
will reassert itself.
Like we can play these games
of Imagination Land.
It until reality
reasserts itself
when we smack into it
and it
it's going to hurt like,
you know,
the illusion can't hold
off reality forever.
It's just like, I don't know,
I totally,
completely resonate
with like, like what enables
the system is
just going along with this.
And when you,
it kind of burns
the candle from both ends
as like
when you think of
yourself as less than,
you know, this dignified,
human, rational moral agent
and you don't think
you have any power
and you don't think
you have any say,
and you think your
choices don't matter,
and you just have.
You're just this floppy sail
and the wind
getting blown around
like, well,
you're you're
easily manipulated,
like so it's like
the system
degrades you in that way.
And then it makes you easier
and easier to control
and to keep,
to keep moving
in that same,
that same line.
So it's like
it's really just
breaking out of it
and seeing yourself
for what you are,
you know, understanding
what a human being is,
understanding why
rationality and free
will put together
create this like
immense dignity
within you
and that you are worth it.
You are,
even, even
like you
are worth the effort.
Like you talked
about burning out.
And it's like the thing
that I've experienced with
this is
this has been more energizing
than anything.
Like,
I have been burnt out at work
where the drudgery
and you have to just
pick yourself up
and drag yourself in like,
that's horrible.
I don't have to do that
when I'm working on
these projects.
My output is
the I've
been more productive
in in these endeavors
than anything I've ever done.
And it just is like,
you know, it's
the positive feedback loop
in the
in the other direction.
The success.
I know,
you see, the more
I work, the harder
I work,
the more
the the more I see,
accomplished.
It just fuels me even more.
So, you know,
I, I, I don't
I hope I don't burnout
in that sense.
Yeah.
It's a different kind of,
you know,
it's a different kind of
burnout
because I'm not
burning out like,
I was burning out in fiat
because I felt like
a sense of hopelessness.
And and you know what?
What is the purpose of
all of this?
It's more burning out
from just a constant
cell, like,
feeling of,
am I doing enough?
Am I doing enough?
And and just
trying just.
Yeah, I spend a lot of time,
even, like, on social media,
trying to create content,
sometimes hours
to post something
that I think
might help people, but
then it doesn't really
get much engagement,
but it just goes to show
as well
how early we are in this,
not that many conversations
out there that are trying to,
I guess,
tell this story that I am
a lot of Bitcoin
related content out
there is about price
and about, yeah,
some macro
things.
I'm trying to,
I guess, put a more feminine
spin on it.
Talk about,
a talk about price as well,
because obviously that's
what people appeal to.
But I also,
I try to focus on
the foundations more,
I try to focus on the
why I'm like,
doing all sorts of things,
testing what works,
sometimes even using humor.
Like we spoke about before.
Humor can be very
powerful tool
to a point,
to the absurdity
of something.
So I can't wait
for your second book.
I think that's going to be
a really awesome read.
Do you, do you
do you have a date as to
when that might get it
released, or is it
it was like last week
or something like that.
Well, ready.
Okay.
So, where can we
can we purchase it
already like on Amazon?
Yeah.
So I mean,
everything that I do
is, is on modern chains.com.
Like that's kind of my,
my hub.
So anything
anything that's related to me
how to find me,
anything that I'm doing
it will be on on
modern chains.com.
Just kind of the,
the one stop shop
for for anything
if you're interested.
You know.
And to me
I don't it's like
if I could give everybody
in the world modern chains.
I would like the message,
like spreading the message
is the important part.
But it's kind of funny.
Like,
the ideas
could be the exact same.
But if you don't
put them in a book,
it's like people don't think
it's like it gives it
like a level of legitimacy
that maybe someone
will consider, you know?
But if you don't have a book,
you're just kind of
some lunatic, you know,
stating some crazy stuff
or whatever.
Like they just is a reason
for someone to blow you off,
you know?
But yeah, well,
we're all crazy until.
Yeah, it's it's never popular
to be right too
soon or too early.
But I, Yeah,
I ultimately believe that
truth prevails and and cannot
be suppressed for too long.
No, I said reality
reasserts itself.
That's the
that's the one thing
that all history, proves.
Yeah, absolutely.
And then
as a final question,
do you have any plans to come
to Australia
with your family?
Not not currently,
no, but no. Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, that that would be
a bucket list type of thing.
Like if,
I definitely like
that would just
be really cool.
A cool trip, you know?
Yeah.
It's a really
beautiful place.
I highly recommend it.
If you do come.
I would recommend that
you guys come around March.
That's the bit
of a Bitcoin season
in Australia.
We have,
Bitcoin alive in March
and then also in Victoria.
In Beechworth there's a
there's a Bitcoin Bush bash.
And that's a very popular
sort of grassroots event.
And they both
happen in March.
So when we
get international guests
they tend to go to both.
And then I also
very much recommend
coming up.
Driving up to Byron
and yeah,
the eastern states
are really, really beautiful.
So lucky to live here.
So hopefully you guys will
come one day.
Yeah.
If I could just say
one last final thing,
I'd like to.
The bitcoiners,
you know, that that loves
the macro
and is drawn to that.
And that's your thing.
Like I got no issue with,
with that type of approach.
And that does work
for some people.
But I would just offer you
to just say, you know,
at least
be interested
enough in the moral stuff
so you can put it in
your toolkit, you know,
so you have it, you know,
if you're trying to
talk to
your uncle at Thanksgiving
and they're just
none of the economic stuff
that you love
is getting through you know,
just just hit him with some
hit him
with some moral stuff,
you know,
just just ask him
those moral questions.
Hey, what's
your answer to these things?
And,
you know, again,
even if nothing happens
at the table,
maybe it just plants to seed
just enough that, like,
it could,
get through to him
at the end.
Yeah.
You just reminded me
of one more thing.
In the book,
you write towards the end,
like, questions
that you can ask
your politicians
to hold them accountable,
for why they perpetuate
this system.
And, and I was reading them
and, like,
they're great
questions to ask, but
I feel like in Australia,
we're so far behind
the US.
I know
you guys have politicians
that are bitcoiners.
They really understand,
and I watch,
I watch, they talks and
and they really understand
and they fall back
fully behind it.
Some obviously
more than others.
But in Australia
we don't really
have a single one,
maybe like the
Libertarian Party
understands Bitcoin,
but other than that, all the,
you know,
the two big parties,
we're not there yet
and and I can even like
I was just laughing
a little bit
because I imagine
if we did ask them
these questions
that would just like
blank out.
Yeah,
I mean, it, it
it makes them make
the implicit explicit.
It outs them
as either,
oh, I
actually understand
the problem.
And then I'll take action or
I don't know what
the problem is
or I'm complicit.
You know, it it
it makes them
show their hand.
And when you have
when you ask the questions
in such a way, like you're
really trying to
the nature of a politician
is to slip out of an answer.
So you're trying to paint
them into the corner
and make them address it.
It's like
politicians are still
they're out
for their own
self-interest, too, you know?
So when the people demand
these things,
a crafty politician
will see that market
opportunity
and take advantage of it.
Like even if they're not
a bitcoiners,
they'll say
all the people want
Bitcoin.
I'll be that
Bitcoin politician.
We see that all the time.
You know
the pandering.
And it's like,
well the thing is, is
you can get them
you can get them to
go down that road.
And then it's it's
holding them to account
for the action.
Like leadership
is all about
delivering results.
And just because you say
the thing
and you brief it right
and it's all
politically correct.
You know, again,
I don't
care about your intention.
I don't care what you are
trying to do.
What are you delivering?
What is the proof of work?
You know,
and I look
I look
out at what,
know, the political, but
the political fruit
that our politicians
have been delivering to us.
And it's like it just,
all they've
delivered is worthy of our,
ridicule and contempt.
It's not.
It's not good.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
I'm.
I'm very hopeful.
I hope
I'll live long enough
to see the change.
Do you have
do you have a timeline as to
like any predictions
as to how long
you think
it might take for us
to get where we want to be
for society?
I don't I,
I don't I'm not a prophet.
But the cool thing about
Bitcoin is that,
I get to decide
when I'm free.
Like,
I don't care about what
the politicians are like,
in a sense, like you,
you get, you transcend
the politics.
You get to transcend
the economic.
You know, booms and busts.
You just you get to exit
and just be
this sovereign individual.
So it's like, you know,
that that's what
I would be trying to
focus on is like you,
the individual choose,
when that happens for you
at that individual level,
you know, I'm, I'm,
I do think
grassroots up like it's
not going to happen top down.
I mean, even
if it was
theoretically possible
I don't
I don't know if it would
that would really work.
Like I think it really does
have to come from the bottom.
So you're not addressing
the individual
and saying, hey,
you do the proof of work,
you free yourself
and let's go.
You know, that's
that's how I think that is.
So, you know, I,
I got Bitcoin
quickly from the moment
I saw it,
studied it and was like,
this is it.
I'm I'm doing this,
you know
and and of the people,
you know like your friend
it took six years or whatever
to to say, hey
this is the actions
I'm going to take.
So it's like,
you know,
that choice
can't be made for you.
It you have to make it so,
you know,
you create the timeline
and,
when we
if we all take that approach,
you know, like, that's how
that's what answers
that question of
when does society get it?
Well, when enough individuals
decide to get it.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, thanks
very much for your time,
Neil.
It's been a pleasure
having me.
Yeah.
Thanks.