WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:02.440 --> 00:00:03.240 CJ: What's up, Colin? 00:00:03.280 --> 00:00:06.170 Welcome back from DevRelCon. 00:00:06.450 --> 00:00:07.890 How was New York City? 00:00:07.920 --> 00:00:09.180 Colin: was pretty humid. 00:00:09.220 --> 00:00:12.230 It was, you know, visiting New York in the summer. 00:00:13.010 --> 00:00:14.760 Always fun to go down the subway. 00:00:15.345 --> 00:00:18.145 when it's almost 100 degrees outside. 00:00:19.567 --> 00:00:22.507 CJ: Yeah, is it this is not your first time to New York. 00:00:23.007 --> 00:00:25.467 And were you there for the whole week or was it just kind 00:00:25.467 --> 00:00:26.787 of a few days or what did that 00:00:26.832 --> 00:00:31.272 Colin: Yeah, I actually took a red eye on Wednesday night and got there an 00:00:31.272 --> 00:00:33.252 hour before the conference started. 00:00:33.462 --> 00:00:34.032 And then 00:00:34.527 --> 00:00:34.807 CJ: I don't know. 00:00:35.122 --> 00:00:37.132 Colin: thankfully I was able to sleep on the plane. 00:00:37.292 --> 00:00:41.772 I have taken that same red eye and not been able to sleep the entire time, which 00:00:41.772 --> 00:00:43.562 then just wrecked me for the whole day. 00:00:43.582 --> 00:00:47.532 So I made sure that I would sleep on the plane. 00:00:47.997 --> 00:00:49.107 Barely got any sleep. 00:00:49.107 --> 00:00:53.057 Like my whoop detected that I just didn't sleep, even though I know I did. 00:00:53.647 --> 00:00:56.467 Then I had to figure out, you know, it's been a minute since I've been 00:00:56.467 --> 00:00:59.647 in New York, so I had to like figure out how do I get from JFK to the 00:00:59.647 --> 00:01:04.357 conference using, you know, air train to the This line to this line. 00:01:04.827 --> 00:01:06.167 That was actually really easy. 00:01:06.327 --> 00:01:09.727 It was like, this is, was like a, like a personal development trip. 00:01:09.727 --> 00:01:12.637 So like discord wasn't paying for something. 00:01:12.637 --> 00:01:14.087 So it was like, we're training the whole thing. 00:01:14.097 --> 00:01:16.067 Like what's the cheapest way to get there? 00:01:16.467 --> 00:01:20.557 Cause I think it was like 150 Uber ride to get to their conference. 00:01:20.557 --> 00:01:22.277 So yeah, I've got to the conference. 00:01:22.617 --> 00:01:27.397 Had all my stuff with me all day, just straight from the airport and just had a 00:01:27.397 --> 00:01:31.397 lot of coffee and did the first day and then got to go to the hotel and yeah, it 00:01:31.397 --> 00:01:33.467 was there for the weekend after as well. 00:01:33.467 --> 00:01:37.487 Just, it didn't make sense to like fly across the country and then fly right 00:01:37.487 --> 00:01:39.117 back as soon as the conference was over. 00:01:40.602 --> 00:01:41.012 CJ: hmm. 00:01:41.642 --> 00:01:45.512 So what are your tricks for trying to sleep on the plane for, for a red eye? 00:01:45.512 --> 00:01:45.667 I don't know. 00:01:45.732 --> 00:01:50.152 Colin: Yeah, I mean so many people like to do like ambience and stuff and that stuff 00:01:50.152 --> 00:01:55.412 scares me a little bit I just don't want to ever have to have something like that. 00:01:55.412 --> 00:02:01.672 So I have an inflatable some sea to summit pillow that I take so I don't have to 00:02:01.672 --> 00:02:06.022 like I think the pillow is important But I don't want to like carry a giant pillow 00:02:06.142 --> 00:02:11.632 everywhere So this one like collapses down into nothing and you can just inflate it. 00:02:12.162 --> 00:02:19.392 I mask Noise canceling headphones, usually AirPods, or if you have like over the 00:02:19.402 --> 00:02:21.242 ear ones, it's always tricky though. 00:02:21.242 --> 00:02:25.112 Cause like if you're on the end I didn't realize this cause I was completely 00:02:25.142 --> 00:02:27.862 out on this flight, but like, and no one needed to get up, but I was 00:02:27.862 --> 00:02:32.542 in the aisle and like, if you need to get up to go to the bathroom and 00:02:32.542 --> 00:02:35.322 you're on the inside and everyone's sleeping, like it's not a great. 00:02:36.037 --> 00:02:36.447 I don't know. 00:02:36.537 --> 00:02:37.657 Airplanes are so weird. 00:02:38.157 --> 00:02:40.777 But on the return flight, it wasn't even that late. 00:02:41.227 --> 00:02:43.567 Like, people were passed out and you could see people trying to, 00:02:43.567 --> 00:02:45.807 like, climb over seats and stuff. 00:02:45.807 --> 00:02:48.157 And I was like, this is just, like, this is how we fly. 00:02:48.587 --> 00:02:52.467 This is not what the TWA commercials of the 50s and 60s and the, 00:02:52.947 --> 00:02:54.657 the height of, of, of flight. 00:02:56.303 --> 00:02:57.363 CJ: That's not the promise. 00:02:57.413 --> 00:02:59.063 This is not what they promised us. 00:02:59.233 --> 00:02:59.593 Yeah. 00:02:59.713 --> 00:03:02.563 I, we have a red eye coming up. 00:03:02.633 --> 00:03:04.383 I haven't done one for several years. 00:03:04.403 --> 00:03:09.873 And I, I remember after I did the last one that I would never do one again. 00:03:09.903 --> 00:03:11.763 Like I was like, I, this is awful. 00:03:11.813 --> 00:03:13.573 Like I hated every second of the day 00:03:13.658 --> 00:03:14.048 Colin: Yeah, 00:03:14.623 --> 00:03:15.633 CJ: So yeah. 00:03:15.663 --> 00:03:17.863 Any, any any tips and tricks are Yeah, 00:03:17.863 --> 00:03:19.723 Colin: is that with the kids or just you? 00:03:20.393 --> 00:03:20.873 CJ: with the 00:03:21.043 --> 00:03:23.803 Colin: that, that'll probably make it a little bit more complicated. 00:03:23.913 --> 00:03:28.073 But I would say if, I don't know if you're up for it, but like I did do 00:03:28.073 --> 00:03:30.183 like half a weed gummy on the plane. 00:03:30.723 --> 00:03:32.063 I was just like, I need this. 00:03:32.368 --> 00:03:33.328 to make this work. 00:03:33.328 --> 00:03:37.698 So I mean, I trust that more like I know it'll be a few hours versus an 00:03:37.708 --> 00:03:41.058 ambient where I'm like, I don't want to be waking up like even more tired or 00:03:43.093 --> 00:03:43.853 CJ: yeah, totally. 00:03:44.753 --> 00:03:45.063 Yeah. 00:03:45.103 --> 00:03:46.113 That'll help for sure. 00:03:46.323 --> 00:03:46.733 Okay. 00:03:47.163 --> 00:03:50.543 I've also heard like, yeah, just do your same like bedroom routine or 00:03:50.543 --> 00:03:53.643 whatever, like at the airport, like wash your face, brush your teeth, 00:03:53.673 --> 00:03:56.383 like do the whole same thing that you would do before you go to bed and then 00:03:56.383 --> 00:03:59.093 like just do it and then get on the 00:03:59.428 --> 00:03:59.708 Colin: Yeah. 00:03:59.708 --> 00:04:02.668 I mean, like screens obviously are an issue. 00:04:02.678 --> 00:04:06.113 Like, it's already you're starting late, like, Honestly, I don't 00:04:06.123 --> 00:04:08.923 usually stay up till even midnight and my flight wasn't till midnight. 00:04:09.403 --> 00:04:14.033 Things like magnesium, tart, cherry juice, all those kinds of things can also help. 00:04:14.033 --> 00:04:17.593 So all the sleep stack stuff that everyone likes to talk about, 00:04:17.593 --> 00:04:18.803 this is the time to use it. 00:04:20.018 --> 00:04:20.368 CJ: Yeah. 00:04:20.408 --> 00:04:23.778 Have you seen those take talks or Instagram reels of people, raw dogging 00:04:23.803 --> 00:04:24.223 Colin: Yeah, 00:04:25.428 --> 00:04:25.668 CJ: Yeah. 00:04:25.668 --> 00:04:27.678 They just like stare, they do nothing. 00:04:27.678 --> 00:04:31.608 It's like, I saw this one that is the guy was like you know, six and 00:04:31.608 --> 00:04:36.178 a half hour flight, no snacks, no drinks, no water, no screens, no 00:04:36.178 --> 00:04:38.728 music, just no going to the bathroom. 00:04:38.728 --> 00:04:42.218 You just stare at the back of the seat in front of you for six and a half hours. 00:04:42.878 --> 00:04:44.778 Part of me is like tempted to try it. 00:04:44.778 --> 00:04:47.638 Just like, it's, it just seems like such a meditative. 00:04:47.933 --> 00:04:49.253 Thing, but 00:04:49.743 --> 00:04:56.193 Colin: for me, I get annoyed by everyone else on the plane, like I need to like 00:04:56.203 --> 00:04:59.533 movies are probably the easiest way that I get through flights, if I can 00:04:59.543 --> 00:05:02.693 work a little bit of write or read or something that's always good too, 00:05:02.693 --> 00:05:07.068 but the idea of like, like, I hate being Having to go to the bathroom 00:05:07.068 --> 00:05:08.878 on the plane because it's small and 00:05:09.933 --> 00:05:10.053 CJ: Mm-Hmm. 00:05:10.208 --> 00:05:10.678 Colin: that. 00:05:10.898 --> 00:05:14.968 But, you know, so then I, like on a long flight like this, like I'll try to be 00:05:14.968 --> 00:05:17.748 like, okay, we're going to get, we're going to use the restroom in the middle. 00:05:18.208 --> 00:05:22.518 So I only have to use it once, not try to drink too much, but drinking water, 00:05:22.518 --> 00:05:26.088 enough water, especially when you're flying is important too, for all just 00:05:26.088 --> 00:05:27.618 feeling normal, not having jet lag. 00:05:28.108 --> 00:05:29.198 Movies are good. 00:05:29.218 --> 00:05:29.428 Yeah. 00:05:29.428 --> 00:05:34.858 There's like the tick tocks of people just watching the map across the whole thing. 00:05:34.868 --> 00:05:38.928 And I don't know, like you got to take care of yourself on these things. 00:05:38.988 --> 00:05:42.528 I don't think it's worth trying to like win a medal for some 00:05:42.528 --> 00:05:45.158 meditative monk state, but yeah. 00:05:46.883 --> 00:05:51.553 CJ: And then so you got to the conference and was it kind of several tracks or 00:05:51.553 --> 00:05:55.853 single track and then like rough idea of like how many people were there 00:05:55.853 --> 00:05:57.503 and kind of like, where was it at and 00:05:57.523 --> 00:05:59.933 Colin: Yeah, it was an industry city in New York city. 00:05:59.963 --> 00:06:04.913 So kind of like food hall, bunch of businesses and 00:06:04.923 --> 00:06:06.653 food, food vendors and stuff. 00:06:06.703 --> 00:06:11.563 And so there was like a event space for the main track was there were two tracks. 00:06:11.563 --> 00:06:14.743 I don't know if they were actually split by a topic, but you could 00:06:14.743 --> 00:06:17.913 go between the two rooms depending on what topic you're into. 00:06:17.913 --> 00:06:20.943 And then there was an unconference that was running both days as well. 00:06:21.333 --> 00:06:26.188 We, we can talk about it here cause this is, This is a safe place, but it 00:06:26.188 --> 00:06:30.168 was interesting to see like how much, there's been a lot of articles about 00:06:30.168 --> 00:06:33.458 the death of DevRel and we've talked about it on the show before we maybe 00:06:33.458 --> 00:06:35.488 even mentioned it in the last episode. 00:06:35.488 --> 00:06:39.698 And it was just really weird to see that, that energy from some folks 00:06:39.698 --> 00:06:41.788 who aren't even in DevRel anymore. 00:06:42.188 --> 00:06:43.678 And I'm not sure what the goal is. 00:06:43.678 --> 00:06:47.498 It's like, is this for your own personal, like, like pulling the 00:06:47.498 --> 00:06:51.288 ladder up behind you, literally kind of stuff, but it's people who aren't 00:06:51.288 --> 00:06:52.898 even necessarily in DevRel anymore. 00:06:53.088 --> 00:06:57.668 And there's just a whole lot of justifying re's existence or 00:06:57.668 --> 00:06:59.438 justifying the function of Derel. 00:06:59.888 --> 00:07:03.428 And we've mentioned it before, but like a lot of the stuff that we do at 00:07:03.698 --> 00:07:08.768 Discord just doesn't look like normal, well, quote unquote normal derel. 00:07:09.068 --> 00:07:11.168 And when we worked at Orbit, we saw this too. 00:07:11.528 --> 00:07:13.538 Every company does it differently. 00:07:13.538 --> 00:07:15.813 So you to, to say Derell is dead is. 00:07:16.438 --> 00:07:20.798 Dumb because it's not one thing, but every company is different. 00:07:20.798 --> 00:07:23.988 I think Kelsey Hightower said DevRel is whatever the person 00:07:23.988 --> 00:07:26.318 paying you says it is, right? 00:07:26.398 --> 00:07:29.318 At Stripe, it's going to be different than Shopify is different 00:07:29.318 --> 00:07:33.598 than a developer first company versus a developer plus company. 00:07:33.998 --> 00:07:35.368 Is it more community focused? 00:07:35.368 --> 00:07:36.608 Is it content focused? 00:07:36.628 --> 00:07:38.088 It's all different things. 00:07:38.088 --> 00:07:41.248 Like what you did is very different than what I did. 00:07:41.288 --> 00:07:45.668 We probably had lots of overlaps, but like, you know, You were 00:07:45.668 --> 00:07:47.168 very much a face of the docs. 00:07:47.178 --> 00:07:50.908 Literally when people would start, you know, the videos, it was, it was CJ. 00:07:52.098 --> 00:07:55.078 So it was an interesting vibe to the conference. 00:07:55.078 --> 00:07:58.218 Like there were definitely people who mentioned some of those articles 00:07:58.228 --> 00:08:00.188 and the, the, the perception of it. 00:08:00.808 --> 00:08:03.418 Obviously a lot of people also trying to get jobs. 00:08:03.428 --> 00:08:07.538 So I think that also perpetuates it a little bit like, Oh, if everything was 00:08:07.538 --> 00:08:10.668 in, you know, the high times of DevRel, then everyone would just have a job. 00:08:10.668 --> 00:08:13.178 And it's like, well, it turns out there is unemployment in 00:08:13.178 --> 00:08:14.938 every industry and DevRel is not. 00:08:15.418 --> 00:08:16.708 does not escape that too. 00:08:16.708 --> 00:08:20.568 So hopefully some of those people are able to meet people and get jobs or 00:08:20.568 --> 00:08:22.248 connections through, through this though. 00:08:23.733 --> 00:08:24.153 CJ: Yeah. 00:08:24.563 --> 00:08:30.023 I think as long as companies are working with developers as customers. 00:08:30.288 --> 00:08:35.098 There will be some form of DevRel and dev marketing and content creation and 00:08:35.098 --> 00:08:39.508 community building and all of that is like important if your customer is a developer. 00:08:39.508 --> 00:08:44.688 And so yeah, I can't imagine a world where DevRel really permanently goes away 00:08:44.688 --> 00:08:48.638 and in all different aspects, I think it'll definitely shift and change over 00:08:48.638 --> 00:08:54.938 the years, but yeah, I think At every single one of these companies, there is 00:08:54.938 --> 00:08:58.268 definitely some sort of need, whether that is a full time thing or not is 00:08:58.268 --> 00:09:03.108 debatable, but there's certainly like that activity is important and valuable and 00:09:03.208 --> 00:09:03.528 Colin: Yeah. 00:09:05.318 --> 00:09:05.768 Well, 00:09:05.878 --> 00:09:08.528 CJ: kind of a bummer to hear that folks are saying that it's dead though, 00:09:08.558 --> 00:09:12.598 because it was like, it's by far one of my most favorite roles for sure. 00:09:13.178 --> 00:09:15.828 Colin: yeah, I'll share some of the articles in the links and 00:09:15.828 --> 00:09:16.968 I'll share one with you too. 00:09:16.968 --> 00:09:21.358 That one comes from Casey who started at Twilio danger, Casey. 00:09:21.948 --> 00:09:24.318 And they're in kind of more product role now. 00:09:24.318 --> 00:09:29.018 And I think that they're an example of like, they were, Twilio was kind 00:09:29.018 --> 00:09:31.828 of the quintessential DevRel, right? 00:09:31.838 --> 00:09:37.338 Like the time to first hello world, the, which is great for sending a text message. 00:09:37.378 --> 00:09:42.048 It's an amazing demo to curl and send a text or ring a phone call. 00:09:42.048 --> 00:09:45.838 And now with AI, like we can do so much with that. 00:09:46.358 --> 00:09:49.918 And there's a lot at some point, I think DevRel did become how 00:09:49.918 --> 00:09:51.638 many conferences can you go to? 00:09:51.978 --> 00:09:53.328 And there's some very valid points. 00:09:53.328 --> 00:09:53.648 It's like. 00:09:53.858 --> 00:09:56.948 It is weird to go to a conference when every speaker is a DevRel. 00:09:57.738 --> 00:10:00.338 It feels like ad after ad. 00:10:00.408 --> 00:10:03.818 And again, not every DevRel does talks the same way either. 00:10:03.818 --> 00:10:06.808 Like, there are some people who make a talk and pitch it to 00:10:06.838 --> 00:10:08.268 every conference on the planet. 00:10:08.628 --> 00:10:11.388 And then there are people, I think like you and I both approach it 00:10:11.388 --> 00:10:14.408 a little bit differently, and we craft a talk for the conference. 00:10:14.808 --> 00:10:18.873 And sure, it doesn't quote unquote scale, but like, It makes for a 00:10:18.873 --> 00:10:20.523 good talk that isn't a sales pitch. 00:10:20.543 --> 00:10:24.053 Even if we're dev advocates, we're not necessarily pitching. 00:10:24.073 --> 00:10:26.153 Like when I did mine, it was not pitching orbit. 00:10:26.153 --> 00:10:28.023 It was, we had this problem at orbit. 00:10:28.033 --> 00:10:29.063 This is how we fixed it. 00:10:29.083 --> 00:10:33.563 This is how you might approach build versus buy or whatever in your company. 00:10:33.593 --> 00:10:35.743 And it wasn't then go use orbit. 00:10:35.793 --> 00:10:38.053 So obviously if you're. 00:10:38.748 --> 00:10:42.518 Running a tools company and you're at a dev conference, you are being 00:10:42.538 --> 00:10:45.368 paid to chill your tech tools. 00:10:45.368 --> 00:10:51.258 So I think that is, there's a fine line of being the, the over, overly salesperson 00:10:51.738 --> 00:10:53.958 versus truly advocating for something. 00:10:56.343 --> 00:10:59.573 CJ: Were there any like trends or things that seemed interesting in terms 00:10:59.573 --> 00:11:04.353 of like what modern or like, you know What is devrel gonna look like in 2025 00:11:04.353 --> 00:11:08.763 in terms of I don't know I guess I'm thinking stuff like short form video 00:11:08.763 --> 00:11:19.373 content and or like stuff that's sort of you know Beyond like docs and SDKs. 00:11:19.528 --> 00:11:22.988 Colin: There was, there was a, the talks that were most interesting to me were 00:11:22.988 --> 00:11:28.468 around like partners and kind of going, there's like this concept of head torso 00:11:28.468 --> 00:11:30.538 and tail developers in your company. 00:11:30.538 --> 00:11:34.998 So the head being like those strategics, torsos being, you know, kind of 00:11:35.008 --> 00:11:38.888 like, we have a contract with you and you're a partner of some kind. 00:11:39.378 --> 00:11:43.313 And then you had a long tail of just every DIY dev that finds 00:11:43.313 --> 00:11:44.733 you and is figuring it out. 00:11:44.733 --> 00:11:48.703 Maybe they're learning, maybe they might bring it into the next company with them. 00:11:48.713 --> 00:11:50.653 Maybe they're doing something indie or something. 00:11:51.103 --> 00:11:52.413 So those two were interesting. 00:11:52.423 --> 00:11:53.523 One was from Roku. 00:11:53.893 --> 00:11:56.813 And the other one's from bear Douglas from pine cone. 00:11:56.893 --> 00:12:00.463 They spent time at Twitter and Slack doing dev dev rel stuff. 00:12:00.903 --> 00:12:05.093 So those two were probably like the most quote, like mature. 00:12:05.588 --> 00:12:06.608 form of Deborah. 00:12:06.958 --> 00:12:09.278 And I think where a lot of people want to be like, they are not 00:12:09.288 --> 00:12:10.618 justifying their existence. 00:12:10.618 --> 00:12:11.448 I guarantee it. 00:12:11.888 --> 00:12:12.228 Right? 00:12:12.268 --> 00:12:15.818 Like they know exactly what the power is that they, that they're in. 00:12:16.258 --> 00:12:19.408 I didn't go to any of the, there will be, all their talks will be released. 00:12:19.408 --> 00:12:23.868 So even if you couldn't make it, they will be on Debra Khan's YouTube channel. 00:12:23.868 --> 00:12:29.438 But there was one on video from Kevin, I'm blanking on his last name, Kevin Lewis. 00:12:29.808 --> 00:12:32.868 Just around like how to create that video production, like. 00:12:33.348 --> 00:12:34.838 Process and stack for yourself. 00:12:35.458 --> 00:12:39.088 The one that was most valuable to me was actually docs and SDKs 00:12:39.138 --> 00:12:40.808 and it was an unconference talk. 00:12:41.158 --> 00:12:43.708 So I didn't really get a sense to answer your question, like 00:12:43.738 --> 00:12:45.688 of like the future of DevRel. 00:12:45.688 --> 00:12:51.828 And I think I kind of went with my own assignment of how are we going to 00:12:51.828 --> 00:12:54.458 think about maturing DevRel at discord? 00:12:55.068 --> 00:12:59.378 That was kind of my homework of what does it look like as we, if we 00:12:59.378 --> 00:13:01.678 can build out the full team for it. 00:13:02.278 --> 00:13:05.468 And it didn't really check any of those boxes, but like the unconference 00:13:05.468 --> 00:13:10.728 around what people are using, who's also responsible for the docs and 00:13:10.728 --> 00:13:12.368 all that kind of stuff was, was fun. 00:13:12.448 --> 00:13:16.178 I, I think I am a docs person at heart, so, 00:13:20.113 --> 00:13:25.133 CJ: It's, it has been really interesting to see that responsibility 00:13:25.133 --> 00:13:26.423 falls in different companies. 00:13:26.823 --> 00:13:29.753 Where like at Stripe, the docs were technically supposed to be written 00:13:29.753 --> 00:13:33.093 by the product team, but we had like a giant team of docs writers 00:13:33.093 --> 00:13:35.613 that would also sometimes write. 00:13:35.998 --> 00:13:36.478 The docs. 00:13:36.508 --> 00:13:39.478 And then we had an editor who would like, make sure all the tone was the same. 00:13:39.998 --> 00:13:43.818 And then I know tons of other companies where docs might be written by 00:13:44.448 --> 00:13:48.248 DevRel, or they might be written by, you know, support, or they might be 00:13:48.248 --> 00:13:49.808 written by marketing or something. 00:13:49.808 --> 00:13:52.998 And so, yeah, where that falls is, is pretty interesting. 00:13:53.248 --> 00:13:53.948 Especially like. 00:13:54.403 --> 00:13:57.863 I don't know the different flavors that we talked about before that kind of like 00:13:57.893 --> 00:14:00.883 the four different types of documentation. 00:14:01.043 --> 00:14:01.353 Colin: Yeah, 00:14:02.928 --> 00:14:03.388 CJ: cool. 00:14:03.433 --> 00:14:05.103 Colin: that was DevRel con. 00:14:05.908 --> 00:14:06.198 CJ: Nice. 00:14:06.738 --> 00:14:07.148 Nice. 00:14:08.058 --> 00:14:09.008 Sounds like a fun trip. 00:14:09.853 --> 00:14:12.723 Colin: What were you working on while I was running around New York? 00:14:13.978 --> 00:14:15.008 CJ: Oh gosh. 00:14:15.078 --> 00:14:16.188 Last week. 00:14:17.128 --> 00:14:18.178 Oh, actually, you know what? 00:14:18.228 --> 00:14:19.848 Logan and I took a trip to Chicago. 00:14:19.908 --> 00:14:22.248 So you were, I think when you were in New York, we were in 00:14:22.248 --> 00:14:23.448 Chicago for the first time. 00:14:23.938 --> 00:14:24.648 It was awesome. 00:14:24.648 --> 00:14:25.868 It was a father son trip. 00:14:25.928 --> 00:14:28.408 The first one this year. 00:14:28.448 --> 00:14:30.378 I'm doing another one later this year with Grayson. 00:14:30.378 --> 00:14:32.058 We're going to go to DC. 00:14:32.088 --> 00:14:33.518 But Chicago was awesome. 00:14:33.518 --> 00:14:38.073 It was my first time going and we like, Just played and had tons of fun. 00:14:38.073 --> 00:14:42.493 We went and did like this boat tour for architecture and we went to a bunch 00:14:42.493 --> 00:14:46.453 of museums and his favorite thing that I think, like, it made me a little 00:14:46.453 --> 00:14:49.813 bit nauseous, but it was one of those like flight simulators where you get 00:14:49.823 --> 00:14:54.193 in the actual cockpit and as you're like rolling the joystick, it actually 00:14:54.193 --> 00:14:55.893 like rolls over the entire cockpit. 00:14:55.893 --> 00:14:58.443 So you can feel like you're upside down or like, you know, you're 00:14:58.453 --> 00:14:59.913 diving straight forward or whatever. 00:14:59.933 --> 00:15:01.283 It was, it was pretty epic. 00:15:01.333 --> 00:15:02.083 Super fun. 00:15:02.603 --> 00:15:05.803 But yeah, definitely a little bit nauseating. 00:15:05.803 --> 00:15:08.723 So, but yeah, Chicago was Chicago was pretty, pretty sweet. 00:15:08.823 --> 00:15:12.803 I think I would definitely go back probably just Nicole and I do some more 00:15:12.803 --> 00:15:16.503 adult stuff, go to shows and eat out at more restaurants and things like that. 00:15:16.628 --> 00:15:16.998 Colin: Yeah 00:15:17.048 --> 00:15:20.258 it's, it's it's not a cheap dinner and I haven't been yet. 00:15:20.268 --> 00:15:24.218 It is on my bucket list, but if you if you guys really enjoy food and you and 00:15:24.228 --> 00:15:26.978 Nicole go back, gotta go to Alinea. 00:15:28.803 --> 00:15:29.313 CJ: Okay. 00:15:29.498 --> 00:15:32.478 Colin: we'll put a link to it, but one of my favorite chefs. 00:15:33.203 --> 00:15:34.273 Really crazy story. 00:15:34.273 --> 00:15:38.193 If you I'll put a link to the, I think it's a chef's table story with him. 00:15:38.723 --> 00:15:41.453 There's something that happens to him in there that it's 00:15:41.453 --> 00:15:43.143 just like such a crazy story. 00:15:43.223 --> 00:15:45.743 I won't spoil it here, but very cool restaurant. 00:15:45.763 --> 00:15:49.253 I mean, it's definitely one of those like Michelin star, like very expensive 00:15:49.303 --> 00:15:54.323 restaurants, but if there's ever a special occasion, it's on my list as well. 00:15:56.163 --> 00:15:57.803 CJ: The food was good. 00:15:58.203 --> 00:15:59.613 I love deep dish pizza. 00:15:59.663 --> 00:16:03.523 We had that, but I think it was not as good as New York. 00:16:03.633 --> 00:16:09.313 So like, I remember like every single of food and well, I mean, I, I, 00:16:09.373 --> 00:16:13.073 yeah, like the pizza, the pizza, I think actually the pizza in Chicago. 00:16:13.653 --> 00:16:13.983 I don't know. 00:16:13.993 --> 00:16:16.363 We had like a slice on the street, like in New York. 00:16:16.363 --> 00:16:20.913 So different, you know, not easy to compare, but the, like just 00:16:20.923 --> 00:16:24.303 in general, overall, every bite in New York was just insane. 00:16:24.553 --> 00:16:28.253 And Chicago was like hit or miss a little bit, but yeah, that's funny. 00:16:28.803 --> 00:16:34.063 We did go, yeah, we went to this like museum of science and industry, and they 00:16:34.063 --> 00:16:37.093 had like a double Oh seven exhibit going on, which was pretty sweet to see, like, 00:16:37.573 --> 00:16:41.113 he's like Aston Martins and like, you know, props and stuff from the movies. 00:16:41.513 --> 00:16:41.833 So that 00:16:41.893 --> 00:16:43.873 Colin: that's a, that's a good one to have a museum on. 00:16:44.023 --> 00:16:45.893 No shortage of things to show. 00:16:47.153 --> 00:16:48.433 CJ: yeah, yeah, totally. 00:16:48.573 --> 00:16:49.343 It was a blast. 00:16:49.943 --> 00:16:50.353 So 00:16:51.843 --> 00:16:54.683 Colin: And you're back in back in enum land and work? 00:16:55.303 --> 00:16:58.863 CJ: Enum land, I am, I have a new rule of thumb. 00:16:58.873 --> 00:16:59.803 No Enums. 00:17:00.788 --> 00:17:01.808 Death to enums. 00:17:01.838 --> 00:17:05.488 Enums are just like creating so many, so many problems, so 00:17:05.643 --> 00:17:06.733 Colin: Foot guns. 00:17:06.778 --> 00:17:11.068 CJ: have decided that, yeah, it's just, this migration is just awful. 00:17:11.458 --> 00:17:15.978 So yeah, we haven't, we have I have this big blog post about like ways 00:17:15.988 --> 00:17:17.868 that you should do enums, right. 00:17:17.888 --> 00:17:20.318 And I'm, I'm going to go make an edit to that and just say, just 00:17:20.318 --> 00:17:21.638 don't, don't ever use enums. 00:17:23.418 --> 00:17:28.798 It's just such a messy, such a messy, uh, migration to fix switching 00:17:28.798 --> 00:17:30.848 from an enum to a proper model. 00:17:31.148 --> 00:17:34.208 And now that we have the model, it's so much more flexible and there's so 00:17:34.208 --> 00:17:36.038 many more things we can do with it. 00:17:36.408 --> 00:17:39.388 And yeah, just like breaking it out and actually being able to 00:17:39.398 --> 00:17:43.988 encode way more than just a string into the value of the enum and, 00:17:44.063 --> 00:17:47.243 Colin: that the, for like someone who maybe hasn't played with enums 00:17:47.253 --> 00:17:51.623 or is just joining us, like, is that going to be the biggest trade off? 00:17:51.623 --> 00:17:56.583 Is that like, usually, yeah, it's just a string or some sort of int value. 00:17:58.098 --> 00:17:58.468 CJ: right. 00:17:58.508 --> 00:17:58.828 Yeah. 00:17:58.828 --> 00:18:02.798 So usually I think probably the rule of thumb typically for enums 00:18:02.818 --> 00:18:07.448 is like, if you have some very small fixed set of things that. 00:18:07.988 --> 00:18:12.528 Or some very small fixed set of values that could be assigned to something, 00:18:12.578 --> 00:18:17.528 then you might want to use an enum where, you know, it's either one, 00:18:17.528 --> 00:18:21.888 two, or three, and it can't be any other value in terms of like how it's 00:18:21.898 --> 00:18:26.218 technically implemented, you can do it at the database level, Postgres supports 00:18:26.218 --> 00:18:33.553 enums you can do it at, Like the model level in rails, where you have a column 00:18:33.563 --> 00:18:35.913 that is either a string or an integer. 00:18:35.963 --> 00:18:40.243 And like, you know, if you want super, super fast, speedy, whatever, then you 00:18:40.243 --> 00:18:44.943 might decide to store an integer in the database, but then rails has like 00:18:44.963 --> 00:18:50.793 these, um, you know metaprogramming tools that expose methods so that 00:18:50.793 --> 00:18:52.443 you can call methods on your model. 00:18:52.873 --> 00:18:55.623 And those can get mapped to names. 00:18:55.878 --> 00:18:56.628 Which are attached. 00:18:56.638 --> 00:19:00.668 So for example, if you have like a status field and you have pending and 00:19:00.668 --> 00:19:04.578 submitted and canceled or something, those, you might consider making those 00:19:04.578 --> 00:19:08.708 in enum where in the database, you actually store just like zero, one or 00:19:08.708 --> 00:19:13.478 two, but zero might be mapped to like pending one might be mapped to submitted 00:19:13.478 --> 00:19:14.928 and two might be mapped to canceled. 00:19:15.298 --> 00:19:17.478 And then you'll get methods on your object. 00:19:17.478 --> 00:19:21.738 Like you know, thing dot submitted question mark, and that will 00:19:21.738 --> 00:19:24.138 return true or false depending on whether or not it's submitted. 00:19:24.528 --> 00:19:28.398 So there's like a, a lot of nice little conventional things that you get from it, 00:19:28.398 --> 00:19:31.108 but we were using it for an item type. 00:19:31.308 --> 00:19:35.738 In our case, that's like for an estimate, can you, an item type 00:19:35.738 --> 00:19:41.988 might be the walls or the trim or the ceiling or the crown molding or the 00:19:41.988 --> 00:19:43.648 window casings and things like that. 00:19:43.983 --> 00:19:44.903 Inside of a room. 00:19:45.093 --> 00:19:49.573 And so you would build up these estimate items for like a line item. 00:19:50.023 --> 00:19:52.753 And each of those estimate items would be tied to an item type. 00:19:53.153 --> 00:19:55.123 So in the beginning it was fine. 00:19:55.123 --> 00:19:58.603 It was like, okay, yeah, you can do the wall ceiling trim and crown molding. 00:19:58.603 --> 00:20:01.103 And then over time it was like, okay, now we're painting exteriors. 00:20:01.443 --> 00:20:05.353 Now we're painting cabinetry, which needs like inside boxes, outside boxes. 00:20:05.823 --> 00:20:10.013 You know, exteriors need like fascia and columns and stairs and 00:20:10.013 --> 00:20:11.093 like all kinds of other stuff. 00:20:11.093 --> 00:20:15.373 And so Eventually it was like, okay, now we're trying to encode way too 00:20:15.373 --> 00:20:17.863 much just into the name of the enum. 00:20:17.873 --> 00:20:21.423 So we got to a point where like the name of the enum was like paint, 00:20:21.433 --> 00:20:24.303 square foot, exterior siding, whatever. 00:20:24.303 --> 00:20:27.333 And that points at number like 94 or something, you know, and that's like, 00:20:27.693 --> 00:20:30.143 okay, we're like abusing it too much. 00:20:30.363 --> 00:20:34.253 This should be a proper model where the model has like a name and maybe a 00:20:34.253 --> 00:20:39.613 slug and an ID and like, you know, does it accept paint colors or does it not? 00:20:39.643 --> 00:20:41.543 And is it a. 00:20:41.998 --> 00:20:45.158 This individual unit, like, are we going to paint each of these? 00:20:45.178 --> 00:20:46.308 Or are we going to paint one of them? 00:20:46.338 --> 00:20:48.878 Are we going to paint it by the square feet or by the linear foot? 00:20:49.468 --> 00:20:55.708 And so a lot of that encoding can happen in a proper model that is like really 00:20:55.708 --> 00:20:57.528 hard when you're just using an enum. 00:20:57.673 --> 00:21:02.288 Colin: How How does that work with when you want to change 00:21:02.288 --> 00:21:03.868 or update or add to a model? 00:21:03.868 --> 00:21:07.398 Is there some sort of versioning or anything like that built in? 00:21:08.798 --> 00:21:16.118 CJ: So usually if you're adding, you add a new, you can add a new enum 00:21:16.318 --> 00:21:17.958 without it being a breaking change. 00:21:18.708 --> 00:21:21.998 If you are like, if we decided, you know, we have. 00:21:22.603 --> 00:21:24.273 Pending submitted, canceled. 00:21:24.443 --> 00:21:27.343 And if we wanted to add some other one that was like waiting review or something, 00:21:27.343 --> 00:21:29.043 we could just make that number four. 00:21:29.588 --> 00:21:33.118 Colin: I mean, in the sense of the models themselves, like if, 00:21:33.213 --> 00:21:33.573 CJ: Oh, 00:21:33.638 --> 00:21:40.288 Colin: if you've completely changed the model options or, you know, we have a 00:21:40.298 --> 00:21:45.178 new thing that like usually additional things are, are move, like they break 00:21:45.178 --> 00:21:48.648 forward and you don't really need to worry about it, but then if you're 00:21:48.648 --> 00:21:50.308 changing up stuff, how does that work? 00:21:51.573 --> 00:21:52.043 CJ: Right. 00:21:52.153 --> 00:21:55.103 So yeah, when you're using an enum, if you, if it's in the database, 00:21:55.103 --> 00:21:56.453 it needs a database migration. 00:21:56.463 --> 00:21:59.713 If you're using an enum in the model, you can add to it or change it from the model. 00:22:00.353 --> 00:22:03.033 If you're using a separate data model instead of an enum. 00:22:03.468 --> 00:22:08.008 That gives you a lot of power to like hand over the keys to non technical users 00:22:08.008 --> 00:22:09.548 who can just click around in the UI. 00:22:10.118 --> 00:22:15.348 If someday the sales team decides that they want to support painting, you 00:22:15.348 --> 00:22:18.818 know, flower pots or something, they can just go in and add a new item type 00:22:18.818 --> 00:22:23.508 for flower pots and like, it should all just work as expected without having 00:22:23.508 --> 00:22:25.288 to like make a change to the code. 00:22:25.288 --> 00:22:25.598 So 00:22:26.208 --> 00:22:28.358 Colin: I mean, I guess you're working with things in the real world. 00:22:28.358 --> 00:22:30.978 So like, it's not like we're going to find something that we've never discovered 00:22:30.978 --> 00:22:34.698 before a fourth, a fourth dimension. 00:22:34.728 --> 00:22:37.858 It's like, okay, how, what is the width, the depth and the height? 00:22:37.928 --> 00:22:40.998 We know there will not be yet another measurement that we have to worry about. 00:22:41.628 --> 00:22:42.368 CJ: Exactly. 00:22:42.558 --> 00:22:42.988 Yeah. 00:22:43.678 --> 00:22:47.768 So yeah, just kind of doing surgery, replacing that with models, 00:22:47.768 --> 00:22:49.038 and that's been a big project. 00:22:50.898 --> 00:22:56.398 Yeah, just like putting a bow on and a little cherry on top of the calendaring 00:22:56.398 --> 00:23:00.968 stuff, but for the most part, like, the calendaring, staffing, clock in, clock 00:23:00.968 --> 00:23:03.853 out stuff is all Pretty much wrapped up. 00:23:03.873 --> 00:23:04.263 So 00:23:04.698 --> 00:23:05.258 Colin: Very cool. 00:23:05.513 --> 00:23:06.123 CJ: yeah, 00:23:06.728 --> 00:23:06.948 Colin: Yeah. 00:23:06.948 --> 00:23:10.048 I think definitely update your blog posts, but I think a blog 00:23:10.048 --> 00:23:14.258 posts around death to enums or something might be interesting too. 00:23:15.683 --> 00:23:16.543 CJ: yeah, okay. 00:23:16.623 --> 00:23:18.673 Yeah, I think that's coming in hot. 00:23:18.753 --> 00:23:22.253 Ooh, another, yeah, I can't remember if we talked about it last time, but I have 00:23:22.253 --> 00:23:27.453 a blog post in mind about splitting Redis instances, like one for view caching and 00:23:27.453 --> 00:23:33.003 one for sidekick, which was a thing that bit us and took a while to figure out 00:23:33.053 --> 00:23:33.363 Colin: that. 00:23:34.848 --> 00:23:38.508 CJ: yeah, what's going on over there, project tracking, 00:23:38.548 --> 00:23:40.928 you got some, yeah, what, 00:23:41.213 --> 00:23:42.273 Colin: Yeah, I guess. 00:23:42.318 --> 00:23:43.038 CJ: your preferred 00:23:43.473 --> 00:23:46.903 Colin: Oh man, I guess DevRel is like more of my brain is right now, 00:23:46.903 --> 00:23:51.993 but we've been trying to figure out how to track what we're doing. 00:23:52.913 --> 00:23:56.643 When we do so many things, we do a little bit of everything. 00:23:57.593 --> 00:24:00.353 We, as a company uses sauna for a lot of stuff. 00:24:00.353 --> 00:24:01.813 We also use notion for a lot of stuff. 00:24:01.813 --> 00:24:03.453 We have get hub for a lot of stuff. 00:24:04.163 --> 00:24:08.543 And what's tricky is not necessarily like, where do you put all the tasks? 00:24:08.583 --> 00:24:09.113 It's. 00:24:09.608 --> 00:24:13.948 What is, if we only have two people's worth of time, what is the most 00:24:13.948 --> 00:24:15.528 important things for us to be doing? 00:24:16.008 --> 00:24:18.698 What are things that are popping up that we don't know about? 00:24:18.718 --> 00:24:22.058 What are things that we know are going to come up that we don't think about yet, 00:24:22.058 --> 00:24:24.158 but we don't want to keep it in our brain? 00:24:24.658 --> 00:24:28.248 And like, this feels like a solved problem everywhere all the time, but 00:24:28.738 --> 00:24:34.598 the challenge is if you common view that board by yourself tomorrow. 00:24:35.038 --> 00:24:40.188 It's hard to know what of these things are hard, take a long time. 00:24:40.708 --> 00:24:44.348 Are things that we can do in our sleep things that we already did unless 00:24:44.348 --> 00:24:45.988 we really have a good system for it. 00:24:45.988 --> 00:24:48.958 And this kind of goes back to the slow productivity episode 00:24:48.958 --> 00:24:50.048 that we talked about, where. 00:24:50.478 --> 00:24:53.748 When someone does come with, with something that they need you to do, like 00:24:53.818 --> 00:24:58.518 asking them to go put it on the list and they'll see how many other things you're 00:24:58.518 --> 00:25:01.568 doing and they'll be like, Oh, maybe I'll just do it myself or maybe it's actually 00:25:01.568 --> 00:25:02.858 not as important as I thought it was. 00:25:03.328 --> 00:25:05.978 But like today you couldn't do that because you'll be like, Oh yeah, 00:25:05.978 --> 00:25:07.048 they just have a lot of stuff. 00:25:07.078 --> 00:25:09.168 Let me just put this on the top of their pile. 00:25:09.218 --> 00:25:12.468 And the problem with that is that we don't either know that it's been added. 00:25:12.953 --> 00:25:15.503 And that can be solved all sorts of ways. 00:25:16.053 --> 00:25:18.393 So we're just trying to think through like how to do this. 00:25:18.393 --> 00:25:22.053 And we've mocked up a thing in notion to just play around with 00:25:22.053 --> 00:25:24.013 like different concepts and ideas. 00:25:24.013 --> 00:25:27.383 And I went down this like notion template rabbit hole and bought 00:25:27.383 --> 00:25:30.633 a few temp project templates to see how other people are doing it. 00:25:31.073 --> 00:25:35.143 And man, people are doing some crazy stuff in notion, which is awesome. 00:25:35.673 --> 00:25:39.343 But then you're spending more of your time curating notion. 00:25:39.808 --> 00:25:41.108 Then actually doing the work. 00:25:41.108 --> 00:25:44.348 So we traveled a really long circle around. 00:25:44.358 --> 00:25:49.638 So now we're going back to Asana in part because the team can also see it. 00:25:50.018 --> 00:25:53.078 We're just going to try to figure out how to make it more. 00:25:53.528 --> 00:25:56.938 Like you don't get to just add things to our list. 00:25:56.938 --> 00:25:58.518 They'll probably be a different project. 00:25:58.528 --> 00:25:59.598 That's like an inbox. 00:26:00.278 --> 00:26:04.908 And then we'll move things into our project that we, if, if it's in the inbox, 00:26:04.908 --> 00:26:08.438 you can count on the fact that we haven't seen it yet till it's been processed. 00:26:08.448 --> 00:26:11.688 So we're still figuring it out, but it has helped. 00:26:11.688 --> 00:26:15.038 Even the notion has helped to take things out of my head so that I don't 00:26:15.038 --> 00:26:16.458 have to carry them around with me. 00:26:16.458 --> 00:26:18.048 Like when I go home and just like. 00:26:18.618 --> 00:26:21.668 Not have to worry about it or if someone goes on PTO or 00:26:21.668 --> 00:26:23.338 something like it's all in there. 00:26:23.768 --> 00:26:28.218 We might end up doing some sort of like top five thing instead of trying to 00:26:28.218 --> 00:26:30.988 figure out like how do we tell everyone what's important and what's not important. 00:26:31.008 --> 00:26:35.238 Like we could just say what is important and everything else is below the line. 00:26:35.788 --> 00:26:36.108 I don't know. 00:26:36.118 --> 00:26:40.028 Have you had any need to demonstrate like urgency and 00:26:40.028 --> 00:26:41.228 importance and stuff like that? 00:26:42.678 --> 00:26:46.168 CJ: Yeah, and we, we actually had a similar discussion with our team. 00:26:46.693 --> 00:26:51.353 At the offset a few weeks ago where we were like, why do we need to put 00:26:51.413 --> 00:26:53.903 tasks individual tasks into projects? 00:26:53.903 --> 00:26:58.873 Like if I know that there's something that needs to be done Can I just like create 00:26:58.873 --> 00:27:03.043 a task assign it to myself and do it and we kind of made a A rough rule that like 00:27:03.063 --> 00:27:06.233 every task must be assigned to a project. 00:27:06.683 --> 00:27:09.653 And so we use linear for project management. 00:27:09.653 --> 00:27:11.293 I don't know if that was one of the ones that you checked out. 00:27:11.393 --> 00:27:14.983 But that's like also a company wide thing that we're using. 00:27:14.983 --> 00:27:15.823 So if we were. 00:27:16.348 --> 00:27:17.258 Had a place using Asana. 00:27:17.318 --> 00:27:19.128 We, we would certainly use Asana. 00:27:19.448 --> 00:27:21.968 I don't know if Asana has the concept of projects. 00:27:22.468 --> 00:27:26.118 But where we landed was like every task should be attached to a project. 00:27:26.738 --> 00:27:32.028 And then what we've done is put those projects into initiatives. 00:27:32.293 --> 00:27:35.133 And I think they used to be called roadmaps or something in Asana. 00:27:35.833 --> 00:27:40.053 And so like when we meet with the stakeholders from different teams, 00:27:40.053 --> 00:27:43.733 we'll pull up their roadmap and be like, here's all the projects that 00:27:43.733 --> 00:27:44.963 we know we're working on for you. 00:27:44.983 --> 00:27:46.963 And like rough statuses of each of those. 00:27:47.403 --> 00:27:49.413 Here's the two that are in flight right now. 00:27:49.433 --> 00:27:50.753 Here's like, what's on deck. 00:27:50.763 --> 00:27:52.213 And then here's everything under that. 00:27:52.743 --> 00:27:57.683 But I think the biggest takeaway from that meeting was that the main 00:27:57.943 --> 00:28:01.903 Reason for doing all of the overhead regarding project assignment and 00:28:01.903 --> 00:28:05.863 project management was for reporting up. 00:28:06.003 --> 00:28:09.473 It was like all about visibility up and like very little about. 00:28:11.143 --> 00:28:13.583 Like internal productivity and like us getting stuff done. 00:28:13.583 --> 00:28:16.853 It was like almost all about like, yeah. 00:28:16.853 --> 00:28:21.303 How do we communicate to other teams, how, and what we're working on. 00:28:21.303 --> 00:28:22.413 And yeah, exactly. 00:28:22.413 --> 00:28:25.483 Like where in the priority does their tasks fall? 00:28:25.943 --> 00:28:29.663 So, but yeah, back to your, one of your earlier points about like, 00:28:29.663 --> 00:28:32.413 when you look at a ticket, you don't know, is this big, is this hard? 00:28:32.413 --> 00:28:33.573 Is this going to take forever? 00:28:33.573 --> 00:28:35.783 Is there like how many unknown unknowns are there? 00:28:35.783 --> 00:28:41.173 And there, that's like a very challenging thing that I don't think I've ever been 00:28:41.173 --> 00:28:43.833 on a team that got super, super right. 00:28:44.243 --> 00:28:47.603 We've done, I've been on teams that have tried the like Fibonacci thing. 00:28:47.603 --> 00:28:49.403 We've tried the t shirt sizing thing. 00:28:49.413 --> 00:28:52.613 We've tried like a bunch of different approaches to measuring tickets. 00:28:52.613 --> 00:28:54.773 I think in my experience. 00:28:56.283 --> 00:29:00.253 Breaking things down as far as possible can be really helpful to 00:29:00.253 --> 00:29:03.183 trying to like estimate out how long something is going to take. 00:29:03.573 --> 00:29:07.023 But yeah, even then there's a lot of times where like you don't know what 00:29:07.023 --> 00:29:08.383 you don't know until you get into it. 00:29:08.403 --> 00:29:12.823 And so roughly what I've been finding is that the projects that we're working on at 00:29:12.823 --> 00:29:19.108 Craftwork When we sit down to like design it or think about it, we might write out 00:29:19.118 --> 00:29:22.538 like 40 tickets or, you know, 35 tickets. 00:29:22.958 --> 00:29:29.098 By the time it's done, we have like 85 tickets or something. 00:29:29.278 --> 00:29:31.898 And so it's like, you know, more than 2x the number that 00:29:31.898 --> 00:29:32.908 we thought we were going to do. 00:29:33.428 --> 00:29:37.948 And of those 85, like 15 of them end up just like never being done. 00:29:38.333 --> 00:29:38.663 Ever. 00:29:38.693 --> 00:29:40.843 They're just like stuff that we thought we were going to do that ends up in 00:29:40.843 --> 00:29:45.803 this bucket of like, yeah, nice to have, but not happening until like, yeah. 00:29:45.803 --> 00:29:49.373 So like a project, like the priority of the project is actually, there's like a 00:29:49.393 --> 00:29:54.273 cut line where like, after you've finished a certain amount of the work related 00:29:54.273 --> 00:29:58.023 to a project, it's like, okay, we're cutting right here because there's work. 00:29:58.023 --> 00:29:59.233 That's part of another project. 00:29:59.243 --> 00:30:00.333 That's actually higher than this. 00:30:00.353 --> 00:30:02.763 And so maybe someday we'll come back to these 15, 00:30:03.023 --> 00:30:04.753 Colin: those are listed as fast follows. 00:30:04.763 --> 00:30:07.453 And then how often does the fast follow actually happen? 00:30:07.463 --> 00:30:08.903 And yeah, yeah. 00:30:08.913 --> 00:30:10.143 That sounds very similar. 00:30:10.563 --> 00:30:14.023 I do like, I'm sure that there's research being done on this, but 00:30:14.023 --> 00:30:18.723 it's like that I've been able to point to in any project I've been in. 00:30:19.353 --> 00:30:23.033 I think what I'm coming to terms with on our, Team is that like, there 00:30:23.043 --> 00:30:29.003 is enough stuff going on for like a full time air traffic controller. 00:30:29.073 --> 00:30:35.163 Like, I guess that's a project manager really at the end of the day, but because 00:30:35.163 --> 00:30:40.143 of we're like parallel to every other team and there's things that can pop 00:30:40.143 --> 00:30:44.943 up tomorrow that need to go out next week that moves everything around. 00:30:44.943 --> 00:30:49.543 And so like the issue is right now we do the traffic controlling and the work 00:30:50.173 --> 00:30:51.943 and the follow ups and all that stuff. 00:30:51.943 --> 00:30:52.873 And so things get. 00:30:53.383 --> 00:30:55.603 You know, it's just hard to keep everything in sync. 00:30:55.603 --> 00:30:58.563 And I've still got note cards that I write things on. 00:30:58.573 --> 00:31:01.133 And I've still got a sauna notion. 00:31:01.133 --> 00:31:04.343 And very similarly, a lot of the Asana stuff, like using the built 00:31:04.343 --> 00:31:09.183 in project updates and project like analytics and stuff will be interesting. 00:31:09.193 --> 00:31:12.483 We've never used those as DevRel, but like being able to do like a weekly 00:31:12.483 --> 00:31:15.773 recap that goes up to people above us. 00:31:15.773 --> 00:31:17.143 So they know what we're working on. 00:31:17.643 --> 00:31:21.023 I think you mentioned like, was it 15 fives in the past? 00:31:21.153 --> 00:31:22.223 CJ: Yeah, 515s. 00:31:22.243 --> 00:31:22.803 Yeah, yeah, 00:31:23.048 --> 00:31:23.768 Colin: those kinds of things. 00:31:23.768 --> 00:31:28.028 I think we, we used an app called 15 five at panty drop and like, that was 00:31:28.028 --> 00:31:30.288 nice to like, what did you do this week? 00:31:30.298 --> 00:31:34.308 Cause there are some weeks where I do so much little tiny things, 00:31:34.718 --> 00:31:36.998 but if you then told me like, what was your impact this week? 00:31:36.998 --> 00:31:38.248 I'd be like, shit. 00:31:39.418 --> 00:31:43.228 Like, I know all those things needed to get done, but if we looked at like 00:31:43.228 --> 00:31:47.648 the core priorities of either our team or the company or whatever, did I move 00:31:47.648 --> 00:31:49.718 towards that or did I just like shuffled? 00:31:50.073 --> 00:31:52.663 deck chairs around on the Titanic type of situation. 00:31:53.193 --> 00:31:54.653 And so you don't always want to get caught. 00:31:54.683 --> 00:31:57.973 Obviously there's tasks that need to get done that roll up to 00:31:57.973 --> 00:32:01.753 someone else's priority that is core to the business and stuff. 00:32:02.253 --> 00:32:07.083 But just so that you feel like you have like autonomy and purpose and 00:32:07.083 --> 00:32:12.383 all that, it's like, you also want to be able to knock off like rewrite 00:32:12.383 --> 00:32:16.528 of the docs you've been trying to do or the migration of the enums, Right. 00:32:16.528 --> 00:32:18.758 So that you can put it behind you and say it's done. 00:32:20.553 --> 00:32:20.883 CJ: Yeah. 00:32:21.683 --> 00:32:25.593 I think a lot of it too, on the tactical side, not on the project 00:32:25.603 --> 00:32:29.483 management side, a lot of it is about energy and enthusiasm and like 00:32:29.783 --> 00:32:31.123 how pumped you are to do the work. 00:32:31.123 --> 00:32:34.703 And if you open up that project list, wherever it is, and you're like just 00:32:34.703 --> 00:32:38.013 dreading every single project on there, like you're not going to have a good 00:32:38.013 --> 00:32:39.483 time and you're probably going to leave. 00:32:39.943 --> 00:32:44.443 So like having a mix of like stuff that you're pumped about and stuff 00:32:44.443 --> 00:32:48.018 you're, That, you know, like your vegetables, but also you got to 00:32:48.028 --> 00:32:49.408 have a cookie every once in a while. 00:32:49.418 --> 00:32:54.098 That's like, all right let's just like, you know, play with the CSS 00:32:54.348 --> 00:32:57.618 animation on this, in this button that's buried somewhere, you know? 00:32:58.128 --> 00:32:58.518 So 00:32:58.708 --> 00:33:01.408 Colin: I've been thinking about it more and more like a conductor of an 00:33:01.408 --> 00:33:05.098 orchestra where you have space and noise. 00:33:05.098 --> 00:33:05.308 Right. 00:33:05.308 --> 00:33:08.988 And so you have space between the notes is what makes it into music. 00:33:08.998 --> 00:33:14.568 If they all play at once without any thought, then it's not going to be good. 00:33:15.108 --> 00:33:15.818 And. 00:33:16.463 --> 00:33:19.023 Yeah, you have to have some small wins. 00:33:19.043 --> 00:33:25.573 It can't just be the big, huge, you know, maximum effort tasks after, like you 00:33:25.573 --> 00:33:27.473 can't run a marathon over and over again. 00:33:27.473 --> 00:33:31.093 There's gotta be some like tasks to come back and just clean some stuff up 00:33:31.093 --> 00:33:35.353 that we knew we needed to do and come back and maybe even just do a small bug 00:33:35.353 --> 00:33:37.103 fix that people have been asking for. 00:33:37.113 --> 00:33:38.143 And everyone's like, Oh, thank. 00:33:38.353 --> 00:33:41.933 You know, that, that might get more attention than the big 00:33:41.993 --> 00:33:45.113 scary thing, but the big scary thing also still needs to happen. 00:33:45.613 --> 00:33:50.003 So kind of having like some good little stop stopping points along the 00:33:50.003 --> 00:33:54.343 way where you can look backwards and just take a break or, or switch gears 00:33:54.353 --> 00:33:56.913 and, and intentionally context switch. 00:33:56.923 --> 00:33:59.383 Cause yeah, to your point, you're going to burn out. 00:33:59.433 --> 00:34:01.383 You're going to leave if not. 00:34:01.773 --> 00:34:02.133 So 00:34:03.823 --> 00:34:06.343 CJ: you feeling like, or I guess I'm curious like where 00:34:06.343 --> 00:34:10.793 you get your inspiration and motivation and vision from? 00:34:10.823 --> 00:34:15.203 Is it like the company, you know, the CEO is like writing some vision 00:34:15.213 --> 00:34:18.703 doc and then you're taking that and deciding what projects to do? 00:34:19.073 --> 00:34:21.893 Are you working with directly with like product managers from 00:34:21.893 --> 00:34:23.453 other teams to decide what to do? 00:34:23.453 --> 00:34:26.453 Like kind of where does, where does your remit, I guess, come from? 00:34:26.783 --> 00:34:30.213 Colin: yeah, for me, it's mostly going to be from product and they've 00:34:30.213 --> 00:34:33.843 already done all of the up the chain to the, all the way up to 00:34:33.843 --> 00:34:36.493 the CTO and CEO and done all that. 00:34:36.823 --> 00:34:40.383 So by the time it gets to us, it's like, this is what we're focusing on 00:34:40.403 --> 00:34:43.203 either quarter or half a year at a time. 00:34:43.283 --> 00:34:46.563 And so like, we kind of know like what things we're going to be releasing. 00:34:47.153 --> 00:34:50.893 What things do we need to monitor and join product meetings and talk 00:34:50.893 --> 00:34:54.973 to developers and stuff ahead of time, start getting docs ready. 00:34:54.983 --> 00:34:57.653 Is the feature done enough that we can start docs? 00:34:57.663 --> 00:34:59.273 Can we get the engineers to write the docs? 00:34:59.773 --> 00:35:01.033 So we can edit them. 00:35:01.583 --> 00:35:04.363 So yeah, it kind of goes in waves like that. 00:35:04.363 --> 00:35:08.193 And then we get like PRS for stuff that just might not be correct anymore. 00:35:08.193 --> 00:35:12.173 So there's, there's the less vision stuff, but the vision of like, 00:35:12.173 --> 00:35:14.923 we want to have a good developer platform or good experience. 00:35:14.923 --> 00:35:16.638 So like if the docs are wrong, let's correct them. 00:35:17.168 --> 00:35:20.998 Go get some quick wins and review and merge some PRs and ship some 00:35:20.998 --> 00:35:22.558 new docs and stuff like that. 00:35:26.373 --> 00:35:28.433 CJ: Yeah, it's, it's a tough balance to strike. 00:35:28.533 --> 00:35:32.973 And yeah, like I think I've at least. 00:35:33.483 --> 00:35:37.233 Enjoy building stuff really quickly for people that I'm like 00:35:37.233 --> 00:35:38.683 interacting with day to day. 00:35:38.683 --> 00:35:43.973 And so, yeah, it can be, it can be challenging if the vision comes down 00:35:43.973 --> 00:35:47.563 from like super, super high up that field might feel disconnected from 00:35:47.563 --> 00:35:49.373 what, what you're seeing on the ground. 00:35:49.573 --> 00:35:51.963 And so yeah, I don't know, but yeah. 00:35:52.678 --> 00:35:55.728 Colin: Well, in smaller companies, like you are closer to, like, 00:35:55.778 --> 00:35:57.298 the whole team can be in. 00:35:59.493 --> 00:36:02.323 CJ: yeah, yeah, yeah, that is, that is nice. 00:36:02.723 --> 00:36:06.143 Colin: versus like a discord, a stripe slack, like not everyone's 00:36:06.153 --> 00:36:07.203 going to be in the same room. 00:36:07.563 --> 00:36:12.133 So the vision can change and game a telephone and all sorts of stuff. 00:36:14.548 --> 00:36:16.588 CJ: Yeah, totally. 00:36:17.138 --> 00:36:18.488 What else is going on? 00:36:18.488 --> 00:36:20.208 We already talked about DevRelCon. 00:36:20.848 --> 00:36:22.838 Have you ever read that book, Steal Like an Artist? 00:36:23.773 --> 00:36:25.113 Colin: Don't think so. 00:36:25.523 --> 00:36:30.443 Still like an artist from Austin Cleon clone. 00:36:30.968 --> 00:36:31.418 CJ: Yeah. 00:36:32.853 --> 00:36:33.373 Colin: How is it? 00:36:33.608 --> 00:36:41.458 CJ: So Mike sent me this book and I had, apparently I had read it before. 00:36:41.468 --> 00:36:42.038 I, I don't know. 00:36:42.048 --> 00:36:43.738 On my Goodreads it said that I had already read it. 00:36:43.738 --> 00:36:46.628 I, I might've listened to it, but this was the first time like 00:36:46.628 --> 00:36:48.448 reading the physical version. 00:36:48.498 --> 00:36:49.738 And I. 00:36:50.033 --> 00:36:50.923 Really liked it. 00:36:50.923 --> 00:36:54.043 I thought it was kind of, it was like a fun read and the way that 00:36:54.043 --> 00:36:55.243 it was laid out was kind of fun. 00:36:55.723 --> 00:36:59.513 He also has another book, I think it's called like newspaper poems or something 00:36:59.513 --> 00:37:03.233 like this, where he kind of like takes a newspaper and then uses a Sharpie 00:37:03.233 --> 00:37:05.683 to like black out parts of the words. 00:37:05.713 --> 00:37:08.473 And so what remains, it becomes like a poem. 00:37:08.473 --> 00:37:11.933 So it was like taking some other thing and then doing that. 00:37:12.023 --> 00:37:15.593 So there's like a lot of artistic little kind of blurbs and tear 00:37:15.593 --> 00:37:17.703 outs and ways to look at stuff. 00:37:17.713 --> 00:37:19.293 But Yeah, I really enjoyed it. 00:37:19.293 --> 00:37:21.983 I thought there was good reminders in there. 00:37:22.143 --> 00:37:28.143 For example, like figuring out people you draw inspiration from for like 00:37:28.143 --> 00:37:32.573 anything, like in, in my case, I was thinking a lot about like devs that 00:37:32.573 --> 00:37:36.333 I look up to and have kind of like followed their career over time. 00:37:36.613 --> 00:37:41.663 You know, major, you know, major folks like Jim Weirich and Sandy Metz and 00:37:42.303 --> 00:37:47.388 Gary Bernhardt, also like content creators, Ryan Bates, Abdi Grimm Kent 00:37:47.388 --> 00:37:52.468 Dodds, and then also, you know, people who I've worked with or collaborated 00:37:52.468 --> 00:37:57.198 with who I thought had like just insane work ethic and high productivity and 00:37:57.198 --> 00:37:58.328 we're just like really successful. 00:37:58.748 --> 00:38:02.048 But one of the recommendations was like, go find the people who you look up to 00:38:02.048 --> 00:38:05.148 and then figure out who are, who are the people that they looked up to and 00:38:05.148 --> 00:38:08.978 kind of like follow the family tree up and do research and try to figure out 00:38:08.978 --> 00:38:14.373 kind of like, The foundational reasons that, or, you know, kind of like core 00:38:14.373 --> 00:38:16.033 values that might've driven that. 00:38:16.143 --> 00:38:18.493 So that was kind of interesting to think about and also like think about 00:38:18.503 --> 00:38:25.503 areas where I might be curious to find some more folks to like learn 00:38:25.503 --> 00:38:27.853 about and maybe be inspired by. 00:38:28.323 --> 00:38:30.143 Colin: Yeah, I think this book comes up a lot. 00:38:31.233 --> 00:38:34.413 Along with the war of arts as well. 00:38:34.583 --> 00:38:37.313 Cause I think a lot of it also comes down to like motivation, 00:38:37.313 --> 00:38:41.523 inspiration, creativity, and like, are you getting it from other people? 00:38:41.523 --> 00:38:42.593 Like every thought. 00:38:42.973 --> 00:38:43.213 Right. 00:38:43.223 --> 00:38:47.863 Even when we talk about ideas on here, it's like, we get afraid that someone's 00:38:47.863 --> 00:38:49.813 going to steal our idea and go and do it. 00:38:49.903 --> 00:38:50.193 Right. 00:38:50.193 --> 00:38:53.463 And everything is a copy of something at some point. 00:38:53.473 --> 00:38:57.533 It's like, is it even once I have like an idea for something, I 00:38:57.533 --> 00:38:59.973 know there's like 10 other people who are probably thinking on it. 00:38:59.983 --> 00:39:03.643 Maybe are they actually doing it as a whole other question? 00:39:03.643 --> 00:39:06.393 Like, do you, cause it takes a lot to do something. 00:39:06.413 --> 00:39:09.963 So I do wonder, like, I'll have to read this book, but I wonder. 00:39:10.618 --> 00:39:12.718 How this is framed. 00:39:12.788 --> 00:39:14.678 Like, have you, are you in the middle of reading it? 00:39:16.123 --> 00:39:17.493 CJ: no, I finished, I finished it. 00:39:17.593 --> 00:39:17.993 Yeah. 00:39:18.493 --> 00:39:22.583 Colin: Does it apply at all to the literal steel, like an artist of AI and, and 00:39:24.893 --> 00:39:26.043 CJ: that's interesting. 00:39:26.403 --> 00:39:28.263 It, it actually, it perfectly does. 00:39:28.283 --> 00:39:33.223 And here's how, so I think like one of the most core tenants of the book 00:39:33.223 --> 00:39:38.323 is basically this concept of like an artist doesn't just like, Imitate 00:39:38.693 --> 00:39:41.713 a, like the same exact artist. 00:39:41.843 --> 00:39:43.643 Like they're, they're not going to pick one person and 00:39:43.643 --> 00:39:44.803 do something just like them. 00:39:45.153 --> 00:39:49.233 What they're doing is like looking at a whole field, like a whole bunch 00:39:49.233 --> 00:39:53.493 of different artists and looking at each piece and saying, what's the one 00:39:53.493 --> 00:39:55.093 thing that I really like about that. 00:39:55.503 --> 00:39:59.403 And in stealing like just the good bits and then remixing it to be 00:39:59.403 --> 00:40:04.063 their own thing, instead of just being like, okay, I see, you know, 00:40:04.093 --> 00:40:05.473 Colin's got that really cool. 00:40:05.728 --> 00:40:08.198 Hat on, I'm going to put on the same exact yellow hat. 00:40:08.208 --> 00:40:09.378 It's like, okay, cool. 00:40:09.378 --> 00:40:12.628 You're not, you know, you didn't really come up with your own thing, but yeah. 00:40:12.628 --> 00:40:18.218 And so in that way, I do think that AI, because it is combining so many different 00:40:18.218 --> 00:40:21.788 sources, like it is steel, like steel, like, I guess it's like steel, like an 00:40:21.798 --> 00:40:25.268 LLM, you know, just like yeah, exactly. 00:40:25.358 --> 00:40:25.868 Yeah. 00:40:25.998 --> 00:40:26.588 Colin: Interesting. 00:40:26.718 --> 00:40:31.743 CJ: but it was, it was interesting to me because I, I think oftentimes, When 00:40:31.753 --> 00:40:36.613 people are learning how to code, they say, Oh, I want to build clones of things. 00:40:36.613 --> 00:40:41.463 And it's a great way to learn, like, let me build a clone of Reddit or let 00:40:41.463 --> 00:40:45.383 me build a clone of Facebook, or let me build a clone of, you know, Netflix 00:40:45.383 --> 00:40:48.363 or something, just to try to get an idea of like, how would they go about 00:40:48.363 --> 00:40:51.913 writing the CSS and structuring the data model and building out the backend 00:40:51.913 --> 00:40:55.243 and whatever of all these different platforms, it's a great way to learn. 00:40:55.773 --> 00:40:57.933 Like little tools and tricks. 00:40:58.213 --> 00:41:02.133 But then at the end of the day, being able to take all of those pieces 00:41:02.153 --> 00:41:07.303 and instead of making something that mirrors perfectly someone else's site, 00:41:07.633 --> 00:41:13.713 you want to be able to make your own site that has, you know, the, all of 00:41:13.713 --> 00:41:17.393 the best parts or what you think are the best parts of those other sites. 00:41:17.403 --> 00:41:17.823 So 00:41:17.853 --> 00:41:19.853 Colin: goes into the, the buckets thing. 00:41:19.863 --> 00:41:23.153 Like there are so many financial tools out there. 00:41:23.163 --> 00:41:26.113 And then like, we're like, well, we want to do it a little bit differently. 00:41:26.563 --> 00:41:29.883 And I had to laugh because I was listening to mostly technical and I 00:41:29.883 --> 00:41:35.673 guess Aaron Francis is also building his own tool, but like only for himself. 00:41:35.803 --> 00:41:38.383 And it's also going to be a project management tool. 00:41:38.383 --> 00:41:41.083 And also it's like a super app for themselves. 00:41:41.603 --> 00:41:44.333 And there's like, I just don't like the way that most people. 00:41:44.558 --> 00:41:45.288 do these things. 00:41:45.318 --> 00:41:49.538 And Ian was actually using a new tool that I'll have to find that 00:41:49.928 --> 00:41:54.418 does what a lot of these tools do, but doesn't do the budgeting piece. 00:41:54.938 --> 00:41:59.188 Because like, unfortunately, and fortunately, once you hit like 00:41:59.208 --> 00:42:02.718 a certain income, like you just need to make sure that the buckets 00:42:02.718 --> 00:42:04.328 are right, literally, right. 00:42:04.338 --> 00:42:06.488 Instead of the indiscreet. 00:42:08.353 --> 00:42:12.373 Like, do you want to categorize 20 transactions or do you want to 00:42:12.373 --> 00:42:13.483 just make sure the buckets, right? 00:42:13.993 --> 00:42:16.953 So good name, by the way, TJ, 00:42:17.563 --> 00:42:17.963 CJ: Yeah. 00:42:20.263 --> 00:42:20.573 Yeah. 00:42:20.603 --> 00:42:20.893 Buckets. 00:42:20.893 --> 00:42:21.723 cjav. 00:42:21.723 --> 00:42:22.033 dev. 00:42:22.033 --> 00:42:24.633 We're, we're, we're, I don't know, maybe we've got to put up a domain for that 00:42:24.633 --> 00:42:27.263 thing and just like let people run loose. 00:42:27.293 --> 00:42:32.043 I, I hit up Stripe again with some feedback and we'll see what they say, 00:42:32.043 --> 00:42:36.223 but yeah, things are just still not working as expected, so I don't know. 00:42:36.283 --> 00:42:38.573 We'll see if it ever lands, 00:42:38.873 --> 00:42:41.813 Colin: I'm hoping to have some more time to work on that and some other 00:42:41.813 --> 00:42:45.533 fun projects trying to get back into, I think we've talked about so many 00:42:45.543 --> 00:42:49.693 project ideas on here, the conference room, booking and calendaring and 00:42:49.703 --> 00:42:51.113 I'm feeling, feeling the itch. 00:42:51.123 --> 00:42:54.443 I need to steal like an artist a little bit and just make some stuff, 00:42:54.443 --> 00:42:58.053 even if it's not a net new thing, like just working on buckets and like, 00:42:58.053 --> 00:42:59.633 we know what we kind of want to see. 00:43:00.203 --> 00:43:02.883 I still am using co pilot very like. 00:43:03.293 --> 00:43:07.703 I don't do the transaction recording like I did the first month or two 00:43:07.703 --> 00:43:12.943 that I did it, but seeing the buckets and how it works has been helpful. 00:43:13.623 --> 00:43:17.193 But still stuff I would do differently and buckets itself. 00:43:19.173 --> 00:43:20.183 And yeah. 00:43:21.418 --> 00:43:23.518 I think there's, there's a big topic that we'll be able to talk about 00:43:23.518 --> 00:43:27.218 in a future episode as it pertains to co working spaces again, and 00:43:27.228 --> 00:43:30.888 business and, and all that stuff. 00:43:30.928 --> 00:43:33.288 But I think we can probably leave it there. 00:43:34.483 --> 00:43:36.403 CJ: Yeah, there's your there's your cliffhanger. 00:43:36.413 --> 00:43:37.473 So you got to stay tuned. 00:43:38.923 --> 00:43:39.173 Yeah. 00:43:39.173 --> 00:43:40.143 Follow for part two. 00:43:40.638 --> 00:43:41.328 Colin: Yes. 00:43:41.508 --> 00:43:42.528 Well, good hanging out. 00:43:42.528 --> 00:43:44.248 Where can people find notes for the show? 00:43:45.313 --> 00:43:45.593 CJ: Yeah. 00:43:45.593 --> 00:43:47.133 Head over to buildandlearn. 00:43:47.133 --> 00:43:47.723 dev. 00:43:47.763 --> 00:43:50.783 And yeah, we'll drop links to all the resources we talked about. 00:43:50.923 --> 00:43:54.223 And yeah, we'll catch you in your earbuds next time. 00:43:54.613 --> 00:43:54.873 Thanks for 00:43:54.898 --> 00:43:55.598 Colin: Bye friends.