Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Joanne: Hello
Anke: and welcome, Jo.
I'm very happy to have you here.
Joanne: Oh, thank you, Anke.
I'm really, really happy to be here.
Anke: Wonderful.
So let's start how we always start.
Share with people where in this lovely world you are, and so
what's your business with dogs?
Joanne: I am in, I'm very fortunate, I'm in the beautiful,
in beautiful Noosa, which is in Queensland, which is in Australia.
So we're in our spring season right now.
It's lovely.
I've been to Noosa, I'm like
Anke: jealous.
Joanne: It's, it's a big destination, tourist destination spot.
So at the moment, it's school holidays in Australia.
So we're pretty busy here at the moment.
Yeah.
And my business is called Paw and Order Noosa.
Um, I love that show.
And, um, yeah, so I started about four years ago.
Actually, it started during COVID.
There was a need for people to do online dog training.
Oh, so
Anke: it's
Joanne: a
Anke: COVID puppy.
Yeah, it is
Joanne: a
Anke: COVID puppy.
It's a COVID baby.
Yes.
Okay, so now tell us about, you specialize in, in something that I think a lot
of people on my list might have heard about because you know, it's sort of
come up a little bit, but probably don't know an awful lot about it.
Joanne: Yeah, yep, that's right.
I specialize in ACE being Animal Centred Education, free work.
That is the brainchild of the amazing Sarah Fisher.
Um, over in Bath in the UK, she's got this beautiful farm called
Chilli Farm and um, I was fortunate enough to go there earlier this year.
It was a huge trip, but it was wonderful.
So I am studying with Sarah.
I'm, um, doing her courses.
So I went there for one of the practical modules, practical
components of one of my modules.
And that was a life changing experience.
It was just fantastic.
You can learn from books.
You can learn from videos.
But when you're actually there, It's something different and it is magical.
And just inspired me even more to keep following this.
Um, speaking to Sarah and there is actually no one else in Australia
who, um, practices or is authorized to use the Animal Centred name.
And I've been, I'm just blessed that Sarah has given me her authorization to go
ahead, fly the ace flag here in Australia.
So, um, Ace Free Work is all my sessions that I do with clients
is all about Ace Free Work.
Anke: Okay, do you want to unpack a little bit of what that means?
Joanne: Yeah, sure.
So free work is, um, so first of all, free work was developed by
Sarah a couple of decades ago.
She was working with the dogs at Battersea Dogs Home.
It's a rescue there.
And she realized a lot of the dogs had sensory issues.
Uh, like to be touched, things like that.
Um, and Sarah has a background in human, um, massage anatomy and physiology.
And she, um, also took the teachings of, uh, I think her name is some pet.
Oh, you know what?
You can cut that out, but I can find out who that is.
Um, who does sensory education with children.
So she sort of looked at that model and thought, why can't we use that with dogs?
So she started putting different surfaces underfoot for these dogs who had trouble,
had struggled, um, and then when the dogs realized there was nothing to fear
from different textures underfoot, they were more accepting of human touch.
Anke: So it's really about sort of bringing that stress level down, right?
It is,
Joanne: yep.
And free work, so it's, it's, we set up free work.
So free work is, um, it's a low level activity, um, exercise, I should say, and
it works on eight senses that the dog has.
We definitely work with the nervous system, trying to get the dog into
kind of the parasympathetic nervous system where they can just relax.
Well, you know, relax and digest is what that's for.
So there is, we do put food in the station.
So stations are things like, you know, licky mats, snuffle mats.
We, um, we put them on different heights, depending on the dog, angle the station's
different surfaces on the floor.
And everything's tailored is bespoke for that particular dog.
And we, within that free work, the dog is got, we try not to
have any equipment on the dog.
I call it naked.
So we have naked dogs.
And, um, you're imagining, oh, there's a nudist colony in my house, but no.
Um, so they get, go around.
So sometimes the equipment can, um, hamper.
their movement, like can hinder the way they move.
And it's also, FreeWorks is also a good way to introduce equipment to
dogs that may be a little bit worried about collars, harnesses, things like
that, because the dogs, um, calmer.
And, um, we, and it's really good for introducing novel items as well.
Anke: So you put it just in there.
So bottom line, like, can I just kind of sort of summarize with the area that
is kind of closed off some way, so the dog can't just run off sort of thing.
That's right.
Yeah.
Stuff in it, right?
So different, you know, kind of, um, cause I've seen videos, right.
And the first one, you know, and so, and then the dogs kind of sort of let loose
in there and can do their own thing.
They can just tinker around at their own pace.
pace and like they just explore what they feel drawn to, but there's just
no interaction, we don't talk to them, like there's nothing, like they're just
literally sort of on their own, just like your job is to observe, right?
Joanne: Yeah, that's part of our job, um, so yes, you're right, we do put things
down, um, we, a big part of Ace Free Work is observation, so we met, and so
within Free Work, the dog will, um, So backing that up, sorry, a little bit.
Yes, the dog's free to explore, um, dogs being scavengers and,
um, they love to, um, seek dogs.
It's a natural thing for dogs to seek.
It triggers a seeking in the dog, so it allows them to feel
safe because they're being dogs.
You know, doing dog behavior makes dogs feel safe.
Dogs really can't achieve anything until they feel safe.
So it makes them feel safe.
It gives them a choice.
They get a choice, you know, and that is, really makes dogs feel safe to
have some control and some choice.
So, they go around and they do, they use all their senses.
They use their noses, they use, you know, um, which is
the most important, obviously.
There's, you know, touch, there's every sense that, and we tailor that with the
stations that we actually put in there.
Um, and it has lots of applications.
But yeah, the dog goes in, we, we watch.
We watch how the dog is moving, um, I usually video every session.
So afterwards I can, like today I was working at the local RSPCA rescue.
I try to do that once a week and just help out some of the dogs there.
Um, video the session, take it home, put it on slow motion.
I can really get a good look at the dog then.
Um, and just see if there's any inconsistencies, maybe
structurally balanced.
You can see it a lot better when the dog's moving, you know, more slowly and calmly.
Then you can And we do encourage the, what we do, or probably the caregiver
more than us, to go in and work with the dog, to engage with the dog.
Anke: Yeah.
So what do you, like,
okay, let me just back up one question I have.
Yes.
But I've seen a video with Sarah, like doing this and I'm like, oh, I would
never see all the stuff she sees.
So, if I don't have a background, you know, in that, like, body
work, you know, do I have a chance?
Yes.
Joanne: It's, yeah.
Well, it's, Sarah does seem to have, um, an innate, natural, organic gift of
making these observations and her thought processes too about how dogs function is,
is much more developed than most of us.
That's the whole point though, of us going through her courses, it's, it's learning.
So, that is teachable though.
Oh yes, definitely.
Every course, like I've just finished yesterday, the um, practical component.
Yeah, thank you.
Of module three.
Part of that is I film my dog.
Doing free work.
We go within a group.
We do a Zoom.
I mean, I'd like to be at Tilly Farm, but I can't do it for every module.
We do a Zoom and we literally put that on slow motion and we go
through and we make observations.
So, you know, obviously my observation skills aren't nearly as good as Sarah's
or my tutor in my course, but seeing what they're talking about and like, Oh, right.
I see what you're saying.
Definitely helps to, to educate us on what we're saying.
And
Anke: even, even like the, the dog owners say, if I do that with my dogs.
Without taking the cause, there's still something like
that will be still helpful to me.
Oh, for sure.
Joanne: Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Engaging all those, um, senses and all those, yeah, it's just great for your dog.
And just giving your dog the chance to reset, pretty much.
Yeah.
And giving them choice.
That's what dogs need is choice.
Yeah.
Anke: Yeah.
So you mentioned, okay, observation is one part, but you can also
go in and work with them.
So what does that mean?
What do you do with them?
And what's, like, what's the point, like, what are you achieving there?
Joanne: Yeah, exactly.
So as a dog, I don't like to call myself a dog trainer.
I like to call myself a dog educator now, because, um, what I do is, encourage the
caregivers, the owners of the dogs, to do this within the free work setting.
So I, I enable them to teach their dogs life skills, things
like recall, which we know is so important for dogs to come back.
And I mean, the basis of a good recall is for your dog to trust you
and you to trust your dog and that your relationship's really good.
And your dog wants to come back to you.
So we start that by doing, um, games with the dog within free work, things
like Chirag Patel's counting game.
And his bucket game, things like that we will use.
So basically it's your dog coming, you go around the station, you can do the
counting game where you one, you know, and, and the dog's like, Oh, okay.
Every time she does that, she puts a treat in, but the dog is always free to opt out.
That's the whole point of free work.
The dog is free to opt out.
And we encourage them to do that because by realizing they have a choice.
they can then start to self regulate and make better choices.
I love that.
I
Anke: love
Joanne: that.
Yeah.
It's not this like,
Anke: you know, sitzplatz kind of thing, you know?
No.
So basically you go in there with the dog and then do these games.
So, so they, but they basically with you.
But if they, I think it's also great.
I mean, them having a choice, I think it's, it's so helpful in so many levels,
but I think it teaches us also where, where they're limited, you know, when
they get bored, you know, throwing balls with my dogs when after like the 50th
time they go like, Oh, for God's sake,
catch that on Zuno when they can walk away, right.
Joanne: Yeah, and I, that's actually part of, one of my favorite parts
of free work is watching the different dogs do different things
and we call them finishing cues.
They will, they will do things to show you that they're finished now.
We have also found that free work usually takes around 15 to 17 minutes.
That's about the limit.
Which gets you thinking, what else do dogs only need to do 15 to 17 minutes?
So yeah, it's really interesting.
And if we then look at the model of the street dogs or free living
dogs, there's a lot of that that correlates to them as well.
So yeah, within, within free work we can, um, With the finishing cues, like
some dogs, it's a little bit tricky to work out whether they're done or not.
My dog will tend to go around for her, she's textbook 15 to 18 minutes.
She'll look at me, I'm like, oh, you might be finished, she'll have a drink.
She will look outside the door and she'll come back and lie down in front of me.
Like, I'm done.
Other dogs will go and Counter surf.
They'll jump up on the bench and have a look.
Why?
There's food up there, yes, but there's food in the, in the free work as well.
Oh, that's right.
Yeah, it is quite amazing.
So do you have
Anke: like a station, uh, kind of set up that's permanently kind of
set up that you change around a bit or how would that normally work?
Or do people, and at what point, like what do I, what can I do at
home and what do I come to you for?
Joanne: Yeah, so
it's probably good to come to me first, um, to learn What, what
stations your dog will benefit from.
And also for me to do some, so if you're coming to me because your dog's
reactive or your dog's got a particular behavior that you'd like looked at,
um, because something like reactivity.
So, 82 percent of dogs who display reactive behavior are in chronic pain.
So that's usually, you know, reason for, you know, different behaviors.
So I can then, they come to me, I observe the dog, or you can do it online.
I can do it online.
Um, observe your dog and say, yeah, yeah, definitely.
Um, and observe the dog and say, it may be worth a veterinary visit.
Or maybe just, you know, go see the chiropractor or physio, because I
think I'm seeing something here.
That's the most important thing to do first.
And then I will work with you to, obviously, depending on what the
professional, the vet has said, um, I'll work with you then to
set up stations that are going to make your dog more comfortable.
And if it's a physio, like my dog needs physios, and the, and the
vet suggested doing cavaletties and sit to stands on a raised platform,
we do that within free work.
So again, she's free to opt out if she'd like to.
And, um, yeah, it's great.
She does it within there.
And yeah, so then, um, I would say that to you.
So these are the kind of stations, but don't have always the same stations.
Move them around.
You know, it's like any kind of physio.
You need to be moving those muscles up and down and around,
not just one static station.
And, um, I myself, I'm very fortunate.
I have a room that I just have free work set up in all the time.
It doesn't need to be expensive.
People can find things probably in their home to use.
Um, you know, dollar shops or, um, you know, like opportunity shops or something
like that will have things that you need.
Always important though to have non slippery floors.
Anke: Yes.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah.
Joanne: And we offer things at different heights.
Like, sorry, I was going to say, you put water bowls, two water
bowls in there, different heights.
So you know which one your dog prefers.
Anke: Oh, I think that's also like, which food do they like, you
know, what do they actually go for?
Right.
I think that's so interesting.
Joanne: That's right.
So we encourage people to put different flavors, textures,
sizes of food in there for them.
Obviously we recommend, you know, take a certain amount of your dog's
daily diet out because you don't want them to put on weight doing it.
Um, but yeah, and licky surfaces, you, we have licky surfaces.
You can use all different things on that.
You can use anything, peanut butter, oils, um, cheese, not too much of that, but
you know, anything that your dog likes.
Yeah, for sure.
And we include crunchy items as well to chew on because some dogs.
Well, all dogs find chewing obviously a de stressor, but some dogs don't
feel that they can carry on in the session until they've chewed.
Some dogs will wait till the end of the session and then chew.
Some dogs do it in the middle.
Yeah.
Sarah tells the story of one dog that wasn't able to cope at all,
would just stand there watching everyone until they'd stopped chewing.
gave it tooth and the dog would chew and then just go
and engage with the free work.
Anke: That's incredible.
So you have to literally listen to your dog, like kind of, even at the
start, figure out like, what is it that makes this interesting and fun for you?
And that's also a really good,
Joanne: that's right.
Yes, you do it with them, which is strengthening your bond and
your relationship with your dog.
And it's creating also a lot of trust between the both of you.
Cause the dog sees you enabling it.
Yeah, only one dog at a time.
Anke: You don't put two dogs in there, it's like my two big ones
would kind of run around there.
Joanne: Yeah, no, just, just one at a time for different reasons.
I mean, one of them is like, it can be, if you've got a multi dog
household, that can be your special time with that particular dog.
And that's another interesting thing, thing too.
What we can do in free work is introduce dogs, um, to each other.
Um, so what we do is we will put, um, two se separate, free
works up and, and different areas so they cannot see each other.
They both interact and then you swap them around without meeting
each other, swap them around.
They, they engage in each other's free work settings.
They get the smell.
Yeah.
And then you'll see, you'll be able to slowly move them closer together.
You may get dogs that can get on, or you may never, I mean some dogs
may never want to get on, I mean that's just what happens, but a good
amount of the time the dogs will, yeah, be fine with each other then.
Anke: That's so cool.
I think there's a whole world to discover here.
So where can people go and find out more about it and get in
touch with you and all of that?
Joanne: Yeah, so I, my website will tell you a lot about what I do.
Um, that's, www.
coordinutha.
com.
au You can see me on all the socials.
Facebook, Instagram, YouTube.
I have a YouTube channel.
You'll see a lot of my videos on there.
Warts and all.
That sometimes things don't go smoothly.
And that's great too.
Because we learn from that.
We definitely learn from that.
Um, yeah, so they can, they can call me, they can text me, they,
whatever, yeah, happy to, can do online sessions for people as well.
In the same way, you know, I would, they just need to do videos and
Zooms, things like that with me.
Anke: Yeah.
Joanne: I mean, I guess most people
Anke: probably want to come to Noosa, but it's not always that easy.
Joanne: Yes.
Yeah, that's right.
Um.
It's getting much more popular.
Like free work is becoming much more popular.
People are seeing the benefits, especially like my speciality is reactive dogs.
Um, and I just love seeing the magic that free work brings to reactive dogs.
It's, um, I've had people say, what did you do?
It's like, it's free work magic.
I love it.
Free
Anke: work magic.
I love it.
So all the links, if you're listening, watching, they're going
to be, you know, below in the show notes, in the, in the description.
If you're on the newsletter, obviously it's just right above and below.
So enjoy.
Go check it out.
It's magnificent.
It's just like, it's just like, Yeah, I don't know.
It's just like, I've just seen glimpses of it and I'm like really curious.
So thank you so much for coming and unpacking that a little bit so
people really understand what this is all about and the power it has.
So it has.
Joanne: Thank you so much for giving me that opportunity, Anke.
That's amazing.
Thank you.
Thank
Anke: you.
Joanne: It's amazing.
Amazing.
Thanks so much for listening.
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That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.