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[MUSIC]

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Hello everyone and welcome

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to yet another episode of

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Undercooled, a

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materials education podcast.

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I am your host for today,

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Tim Chambers at the

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University of Michigan.

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But more important than me is an extra

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special guest today.

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We'll have someone who is not in our sort

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of usual group of people

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who are into these things.

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I have brought with me Dave Choberka from

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the University of Michigan Museum of Art.

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Dave, good to have you here.

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Thank you. Good to be here.

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I appreciate the invitation.

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Yeah, I'm hoping that today we can get a

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little bit into more of

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the materiality of art

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and sort of the intersection between art

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and material science.

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Also, what MSC as a field can learn from

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how the art world and

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how the museum world have

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developed these ways of communicating

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with and engaging with the public

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that we can hopefully benefit from in our

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professional practice as engineers.

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Great. Sounds good.

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So to get things started, if you could

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just tell us a little bit about yourself.

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How did you get into the museum field?

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What are you doing at UMA currently?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I think I'll start with what I do

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currently and then sort of tell the

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backstory of how I got

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there because there's a little bit of a,

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there's some sort of

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stories coming to the fruition in

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the position that I'm in right now. So I

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am the curator for

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University Learning and Programs at

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UMA, the University of Michigan Museum of

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Art, which is a job that

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I've been doing really with

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same job, but with various titles since

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2012. And the main part of

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that job is leading our program

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of what we call curricular engagement,

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which is working with

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classes from all disciplines

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across the university and working with

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the instructors of those

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classes to find ways to

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use art at the museum to, like the main

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thing I really try to

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emphasize is advanced learning

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goals within the discipline that the

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students are coming from. I

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also do, I mean, in this job,

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I also do like a lot of our

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collaborations with faculty around

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exhibitions, collaboration with

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researchers on projects that involve art,

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which maybe I'll talk a

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bit more about later on.

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So all kinds of sort of intersections

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between the art museum and

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the university in general.

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The way I got into museum work was

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actually, there was kind of,

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there's kind of a happy story

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of serendipity that happened when I was a

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grad student. I actually

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came to the University of

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Michigan to do my PhD in German studies.

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And that sounds probably

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like some odd leap from

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German studies to museum work, but it's

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actually not. The very first time I

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worked, and so I was,

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I was working, a cultural historian,

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basically in a German studies program.

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And I was hired by a

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curator at the University of Michigan

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Museum of Art to be a

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researcher for a show on German

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expressionism, because they wanted

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somebody that could read German. That was

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the first, I'd never

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even thought about working in museums

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before. But I really

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liked that experience because,

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I was like working in my area of

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expertise, but writing and presenting an

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exhibition for a general

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audience. So I really appreciated sort of

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using things I'd learned,

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but not just communicating

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them to other experts. I liked that. That

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was a great experience. But

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then also, I really enjoyed

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the experience of working with the

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material of a collection, like having

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these objects and create,

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and arranging them in a space in order to

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create experiences that go

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beyond the individual objects.

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So that was a really cool experience. And

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then right after I had that experience,

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the university started their museum

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studies graduate

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certificate program. So there was just

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kind of a happy, like I was like, that

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was a cool experience. And then I like

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learned that there was

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this new museum studies program. So I

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applied to that and got into

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the first cohort. And then,

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and that was what really got me into

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thinking about museums as

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a possible future career.

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And that experience in grad school with

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the museum studies

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certificate program was really pivotal

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in the sort of museum work I do, because

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that that program is very

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intentionally interdisciplinary,

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they they bring in 12 grad students a

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year. And they try to have

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them be from all different

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disciplines. So I was in the first

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cohort. And my colleagues were like,

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there was a there was an

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aerospace engineer in there, there was a

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zoologist, there was a computer science

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person who was really

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interested in sort of creating user apps

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for museums. There were

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only a couple of humanities

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people. So it really being in that

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program really helped me to think about

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the interdisciplinarity

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of museum work and the way that we can

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make all museum work

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relate to multiple disciplines.

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And, and then so I got that certificate.

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And then very soon after

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I finished grad school,

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UMA actually got a grant from the Mellon

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Foundation to create

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the position that I have

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now, specifically with the goal of

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increasing interaction between the Art

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Museum and all sorts

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of learning on campus. And so I got that

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job and have been building

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this program since then. And

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we did some benchmarking studies a few

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years ago for our current

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strategic plan. And we found that

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were the most successful university

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learning program at an art at a

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university art museum in

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terms of the breadth of disciplines that

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we work with, such as the collaboration

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we did with material

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science. Hmm. Well, maybe we'll hear more

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about that shortly. The

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thing that I love about hearing

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your story though, is it's such a great

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reminder that one single

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unexpected experience that you

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have, you know, in a course or in an

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internship or something can completely

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change your outlook on

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your whole career. And you discover this

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new thing that you never

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quite knew existed before. And

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suddenly you're experiencing it and like,

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wow, I would like to do more

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of this, the sorts of things

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we want our students to, you know, have

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when they're working with us. Yeah, you

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know, it's actually,

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it's an interesting point, because one of

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the things I've done off

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and on over the last few

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years is since I have a PhD, but I don't

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work in like a, you know, like a

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traditional academic

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position, I've been invited to do talks

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with grad students about what you know,

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what are often called

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alternate career paths for PhD students.

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And there's so many, so

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many of the other people that

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they invite to talk to talk there, like

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they have this very deliberate story,

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this very like, oh, I

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wanted to do this. So I got this

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credential in order to do this thing. And

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my story is more like

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exactly what you said, like being open to

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experiences and being

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open to like finding new

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directions that just happen to kind of

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come your way and really

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embracing those. Yeah, it always

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blows my mind when some of my students

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actually know what they

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want to do with their lives and

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are intentionally working toward it,

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because I certainly didn't when I was

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that age. But that's

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a story for another time. You mentioned

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the interaction with the

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materials department and

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sort of how you got connected in there.

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So yeah, could you give us

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that part of the backstory of

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Yeah, yeah, that's a so, um, you know,

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back back or sort of early on

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in the job, one of the things

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I did a lot of was just outreach to

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different academic programs

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to be like, we're here, we're

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gonna if you if you want to bring a class

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to the museum, contact me,

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we'll work together to put

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together a very cool experience. And so

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and I'm always like, I've

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always been trying to work with

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disciplines outside what people expect to

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find in an art museum and

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kind of going as far afield. So

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I was I was like, I did some outreach

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with engineering, I

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can't remember exactly what

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contact I had with material science

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people. But then sometime back like a

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year or two before the

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pandemic. You're very active and cool

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graduate student like outreach

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engagement, like club.

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Yep, actually contacted me because they

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had kind of heard about the

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outreach I was doing and the

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work I was doing. And they contacted me

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just to see if there's

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anything that they could do with

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the museum, that would be like, about

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engaging the public with their

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interesting knowledge about the

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materiality of artworks. So we had some

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very cool discussions, and it was going

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to maybe go somewhere

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and then things got derailed by the

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pandemic. And then so because of that

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connection, I actually

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so when we were sort of getting back to

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things at the museum, one

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of the really exciting things

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I've been able to work on since we've

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been back at the museum is

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this ongoing exhibition that we

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call curriculum collection, which is a

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show that I curate with faculty,

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specifically for those

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faculties classes to use as like sort of

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learning material throughout the

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semester. And I'm always

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looking for, as I said, sort of wide

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ranging disciplines to have

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represented in that exhibition,

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because it's a really cool experience for

281
01:08:46,366 --> 01:08:47,733
the general visitor when

282
01:08:47,733 --> 01:08:48,766
they come to an art museum,

283
01:08:48,766 --> 01:08:50,466
and then they see, you know, this stuff's

284
01:08:50,466 --> 01:08:52,566
on display for material science students,

285
01:08:52,866 --> 01:08:54,533
it sort of changes how they think about

286
01:08:54,533 --> 01:08:57,033
things. So I went back

287
01:08:57,033 --> 01:08:59,233
to my contacts with the

288
01:08:59,466 --> 01:09:01,899
grad students and said, you know, I'd

289
01:09:01,899 --> 01:09:03,933
really like to put together something in

290
01:09:03,933 --> 01:09:04,866
curriculum collection

291
01:09:04,866 --> 01:09:06,633
with material science, and they directed

292
01:09:06,633 --> 01:09:09,399
me to you. And then we

293
01:09:09,399 --> 01:09:10,833
started talking and we ended up

294
01:09:11,399 --> 01:09:13,966
collaborating on a curriculum collection

295
01:09:13,966 --> 01:09:15,000
installation, which

296
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:15,933
actually had two really

297
01:09:15,933 --> 01:09:18,433
cool components. One was we got some

298
01:09:18,433 --> 01:09:19,933
really interesting art made with

299
01:09:19,933 --> 01:09:20,733
different materials,

300
01:09:21,033 --> 01:09:25,666
wood and metals and, you know, just like

301
01:09:25,666 --> 01:09:27,066
my main criteria was like, I

302
01:09:27,066 --> 01:09:28,666
think these students will see

303
01:09:28,666 --> 01:09:30,100
things in this that are interesting that

304
01:09:30,100 --> 01:09:31,366
I don't have access to, because I'm not

305
01:09:31,366 --> 01:09:32,100
in material science,

306
01:09:32,100 --> 01:09:33,933
but serving up some interesting materials

307
01:09:33,933 --> 01:09:35,633
for them. But then we also

308
01:09:35,633 --> 01:09:36,966
worked with that grad student

309
01:09:37,100 --> 01:09:40,066
club to create what we call the materials

310
01:09:40,066 --> 01:09:41,899
tour of the museum. So

311
01:09:41,899 --> 01:09:43,433
they picked out, I think, six

312
01:09:43,433 --> 01:09:44,966
objects that are on display in various

313
01:09:44,966 --> 01:09:46,366
parts of the museum, and

314
01:09:46,366 --> 01:09:48,966
wrote some really cool, like,

315
01:09:50,233 --> 01:09:52,166
specialized but accessible texts about

316
01:09:52,166 --> 01:09:53,600
the materials that went

317
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:54,666
into the creation of those

318
01:09:54,666 --> 01:09:56,500
things. And I don't know if you knew

319
01:09:56,500 --> 01:09:58,066
this, when that was on when

320
01:09:58,066 --> 01:09:59,199
that was kind of active on the

321
01:09:59,199 --> 01:10:00,866
website, that was the most popular thing

322
01:10:00,866 --> 01:10:01,933
on our website for a few

323
01:10:01,933 --> 01:10:03,233
months. Oh, that's fantastic.

324
01:10:03,266 --> 01:10:08,533
That's very valid. Yeah. Yeah. So, so

325
01:10:08,533 --> 01:10:10,600
that was, you know, that was sort of the

326
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:11,533
long story of how we

327
01:10:11,533 --> 01:10:13,000
started working together. And it

328
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:14,866
culminated in this collaborative

329
01:10:14,866 --> 01:10:16,933
exhibition. And then and then Tim,

330
01:10:16,933 --> 01:10:18,533
who I'm talking with here right now, Tim

331
01:10:18,533 --> 01:10:20,566
and I actually did a public

332
01:10:20,566 --> 01:10:22,566
program that we do, we do a

333
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:24,399
public program in association with

334
01:10:24,399 --> 01:10:25,066
curriculum collection

335
01:10:25,066 --> 01:10:26,600
called subject matters, where we

336
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:28,966
basically try to like provide the kind of

337
01:10:28,966 --> 01:10:29,833
university learning

338
01:10:29,833 --> 01:10:31,366
experience that we do for the students

339
01:10:31,866 --> 01:10:35,166
to the general public. And Tim and I had

340
01:10:35,166 --> 01:10:36,333
that was one of the best

341
01:10:36,333 --> 01:10:37,666
subject matters as well. Because

342
01:10:37,666 --> 01:10:39,133
that was we had some really interesting

343
01:10:39,133 --> 01:10:41,366
wide ranging discussions about culture

344
01:10:41,366 --> 01:10:42,833
and materiality. And

345
01:10:43,666 --> 01:10:46,433
I finally remember switching roles at one

346
01:10:46,433 --> 01:10:47,766
point where you kind of

347
01:10:47,766 --> 01:10:49,133
talked about the culture. And I

348
01:10:49,133 --> 01:10:50,366
did my best to talk about the

349
01:10:50,366 --> 01:10:52,433
materiality. That was a lot of fun. Yeah,

350
01:10:52,433 --> 01:10:53,766
that was a really great

351
01:10:53,766 --> 01:10:55,833
time. We should do that again. I'll say

352
01:10:55,833 --> 01:10:56,866
that. Yeah, public. So

353
01:10:56,866 --> 01:10:58,666
it's on the record. But you've

354
01:10:58,666 --> 01:11:00,266
already brought me into I think the next

355
01:11:00,266 --> 01:11:01,733
topic, which is that as

356
01:11:01,733 --> 01:11:02,733
you're doing all this public

357
01:11:02,766 --> 01:11:06,233
engagement, and, you know, you've been

358
01:11:06,233 --> 01:11:07,666
interacting more with some of these

359
01:11:07,666 --> 01:11:08,633
technical disciplines,

360
01:11:09,100 --> 01:11:12,166
how has your experience and learning a

361
01:11:12,166 --> 01:11:13,466
little bit about, you know, about

362
01:11:13,466 --> 01:11:14,300
engineering and about

363
01:11:14,300 --> 01:11:17,000
material science, has this influenced how

364
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:18,733
you think about the art

365
01:11:18,733 --> 01:11:19,566
that you're working with and

366
01:11:19,566 --> 01:11:20,800
how you communicate that art to the

367
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:24,833
public? Yeah, I mean, profoundly, and

368
01:11:24,833 --> 01:11:25,933
really in kind of like,

369
01:11:26,500 --> 01:11:30,899
two connected but disparate ways. So one

370
01:11:30,899 --> 01:11:32,166
one being like the

371
01:11:32,166 --> 01:11:34,033
technical side of things, and one

372
01:11:34,033 --> 01:11:37,333
being how the working with material

373
01:11:37,333 --> 01:11:38,633
science has also changed my

374
01:11:38,633 --> 01:11:40,166
experience of like the aesthetic,

375
01:11:40,699 --> 01:11:42,866
right? I'll talk a little bit about both

376
01:11:42,866 --> 01:11:43,600
of those. So on the on the

377
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:45,033
technical side, like, I mean,

378
01:11:45,033 --> 01:11:47,566
people, me and just people in general are

379
01:11:47,566 --> 01:11:49,033
always interested to learn

380
01:11:49,033 --> 01:11:51,333
about how objects are made,

381
01:11:52,266 --> 01:11:54,199
and how the materials are manipulated in

382
01:11:54,199 --> 01:11:55,133
order to produce the

383
01:11:55,133 --> 01:11:56,166
effects that we're seeing.

384
01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:00,133
And working with material science

385
01:12:00,133 --> 01:12:02,466
actually gives me a little bit more

386
01:12:02,466 --> 01:12:04,433
informed, like discussion,

387
01:12:05,566 --> 01:12:08,233
sort of informed, informed material for

388
01:12:08,233 --> 01:12:10,066
discussion about the creation

389
01:12:10,066 --> 01:12:11,833
of metals, like talk a little

390
01:12:11,833 --> 01:12:13,533
bit about the crystal structures in there

391
01:12:13,533 --> 01:12:14,733
based on, you know, the

392
01:12:14,733 --> 01:12:15,633
things that we learned about

393
01:12:16,133 --> 01:12:18,833
with you. I know a lot more about

394
01:12:18,833 --> 01:12:21,066
ceramics and glaze from

395
01:12:21,066 --> 01:12:23,233
working with your program. So I'm

396
01:12:23,233 --> 01:12:25,733
actually I have some facility to kind of

397
01:12:25,733 --> 01:12:27,199
respond to that curiosity

398
01:12:27,199 --> 01:12:29,166
that pretty much everybody has

399
01:12:29,166 --> 01:12:30,566
when we're working with those sorts of

400
01:12:30,566 --> 01:12:33,133
materials to talk a bit about how the

401
01:12:33,133 --> 01:12:33,766
materials that they're

402
01:12:33,766 --> 01:12:35,433
made with and the way those materials are

403
01:12:35,433 --> 01:12:37,666
used produces the macro

404
01:12:37,666 --> 01:12:39,233
effects that we find in the

405
01:12:39,233 --> 01:12:41,433
pieces. I remember you saying at that

406
01:12:41,433 --> 01:12:42,966
subject matters that micro structures

407
01:12:42,966 --> 01:12:44,033
produce macro effects.

408
01:12:44,466 --> 01:12:46,466
And I think about that often as well. Oh,

409
01:12:46,466 --> 01:12:47,166
and that relates to the

410
01:12:47,166 --> 01:12:48,133
other thing that's that's

411
01:12:48,133 --> 01:12:49,966
really kind of in this is kind of a more

412
01:12:49,966 --> 01:12:52,133
profound way in which it's influenced me.

413
01:12:53,933 --> 01:12:55,266
And this is getting kind of into the

414
01:12:55,266 --> 01:12:56,933
speculative territory here.

415
01:12:56,933 --> 01:12:59,699
But like, so I think so our

416
01:12:59,699 --> 01:13:03,000
experience of visual art is actually more

417
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:04,466
synesthetic than we

418
01:13:04,466 --> 01:13:05,866
think it is, then we sort of

419
01:13:05,866 --> 01:13:07,399
acknowledge it's like when we look at

420
01:13:07,399 --> 01:13:08,733
something, it activates our

421
01:13:08,733 --> 01:13:10,433
other senses as well. Right.

422
01:13:10,833 --> 01:13:14,133
Okay. Yeah. And then it also, whenever we

423
01:13:14,133 --> 01:13:15,533
look at something, it produces an

424
01:13:15,533 --> 01:13:16,966
embodied experience as

425
01:13:16,966 --> 01:13:19,266
well. Right, which could be, I mean, it

426
01:13:19,266 --> 01:13:20,366
might be like an embodied

427
01:13:20,366 --> 01:13:21,866
experience of like the form of

428
01:13:21,866 --> 01:13:24,233
the art. And you kind of imagine like how

429
01:13:24,233 --> 01:13:25,833
your body would move to produce that

430
01:13:25,833 --> 01:13:27,600
form. Or it could be

431
01:13:27,966 --> 01:13:29,766
something about like the texture of it.

432
01:13:29,766 --> 01:13:31,233
And you kind of imagine how

433
01:13:31,233 --> 01:13:32,766
it would feel and like maybe

434
01:13:32,766 --> 01:13:34,500
how it would crumble if you touched it

435
01:13:34,500 --> 01:13:36,166
and that sort of thing. So

436
01:13:36,166 --> 01:13:39,066
thinking like, being more

437
01:13:39,100 --> 01:13:41,533
attentive to the material qualities of

438
01:13:41,533 --> 01:13:43,533
the that the objects are

439
01:13:43,533 --> 01:13:45,466
produced with actually gives me

440
01:13:45,466 --> 01:13:49,600
access to some interesting kind of like

441
01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:51,266
synesthetic and embodied

442
01:13:51,266 --> 01:13:52,866
experiences of them. I especially

443
01:13:52,866 --> 01:13:55,033
experience this with like similarly with

444
01:13:55,033 --> 01:13:57,300
like ceramics, like, you

445
01:13:57,300 --> 01:13:58,466
know, I used to be attentive

446
01:13:58,533 --> 01:14:01,066
to the ways that, you know, there's

447
01:14:01,066 --> 01:14:02,366
different porosity in

448
01:14:02,366 --> 01:14:04,733
ceramics that that I mean, I sort of

449
01:14:04,766 --> 01:14:06,166
was like, it has to do with how the

450
01:14:06,166 --> 01:14:07,866
molecules are clouded, try to get

451
01:14:07,866 --> 01:14:09,233
together or something like I

452
01:14:09,333 --> 01:14:10,933
had some idea that it must have something

453
01:14:10,933 --> 01:14:12,433
to do with some of the

454
01:14:12,433 --> 01:14:15,333
micromateriality in there. But

455
01:14:15,866 --> 01:14:17,266
I feel like I have a little bit more of a

456
01:14:17,266 --> 01:14:18,433
handle on that from working

457
01:14:18,433 --> 01:14:20,166
with you. And so I actually

458
01:14:20,166 --> 01:14:22,966
have a more powerful kind of embodied

459
01:14:22,966 --> 01:14:26,066
experience and almost like a feeling

460
01:14:26,066 --> 01:14:27,433
experience of objects

461
01:14:28,733 --> 01:14:31,433
that is informed by that by that

462
01:14:31,433 --> 01:14:32,666
experience with you.

463
01:14:33,366 --> 01:14:35,000
That's, that's such an interesting

464
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:36,633
observation about the

465
01:14:36,633 --> 01:14:38,466
different sensory channels that we're

466
01:14:38,466 --> 01:14:40,966
engaging, even if we're just looking at

467
01:14:40,966 --> 01:14:42,066
something with our eyes,

468
01:14:42,066 --> 01:14:43,133
but really, it does become the

469
01:14:43,133 --> 01:14:44,666
sort of whole body experience when you're

470
01:14:44,666 --> 01:14:46,166
engaging your imagination

471
01:14:46,166 --> 01:14:47,733
and consider how did a person

472
01:14:47,733 --> 01:14:50,033
make this right? What must that have

473
01:14:50,033 --> 01:14:52,233
process have been like? And that's the

474
01:14:52,233 --> 01:14:53,066
sort of thinking that I

475
01:14:53,100 --> 01:14:54,800
want my students to do, right, to

476
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:57,033
approach this as an engineer and say,

477
01:14:57,033 --> 01:14:58,166
what was the manufacturing

478
01:14:58,266 --> 01:15:00,966
like? What, what's the physicality of how

479
01:15:00,966 --> 01:15:02,033
this material behaves as

480
01:15:02,033 --> 01:15:03,166
someone's trying to shape it

481
01:15:03,166 --> 01:15:06,066
into a product? And now you've got me

482
01:15:06,066 --> 01:15:08,166
thinking on the side of how

483
01:15:08,166 --> 01:15:09,133
could I use something a little

484
01:15:09,133 --> 01:15:11,033
bit more artistic to get students to

485
01:15:11,033 --> 01:15:11,966
engage with that more

486
01:15:11,966 --> 01:15:14,066
complete sensory experience. So I'm

487
01:15:14,066 --> 01:15:18,133
going to chew on that. But I do also want

488
01:15:18,133 --> 01:15:21,233
to ask about another topic that is very

489
01:15:23,533 --> 01:15:26,066
very topical in MSC and very much a

490
01:15:26,066 --> 01:15:27,033
present day concern,

491
01:15:27,033 --> 01:15:29,133
which is that we have this,

492
01:15:29,966 --> 01:15:31,733
a much broader awareness, I think now in

493
01:15:31,733 --> 01:15:34,300
our field, that there is a lot of

494
01:15:34,300 --> 01:15:36,166
inequity and inequality in

495
01:15:36,166 --> 01:15:38,533
society that is caused by engineering.

496
01:15:39,433 --> 01:15:42,699
And in many of the problems

497
01:15:42,699 --> 01:15:43,966
that we're dealing with as

498
01:15:43,966 --> 01:15:47,866
engineers, that the the cultural context

499
01:15:47,866 --> 01:15:48,766
in which we're doing our

500
01:15:48,766 --> 01:15:50,166
engineering work is so critical

501
01:15:50,933 --> 01:15:52,866
to doing it well and to doing it

502
01:15:52,866 --> 01:15:54,466
ethically and to understanding how we're

503
01:15:54,466 --> 01:15:55,433
going to affect people

504
01:15:55,733 --> 01:15:59,100
in our engineering practice. But as

505
01:15:59,100 --> 01:16:04,133
someone in the art world, I feel like my

506
01:16:04,133 --> 01:16:05,033
naive belief from the

507
01:16:05,033 --> 01:16:06,899
outside is that in the art world, it's

508
01:16:06,899 --> 01:16:08,100
like you're always thinking about the

509
01:16:08,100 --> 01:16:09,033
human element of these

510
01:16:09,033 --> 01:16:13,233
problems. So what my question is then, as

511
01:16:13,233 --> 01:16:14,699
engineers, what can we learn

512
01:16:14,699 --> 01:16:17,466
from the art community and from

513
01:16:17,466 --> 01:16:19,333
the museum community that's engaging the

514
01:16:19,333 --> 01:16:20,766
public? What can we learn

515
01:16:20,766 --> 01:16:22,833
about how to better get our

516
01:16:22,833 --> 01:16:24,266
students to think about the cultural

517
01:16:24,266 --> 01:16:26,833
context of their work? Gosh,

518
01:16:27,199 --> 01:16:29,199
you know, I'm going to talk

519
01:16:29,966 --> 01:16:32,500
about sort of how we engage in that kind

520
01:16:32,500 --> 01:16:33,566
of work in the art museum.

521
01:16:33,933 --> 01:16:35,366
And then let's see if we can

522
01:16:35,366 --> 01:16:38,366
bridge that to how we can use that to

523
01:16:38,366 --> 01:16:39,533
form the work of engineers.

524
01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:40,766
I have maybe some speculative

525
01:16:40,933 --> 01:16:45,466
ideas about that. But yeah, let me let me

526
01:16:45,466 --> 01:16:46,733
so I was actually thinking about this

527
01:16:46,733 --> 01:16:47,699
question ahead of time.

528
01:16:48,533 --> 01:16:52,300
And I actually came up with like several

529
01:16:52,300 --> 01:16:53,766
different metaphors for like

530
01:16:53,766 --> 01:16:55,266
the value of art in these in

531
01:16:55,266 --> 01:16:59,000
these sorts of discussions. So one is

532
01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:01,566
like art as a mirror. So one of the

533
01:17:01,566 --> 01:17:02,766
things that are, I mean,

534
01:17:02,766 --> 01:17:04,366
it's not true of all art, but a lot of

535
01:17:04,366 --> 01:17:06,866
art does address sort of

536
01:17:06,866 --> 01:17:08,566
representation of people, which

537
01:17:08,633 --> 01:17:10,166
we can connect to larger discussions

538
01:17:10,166 --> 01:17:11,633
about identity. So

539
01:17:11,633 --> 01:17:13,833
there's like the sort of in this

540
01:17:14,766 --> 01:17:17,566
in art being visual means that we're, you

541
01:17:17,566 --> 01:17:18,699
know, we're sort of

542
01:17:18,699 --> 01:17:20,666
thrown on dealing with visual

543
01:17:20,666 --> 01:17:23,100
identities, right, which is where a lot

544
01:17:23,100 --> 01:17:24,333
of stereotypes reside

545
01:17:24,333 --> 01:17:26,066
and a lot of bias reside,

546
01:17:26,266 --> 01:17:28,399
right. So just the subject of art in

547
01:17:28,399 --> 01:17:30,166
itself, which is about people and about

548
01:17:30,166 --> 01:17:31,566
identity means that it's

549
01:17:31,566 --> 01:17:33,233
kind of a mirror that we can hold up to

550
01:17:33,233 --> 01:17:35,100
ourselves. And we can talk about

551
01:17:35,100 --> 01:17:36,666
ourselves in relation to the

552
01:17:36,666 --> 01:17:38,566
art and talk about our relations with

553
01:17:38,566 --> 01:17:40,833
others in relation to the art. So art is

554
01:17:40,833 --> 01:17:42,033
a mirror of identity

555
01:17:42,266 --> 01:17:44,566
is one aspect. But then at the same time,

556
01:17:44,933 --> 01:17:46,166
I would say art is a kind of

557
01:17:46,166 --> 01:17:48,966
screen that it doesn't mirror

558
01:17:49,066 --> 01:17:51,133
us, it actually allows us to talk to one

559
01:17:51,133 --> 01:17:52,666
another without directly

560
01:17:52,666 --> 01:17:54,033
addressing one another, we can

561
01:17:54,033 --> 01:17:56,366
address the art. So or like a filter or

562
01:17:56,366 --> 01:17:57,433
something like that. Oh,

563
01:17:57,433 --> 01:17:58,433
that's one of the things I find

564
01:17:58,433 --> 01:18:00,399
really valuable is like, when we're in

565
01:18:00,399 --> 01:18:01,333
the museum, and we're

566
01:18:01,333 --> 01:18:02,899
looking at a work of art that is

567
01:18:02,933 --> 01:18:06,233
addressing like racism or some sort of

568
01:18:06,233 --> 01:18:07,433
like, or a topic of social

569
01:18:07,433 --> 01:18:09,800
justice. The main thing we try

570
01:18:09,800 --> 01:18:11,766
to do is talk about kind of what the

571
01:18:11,766 --> 01:18:12,866
artist is communicating,

572
01:18:12,866 --> 01:18:14,566
and then kind of what our

573
01:18:14,566 --> 01:18:16,833
response is to that. But so we're, we're

574
01:18:16,833 --> 01:18:18,133
really talking about an

575
01:18:18,133 --> 01:18:19,666
artist complex communication

576
01:18:19,800 --> 01:18:22,133
about this topic. So rather than talking

577
01:18:22,133 --> 01:18:23,600
about our own opinions, it

578
01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:24,966
allows us to talk about issues

579
01:18:24,966 --> 01:18:27,100
of identity and social justice, without

580
01:18:27,100 --> 01:18:27,866
it being sort of

581
01:18:27,866 --> 01:18:30,666
personalized. And it allows us to like

582
01:18:30,699 --> 01:18:32,533
engage with like the artist is probably

583
01:18:32,533 --> 01:18:33,866
saying something kind of

584
01:18:33,866 --> 01:18:35,566
complex and interesting that's

585
01:18:35,566 --> 01:18:38,333
not reductive. So it allows us to get at

586
01:18:38,333 --> 01:18:39,266
these things without

587
01:18:39,266 --> 01:18:41,266
it. I mean, if people feel

588
01:18:41,266 --> 01:18:43,233
uncomfortable about addressing bias and

589
01:18:43,233 --> 01:18:44,366
stuff like that, it's it's

590
01:18:44,366 --> 01:18:45,566
a way of doing it without

591
01:18:45,866 --> 01:18:48,300
them feeling called out quite as much.

592
01:18:48,766 --> 01:18:50,433
Right? Yeah. Screen or a

593
01:18:50,433 --> 01:18:53,066
filter. There's something there

594
01:18:54,133 --> 01:18:57,066
that I want to connect to what some of us

595
01:18:57,066 --> 01:18:58,266
do in our classes in

596
01:18:58,266 --> 01:18:59,133
engineering, which is that there

597
01:18:59,166 --> 01:19:01,766
will be this technical problem, usually

598
01:19:01,766 --> 01:19:03,933
without a unique correct answer that we

599
01:19:03,933 --> 01:19:04,966
want our students to

600
01:19:05,399 --> 01:19:07,266
work on. But as we get the students to

601
01:19:07,266 --> 01:19:08,366
frame the problem and to

602
01:19:08,366 --> 01:19:10,566
describe and define what is the

603
01:19:10,566 --> 01:19:12,133
problem you're trying to solve, this

604
01:19:12,133 --> 01:19:14,866
often teases out many assumptions and

605
01:19:14,866 --> 01:19:16,199
many, you know, sort of

606
01:19:16,199 --> 01:19:18,966
unconscious biases that this yes have.

607
01:19:19,366 --> 01:19:20,800
And just in that aspect of getting them

608
01:19:20,800 --> 01:19:21,833
to describe what the

609
01:19:21,833 --> 01:19:23,433
problem is, you're right, I think it

610
01:19:23,433 --> 01:19:24,399
becomes a little bit less

611
01:19:24,399 --> 01:19:26,366
personalized of here's how I feel

612
01:19:26,466 --> 01:19:28,899
about my identity in the world. And it

613
01:19:28,899 --> 01:19:30,533
makes it a little bit more,

614
01:19:31,333 --> 01:19:32,466
as you said, just a little less

615
01:19:32,466 --> 01:19:34,966
personal, where they can start to unpack

616
01:19:34,966 --> 01:19:36,000
some of these ideas more

617
01:19:36,000 --> 01:19:37,699
because there's this other

618
01:19:37,699 --> 01:19:39,466
there's this third party that they're

619
01:19:39,466 --> 01:19:41,133
getting to to use their

620
01:19:41,133 --> 01:19:42,399
ideas. That's really interesting.

621
01:19:43,100 --> 01:19:44,366
Yeah. And one of the things you said

622
01:19:44,366 --> 01:19:45,566
there was actually the next

623
01:19:45,566 --> 01:19:46,733
point that I was going to make.

624
01:19:46,733 --> 01:19:48,066
And it was actually one of the places

625
01:19:48,066 --> 01:19:48,699
where I could see

626
01:19:48,699 --> 01:19:50,199
definitely see some intersection with

627
01:19:50,266 --> 01:19:52,066
sort of the training of engineers, which

628
01:19:52,066 --> 01:19:54,133
is like art is really good at ambiguity.

629
01:19:55,399 --> 01:19:58,966
It's very good at like presenting things

630
01:19:58,966 --> 01:20:00,266
to us that we can read

631
01:20:00,266 --> 01:20:02,066
like compellingly read in

632
01:20:02,133 --> 01:20:04,533
multiple and even opposing ways at the

633
01:20:04,533 --> 01:20:08,133
same time. And so art has an

634
01:20:08,133 --> 01:20:09,699
ambiguity in it that we can

635
01:20:09,699 --> 01:20:11,866
like, we sometimes we have to like, get

636
01:20:11,866 --> 01:20:13,633
past our initial simplistic

637
01:20:13,633 --> 01:20:15,166
responses to it to get to the

638
01:20:15,166 --> 01:20:17,333
ambiguity. But then if we have multiple

639
01:20:17,333 --> 01:20:18,466
people looking at the

640
01:20:18,466 --> 01:20:19,866
same work of art and having

641
01:20:20,166 --> 01:20:22,666
different thoughts about it, that is also

642
01:20:22,666 --> 01:20:24,300
another form of ambiguity of

643
01:20:24,300 --> 01:20:25,933
meaning that has to do with

644
01:20:25,933 --> 01:20:27,600
kind of social interaction around the

645
01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:29,199
art. So all of these kind of

646
01:20:29,199 --> 01:20:30,866
discussions, like help us to

647
01:20:30,866 --> 01:20:32,633
sort of realize that there's multiple

648
01:20:32,633 --> 01:20:33,933
ways to look at something.

649
01:20:34,233 --> 01:20:35,100
And when you said you give them

650
01:20:35,100 --> 01:20:36,633
technical problems without a unique

651
01:20:36,633 --> 01:20:38,133
correct answer, I mean,

652
01:20:38,133 --> 01:20:39,433
that's that's kind of the core

653
01:20:39,433 --> 01:20:41,733
of things right there is like, there's

654
01:20:41,733 --> 01:20:42,466
not a unique correct

655
01:20:42,466 --> 01:20:44,233
answer to the to the meaning of

656
01:20:44,233 --> 01:20:46,000
a work of art or to like questions about

657
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:47,666
sort of identity. It's like it's

658
01:20:47,666 --> 01:20:48,333
something we have to kind

659
01:20:48,366 --> 01:20:52,533
of talk about and work through. You know,

660
01:20:52,533 --> 01:20:53,333
and just one other thing

661
01:20:53,333 --> 01:20:55,866
on this sort of question of

662
01:20:56,300 --> 01:20:57,699
bias, like one of the one of the great

663
01:20:57,699 --> 01:20:59,333
values of art is actually

664
01:20:59,333 --> 01:21:01,333
in dealing with biases that

665
01:21:02,033 --> 01:21:05,433
so many biases reside in our visual

666
01:21:05,433 --> 01:21:07,300
capacities, and they run on

667
01:21:07,300 --> 01:21:08,833
autopilot, you know, like our

668
01:21:08,833 --> 01:21:12,566
visual faculties are not designed to like

669
01:21:12,566 --> 01:21:14,033
look at things, and we

670
01:21:14,033 --> 01:21:15,533
don't actually accurately see

671
01:21:15,566 --> 01:21:18,066
the world, we see a very filtered version

672
01:21:18,066 --> 01:21:19,466
of the world. Like

673
01:21:19,466 --> 01:21:20,733
before we even think about it,

674
01:21:20,733 --> 01:21:22,766
our brain has decided, you know, this,

675
01:21:22,766 --> 01:21:23,899
these are the things that are out there,

676
01:21:23,899 --> 01:21:24,399
these are the things

677
01:21:24,399 --> 01:21:25,766
that are worth paying attention to, and

678
01:21:25,766 --> 01:21:26,966
then your eyes look at them and get

679
01:21:26,966 --> 01:21:28,066
information out of them.

680
01:21:28,399 --> 01:21:32,233
So like biases reside so automatically in

681
01:21:32,233 --> 01:21:34,199
in visuality. And so

682
01:21:34,199 --> 01:21:35,533
visual culture is a really

683
01:21:35,533 --> 01:21:38,266
good way to kind of help people get go

684
01:21:38,266 --> 01:21:39,800
through exercises to notice

685
01:21:39,800 --> 01:21:41,699
how they jump to a conclusion

686
01:21:42,033 --> 01:21:44,033
at first. And then when they looked more

687
01:21:44,033 --> 01:21:45,066
and thought about it,

688
01:21:45,066 --> 01:21:46,399
there was more going on.

689
01:21:48,033 --> 01:21:50,433
Yeah, I think I think you just answered

690
01:21:50,433 --> 01:21:51,733
my next question, which is

691
01:21:51,733 --> 01:21:52,933
why should every engineer take

692
01:21:52,933 --> 01:21:55,066
an art class, but I feel like we just

693
01:21:55,066 --> 01:21:55,933
knocked it out of the park

694
01:21:55,933 --> 01:21:58,933
on that one. Yeah, I think so.

695
01:22:00,766 --> 01:22:03,433
Well, I, you know, there's two answers to

696
01:22:03,433 --> 01:22:04,133
that. I mean, we could

697
01:22:04,133 --> 01:22:05,533
talk about sort of the,

698
01:22:05,800 --> 01:22:08,933
is the sort of socio cultural engagement

699
01:22:08,933 --> 01:22:09,933
that we can get through

700
01:22:09,933 --> 01:22:11,966
art. But then we could also

701
01:22:11,966 --> 01:22:14,333
talk about, you know, engineers working

702
01:22:14,333 --> 01:22:20,133
with like art materials. Yeah, there's,

703
01:22:20,633 --> 01:22:21,933
you know, we've had,

704
01:22:22,199 --> 01:22:23,899
we've been talking about bias, and we've

705
01:22:23,899 --> 01:22:25,733
been talking about how our

706
01:22:25,733 --> 01:22:27,033
our perception of the world

707
01:22:27,166 --> 01:22:29,933
is filtered through our brain

708
01:22:29,933 --> 01:22:34,266
unconsciously. And because there are so

709
01:22:34,266 --> 01:22:38,266
many layers to this system of

710
01:22:38,666 --> 01:22:41,933
how we perceive and engage with the world

711
01:22:41,933 --> 01:22:43,766
around us, there's also

712
01:22:43,766 --> 01:22:45,633
can be a lot of difficulty in

713
01:22:45,633 --> 01:22:47,833
building just connections with people,

714
01:22:47,833 --> 01:22:49,166
right to open dialogues

715
01:22:49,166 --> 01:22:50,266
about difficult questions,

716
01:22:50,766 --> 01:22:53,733
and to get to a place where you can have

717
01:22:53,733 --> 01:22:54,699
these hard conversations

718
01:22:54,699 --> 01:22:56,100
about problems that don't have

719
01:22:56,133 --> 01:22:58,800
right answers. And I know that's a space

720
01:22:58,800 --> 01:23:00,266
that you work in a lot,

721
01:23:00,266 --> 01:23:02,133
because you have so many student

722
01:23:02,133 --> 01:23:03,899
groups from different disciplines. And as

723
01:23:03,899 --> 01:23:04,699
you mentioned earlier,

724
01:23:04,699 --> 01:23:06,033
right, you have public groups

725
01:23:06,033 --> 01:23:07,899
as well coming in. So what are your some

726
01:23:07,899 --> 01:23:09,366
of your, what are some of

727
01:23:09,366 --> 01:23:12,033
your techniques for, for starting

728
01:23:12,033 --> 01:23:13,366
to build those connections and for

729
01:23:13,366 --> 01:23:16,000
creating a space where people can talk

730
01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:16,633
about these questions

731
01:23:16,933 --> 01:23:19,133
in a productive way? That's a great

732
01:23:19,133 --> 01:23:24,433
question. So I mean, like, first off,

733
01:23:24,866 --> 01:23:26,866
like, I see one of the

734
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:29,399
most important roles that we play in

735
01:23:29,399 --> 01:23:31,233
engaging with students in the public

736
01:23:31,233 --> 01:23:32,133
around these sorts of

737
01:23:32,133 --> 01:23:34,333
topics is like acting as facilitators and

738
01:23:34,333 --> 01:23:35,333
trying to get people to,

739
01:23:35,333 --> 01:23:37,600
like, talk and listen to one

740
01:23:37,600 --> 01:23:39,699
another and respond to what one another

741
01:23:39,699 --> 01:23:42,233
are saying. And the way we

742
01:23:42,233 --> 01:23:45,533
do that is, like, you know,

743
01:23:45,566 --> 01:23:47,433
there's a lot of talk of engaged learning

744
01:23:47,433 --> 01:23:48,699
in sort of university

745
01:23:48,699 --> 01:23:50,733
settings, we feel like we really

746
01:23:50,733 --> 01:23:53,133
walk the walk the walk the talk of

747
01:23:53,133 --> 01:23:54,033
engaged learning at the

748
01:23:54,033 --> 01:23:55,566
museum and the way and there's

749
01:23:55,566 --> 01:23:56,933
also these different definitions of

750
01:23:56,933 --> 01:23:57,699
engaged learning, the one

751
01:23:57,699 --> 01:23:59,033
that I think is like sort of

752
01:23:59,033 --> 01:24:00,433
most salient, which actually I heard the

753
01:24:00,433 --> 01:24:02,199
like my director say one time

754
01:24:02,199 --> 01:24:04,633
was that engaged learning is

755
01:24:04,633 --> 01:24:06,333
asking people to do something instead of

756
01:24:06,333 --> 01:24:07,100
telling them something.

757
01:24:07,733 --> 01:24:10,266
Right. And so one of the ways that

758
01:24:10,266 --> 01:24:12,000
we so you would think like, how do you do

759
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:13,366
that? How do you ask people to do

760
01:24:13,366 --> 01:24:14,100
something with a work

761
01:24:14,133 --> 01:24:15,466
of art? We're standing in front of a

762
01:24:15,466 --> 01:24:16,566
painting. What do you ask them to do?

763
01:24:16,833 --> 01:24:17,600
Well, we ask them to

764
01:24:17,600 --> 01:24:19,066
describe it. We ask them what they see,

765
01:24:19,300 --> 01:24:20,466
and then we ask them what it

766
01:24:20,466 --> 01:24:22,333
gets them to think about. And

767
01:24:22,333 --> 01:24:24,100
we try to forefront all those sort of

768
01:24:24,100 --> 01:24:25,466
active discussions, active

769
01:24:25,466 --> 01:24:27,066
responses. We try to put that

770
01:24:27,066 --> 01:24:29,166
upfront in the discussion before we bring

771
01:24:29,166 --> 01:24:30,766
in any information about

772
01:24:30,766 --> 01:24:32,066
the artist or the title or

773
01:24:32,066 --> 01:24:33,600
anything like that. So we're really

774
01:24:33,600 --> 01:24:35,533
trying to I mean, seriously,

775
01:24:35,533 --> 01:24:36,433
we're trying to hear what people

776
01:24:36,433 --> 01:24:38,899
think. Yeah, yeah. And that makes them

777
01:24:38,899 --> 01:24:40,033
feel invited into the

778
01:24:40,033 --> 01:24:41,766
discussion. Right. And then as

779
01:24:41,833 --> 01:24:43,733
facilitators, a really important thing

780
01:24:43,733 --> 01:24:45,433
that we do. And this

781
01:24:45,433 --> 01:24:46,466
actually, you know, as I said,

782
01:24:46,466 --> 01:24:48,233
my background was in German studies. So

783
01:24:48,233 --> 01:24:48,833
when I was a grad

784
01:24:48,833 --> 01:24:50,133
student, I did a lot of language

785
01:24:50,199 --> 01:24:52,600
instruction, like German 101 and 102. And

786
01:24:52,600 --> 01:24:53,633
there's some core things

787
01:24:53,633 --> 01:24:55,766
that I learned in that pedagogy

788
01:24:56,033 --> 01:24:58,166
that we apply all the time in museum

789
01:24:58,166 --> 01:25:00,166
work. So one of the most important things

790
01:25:00,166 --> 01:25:01,266
in language learning

791
01:25:01,399 --> 01:25:03,666
is that people feel inhibited, right? And

792
01:25:03,666 --> 01:25:04,333
they feel inhibited

793
01:25:04,333 --> 01:25:05,100
because they're worried they're

794
01:25:05,100 --> 01:25:07,166
going to make a mistake. Right. So the

795
01:25:07,166 --> 01:25:09,500
language program that I was in was all

796
01:25:09,500 --> 01:25:10,800
about not correcting

797
01:25:11,033 --> 01:25:14,033
people. It was all about just like making

798
01:25:14,033 --> 01:25:15,399
people feel confident that

799
01:25:15,399 --> 01:25:16,466
even if they make mistakes,

800
01:25:16,466 --> 01:25:18,166
they're going to be understood. So we

801
01:25:18,166 --> 01:25:20,366
taught for comprehension rather than

802
01:25:20,366 --> 01:25:22,566
accuracy. Right. And so

803
01:25:22,566 --> 01:25:25,300
that creates an environment in which the

804
01:25:25,300 --> 01:25:26,066
students aren't worried

805
01:25:26,066 --> 01:25:28,066
about making an error. They're

806
01:25:28,066 --> 01:25:30,133
trying to communicate for understanding

807
01:25:30,133 --> 01:25:31,733
just like in cultural and social

808
01:25:31,733 --> 01:25:32,666
discussions, we're trying

809
01:25:32,666 --> 01:25:34,066
to communicate with one another for

810
01:25:34,066 --> 01:25:35,800
understanding without worrying about

811
01:25:35,800 --> 01:25:37,699
making mistakes. And then

812
01:25:37,733 --> 01:25:39,766
being affirmative about what people say.

813
01:25:39,766 --> 01:25:40,466
And then this is like a

814
01:25:40,466 --> 01:25:42,100
key thing, what's called in

815
01:25:42,100 --> 01:25:43,133
language instruction, what's called

816
01:25:43,133 --> 01:25:44,733
recasting, which is where

817
01:25:44,733 --> 01:25:46,333
you repeat what somebody said

818
01:25:46,666 --> 01:25:49,366
correctly. Right. So one of the things I

819
01:25:49,366 --> 01:25:50,866
often do in discussions

820
01:25:50,866 --> 01:25:52,366
with people is people say

821
01:25:53,333 --> 01:25:56,033
insightful things. Sometimes they don't

822
01:25:56,033 --> 01:25:56,766
quite know how to

823
01:25:56,766 --> 01:25:58,633
articulate it. I try to kind of take

824
01:25:58,633 --> 01:26:00,633
what they say and repeat it in a way that

825
01:26:00,633 --> 01:26:02,166
puts it in dialogue with the

826
01:26:02,166 --> 01:26:03,366
things other people are saying,

827
01:26:03,800 --> 01:26:05,633
or with some of the kind of like, you

828
01:26:05,633 --> 01:26:06,366
know, sort of like

829
01:26:06,366 --> 01:26:08,233
background knowledge that I have about

830
01:26:08,233 --> 01:26:12,966
the piece or something like that. And so

831
01:26:12,966 --> 01:26:14,500
this kind of invitation to

832
01:26:14,500 --> 01:26:18,433
speak an affirmation of what

833
01:26:18,433 --> 01:26:20,466
people are saying and then an active

834
01:26:20,466 --> 01:26:22,800
effort to I mean, one of the

835
01:26:22,800 --> 01:26:23,699
things I do in my work all the

836
01:26:23,699 --> 01:26:26,966
time is I use ideas from other

837
01:26:26,966 --> 01:26:28,966
disciplines and kind of metaphoric ways

838
01:26:28,966 --> 01:26:30,399
that maybe are interesting,

839
01:26:30,533 --> 01:26:31,933
but maybe kind of abuse them a little

840
01:26:31,933 --> 01:26:32,800
bit. But in this case, I

841
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:34,966
would say the, you know,

842
01:26:35,233 --> 01:26:37,933
within a discussion, the participants are

843
01:26:37,933 --> 01:26:39,966
providing a kind of material,

844
01:26:40,566 --> 01:26:42,833
right. And one of my goals is

845
01:26:42,833 --> 01:26:44,966
the facilitator is to take that material

846
01:26:44,966 --> 01:26:46,333
and work with it to make

847
01:26:46,333 --> 01:26:48,733
something that the whole, to help

848
01:26:48,733 --> 01:26:52,866
the group make something together. Yeah,

849
01:26:52,866 --> 01:26:54,233
that's, that's fantastic.

850
01:26:54,733 --> 01:26:55,966
And I think there's a good

851
01:26:56,366 --> 01:26:58,566
overlap there with what we're doing in

852
01:26:58,566 --> 01:27:00,000
engineering classes as well.

853
01:27:00,566 --> 01:27:02,433
This idea of it's okay to be

854
01:27:02,433 --> 01:27:04,500
partially correct, right? You need to

855
01:27:04,500 --> 01:27:06,166
convey the ideas that you're having,

856
01:27:06,600 --> 01:27:08,399
because so many of our

857
01:27:09,633 --> 01:27:11,266
courses, especially our upper level

858
01:27:11,266 --> 01:27:13,699
courses have so much of a teamwork

859
01:27:13,699 --> 01:27:15,233
component, that it's not

860
01:27:15,233 --> 01:27:17,233
expected for any one person to know

861
01:27:17,233 --> 01:27:18,833
everything or to get it totally right.

862
01:27:18,833 --> 01:27:19,966
But it's like, well,

863
01:27:19,966 --> 01:27:21,833
if person A has a good idea, person B has

864
01:27:21,833 --> 01:27:22,633
a different good idea,

865
01:27:22,633 --> 01:27:23,566
person C has a different

866
01:27:23,633 --> 01:27:25,566
good idea, you start to really put

867
01:27:25,566 --> 01:27:27,733
together a very effective

868
01:27:27,733 --> 01:27:30,333
approach to the problem that the

869
01:27:30,333 --> 01:27:33,233
students are trying to solve. So then the

870
01:27:33,233 --> 01:27:34,600
role for the teacher in that

871
01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:35,966
context is to be I guess the

872
01:27:35,966 --> 01:27:38,266
recaster, right, to take all these

873
01:27:38,266 --> 01:27:39,699
aspects of correctness and to

874
01:27:39,699 --> 01:27:40,733
be able to synthesize it and

875
01:27:40,733 --> 01:27:42,933
say, it sounds like what you're proposing

876
01:27:42,933 --> 01:27:44,866
is, and then to put it out in

877
01:27:44,866 --> 01:27:45,866
a way that the students will

878
01:27:45,866 --> 01:27:47,000
resonate with and say, yeah, that's

879
01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:48,333
exactly what I wanted to do.

880
01:27:48,333 --> 01:27:49,633
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know,

881
01:27:49,633 --> 01:27:52,333
I would add to that also, like as the

882
01:27:52,333 --> 01:27:53,566
instructor in such a

883
01:27:53,566 --> 01:27:56,966
setting, having as an explicit goal,

884
01:27:58,033 --> 01:28:01,933
like helping the students to have an

885
01:28:01,933 --> 01:28:05,533
experience of sort of social learning,

886
01:28:05,733 --> 01:28:06,733
fun social learning,

887
01:28:07,033 --> 01:28:09,600
it's actually fun to work on a team.

888
01:28:09,600 --> 01:28:11,033
Right, collaborative, it's not

889
01:28:11,033 --> 01:28:12,666
competitive. Yes, exactly.

890
01:28:13,266 --> 01:28:15,399
Exactly. It's not competitive. And when

891
01:28:15,399 --> 01:28:17,000
we listen to one another

892
01:28:17,000 --> 01:28:18,566
and talk with one another and

893
01:28:19,100 --> 01:28:21,366
facilitate making something together,

894
01:28:22,733 --> 01:28:24,199
it's going to be like, it's

895
01:28:24,199 --> 01:28:25,000
going to be a more enjoyable

896
01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:26,466
experience. And we're probably going to

897
01:28:26,466 --> 01:28:27,266
make something that's

898
01:28:27,266 --> 01:28:29,033
cooler. Yeah, absolutely.

899
01:28:30,399 --> 01:28:32,833
You know, and that, you know, just one of

900
01:28:32,833 --> 01:28:33,633
the things that I talk

901
01:28:33,633 --> 01:28:34,666
about, and you know, when,

902
01:28:34,833 --> 01:28:36,300
you know, in the, you know, museum world,

903
01:28:36,300 --> 01:28:36,899
we're always kind of

904
01:28:36,899 --> 01:28:38,233
talking about our work to,

905
01:28:38,733 --> 01:28:40,333
you know, other museums and to other

906
01:28:40,333 --> 01:28:41,166
people at the university.

907
01:28:41,166 --> 01:28:42,766
And one of the things I always

908
01:28:42,766 --> 01:28:44,666
emphasize is kind of like the primary

909
01:28:44,666 --> 01:28:45,966
goal of everything we do

910
01:28:45,966 --> 01:28:47,333
at the museum is to give

911
01:28:47,833 --> 01:28:49,566
students or the public, and when we're

912
01:28:49,566 --> 01:28:50,300
working with the public,

913
01:28:50,600 --> 01:28:51,933
an experience of fun social

914
01:28:51,966 --> 01:28:54,433
learning. And like if they learn stuff

915
01:28:54,433 --> 01:28:56,966
too, that's great. But if they leave

916
01:28:56,966 --> 01:28:58,333
being like, wow, that was

917
01:28:58,366 --> 01:29:01,899
really engaging to, I was listening to

918
01:29:01,899 --> 01:29:02,933
other people and I was

919
01:29:02,933 --> 01:29:04,433
being heard and we talked about

920
01:29:04,433 --> 01:29:08,766
important things together. And we changed

921
01:29:08,766 --> 01:29:09,933
one another or we

922
01:29:09,933 --> 01:29:11,699
changed together in some way.

923
01:29:11,899 --> 01:29:14,966
That's all like super important, core

924
01:29:14,966 --> 01:29:16,366
stuff of our experience.

925
01:29:17,366 --> 01:29:18,533
What I wanted to ask you is in

926
01:29:18,533 --> 01:29:20,133
your experience working, especially with

927
01:29:20,133 --> 01:29:22,500
public groups, do you see,

928
01:29:22,766 --> 01:29:26,733
do you see the museum visitors

929
01:29:27,166 --> 01:29:29,366
getting excited about the science behind

930
01:29:29,366 --> 01:29:30,333
the art? And like, what does

931
01:29:30,333 --> 01:29:31,733
it mean? And how does it work?

932
01:29:32,166 --> 01:29:34,233
And is that a vehicle that we can use to

933
01:29:34,233 --> 01:29:35,899
to drive more, you know,

934
01:29:35,966 --> 01:29:37,233
interest in the sciences with the

935
01:29:37,233 --> 01:29:42,433
public? Yeah, I think there's a lot of

936
01:29:42,433 --> 01:29:44,166
there's a lot of room there to meet

937
01:29:44,166 --> 01:29:45,866
public interest. And in

938
01:29:45,966 --> 01:29:48,366
most of the most of that, most of the

939
01:29:48,366 --> 01:29:49,300
questions that the public

940
01:29:49,300 --> 01:29:50,899
have in this area are around

941
01:29:51,066 --> 01:29:53,266
the topics of your making, like how was

942
01:29:53,266 --> 01:29:55,733
this made? What were the materials that

943
01:29:55,733 --> 01:29:56,533
were used? How do you

944
01:29:56,533 --> 01:30:01,133
manipulate them? And like, I feel like

945
01:30:01,133 --> 01:30:05,233
it's like the more expert that

946
01:30:05,233 --> 01:30:06,833
explanation can be, the more

947
01:30:06,866 --> 01:30:08,933
it gives people access to some really

948
01:30:08,933 --> 01:30:10,733
deep understandings of the,

949
01:30:10,733 --> 01:30:12,333
you know, the materiality,

950
01:30:12,333 --> 01:30:14,333
the objecthood of what we're looking at,

951
01:30:14,333 --> 01:30:15,266
which going back to what

952
01:30:15,266 --> 01:30:16,233
I was saying earlier about

953
01:30:16,233 --> 01:30:18,366
synesthetic experiences, I really feel

954
01:30:18,366 --> 01:30:20,466
like those sorts of that sort of

955
01:30:20,466 --> 01:30:21,533
understanding and knowledge

956
01:30:21,533 --> 01:30:24,933
can really kind of undergird a more, this

957
01:30:24,933 --> 01:30:27,233
is a more powerful and multifaceted

958
01:30:27,233 --> 01:30:28,433
experience of works of art.

959
01:30:29,066 --> 01:30:33,166
Yeah, it's, it's so good to be reminded

960
01:30:33,166 --> 01:30:34,766
of how layered these

961
01:30:34,766 --> 01:30:36,666
topics are, right? That there's,

962
01:30:37,199 --> 01:30:38,866
there's the cultural context, there's the

963
01:30:38,866 --> 01:30:39,966
aesthetics of the art itself,

964
01:30:40,233 --> 01:30:41,399
there's the physicality and the

965
01:30:41,399 --> 01:30:42,899
materiality of what it's made out of that

966
01:30:42,899 --> 01:30:43,500
all these things

967
01:30:43,500 --> 01:30:45,166
intersect, right? It's not just,

968
01:30:45,733 --> 01:30:47,533
they're not even separable. You can't

969
01:30:47,533 --> 01:30:48,633
have one without the others.

970
01:30:49,699 --> 01:30:52,633
No. Yeah, you know, a really good example

971
01:30:52,633 --> 01:30:54,600
of that is going back to the

972
01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:57,133
the QR code tour that we that

973
01:30:57,166 --> 01:30:58,966
the grad students put together for

974
01:30:58,966 --> 01:31:00,333
material science for that curriculum

975
01:31:00,333 --> 01:31:01,066
collection installation

976
01:31:01,066 --> 01:31:04,966
we did a ways back. One of the, one of

977
01:31:04,966 --> 01:31:06,466
the objects that they wrote about was a

978
01:31:06,466 --> 01:31:07,566
piece of celadon wear

979
01:31:07,800 --> 01:31:10,433
and it was, it was in the, like the

980
01:31:10,433 --> 01:31:12,899
technical side of it was like, why is it

981
01:31:12,899 --> 01:31:13,866
green? Like what makes

982
01:31:13,866 --> 01:31:16,566
it green? But then, like, why did they

983
01:31:16,566 --> 01:31:18,966
want it to be green? That had to do with

984
01:31:18,966 --> 01:31:21,666
the popularity of jade

985
01:31:22,133 --> 01:31:25,366
and the rarity of jade. And so it was an

986
01:31:25,366 --> 01:31:26,699
effort to make a ceramic

987
01:31:26,699 --> 01:31:28,766
that had similar color qualities

988
01:31:28,833 --> 01:31:30,633
to jade. So it's like a really cool

989
01:31:30,633 --> 01:31:31,733
example of like the

990
01:31:31,733 --> 01:31:33,766
intersection between cultural history

991
01:31:33,766 --> 01:31:36,699
and understanding and the science and

992
01:31:36,699 --> 01:31:38,866
bringing the two together in a way where

993
01:31:38,866 --> 01:31:40,333
each sort of like had

994
01:31:40,333 --> 01:31:41,266
something interesting. Yeah, and we're

995
01:31:41,266 --> 01:31:42,666
trying to parallel those same

996
01:31:42,666 --> 01:31:44,500
multifaceted conversations

997
01:31:44,933 --> 01:31:46,866
in our engineering classes where it's,

998
01:31:46,866 --> 01:31:47,466
okay, what is the

999
01:31:47,466 --> 01:31:48,666
technical performance of this

1000
01:31:49,166 --> 01:31:53,133
system? Sure, great. What's the value of

1001
01:31:53,133 --> 01:31:54,233
it economically?

1002
01:31:54,566 --> 01:31:55,566
Sure, but also culturally,

1003
01:31:55,800 --> 01:31:57,766
is this something that people want? Is

1004
01:31:57,766 --> 01:31:58,633
this something that will

1005
01:31:58,633 --> 01:32:00,033
convey some sort of status

1006
01:32:00,199 --> 01:32:02,433
to the owner? Like these are all aspects

1007
01:32:02,433 --> 01:32:04,666
of, of this problem of

1008
01:32:04,666 --> 01:32:06,800
product design aesthetics,

1009
01:32:06,833 --> 01:32:09,033
like does it look good? If it's ugly,

1010
01:32:09,033 --> 01:32:09,966
people aren't going to

1011
01:32:09,966 --> 01:32:11,733
want it. And it's so easy for

1012
01:32:11,733 --> 01:32:14,033
students to get in this narrow vein of

1013
01:32:14,033 --> 01:32:16,333
what is the technical performance that

1014
01:32:16,333 --> 01:32:18,533
any, any venue or any

1015
01:32:18,933 --> 01:32:20,933
vehicle that we have to get them out of

1016
01:32:20,933 --> 01:32:22,000
that limited mindset and

1017
01:32:22,000 --> 01:32:23,300
say, what about the rest of

1018
01:32:23,300 --> 01:32:24,433
the world? I feel like it's very

1019
01:32:24,433 --> 01:32:26,733
important. Yeah, yep. It

1020
01:32:26,733 --> 01:32:28,133
actually reminds me of like,

1021
01:32:28,466 --> 01:32:30,800
one of the definitions of art that I

1022
01:32:30,800 --> 01:32:32,866
really dislike is this

1023
01:32:32,866 --> 01:32:35,633
definition. Like art is anything

1024
01:32:35,633 --> 01:32:37,533
that doesn't have to do with survival,

1025
01:32:37,766 --> 01:32:38,866
right? Because it's like,

1026
01:32:39,233 --> 01:32:40,733
we have survival needs and

1027
01:32:40,733 --> 01:32:43,633
we make tools to help us survive. And

1028
01:32:43,633 --> 01:32:45,033
then art's like this extra

1029
01:32:45,033 --> 01:32:46,899
thing. And I'm like, when we think

1030
01:32:46,933 --> 01:32:49,433
about design, that's exactly where those

1031
01:32:49,433 --> 01:32:50,800
two come together. Like

1032
01:32:50,800 --> 01:32:52,566
the way a tool is designed

1033
01:32:53,233 --> 01:32:55,899
is like integral to how usable it is,

1034
01:32:55,899 --> 01:32:57,266
right? And it's integral to

1035
01:32:57,266 --> 01:32:58,566
how it like supports life.

1036
01:32:59,399 --> 01:33:02,166
So like, so like, design is a like a

1037
01:33:02,166 --> 01:33:03,433
very, like, it's a place

1038
01:33:03,433 --> 01:33:05,466
where sort of like the technical

1039
01:33:05,566 --> 01:33:07,733
side and the cultural side come

1040
01:33:07,733 --> 01:33:09,533
intimately together. And

1041
01:33:09,533 --> 01:33:11,333
they're vital, right? They're not,

1042
01:33:11,333 --> 01:33:13,033
it's not like, oh, we make a tool and

1043
01:33:13,033 --> 01:33:14,133
then we give it design just

1044
01:33:14,133 --> 01:33:16,633
so it looks nice or something

1045
01:33:16,699 --> 01:33:18,733
that design needs to be integrated into

1046
01:33:18,733 --> 01:33:19,866
the functionality of

1047
01:33:19,866 --> 01:33:22,033
the thing. Yeah, it's, it

1048
01:33:22,033 --> 01:33:23,633
sometimes gets to be this problem that's

1049
01:33:23,633 --> 01:33:25,366
left aside until the end. And

1050
01:33:25,366 --> 01:33:28,366
then people will try to tack on

1051
01:33:28,666 --> 01:33:30,533
the other considerations after they've

1052
01:33:30,533 --> 01:33:31,133
declared the problem

1053
01:33:31,133 --> 01:33:32,833
solved. And well, that's not going

1054
01:33:32,833 --> 01:33:34,433
to give you an effective solution. It's

1055
01:33:34,433 --> 01:33:38,166
going to be obviously disjoint. And

1056
01:33:40,366 --> 01:33:41,866
absolutely. And it goes, I mean, that

1057
01:33:41,866 --> 01:33:43,633
goes back to like early 20th century

1058
01:33:43,633 --> 01:33:44,833
Bauhaus principles of

1059
01:33:44,833 --> 01:33:46,966
design, which is like the meat, like

1060
01:33:46,966 --> 01:33:48,366
things should be designed

1061
01:33:48,366 --> 01:33:50,066
for the meeting of form and

1062
01:33:50,066 --> 01:33:53,066
function. And it's in design isn't about

1063
01:33:53,066 --> 01:33:54,666
putting a facade on

1064
01:33:54,666 --> 01:33:56,133
something in order to make it look

1065
01:33:56,133 --> 01:33:58,100
better. Design is part of it. It

1066
01:33:58,100 --> 01:34:01,366
certainly is. I do have to keep an eye on

1067
01:34:01,366 --> 01:34:03,466
the clock. But before we

1068
01:34:03,566 --> 01:34:06,800
wrap it up for the day, for people in the

1069
01:34:06,800 --> 01:34:08,866
audience who might be interested in this

1070
01:34:08,866 --> 01:34:09,633
sort of collaboration

1071
01:34:09,633 --> 01:34:11,300
that you and I have had, right, where

1072
01:34:11,300 --> 01:34:13,066
worlds have collided, and we

1073
01:34:13,066 --> 01:34:13,933
created this new thing that

1074
01:34:13,966 --> 01:34:16,433
didn't exist before. How does that

1075
01:34:16,433 --> 01:34:19,000
happen? For you and me, it was just as

1076
01:34:19,000 --> 01:34:20,266
you said, it was serendipity,

1077
01:34:20,266 --> 01:34:21,533
someone happened to reach out to someone

1078
01:34:21,533 --> 01:34:24,433
else. But if someone wants to start a

1079
01:34:24,433 --> 01:34:25,166
community engagement

1080
01:34:25,233 --> 01:34:27,833
program, or if someone wants to work with

1081
01:34:27,833 --> 01:34:29,366
their local art

1082
01:34:29,366 --> 01:34:32,600
communities or local museum, to have

1083
01:34:32,600 --> 01:34:34,633
that collaboration between the technical

1084
01:34:34,633 --> 01:34:37,533
discipline, right? And that legendary

1085
01:34:37,533 --> 01:34:39,066
other side, the humanities,

1086
01:34:39,866 --> 01:34:41,133
how do we get that started? What's the

1087
01:34:41,133 --> 01:34:42,533
right way for someone like me

1088
01:34:42,533 --> 01:34:43,466
to approach someone like you

1089
01:34:43,466 --> 01:34:44,866
and say, hey, we should hang out

1090
01:34:44,866 --> 01:34:51,233
together? Yeah. Man, I mean, in a way,

1091
01:34:51,233 --> 01:34:52,633
that's like part of my job.

1092
01:34:53,033 --> 01:34:55,033
So I mean, if you're at the university,

1093
01:34:55,033 --> 01:34:56,233
and you want to do something

1094
01:34:56,233 --> 01:34:58,433
interesting with a class or

1095
01:34:59,000 --> 01:35:00,866
academic program or anything at all, I

1096
01:35:00,866 --> 01:35:01,533
mean, I'm the person

1097
01:35:01,533 --> 01:35:02,666
you'd get in touch with, but

1098
01:35:02,766 --> 01:35:09,366
sort of just speaking in general. So I

1099
01:35:09,366 --> 01:35:10,399
guess I got sort of two ways

1100
01:35:10,399 --> 01:35:11,233
to think about this. So one,

1101
01:35:11,266 --> 01:35:12,733
as far as like working with communities

1102
01:35:12,733 --> 01:35:14,033
and just doing something that's

1103
01:35:14,033 --> 01:35:15,066
interesting to communities,

1104
01:35:16,100 --> 01:35:18,666
like doing something that's like making

1105
01:35:18,666 --> 01:35:20,066
like a hands on sort of

1106
01:35:20,066 --> 01:35:21,133
thing is going to be way more

1107
01:35:21,133 --> 01:35:22,833
appealing. And if you can, like, if

1108
01:35:22,833 --> 01:35:23,666
you're interested in

1109
01:35:23,666 --> 01:35:26,100
bringing, like, you know, like

1110
01:35:26,133 --> 01:35:28,366
knowledge about the properties of paper

1111
01:35:28,366 --> 01:35:30,466
to a broader audience,

1112
01:35:30,466 --> 01:35:31,466
doing it through like an

1113
01:35:31,466 --> 01:35:33,366
origami workshop or something would be

1114
01:35:33,366 --> 01:35:34,833
like the way to do that, because people

1115
01:35:34,833 --> 01:35:35,466
are always interested

1116
01:35:35,733 --> 01:35:38,366
in hands on activities. And then if you

1117
01:35:38,366 --> 01:35:40,833
can tack on the sorts of

1118
01:35:40,833 --> 01:35:43,133
like, expertise on top of that,

1119
01:35:43,399 --> 01:35:44,666
then it's like, you know, it's an

1120
01:35:44,666 --> 01:35:46,966
enticing package. And then

1121
01:35:46,966 --> 01:35:48,466
also, it's like you're going

1122
01:35:48,466 --> 01:35:50,133
back to that engaged learning thing as

1123
01:35:50,133 --> 01:35:51,600
you have people make

1124
01:35:51,600 --> 01:35:53,133
something and then ask what their

1125
01:35:53,133 --> 01:35:55,166
experience of the materiality was and

1126
01:35:55,166 --> 01:35:56,933
then bring in what you know about the

1127
01:35:56,933 --> 01:35:57,533
things, you know, that

1128
01:35:57,533 --> 01:35:59,000
sort of thing. So like really doing

1129
01:35:59,000 --> 01:36:00,433
something participatory and

1130
01:36:00,433 --> 01:36:01,866
inviting their involvement,

1131
01:36:02,133 --> 01:36:05,233
as far as like working with an

1132
01:36:05,233 --> 01:36:07,433
institution and, you know, trying to

1133
01:36:07,433 --> 01:36:08,933
partner with them to do things,

1134
01:36:09,266 --> 01:36:11,733
I would say, like, in general, like

1135
01:36:11,733 --> 01:36:12,866
culture workers are like

1136
01:36:12,866 --> 01:36:14,466
very overworked. And it's like,

1137
01:36:14,466 --> 01:36:15,966
there's so many cool things we could be

1138
01:36:15,966 --> 01:36:18,433
working on. And it's hard to decide what

1139
01:36:18,433 --> 01:36:19,533
things to prioritize.

1140
01:36:20,199 --> 01:36:24,333
So having some kind of organization or

1141
01:36:24,333 --> 01:36:26,033
some kind of clear idea of

1142
01:36:26,033 --> 01:36:27,533
what you want to do can be really

1143
01:36:27,566 --> 01:36:29,333
helpful. And then like working with the

1144
01:36:29,333 --> 01:36:30,166
museum as kind of a

1145
01:36:30,166 --> 01:36:34,866
platform to present a program that

1146
01:36:34,866 --> 01:36:36,533
you put together can be really helpful.

1147
01:36:37,166 --> 01:36:38,233
Also, another, I guess,

1148
01:36:38,233 --> 01:36:39,533
another sort of key part of

1149
01:36:39,533 --> 01:36:41,666
working with like cultural institutions

1150
01:36:41,666 --> 01:36:43,933
is like, we tend to work really far in

1151
01:36:43,933 --> 01:36:45,933
the future. So like,

1152
01:36:45,933 --> 01:36:47,766
you know, talking early about something

1153
01:36:47,766 --> 01:36:49,500
you want to do in the future is also

1154
01:36:49,500 --> 01:36:50,699
extremely helpful. Like

1155
01:36:50,699 --> 01:36:52,566
we're working on things that are going to

1156
01:36:52,566 --> 01:36:53,933
happen in two, three years.

1157
01:36:54,333 --> 01:36:54,833
We're working on things that

1158
01:36:54,833 --> 01:36:56,399
are going to happen next week, six

1159
01:36:56,399 --> 01:36:59,199
months, a year, two years, three years.

1160
01:36:59,500 --> 01:37:01,433
So it's hard to keep a

1161
01:37:01,433 --> 01:37:03,366
handle on. Yeah, I guess the takeaway I'm

1162
01:37:03,366 --> 01:37:04,566
getting here is actually

1163
01:37:04,566 --> 01:37:06,166
plan ahead and actually have a

1164
01:37:06,166 --> 01:37:07,933
concept for what you want to do. And it's

1165
01:37:07,933 --> 01:37:09,000
amazing how if you do that,

1166
01:37:09,000 --> 01:37:10,933
you can get people to, to be

1167
01:37:10,933 --> 01:37:14,899
on board with it. Yeah, yeah. And hands

1168
01:37:14,899 --> 01:37:17,066
on things, hands on things are great.

1169
01:37:17,800 --> 01:37:18,433
That's something I'm

1170
01:37:18,466 --> 01:37:20,966
always like, I'm looking for new ways to

1171
01:37:20,966 --> 01:37:23,166
add, just like drawing

1172
01:37:23,166 --> 01:37:24,833
activities or just, you know,

1173
01:37:25,233 --> 01:37:26,833
with a lot of classes, just doing

1174
01:37:26,833 --> 01:37:28,966
something where the students are doing a

1175
01:37:28,966 --> 01:37:29,733
little little bit of

1176
01:37:29,733 --> 01:37:33,300
making, even if it's just asking them to

1177
01:37:33,300 --> 01:37:34,633
draw some lines in response

1178
01:37:34,633 --> 01:37:37,300
to prompts. That's a, it's a

1179
01:37:37,300 --> 01:37:40,133
really, it's participatory and fun. And

1180
01:37:40,133 --> 01:37:41,166
there's not right answers.

1181
01:37:41,833 --> 01:37:43,133
All right. Well, yeah, since

1182
01:37:43,133 --> 01:37:44,733
it's time to wrap up for today, I'll say

1183
01:37:44,733 --> 01:37:46,133
if you have a minute and you

1184
01:37:46,133 --> 01:37:46,866
want to talk about anything

1185
01:37:46,933 --> 01:37:48,766
that you're doing right now, anything you

1186
01:37:48,766 --> 01:37:49,833
want to brag about

1187
01:37:49,833 --> 01:37:50,933
anything you want to plug to the

1188
01:37:50,933 --> 01:37:52,866
audience, tell us what's going on at UMA.

1189
01:37:53,866 --> 01:37:57,266
Oh, man. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So

1190
01:37:57,266 --> 01:37:59,033
just in my, in my work area,

1191
01:37:59,033 --> 01:38:01,033
we just put up a new set of curriculum

1192
01:38:01,033 --> 01:38:04,100
collection displays. One of

1193
01:38:04,100 --> 01:38:05,766
which is in this, like a very

1194
01:38:05,766 --> 01:38:08,533
cool, cool combo. So in my exhibition

1195
01:38:08,533 --> 01:38:10,633
space on one side, we have a class on

1196
01:38:10,633 --> 01:38:11,633
interfaith understanding.

1197
01:38:12,133 --> 01:38:14,166
So it's a lot of art about different

1198
01:38:14,166 --> 01:38:15,966
religious faiths and also about sort of

1199
01:38:15,966 --> 01:38:16,766
interfaith identities

1200
01:38:16,833 --> 01:38:20,766
and experiences. And then sharing that

1201
01:38:20,766 --> 01:38:22,666
space is a new class in the

1202
01:38:22,666 --> 01:38:23,966
history of art called Arts and

1203
01:38:23,966 --> 01:38:26,199
Cultures of Star Wars, which is actually

1204
01:38:26,199 --> 01:38:27,100
a collaboration with

1205
01:38:27,100 --> 01:38:28,366
the Museum of Anthropology

1206
01:38:28,533 --> 01:38:30,899
as well. And that's a class that's

1207
01:38:30,899 --> 01:38:32,666
looking sort of like doing sort of a

1208
01:38:32,666 --> 01:38:34,866
cultural critical look at the

1209
01:38:35,166 --> 01:38:37,733
sort of representation of otherness and

1210
01:38:37,733 --> 01:38:39,733
difference in the context of

1211
01:38:39,733 --> 01:38:41,633
Star Wars and sort of paying

1212
01:38:41,633 --> 01:38:43,766
attention to the way that so much of that

1213
01:38:43,766 --> 01:38:45,100
representation is sort

1214
01:38:45,100 --> 01:38:46,933
of conditioned by settler

1215
01:38:46,933 --> 01:38:51,233
colonialism. So those are some, you know,

1216
01:38:51,466 --> 01:38:52,466
those are the current curriculum

1217
01:38:52,466 --> 01:38:53,566
collection installations

1218
01:38:53,566 --> 01:38:55,899
we have up. Another thing I'd like to

1219
01:38:55,899 --> 01:38:57,699
just like give a plug for,

1220
01:38:57,699 --> 01:38:59,133
which is just because I think

1221
01:38:59,133 --> 01:39:01,500
it's a really interesting project is I'm

1222
01:39:01,500 --> 01:39:03,466
working with a faculty in

1223
01:39:03,466 --> 01:39:04,266
the School of Nursing named

1224
01:39:04,266 --> 01:39:07,399
Clayton Schumann on a project that we're

1225
01:39:07,399 --> 01:39:08,500
calling Art-spective,

1226
01:39:09,533 --> 01:39:11,133
which is actually, so

1227
01:39:13,000 --> 01:39:16,666
Clayton works in, he works on bias in

1228
01:39:16,666 --> 01:39:18,899
medical care. And he was

1229
01:39:18,899 --> 01:39:21,233
specifically looking for a way

1230
01:39:21,399 --> 01:39:24,466
to, looking for a new way to do anti-bias

1231
01:39:24,466 --> 01:39:25,533
training, especially

1232
01:39:25,533 --> 01:39:26,866
with neonatal nurses.

1233
01:39:27,866 --> 01:39:29,500
And specifically, he has this project

1234
01:39:29,500 --> 01:39:30,466
where, you know, he's

1235
01:39:30,466 --> 01:39:32,433
trying to reduce bias of neonatal

1236
01:39:32,433 --> 01:39:34,966
nurses toward new mothers suffering from

1237
01:39:34,966 --> 01:39:37,033
opioid addiction and trying

1238
01:39:37,033 --> 01:39:38,333
to support the mothers and,

1239
01:39:38,333 --> 01:39:40,466
you know, in recovery and in being

1240
01:39:40,466 --> 01:39:44,966
mothers. And but so I did a like, I did

1241
01:39:44,966 --> 01:39:46,533
like a, what's a pretty

1242
01:39:46,533 --> 01:39:48,266
standard sort of empathy building

1243
01:39:48,266 --> 01:39:50,666
exercise in museum pedagogy,

1244
01:39:50,666 --> 01:39:52,166
like I did not invent it. It's

1245
01:39:52,166 --> 01:39:53,866
called a perspective flipping exercise

1246
01:39:53,866 --> 01:39:55,466
where you basically look at a photograph

1247
01:39:55,466 --> 01:39:56,233
and kind of describe

1248
01:39:56,233 --> 01:39:57,833
it for as a from a third person

1249
01:39:57,833 --> 01:39:59,966
perspective. And then somebody else

1250
01:39:59,966 --> 01:40:01,300
approaches it from the

1251
01:40:01,399 --> 01:40:03,166
perspective of one of the people in the

1252
01:40:03,166 --> 01:40:04,666
image. And then you kind

1253
01:40:04,666 --> 01:40:06,333
of compare how you read the

1254
01:40:06,333 --> 01:40:07,833
image differently, depending on if you're

1255
01:40:07,833 --> 01:40:08,866
taking an outside perspective

1256
01:40:08,866 --> 01:40:10,666
or a first person perspective.

1257
01:40:11,433 --> 01:40:12,966
The person who takes the first person

1258
01:40:12,966 --> 01:40:15,133
first person first person perspective,

1259
01:40:15,933 --> 01:40:17,933
sees much more agency in the image, they

1260
01:40:17,933 --> 01:40:19,766
like give a story and they give reasons

1261
01:40:19,766 --> 01:40:21,000
to like whatever the

1262
01:40:21,000 --> 01:40:23,266
person's doing. Whereas when you do the

1263
01:40:23,266 --> 01:40:24,100
third person perspective,

1264
01:40:24,100 --> 01:40:25,333
people tend to be kind of

1265
01:40:25,333 --> 01:40:27,866
like biased and judgmental. So that we

1266
01:40:27,866 --> 01:40:29,366
did that exercise with him.

1267
01:40:29,366 --> 01:40:30,866
And we did some studies with

1268
01:40:30,933 --> 01:40:32,766
some nursing students. And we actually,

1269
01:40:33,333 --> 01:40:33,866
you know, he did some

1270
01:40:33,866 --> 01:40:35,433
before and after surveys and

1271
01:40:35,766 --> 01:40:38,199
proved statistically that it increased

1272
01:40:38,199 --> 01:40:39,199
the empathy of the

1273
01:40:39,199 --> 01:40:40,733
people who participated in it.

1274
01:40:41,033 --> 01:40:42,933
And so now we're actually working on

1275
01:40:42,933 --> 01:40:44,533
trying to turn it into an

1276
01:40:44,533 --> 01:40:46,033
online education platform

1277
01:40:46,666 --> 01:40:49,199
that like, hopefully, like, you know,

1278
01:40:49,199 --> 01:40:50,566
medical organizations can

1279
01:40:50,566 --> 01:40:52,133
can buy this as an anti bias

1280
01:40:52,199 --> 01:40:54,199
training and people will go on and

1281
01:40:54,199 --> 01:40:55,933
they'll sort of do the exercise online,

1282
01:40:55,933 --> 01:40:57,233
the way that we facilitate

1283
01:40:57,566 --> 01:41:00,133
it in person. But going back to the thing

1284
01:41:00,133 --> 01:41:00,899
we were saying about bias

1285
01:41:00,899 --> 01:41:02,000
earlier, so the thing that's

1286
01:41:02,000 --> 01:41:04,133
cool about this exercise is different

1287
01:41:04,133 --> 01:41:05,266
than a lot of other bias

1288
01:41:05,266 --> 01:41:07,466
training, is it kind of puts people

1289
01:41:07,566 --> 01:41:09,366
through an experience where they notice

1290
01:41:09,366 --> 01:41:11,533
their own bias and become

1291
01:41:11,533 --> 01:41:13,333
aware of it. And it's not like

1292
01:41:13,333 --> 01:41:15,100
somebody else was saying like, you were

1293
01:41:15,100 --> 01:41:16,166
biased right there. It's

1294
01:41:16,166 --> 01:41:17,500
like they notice it themselves.

1295
01:41:18,166 --> 01:41:20,533
And then they there makes people less

1296
01:41:20,533 --> 01:41:23,500
defensive and hopefully just like, like,

1297
01:41:23,933 --> 01:41:24,600
you know, more aware

1298
01:41:24,866 --> 01:41:26,966
of it and trying to reduce it in

1299
01:41:26,966 --> 01:41:28,766
themselves. So I think that's one of the

1300
01:41:28,766 --> 01:41:30,333
effectiveness. One of the

1301
01:41:30,333 --> 01:41:31,766
reasons that that's effective is because

1302
01:41:31,766 --> 01:41:33,533
it once it's like what I was

1303
01:41:33,533 --> 01:41:34,666
saying about art is a screen

1304
01:41:34,666 --> 01:41:37,066
in a way, it's like it allows people to

1305
01:41:37,066 --> 01:41:38,766
think about bias and think

1306
01:41:38,766 --> 01:41:40,066
about their own biases without

1307
01:41:40,066 --> 01:41:41,466
being put on the spot. That sounds

1308
01:41:41,466 --> 01:41:44,266
fantastic. I'm very much now thinking

1309
01:41:44,266 --> 01:41:45,833
about how that might be

1310
01:41:45,833 --> 01:41:48,100
employed in a case study analysis and

1311
01:41:48,100 --> 01:41:49,233
engineering class, right?

1312
01:41:49,600 --> 01:41:50,566
Describe this case from the

1313
01:41:50,633 --> 01:41:52,733
perspective of someone who experienced it

1314
01:41:52,733 --> 01:41:54,033
rather than what we see

1315
01:41:54,033 --> 01:41:55,133
historically after the fact.

1316
01:41:55,566 --> 01:41:57,266
But that's an exercise for a future

1317
01:41:57,266 --> 01:42:00,666
episode. Yeah, I was gonna

1318
01:42:00,666 --> 01:42:02,333
go on. I'll stop. I've taken

1319
01:42:02,366 --> 01:42:04,066
enough of your time. I'm really glad that

1320
01:42:04,066 --> 01:42:05,566
you were able to make time to join us

1321
01:42:05,566 --> 01:42:07,366
today. Great to have

1322
01:42:07,366 --> 01:42:10,199
you here. And hopefully I'll talk to you

1323
01:42:10,199 --> 01:42:11,566
again soon for everyone out

1324
01:42:11,566 --> 01:42:12,500
in the audience. We'll see

1325
01:42:12,533 --> 01:42:16,500
you next time. Great. Thanks so much.