Good morning, Great Connections listeners and welcome to 2024.
I'm really excited to kick off this year's first episode with Matt Teske.
He's the founder of Chargeway.
And coincidentally for long-term listeners, you may know Matt was actually
in the first episode of Great Connections we've recorded.
So it's really an honor to have him on again, and especially to talk with him
about the new version of Chargeway.
They're officially calling it 2.0 of the app.
But we go through some of the new functionality and how it makes it a lot
easier for even existing users of EVs that want to road trip or just kind of learn
more about charging around them to really explore and use a lot more functionality.
In addition, I think this is a great episode for anyone who might be new to
charging or road tripping EVs and have been kind of curious what other options
are out there to really try and make it as hassle-free as possible and Chargeway has
always been a great example of.
what they're doing to really try and streamline the process.
And it's a really fascinating company because they're making really big inroads,
but they're also a very small and agile team.
We talked to them about the new version along with some of the current other
things that Chargeway does around even offering in dealership beacons and other
educational material that even current users might not be aware of.
And if you're in the auto OEM industry, I definitely recommend.
reaching out to Chargeway to look at these other ways to maybe educate your current
staff.
I think after we really talk about the new and kind of fascinating parts of
Chargeway, we also got to talk just about the larger EV charging ecosystem right now
and some of the pros and cons of what we're seeing.
For those of you who are interested in either trying out, learning more, or even
downloading the Chargeway app, you can find all that information in today's show
notes.
So with that, I just want to say welcome again to 2024 and please enjoy this
episode with Matt Teske of Chargeway.
Enjoy.
Thank you for having me chase.
Good to see you again.
Yeah.
Just in case people aren't familiar with you or Chargeway or haven't heard the
previous episodes, can you just give a real quick overview of what your team is
doing and how you're making a huge impact in the EV space today?
Definitely.
Yeah.
Chargeway for those who aren't familiar with what we do.
Chargeway is a software platform and mobile app.
And we simplify EV charging and how to understand how EV charging works.
And we focus on that by allowing you to choose your EV inside of our mobile app,
for example, and then we do all the thinking for you.
And then our UI is unique, our user interface, and that it uses colors for
plug types and simple numbers for power levels so that when you look at the map,
you know, that you can go to green stations because your vehicle has a green
plug.
And then you will know the maximum charge level of your vehicle is, let's say a
level six, and then you'll see fives and sixes and sevens on the map.
You can use all those, you can use the seven, but you'd only, you'd max out at
six because of your car.
It's a way to just super simplify how to understand how charging works by sake of
can you connect and then how long will your charge take?
So we've been, we initially introduced the idea about, wow, six years ago now, it was
originally when we just, I walked around with a laptop at a conference and said,
here's an idea.
And it turned into a software platform and mobile app.
And just recently we launched version 2.0 of our software for the mobile app.
And
huge response has been great, because it's not only a station finder, it's also a
trip planner.
And it's got a lot of other features that I'm sure we can dive into.
But our goal and mission is to just take all that engineering that is difficult to
navigate with EV charging and do a lot of thinking for folks.
That's really what we want to accomplish.
So yeah, I think what's so great about your approach in the platform is, I think
a lot of people listening, they're going to know the difference between a kilowatt,
a kilowatt hour, the
difference between a LFP and an NMC battery chemistry, all these different
things that I know our listeners kind of nerd out and really enjoying what we like.
But at the end of the day, it's as much as we like to think that the world revolves
around us, we're a small group of the small section that is the automotive
industry.
And for most people, it's just one part of, that they don't even think about of
their daily lives.
And that's what I love about what you're doing and what you're so passionate about
is to really simplify this.
I've kind of even jokingly said, I don't know if I ever tell you this, but I've
kind of jokingly said it's like, it's the grandma EV app.
Like you just, it's so simple where you can give it to, it makes, there's a lot of
people that love EVs because of all the technology, but I do know quite a few
people that kind of like the simple traditional car because, uh, right or
wrong through, uh, maybe bad marketing or just, uh, lack of exposure from other
companies, it's kind of made EVs seem like, okay, I'm buying a new appliance or
I've got to know all these things.
And what your software does on the app.
And I believe now with some of the integrations to even kind of show up in
the car infotainment, it really does bring it down to be like, it removes all the
hassle and really figure it does all the hard work for you because.
Um, I think one of the other things too, is I love taking road trips in my AV.
And I'm kind of a big enough nerd to actually enjoy, okay, if I do this, I'll
be slightly more efficient if I avoid this mountain pass.
And it's, there is kind of, I've talked to a few other people in the
actually, John McElroy from auto line out Detroit even said this.
He's like, you know, one of the things that I find intriguing about EVs is it's
kind of like the Western frontier.
It's like, you're actually having to figure out all this stuff now that we've
kind of taken for granted for the last 50 years.
And he's right, but it shouldn't be that way for everyone.
If you want to see people actually, uh, be able to have an EV as their only car.
So I think it's really exciting to have you on.
a big part of the kind of the reason you're on today is with the second version
launch of Chargeway that recently happened.
So I think it would be great just to kind of, as you've already kind of said, the
history just kind of announced some of these big changes and what's really kicked
off 2.0 of Chargeway, Matt.
Yeah, well, the focus out of building the new version of the app and the software
was really it was born out of learning and talking to drivers as well as utilities,
auto dealers, other stakeholders about
what do they need and how do we have a collective conversation that can be an
easy conversation for everybody?
And so what we wanted to focus on with version 2.0 of the app was how do we take
features that people enjoy about what we did in the first version of the app, but
make it even all the more so integrated and automated?
And as an example, we often talk about how can we educate people on power.
And we see tactics all the time of,
let's call this hyper, let's call this ultra, let's call this super, let's call
this rapid, let's whatever.
And it doesn't help anybody understand it, it just, it's marketing, right?
And so we have our level system, levels one through seven, it clearly denotes that
there's differences and you can see that visual on the map.
But we took it a step further in the original app, we had a charge time
estimator, you could choose a power level, set your battery level and get an
estimated charge time based on the power level and based on what your car could do.
This was a separate feature before from the station map.
We basically just integrated that feature into the station map itself.
So now we have a dedicated vehicle detail screen where you can adjust your battery
range and then everything that happens on the map is then dynamic to your vehicle
settings.
So you can then click on power levels all throughout the map and it will give you an
estimated charge time based on your vehicle's capabilities, the station's
capabilities, taking into account charging curve, all those little things that we
know are happening in the background but we serve up what people want to know,
which is
If I'm driving this car and I pull up at that station with X percent left, how long
do I gotta wait?
I mean, that's what average people want to know.
And so we're focused on having a different conversation than most people in the
industry.
Yeah.
I think, uh, I mean, even before we started recording, you kind of mentioned
the experience you recently had in an auto show where these people were looking at a
one brand of car, cause that's what they knew.
And
They're like, okay, this will take so long.
It'll be two charges.
And then you kind of had to be realistic when it's like, well, have you looked at
this other brand where it essentially makes it one stop and it's a much shorter
stop?
And I think that's what really helps.
Um, I mean, I'll even say I'm a pretty big visual learner.
And I think your UI has done a really good job of solving a lot of the issues.
I think there's other apps out there.
Obviously there's the plug shares of the world that'll rate the charger.
Um, but your technology kind of
goes a little bit beyond that where it even has the route planning functionality.
But I think as anyone who's listening to this has probably unfortunately seen or
experienced, uh, you pull up, let's say it electrify America.
I can't remember if it's the hyper, the fast, the light speed charger, whatever
the 350 kilowatt one is.
And there's a Chevy bolt there and no offense to Chevy bolt drivers, but those
things top out like 60 kilowatts.
And I have seen it myself.
You're being generous.
Yeah.
And there are, I know plenty of horror stories where someone comes like, no, I
plug here because my, it charges faster.
And it's like, well, unfortunately that's not exactly true.
They hear language like hyper or something and they hear that's the faster one.
So if they don't know what they don't know, they just grab it thinking it'll be
faster, not having any clue.
And so one of the things we actually built into the new trip planner for Chargeway,
the updated version of it, is depending on the vehicle you're driving, once we route
you to stations and suggest your stops,
if there are multiple power levels at that location, we will suggest the optimized
power level for your vehicle to optimize throughput at that station.
Because that way it's not about having a discussion about hyper versus 150 or 350
kilowatt or what have you.
You just go, look, if there was a gigantic green seven and a gigantic green six on
these chargers, and this thing is telling me go to the six because my car is only
capable of charging up to level four, it helps quickly educate on, oh, it doesn't
matter if I use six or seven.
It's the same Phillips speed.
It gets away from the, the fluffy marketing of just saying something to say
something to make it sound great and actually educates people.
And that's the one thing we really focused on with the version two app was to say,
how do we make this truly customized to each user, but also make it really smart.
And I will say, I mean, Chargeway now, in my opinion, it is the most intuitive and,
and intelligent app you can use for EV charging.
because we are doing so much of the math behind the scenes for you to make it
simple.
And I think that was one of the best compliments we received from someone, as
they said, it seems, just looking at it, seems so easy and so simple, but because I
know how much complicated technology and engineering is, and math is going on, that
means you were able to make it this simple because you understand the engineering.
And I said, yeah, that's a very good compliment.
I appreciate that.
So, I mean, and this was coming from someone who's an early adopter who said,
you know, I'm skeptical of everything that doesn't give me
at all the data right up front.
But you guys are managing it really well.
So I think we'll have more and more of those moments now that we have, as far as
I'm concerned, was just a more elegant modern interface in the product.
And it's just really well polished.
And so far the feedback has been phenomenal.
Yeah, that's great to hear.
And I mean, I've even seen some of the feedback just randomly on Twitter and
other places where people have been kind of leaving those responses that they've
been happy with this new software update.
But I think while
saying it's 2.0 is a big step and there's obviously a lot going on in the back end.
There's it's been a fascinating just to me as someone who's going to follow
Charredway for so long to see all of the additions that your company has added.
Because obviously it started as an app and then it was like, okay.
And when it started as an app, there were far fewer cars.
So it's like, okay, you've got the Tesla UI and then there's like two other cars
that you have to figure this out for.
So this helps us to other cars.
But obviously that's drastically changed.
And even as a Tesla driver, it's kind of fun to use and play around with it to just
look at other options when you're, believe it or not, in areas where there aren't as
many superchargers.
Having said that now, we look at where Chargeway started, where it's going.
I think it'd be really interesting to talk with you about the beacons and all these
other kinds of things that you guys are now doing that are actually more or less
using that software you built for the app,
a whole the other side of kind of the education and getting the awareness of how
to make charging much easier for people.
Oh yeah, that's the big thing that we were focused on with again, the beacon, the
charge weight beacon as we call it is a retail kiosk that uses the exact same
software as the mobile app.
And the intent was to say, let's design a way to explain and visualize what is a
very chaotic landscape for understanding how to navigate charging.
but make it consistent through every touch point someone is gonna have through their
customer journey, whether that's researching online and they're at a
website, we can put it in a website.
If they go to a showroom for a car that they were interested in buying, they have
it in the showroom.
And then they find out they can download it to their pocket.
The repetition of simple consistency, with simple consistency is very important in
retail marketing and retail products.
And that's what we've sought to create in an agnostic and holistic fashion.
So,
People sometimes ask, like, what's the one liner of charge?
I'm like, well, it's the branding of electricity as a fuel.
That's what it is.
It's a packaged way to visualize all the options you need to know how to navigate.
And then it's...
tailored because it's software to the automaker that you want to look at to the
dealership and the brands that they sell and then inevitably to the car that you
buy.
Again, it's it is designed with a lot of intelligence behind the scenes.
And the beacon is an example was just one way to address a big problem, which is
dealers.
They don't they don't ever have to explain fuel when they're selling a gas car.
They just say go buy it and go to the gas station.
You're fine.
And that's how most people shop.
So to your point about that example, that one couple we talked to.
they had a brand of vehicle they've always bought.
And so when they think we need to buy a new car, this brand we've always owned has
an electric version now.
Well, that's of course the one we're gonna buy because we trust that brand.
They're not thinking even as a consumer, I have to shop thinking about energy
efficiency of the battery pack based on the range.
What is the charging capability?
And some of this stuff will even out over time, but it's not gonna happen overnight.
And to quote Gabe Klein from the joint office for DOT and DOE,
He's on a podcast that they did internally.
He said, adapters are going to be a part of EV ownership for the foreseeable
future.
And so this element of you have to know you can connect to fill up.
And then once you've connected, how long do you have to wait?
These are fundamental questions that average people need answered quickly.
Whereas early adopters, they'll dig all the way down in the weeds and find the
answers like you or me might.
But
Yeah, face value, if we want to grow the EV market and make people feel happy and
comfortable, we have to think differently about how we communicate.
And the beacon at the dealers is just one way to help solve that problem in the
journey someone will be on.
I think that summarizes it beautifully.
And you're totally right around making it easier for people because this really
actually isn't a new thing for automotive.
There's always been kind of like, obviously the automotive nerds who want to
look into the specs like, oh yeah, if I get the turbocharger for this, or if I get
the inline six versus the V4, there's clear.
things that 90% of people do not care about.
But there's always been that option.
The motor trend readers that are like, oh my gosh, the displacement on this thing is
crazy.
It's over 10 years, it's gone up by 0.1 liters.
Wow, there's three more horsepower.
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, color it however you want.
It's still being a nerd in a specific knowledge base.
And I think that's definitely true with EVs.
And I think it's great to see that, how that's grown because...
Uh, we've had a couple of the people on the podcast so far, and I've talked to
them where now you have the hot rotting community that's doing the same thing.
And they're looking at permanent magnet motors versus different types of matters
with this chemistry.
And they're kind of approaching it from that, but it's on the complete opposite
side of the guy who's trying to get down from 260 watt hours per mile to 250, just
to get that like extra efficiency out of it, but once again, very cool stuff across
the board, but those are outliers.
Well,
Yeah, it speaks to the issue that we've been talking about now for over a half a
decade, which is we have to ask ourselves, where are people coming from?
And anytime you're taking any product to market, this is just marketing 101, is if
there's an incumbent product that the general public loves using, and you're
trying to supplant that, okay, what is it about that product that they love?
And
The argument that many people use about, oh, if you buy an EV, you don't have to go
to that stinky gas station anymore.
My response is most people couldn't care less.
If they are buying gas, the biggest concern they always have is the price.
But the idea that a gas station is so stinky that they would never wanna go
there ever again, there are certainly people that will say that.
But is it the vast majority of the populace?
No, because if that were true, gas cars wouldn't be very successful.
But people are willing to deal with that to say,
I'll go fill up and it takes me five to 10 minutes and it costs me 50 bucks or 60 to
80, who knows, 100 bucks.
But they're willing to pay for that convenience of the other product that they
need, which is their mode of transportation.
So gas is just a built in necessity that they think they have to have.
How many times have we heard when people say, oh, it's a pure electric car and they
say, yeah, but where's the gas go?
Because they equate.
I still I even heard that a month ago about a Tesla and they're like, wait, what
makes them special?
They're just hybrids.
And I was like, I know they're joking.
But I mean, it's exactly true.
It's still funny.
It's and it's one of those things that I think that, you know, we've been beating
this drum now for literally years, but it's becoming more obvious now because as
we've been discussing, and as we chat about before we started is we're hitting
that mainstream market and these people
that we want to have buying into and believing EVs for their driving needs,
they need to be explained the information far differently than what we've been
doing.
We can't just keep going back to the well saying, well, everybody will think like an
early adopter.
And the answer is if that were true, Apple computers wouldn't exist.
I mean, so we really need to be thoughtful around how we present technology to
people.
And again, back to the incumbent aspect of what is the product people have been using
forever.
It's a magic liquid that yet smells
and it's expensive, but boy, when you get that magic liquid and you put it inside
your car, you get to move freely and quickly and it doesn't really take much
out of your life for time.
And so that's important.
And knowing how, if that's the competitive landscape of how you need to communicate
how your fuel works, you better be bringing more to the table than, well,
this is a J1772 7.2 AC kilowatt connector that can charge you up in about eight
hours time.
And then your only way to make that sound better is saying something ridiculous
like,
It takes me, I tell people it takes me 10 seconds to charge.
And every time I hear that, I say, please never say that again.
Because I could say the same thing about pumping gas.
Because all you're talking about is connecting to your fuel source.
I get you're being creative and kind of cute around, well, then I just go in my
house and I go on with my life.
Perfectly fine, but that's not what an average person that knows nothing needs to
hear.
They will actually want to know how long does it take to fill up.
And then when you break the news of, well, that's at my house and it takes, if I need
a full charge, about eight hours,
it immediately sounds terrible.
And then you're trying to regain their trust again by saying, oh, no, but then if
you find a DC fast charger, it only takes maybe 15 to 20 minutes.
And they go, great.
But then when they realize that that's the right fast charger with the right car, and
you see this game is we have to be much more thoughtful about how we communicate
this because people are gonna just start calling BS, frankly, on the EV industry.
And I for one can't blame them.
And that's what we've been working very hard to try to resolve.
So.
Totally, and I think it is just kind of a confusing juggling of, as you even said,
the J1772 versus the North American Charging Center and CCS1, CCS2.
It all seems to be kind of going more towards a single or depending on the
market, a unit, but even then that's still years away from, and we're not even sure
if that's gonna happen.
It looks like it will, but.
People said that about CCS a year ago.
They said that about Chattemo too.
That's the future.
But let's be fair, Tesla's plug type, which is now the Nax, NACS, J3400 if
you're talking SAE, it is without doubt the best design.
It is elegant, it's simple, it's lightweight, it's identical to what you'd
use at home and away from home.
So the user experience of that is very elegant.
And that's credit to them.
And it only took automakers that aren't named Tesla years to realize, oh yeah, the
fueling experience is a fundamental part of this ownership of an EV.
And so credit to Jim Farley when he said, you know what, hey, we're making a pivot.
And then everybody else that kind of came on after the fact, it's like, well, I
mean, not everybody's here yet.
I mean, in those mountains, like Volkswagen Group is still kind of saying
no.
And fairness, they've got billions invested into a charging network that
doesn't have NACs on it.
But these are things that even to your point, even we waved a magic wand
tomorrow, and if everything became, you know, the Tesla connector, the Naxx
connector, or the red connector in charge way overnight, we'd still have to contend
with power.
We still have that gamemanship of that conversation we just had about it takes me
10 seconds, oopsie, I meant eight hours and kind of thing.
So it's not like it's the silver bullet solution, but it certainly is a good step
forward, in my opinion, for making people enjoy the experience more for sure.
Well, it goes back to exactly what we were saying early about these other, uh, the
two brands that these other people were looking at because at that, there's that
in that comparison, they're talking about the same charge port, but the battery side
of it completely changes what that dynamic is and the charging ability for how often
and how long they have to stop to charge there with, uh, with the work you've kind
of done there with some of the integrations you've done with the
Cause I'd be kind of curious to hear your experience while Chargeway has kind of
evolved with, because I believe it's compatible with CarPlay and Android Auto
or just CarPlay or?
Currently CarPlay and Android Auto.
Yeah, we've been focused on trying to get that out to market.
Version two and the redesign basically got bumped up the list on getting that done.
But yeah, Android Auto for emulation for Android Auto is something that we're
hoping to have out at the beginning of the year.
So.
Well, in your experience of kind of going from the app to now the actual
infotainment in the car, were there any surprises or kind of any interesting
things that you learned with that addition?
Or was it kind of more or less now the, all that changes the view for the driver?
Oh, and actually, no, it's actually, it's the former.
It's the problem with, it's not a problem, but Android Auto and CarPlay.
By design, they're trying to make it as easy to simplify to the UI UX of it, make
it so there's not a lot of distraction on there.
They reduce a lot of content off of what you can show.
So you have to be very selective with what you show, but it can start to really chip
away at the value of what the software is doing in some ways.
And there's also just some limitations around what the software can do in iOS and
Android when you're emulating inside the car.
certain treatments they do to mapping, for example.
We have our own UI for how we identify pins and charges on the map with color and
number for plug type and power, but how Android and how iOS might collectively
group pins together throws off our UI a bit and there's really no work around for
it, but it's their way of trying to, again, take what you're offering up as an
app, feed it into the vehicle world in a way that it creates value, but also
doesn't distract.
So there's a lot of people to get a lot of joy out of using CarPlay.
And we've got a lot of our users tell us that they're really happy that we have it.
But there's ways we'd love to refine it more.
But there's just some limitations to it currently.
Frankly, I think that once Apple really steps into the game and starts offering
software for vehicles, I mean, Project Titan aside, and if they're building some
EV or whatever, like that's meh, you know, but if they're going to come through with
what they're talking about for in-vehicle infotainment and software,
frankly, I'm excited to see what that could be.
Because if you are talking about driving EV right now, I mean, Tesla's, they are
the number one when it comes to software UI, UX, and how smooth it operates.
It's just very well built.
And frankly, everyone else is behind that, still just trying to figure it out.
And that's even for vehicles that have Google integration, there are some areas
there where there's just still some needs for improvement.
So I think that's a fundamental piece.
So.
CarPlay and Android Auto are good as a kind of a stop gap, I think, but we'll see
what happens as those two tech titans really start to really get into this
space, you know, time will tell.
And hopefully we get to work with them on it.
So.
Yeah, that's great to hear.
I mean, I know it's kind of one of those easy things that I think it's probably
true for a lot of listeners too, where it's like.
if you're renting a car and you don't know, or you're not familiar with that
brand, having the car play kind of is just like the easy thing to plug it in and just
now you know how the car works.
Or how- It feels familiar, right?
Right, exactly.
Okay, this is not scary.
Right, right, right.
And I think that fundamentally, it kind of goes back to a core value, maybe
unintentionally of the Chargeway app, of just trying to make it something familiar,
something easy, and really to simplify it across car brand.
Because I've used it
when I've kind of played with a couple other different car brands and I don't
really either trust the native routing software or to be honest, sometimes it's
just so slow that I just say whatever and go with something I kind of know and trust
more.
With that, has there been many conversations or can you share if
Chargeway has really been working with any OEMs to like natively help their actual
infotainment routing systems?
Yeah, we've had plenty of those conversations with plenty of OEMs and
we're having more of them again because I think again, rewinding four or five years
when we first came to market with our solution, we met with everybody and that
included, I mean that name of OEM we met with them.
And I think what we discovered quickly then was we were having meetings with
people that had never even thought of this.
They were running EV teams at legacy OEMs and getting their feet under them for what
they needed to build.
But again, the perspective of the automakers is,
This isn't something that we normally solve.
We build the car, these will have big batteries in them.
They'll have a connector on it.
Yes, we need some software, but we can source that.
We can find a software partner that can do that for us, et cetera.
And I think it was an interview done by, I think it was Jim Farley when he was on a
podcast, sometime this past year.
And he commented on that, because he said, look, he's like, we currently have, I
forget how many software vendors that he mentioned, but he said, we have to get...
all of them to line up on the same page now.
And that's not simple.
Like there's a lot that goes into making that happen in the ways that we need to be
thinking about how an EV operates.
And I've appreciated watching the candor from people like him around the challenges
that the legacy OEMs face as it relates to product development and then
manufacturing.
And that's something that, again, five years ago when we met with a lot of folks
saying, hey, here's what we've developed and this is why we think you should be
paying attention.
Many of them said, yeah, we agree,
that this is going to get solved elsewhere.
And here we are half a decade or more later, and it didn't get solved elsewhere.
In fact, we still have issues related to Volkswagen Group having gone through a lot
of turmoil with software.
Even Ford's team has said, yeah, we're going to do stuff internally, but we're
inviting other platforms to be a part of what we're doing.
But then you have other companies like GM, they are all in on using Google.
And that's gonna be, and they've said like, we're gonna do our own stuff in
house too.
You're not gonna have CarPlay anymore.
You're not gonna have Android Auto.
And the response to our conversation we just had, how many people read that news
and on social media were basically saying, are you crazy?
Like, this has to be so perfect, you know?
And it's- Yeah, no, and it's definitely, that alone has been a topic we've talked
about on this episode, that decision.
It just needs to be pretty damn good.
I've seen a couple early reviews saying it is pretty good, but I mean that, like we
just talked about, it's a big crutch for people when they're getting into a new car
and it's just one of those battles and of all the things that you have to
essentially rebuild and think about and put the investment resources in when going
to a fully electric platform that kind of makes the question is like, is that the
biggest priority right now?
Oh yeah.
And how often do we still see people on owners groups that'll put up an email they
got from
you know, the brand of vehicle they own will say, like, you're due for an oil
change, or they'll even say it inside the car, you know?
And they're just kind of like, really?
You know?
And it's just, I think in fairness, we're asking a very large global industry to
think differently about the product they've built for the last century.
and it's a lot to unpack.
Aside from the skin and bones of the cars that they built, and that's where, again,
the legacy auto brands, they still shine.
You could put a brand new Audi or Ford or anything next to some of the newcomers,
and you can see that, well, these legacy brands, boy, they know how to put together
a car outside and inside.
And it's...
It finishes great materials.
Oftentimes are so spot on.
But it's that's just skin deep.
If you go underneath battery software, access livability is what I can always
refer to it as.
Yeah, there's just I mean, it's as funny as it is, like even my wife doesn't want
to for things where we have two cars of all things.
One is a Tesla Model Y, which is kind of our road tripper daily car.
And then the other car is a 1987 Land Rover Defender 90, which is about as
complete opposite.
Yeah, I was gonna say, go Sir.
As you can get.
Woohoo.
Yeah, the plan is to make that electric eventually, but it's living in central
Oregon, it's a great adventure vehicle, and I love the thing for completely
different reasons.
But the problem is like a car like that has infinitely more character than I don't
care what brand you wanna throw at it of its modern equivalent, because they've all
more or less gone to electric, steering, all these other things that kind of
And it's Land Rover.
That's kind of the beauty of it is you're happy if it starts and even happier if
there's not like a mouse or something in the car or any other kind of pleasant.
I mean, it gives a character.
All the old cliches around like, yeah, you love it if it runs kind of thing.
Right, oh yeah, no.
And that's also the ironic beauty of it.
Like I opened it the other day just to look underneath and check a couple of
things.
And I can't think of anything I have seen.
recently, not even car wise, just like so many like products or appliances that have
so few wires.
There is like, essentially, it goes from the battery to the lights, and then a
couple of check engine lights, and then the rest is all hardware and manual, which
is kind of a beauty, beautiful kind of simplicity to it.
But that's going to down a whole different rabbit hole.
There's an analog.
I mean, there's a totally.
Yeah.
And that's like a car that
really has not many features.
It doesn't even have a tachometer or even a, it has a CB radio that someone
installed, but it doesn't have a regular radio.
And then you look at, yeah, you're right.
Like some of the Audi, I mean, pretty much any of the German brands.
Amazing on the outside, great styling.
Get in the seats, feel amazing.
My mother actually is looking to replace her decade old Mercedes and she's kind of
been going back and forth because the one thing she wants is it to be electric.
But even then it's like she starts playing with these other things and she gets kind
of either overwhelmed or you're right.
It's like the livability of it just kind of falls apart.
And I think this kind of goes what I was trying to say was my wife one of her big
things now is because they tell us like if she buys another car, like the dog mode
feature is she won't consider a car because we have dogs because it has that
kind of silly thing.
But any modern electric EV should really be able to do it.
And it's that livability thing that you
the companies that if you want just a car to get you from point A to point B, and
that's what a lot of people say they want.
That's sure.
That's pretty easy.
But when you start kind of like talking to people about how they use the car or
what's really important to them, that's when you start, there's that kind of idea.
Like, Oh, just cause this car company can build something that has better panel gaps
or something else like that.
it really falls apart in why some of these startups have kind of transcended from
being startups and are now very large, successful, new automotive companies.
Well, we're kind of just walking around the topic, but I mean, we're referencing
Tesla in most ways.
And I think, you know, and Rivian is an example.
There's a lot of people that, that came out of the Tesla alumni group that joined
companies like Rivian that have taken a lot of learnings out of.
some of it, you know, cutting their teeth on it.
That's copy great artists deal kind of, which is fine.
And it works for them.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I mean, even the little stuff, like you got dog mode inside the
Tesla and you got like the little, the little Sasquatch dude inside of Rivian you
know what I mean?
But, but those little things that add a level of, you know, comfort and some, just
like cuteness is not everybody wants to, we've seen movies about the future where
it's like these heads up displays and screens that have just charts and numbers
and lines and graphs and
And for some reason, everybody on the ship knows how to use it.
You know, and I'm looking back going, I gotta be honest, I don't think that's
like- That seems like a step back.
Well, it's just like, yeah, I think most people are gonna be like, you guys have a
button that says EZ on it?
Because back in like forever ago, there was a company called Staples that did
that.
And I loved it, you know?
I mean, and it's a gag, but that's how people think.
And I think that the in-vehicle experience, I mean, I've driven plenty of
other EVs aside.
I mean, my wife and I,
She has a Model Y, I have a Model 3, but prior to that we had a Bolt, we had both
generations of Chevy Volt, we had a Spark EV, and I've driven plenty of other
vehicles, and I have to say there is something to the minimalism approach that
Tesla has used.
Now on one hand, it's great for manufacturing because it's like 75 less
buttons, you know?
It's just, it's like, eh, it's cheaper to build a car that way.
But at the same time,
the to your point about how they can make changes and add features that are unique
leveraging software that way is really amazing.
And I think that they've really shown how they can do that in a very thoughtful way.
Um, but these other companies that again, legacy brands, especially they have to
figure out where software will live in their world as a core competency.
But I hear that conversation.
And then on the other side, the next day I hear, and now we have blank energy as part
of our home energy, something I'm going, okay, I get it.
It's important to figure out how to compete.
But at some point, I mean, I'm very exhausted with the press releases.
Let's say that.
I don't wanna see it.
That's pretty blately.
Yeah.
I mean, it's how often can you read something and if you're in the new, if
you're in the know, you look at it and go, no, that's fluff.
Yeah.
Well, and it's no meat on that bone.
It kind of goes back to the conversation we were also having earlier, uh, about an
organization around like focusing on all sorts of different things instead of
staying in that kind of core area.
And I, I am the biggest fan.
I think the concept of vehicle degrade is really fascinating.
I think there's a lot of potential, but I do not think they have thought that one
through as far as how many questions that generates.
And it gets a lot of people interested in the technology, but unfortunately, uh,
it falls apart real quickly when they find out they have to upgrade their panel just
to do it.
And that's $6,000 plus another $10,000 to put in another gateway and all these other
things they have to do.
Obviously if you've got a really brand new home and the panels wide open, yeah, it
should be, then it's only a couple thousand dollars.
But it's not- But it's still thousands of dollars.
Yeah, exactly.
And it's not like, I think everyone sees like, oh, I just plug it in and it just
works.
And unfortunately- Well, that's what the Super Bowl ad.
Yeah, a few years ago.
And the reference you just made is exactly what I saw in an owner's group.
Someone had reserved a particular truck that promised that they could charge your
home for keep your house powered on for a week or more.
And they reserved the truck and then they called their electrician and the
electrician said, what are you doing?
And he's this is a guy in this.
He had a whole paragraph, multi-paragraph response, but it wasn't even about the
money.
It was about the fact that he felt duped because by the time he got done talking to
his electrician, the guy walked him through it and said,
Yeah, this is going to probably end up costing about 20,000 bucks to fully
upgrade everything and get all the equipment and do it to do what you want.
And that to me is, is again, it's just the we have to look like we're competing.
So let's say something.
And then, oh, we didn't really know what we were talking about.
But also in fairness, let's be honest, like Tesla, they weren't offering Vita X
either.
They, they, they're just like buy more batteries from us.
Yeah.
It's only really within the announcement of the cyber truck within the past month
that they're like, okay, now we're going to try doing this.
Well, they, they signed themselves up for that with every deal they made for access
to the supercharger network and vehicles and for sure.
Yeah.
But I grew the a thousand percent on the Vita X promise.
And we've been asked this by many partners that we work with is, you know, what's the
role you think you can play in, in the programs we have related to manage
charging and Vita X, et cetera.
And I,
And we've got some things that we're working on for how we can slowly roll into
those conversations.
But I've said to many people, I think the promise of that, like you said very well,
is people are not thinking about the human element there.
What are we actually asking people to do?
We're effectively saying to them, if you're a homeowner, when you plug your
vehicle in, we will siphon fuel out of your car at some point that you paid for.
and we have to then offer them some kind of actual value back.
And right now the programs that are pilots around this are, if you sign up today,
we'll give you a hundred bucks.
And if you keep doing this at the right time, we'll give you another 25.
I think that for early adopters that want to, just cause they like to nerd out on
the engineering and the tech, I think they might dive in.
Average folks are going to say real quick timeout.
If I pay hell no.
Yeah.
If I paid X amount of dollars for this fuel, you better be giving me a pretty
good premium to suck it back out of my car.
You know, and it's, it's just invasive.
And everybody that I've talked to inside of the energy sector that are a lot of
them that are leading these projects, there is a need to create a better
appreciation around.
This is not a thermostat.
This is not a fridge.
This is someone's car.
It's their, it's their
You can't just tap into that like it's a thermostat.
It's a different, you are engaging with someone that someone and something about
their ownership experience that's very different than what you might be thinking.
So yeah, I agree with you 100% is there's a lot more that needs to be discussed
around this before.
We have all these stationary storage things waiting for us to tap into.
It's like, no, there are people that own cars that you're hoping they will sign up
for what you're doing.
And then there's that whole thing called software that a lot of these OEMs are
struggling with that is the only way that this is all gonna work.
Right, yeah.
Yeah, I'm cautiously optimistic, but I mean, I think there's plenty of reasons
you could say why Tesla actually wasn't doing it.
But I always did think the argument that at least they were trying to make, or at
least Elon was specifically about the ideas like, well, if you're, and kind of
growing up somewhere where maybe once a year, maybe twice a year, if it's a bad
year,
Uh, we might lose power for like a couple of days.
And so the argument was like, well, if you're out of power and it's plugged in
your car and you have to go to the store, that's great for you, but the rest of your
family now is out of dark.
Yeah.
And I mean, some power is better than no power, I guess, but like, you and I kind
of agree with that.
I was like, yeah, that kind of kind of automatically, uh, now that you can even
do that with the cyber truck as a backup thing, I would still.
I mean, now I don't have to buy like 10 or whatever powerwalls, but it's still like,
if you actually consider about this, you still have to buy one.
They're not cheap.
Well, and no, that's that example.
And that's a whole nother thing.
Yeah.
But that's the exact example.
The gentleman that had reserved that it was a 450 lightning.
And that was the exact example he gave.
He said, he said, my daughter is an asthmatic.
And sometimes we've had to rush her.
You know, like we've had incidences where we've had to take her to the hospital.
So what happens if I have to take her to the hospital?
And my electrician said, well,
you unplug your truck and your house turns off.
And he said, how is this a value add to my life again?
I don't get it, you know?
And so, I mean, again, my family, we have solar and home batteries and we have seen
the benefit from that even here in Oregon where we're not exactly a solar haven, but
it really works well.
And we don't have to think about, if I could augment what I've done with my home
batteries by going further with my car,
I would totally say, yeah, that's a cool added feature.
I'd be down to that.
But having it be like the binary of it's either this or that, I think giving
consumers some flexibility on that is going to be important in the long run,
because I don't think people are just going to say, I've plugged in my EV, and
if you want to suck power out of it, you know, hey, have at it.
I just don't see how people are going to sign up for that immediately.
I just don't.
Yeah, and I think this is true about a lot of different things when it comes to EVs
right now.
especially thought this about the whole V2G thing.
Maybe it can be the last thing we say about it, but it reminds me of kind of
like Windows versus Mac in the nineties.
And you obviously would see like those comparison charts, usually by some company
that had a Windows computer they were selling about where it was different and
the functionality of future thing.
And visually that looks good, but it's not like practical for what people are using.
And I think the big part of it too is, and then actually you saw this the same with
iOS versus Android where
Apple's making all the money off their computers and their hardware and it's,
people aren't really buying the hardware.
They're buying the functionality and the software elements.
So X companies can try and compete on like different function sets.
And then you can say, hey, this ABC company has function set that one, two,
three car company doesn't have.
And it's just not a really good sell.
Or I mean, it might work, but it's really just strong long-term, not a very strong
argument.
I just feel like,
And then there's the whole thing about the battery warranty.
How many times do you charge it if you're using it from the hat?
I don't know.
No, so the way I've finally- This goes down a long rabbit hole of- Well, but it's
a big end to your point, the listeners that you have for your podcast and folks
in this space, I think we all need to be very honest to ourselves about what we're
talking about.
And I finally have said to folks in the energy sector that we partner with, I
think there are ways to walk people into the Vita X opportunity.
I think that at the end of the day, what we're talking about is,
you know, V to H, vehicle to home, vehicle to V to L, vehicle to load, vehicle to
grid, you know, V to G, and even V to V, vehicle to vehicle, if you wanted to get
cute with it.
And it's a thing you can do.
But I think that what we finally landed on for how we explain it to people in this
space for how they should be thinking strategically about consumer engagement
is, right now no one has visibility into anything.
Like that's the thing.
If you wanna go all the way to the step of, we wanna control this thing fully.
It's like, okay, well right now you've got nothing.
People aren't listening to you.
They're not paying attention.
They're not giving you information at a minimum You need visibility into where our
EVs located so that at a minimum you can be doing basic homework around What are
you doing to again your the grid around that area?
And then with that visibility you can also get a sense for how many of those vehicles
are actually V to X capable So how many how many assets are there out in the
field?
Then from there the next step after visibility is influence the best you can
ever beg for
is we'd like to influence your behavior somehow.
That means either A, we would like to have you not charge at certain times to help us
manage load, or when you're plugged in, we'd like to maybe, you know, stop your
charge or pull some power off.
But the moment you go from that, you go from influence into actual control.
And the moment you're having control, that means that consumers have to say, I'm
signing up for this, that you can actually control my destiny about how my car is
filled up.
That's a big step.
The value proposition has to be very real.
And after control is fully managed, like it's just automated and that people just
plug in and they don't have to think, you don't have to think it's just great.
And to your point, boy, that's a lot of software.
Like that's a lot of the right things communicating the right way that are also
built off of a value proposition that as our conversation is, I think is showing,
it's built on some pretty shaky ground.
So I think- And it's using infrastructure that's pretty damn old.
There's that I'm still amazed that more utilities aren't offering up after the
experience we had here with our solar and batteries here in Oregon.
I'm thinking if we're, if we're talking about building more power plants, I sort
of got, there should just be a subsidized program for, okay, if your, if your roof
has some decent sun access solar and some home batteries, we've been 60% off grid in
the last two years in Oregon.
That's bunkers.
Yeah, that's crazy.
And it's like, why are we building more power plants?
We could be offsetting so much of this load with like, Hey, you have
It's just solar and some home batteries, and you're good to go.
But then it turns into, well, what if we just use their car?
And I'm just over there going, oh, no.
But I think there's already been so many cool pilot.
I mean, yeah, this is actually what I think is way more fascinating is virtual
power plants.
And obviously, a huge software component to that, but much more impressive as to
what can be done.
And it's actually already working around, especially kind of what you're talking
about, home use
being able when there's either a power outage or the potential for a brownout
using software that's already available in the technology to mitigate that and to
kind of minimize those issues.
And I completely agree with you.
I think there are other people and maybe other interests that have kind of pushed
back on that.
But as far as like a practical, and I think what most people are more likely to
experience first, like the whole concept of having just solar and batteries that
are subsidized by your utility.
I think is much more likely to catch on and be at least financially much more
approachable than the current status of using your car as a big battery to backup
your house.
It's then it turns into who owns the asset, who's managing it, et cetera, et
cetera, you know?
Right.
I just, I'm, the thing of it, it always reminds me of that quote from Jurassic
Park when they're all sitting there having lunch and he's like, your scientists were
so preoccupied wondering if they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
Yes.
You know?
And I've said that jokingly to some colleagues in our industry because we, and
there's a fever pitch around some of this stuff too.
The promise of something.
I mean, we saw it happen with autonomy and that bubble burst.
We saw it happening sort of with charging all of a sudden, a bunch of SPACs and EV
SPACs had happened.
Those kind of fizzled.
Now we're having this, well, what if the energy is controlled a certain way?
And I just look at all these things, I'm thinking, okay, brass tacks.
What is it we need people to engage with us on and how do we need to help them have
and lead a quality life?
And there's an energy aspect to that in a big way that they haven't thought about
before.
So it's getting them to think about it, but then also not asking too much of them.
And I think that the influence piece of if you invite them in and say, this is, this
is your, you choose your own adventure.
If you have a car that has a big battery on it, we'd love to have you involved in
these programs because here's the value it can bring to you.
And also potentially to, you know, other aspects of, you know, your neighborhood or
God knows what I mean, but then you start to walk that line of altruism that most
people kind of go, I'm not saying this, but, uh, no.
And that happens all the time.
So right.
And that's, and I think we've kind of touched on a lot of it.
I mean, if you go to the Chargeway website, obviously a big portion of it is,
talks about utilities.
And obviously you've kind of had that experience and exposure talking with about
this.
Is there anything that you can share that you've done or you're working with
utilities now that is...
kind of what we're talking about or has it been mostly around kind of the, I mean, it
sounds like a large part of this anyways, education, but providing the education
through beacons or the charge way app for X utility, or is it starting to kind of go
beyond that or is it kind of really does?
Well, I think it's still as much as you, me and everyone else that's probably
listening.
We all talk about this all the time.
Again, we're a very small segment of the marketplace and it's just the population.
We have done a lot of work with utilities on helping them figure out where to
position, how to explain the value of their programs.
We hear it very often where maybe it's a level two program or if you sign up for
this level two home charging program, we will give you X rebate.
And what is the hope of that program?
Well, we want you to buy this charger because it's managed.
So we can do some testing around how we can throttle your charge or turn it off or
and so And that's the thing.
It's a little bit of a it's kind of bait and switchy, right?
It's like we'll just do this thing for free and in the fine print it says we are
going to potentially turn off your charger um a friend of a friend of mine in los
angeles, uh, was telling me a story about one of his neighbors who Like they bought
a nest thermostat through a utility program not realizing that
Oh yeah, we will shut your AC off if the grid gets too stressed.
And he was flipping out over it and they were talking about it.
And he said, yeah, but that's what you signed up for.
He's like, no, I thought I was just getting the rebate for a thermostat.
I didn't realize they're going to make my house too hot to be sitting in.
You know, so that, that part of it is what we keep talking to any utility we talk to
is about be very thoughtful around what we're actually asking of people.
Right now they don't think about electricity and energy virtually at all.
We've had very.
simple to use and frankly cheap to access energy for a century that has made our
modern life what it is.
But this new element of you need to understand how electricity works in your
life, whether that's your home or maybe your motor to fuel your mode of
transportation, we have to be very thoughtful around again, what is that
incumbent experience they've had and what are they used to and
We're never going to get there by making them become electrical or mechanical
engineers to understand the value of Why we're pulling X amount of kilowatt hour
off their battery.
It's just not gonna happen So yeah, I mean it's not to go too deep and it's I mean
that that's very spot-on Especially when you start time out of EVs because then you
have so many variables
but you look at how so many different utilities and especially counties and
different cities are really pushing for the electrification of home appliances
versus like natural gas and others.
And even that has such a educational barrier to understand like, well, this is,
I've always used natural gas, good or bad.
And then I think that's facing so many headwinds to then try and throw on the EV
component and how all this works.
And then- You can't get them to switch their oven.
Yeah, exactly.
You're asking them to do that and then back up your house?
Hi, Rad.
This has sounded a little far-fetched.
And there's political ramifications to it.
And the fact that electricity has become politicized is bonkers, but it's where we
are.
And I think that that's a big thing that should be really, again, we should be
paying attention to how did that happen.
And with regard to, again, the conversations we have with utilities, we
have programs where we have worked to help.
position and promote the value of these programs with regard to how does that look
inside of the chargeway beacon?
How can a sales rep at a showroom see value?
And nine times out of 10, it's, hey, if you provide information to our customer,
and this is the utility saying this, we'd love to work with your dealership on how
we can give you some benefits around those programs.
And that's where you have to help create relationships between stakeholders that
haven't really worked together before.
And, um, and, but the automakers are kind of catching wind of, oh, it's a, it's,
it's a holistic process.
So we'll just roll in your level two charging install when you buy the car.
That undermines any level two program from utility at the showroom.
Yeah.
And so there's those challenges.
Um, but I mean, we've got a variety of different things we've touched on.
with utility programs.
One, we have a program we're launching with Austin Energy starting in Q1, Q2 of
this coming year.
Oh, cool, congrats.
It's solely focused on how we can give energy information to drivers in the
Chargeway mobile app, and how is it related to their lifestyle.
Because if they are a homeowner, it's a different type of value proposition than
if they're not.
And what are these programs from a utility like Austin Energy?
And how can we showcase the value of that to each of the users that we have based on
the fact that we're already trying to create a tailored experience for them.
And that's the value they get out of using Chargeway.
So it's about creating a personal, authentic relationship with your customers
as it relates to energy and making sure that the ecosystem you're having them live
within has answers for them.
Because if they have to keep.
jumping out to find solutions, or if they're given information that feels
misleading, as we've discussed and we've seen from various stakeholders, well, then
you just immediately lose trust.
And that's a big part of what we're talking about is building trust with the
public around electrification.
Yeah, I mean, I feel like The last hour already we have.
I mean, there's so many different areas that we've discussed that could easily be
their own podcast episodes and I don't know.
I feel like
I really enjoyed talking with him at because sometimes I feel very optimistic
and I feel reminded about everything that also bothers me.
But at least I know there's someone else that knows and understands these problems.
Well, let's yeah, let's try to keep it optimistic.
So well, that's not to say there's not great things happening.
For sure.
The sales volumes of EVs, the joke, it's all going in the right direction.
Yeah, it's happening.
I think that there's reason to be pragmatic.
around pragmatic.
That's yeah.
Yeah.
And it's just, it's just saying what's happening in this conversation and where
are we seeing sales volumes going to?
We're at 8% now nationally.
California is at like 24% or something like that last quarter.
So things are going in the direction that electrification is, is it ain't going away
for sure.
And I, I think just, uh, I mean, those are great examples and great numbers, but what
I think is so, uh, to be positive and to kind of
reconfirm what we've, we've seen these similar things happen in China.
And there's obviously sometimes been different levers that different
governments and stuff and even public or private companies can pull, but it seems
like everything we've seen, whether it's China or Europe, a lot of these kind of
have been at a logarithmic scale.
And for a long time, everyone in the industry has kind of said, oh, no, it's
not going to happen here.
No, no, that can't.
Yeah, that'll be the thing that happens in Europe.
But I mean, even just in the last, I'd say two years, let alone half year.
Uh, the, and there's been a little bit of a pullback, but I think you're just seeing
that across the auto industry right now in general.
It's not really that much of an EV specific thing, but you're seeing all
those right numbers that we've seen in other markets where it's like, no, this is
going to happen.
Maybe it's going to happen.
Like, okay, crap, this is actually happening.
We are, we've got to get on board whether we've wanted it to or not.
And I think it is obviously a really positive thing.
And so I think where we're seeing everything going is all stuff to be
excited for.
Oh my gosh.
And to be optimistic about it.
Cause I mean, for how far, for how long I've known and kind of followed the stuff
you're doing, it just seems like, like I said earlier, when Chargeway launched,
there was maybe the Model S, the Bolt, the Leaf and a couple.
I mean, we initially introduced the idea.
This would have been what, 2017?
So there was a few more cars on the market.
Yeah, there was more on the, yeah.
You know, but to your point, not a ton.
I mean, it was like maybe the i3.
The Fiat 500E or something.
A lot of them that have come and gone.
Right, yeah, exactly.
And compliance cards that are now in the dustbin of history.
Yeah, collector's cards somewhere, I guess.
But for sure.
But I think I also want to be respectful of your time because I realize we're kind
of coming up almost an hour here.
We've talked about where the apps come, where it's going, the things that we're
excited about.
Can you share just a few things that if you haven't already about?
since you started Chargeway, things that have kind of surprised you or you weren't
expecting kind of see with where you had started and where you might see either the
pull from the market or just kind of the feedback from users of the app.
I think one of the things that surprised me over the last five years is I frankly
anticipated that the third party charging networks would have a better understanding
of the role that they were going to play in the ownership experience.
Um, and they would be concerned about their brands looking like they don't care
about the driving and fueling experience.
But over time, I, you know, it just became more obvious that because of the business
models that exist within EV charging and how grants are issued and how revenue is
made and things like that, it just became so obvious that it was in some cases,
unfortunately, not about the driver.
And it was far more so about the opportunity to grow the business.
and kind of, you know, kind of pass the buck over to whoever was buying your
services to say, now it's your problem to make sure that the charger is okay and
that drivers are satisfied.
But at face value, the way that those programs were being sold, whether it was
to a policymaker, a city, I mean, a municipality, or even a small business, it
always was with the promise of, no, our charges are on all the time and it's on
our app and you're on our network now and it's gonna be so great for you.
And I think that
that in the long term, like in the last five years, especially we've seen the
damage it's done.
We've seen the articles all the time about people saying you can't rely on these
things.
And it's unfortunate.
And I had far more optimism around that for networks.
And frankly, Ford and other brands waving the white flag saying, I do see it as that
a waving of the white flag saying, we're switching to the Tesla connector.
We're just going to basically say we'd love to tap into what you guys got because
you take care of it and it works.
to me that sent a very, very loud signal to third party networks of you either step
this up or the valuation of your companies are just gonna go, and so they're gonna
have to do a better job.
So I would say that it surprised me how that didn't improve as I thought it would.
Interesting.
And it's unfortunate.
But I think within that, what we tried to do within the Chargeway platform,
was to provide as much transparency as we could to people.
So again, in the station finding element of Chargeway, again, if you click on a
pin, you can see the details of it.
We always had customer support information that you could contact for the network.
And we always tried to tell you, it's this network that's backing that station.
If it was white labeled and had branding from gosh, who knows what all over it, we
would still say, if you got a problem, this is who you call.
And if you want to leave a review, you can, but if you want to report a problem,
you hit one button in the charge way up on a station, it auto populates the station
information in the end to the body of the email.
It sends it directly to the customer support team from that network.
All you got to do is add your notes and hit send.
So this is, these are ways that we've always been trying to help drivers have a
voice in this space.
And
And obviously there's other, there's other ways they can go about doing it on social
media and others, but that's something that I think has definitely made an impact
on kind of adding a level of honesty from some, you know, some players that needed
to improve upon things.
Um, but yeah, we'll see how that plays out.
But I think we've always looked at it and said, if we can showcase where you can go
and what your expectation and experience of what your experience will be.
Then it's on the, it's on the companies to live up to that on behalf of the driver.
And I think we're going to see that some of those.
uh, both auto brands and networks are going to survive better than others.
And, you know, I, I don't know.
I mean, again, this, there's a lot of, you know, these on the market now, I mean,
rewind five years and we've quintupled how many are on the market.
I would, I'd be willing to bet.
And we've also quintupled the amount of networks out there.
Unfortunately.
And fortunately, yes, that is true.
That those have also increased going to your point about reliability around those.
I think, uh, and what is fascinating, uh, with.
going back to that conversation we had earlier about the expectation of brands
and what you know, I'm like, Oh, I've always bought brand X.
So I'm just going to buy brand X's EV.
And there might still be some areas where they excel in, but it's very clear that
you're getting new or traditional carton, not only just new startups and new players
in the space, but especially brands that have kind of been, I think.
traditionally viewed as maybe like a lower tier brand, but they've seen
electrification as kind of their opportunity to really change that and get
a hold of that.
And of course, probably the biggest one people think of are the key and Hyundai,
where they were kind of lower cost competitive vehicles that were kind of
didn't offer a lot around traditional amenities.
And they were already kind of in the process of changing that expectation or
impression.
and then really just latched on to electrification and have now kind of
leapfrogged a lot of others in the space.
So I think it's still very early days between not just the automakers and the
startups and then the charging infrastructure, but there's still so much
that, I mean, it's crazy how much has changed since the last time we had you on
the podcast, so I can't wait, and hopefully it'll be sooner than the last
time that we get to talk with you soon about some of these changes and what we're
seeing in the space.
But...
One kind of final question I like to ask people, I think we've also touched on a
little bit, but just to kind of get it out there.
One question we ask everyone is, in your experience, to you, what needs to either
be done by government or maybe private, what could be done really between any of
these that would have the biggest impact, you think, in moving EV adoption and EV
charging infrastructure forward?
That's a big question.
I will say I still, you know, I'm on the broken record on it.
But now that we're hearing the conversation from dealership saying, you
know, we've got all these cars stacking up on our showroom lots and we're not happy
about it and people are wanting these things.
The moment I saw that 4000 auto dealers had written a letter to the Biden
administration saying we need you to pause on your EV mandates and they are very
adamant about this.
I immediately just asked the question that I asked, you know, years ago when we
launched Chargeway, which is why would anybody go to a dealership to buy a car
that runs on electricity as a fuel if they don't know anything about electricity as a
fuel?
Why would they do that?
Right.
They don't know what they don't know.
And we've seen countless campaigns around EVs are here and let's get more butts in
seats and oh gosh, there's Super Bowl ads that you just can't you couldn't miss an
EV ad a few years ago, right?
And that's all it was.
And I just kept watching that thinking.
Yep.
And if you go out and go to any bar or any restaurant tonight in any town, you're in
America and say, if every gas station closed tomorrow, how would you use your
car?
Because everyone would say, I couldn't.
But if we, if we were doing it the right way with messaging, so we're talking about
from the federal government or wherever, if we were doing it right with messaging,
the right response from the public because if they had the right exposure to the
information correctly, they'd say, well, it wouldn't really matter.
I guess I could just drive an electric car.
Because right now people equate cars to gasoline and the reason why we have brands
and again This is Ford and other brands that have said we've got some vehicles
that are starting to stack up here they have an uphill battle because the type of
customer that they've cultivated for the last 20 years is not your ideal EV buyer
and Right, that's just that's a part of the game and they are trying to pivot and
it's not the easiest thing in the world I think combine that with the fact that
you have a lack of understanding around what they can trust and what they even
know about there's walk down the street every listeners podcast I invited this
next time your holiday party whenever you hear this ask everybody in the room that
is not related to the industry if you're an electric fuel for your car you know
about it or just say if every gas station closed tomorrow how would you drive your
car and chances are they'd all say the same thing which is I guess I couldn't
drive a car and that right there speaks to the problem we have zero visibility to the
public.
around that they have a fuel choice.
And I think my hair is gonna get grayer over time because I keep beating this
drum.
And I don't know why it's not more obvious to everybody.
I mean, you can make the right ecosystem like Tesla has, but man, you've got to
control it all.
And they've done it really well.
And we just don't have that luxury to offer to the public from every product
line.
So that would be my hope is we can get more honest to ourselves around the fact
that buying a car has always meant two products, cars and gas.
and we've removed gas.
And so we have to talk about electricity as a trusted fuel source and not get over
our skis and start asking Vita X questions about, hey, can we tap into your car and
borrow some kilowatt hours?
Because people are very far away from having that conversation.
I think that is a great place to end it on for a couple of reasons.
One, clearly the battery in my camera has died.
But two, I think that is such a great summary of what the challenges that the
industry is facing
I think once again, what you and Chargedway have done such a good job of
hoping to like get people at least a line around to ask the right question and then
provide a really clear and concise answer to.
So I just want to say thank you again so much for being back on that and looking
forward to talking again with you soon.
Definitely.
Well, again, thanks for the invite and always enjoy chatting with you.