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Good morning, Great Connections listeners
and welcome to 2024.

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I'm really excited to kick off this year's
first episode with Matt Teske.

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He's the founder of Chargeway.

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And coincidentally for long-term
listeners, you may know Matt was actually

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in the first episode of Great Connections
we've recorded.

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So it's really an honor to have him on
again, and especially to talk with him

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about the new version of Chargeway.

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They're officially calling it 2.0 of the
app.

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But we go through some of the new
functionality and how it makes it a lot

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easier for even existing users of EVs that
want to road trip or just kind of learn

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more about charging around them to really
explore and use a lot more functionality.

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In addition, I think this is a great
episode for anyone who might be new to

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charging or road tripping EVs and have
been kind of curious what other options

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are out there to really try and make it as
hassle-free as possible and Chargeway has

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always been a great example of.

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what they're doing to really try and
streamline the process.

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And it's a really fascinating company
because they're making really big inroads,

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but they're also a very small and agile
team.

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We talked to them about the new version
along with some of the current other

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things that Chargeway does around even
offering in dealership beacons and other

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educational material that even current
users might not be aware of.

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And if you're in the auto OEM industry, I
definitely recommend.

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reaching out to Chargeway to look at these
other ways to maybe educate your current

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staff.

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I think after we really talk about the new
and kind of fascinating parts of

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Chargeway, we also got to talk just about
the larger EV charging ecosystem right now

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and some of the pros and cons of what
we're seeing.

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For those of you who are interested in
either trying out, learning more, or even

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downloading the Chargeway app, you can
find all that information in today's show

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notes.

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So with that, I just want to say welcome
again to 2024 and please enjoy this

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episode with Matt Teske of Chargeway.

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Enjoy.

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Thank you for having me chase.

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Good to see you again.

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Yeah.

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Just in case people aren't familiar with
you or Chargeway or haven't heard the

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previous episodes, can you just give a
real quick overview of what your team is

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doing and how you're making a huge impact
in the EV space today?

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Definitely.

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Yeah.

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Chargeway for those who aren't familiar
with what we do.

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Chargeway is a software platform and
mobile app.

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And we simplify EV charging and how to
understand how EV charging works.

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And we focus on that by allowing you to
choose your EV inside of our mobile app,

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for example, and then we do all the
thinking for you.

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And then our UI is unique, our user
interface, and that it uses colors for

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plug types and simple numbers for power
levels so that when you look at the map,

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you know, that you can go to green
stations because your vehicle has a green

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plug.

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And then you will know the maximum charge
level of your vehicle is, let's say a

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level six, and then you'll see fives and
sixes and sevens on the map.

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You can use all those, you can use the
seven, but you'd only, you'd max out at

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six because of your car.

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It's a way to just super simplify how to
understand how charging works by sake of

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can you connect and then how long will
your charge take?

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So we've been, we initially introduced the
idea about, wow, six years ago now, it was

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originally when we just, I walked around
with a laptop at a conference and said,

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here's an idea.

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And it turned into a software platform and
mobile app.

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And just recently we launched version 2.0
of our software for the mobile app.

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And

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huge response has been great, because it's
not only a station finder, it's also a

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trip planner.

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And it's got a lot of other features that
I'm sure we can dive into.

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But our goal and mission is to just take
all that engineering that is difficult to

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navigate with EV charging and do a lot of
thinking for folks.

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That's really what we want to accomplish.

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So yeah, I think what's so great about
your approach in the platform is, I think

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a lot of people listening, they're going
to know the difference between a kilowatt,

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a kilowatt hour, the

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difference between a LFP and an NMC
battery chemistry, all these different

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things that I know our listeners kind of
nerd out and really enjoying what we like.

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But at the end of the day, it's as much as
we like to think that the world revolves

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around us, we're a small group of the
small section that is the automotive

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industry.

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And for most people, it's just one part
of, that they don't even think about of

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their daily lives.

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And that's what I love about what you're
doing and what you're so passionate about

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is to really simplify this.

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I've kind of even jokingly said, I don't
know if I ever tell you this, but I've

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kind of jokingly said it's like, it's the
grandma EV app.

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Like you just, it's so simple where you
can give it to, it makes, there's a lot of

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people that love EVs because of all the
technology, but I do know quite a few

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people that kind of like the simple
traditional car because, uh, right or

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wrong through, uh, maybe bad marketing or
just, uh, lack of exposure from other

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companies, it's kind of made EVs seem
like, okay, I'm buying a new appliance or

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I've got to know all these things.

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And what your software does on the app.

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And I believe now with some of the
integrations to even kind of show up in

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the car infotainment, it really does bring
it down to be like, it removes all the

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hassle and really figure it does all the
hard work for you because.

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Um, I think one of the other things too,
is I love taking road trips in my AV.

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And I'm kind of a big enough nerd to
actually enjoy, okay, if I do this, I'll

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be slightly more efficient if I avoid this
mountain pass.

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And it's, there is kind of, I've talked to
a few other people in the

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actually, John McElroy from auto line out
Detroit even said this.

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He's like, you know, one of the things
that I find intriguing about EVs is it's

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kind of like the Western frontier.

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It's like, you're actually having to
figure out all this stuff now that we've

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kind of taken for granted for the last 50
years.

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And he's right, but it shouldn't be that
way for everyone.

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If you want to see people actually, uh, be
able to have an EV as their only car.

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So I think it's really exciting to have
you on.

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a big part of the kind of the reason
you're on today is with the second version

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launch of Chargeway that recently
happened.

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So I think it would be great just to kind
of, as you've already kind of said, the

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history just kind of announced some of
these big changes and what's really kicked

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off 2.0 of Chargeway, Matt.

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Yeah, well, the focus out of building the
new version of the app and the software

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was really it was born out of learning and
talking to drivers as well as utilities,

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auto dealers, other stakeholders about

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what do they need and how do we have a
collective conversation that can be an

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easy conversation for everybody?

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And so what we wanted to focus on with
version 2.0 of the app was how do we take

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features that people enjoy about what we
did in the first version of the app, but

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make it even all the more so integrated
and automated?

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And as an example, we often talk about how
can we educate people on power.

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And we see tactics all the time of,

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let's call this hyper, let's call this
ultra, let's call this super, let's call

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this rapid, let's whatever.

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And it doesn't help anybody understand it,
it just, it's marketing, right?

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And so we have our level system, levels
one through seven, it clearly denotes that

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there's differences and you can see that
visual on the map.

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But we took it a step further in the
original app, we had a charge time

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estimator, you could choose a power level,
set your battery level and get an

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estimated charge time based on the power
level and based on what your car could do.

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This was a separate feature before from
the station map.

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We basically just integrated that feature
into the station map itself.

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So now we have a dedicated vehicle detail
screen where you can adjust your battery

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range and then everything that happens on
the map is then dynamic to your vehicle

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settings.

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So you can then click on power levels all
throughout the map and it will give you an

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estimated charge time based on your
vehicle's capabilities, the station's

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capabilities, taking into account charging
curve, all those little things that we

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know are happening in the background but
we serve up what people want to know,

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which is

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If I'm driving this car and I pull up at
that station with X percent left, how long

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do I gotta wait?

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I mean, that's what average people want to
know.

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And so we're focused on having a different
conversation than most people in the

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industry.

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Yeah.

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I think, uh, I mean, even before we
started recording, you kind of mentioned

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the experience you recently had in an auto
show where these people were looking at a

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one brand of car, cause that's what they
knew.

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And

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They're like, okay, this will take so
long.

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It'll be two charges.

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And then you kind of had to be realistic
when it's like, well, have you looked at

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this other brand where it essentially
makes it one stop and it's a much shorter

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stop?

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And I think that's what really helps.

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Um, I mean, I'll even say I'm a pretty big
visual learner.

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And I think your UI has done a really good
job of solving a lot of the issues.

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I think there's other apps out there.

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Obviously there's the plug shares of the
world that'll rate the charger.

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Um, but your technology kind of

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goes a little bit beyond that where it
even has the route planning functionality.

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But I think as anyone who's listening to
this has probably unfortunately seen or

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experienced, uh, you pull up, let's say it
electrify America.

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I can't remember if it's the hyper, the
fast, the light speed charger, whatever

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the 350 kilowatt one is.

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And there's a Chevy bolt there and no
offense to Chevy bolt drivers, but those

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things top out like 60 kilowatts.

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And I have seen it myself.

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You're being generous.

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Yeah.

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And there are, I know plenty of horror
stories where someone comes like, no, I

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plug here because my, it charges faster.

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And it's like, well, unfortunately that's
not exactly true.

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They hear language like hyper or something
and they hear that's the faster one.

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So if they don't know what they don't
know, they just grab it thinking it'll be

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faster, not having any clue.

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And so one of the things we actually built
into the new trip planner for Chargeway,

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the updated version of it, is depending on
the vehicle you're driving, once we route

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you to stations and suggest your stops,

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if there are multiple power levels at that
location, we will suggest the optimized

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power level for your vehicle to optimize
throughput at that station.

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Because that way it's not about having a
discussion about hyper versus 150 or 350

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kilowatt or what have you.

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You just go, look, if there was a gigantic
green seven and a gigantic green six on

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these chargers, and this thing is telling
me go to the six because my car is only

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capable of charging up to level four, it
helps quickly educate on, oh, it doesn't

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matter if I use six or seven.

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It's the same Phillips speed.

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It gets away from the, the fluffy
marketing of just saying something to say

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something to make it sound great and
actually educates people.

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And that's the one thing we really focused
on with the version two app was to say,

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how do we make this truly customized to
each user, but also make it really smart.

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And I will say, I mean, Chargeway now, in
my opinion, it is the most intuitive and,

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and intelligent app you can use for EV
charging.

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because we are doing so much of the math
behind the scenes for you to make it

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simple.

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And I think that was one of the best
compliments we received from someone, as

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they said, it seems, just looking at it,
seems so easy and so simple, but because I

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know how much complicated technology and
engineering is, and math is going on, that

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means you were able to make it this simple
because you understand the engineering.

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And I said, yeah, that's a very good
compliment.

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I appreciate that.

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So, I mean, and this was coming from
someone who's an early adopter who said,

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you know, I'm skeptical of everything that
doesn't give me

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at all the data right up front.

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But you guys are managing it really well.

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So I think we'll have more and more of
those moments now that we have, as far as

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I'm concerned, was just a more elegant
modern interface in the product.

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And it's just really well polished.

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And so far the feedback has been
phenomenal.

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Yeah, that's great to hear.

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And I mean, I've even seen some of the
feedback just randomly on Twitter and

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other places where people have been kind
of leaving those responses that they've

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been happy with this new software update.

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But I think while

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saying it's 2.0 is a big step and there's
obviously a lot going on in the back end.

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There's it's been a fascinating just to me
as someone who's going to follow

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Charredway for so long to see all of the
additions that your company has added.

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Because obviously it started as an app and
then it was like, okay.

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And when it started as an app, there were
far fewer cars.

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So it's like, okay, you've got the Tesla
UI and then there's like two other cars

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00:11:41,707 --> 00:11:42,968
that you have to figure this out for.

221
00:11:42,968 --> 00:11:44,929
So this helps us to other cars.

222
00:11:45,598 --> 00:11:48,299
But obviously that's drastically changed.

223
00:11:48,340 --> 00:11:51,462
And even as a Tesla driver, it's kind of
fun to use and play around with it to just

224
00:11:51,462 --> 00:11:54,944
look at other options when you're, believe
it or not, in areas where there aren't as

225
00:11:54,944 --> 00:11:56,445
many superchargers.

226
00:11:57,006 --> 00:12:02,549
Having said that now, we look at where
Chargeway started, where it's going.

227
00:12:02,750 --> 00:12:08,053
I think it'd be really interesting to talk
with you about the beacons and all these

228
00:12:08,053 --> 00:12:12,656
other kinds of things that you guys are
now doing that are actually more or less

229
00:12:12,656 --> 00:12:14,717
using that software you built for the app,

230
00:12:15,338 --> 00:12:20,300
a whole the other side of kind of the
education and getting the awareness of how

231
00:12:20,300 --> 00:12:22,941
to make charging much easier for people.

232
00:12:22,961 --> 00:12:26,943
Oh yeah, that's the big thing that we were
focused on with again, the beacon, the

233
00:12:26,943 --> 00:12:31,485
charge weight beacon as we call it is a
retail kiosk that uses the exact same

234
00:12:31,485 --> 00:12:33,046
software as the mobile app.

235
00:12:33,046 --> 00:12:38,608
And the intent was to say, let's design a
way to explain and visualize what is a

236
00:12:38,608 --> 00:12:41,802
very chaotic landscape for understanding
how to navigate charging.

237
00:12:41,802 --> 00:12:44,743
but make it consistent through every touch
point someone is gonna have through their

238
00:12:44,743 --> 00:12:47,865
customer journey, whether that's
researching online and they're at a

239
00:12:47,865 --> 00:12:50,166
website, we can put it in a website.

240
00:12:50,166 --> 00:12:54,328
If they go to a showroom for a car that
they were interested in buying, they have

241
00:12:54,328 --> 00:12:55,189
it in the showroom.

242
00:12:55,189 --> 00:12:57,390
And then they find out they can download
it to their pocket.

243
00:12:58,030 --> 00:13:02,753
The repetition of simple consistency, with
simple consistency is very important in

244
00:13:02,753 --> 00:13:04,754
retail marketing and retail products.

245
00:13:04,814 --> 00:13:10,237
And that's what we've sought to create in
an agnostic and holistic fashion.

246
00:13:10,237 --> 00:13:10,890
So,

247
00:13:10,890 --> 00:13:13,151
People sometimes ask, like, what's the one
liner of charge?

248
00:13:13,151 --> 00:13:16,553
I'm like, well, it's the branding of
electricity as a fuel.

249
00:13:16,553 --> 00:13:17,354
That's what it is.

250
00:13:17,354 --> 00:13:22,137
It's a packaged way to visualize all the
options you need to know how to navigate.

251
00:13:22,137 --> 00:13:22,870
And then it's...

252
00:13:22,870 --> 00:13:27,191
tailored because it's software to the
automaker that you want to look at to the

253
00:13:27,191 --> 00:13:30,152
dealership and the brands that they sell
and then inevitably to the car that you

254
00:13:30,152 --> 00:13:31,012
buy.

255
00:13:31,272 --> 00:13:35,393
Again, it's it is designed with a lot of
intelligence behind the scenes.

256
00:13:35,393 --> 00:13:39,114
And the beacon is an example was just one
way to address a big problem, which is

257
00:13:39,114 --> 00:13:40,014
dealers.

258
00:13:40,075 --> 00:13:43,315
They don't they don't ever have to explain
fuel when they're selling a gas car.

259
00:13:43,456 --> 00:13:45,796
They just say go buy it and go to the gas
station.

260
00:13:45,796 --> 00:13:46,236
You're fine.

261
00:13:46,236 --> 00:13:47,777
And that's how most people shop.

262
00:13:47,777 --> 00:13:50,457
So to your point about that example, that
one couple we talked to.

263
00:13:50,546 --> 00:13:53,166
they had a brand of vehicle they've always
bought.

264
00:13:53,207 --> 00:13:57,608
And so when they think we need to buy a
new car, this brand we've always owned has

265
00:13:57,608 --> 00:13:59,089
an electric version now.

266
00:13:59,089 --> 00:14:02,390
Well, that's of course the one we're gonna
buy because we trust that brand.

267
00:14:02,390 --> 00:14:06,312
They're not thinking even as a consumer, I
have to shop thinking about energy

268
00:14:06,312 --> 00:14:08,933
efficiency of the battery pack based on
the range.

269
00:14:08,933 --> 00:14:11,034
What is the charging capability?

270
00:14:11,034 --> 00:14:14,776
And some of this stuff will even out over
time, but it's not gonna happen overnight.

271
00:14:14,776 --> 00:14:19,697
And to quote Gabe Klein from the joint
office for DOT and DOE,

272
00:14:20,430 --> 00:14:22,110
He's on a podcast that they did
internally.

273
00:14:22,110 --> 00:14:24,911
He said, adapters are going to be a part
of EV ownership for the foreseeable

274
00:14:24,911 --> 00:14:25,772
future.

275
00:14:26,052 --> 00:14:30,473
And so this element of you have to know
you can connect to fill up.

276
00:14:30,473 --> 00:14:32,454
And then once you've connected, how long
do you have to wait?

277
00:14:32,454 --> 00:14:36,196
These are fundamental questions that
average people need answered quickly.

278
00:14:36,196 --> 00:14:39,357
Whereas early adopters, they'll dig all
the way down in the weeds and find the

279
00:14:39,357 --> 00:14:41,217
answers like you or me might.

280
00:14:41,217 --> 00:14:41,758
But

281
00:14:41,758 --> 00:14:44,538
Yeah, face value, if we want to grow the
EV market and make people feel happy and

282
00:14:44,538 --> 00:14:46,859
comfortable, we have to think differently
about how we communicate.

283
00:14:46,859 --> 00:14:50,220
And the beacon at the dealers is just one
way to help solve that problem in the

284
00:14:50,220 --> 00:14:51,620
journey someone will be on.

285
00:14:52,661 --> 00:14:54,541
I think that summarizes it beautifully.

286
00:14:54,541 --> 00:14:57,742
And you're totally right around making it
easier for people because this really

287
00:14:57,742 --> 00:15:01,283
actually isn't a new thing for automotive.

288
00:15:01,283 --> 00:15:04,344
There's always been kind of like,
obviously the automotive nerds who want to

289
00:15:04,344 --> 00:15:08,105
look into the specs like, oh yeah, if I
get the turbocharger for this, or if I get

290
00:15:08,105 --> 00:15:11,105
the inline six versus the V4, there's
clear.

291
00:15:11,490 --> 00:15:14,611
things that 90% of people do not care
about.

292
00:15:14,611 --> 00:15:15,571
But there's always been that option.

293
00:15:15,571 --> 00:15:18,032
The motor trend readers that are like, oh
my gosh, the displacement on this thing is

294
00:15:18,032 --> 00:15:19,013
crazy.

295
00:15:19,013 --> 00:15:21,754
It's over 10 years, it's gone up by 0.1
liters.

296
00:15:21,754 --> 00:15:23,195
Wow, there's three more horsepower.

297
00:15:23,195 --> 00:15:23,795
Yeah, exactly.

298
00:15:23,795 --> 00:15:26,056
I mean, color it however you want.

299
00:15:26,056 --> 00:15:30,678
It's still being a nerd in a specific
knowledge base.

300
00:15:30,758 --> 00:15:33,539
And I think that's definitely true with
EVs.

301
00:15:33,539 --> 00:15:38,501
And I think it's great to see that, how
that's grown because...

302
00:15:39,098 --> 00:15:42,179
Uh, we've had a couple of the people on
the podcast so far, and I've talked to

303
00:15:42,179 --> 00:15:45,620
them where now you have the hot rotting
community that's doing the same thing.

304
00:15:45,620 --> 00:15:48,582
And they're looking at permanent magnet
motors versus different types of matters

305
00:15:48,582 --> 00:15:49,942
with this chemistry.

306
00:15:49,942 --> 00:15:52,683
And they're kind of approaching it from
that, but it's on the complete opposite

307
00:15:52,683 --> 00:15:59,106
side of the guy who's trying to get down
from 260 watt hours per mile to 250, just

308
00:15:59,106 --> 00:16:04,268
to get that like extra efficiency out of
it, but once again, very cool stuff across

309
00:16:04,268 --> 00:16:05,869
the board, but those are outliers.

310
00:16:05,869 --> 00:16:06,889
Well,

311
00:16:07,230 --> 00:16:12,273
Yeah, it speaks to the issue that we've
been talking about now for over a half a

312
00:16:12,273 --> 00:16:17,937
decade, which is we have to ask ourselves,
where are people coming from?

313
00:16:18,198 --> 00:16:23,041
And anytime you're taking any product to
market, this is just marketing 101, is if

314
00:16:23,041 --> 00:16:27,485
there's an incumbent product that the
general public loves using, and you're

315
00:16:27,485 --> 00:16:33,269
trying to supplant that, okay, what is it
about that product that they love?

316
00:16:33,329 --> 00:16:33,930
And

317
00:16:33,930 --> 00:16:36,771
The argument that many people use about,
oh, if you buy an EV, you don't have to go

318
00:16:36,771 --> 00:16:38,612
to that stinky gas station anymore.

319
00:16:38,612 --> 00:16:41,713
My response is most people couldn't care
less.

320
00:16:41,833 --> 00:16:45,154
If they are buying gas, the biggest
concern they always have is the price.

321
00:16:45,355 --> 00:16:48,196
But the idea that a gas station is so
stinky that they would never wanna go

322
00:16:48,196 --> 00:16:50,657
there ever again, there are certainly
people that will say that.

323
00:16:50,657 --> 00:16:53,658
But is it the vast majority of the
populace?

324
00:16:53,798 --> 00:16:57,080
No, because if that were true, gas cars
wouldn't be very successful.

325
00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,761
But people are willing to deal with that
to say,

326
00:17:00,798 --> 00:17:06,763
I'll go fill up and it takes me five to 10
minutes and it costs me 50 bucks or 60 to

327
00:17:06,763 --> 00:17:08,604
80, who knows, 100 bucks.

328
00:17:08,625 --> 00:17:12,008
But they're willing to pay for that
convenience of the other product that they

329
00:17:12,008 --> 00:17:14,450
need, which is their mode of
transportation.

330
00:17:14,450 --> 00:17:19,454
So gas is just a built in necessity that
they think they have to have.

331
00:17:19,454 --> 00:17:22,076
How many times have we heard when people
say, oh, it's a pure electric car and they

332
00:17:22,076 --> 00:17:23,557
say, yeah, but where's the gas go?

333
00:17:24,246 --> 00:17:25,186
Because they equate.

334
00:17:25,186 --> 00:17:28,829
I still I even heard that a month ago
about a Tesla and they're like, wait, what

335
00:17:28,829 --> 00:17:29,470
makes them special?

336
00:17:29,470 --> 00:17:30,070
They're just hybrids.

337
00:17:30,070 --> 00:17:32,092
And I was like, I know they're joking.

338
00:17:32,092 --> 00:17:33,673
But I mean, it's exactly true.

339
00:17:33,673 --> 00:17:34,814
It's still funny.

340
00:17:34,974 --> 00:17:38,617
It's and it's one of those things that I
think that, you know, we've been beating

341
00:17:38,617 --> 00:17:43,241
this drum now for literally years, but
it's becoming more obvious now because as

342
00:17:43,241 --> 00:17:46,683
we've been discussing, and as we chat
about before we started is we're hitting

343
00:17:46,683 --> 00:17:49,418
that mainstream market and these people

344
00:17:49,418 --> 00:17:54,099
that we want to have buying into and
believing EVs for their driving needs,

345
00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:58,100
they need to be explained the information
far differently than what we've been

346
00:17:58,100 --> 00:17:58,861
doing.

347
00:17:58,861 --> 00:18:02,202
We can't just keep going back to the well
saying, well, everybody will think like an

348
00:18:02,202 --> 00:18:02,822
early adopter.

349
00:18:02,822 --> 00:18:06,063
And the answer is if that were true, Apple
computers wouldn't exist.

350
00:18:06,063 --> 00:18:10,885
I mean, so we really need to be thoughtful
around how we present technology to

351
00:18:10,885 --> 00:18:11,265
people.

352
00:18:11,265 --> 00:18:15,426
And again, back to the incumbent aspect of
what is the product people have been using

353
00:18:15,426 --> 00:18:16,286
forever.

354
00:18:16,326 --> 00:18:19,408
It's a magic liquid that yet smells

355
00:18:19,408 --> 00:18:23,450
and it's expensive, but boy, when you get
that magic liquid and you put it inside

356
00:18:23,450 --> 00:18:28,693
your car, you get to move freely and
quickly and it doesn't really take much

357
00:18:28,693 --> 00:18:30,294
out of your life for time.

358
00:18:30,354 --> 00:18:31,995
And so that's important.

359
00:18:31,995 --> 00:18:35,037
And knowing how, if that's the competitive
landscape of how you need to communicate

360
00:18:35,037 --> 00:18:39,240
how your fuel works, you better be
bringing more to the table than, well,

361
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:43,162
this is a J1772 7.2 AC kilowatt connector
that can charge you up in about eight

362
00:18:43,162 --> 00:18:44,103
hours time.

363
00:18:44,103 --> 00:18:47,465
And then your only way to make that sound
better is saying something ridiculous

364
00:18:47,465 --> 00:18:48,145
like,

365
00:18:48,178 --> 00:18:51,298
It takes me, I tell people it takes me 10
seconds to charge.

366
00:18:51,498 --> 00:18:54,559
And every time I hear that, I say, please
never say that again.

367
00:18:54,639 --> 00:18:56,920
Because I could say the same thing about
pumping gas.

368
00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,161
Because all you're talking about is
connecting to your fuel source.

369
00:19:00,521 --> 00:19:03,622
I get you're being creative and kind of
cute around, well, then I just go in my

370
00:19:03,622 --> 00:19:05,122
house and I go on with my life.

371
00:19:05,122 --> 00:19:08,203
Perfectly fine, but that's not what an
average person that knows nothing needs to

372
00:19:08,203 --> 00:19:08,863
hear.

373
00:19:08,863 --> 00:19:11,744
They will actually want to know how long
does it take to fill up.

374
00:19:11,744 --> 00:19:15,605
And then when you break the news of, well,
that's at my house and it takes, if I need

375
00:19:15,605 --> 00:19:17,565
a full charge, about eight hours,

376
00:19:17,682 --> 00:19:19,943
it immediately sounds terrible.

377
00:19:19,983 --> 00:19:24,207
And then you're trying to regain their
trust again by saying, oh, no, but then if

378
00:19:24,207 --> 00:19:27,830
you find a DC fast charger, it only takes
maybe 15 to 20 minutes.

379
00:19:27,830 --> 00:19:29,151
And they go, great.

380
00:19:29,151 --> 00:19:34,015
But then when they realize that that's the
right fast charger with the right car, and

381
00:19:34,015 --> 00:19:37,858
you see this game is we have to be much
more thoughtful about how we communicate

382
00:19:37,858 --> 00:19:42,441
this because people are gonna just start
calling BS, frankly, on the EV industry.

383
00:19:42,462 --> 00:19:44,103
And I for one can't blame them.

384
00:19:44,103 --> 00:19:46,885
And that's what we've been working very
hard to try to resolve.

385
00:19:46,885 --> 00:19:47,445
So.

386
00:19:48,374 --> 00:19:53,778
Totally, and I think it is just kind of a
confusing juggling of, as you even said,

387
00:19:53,778 --> 00:19:58,741
the J1772 versus the North American
Charging Center and CCS1, CCS2.

388
00:19:59,362 --> 00:20:03,405
It all seems to be kind of going more
towards a single or depending on the

389
00:20:03,405 --> 00:20:09,310
market, a unit, but even then that's still
years away from, and we're not even sure

390
00:20:09,310 --> 00:20:10,530
if that's gonna happen.

391
00:20:11,571 --> 00:20:14,013
It looks like it will, but.

392
00:20:14,910 --> 00:20:16,731
People said that about CCS a year ago.

393
00:20:16,731 --> 00:20:18,772
They said that about Chattemo too.

394
00:20:18,772 --> 00:20:20,052
That's the future.

395
00:20:20,573 --> 00:20:27,377
But let's be fair, Tesla's plug type,
which is now the Nax, NACS, J3400 if

396
00:20:27,377 --> 00:20:31,819
you're talking SAE, it is without doubt
the best design.

397
00:20:31,819 --> 00:20:35,762
It is elegant, it's simple, it's
lightweight, it's identical to what you'd

398
00:20:35,762 --> 00:20:37,443
use at home and away from home.

399
00:20:37,443 --> 00:20:41,105
So the user experience of that is very
elegant.

400
00:20:41,105 --> 00:20:43,045
And that's credit to them.

401
00:20:43,182 --> 00:20:48,725
And it only took automakers that aren't
named Tesla years to realize, oh yeah, the

402
00:20:48,725 --> 00:20:52,868
fueling experience is a fundamental part
of this ownership of an EV.

403
00:20:52,868 --> 00:20:58,512
And so credit to Jim Farley when he said,
you know what, hey, we're making a pivot.

404
00:20:58,532 --> 00:21:02,054
And then everybody else that kind of came
on after the fact, it's like, well, I

405
00:21:02,054 --> 00:21:03,015
mean, not everybody's here yet.

406
00:21:03,015 --> 00:21:06,197
I mean, in those mountains, like
Volkswagen Group is still kind of saying

407
00:21:06,197 --> 00:21:06,977
no.

408
00:21:07,798 --> 00:21:11,201
And fairness, they've got billions
invested into a charging network that

409
00:21:11,201 --> 00:21:12,761
doesn't have NACs on it.

410
00:21:13,614 --> 00:21:16,295
But these are things that even to your
point, even we waved a magic wand

411
00:21:16,295 --> 00:21:20,336
tomorrow, and if everything became, you
know, the Tesla connector, the Naxx

412
00:21:20,336 --> 00:21:25,297
connector, or the red connector in charge
way overnight, we'd still have to contend

413
00:21:25,297 --> 00:21:26,337
with power.

414
00:21:26,437 --> 00:21:30,138
We still have that gamemanship of that
conversation we just had about it takes me

415
00:21:30,138 --> 00:21:32,659
10 seconds, oopsie, I meant eight hours
and kind of thing.

416
00:21:32,659 --> 00:21:36,640
So it's not like it's the silver bullet
solution, but it certainly is a good step

417
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,801
forward, in my opinion, for making people
enjoy the experience more for sure.

418
00:21:41,322 --> 00:21:45,864
Well, it goes back to exactly what we were
saying early about these other, uh, the

419
00:21:45,864 --> 00:21:50,626
two brands that these other people were
looking at because at that, there's that

420
00:21:50,626 --> 00:21:55,468
in that comparison, they're talking about
the same charge port, but the battery side

421
00:21:55,468 --> 00:22:00,190
of it completely changes what that dynamic
is and the charging ability for how often

422
00:22:00,190 --> 00:22:05,492
and how long they have to stop to charge
there with, uh, with the work you've kind

423
00:22:05,492 --> 00:22:09,113
of done there with some of the
integrations you've done with the

424
00:22:09,130 --> 00:22:14,692
Cause I'd be kind of curious to hear your
experience while Chargeway has kind of

425
00:22:14,692 --> 00:22:19,894
evolved with, because I believe it's
compatible with CarPlay and Android Auto

426
00:22:19,894 --> 00:22:21,075
or just CarPlay or?

427
00:22:21,075 --> 00:22:23,056
Currently CarPlay and Android Auto.

428
00:22:23,056 --> 00:22:25,837
Yeah, we've been focused on trying to get
that out to market.

429
00:22:26,317 --> 00:22:30,579
Version two and the redesign basically got
bumped up the list on getting that done.

430
00:22:30,699 --> 00:22:34,801
But yeah, Android Auto for emulation for
Android Auto is something that we're

431
00:22:34,801 --> 00:22:36,261
hoping to have out at the beginning of the
year.

432
00:22:36,261 --> 00:22:36,901
So.

433
00:22:37,706 --> 00:22:41,709
Well, in your experience of kind of going
from the app to now the actual

434
00:22:41,709 --> 00:22:46,273
infotainment in the car, were there any
surprises or kind of any interesting

435
00:22:46,273 --> 00:22:48,354
things that you learned with that
addition?

436
00:22:48,354 --> 00:22:52,918
Or was it kind of more or less now the,
all that changes the view for the driver?

437
00:22:52,918 --> 00:22:55,720
Oh, and actually, no, it's actually, it's
the former.

438
00:22:55,720 --> 00:23:02,165
It's the problem with, it's not a problem,
but Android Auto and CarPlay.

439
00:23:02,454 --> 00:23:09,758
By design, they're trying to make it as
easy to simplify to the UI UX of it, make

440
00:23:09,758 --> 00:23:11,699
it so there's not a lot of distraction on
there.

441
00:23:11,699 --> 00:23:14,400
They reduce a lot of content off of what
you can show.

442
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,743
So you have to be very selective with what
you show, but it can start to really chip

443
00:23:18,743 --> 00:23:22,545
away at the value of what the software is
doing in some ways.

444
00:23:23,025 --> 00:23:28,328
And there's also just some limitations
around what the software can do in iOS and

445
00:23:28,328 --> 00:23:30,674
Android when you're emulating inside the
car.

446
00:23:30,674 --> 00:23:33,115
certain treatments they do to mapping, for
example.

447
00:23:33,656 --> 00:23:37,960
We have our own UI for how we identify
pins and charges on the map with color and

448
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:42,785
number for plug type and power, but how
Android and how iOS might collectively

449
00:23:42,785 --> 00:23:47,429
group pins together throws off our UI a
bit and there's really no work around for

450
00:23:47,429 --> 00:23:51,693
it, but it's their way of trying to,
again, take what you're offering up as an

451
00:23:51,693 --> 00:23:56,017
app, feed it into the vehicle world in a
way that it creates value, but also

452
00:23:56,017 --> 00:23:57,237
doesn't distract.

453
00:23:57,594 --> 00:24:00,855
So there's a lot of people to get a lot of
joy out of using CarPlay.

454
00:24:00,855 --> 00:24:05,077
And we've got a lot of our users tell us
that they're really happy that we have it.

455
00:24:05,117 --> 00:24:07,558
But there's ways we'd love to refine it
more.

456
00:24:07,558 --> 00:24:09,599
But there's just some limitations to it
currently.

457
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:14,462
Frankly, I think that once Apple really
steps into the game and starts offering

458
00:24:14,462 --> 00:24:18,984
software for vehicles, I mean, Project
Titan aside, and if they're building some

459
00:24:18,984 --> 00:24:23,366
EV or whatever, like that's meh, you know,
but if they're going to come through with

460
00:24:23,366 --> 00:24:27,588
what they're talking about for in-vehicle
infotainment and software,

461
00:24:28,048 --> 00:24:31,128
frankly, I'm excited to see what that
could be.

462
00:24:31,428 --> 00:24:36,329
Because if you are talking about driving
EV right now, I mean, Tesla's, they are

463
00:24:36,329 --> 00:24:40,550
the number one when it comes to software
UI, UX, and how smooth it operates.

464
00:24:40,550 --> 00:24:42,111
It's just very well built.

465
00:24:42,131 --> 00:24:45,711
And frankly, everyone else is behind that,
still just trying to figure it out.

466
00:24:45,711 --> 00:24:49,992
And that's even for vehicles that have
Google integration, there are some areas

467
00:24:49,992 --> 00:24:52,333
there where there's just still some needs
for improvement.

468
00:24:52,333 --> 00:24:55,353
So I think that's a fundamental piece.

469
00:24:55,353 --> 00:24:55,798
So.

470
00:24:55,798 --> 00:25:00,019
CarPlay and Android Auto are good as a
kind of a stop gap, I think, but we'll see

471
00:25:00,019 --> 00:25:03,801
what happens as those two tech titans
really start to really get into this

472
00:25:03,801 --> 00:25:06,282
space, you know, time will tell.

473
00:25:06,282 --> 00:25:09,163
And hopefully we get to work with them on
it.

474
00:25:09,163 --> 00:25:10,423
So.

475
00:25:10,423 --> 00:25:11,523
Yeah, that's great to hear.

476
00:25:11,523 --> 00:25:14,945
I mean, I know it's kind of one of those
easy things that I think it's probably

477
00:25:14,945 --> 00:25:17,185
true for a lot of listeners too, where
it's like.

478
00:25:17,322 --> 00:25:20,344
if you're renting a car and you don't
know, or you're not familiar with that

479
00:25:20,344 --> 00:25:25,108
brand, having the car play kind of is just
like the easy thing to plug it in and just

480
00:25:25,108 --> 00:25:26,669
now you know how the car works.

481
00:25:26,669 --> 00:25:28,251
Or how- It feels familiar, right?

482
00:25:28,251 --> 00:25:29,472
Right, exactly.

483
00:25:29,472 --> 00:25:30,532
Okay, this is not scary.

484
00:25:30,532 --> 00:25:32,394
Right, right, right.

485
00:25:32,394 --> 00:25:37,278
And I think that fundamentally, it kind of
goes back to a core value, maybe

486
00:25:37,278 --> 00:25:41,101
unintentionally of the Chargeway app, of
just trying to make it something familiar,

487
00:25:41,101 --> 00:25:45,465
something easy, and really to simplify it
across car brand.

488
00:25:45,465 --> 00:25:46,685
Because I've used it

489
00:25:46,930 --> 00:25:50,210
when I've kind of played with a couple
other different car brands and I don't

490
00:25:50,210 --> 00:25:56,212
really either trust the native routing
software or to be honest, sometimes it's

491
00:25:56,212 --> 00:26:01,634
just so slow that I just say whatever and
go with something I kind of know and trust

492
00:26:01,634 --> 00:26:02,374
more.

493
00:26:02,754 --> 00:26:08,015
With that, has there been many
conversations or can you share if

494
00:26:08,015 --> 00:26:13,657
Chargeway has really been working with any
OEMs to like natively help their actual

495
00:26:13,657 --> 00:26:16,097
infotainment routing systems?

496
00:26:16,190 --> 00:26:19,191
Yeah, we've had plenty of those
conversations with plenty of OEMs and

497
00:26:19,191 --> 00:26:24,474
we're having more of them again because I
think again, rewinding four or five years

498
00:26:24,474 --> 00:26:28,677
when we first came to market with our
solution, we met with everybody and that

499
00:26:28,677 --> 00:26:31,098
included, I mean that name of OEM we met
with them.

500
00:26:31,118 --> 00:26:34,140
And I think what we discovered quickly
then was we were having meetings with

501
00:26:34,140 --> 00:26:36,421
people that had never even thought of
this.

502
00:26:36,501 --> 00:26:40,744
They were running EV teams at legacy OEMs
and getting their feet under them for what

503
00:26:40,744 --> 00:26:41,464
they needed to build.

504
00:26:41,464 --> 00:26:43,785
But again, the perspective of the
automakers is,

505
00:26:44,746 --> 00:26:46,407
This isn't something that we normally
solve.

506
00:26:46,407 --> 00:26:49,348
We build the car, these will have big
batteries in them.

507
00:26:49,348 --> 00:26:50,889
They'll have a connector on it.

508
00:26:50,889 --> 00:26:54,111
Yes, we need some software, but we can
source that.

509
00:26:54,111 --> 00:26:57,193
We can find a software partner that can do
that for us, et cetera.

510
00:26:57,273 --> 00:27:01,695
And I think it was an interview done by, I
think it was Jim Farley when he was on a

511
00:27:01,695 --> 00:27:04,657
podcast, sometime this past year.

512
00:27:04,657 --> 00:27:08,839
And he commented on that, because he said,
look, he's like, we currently have, I

513
00:27:08,839 --> 00:27:13,261
forget how many software vendors that he
mentioned, but he said, we have to get...

514
00:27:13,294 --> 00:27:16,515
all of them to line up on the same page
now.

515
00:27:16,595 --> 00:27:18,136
And that's not simple.

516
00:27:18,376 --> 00:27:21,177
Like there's a lot that goes into making
that happen in the ways that we need to be

517
00:27:21,177 --> 00:27:22,778
thinking about how an EV operates.

518
00:27:22,778 --> 00:27:27,580
And I've appreciated watching the candor
from people like him around the challenges

519
00:27:27,580 --> 00:27:31,182
that the legacy OEMs face as it relates to
product development and then

520
00:27:31,182 --> 00:27:32,422
manufacturing.

521
00:27:32,443 --> 00:27:36,624
And that's something that, again, five
years ago when we met with a lot of folks

522
00:27:36,624 --> 00:27:39,426
saying, hey, here's what we've developed
and this is why we think you should be

523
00:27:39,426 --> 00:27:40,566
paying attention.

524
00:27:40,806 --> 00:27:43,088
Many of them said, yeah, we agree,

525
00:27:43,088 --> 00:27:45,148
that this is going to get solved
elsewhere.

526
00:27:45,488 --> 00:27:49,609
And here we are half a decade or more
later, and it didn't get solved elsewhere.

527
00:27:49,609 --> 00:27:54,231
In fact, we still have issues related to
Volkswagen Group having gone through a lot

528
00:27:54,231 --> 00:27:56,211
of turmoil with software.

529
00:27:57,132 --> 00:27:59,953
Even Ford's team has said, yeah, we're
going to do stuff internally, but we're

530
00:27:59,953 --> 00:28:03,053
inviting other platforms to be a part of
what we're doing.

531
00:28:03,310 --> 00:28:07,513
But then you have other companies like GM,
they are all in on using Google.

532
00:28:07,593 --> 00:28:11,677
And that's gonna be, and they've said
like, we're gonna do our own stuff in

533
00:28:11,677 --> 00:28:12,277
house too.

534
00:28:12,277 --> 00:28:14,219
You're not gonna have CarPlay anymore.

535
00:28:14,219 --> 00:28:15,660
You're not gonna have Android Auto.

536
00:28:15,660 --> 00:28:20,504
And the response to our conversation we
just had, how many people read that news

537
00:28:20,504 --> 00:28:23,386
and on social media were basically saying,
are you crazy?

538
00:28:23,607 --> 00:28:26,469
Like, this has to be so perfect, you know?

539
00:28:26,469 --> 00:28:29,672
And it's- Yeah, no, and it's definitely,
that alone has been a topic we've talked

540
00:28:29,672 --> 00:28:31,713
about on this episode, that decision.

541
00:28:32,246 --> 00:28:34,047
It just needs to be pretty damn good.

542
00:28:34,047 --> 00:28:38,430
I've seen a couple early reviews saying it
is pretty good, but I mean that, like we

543
00:28:38,430 --> 00:28:42,153
just talked about, it's a big crutch for
people when they're getting into a new car

544
00:28:42,153 --> 00:28:45,335
and it's just one of those battles and of
all the things that you have to

545
00:28:45,395 --> 00:28:50,739
essentially rebuild and think about and
put the investment resources in when going

546
00:28:50,739 --> 00:28:54,261
to a fully electric platform that kind of
makes the question is like, is that the

547
00:28:54,261 --> 00:28:55,742
biggest priority right now?

548
00:28:55,842 --> 00:28:56,423
Oh yeah.

549
00:28:56,423 --> 00:28:59,945
And how often do we still see people on
owners groups that'll put up an email they

550
00:28:59,945 --> 00:29:00,805
got from

551
00:29:00,810 --> 00:29:04,452
you know, the brand of vehicle they own
will say, like, you're due for an oil

552
00:29:04,452 --> 00:29:08,194
change, or they'll even say it inside the
car, you know?

553
00:29:08,194 --> 00:29:10,176
And they're just kind of like, really?

554
00:29:10,176 --> 00:29:10,996
You know?

555
00:29:10,996 --> 00:29:16,320
And it's just, I think in fairness, we're
asking a very large global industry to

556
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,481
think differently about the product
they've built for the last century.

557
00:29:19,694 --> 00:29:22,234
and it's a lot to unpack.

558
00:29:22,735 --> 00:29:26,336
Aside from the skin and bones of the cars
that they built, and that's where, again,

559
00:29:26,336 --> 00:29:28,497
the legacy auto brands, they still shine.

560
00:29:28,497 --> 00:29:35,039
You could put a brand new Audi or Ford or
anything next to some of the newcomers,

561
00:29:35,099 --> 00:29:38,961
and you can see that, well, these legacy
brands, boy, they know how to put together

562
00:29:38,961 --> 00:29:40,221
a car outside and inside.

563
00:29:40,221 --> 00:29:40,926
And it's...

564
00:29:40,926 --> 00:29:42,787
It finishes great materials.

565
00:29:42,787 --> 00:29:44,508
Oftentimes are so spot on.

566
00:29:44,549 --> 00:29:46,851
But it's that's just skin deep.

567
00:29:46,851 --> 00:29:52,315
If you go underneath battery software,
access livability is what I can always

568
00:29:52,315 --> 00:29:53,216
refer to it as.

569
00:29:53,216 --> 00:29:58,220
Yeah, there's just I mean, it's as funny
as it is, like even my wife doesn't want

570
00:29:58,220 --> 00:30:00,822
to for things where we have two cars of
all things.

571
00:30:00,822 --> 00:30:05,105
One is a Tesla Model Y, which is kind of
our road tripper daily car.

572
00:30:05,362 --> 00:30:10,285
And then the other car is a 1987 Land
Rover Defender 90, which is about as

573
00:30:10,285 --> 00:30:11,306
complete opposite.

574
00:30:11,306 --> 00:30:12,006
Yeah, I was gonna say, go Sir.

575
00:30:12,006 --> 00:30:12,587
As you can get.

576
00:30:12,587 --> 00:30:13,987
Woohoo.

577
00:30:13,987 --> 00:30:17,570
Yeah, the plan is to make that electric
eventually, but it's living in central

578
00:30:17,570 --> 00:30:21,393
Oregon, it's a great adventure vehicle,
and I love the thing for completely

579
00:30:21,393 --> 00:30:22,573
different reasons.

580
00:30:23,134 --> 00:30:27,657
But the problem is like a car like that
has infinitely more character than I don't

581
00:30:27,657 --> 00:30:31,399
care what brand you wanna throw at it of
its modern equivalent, because they've all

582
00:30:31,399 --> 00:30:34,901
more or less gone to electric, steering,
all these other things that kind of

583
00:30:34,994 --> 00:30:36,335
And it's Land Rover.

584
00:30:36,335 --> 00:30:40,898
That's kind of the beauty of it is you're
happy if it starts and even happier if

585
00:30:41,339 --> 00:30:45,483
there's not like a mouse or something in
the car or any other kind of pleasant.

586
00:30:45,483 --> 00:30:47,004
I mean, it gives a character.

587
00:30:47,124 --> 00:30:50,227
All the old cliches around like, yeah, you
love it if it runs kind of thing.

588
00:30:50,227 --> 00:30:51,688
Right, oh yeah, no.

589
00:30:51,829 --> 00:30:53,470
And that's also the ironic beauty of it.

590
00:30:53,470 --> 00:30:57,854
Like I opened it the other day just to
look underneath and check a couple of

591
00:30:57,854 --> 00:30:58,234
things.

592
00:30:58,234 --> 00:31:01,837
And I can't think of anything I have seen.

593
00:31:02,034 --> 00:31:07,279
recently, not even car wise, just like so
many like products or appliances that have

594
00:31:07,279 --> 00:31:08,619
so few wires.

595
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,803
There is like, essentially, it goes from
the battery to the lights, and then a

596
00:31:11,803 --> 00:31:15,647
couple of check engine lights, and then
the rest is all hardware and manual, which

597
00:31:15,647 --> 00:31:18,149
is kind of a beauty, beautiful kind of
simplicity to it.

598
00:31:18,149 --> 00:31:20,992
But that's going to down a whole different
rabbit hole.

599
00:31:20,992 --> 00:31:21,552
There's an analog.

600
00:31:21,552 --> 00:31:23,834
I mean, there's a totally.

601
00:31:23,834 --> 00:31:24,675
Yeah.

602
00:31:24,955 --> 00:31:27,390
And that's like a car that

603
00:31:27,390 --> 00:31:28,870
really has not many features.

604
00:31:28,870 --> 00:31:32,152
It doesn't even have a tachometer or even
a, it has a CB radio that someone

605
00:31:32,152 --> 00:31:35,334
installed, but it doesn't have a regular
radio.

606
00:31:36,855 --> 00:31:38,896
And then you look at, yeah, you're right.

607
00:31:38,896 --> 00:31:42,018
Like some of the Audi, I mean, pretty much
any of the German brands.

608
00:31:42,018 --> 00:31:43,919
Amazing on the outside, great styling.

609
00:31:43,919 --> 00:31:46,120
Get in the seats, feel amazing.

610
00:31:46,481 --> 00:31:50,823
My mother actually is looking to replace
her decade old Mercedes and she's kind of

611
00:31:50,823 --> 00:31:54,605
been going back and forth because the one
thing she wants is it to be electric.

612
00:31:54,814 --> 00:31:58,234
But even then it's like she starts playing
with these other things and she gets kind

613
00:31:58,234 --> 00:32:00,715
of either overwhelmed or you're right.

614
00:32:00,715 --> 00:32:04,216
It's like the livability of it just kind
of falls apart.

615
00:32:04,216 --> 00:32:07,737
And I think this kind of goes what I was
trying to say was my wife one of her big

616
00:32:07,737 --> 00:32:11,798
things now is because they tell us like if
she buys another car, like the dog mode

617
00:32:11,798 --> 00:32:15,379
feature is she won't consider a car
because we have dogs because it has that

618
00:32:15,379 --> 00:32:16,839
kind of silly thing.

619
00:32:17,020 --> 00:32:20,921
But any modern electric EV should really
be able to do it.

620
00:32:21,761 --> 00:32:24,401
And it's that livability thing that you

621
00:32:24,450 --> 00:32:29,032
the companies that if you want just a car
to get you from point A to point B, and

622
00:32:29,032 --> 00:32:31,053
that's what a lot of people say they want.

623
00:32:32,114 --> 00:32:33,274
That's sure.

624
00:32:33,274 --> 00:32:34,135
That's pretty easy.

625
00:32:34,135 --> 00:32:37,597
But when you start kind of like talking to
people about how they use the car or

626
00:32:37,597 --> 00:32:41,018
what's really important to them, that's
when you start, there's that kind of idea.

627
00:32:41,018 --> 00:32:45,901
Like, Oh, just cause this car company can
build something that has better panel gaps

628
00:32:45,901 --> 00:32:47,194
or something else like that.

629
00:32:47,194 --> 00:32:51,097
it really falls apart in why some of these
startups have kind of transcended from

630
00:32:51,097 --> 00:32:55,280
being startups and are now very large,
successful, new automotive companies.

631
00:32:55,281 --> 00:32:58,463
Well, we're kind of just walking around
the topic, but I mean, we're referencing

632
00:32:58,463 --> 00:32:59,604
Tesla in most ways.

633
00:32:59,604 --> 00:33:02,607
And I think, you know, and Rivian is an
example.

634
00:33:02,607 --> 00:33:07,631
There's a lot of people that, that came
out of the Tesla alumni group that joined

635
00:33:07,631 --> 00:33:10,873
companies like Rivian that have taken a
lot of learnings out of.

636
00:33:10,998 --> 00:33:12,818
some of it, you know, cutting their teeth
on it.

637
00:33:12,818 --> 00:33:15,839
That's copy great artists deal kind of,
which is fine.

638
00:33:15,839 --> 00:33:16,559
And it works for them.

639
00:33:16,559 --> 00:33:17,159
Yeah.

640
00:33:17,159 --> 00:33:20,020
Well, I mean, I mean, even the little
stuff, like you got dog mode inside the

641
00:33:20,020 --> 00:33:22,761
Tesla and you got like the little, the
little Sasquatch dude inside of Rivian you

642
00:33:22,761 --> 00:33:23,901
know what I mean?

643
00:33:24,121 --> 00:33:28,543
But, but those little things that add a
level of, you know, comfort and some, just

644
00:33:28,543 --> 00:33:33,284
like cuteness is not everybody wants to,
we've seen movies about the future where

645
00:33:33,284 --> 00:33:37,605
it's like these heads up displays and
screens that have just charts and numbers

646
00:33:37,605 --> 00:33:38,986
and lines and graphs and

647
00:33:38,986 --> 00:33:41,807
And for some reason, everybody on the ship
knows how to use it.

648
00:33:41,807 --> 00:33:45,568
You know, and I'm looking back going, I
gotta be honest, I don't think that's

649
00:33:45,568 --> 00:33:47,369
like- That seems like a step back.

650
00:33:47,429 --> 00:33:50,230
Well, it's just like, yeah, I think most
people are gonna be like, you guys have a

651
00:33:50,230 --> 00:33:52,231
button that says EZ on it?

652
00:33:52,231 --> 00:33:56,413
Because back in like forever ago, there
was a company called Staples that did

653
00:33:56,413 --> 00:33:56,653
that.

654
00:33:56,653 --> 00:33:58,034
And I loved it, you know?

655
00:33:58,034 --> 00:34:00,955
I mean, and it's a gag, but that's how
people think.

656
00:34:00,955 --> 00:34:04,937
And I think that the in-vehicle
experience, I mean, I've driven plenty of

657
00:34:04,937 --> 00:34:05,937
other EVs aside.

658
00:34:05,937 --> 00:34:07,382
I mean, my wife and I,

659
00:34:07,382 --> 00:34:11,485
She has a Model Y, I have a Model 3, but
prior to that we had a Bolt, we had both

660
00:34:11,485 --> 00:34:16,009
generations of Chevy Volt, we had a Spark
EV, and I've driven plenty of other

661
00:34:16,009 --> 00:34:23,216
vehicles, and I have to say there is
something to the minimalism approach that

662
00:34:23,216 --> 00:34:24,577
Tesla has used.

663
00:34:24,577 --> 00:34:28,220
Now on one hand, it's great for
manufacturing because it's like 75 less

664
00:34:28,220 --> 00:34:29,381
buttons, you know?

665
00:34:29,381 --> 00:34:32,945
It's just, it's like, eh, it's cheaper to
build a car that way.

666
00:34:32,945 --> 00:34:34,006
But at the same time,

667
00:34:34,006 --> 00:34:38,687
the to your point about how they can make
changes and add features that are unique

668
00:34:38,847 --> 00:34:42,128
leveraging software that way is really
amazing.

669
00:34:42,168 --> 00:34:46,090
And I think that they've really shown how
they can do that in a very thoughtful way.

670
00:34:46,090 --> 00:34:51,912
Um, but these other companies that again,
legacy brands, especially they have to

671
00:34:51,912 --> 00:34:56,033
figure out where software will live in
their world as a core competency.

672
00:34:56,282 --> 00:34:57,442
But I hear that conversation.

673
00:34:57,442 --> 00:35:02,105
And then on the other side, the next day I
hear, and now we have blank energy as part

674
00:35:02,105 --> 00:35:07,028
of our home energy, something I'm going,
okay, I get it.

675
00:35:07,028 --> 00:35:09,309
It's important to figure out how to
compete.

676
00:35:09,309 --> 00:35:14,532
But at some point, I mean, I'm very
exhausted with the press releases.

677
00:35:14,532 --> 00:35:15,572
Let's say that.

678
00:35:16,013 --> 00:35:16,553
I don't wanna see it.

679
00:35:16,553 --> 00:35:16,993
That's pretty blately.

680
00:35:16,993 --> 00:35:17,173
Yeah.

681
00:35:17,173 --> 00:35:22,116
I mean, it's how often can you read
something and if you're in the new, if

682
00:35:22,116 --> 00:35:25,218
you're in the know, you look at it and go,
no, that's fluff.

683
00:35:25,382 --> 00:35:25,782
Yeah.

684
00:35:25,782 --> 00:35:27,523
Well, and it's no meat on that bone.

685
00:35:27,523 --> 00:35:31,466
It kind of goes back to the conversation
we were also having earlier, uh, about an

686
00:35:31,466 --> 00:35:35,909
organization around like focusing on all
sorts of different things instead of

687
00:35:35,909 --> 00:35:37,090
staying in that kind of core area.

688
00:35:37,090 --> 00:35:39,371
And I, I am the biggest fan.

689
00:35:39,371 --> 00:35:42,633
I think the concept of vehicle degrade is
really fascinating.

690
00:35:42,633 --> 00:35:46,936
I think there's a lot of potential, but I
do not think they have thought that one

691
00:35:46,936 --> 00:35:50,238
through as far as how many questions that
generates.

692
00:35:50,499 --> 00:35:55,241
And it gets a lot of people interested in
the technology, but unfortunately, uh,

693
00:35:55,930 --> 00:35:59,511
it falls apart real quickly when they find
out they have to upgrade their panel just

694
00:35:59,511 --> 00:35:59,971
to do it.

695
00:35:59,971 --> 00:36:05,274
And that's $6,000 plus another $10,000 to
put in another gateway and all these other

696
00:36:05,274 --> 00:36:06,574
things they have to do.

697
00:36:07,935 --> 00:36:11,156
Obviously if you've got a really brand new
home and the panels wide open, yeah, it

698
00:36:11,156 --> 00:36:13,737
should be, then it's only a couple
thousand dollars.

699
00:36:13,897 --> 00:36:15,798
But it's not- But it's still thousands of
dollars.

700
00:36:15,798 --> 00:36:17,079
Yeah, exactly.

701
00:36:17,079 --> 00:36:20,240
And it's not like, I think everyone sees
like, oh, I just plug it in and it just

702
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:21,060
works.

703
00:36:21,180 --> 00:36:23,961
And unfortunately- Well, that's what the
Super Bowl ad.

704
00:36:23,978 --> 00:36:25,179
Yeah, a few years ago.

705
00:36:25,179 --> 00:36:28,321
And the reference you just made is exactly
what I saw in an owner's group.

706
00:36:28,321 --> 00:36:32,284
Someone had reserved a particular truck
that promised that they could charge your

707
00:36:32,284 --> 00:36:35,907
home for keep your house powered on for a
week or more.

708
00:36:35,967 --> 00:36:38,710
And they reserved the truck and then they
called their electrician and the

709
00:36:38,710 --> 00:36:40,771
electrician said, what are you doing?

710
00:36:40,811 --> 00:36:42,873
And he's this is a guy in this.

711
00:36:42,873 --> 00:36:46,976
He had a whole paragraph, multi-paragraph
response, but it wasn't even about the

712
00:36:46,976 --> 00:36:47,777
money.

713
00:36:47,857 --> 00:36:51,320
It was about the fact that he felt duped
because by the time he got done talking to

714
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,670
his electrician, the guy walked him
through it and said,

715
00:36:53,670 --> 00:36:56,912
Yeah, this is going to probably end up
costing about 20,000 bucks to fully

716
00:36:56,912 --> 00:37:01,495
upgrade everything and get all the
equipment and do it to do what you want.

717
00:37:01,515 --> 00:37:06,799
And that to me is, is again, it's just the
we have to look like we're competing.

718
00:37:06,799 --> 00:37:08,840
So let's say something.

719
00:37:09,060 --> 00:37:12,122
And then, oh, we didn't really know what
we were talking about.

720
00:37:12,122 --> 00:37:17,526
But also in fairness, let's be honest,
like Tesla, they weren't offering Vita X

721
00:37:17,526 --> 00:37:18,346
either.

722
00:37:18,547 --> 00:37:21,649
They, they, they're just like buy more
batteries from us.

723
00:37:21,649 --> 00:37:22,909
Yeah.

724
00:37:23,082 --> 00:37:26,964
It's only really within the announcement
of the cyber truck within the past month

725
00:37:26,964 --> 00:37:29,765
that they're like, okay, now we're going
to try doing this.

726
00:37:29,765 --> 00:37:33,967
Well, they, they signed themselves up for
that with every deal they made for access

727
00:37:33,967 --> 00:37:37,849
to the supercharger network and vehicles
and for sure.

728
00:37:37,849 --> 00:37:38,310
Yeah.

729
00:37:38,310 --> 00:37:42,132
But I grew the a thousand percent on the
Vita X promise.

730
00:37:42,132 --> 00:37:45,894
And we've been asked this by many partners
that we work with is, you know, what's the

731
00:37:45,894 --> 00:37:50,136
role you think you can play in, in the
programs we have related to manage

732
00:37:50,136 --> 00:37:52,257
charging and Vita X, et cetera.

733
00:37:52,257 --> 00:37:52,977
And I,

734
00:37:53,050 --> 00:37:56,411
And we've got some things that we're
working on for how we can slowly roll into

735
00:37:56,411 --> 00:37:57,712
those conversations.

736
00:37:57,772 --> 00:38:01,994
But I've said to many people, I think the
promise of that, like you said very well,

737
00:38:01,994 --> 00:38:06,296
is people are not thinking about the human
element there.

738
00:38:06,496 --> 00:38:08,837
What are we actually asking people to do?

739
00:38:08,837 --> 00:38:12,739
We're effectively saying to them, if
you're a homeowner, when you plug your

740
00:38:12,739 --> 00:38:17,961
vehicle in, we will siphon fuel out of
your car at some point that you paid for.

741
00:38:18,438 --> 00:38:21,559
and we have to then offer them some kind
of actual value back.

742
00:38:21,559 --> 00:38:25,540
And right now the programs that are pilots
around this are, if you sign up today,

743
00:38:25,540 --> 00:38:26,641
we'll give you a hundred bucks.

744
00:38:26,641 --> 00:38:31,182
And if you keep doing this at the right
time, we'll give you another 25.

745
00:38:31,182 --> 00:38:34,423
I think that for early adopters that want
to, just cause they like to nerd out on

746
00:38:34,423 --> 00:38:36,684
the engineering and the tech, I think they
might dive in.

747
00:38:36,884 --> 00:38:40,225
Average folks are going to say real quick
timeout.

748
00:38:40,370 --> 00:38:41,971
If I pay hell no.

749
00:38:41,971 --> 00:38:42,531
Yeah.

750
00:38:42,531 --> 00:38:46,314
If I paid X amount of dollars for this
fuel, you better be giving me a pretty

751
00:38:46,314 --> 00:38:49,015
good premium to suck it back out of my
car.

752
00:38:49,015 --> 00:38:51,457
You know, and it's, it's just invasive.

753
00:38:51,477 --> 00:38:54,719
And everybody that I've talked to inside
of the energy sector that are a lot of

754
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:59,162
them that are leading these projects,
there is a need to create a better

755
00:38:59,162 --> 00:39:00,343
appreciation around.

756
00:39:00,343 --> 00:39:01,804
This is not a thermostat.

757
00:39:01,804 --> 00:39:03,365
This is not a fridge.

758
00:39:03,365 --> 00:39:04,826
This is someone's car.

759
00:39:04,826 --> 00:39:06,087
It's their, it's their

760
00:39:09,898 --> 00:39:12,898
You can't just tap into that like it's a
thermostat.

761
00:39:13,259 --> 00:39:16,720
It's a different, you are engaging with
someone that someone and something about

762
00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:20,721
their ownership experience that's very
different than what you might be thinking.

763
00:39:20,721 --> 00:39:24,782
So yeah, I agree with you 100% is there's
a lot more that needs to be discussed

764
00:39:24,782 --> 00:39:26,002
around this before.

765
00:39:26,123 --> 00:39:30,324
We have all these stationary storage
things waiting for us to tap into.

766
00:39:30,324 --> 00:39:34,225
It's like, no, there are people that own
cars that you're hoping they will sign up

767
00:39:34,225 --> 00:39:35,230
for what you're doing.

768
00:39:35,230 --> 00:39:38,072
And then there's that whole thing called
software that a lot of these OEMs are

769
00:39:38,072 --> 00:39:40,914
struggling with that is the only way that
this is all gonna work.

770
00:39:40,914 --> 00:39:43,076
Right, yeah.

771
00:39:43,076 --> 00:39:48,801
Yeah, I'm cautiously optimistic, but I
mean, I think there's plenty of reasons

772
00:39:48,801 --> 00:39:51,043
you could say why Tesla actually wasn't
doing it.

773
00:39:51,043 --> 00:39:55,146
But I always did think the argument that
at least they were trying to make, or at

774
00:39:55,146 --> 00:39:59,430
least Elon was specifically about the
ideas like, well, if you're, and kind of

775
00:39:59,430 --> 00:40:03,893
growing up somewhere where maybe once a
year, maybe twice a year, if it's a bad

776
00:40:03,893 --> 00:40:04,513
year,

777
00:40:04,558 --> 00:40:07,859
Uh, we might lose power for like a couple
of days.

778
00:40:07,900 --> 00:40:11,582
And so the argument was like, well, if
you're out of power and it's plugged in

779
00:40:11,582 --> 00:40:15,825
your car and you have to go to the store,
that's great for you, but the rest of your

780
00:40:15,825 --> 00:40:18,166
family now is out of dark.

781
00:40:18,246 --> 00:40:18,847
Yeah.

782
00:40:18,847 --> 00:40:22,749
And I mean, some power is better than no
power, I guess, but like, you and I kind

783
00:40:22,749 --> 00:40:23,309
of agree with that.

784
00:40:23,309 --> 00:40:27,212
I was like, yeah, that kind of kind of
automatically, uh, now that you can even

785
00:40:27,212 --> 00:40:29,994
do that with the cyber truck as a backup
thing, I would still.

786
00:40:29,994 --> 00:40:33,194
I mean, now I don't have to buy like 10 or
whatever powerwalls, but it's still like,

787
00:40:33,194 --> 00:40:35,455
if you actually consider about this, you
still have to buy one.

788
00:40:35,455 --> 00:40:36,655
They're not cheap.

789
00:40:36,815 --> 00:40:38,996
Well, and no, that's that example.

790
00:40:38,996 --> 00:40:40,176
And that's a whole nother thing.

791
00:40:40,176 --> 00:40:40,856
Yeah.

792
00:40:41,036 --> 00:40:42,577
But that's the exact example.

793
00:40:42,577 --> 00:40:46,638
The gentleman that had reserved that it
was a 450 lightning.

794
00:40:46,638 --> 00:40:48,438
And that was the exact example he gave.

795
00:40:48,438 --> 00:40:51,719
He said, he said, my daughter is an
asthmatic.

796
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:52,800
And sometimes we've had to rush her.

797
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,700
You know, like we've had incidences where
we've had to take her to the hospital.

798
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:57,901
So what happens if I have to take her to
the hospital?

799
00:40:57,901 --> 00:40:59,941
And my electrician said, well,

800
00:40:59,966 --> 00:41:02,648
you unplug your truck and your house turns
off.

801
00:41:02,648 --> 00:41:05,290
And he said, how is this a value add to my
life again?

802
00:41:05,290 --> 00:41:06,591
I don't get it, you know?

803
00:41:06,591 --> 00:41:11,674
And so, I mean, again, my family, we have
solar and home batteries and we have seen

804
00:41:11,674 --> 00:41:17,298
the benefit from that even here in Oregon
where we're not exactly a solar haven, but

805
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:19,020
it really works well.

806
00:41:19,020 --> 00:41:23,523
And we don't have to think about, if I
could augment what I've done with my home

807
00:41:23,523 --> 00:41:26,725
batteries by going further with my car,

808
00:41:27,066 --> 00:41:29,426
I would totally say, yeah, that's a cool
added feature.

809
00:41:29,426 --> 00:41:30,766
I'd be down to that.

810
00:41:30,767 --> 00:41:35,628
But having it be like the binary of it's
either this or that, I think giving

811
00:41:35,628 --> 00:41:38,029
consumers some flexibility on that is
going to be important in the long run,

812
00:41:38,029 --> 00:41:40,889
because I don't think people are just
going to say, I've plugged in my EV, and

813
00:41:40,889 --> 00:41:44,810
if you want to suck power out of it, you
know, hey, have at it.

814
00:41:44,810 --> 00:41:47,271
I just don't see how people are going to
sign up for that immediately.

815
00:41:47,271 --> 00:41:47,671
I just don't.

816
00:41:47,671 --> 00:41:54,513
Yeah, and I think this is true about a lot
of different things when it comes to EVs

817
00:41:54,513 --> 00:41:55,393
right now.

818
00:41:56,734 --> 00:41:58,914
especially thought this about the whole
V2G thing.

819
00:41:58,914 --> 00:42:02,895
Maybe it can be the last thing we say
about it, but it reminds me of kind of

820
00:42:02,895 --> 00:42:06,096
like Windows versus Mac in the nineties.

821
00:42:06,096 --> 00:42:10,637
And you obviously would see like those
comparison charts, usually by some company

822
00:42:10,637 --> 00:42:13,258
that had a Windows computer they were
selling about where it was different and

823
00:42:13,258 --> 00:42:15,039
the functionality of future thing.

824
00:42:15,359 --> 00:42:19,880
And visually that looks good, but it's not
like practical for what people are using.

825
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,721
And I think the big part of it too is, and
then actually you saw this the same with

826
00:42:23,721 --> 00:42:25,441
iOS versus Android where

827
00:42:25,566 --> 00:42:28,247
Apple's making all the money off their
computers and their hardware and it's,

828
00:42:28,247 --> 00:42:30,008
people aren't really buying the hardware.

829
00:42:30,008 --> 00:42:32,769
They're buying the functionality and the
software elements.

830
00:42:32,789 --> 00:42:40,273
So X companies can try and compete on like
different function sets.

831
00:42:40,273 --> 00:42:44,796
And then you can say, hey, this ABC
company has function set that one, two,

832
00:42:44,796 --> 00:42:46,717
three car company doesn't have.

833
00:42:47,497 --> 00:42:48,998
And it's just not a really good sell.

834
00:42:48,998 --> 00:42:52,960
Or I mean, it might work, but it's really
just strong long-term, not a very strong

835
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:53,380
argument.

836
00:42:53,380 --> 00:42:54,681
I just feel like,

837
00:42:56,622 --> 00:42:58,523
And then there's the whole thing about the
battery warranty.

838
00:42:58,523 --> 00:43:01,085
How many times do you charge it if you're
using it from the hat?

839
00:43:01,085 --> 00:43:01,985
I don't know.

840
00:43:02,086 --> 00:43:06,709
No, so the way I've finally- This goes
down a long rabbit hole of- Well, but it's

841
00:43:06,709 --> 00:43:10,772
a big end to your point, the listeners
that you have for your podcast and folks

842
00:43:10,772 --> 00:43:13,914
in this space, I think we all need to be
very honest to ourselves about what we're

843
00:43:13,914 --> 00:43:14,454
talking about.

844
00:43:14,454 --> 00:43:18,537
And I finally have said to folks in the
energy sector that we partner with, I

845
00:43:18,537 --> 00:43:22,179
think there are ways to walk people into
the Vita X opportunity.

846
00:43:22,279 --> 00:43:25,681
I think that at the end of the day, what
we're talking about is,

847
00:43:25,686 --> 00:43:29,528
you know, V to H, vehicle to home, vehicle
to V to L, vehicle to load, vehicle to

848
00:43:29,528 --> 00:43:33,650
grid, you know, V to G, and even V to V,
vehicle to vehicle, if you wanted to get

849
00:43:33,650 --> 00:43:34,110
cute with it.

850
00:43:34,110 --> 00:43:35,591
And it's a thing you can do.

851
00:43:35,731 --> 00:43:39,854
But I think that what we finally landed on
for how we explain it to people in this

852
00:43:39,854 --> 00:43:42,956
space for how they should be thinking
strategically about consumer engagement

853
00:43:42,956 --> 00:43:46,498
is, right now no one has visibility into
anything.

854
00:43:46,498 --> 00:43:47,358
Like that's the thing.

855
00:43:47,358 --> 00:43:51,821
If you wanna go all the way to the step
of, we wanna control this thing fully.

856
00:43:51,821 --> 00:43:53,661
It's like, okay, well right now you've got
nothing.

857
00:43:53,866 --> 00:43:54,747
People aren't listening to you.

858
00:43:54,747 --> 00:43:55,427
They're not paying attention.

859
00:43:55,427 --> 00:43:59,991
They're not giving you information at a
minimum You need visibility into where our

860
00:43:59,991 --> 00:44:04,435
EVs located so that at a minimum you can
be doing basic homework around What are

861
00:44:04,435 --> 00:44:08,238
you doing to again your the grid around
that area?

862
00:44:08,238 --> 00:44:11,541
And then with that visibility you can also
get a sense for how many of those vehicles

863
00:44:11,541 --> 00:44:15,805
are actually V to X capable So how many
how many assets are there out in the

864
00:44:15,805 --> 00:44:16,565
field?

865
00:44:16,565 --> 00:44:20,409
Then from there the next step after
visibility is influence the best you can

866
00:44:20,409 --> 00:44:21,746
ever beg for

867
00:44:21,746 --> 00:44:24,447
is we'd like to influence your behavior
somehow.

868
00:44:24,447 --> 00:44:29,869
That means either A, we would like to have
you not charge at certain times to help us

869
00:44:29,869 --> 00:44:34,171
manage load, or when you're plugged in,
we'd like to maybe, you know, stop your

870
00:44:34,171 --> 00:44:35,711
charge or pull some power off.

871
00:44:35,711 --> 00:44:40,914
But the moment you go from that, you go
from influence into actual control.

872
00:44:40,914 --> 00:44:45,215
And the moment you're having control, that
means that consumers have to say, I'm

873
00:44:45,215 --> 00:44:49,517
signing up for this, that you can actually
control my destiny about how my car is

874
00:44:49,517 --> 00:44:50,230
filled up.

875
00:44:50,230 --> 00:44:51,430
That's a big step.

876
00:44:51,430 --> 00:44:53,291
The value proposition has to be very real.

877
00:44:53,291 --> 00:44:58,493
And after control is fully managed, like
it's just automated and that people just

878
00:44:58,493 --> 00:45:01,074
plug in and they don't have to think, you
don't have to think it's just great.

879
00:45:01,074 --> 00:45:03,915
And to your point, boy, that's a lot of
software.

880
00:45:04,035 --> 00:45:07,737
Like that's a lot of the right things
communicating the right way that are also

881
00:45:07,737 --> 00:45:12,999
built off of a value proposition that as
our conversation is, I think is showing,

882
00:45:13,039 --> 00:45:15,300
it's built on some pretty shaky ground.

883
00:45:15,380 --> 00:45:18,601
So I think- And it's using infrastructure
that's pretty damn old.

884
00:45:18,838 --> 00:45:22,319
There's that I'm still amazed that more
utilities aren't offering up after the

885
00:45:22,319 --> 00:45:25,001
experience we had here with our solar and
batteries here in Oregon.

886
00:45:25,081 --> 00:45:28,523
I'm thinking if we're, if we're talking
about building more power plants, I sort

887
00:45:28,523 --> 00:45:31,965
of got, there should just be a subsidized
program for, okay, if your, if your roof

888
00:45:31,965 --> 00:45:38,728
has some decent sun access solar and some
home batteries, we've been 60% off grid in

889
00:45:38,728 --> 00:45:40,269
the last two years in Oregon.

890
00:45:40,269 --> 00:45:41,630
That's bunkers.

891
00:45:41,630 --> 00:45:42,791
Yeah, that's crazy.

892
00:45:42,791 --> 00:45:44,452
And it's like, why are we building more
power plants?

893
00:45:44,452 --> 00:45:48,142
We could be offsetting so much of this
load with like, Hey, you have

894
00:45:48,142 --> 00:45:50,943
It's just solar and some home batteries,
and you're good to go.

895
00:45:50,943 --> 00:45:53,705
But then it turns into, well, what if we
just use their car?

896
00:45:53,705 --> 00:45:55,506
And I'm just over there going, oh, no.

897
00:45:56,187 --> 00:45:58,689
But I think there's already been so many
cool pilot.

898
00:45:58,689 --> 00:46:03,212
I mean, yeah, this is actually what I
think is way more fascinating is virtual

899
00:46:03,212 --> 00:46:04,372
power plants.

900
00:46:04,793 --> 00:46:10,697
And obviously, a huge software component
to that, but much more impressive as to

901
00:46:10,697 --> 00:46:11,938
what can be done.

902
00:46:11,938 --> 00:46:16,180
And it's actually already working around,
especially kind of what you're talking

903
00:46:16,180 --> 00:46:17,901
about, home use

904
00:46:18,114 --> 00:46:21,994
being able when there's either a power
outage or the potential for a brownout

905
00:46:22,035 --> 00:46:26,416
using software that's already available in
the technology to mitigate that and to

906
00:46:26,416 --> 00:46:27,536
kind of minimize those issues.

907
00:46:27,536 --> 00:46:29,097
And I completely agree with you.

908
00:46:29,097 --> 00:46:33,558
I think there are other people and maybe
other interests that have kind of pushed

909
00:46:33,558 --> 00:46:34,758
back on that.

910
00:46:34,798 --> 00:46:40,080
But as far as like a practical, and I
think what most people are more likely to

911
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,821
experience first, like the whole concept
of having just solar and batteries that

912
00:46:43,821 --> 00:46:46,801
are subsidized by your utility.

913
00:46:46,994 --> 00:46:53,319
I think is much more likely to catch on
and be at least financially much more

914
00:46:53,319 --> 00:46:57,563
approachable than the current status of
using your car as a big battery to backup

915
00:46:57,563 --> 00:46:58,484
your house.

916
00:46:58,484 --> 00:47:02,347
It's then it turns into who owns the
asset, who's managing it, et cetera, et

917
00:47:02,347 --> 00:47:02,927
cetera, you know?

918
00:47:02,927 --> 00:47:03,308
Right.

919
00:47:03,308 --> 00:47:07,772
I just, I'm, the thing of it, it always
reminds me of that quote from Jurassic

920
00:47:07,772 --> 00:47:10,754
Park when they're all sitting there having
lunch and he's like, your scientists were

921
00:47:10,754 --> 00:47:13,777
so preoccupied wondering if they could,
they didn't stop to think if they should.

922
00:47:13,797 --> 00:47:13,997
Yes.

923
00:47:13,997 --> 00:47:14,757
You know?

924
00:47:15,034 --> 00:47:20,459
And I've said that jokingly to some
colleagues in our industry because we, and

925
00:47:20,459 --> 00:47:22,801
there's a fever pitch around some of this
stuff too.

926
00:47:22,801 --> 00:47:24,062
The promise of something.

927
00:47:24,062 --> 00:47:28,926
I mean, we saw it happen with autonomy and
that bubble burst.

928
00:47:29,046 --> 00:47:33,050
We saw it happening sort of with charging
all of a sudden, a bunch of SPACs and EV

929
00:47:33,050 --> 00:47:34,271
SPACs had happened.

930
00:47:34,271 --> 00:47:35,652
Those kind of fizzled.

931
00:47:35,652 --> 00:47:38,494
Now we're having this, well, what if the
energy is controlled a certain way?

932
00:47:38,494 --> 00:47:42,277
And I just look at all these things, I'm
thinking, okay, brass tacks.

933
00:47:42,510 --> 00:47:46,995
What is it we need people to engage with
us on and how do we need to help them have

934
00:47:46,995 --> 00:47:49,457
and lead a quality life?

935
00:47:49,518 --> 00:47:52,862
And there's an energy aspect to that in a
big way that they haven't thought about

936
00:47:52,862 --> 00:47:53,583
before.

937
00:47:53,583 --> 00:47:59,829
So it's getting them to think about it,
but then also not asking too much of them.

938
00:47:59,974 --> 00:48:05,218
And I think that the influence piece of if
you invite them in and say, this is, this

939
00:48:05,218 --> 00:48:07,339
is your, you choose your own adventure.

940
00:48:07,339 --> 00:48:10,622
If you have a car that has a big battery
on it, we'd love to have you involved in

941
00:48:10,622 --> 00:48:13,724
these programs because here's the value it
can bring to you.

942
00:48:13,724 --> 00:48:17,787
And also potentially to, you know, other
aspects of, you know, your neighborhood or

943
00:48:17,787 --> 00:48:21,810
God knows what I mean, but then you start
to walk that line of altruism that most

944
00:48:21,810 --> 00:48:25,873
people kind of go, I'm not saying this,
but, uh, no.

945
00:48:26,982 --> 00:48:29,383
And that happens all the time.

946
00:48:29,383 --> 00:48:31,724
So right.

947
00:48:31,724 --> 00:48:34,425
And that's, and I think we've kind of
touched on a lot of it.

948
00:48:34,425 --> 00:48:39,848
I mean, if you go to the Chargeway
website, obviously a big portion of it is,

949
00:48:39,848 --> 00:48:41,589
talks about utilities.

950
00:48:42,209 --> 00:48:44,830
And obviously you've kind of had that
experience and exposure talking with about

951
00:48:44,830 --> 00:48:45,130
this.

952
00:48:45,130 --> 00:48:49,312
Is there anything that you can share that
you've done or you're working with

953
00:48:49,312 --> 00:48:51,833
utilities now that is...

954
00:48:52,206 --> 00:48:55,829
kind of what we're talking about or has it
been mostly around kind of the, I mean, it

955
00:48:55,829 --> 00:49:00,074
sounds like a large part of this anyways,
education, but providing the education

956
00:49:00,074 --> 00:49:06,081
through beacons or the charge way app for
X utility, or is it starting to kind of go

957
00:49:06,081 --> 00:49:08,303
beyond that or is it kind of really does?

958
00:49:08,303 --> 00:49:11,727
Well, I think it's still as much as you,
me and everyone else that's probably

959
00:49:11,727 --> 00:49:12,687
listening.

960
00:49:12,808 --> 00:49:14,349
We all talk about this all the time.

961
00:49:14,366 --> 00:49:19,129
Again, we're a very small segment of the
marketplace and it's just the population.

962
00:49:19,129 --> 00:49:23,333
We have done a lot of work with utilities
on helping them figure out where to

963
00:49:23,333 --> 00:49:26,435
position, how to explain the value of
their programs.

964
00:49:27,096 --> 00:49:31,319
We hear it very often where maybe it's a
level two program or if you sign up for

965
00:49:31,319 --> 00:49:34,302
this level two home charging program, we
will give you X rebate.

966
00:49:34,302 --> 00:49:36,443
And what is the hope of that program?

967
00:49:36,443 --> 00:49:39,410
Well, we want you to buy this charger
because it's managed.

968
00:49:39,410 --> 00:49:43,711
So we can do some testing around how we
can throttle your charge or turn it off or

969
00:49:43,711 --> 00:49:45,451
and so And that's the thing.

970
00:49:45,451 --> 00:49:47,932
It's a little bit of a it's kind of bait
and switchy, right?

971
00:49:47,932 --> 00:49:52,094
It's like we'll just do this thing for
free and in the fine print it says we are

972
00:49:52,094 --> 00:49:56,315
going to potentially turn off your charger
um a friend of a friend of mine in los

973
00:49:56,315 --> 00:50:00,516
angeles, uh, was telling me a story about
one of his neighbors who Like they bought

974
00:50:00,516 --> 00:50:04,517
a nest thermostat through a utility
program not realizing that

975
00:50:04,526 --> 00:50:08,489
Oh yeah, we will shut your AC off if the
grid gets too stressed.

976
00:50:08,509 --> 00:50:11,531
And he was flipping out over it and they
were talking about it.

977
00:50:11,531 --> 00:50:13,073
And he said, yeah, but that's what you
signed up for.

978
00:50:13,073 --> 00:50:15,815
He's like, no, I thought I was just
getting the rebate for a thermostat.

979
00:50:15,815 --> 00:50:19,057
I didn't realize they're going to make my
house too hot to be sitting in.

980
00:50:19,118 --> 00:50:23,602
You know, so that, that part of it is what
we keep talking to any utility we talk to

981
00:50:23,602 --> 00:50:28,165
is about be very thoughtful around what
we're actually asking of people.

982
00:50:28,165 --> 00:50:31,708
Right now they don't think about
electricity and energy virtually at all.

983
00:50:31,708 --> 00:50:33,369
We've had very.

984
00:50:33,606 --> 00:50:39,128
simple to use and frankly cheap to access
energy for a century that has made our

985
00:50:39,128 --> 00:50:40,749
modern life what it is.

986
00:50:40,809 --> 00:50:44,891
But this new element of you need to
understand how electricity works in your

987
00:50:44,891 --> 00:50:48,473
life, whether that's your home or maybe
your motor to fuel your mode of

988
00:50:48,473 --> 00:50:52,275
transportation, we have to be very
thoughtful around again, what is that

989
00:50:52,275 --> 00:50:56,797
incumbent experience they've had and what
are they used to and

990
00:50:57,046 --> 00:51:00,648
We're never going to get there by making
them become electrical or mechanical

991
00:51:00,648 --> 00:51:05,071
engineers to understand the value of Why
we're pulling X amount of kilowatt hour

992
00:51:05,071 --> 00:51:06,212
off their battery.

993
00:51:06,212 --> 00:51:10,594
It's just not gonna happen So yeah, I mean
it's not to go too deep and it's I mean

994
00:51:10,594 --> 00:51:14,177
that that's very spot-on Especially when
you start time out of EVs because then you

995
00:51:14,177 --> 00:51:15,897
have so many variables

996
00:51:15,990 --> 00:51:21,234
but you look at how so many different
utilities and especially counties and

997
00:51:21,234 --> 00:51:24,797
different cities are really pushing for
the electrification of home appliances

998
00:51:24,797 --> 00:51:26,818
versus like natural gas and others.

999
00:51:26,819 --> 00:51:31,202
And even that has such a educational
barrier to understand like, well, this is,

1000
00:51:31,202 --> 00:51:33,364
I've always used natural gas, good or bad.

1001
00:51:34,405 --> 00:51:39,809
And then I think that's facing so many
headwinds to then try and throw on the EV

1002
00:51:39,809 --> 00:51:41,331
component and how all this works.

1003
00:51:41,331 --> 00:51:43,773
And then- You can't get them to switch
their oven.

1004
00:51:43,773 --> 00:51:44,973
Yeah, exactly.

1005
00:51:45,258 --> 00:51:47,098
You're asking them to do that and then
back up your house?

1006
00:51:47,098 --> 00:51:48,458
Hi, Rad.

1007
00:51:48,458 --> 00:51:50,139
This has sounded a little far-fetched.

1008
00:51:50,139 --> 00:51:52,400
And there's political ramifications to it.

1009
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:58,461
And the fact that electricity has become
politicized is bonkers, but it's where we

1010
00:51:58,461 --> 00:51:59,181
are.

1011
00:51:59,642 --> 00:52:03,283
And I think that that's a big thing that
should be really, again, we should be

1012
00:52:03,283 --> 00:52:05,283
paying attention to how did that happen.

1013
00:52:05,403 --> 00:52:10,305
And with regard to, again, the
conversations we have with utilities, we

1014
00:52:10,305 --> 00:52:12,694
have programs where we have worked to
help.

1015
00:52:12,694 --> 00:52:17,336
position and promote the value of these
programs with regard to how does that look

1016
00:52:17,336 --> 00:52:18,436
inside of the chargeway beacon?

1017
00:52:18,436 --> 00:52:22,278
How can a sales rep at a showroom see
value?

1018
00:52:22,278 --> 00:52:28,421
And nine times out of 10, it's, hey, if
you provide information to our customer,

1019
00:52:28,421 --> 00:52:31,662
and this is the utility saying this, we'd
love to work with your dealership on how

1020
00:52:31,662 --> 00:52:33,923
we can give you some benefits around those
programs.

1021
00:52:34,063 --> 00:52:36,685
And that's where you have to help create
relationships between stakeholders that

1022
00:52:36,685 --> 00:52:38,445
haven't really worked together before.

1023
00:52:38,786 --> 00:52:44,672
And, um, and, but the automakers are kind
of catching wind of, oh, it's a, it's,

1024
00:52:44,672 --> 00:52:46,034
it's a holistic process.

1025
00:52:46,034 --> 00:52:50,198
So we'll just roll in your level two
charging install when you buy the car.

1026
00:52:50,339 --> 00:52:54,743
That undermines any level two program from
utility at the showroom.

1027
00:52:54,804 --> 00:52:55,084
Yeah.

1028
00:52:55,084 --> 00:52:56,666
And so there's those challenges.

1029
00:52:56,666 --> 00:53:00,129
Um, but I mean, we've got a variety of
different things we've touched on.

1030
00:53:00,230 --> 00:53:01,690
with utility programs.

1031
00:53:01,950 --> 00:53:07,393
One, we have a program we're launching
with Austin Energy starting in Q1, Q2 of

1032
00:53:07,393 --> 00:53:08,434
this coming year.

1033
00:53:08,434 --> 00:53:09,254
Oh, cool, congrats.

1034
00:53:09,514 --> 00:53:14,237
It's solely focused on how we can give
energy information to drivers in the

1035
00:53:14,237 --> 00:53:18,019
Chargeway mobile app, and how is it
related to their lifestyle.

1036
00:53:18,099 --> 00:53:22,021
Because if they are a homeowner, it's a
different type of value proposition than

1037
00:53:22,021 --> 00:53:23,141
if they're not.

1038
00:53:23,206 --> 00:53:26,629
And what are these programs from a utility
like Austin Energy?

1039
00:53:26,629 --> 00:53:30,893
And how can we showcase the value of that
to each of the users that we have based on

1040
00:53:30,893 --> 00:53:33,696
the fact that we're already trying to
create a tailored experience for them.

1041
00:53:33,696 --> 00:53:35,958
And that's the value they get out of using
Chargeway.

1042
00:53:35,958 --> 00:53:40,462
So it's about creating a personal,
authentic relationship with your customers

1043
00:53:40,462 --> 00:53:44,606
as it relates to energy and making sure
that the ecosystem you're having them live

1044
00:53:44,606 --> 00:53:46,468
within has answers for them.

1045
00:53:46,468 --> 00:53:47,942
Because if they have to keep.

1046
00:53:47,942 --> 00:53:51,523
jumping out to find solutions, or if
they're given information that feels

1047
00:53:51,523 --> 00:53:55,445
misleading, as we've discussed and we've
seen from various stakeholders, well, then

1048
00:53:55,445 --> 00:53:57,345
you just immediately lose trust.

1049
00:53:57,425 --> 00:54:00,447
And that's a big part of what we're
talking about is building trust with the

1050
00:54:00,447 --> 00:54:02,187
public around electrification.

1051
00:54:04,268 --> 00:54:08,750
Yeah, I mean, I feel like The last hour
already we have.

1052
00:54:09,370 --> 00:54:13,772
I mean, there's so many different areas
that we've discussed that could easily be

1053
00:54:13,772 --> 00:54:16,113
their own podcast episodes and I don't
know.

1054
00:54:16,233 --> 00:54:17,133
I feel like

1055
00:54:17,358 --> 00:54:21,181
I really enjoyed talking with him at
because sometimes I feel very optimistic

1056
00:54:21,181 --> 00:54:24,744
and I feel reminded about everything that
also bothers me.

1057
00:54:24,744 --> 00:54:28,107
But at least I know there's someone else
that knows and understands these problems.

1058
00:54:28,107 --> 00:54:32,150
Well, let's yeah, let's try to keep it
optimistic.

1059
00:54:32,150 --> 00:54:35,372
So well, that's not to say there's not
great things happening.

1060
00:54:35,372 --> 00:54:37,334
For sure.

1061
00:54:37,334 --> 00:54:41,217
The sales volumes of EVs, the joke, it's
all going in the right direction.

1062
00:54:41,217 --> 00:54:43,299
Yeah, it's happening.

1063
00:54:43,299 --> 00:54:47,021
I think that there's reason to be
pragmatic.

1064
00:54:47,102 --> 00:54:48,342
around pragmatic.

1065
00:54:48,342 --> 00:54:49,343
That's yeah.

1066
00:54:49,403 --> 00:54:49,843
Yeah.

1067
00:54:49,843 --> 00:54:53,145
And it's just, it's just saying what's
happening in this conversation and where

1068
00:54:53,145 --> 00:54:55,326
are we seeing sales volumes going to?

1069
00:54:55,326 --> 00:54:57,167
We're at 8% now nationally.

1070
00:54:57,167 --> 00:55:00,649
California is at like 24% or something
like that last quarter.

1071
00:55:00,649 --> 00:55:05,192
So things are going in the direction that
electrification is, is it ain't going away

1072
00:55:05,272 --> 00:55:05,752
for sure.

1073
00:55:05,752 --> 00:55:10,895
And I, I think just, uh, I mean, those are
great examples and great numbers, but what

1074
00:55:10,895 --> 00:55:14,778
I think is so, uh, to be positive and to
kind of

1075
00:55:14,778 --> 00:55:17,240
reconfirm what we've, we've seen these
similar things happen in China.

1076
00:55:17,240 --> 00:55:20,823
And there's obviously sometimes been
different levers that different

1077
00:55:20,823 --> 00:55:26,807
governments and stuff and even public or
private companies can pull, but it seems

1078
00:55:26,807 --> 00:55:31,091
like everything we've seen, whether it's
China or Europe, a lot of these kind of

1079
00:55:31,091 --> 00:55:32,792
have been at a logarithmic scale.

1080
00:55:32,792 --> 00:55:35,895
And for a long time, everyone in the
industry has kind of said, oh, no, it's

1081
00:55:35,895 --> 00:55:36,495
not going to happen here.

1082
00:55:36,495 --> 00:55:38,577
No, no, that can't.

1083
00:55:38,577 --> 00:55:40,358
Yeah, that'll be the thing that happens in
Europe.

1084
00:55:40,358 --> 00:55:44,601
But I mean, even just in the last, I'd say
two years, let alone half year.

1085
00:55:44,654 --> 00:55:48,817
Uh, the, and there's been a little bit of
a pullback, but I think you're just seeing

1086
00:55:48,817 --> 00:55:51,339
that across the auto industry right now in
general.

1087
00:55:51,339 --> 00:55:54,802
It's not really that much of an EV
specific thing, but you're seeing all

1088
00:55:54,802 --> 00:55:58,145
those right numbers that we've seen in
other markets where it's like, no, this is

1089
00:55:58,145 --> 00:55:59,105
going to happen.

1090
00:55:59,126 --> 00:55:59,786
Maybe it's going to happen.

1091
00:55:59,786 --> 00:56:01,688
Like, okay, crap, this is actually
happening.

1092
00:56:01,688 --> 00:56:05,872
We are, we've got to get on board whether
we've wanted it to or not.

1093
00:56:05,872 --> 00:56:08,394
And I think it is obviously a really
positive thing.

1094
00:56:08,394 --> 00:56:11,957
And so I think where we're seeing
everything going is all stuff to be

1095
00:56:11,957 --> 00:56:13,177
excited for.

1096
00:56:13,322 --> 00:56:13,802
Oh my gosh.

1097
00:56:13,802 --> 00:56:15,063
And to be optimistic about it.

1098
00:56:15,063 --> 00:56:18,725
Cause I mean, for how far, for how long
I've known and kind of followed the stuff

1099
00:56:18,725 --> 00:56:23,128
you're doing, it just seems like, like I
said earlier, when Chargeway launched,

1100
00:56:23,268 --> 00:56:28,732
there was maybe the Model S, the Bolt, the
Leaf and a couple.

1101
00:56:28,732 --> 00:56:30,993
I mean, we initially introduced the idea.

1102
00:56:31,494 --> 00:56:34,396
This would have been what, 2017?

1103
00:56:35,097 --> 00:56:36,678
So there was a few more cars on the
market.

1104
00:56:36,678 --> 00:56:38,299
Yeah, there was more on the, yeah.

1105
00:56:38,299 --> 00:56:40,581
You know, but to your point, not a ton.

1106
00:56:40,581 --> 00:56:42,242
I mean, it was like maybe the i3.

1107
00:56:42,242 --> 00:56:44,463
The Fiat 500E or something.

1108
00:56:44,463 --> 00:56:45,724
A lot of them that have come and gone.

1109
00:56:45,724 --> 00:56:46,944
Right, yeah, exactly.

1110
00:56:47,985 --> 00:56:51,007
And compliance cards that are now in the
dustbin of history.

1111
00:56:51,007 --> 00:56:53,588
Yeah, collector's cards somewhere, I
guess.

1112
00:56:54,168 --> 00:56:55,249
But for sure.

1113
00:56:55,249 --> 00:56:58,871
But I think I also want to be respectful
of your time because I realize we're kind

1114
00:56:58,871 --> 00:57:01,293
of coming up almost an hour here.

1115
00:57:01,293 --> 00:57:04,995
We've talked about where the apps come,
where it's going, the things that we're

1116
00:57:04,995 --> 00:57:05,855
excited about.

1117
00:57:05,855 --> 00:57:09,597
Can you share just a few things that if
you haven't already about?

1118
00:57:10,194 --> 00:57:13,575
since you started Chargeway, things that
have kind of surprised you or you weren't

1119
00:57:13,575 --> 00:57:19,459
expecting kind of see with where you had
started and where you might see either the

1120
00:57:19,459 --> 00:57:24,161
pull from the market or just kind of the
feedback from users of the app.

1121
00:57:24,762 --> 00:57:29,984
I think one of the things that surprised
me over the last five years is I frankly

1122
00:57:29,984 --> 00:57:36,388
anticipated that the third party charging
networks would have a better understanding

1123
00:57:36,388 --> 00:57:39,609
of the role that they were going to play
in the ownership experience.

1124
00:57:39,906 --> 00:57:44,529
Um, and they would be concerned about
their brands looking like they don't care

1125
00:57:44,529 --> 00:57:47,390
about the driving and fueling experience.

1126
00:57:47,471 --> 00:57:50,873
But over time, I, you know, it just became
more obvious that because of the business

1127
00:57:50,873 --> 00:57:56,657
models that exist within EV charging and
how grants are issued and how revenue is

1128
00:57:56,657 --> 00:58:01,440
made and things like that, it just became
so obvious that it was in some cases,

1129
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:03,842
unfortunately, not about the driver.

1130
00:58:03,962 --> 00:58:09,265
And it was far more so about the
opportunity to grow the business.

1131
00:58:09,506 --> 00:58:14,547
and kind of, you know, kind of pass the
buck over to whoever was buying your

1132
00:58:14,547 --> 00:58:18,848
services to say, now it's your problem to
make sure that the charger is okay and

1133
00:58:18,848 --> 00:58:20,508
that drivers are satisfied.

1134
00:58:20,589 --> 00:58:24,510
But at face value, the way that those
programs were being sold, whether it was

1135
00:58:24,510 --> 00:58:29,851
to a policymaker, a city, I mean, a
municipality, or even a small business, it

1136
00:58:29,851 --> 00:58:34,172
always was with the promise of, no, our
charges are on all the time and it's on

1137
00:58:34,172 --> 00:58:37,353
our app and you're on our network now and
it's gonna be so great for you.

1138
00:58:37,413 --> 00:58:38,853
And I think that

1139
00:58:38,918 --> 00:58:41,899
that in the long term, like in the last
five years, especially we've seen the

1140
00:58:41,899 --> 00:58:43,179
damage it's done.

1141
00:58:43,199 --> 00:58:46,301
We've seen the articles all the time about
people saying you can't rely on these

1142
00:58:46,301 --> 00:58:47,081
things.

1143
00:58:47,701 --> 00:58:49,762
And it's unfortunate.

1144
00:58:49,762 --> 00:58:54,964
And I had far more optimism around that
for networks.

1145
00:58:54,964 --> 00:58:59,386
And frankly, Ford and other brands waving
the white flag saying, I do see it as that

1146
00:58:59,386 --> 00:59:02,667
a waving of the white flag saying, we're
switching to the Tesla connector.

1147
00:59:02,667 --> 00:59:06,029
We're just going to basically say we'd
love to tap into what you guys got because

1148
00:59:06,029 --> 00:59:07,669
you take care of it and it works.

1149
00:59:08,566 --> 00:59:13,950
to me that sent a very, very loud signal
to third party networks of you either step

1150
00:59:13,950 --> 00:59:19,695
this up or the valuation of your companies
are just gonna go, and so they're gonna

1151
00:59:19,695 --> 00:59:21,336
have to do a better job.

1152
00:59:21,577 --> 00:59:27,862
So I would say that it surprised me how
that didn't improve as I thought it would.

1153
00:59:28,844 --> 00:59:29,104
Interesting.

1154
00:59:29,104 --> 00:59:30,345
And it's unfortunate.

1155
00:59:30,505 --> 00:59:35,529
But I think within that, what we tried to
do within the Chargeway platform,

1156
00:59:35,590 --> 00:59:38,392
was to provide as much transparency as we
could to people.

1157
00:59:38,392 --> 00:59:42,755
So again, in the station finding element
of Chargeway, again, if you click on a

1158
00:59:42,755 --> 00:59:44,677
pin, you can see the details of it.

1159
00:59:44,677 --> 00:59:48,080
We always had customer support information
that you could contact for the network.

1160
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:52,583
And we always tried to tell you, it's this
network that's backing that station.

1161
00:59:52,684 --> 00:59:57,287
If it was white labeled and had branding
from gosh, who knows what all over it, we

1162
00:59:57,287 --> 01:00:00,449
would still say, if you got a problem,
this is who you call.

1163
01:00:00,646 --> 01:00:04,029
And if you want to leave a review, you
can, but if you want to report a problem,

1164
01:00:04,029 --> 01:00:07,892
you hit one button in the charge way up on
a station, it auto populates the station

1165
01:00:07,892 --> 01:00:10,194
information in the end to the body of the
email.

1166
01:00:10,194 --> 01:00:13,077
It sends it directly to the customer
support team from that network.

1167
01:00:13,077 --> 01:00:15,439
All you got to do is add your notes and
hit send.

1168
01:00:15,539 --> 01:00:20,043
So this is, these are ways that we've
always been trying to help drivers have a

1169
01:00:20,043 --> 01:00:21,905
voice in this space.

1170
01:00:21,905 --> 01:00:22,398
And

1171
01:00:22,398 --> 01:00:24,939
And obviously there's other, there's other
ways they can go about doing it on social

1172
01:00:24,939 --> 01:00:28,961
media and others, but that's something
that I think has definitely made an impact

1173
01:00:28,961 --> 01:00:33,084
on kind of adding a level of honesty from
some, you know, some players that needed

1174
01:00:33,084 --> 01:00:34,084
to improve upon things.

1175
01:00:34,084 --> 01:00:36,746
Um, but yeah, we'll see how that plays
out.

1176
01:00:36,746 --> 01:00:41,168
But I think we've always looked at it and
said, if we can showcase where you can go

1177
01:00:41,168 --> 01:00:44,670
and what your expectation and experience
of what your experience will be.

1178
01:00:44,770 --> 01:00:48,272
Then it's on the, it's on the companies to
live up to that on behalf of the driver.

1179
01:00:48,272 --> 01:00:50,513
And I think we're going to see that some
of those.

1180
01:00:50,706 --> 01:00:54,647
uh, both auto brands and networks are
going to survive better than others.

1181
01:00:54,647 --> 01:00:56,668
And, you know, I, I don't know.

1182
01:00:56,668 --> 01:00:59,309
I mean, again, this, there's a lot of, you
know, these on the market now, I mean,

1183
01:00:59,309 --> 01:01:02,711
rewind five years and we've quintupled how
many are on the market.

1184
01:01:02,711 --> 01:01:04,431
I would, I'd be willing to bet.

1185
01:01:04,592 --> 01:01:07,332
And we've also quintupled the amount of
networks out there.

1186
01:01:08,373 --> 01:01:09,173
Unfortunately.

1187
01:01:09,173 --> 01:01:10,794
And fortunately, yes, that is true.

1188
01:01:10,794 --> 01:01:14,936
That those have also increased going to
your point about reliability around those.

1189
01:01:14,936 --> 01:01:19,157
I think, uh, and what is fascinating, uh,
with.

1190
01:01:19,382 --> 01:01:22,804
going back to that conversation we had
earlier about the expectation of brands

1191
01:01:22,804 --> 01:01:26,427
and what you know, I'm like, Oh, I've
always bought brand X.

1192
01:01:26,427 --> 01:01:28,889
So I'm just going to buy brand X's EV.

1193
01:01:29,029 --> 01:01:33,933
And there might still be some areas where
they excel in, but it's very clear that

1194
01:01:34,013 --> 01:01:38,957
you're getting new or traditional carton,
not only just new startups and new players

1195
01:01:38,957 --> 01:01:45,121
in the space, but especially brands that
have kind of been, I think.

1196
01:01:45,134 --> 01:01:48,096
traditionally viewed as maybe like a lower
tier brand, but they've seen

1197
01:01:48,096 --> 01:01:51,059
electrification as kind of their
opportunity to really change that and get

1198
01:01:51,059 --> 01:01:51,420
a hold of that.

1199
01:01:51,420 --> 01:01:56,424
And of course, probably the biggest one
people think of are the key and Hyundai,

1200
01:01:56,424 --> 01:02:00,888
where they were kind of lower cost
competitive vehicles that were kind of

1201
01:02:01,369 --> 01:02:04,952
didn't offer a lot around traditional
amenities.

1202
01:02:05,093 --> 01:02:09,537
And they were already kind of in the
process of changing that expectation or

1203
01:02:09,537 --> 01:02:10,477
impression.

1204
01:02:10,650 --> 01:02:13,532
and then really just latched on to
electrification and have now kind of

1205
01:02:13,532 --> 01:02:15,454
leapfrogged a lot of others in the space.

1206
01:02:15,454 --> 01:02:19,898
So I think it's still very early days
between not just the automakers and the

1207
01:02:19,898 --> 01:02:24,442
startups and then the charging
infrastructure, but there's still so much

1208
01:02:24,442 --> 01:02:28,585
that, I mean, it's crazy how much has
changed since the last time we had you on

1209
01:02:28,585 --> 01:02:32,889
the podcast, so I can't wait, and
hopefully it'll be sooner than the last

1210
01:02:32,889 --> 01:02:36,973
time that we get to talk with you soon
about some of these changes and what we're

1211
01:02:36,973 --> 01:02:37,713
seeing in the space.

1212
01:02:37,713 --> 01:02:38,353
But...

1213
01:02:38,434 --> 01:02:42,255
One kind of final question I like to ask
people, I think we've also touched on a

1214
01:02:42,255 --> 01:02:44,875
little bit, but just to kind of get it out
there.

1215
01:02:44,875 --> 01:02:53,578
One question we ask everyone is, in your
experience, to you, what needs to either

1216
01:02:53,578 --> 01:02:59,619
be done by government or maybe private,
what could be done really between any of

1217
01:02:59,619 --> 01:03:05,321
these that would have the biggest impact,
you think, in moving EV adoption and EV

1218
01:03:05,521 --> 01:03:07,241
charging infrastructure forward?

1219
01:03:08,458 --> 01:03:09,778
That's a big question.

1220
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:15,963
I will say I still, you know, I'm on the
broken record on it.

1221
01:03:15,963 --> 01:03:19,326
But now that we're hearing the
conversation from dealership saying, you

1222
01:03:19,326 --> 01:03:23,388
know, we've got all these cars stacking up
on our showroom lots and we're not happy

1223
01:03:23,388 --> 01:03:26,130
about it and people are wanting these
things.

1224
01:03:26,651 --> 01:03:29,753
The moment I saw that 4000 auto dealers
had written a letter to the Biden

1225
01:03:29,753 --> 01:03:35,097
administration saying we need you to pause
on your EV mandates and they are very

1226
01:03:35,097 --> 01:03:36,217
adamant about this.

1227
01:03:36,606 --> 01:03:39,306
I immediately just asked the question that
I asked, you know, years ago when we

1228
01:03:39,306 --> 01:03:42,767
launched Chargeway, which is why would
anybody go to a dealership to buy a car

1229
01:03:42,767 --> 01:03:46,488
that runs on electricity as a fuel if they
don't know anything about electricity as a

1230
01:03:46,488 --> 01:03:47,288
fuel?

1231
01:03:47,689 --> 01:03:48,369
Why would they do that?

1232
01:03:48,369 --> 01:03:49,649
Right.

1233
01:03:49,649 --> 01:03:51,049
They don't know what they don't know.

1234
01:03:51,170 --> 01:03:56,091
And we've seen countless campaigns around
EVs are here and let's get more butts in

1235
01:03:56,091 --> 01:04:01,112
seats and oh gosh, there's Super Bowl ads
that you just can't you couldn't miss an

1236
01:04:01,112 --> 01:04:02,833
EV ad a few years ago, right?

1237
01:04:02,833 --> 01:04:03,733
And that's all it was.

1238
01:04:03,733 --> 01:04:05,413
And I just kept watching that thinking.

1239
01:04:05,706 --> 01:04:06,046
Yep.

1240
01:04:06,046 --> 01:04:10,508
And if you go out and go to any bar or any
restaurant tonight in any town, you're in

1241
01:04:10,508 --> 01:04:14,791
America and say, if every gas station
closed tomorrow, how would you use your

1242
01:04:14,791 --> 01:04:15,611
car?

1243
01:04:16,151 --> 01:04:18,653
Because everyone would say, I couldn't.

1244
01:04:19,253 --> 01:04:22,375
But if we, if we were doing it the right
way with messaging, so we're talking about

1245
01:04:22,375 --> 01:04:26,517
from the federal government or wherever,
if we were doing it right with messaging,

1246
01:04:26,517 --> 01:04:29,859
the right response from the public because
if they had the right exposure to the

1247
01:04:29,859 --> 01:04:32,841
information correctly, they'd say, well,
it wouldn't really matter.

1248
01:04:32,841 --> 01:04:34,321
I guess I could just drive an electric
car.

1249
01:04:35,066 --> 01:04:39,967
Because right now people equate cars to
gasoline and the reason why we have brands

1250
01:04:39,967 --> 01:04:43,628
and again This is Ford and other brands
that have said we've got some vehicles

1251
01:04:43,628 --> 01:04:48,509
that are starting to stack up here they
have an uphill battle because the type of

1252
01:04:48,509 --> 01:04:53,611
customer that they've cultivated for the
last 20 years is not your ideal EV buyer

1253
01:04:53,611 --> 01:04:58,632
and Right, that's just that's a part of
the game and they are trying to pivot and

1254
01:04:58,632 --> 01:05:03,082
it's not the easiest thing in the world I
think combine that with the fact that

1255
01:05:03,082 --> 01:05:07,805
you have a lack of understanding around
what they can trust and what they even

1256
01:05:07,805 --> 01:05:11,727
know about there's walk down the street
every listeners podcast I invited this

1257
01:05:11,727 --> 01:05:15,890
next time your holiday party whenever you
hear this ask everybody in the room that

1258
01:05:15,890 --> 01:05:20,153
is not related to the industry if you're
an electric fuel for your car you know

1259
01:05:20,153 --> 01:05:24,076
about it or just say if every gas station
closed tomorrow how would you drive your

1260
01:05:24,076 --> 01:05:27,258
car and chances are they'd all say the
same thing which is I guess I couldn't

1261
01:05:27,258 --> 01:05:31,801
drive a car and that right there speaks to
the problem we have zero visibility to the

1262
01:05:31,801 --> 01:05:32,478
public.

1263
01:05:32,478 --> 01:05:34,078
around that they have a fuel choice.

1264
01:05:34,078 --> 01:05:39,381
And I think my hair is gonna get grayer
over time because I keep beating this

1265
01:05:39,381 --> 01:05:40,242
drum.

1266
01:05:40,342 --> 01:05:43,063
And I don't know why it's not more obvious
to everybody.

1267
01:05:43,063 --> 01:05:46,665
I mean, you can make the right ecosystem
like Tesla has, but man, you've got to

1268
01:05:46,665 --> 01:05:48,306
control it all.

1269
01:05:48,446 --> 01:05:49,967
And they've done it really well.

1270
01:05:49,967 --> 01:05:53,389
And we just don't have that luxury to
offer to the public from every product

1271
01:05:53,389 --> 01:05:53,950
line.

1272
01:05:53,950 --> 01:05:57,572
So that would be my hope is we can get
more honest to ourselves around the fact

1273
01:05:57,572 --> 01:06:01,393
that buying a car has always meant two
products, cars and gas.

1274
01:06:01,490 --> 01:06:02,691
and we've removed gas.

1275
01:06:02,691 --> 01:06:06,894
And so we have to talk about electricity
as a trusted fuel source and not get over

1276
01:06:06,894 --> 01:06:11,398
our skis and start asking Vita X questions
about, hey, can we tap into your car and

1277
01:06:11,398 --> 01:06:12,879
borrow some kilowatt hours?

1278
01:06:12,879 --> 01:06:18,183
Because people are very far away from
having that conversation.

1279
01:06:18,183 --> 01:06:21,286
I think that is a great place to end it on
for a couple of reasons.

1280
01:06:21,286 --> 01:06:24,087
One, clearly the battery in my camera has
died.

1281
01:06:24,188 --> 01:06:29,993
But two, I think that is such a great
summary of what the challenges that the

1282
01:06:29,993 --> 01:06:31,134
industry is facing

1283
01:06:31,134 --> 01:06:35,455
I think once again, what you and
Chargedway have done such a good job of

1284
01:06:35,635 --> 01:06:40,377
hoping to like get people at least a line
around to ask the right question and then

1285
01:06:40,377 --> 01:06:42,618
provide a really clear and concise answer
to.

1286
01:06:42,618 --> 01:06:46,700
So I just want to say thank you again so
much for being back on that and looking

1287
01:06:46,700 --> 01:06:48,800
forward to talking again with you soon.

1288
01:06:48,901 --> 01:06:49,321
Definitely.

1289
01:06:49,321 --> 01:06:51,821
Well, again, thanks for the invite and
always enjoy chatting with you.