1 00:00:00,180 --> 00:00:02,280 Welcome back to the episode of the Startup Therapy Podcast. 2 00:00:02,280 --> 00:00:04,530 This is Ryan Rutan joint, as always by my 3 00:00:04,530 --> 00:00:07,440 friend, the founder, and CEO of startups.com. 4 00:00:07,830 --> 00:00:11,580 Will, Schroeder will man, they run on lots of different things 5 00:00:11,580 --> 00:00:15,420 and, uh, founders, founders have to run on a lot of optimism. 6 00:00:15,420 --> 00:00:17,970 Some might say that it, uh, it, it borders the 7 00:00:17,970 --> 00:00:19,440 line of, of delusion. 8 00:00:19,830 --> 00:00:22,320 You said something once and it was, it was something along 9 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:23,400 the lines of, you know, like. 10 00:00:23,940 --> 00:00:26,910 Firefighters run into a fire that's already 11 00:00:26,910 --> 00:00:28,530 existing and, and get out. 12 00:00:28,770 --> 00:00:31,950 Founders run in, start furnishing the lobby, 13 00:00:32,430 --> 00:00:33,930 ask if they can pay rent. 14 00:00:34,110 --> 00:00:34,500 Yeah. 15 00:00:34,620 --> 00:00:37,500 And then light the fire, which sounds delusional, 16 00:00:37,500 --> 00:00:40,260 but it's really, probably better looked at as optimism. 17 00:00:40,260 --> 00:00:43,050 But in your mind, like what's the alternative, right? 18 00:00:43,050 --> 00:00:45,390 If, if, if a founder doesn't show up. 19 00:00:45,765 --> 00:00:48,105 Full of optimism and believing that this thing can happen, 20 00:00:48,405 --> 00:00:49,695 then what are they, what? 21 00:00:49,695 --> 00:00:50,565 What would they run on 22 00:00:50,835 --> 00:00:51,375 at that point? 23 00:00:51,375 --> 00:00:53,085 They're an employee and that's an employee. 24 00:00:53,085 --> 00:00:56,145 As employee shows up and an employee is like, Hey, just tell 25 00:00:56,145 --> 00:00:57,225 me what to do and I'll do it. 26 00:00:57,645 --> 00:00:59,925 We have this weird gear. 27 00:01:00,585 --> 00:01:02,475 And, and note even has to tell us to have it. 28 00:01:02,475 --> 00:01:06,164 We just have it where we're willing to create this fantasy, 29 00:01:06,164 --> 00:01:10,215 this delusion, and live in that world, and not only live in that 30 00:01:10,215 --> 00:01:13,635 world ourselves, but convince all of these other people to 31 00:01:13,635 --> 00:01:15,015 live in that world as well. 32 00:01:15,315 --> 00:01:15,495 Yeah. 33 00:01:15,885 --> 00:01:16,095 Yep. 34 00:01:16,155 --> 00:01:16,605 Employees, 35 00:01:16,605 --> 00:01:17,955 customers, partners, stat. 36 00:01:17,955 --> 00:01:18,345 All of it. 37 00:01:18,375 --> 00:01:18,435 Yeah. 38 00:01:18,465 --> 00:01:18,945 Everybody. 39 00:01:18,945 --> 00:01:19,215 Yeah. 40 00:01:19,275 --> 00:01:20,805 You know, investors are a great one, right? 41 00:01:20,955 --> 00:01:21,195 Yeah. 42 00:01:21,225 --> 00:01:24,525 And we believe in this delusion so greatly. 43 00:01:24,645 --> 00:01:25,365 So greatly. 44 00:01:25,365 --> 00:01:26,505 Like, like religiously. 45 00:01:27,255 --> 00:01:31,035 Even though nothing around us whatsoever supports it. 46 00:01:31,515 --> 00:01:31,755 Right? 47 00:01:31,785 --> 00:01:34,035 Right now we're like, we're gonna change the world and, you 48 00:01:34,035 --> 00:01:35,865 know, build Uber, we're gonna build, you know, whatever. 49 00:01:36,255 --> 00:01:38,835 But everything around us right now is like, dude, 50 00:01:38,835 --> 00:01:40,455 you're still living in your parents' basement. 51 00:01:41,660 --> 00:01:44,475 Like, like, we don't have $500 in our checking account. 52 00:01:44,475 --> 00:01:45,494 No one wants to work here. 53 00:01:45,735 --> 00:01:48,794 This idea has never been proven, like nothing around 54 00:01:48,794 --> 00:01:52,215 us indicates that this fantasy that we have should 55 00:01:52,215 --> 00:01:54,164 inspire any level of optimism. 56 00:01:54,585 --> 00:01:54,854 Right. 57 00:01:54,860 --> 00:01:54,940 And yet. 58 00:01:55,575 --> 00:01:59,565 Our business, our what we do here is driven. 59 00:02:00,270 --> 00:02:04,350 Wholeheartedly by creating this optimism out of total 60 00:02:04,350 --> 00:02:07,110 chaos in, in many cases, like an abyss of bleakness. 61 00:02:07,770 --> 00:02:09,720 And so I thought it would be fun to unpack that. 62 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:11,459 Like, where the hell does that come from? 63 00:02:11,820 --> 00:02:12,840 Why do we have it? 64 00:02:12,870 --> 00:02:14,100 Like, is it honesty? 65 00:02:14,190 --> 00:02:15,870 You know, is is, is it honest saying I think 66 00:02:15,899 --> 00:02:16,680 something's gonna happen. 67 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:17,549 That may never happen. 68 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,970 So I think as we dig into this today, and it's a topic 69 00:02:20,970 --> 00:02:23,670 I wanna talk about for a long time, I really wanna talk 70 00:02:23,670 --> 00:02:26,100 about that, that source of. 71 00:02:26,535 --> 00:02:28,395 Optimism in, in how we even get it. 72 00:02:28,575 --> 00:02:29,565 The font of optimism. 73 00:02:29,565 --> 00:02:29,925 Yeah. 74 00:02:30,230 --> 00:02:31,605 I, I think it is interesting, you, you touched on 75 00:02:31,605 --> 00:02:33,285 something there, which is that like they're all 76 00:02:33,285 --> 00:02:34,845 sort of chaos by nature. 77 00:02:35,025 --> 00:02:37,845 Also short, I mean, maybe not by design, but by nature, right? 78 00:02:37,845 --> 00:02:40,965 Like if that chaos didn't exist, if there wasn't chaos to be 79 00:02:40,965 --> 00:02:42,615 unwound, there's no opportunity. 80 00:02:42,705 --> 00:02:43,335 Yeah, that's true. 81 00:02:43,425 --> 00:02:43,665 Right? 82 00:02:43,665 --> 00:02:45,465 Like it's already solved at that point, or it's 83 00:02:45,465 --> 00:02:46,635 not worth, worth solving. 84 00:02:46,635 --> 00:02:47,865 It's the chaos that creates it. 85 00:02:47,865 --> 00:02:50,415 I mean, I think it's important to note like startups aren't 86 00:02:50,535 --> 00:02:52,425 set on fire by accident. 87 00:02:52,740 --> 00:02:56,250 It's kind of the, uh, we light that match to start 88 00:02:56,250 --> 00:02:57,180 to power the vision, right? 89 00:02:57,180 --> 00:02:58,680 That's how we see where we're going, right? 90 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:00,780 It's the, it's the, the flames of that fire 91 00:03:00,780 --> 00:03:01,710 run toward the chaos. 92 00:03:01,740 --> 00:03:02,670 What drive us forward. 93 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,180 It reminds me of a, uh, a commercial from like in the 94 00:03:06,180 --> 00:03:09,150 eighties or nineties, and it was showing this like huge 95 00:03:09,150 --> 00:03:10,829 commotion in the distance. 96 00:03:10,829 --> 00:03:13,770 Like I think of almost like, like a, a long plane. 97 00:03:13,770 --> 00:03:16,320 And, and on the, in the distance there was like explosions and 98 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,170 all this like, like chaos, uhhuh, you saw all these 99 00:03:19,170 --> 00:03:20,520 people fleeing from it, right? 100 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:21,360 From the explosions. 101 00:03:22,065 --> 00:03:24,435 Then you saw one guy running toward it. 102 00:03:25,305 --> 00:03:25,725 Towards it. 103 00:03:25,730 --> 00:03:25,920 Yes. 104 00:03:25,920 --> 00:03:27,225 And it was the ad for the Marines, 105 00:03:27,585 --> 00:03:27,795 right? 106 00:03:27,795 --> 00:03:28,295 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 107 00:03:28,295 --> 00:03:28,605 Um, 108 00:03:28,845 --> 00:03:31,875 and it said something to, to the effect of we run toward chaos 109 00:03:31,875 --> 00:03:33,195 when everybody else runs away. 110 00:03:33,525 --> 00:03:33,825 Right? 111 00:03:33,855 --> 00:03:34,095 Yeah. 112 00:03:34,245 --> 00:03:36,495 You know, we strip out Marines there and, and, 113 00:03:36,495 --> 00:03:37,485 and insert founders. 114 00:03:37,485 --> 00:03:40,035 Now of course, it's slightly less physical present 115 00:03:40,035 --> 00:03:41,475 danger, uh, in our life. 116 00:03:41,475 --> 00:03:42,105 A hundred percent. 117 00:03:42,255 --> 00:03:43,995 But metaphor, but 118 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:45,855 exactly the same concept, right? 119 00:03:45,855 --> 00:03:45,945 Yes. 120 00:03:45,950 --> 00:03:46,080 Yes. 121 00:03:46,085 --> 00:03:47,595 The people fleeing are employees. 122 00:03:48,335 --> 00:03:48,545 Right. 123 00:03:48,545 --> 00:03:49,984 Those people are like, this is chaos. 124 00:03:49,984 --> 00:03:50,495 This is crazy. 125 00:03:50,495 --> 00:03:51,605 I'm gonna go get another job. 126 00:03:51,845 --> 00:03:53,495 And also, they're the rational people. 127 00:03:53,525 --> 00:03:54,635 Uh, in this commercial. 128 00:03:54,755 --> 00:03:58,175 The founder runs directly toward that chaos. 129 00:03:58,175 --> 00:04:00,845 Kinda like you said a moment ago with the, uh, the firefighter, 130 00:04:01,025 --> 00:04:04,025 firefighter runs into a building with the optimism that, that 131 00:04:04,025 --> 00:04:06,484 he or she's going to get out as soon as possible, right? 132 00:04:06,490 --> 00:04:06,680 Correct. 133 00:04:07,275 --> 00:04:09,285 A founder runs into a burning building and like you 134 00:04:09,285 --> 00:04:10,875 said, sets up camp, right? 135 00:04:10,875 --> 00:04:11,144 Like, yep. 136 00:04:11,144 --> 00:04:11,204 Yeah. 137 00:04:11,204 --> 00:04:11,565 This is where we're 138 00:04:11,565 --> 00:04:12,045 gonna camp. 139 00:04:12,165 --> 00:04:12,945 I'll be here for the next decade. 140 00:04:12,945 --> 00:04:13,305 It's already got a 141 00:04:13,305 --> 00:04:14,204 campfire, guys. 142 00:04:14,234 --> 00:04:14,840 Yeah, that's idea. 143 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:16,005 The campfire is falling down around us. 144 00:04:16,005 --> 00:04:16,394 That's okay. 145 00:04:16,394 --> 00:04:16,695 Exactly. 146 00:04:17,084 --> 00:04:18,885 And also pouring gasoline on it while, you know, 147 00:04:18,885 --> 00:04:19,454 uh, while they're coming. 148 00:04:19,454 --> 00:04:19,515 Yeah. 149 00:04:19,519 --> 00:04:19,680 Yeah. 150 00:04:20,565 --> 00:04:24,645 So if we start there, like, like why the hell do we even do that? 151 00:04:24,675 --> 00:04:29,565 Like, like what would possibly take a capable, potentially 152 00:04:29,565 --> 00:04:33,945 rational person and say, I'm gonna go do the, the least 153 00:04:33,945 --> 00:04:37,155 rational thing I possibly can with the, the smallest chance 154 00:04:37,155 --> 00:04:41,625 of success versus all my other options and passionately drag 155 00:04:41,685 --> 00:04:44,175 everyone I know into this burning building because I 156 00:04:44,175 --> 00:04:45,975 think something, you know, great's gonna come of it. 157 00:04:46,420 --> 00:04:48,160 That's kind of psychotic. 158 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:50,800 Like if you put it in terms like that, that way, 159 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:51,220 yes. 160 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:51,430 But 161 00:04:51,430 --> 00:04:51,610 it's 162 00:04:51,850 --> 00:04:52,330 kinda 163 00:04:52,330 --> 00:04:53,105 what we do, you know? 164 00:04:54,150 --> 00:04:55,710 I, I think it, a lot of it times it does, it 165 00:04:55,710 --> 00:04:56,580 starts with the passion. 166 00:04:56,730 --> 00:04:58,860 Uh, you marry that passion up for like, you know, wanting to 167 00:04:58,860 --> 00:05:00,630 solve that problem, wanting, make that dent in the universe. 168 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,680 You marry that up with what at least can look like, can 169 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,190 be outsized economic impact and, and financial outcomes. 170 00:05:09,030 --> 00:05:12,210 And, uh, for most of us, some desire to just be able to do 171 00:05:12,210 --> 00:05:14,580 things on our own terms and do it the way we wanted to. 172 00:05:14,580 --> 00:05:16,890 And this is one of the few places you can do that, right? 173 00:05:16,890 --> 00:05:17,070 Right. 174 00:05:17,070 --> 00:05:19,620 You can't walk into an accounting office 175 00:05:19,620 --> 00:05:20,700 and, and start a fire. 176 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:22,770 Well, you can, you just, you go to jail for it. 177 00:05:23,190 --> 00:05:24,210 Um, right. 178 00:05:24,215 --> 00:05:25,920 It's, the problems have been solved. 179 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:26,160 Right. 180 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:27,690 Like it's just, it, it is what it is. 181 00:05:27,690 --> 00:05:30,540 There's no chaos to be unwound there in most cases. 182 00:05:30,545 --> 00:05:30,930 Agreed, agreed. 183 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:32,460 Um, you don't get to create anything, right? 184 00:05:32,460 --> 00:05:35,190 And so I think it's this draw towards creation, draw towards 185 00:05:35,190 --> 00:05:38,250 creation of something we want to do and, and sort of this. 186 00:05:38,670 --> 00:05:42,360 More perfect future that we can envision lit by the 187 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,060 flames of this fire that we started, that we are 188 00:05:45,150 --> 00:05:49,590 willing to be unreasonably optimistic as we move 189 00:05:49,590 --> 00:05:51,090 towards trying to create it. 190 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,150 Knowing, knowing in most cases, and being willing to 191 00:05:54,150 --> 00:05:57,210 wake up every day and ignore that fact that the odds are 192 00:05:57,330 --> 00:05:58,680 really well stacked against. 193 00:05:59,340 --> 00:06:01,530 I think once founders get into this a little bit, like, uh, 194 00:06:01,620 --> 00:06:04,440 in when consequences start to get created, consequence 195 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,120 could be them not making payroll, you know, things 196 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:07,590 like that, like real issues. 197 00:06:07,919 --> 00:06:09,630 I think going into it, it's sexy. 198 00:06:09,690 --> 00:06:10,950 It's sexy to have a big idea. 199 00:06:10,950 --> 00:06:13,890 It's fun to ideate, to brainstorm, to throw, you 200 00:06:13,890 --> 00:06:15,120 know, ideas in the whiteboard. 201 00:06:15,330 --> 00:06:17,909 But when that changes from the initial pixie dust, as 202 00:06:17,909 --> 00:06:22,140 we always call it, to the actual job of what this is, 203 00:06:22,140 --> 00:06:23,849 which is every day waking up. 204 00:06:23,849 --> 00:06:26,095 Being like, oh my God, my job today is to 205 00:06:26,095 --> 00:06:28,255 create 10 more problems I didn't have yesterday. 206 00:06:28,645 --> 00:06:31,105 And, and if I don't do that, I'm not doing my job. 207 00:06:31,675 --> 00:06:34,315 And when I say it in those terms, like people think, 208 00:06:34,315 --> 00:06:35,665 I'm like overstating it. 209 00:06:35,875 --> 00:06:36,925 That is the job. 210 00:06:37,075 --> 00:06:39,595 Your job is to go find problems. 211 00:06:39,865 --> 00:06:42,265 Now it's a hard job, don't get me wrong. 212 00:06:42,295 --> 00:06:43,495 It's a hard job, right? 213 00:06:43,495 --> 00:06:44,815 Ryan, you and I wake up in the morning. 214 00:06:44,845 --> 00:06:47,605 You and I are very early in the morning, and then we start 215 00:06:47,605 --> 00:06:48,835 unpacking problems immediately. 216 00:06:48,835 --> 00:06:51,445 We literally look for stuff to go, uh, break 217 00:06:51,445 --> 00:06:52,315 or fix one of the two. 218 00:06:52,995 --> 00:06:54,525 They seem to arrive with more frequency than the 219 00:06:54,525 --> 00:06:55,544 Amazon man at this point. 220 00:06:56,025 --> 00:06:56,715 Yeah, they do. 221 00:06:56,745 --> 00:06:57,135 They do. 222 00:06:57,465 --> 00:06:59,565 But for a lot of people that, that don't 223 00:06:59,565 --> 00:07:01,125 understand this path, yeah. 224 00:07:01,755 --> 00:07:04,515 They look at that as, I can't believe everything's breaking. 225 00:07:04,664 --> 00:07:06,044 What am I doing wrong? 226 00:07:06,195 --> 00:07:08,234 And it's like, yeah, no, this is the path. 227 00:07:08,265 --> 00:07:10,034 They're actually, this is the job isn't another path. 228 00:07:10,275 --> 00:07:10,575 Right. 229 00:07:10,695 --> 00:07:13,125 I watch it not just with founders, but I, I think 230 00:07:13,125 --> 00:07:15,674 about different paths in our lives, d times in our lives. 231 00:07:16,215 --> 00:07:19,275 We have kind of this, why is everything breaking? 232 00:07:19,275 --> 00:07:19,995 It must be me. 233 00:07:20,595 --> 00:07:20,895 Both. 234 00:07:20,955 --> 00:07:21,195 Both. 235 00:07:21,195 --> 00:07:24,915 You and I have teenage daughters and they're living in this 236 00:07:24,945 --> 00:07:27,825 for the first time where their social circles and everything 237 00:07:27,825 --> 00:07:31,275 else like that are becoming geometrically more complex. 238 00:07:31,665 --> 00:07:34,335 You know, people aren't asking people to dances and things like 239 00:07:34,335 --> 00:07:37,245 that and, and they're like, oh my God, what am I doing wrong? 240 00:07:37,425 --> 00:07:39,285 We look at that and we're like, that's just being teenager. 241 00:07:39,310 --> 00:07:41,115 Yeah, that's, that's, that's the case. 242 00:07:41,135 --> 00:07:42,790 All the trials and tribulations of being a age. 243 00:07:42,855 --> 00:07:43,240 Age, yeah. 244 00:07:43,450 --> 00:07:46,120 But if you're living it, if you haven't been through it before, 245 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,970 and this is, you know, akin to us seeing new founders that come 246 00:07:48,970 --> 00:07:52,390 to startups.com and their heads are on fire because they're 247 00:07:52,390 --> 00:07:55,000 like, there are so many problems that I'm dealing with right now. 248 00:07:55,270 --> 00:07:56,320 What am I doing wrong? 249 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,700 My most consistent answer is, you're exactly where 250 00:08:00,700 --> 00:08:01,400 you're supposed to be. 251 00:08:01,650 --> 00:08:01,739 Yep. 252 00:08:01,950 --> 00:08:04,590 This is exactly what you're supposed to be doing right now. 253 00:08:04,590 --> 00:08:07,650 You are supposed to be in the shit in all these 254 00:08:07,650 --> 00:08:09,239 problems, losing sleep. 255 00:08:09,239 --> 00:08:09,870 It's not awesome. 256 00:08:09,870 --> 00:08:12,659 It's not healthy, I'm saying, but this is the job. 257 00:08:13,140 --> 00:08:15,030 You know, it reminds me thinking about that the first 258 00:08:15,030 --> 00:08:17,429 time founder versus the, the, the not first time founder. 259 00:08:17,429 --> 00:08:17,609 Right? 260 00:08:17,609 --> 00:08:18,960 People have been through this a bit more. 261 00:08:19,325 --> 00:08:21,005 And I think we may have referenced this on the pod 262 00:08:21,005 --> 00:08:24,544 before, but it's essentially like that scene from insert 263 00:08:24,664 --> 00:08:27,155 World War II movie here, where you've got like the grizzled 264 00:08:27,155 --> 00:08:29,885 sergeant walking around and you've got both the new 265 00:08:29,885 --> 00:08:32,615 leadership in the terms of like the commissioned officers 266 00:08:32,885 --> 00:08:35,255 and the, you know, the, the first time, uh, grunts. 267 00:08:35,669 --> 00:08:38,280 They're all running around like pure chaos and you know, the 268 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,159 s sitting private Ryan walking through not reacting at all. 269 00:08:41,164 --> 00:08:41,339 Right, right. 270 00:08:41,339 --> 00:08:43,289 Like light in smoke and just walking through all 271 00:08:43,289 --> 00:08:46,140 the explosions because they understand that that is the job. 272 00:08:46,290 --> 00:08:48,420 They know that this is what it looks like and 273 00:08:48,420 --> 00:08:49,109 it's what it's gonna be. 274 00:08:49,109 --> 00:08:49,319 Right. 275 00:08:49,319 --> 00:08:51,780 Like, you know, the founder job, to go back to our fire 276 00:08:51,780 --> 00:08:54,329 analogy, it's something like, it's, you're really, you're, 277 00:08:54,329 --> 00:08:55,229 you're managing the burn. 278 00:08:55,785 --> 00:08:56,114 Right. 279 00:08:56,505 --> 00:08:59,474 You, by you, you're trying to control the, the fuel, uh, 280 00:08:59,474 --> 00:09:01,275 which is generally kinda like what we're focused on within 281 00:09:01,275 --> 00:09:02,175 the startup at a given point. 282 00:09:02,535 --> 00:09:05,084 The oxygen being the amount of attention you give that, 283 00:09:05,444 --> 00:09:07,694 um, and then making sure that there are some exits. 284 00:09:07,694 --> 00:09:09,104 IE your, your runway. 285 00:09:09,614 --> 00:09:11,925 So, so this whole thing is survivable, right? 286 00:09:11,925 --> 00:09:13,785 Like how do we manage towards some kind of an 287 00:09:13,785 --> 00:09:15,885 outcome in this chaos? 288 00:09:16,170 --> 00:09:18,240 I think that was the other thing that I realized at, at 289 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,270 some point, probably not nearly early enough, um, was that 290 00:09:21,270 --> 00:09:24,570 my job wasn't to eliminate the chaos either, right? 291 00:09:24,570 --> 00:09:26,550 I wasn't trying to do away with the chaos. 292 00:09:26,850 --> 00:09:30,090 I was trying to leverage some of the momentum that 293 00:09:30,090 --> 00:09:31,320 existed within the chaos. 294 00:09:32,010 --> 00:09:33,180 To move forward and that was it. 295 00:09:33,209 --> 00:09:33,449 Right? 296 00:09:33,449 --> 00:09:35,489 And then just to be okay, it's like, oh yeah, my job isn't 297 00:09:35,489 --> 00:09:36,930 to make all of this normal. 298 00:09:37,109 --> 00:09:38,459 It's not going to be right. 299 00:09:38,459 --> 00:09:40,770 Maybe at some point in the very, in the distant future 300 00:09:40,979 --> 00:09:43,829 when the startup achieves everything it wants to, yes. 301 00:09:43,829 --> 00:09:46,050 Then, um, but rarely even then. 302 00:09:46,740 --> 00:09:46,950 So 303 00:09:46,950 --> 00:09:47,640 stick with that. 304 00:09:47,670 --> 00:09:48,720 There's all this chaos. 305 00:09:49,020 --> 00:09:50,940 And most founders, uh, you know, 'cause we, we 306 00:09:50,940 --> 00:09:51,840 advise them all the time. 307 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,150 They'll come to us and say like, I am, you know, overwhelmed 308 00:09:54,150 --> 00:09:55,380 with chaos right now. 309 00:09:55,980 --> 00:09:58,260 How am I supposed to inspire? 310 00:09:58,260 --> 00:10:02,130 Like, where do I create this optimism in the face 311 00:10:02,130 --> 00:10:03,660 of so much negativity? 312 00:10:03,690 --> 00:10:04,650 So much negativity. 313 00:10:05,005 --> 00:10:07,560 And, and I wanna talk about that kinda where that comes 314 00:10:07,560 --> 00:10:10,170 from and, and, and you know, how we manufacture that. 315 00:10:10,710 --> 00:10:13,200 But I think about it in terms of, um. 316 00:10:13,795 --> 00:10:17,035 Because we are in the business of delusion, and everybody 317 00:10:17,035 --> 00:10:19,675 hates that term because it, it sounds like, it sounds 318 00:10:19,675 --> 00:10:21,084 negative, it sounds false. 319 00:10:21,084 --> 00:10:21,895 It's, you know, all these things. 320 00:10:22,375 --> 00:10:23,545 I hear accurate. 321 00:10:25,135 --> 00:10:25,854 It probably is. 322 00:10:25,854 --> 00:10:26,635 It's, it is what it is. 323 00:10:26,785 --> 00:10:27,234 Yeah, man. 324 00:10:27,234 --> 00:10:29,305 So, but, but I look at it and I say. 325 00:10:29,820 --> 00:10:33,030 As a person who has always lived in a state of delusion, 326 00:10:33,420 --> 00:10:35,520 you know, I've just got a wild imagination and that's 327 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:36,630 a big part of this job. 328 00:10:36,630 --> 00:10:36,690 Yeah. 329 00:10:37,230 --> 00:10:40,950 I remember as being like a 9-year-old kid on, in the 330 00:10:40,950 --> 00:10:44,070 summer, I'd wake up and I'd be like, I wanna build a fort. 331 00:10:44,475 --> 00:10:46,755 Where I grew up in Connecticut, um, we had lots and lots 332 00:10:46,755 --> 00:10:48,885 of woods, so all the houses backed up to woods, so, 333 00:10:49,815 --> 00:10:49,944 and I never, isn't it 334 00:10:49,944 --> 00:10:50,925 weird that I still wake up like that? 335 00:10:50,925 --> 00:10:52,065 Will, I'm not even kidding. 336 00:10:52,065 --> 00:10:54,645 Jack and I saw some stuff from like a construction project 337 00:10:54,645 --> 00:10:56,205 the other day where they're like, gutting this building. 338 00:10:56,475 --> 00:10:58,725 We saw this stuff and we stood there for like 10 minutes being 339 00:10:58,725 --> 00:11:00,855 like, Ooh, we could grab that stuff, take it over to Park 340 00:11:00,855 --> 00:11:03,620 Levy there, and we could build a fort, literally designing 341 00:11:03,885 --> 00:11:06,195 this timeless man how to, yeah, that would've gone over well. 342 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:06,380 So, 343 00:11:06,525 --> 00:11:09,435 so the moment I woke up though, the delusion began. 344 00:11:09,975 --> 00:11:13,665 The delusion began, I pictured the full fortress 345 00:11:13,785 --> 00:11:14,895 that was going to get built. 346 00:11:15,105 --> 00:11:15,375 Okay. 347 00:11:15,525 --> 00:11:16,935 I remember I'd grab graph paper. 348 00:11:16,935 --> 00:11:17,835 I loved this part, right? 349 00:11:17,835 --> 00:11:20,175 This is before SketchUp existed, and I would sketch 350 00:11:20,175 --> 00:11:23,085 out exactly what the fort would look like, you know, 351 00:11:23,085 --> 00:11:24,435 in, in, in its purpose. 352 00:11:24,435 --> 00:11:25,725 And, you know, its grand vision. 353 00:11:26,324 --> 00:11:29,355 And I would then go to my, my, um, the kids in my neighborhood 354 00:11:29,595 --> 00:11:32,235 and I would recruit every single kid that would listen 355 00:11:32,564 --> 00:11:35,145 and sell them on the idea of what this fort was going to be. 356 00:11:35,650 --> 00:11:37,900 Where we were gonna source materials and get them 357 00:11:37,900 --> 00:11:39,970 super pumped about what their role in the grand 358 00:11:39,970 --> 00:11:41,350 vision would be, et cetera. 359 00:11:41,650 --> 00:11:44,590 I mean, it was founder 1 0 1, right? 360 00:11:44,590 --> 00:11:48,010 Like, I mean, it's funny that I was just instinctively doing 361 00:11:48,010 --> 00:11:49,689 that ever since I was a kid. 362 00:11:50,350 --> 00:11:50,470 Yeah. 363 00:11:50,470 --> 00:11:50,560 But. 364 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,370 In my mind when I woke up that morning, that 365 00:11:53,370 --> 00:11:54,330 fort was already built. 366 00:11:54,630 --> 00:11:57,390 The only difference between where I was right now and being 367 00:11:57,390 --> 00:12:00,180 there was all the work I had to do in between to make it happen. 368 00:12:00,210 --> 00:12:00,300 Sure. 369 00:12:00,300 --> 00:12:00,960 But in my mind, 370 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:02,520 it was a foregone conclusion. 371 00:12:02,940 --> 00:12:04,230 Well stick on that for a second. 372 00:12:04,230 --> 00:12:06,360 'cause I think that's an important distinction between 373 00:12:06,750 --> 00:12:08,250 founders and most people. 374 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,180 I think that most people need proof to believe. 375 00:12:12,780 --> 00:12:15,480 Founders, on the other hand, just need belief to 376 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:16,530 go and create some proof. 377 00:12:16,770 --> 00:12:17,880 Uh, correct. 378 00:12:17,939 --> 00:12:18,240 Yeah. 379 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:20,430 As long as we're willing to believe we will go, we'll, 380 00:12:20,430 --> 00:12:21,449 we'll go prove it, right? 381 00:12:21,449 --> 00:12:21,540 Yep. 382 00:12:21,540 --> 00:12:23,550 Everyone else is sitting around going, prove this 383 00:12:23,550 --> 00:12:25,920 to me so that I can believe it, and we're like, that's 384 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:27,210 not the way I see the world. 385 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:27,870 It just isn't. 386 00:12:28,140 --> 00:12:31,470 And again, for those folks that need proof, I get it. 387 00:12:32,310 --> 00:12:33,210 Yeah, I, I get it. 388 00:12:33,540 --> 00:12:35,189 You see this in religion, right? 389 00:12:35,189 --> 00:12:37,020 And that, that is the, the, the fundamental 390 00:12:37,020 --> 00:12:37,860 difference in religion. 391 00:12:37,860 --> 00:12:39,540 You either have faith and you believe. 392 00:12:39,959 --> 00:12:42,449 Or you insist on proof and you don't get it right. 393 00:12:42,449 --> 00:12:43,890 It just, it, it's one of the two. 394 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,150 And, and, and those are very polarizing spectrums. 395 00:12:48,329 --> 00:12:48,600 Okay? 396 00:12:48,959 --> 00:12:52,800 Now, for people who believe, they often not always don't 397 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:54,870 need to be told to believe, there's just something in 398 00:12:54,870 --> 00:12:57,660 them that is willing to manufacture that belief. 399 00:12:58,020 --> 00:12:59,790 And hold onto it very strongly and, and 400 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:01,350 clearly around religion. 401 00:13:01,350 --> 00:13:03,750 Nothing has inspired more humans on the planet 402 00:13:03,930 --> 00:13:05,010 than what is religion. 403 00:13:05,010 --> 00:13:07,050 A belief in something that that might not be. 404 00:13:07,050 --> 00:13:08,969 And again, I'm not knocking anybody's religion, I'm just 405 00:13:08,969 --> 00:13:11,640 saying everyone recognizes that there could be a chance 406 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:13,650 that, that it isn't what we think it is, no matter how, 407 00:13:13,650 --> 00:13:14,400 how strong our belief is. 408 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:16,740 And, but we're willing to believe anyway. 409 00:13:17,189 --> 00:13:17,910 That is a founder. 410 00:13:18,209 --> 00:13:21,270 The founder says there's, I can't prove a damn thing. 411 00:13:21,590 --> 00:13:24,620 I have no idea whether this is gonna actually become 412 00:13:24,620 --> 00:13:27,920 this thing, but I believe so strongly in the value of what 413 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,610 it could be, that I'm gonna manufacture all of the optimism 414 00:13:31,700 --> 00:13:35,390 that I've ever had in my life around this single goal. 415 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:36,980 And I'm, again, I'm expire. 416 00:13:36,980 --> 00:13:39,470 Lots of people to join, invest, and all these things. 417 00:13:39,839 --> 00:13:42,990 But at, at some point, and this is, this is, uh, what I want to 418 00:13:42,990 --> 00:13:45,390 kind of dial into at some point. 419 00:13:45,420 --> 00:13:47,280 Like when it's first starting, it's just a concept. 420 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:48,240 There's no consequence yet. 421 00:13:49,140 --> 00:13:51,750 Fast forward three years in, I haven't gotten paid. 422 00:13:51,750 --> 00:13:53,550 I've burned through all my personal savings. 423 00:13:53,670 --> 00:13:56,459 I've got a bunch of people that I can barely keep paid. 424 00:13:56,610 --> 00:13:59,910 Maybe I'm, I'm swinging rope to rope on, uh, investor checks. 425 00:14:00,300 --> 00:14:02,699 Where the hell am I supposed to get that optimism now? 426 00:14:03,405 --> 00:14:05,325 Like what does that even look like at this point? 427 00:14:05,385 --> 00:14:07,635 Yeah, and I think that's where a lot of people that we talk to, 428 00:14:07,635 --> 00:14:11,715 they're in that spot and they're like, once the pixie dust of 429 00:14:11,715 --> 00:14:14,985 the big idea ran off, now I have the reality of what this 430 00:14:14,985 --> 00:14:18,435 thing is and how the hell am I supposed to draw more optimism 431 00:14:18,435 --> 00:14:19,635 from the reality around me? 432 00:14:19,755 --> 00:14:19,995 You know what 433 00:14:19,995 --> 00:14:20,175 I mean? 434 00:14:20,445 --> 00:14:20,595 Yeah. 435 00:14:20,595 --> 00:14:22,545 I think the future visionally goes so far, right? 436 00:14:22,545 --> 00:14:25,935 Like you waking up, you waking up and seeing that for that's 437 00:14:25,935 --> 00:14:27,015 already built, that's great. 438 00:14:27,075 --> 00:14:27,315 Right? 439 00:14:27,315 --> 00:14:28,605 We seeing it as already real. 440 00:14:28,605 --> 00:14:30,495 That's, I think that's where it, it starts. 441 00:14:31,100 --> 00:14:33,980 For me, it was then always about kind of like this alchemy 442 00:14:33,980 --> 00:14:36,050 around, uh, minor wins, right? 443 00:14:36,050 --> 00:14:40,010 Like little outcomes that are signals that, that can kind 444 00:14:40,010 --> 00:14:41,090 of turn into some momentum. 445 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,210 Um, so maybe it's that waking up and, and and creating the, 446 00:14:44,210 --> 00:14:45,440 the sketch on graph paper. 447 00:14:45,620 --> 00:14:46,640 And so I go like, okay, yes. 448 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,350 So now I can show this to somebody else and they'll, 449 00:14:48,530 --> 00:14:49,280 they'll be able to see it. 450 00:14:49,340 --> 00:14:51,830 It is closer to the real that I see and then 451 00:14:51,830 --> 00:14:52,820 getting somebody to agree. 452 00:14:53,090 --> 00:14:56,345 And so it's, it's really about that series of, of kind of 453 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,655 micro wins and, and leveraging those together so that you. 454 00:15:00,285 --> 00:15:01,515 Because that's where it comes from, right? 455 00:15:01,515 --> 00:15:04,515 Like at some point I've met very, very few founders. 456 00:15:04,545 --> 00:15:09,615 I've met a few who will just continue with that sort of 457 00:15:09,615 --> 00:15:11,834 like religious level of faith. 458 00:15:12,255 --> 00:15:15,645 Where it's like, I have yet to see any proof of this, but I 459 00:15:15,645 --> 00:15:18,314 believe in it so strongly that I'm willing to keep doing this. 460 00:15:18,314 --> 00:15:20,954 I, I keep, I keep running into nose and walls everywhere. 461 00:15:21,255 --> 00:15:22,035 I'm willing to keep doing it. 462 00:15:22,574 --> 00:15:23,775 Most founders have a limit. 463 00:15:23,780 --> 00:15:25,484 I, I, I would argue probably all founders have 464 00:15:25,484 --> 00:15:26,295 a limit there somewhere. 465 00:15:26,354 --> 00:15:30,854 Um, but I think that, you know, where most of us end up either 466 00:15:31,245 --> 00:15:34,035 moving forward, turning back is when we either do or don't 467 00:15:34,035 --> 00:15:35,745 get those, those little wins. 468 00:15:35,745 --> 00:15:38,834 And for me, it was about ritualizing them as, 469 00:15:38,834 --> 00:15:40,125 as, as much as I could. 470 00:15:41,010 --> 00:15:41,969 Log them. 471 00:15:42,209 --> 00:15:43,795 Make sure the team who wins is aware of them, 472 00:15:43,795 --> 00:15:45,209 wins or wins, whoever it is that I'm certain, right? 473 00:15:45,209 --> 00:15:47,790 So just memorialize them in some ways and then use that 474 00:15:47,790 --> 00:15:51,630 to, to compound morale within the team if that's necessary. 475 00:15:51,630 --> 00:15:54,599 Or just even within myself to like go back and look at it 476 00:15:54,599 --> 00:15:57,300 and go, okay, this actually has added up to something. 477 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:57,630 Right? 478 00:15:57,630 --> 00:15:59,550 This isn't, it isn't a zero yet everybody else is 479 00:15:59,550 --> 00:16:00,630 looking at it going as zero. 480 00:16:01,260 --> 00:16:03,630 I'm still seeing that future vision, but 481 00:16:03,630 --> 00:16:04,620 there's also some there. 482 00:16:04,620 --> 00:16:05,490 There's a little bit of smoke. 483 00:16:05,490 --> 00:16:06,780 Maybe we don't have fire yet, but there's 484 00:16:06,780 --> 00:16:08,400 at least something here. 485 00:16:08,730 --> 00:16:09,060 You know 486 00:16:09,060 --> 00:16:12,150 something that's really funny about everything we talk about 487 00:16:12,150 --> 00:16:14,910 here is that none of it is new. 488 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,730 Everything you're dealing with right now has been done a 489 00:16:17,730 --> 00:16:21,569 thousand times before you, which means the answer already exists. 490 00:16:21,569 --> 00:16:22,319 You may just not know it. 491 00:16:22,650 --> 00:16:23,430 But that's okay. 492 00:16:23,790 --> 00:16:25,620 That's kind of what we're here to do. 493 00:16:25,620 --> 00:16:28,260 We talk about this stuff on the show, but we actually 494 00:16:28,260 --> 00:16:32,250 solve these problems all dayLong@groups.startups.com. 495 00:16:32,459 --> 00:16:35,760 So if any of this sounds familiar, stop guessing 496 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,790 about what to do, let us just give you the answers to the 497 00:16:38,790 --> 00:16:40,170 test and be done with it. 498 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,010 I remember when I was raising VC for, for my first company, 499 00:16:44,490 --> 00:16:47,040 Uhhuh, that I would eventually successfully raise for, we were 500 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,220 on 50 investor pitches, of which every single person said, no. 501 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:50,370 True. 502 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:52,319 Every single person said, no. 503 00:16:52,350 --> 00:16:55,410 Now it's never quite that binary when you're in the 504 00:16:55,410 --> 00:16:57,540 pitches, like there, there's, you have good pitches 505 00:16:57,540 --> 00:16:58,470 that still end up in a no. 506 00:16:58,475 --> 00:16:58,829 Yeah, yeah. 507 00:16:58,829 --> 00:17:01,650 So you, you kind of manufacture some optimism from it. 508 00:17:01,650 --> 00:17:01,920 Sure. 509 00:17:02,220 --> 00:17:03,900 But you feel like you got a little further, you get 510 00:17:03,900 --> 00:17:06,089 some nods on slides that were just absolute because 511 00:17:06,089 --> 00:17:07,030 flat previously Yeah. 512 00:17:07,109 --> 00:17:07,349 Yeah. 513 00:17:07,349 --> 00:17:10,139 Maybe like, like a third of those, you know, a, a hard 514 00:17:10,139 --> 00:17:11,129 No, from the, the get go. 515 00:17:11,129 --> 00:17:11,190 Yeah. 516 00:17:11,550 --> 00:17:14,250 A third of those you get to know later on, and a third of 517 00:17:14,250 --> 00:17:15,629 those are all like, Hey, maybe. 518 00:17:16,514 --> 00:17:16,754 Yeah. 519 00:17:16,784 --> 00:17:16,964 Right. 520 00:17:16,964 --> 00:17:19,635 And so you're manufacturing the optimism for, for those 521 00:17:19,635 --> 00:17:21,675 ones that, that might, uh, close even though in, in 522 00:17:21,675 --> 00:17:22,484 the end none of them did. 523 00:17:22,905 --> 00:17:25,845 But then 50, you know, meeting 51, this person was like, this 524 00:17:25,845 --> 00:17:26,925 is the best idea I've ever seen. 525 00:17:26,954 --> 00:17:28,635 Like, uh, you know, shut up and take my money. 526 00:17:29,205 --> 00:17:29,264 Yeah. 527 00:17:29,264 --> 00:17:29,955 And we're like, huh. 528 00:17:30,465 --> 00:17:34,095 Had we given up in meeting 10, which a rational person 529 00:17:34,215 --> 00:17:36,645 after 10 meetings with, you know, very, uh, substantial 530 00:17:36,645 --> 00:17:38,355 investors would've been like, you know, this 531 00:17:38,355 --> 00:17:39,225 probably isn't a great idea. 532 00:17:39,765 --> 00:17:43,365 A rational person wouldn't have done it 40 more times. 533 00:17:43,605 --> 00:17:43,965 Right. 534 00:17:44,175 --> 00:17:45,525 But we're not rational people. 535 00:17:45,645 --> 00:17:48,585 We're not, and and I, I think when you try to apply a rational 536 00:17:48,585 --> 00:17:51,435 filter, and, and by the way, I'm not saying a reasonable 537 00:17:51,435 --> 00:17:54,705 filter, rational filter to, in my mind, the distinction would 538 00:17:54,705 --> 00:17:57,585 be yes, rational says, look, I've, I've looked at the data. 539 00:17:57,675 --> 00:17:58,935 The data says Stop doing this. 540 00:17:58,965 --> 00:17:59,145 Okay. 541 00:17:59,145 --> 00:17:59,295 Correct. 542 00:17:59,415 --> 00:18:01,635 Very rational, reasonable person said, I've 543 00:18:01,635 --> 00:18:02,415 looked at the data too. 544 00:18:02,445 --> 00:18:05,655 It also says, uh, it may not be probable, but it doesn't 545 00:18:05,655 --> 00:18:06,585 mean it, it can't be done. 546 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:07,560 Correct. 547 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:07,830 Right. 548 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,290 You know, I, I reasoned, I've looked at both and I said, 549 00:18:10,290 --> 00:18:13,800 Hey, chances are we won't get it done, but there's 10% 550 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,240 chance that we will carry on. 551 00:18:15,510 --> 00:18:15,630 Right. 552 00:18:15,630 --> 00:18:18,330 It's, we've, we've gotten nothing but No, so far, but 553 00:18:18,330 --> 00:18:20,370 it's not definitive yet that that's the only answer that 554 00:18:20,370 --> 00:18:21,135 could possibly come back. 555 00:18:21,205 --> 00:18:21,695 Correct. 556 00:18:22,220 --> 00:18:24,139 When I think about, you know, where this optimism 557 00:18:24,139 --> 00:18:26,510 is coming from, when I think about where it stems from, 558 00:18:26,780 --> 00:18:29,659 I think you touched on it, it stems from those little, 559 00:18:29,870 --> 00:18:31,340 those little wins, right? 560 00:18:31,460 --> 00:18:33,470 That, that maybe it's not a yes, but it's a, maybe. 561 00:18:33,470 --> 00:18:34,280 It's like, well, shit, we haven't had 562 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:35,629 a maybe before, right? 563 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:37,850 When you and I are building product together, we built 564 00:18:37,850 --> 00:18:39,649 a lot of products over a long period of time. 565 00:18:40,100 --> 00:18:42,530 We launched a new product, a new price point, you know, a, a 566 00:18:42,530 --> 00:18:44,990 new feature and one person buys. 567 00:18:45,230 --> 00:18:47,870 Now the weight of that one person means nothing, you 568 00:18:47,870 --> 00:18:49,310 know, relative to our business. 569 00:18:49,580 --> 00:18:50,780 But it opens the door of hope. 570 00:18:50,845 --> 00:18:50,935 Yes. 571 00:18:51,535 --> 00:18:54,145 And, and we go, ah, if, if it's one, it could be two. 572 00:18:54,145 --> 00:18:55,165 If it could two, it could be 20. 573 00:18:55,165 --> 00:18:55,345 Yeah. 574 00:18:55,435 --> 00:18:55,705 Right? 575 00:18:56,065 --> 00:18:56,305 Yeah. 576 00:18:56,485 --> 00:18:57,385 It's not zero anymore. 577 00:18:57,835 --> 00:18:58,345 Exactly. 578 00:18:58,345 --> 00:19:00,415 Because zero is a very specific number. 579 00:19:01,135 --> 00:19:04,075 And I think that optimism comes from these tiny little 580 00:19:04,075 --> 00:19:06,475 signals that breed hope. 581 00:19:07,165 --> 00:19:10,255 And I think that when, when people look at hope, I think we 582 00:19:10,255 --> 00:19:12,925 tend to wildly undervalue hope. 583 00:19:13,255 --> 00:19:15,895 I think we look at hope as this childlike fantasy. 584 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,100 And what I'm saying is that shred of hope, that shred 585 00:19:20,100 --> 00:19:22,680 of optimism is our business. 586 00:19:22,980 --> 00:19:23,220 Right? 587 00:19:23,220 --> 00:19:25,920 That is literally what, what, what makes great companies 588 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:26,850 is that shred of hope. 589 00:19:26,855 --> 00:19:26,895 Yeah. 590 00:19:26,900 --> 00:19:27,960 That shred of possibility. 591 00:19:28,530 --> 00:19:30,450 And when you look back at so many companies that have 592 00:19:30,450 --> 00:19:33,630 had that like down to the last, you know, dollar, down 593 00:19:33,630 --> 00:19:36,840 to the, the, the last morsel moment and they've come back, 594 00:19:37,380 --> 00:19:38,280 the difference was hope. 595 00:19:38,460 --> 00:19:40,470 Now, for every one of those stories where the 596 00:19:40,470 --> 00:19:42,660 person came back, there's a thousand of them where 597 00:19:42,660 --> 00:19:45,310 they fell off a cliff like, uh, Wally Coyote, but yeah. 598 00:19:45,690 --> 00:19:47,340 That's the point, that's the hope. 599 00:19:47,940 --> 00:19:48,480 That's what changes it at the same time. 600 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:48,690 Right. 601 00:19:48,690 --> 00:19:49,110 That's the thing. 602 00:19:49,230 --> 00:19:50,520 You, you gotta, you gotta play to that point. 603 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:51,600 That's where it becomes definitive. 604 00:19:51,625 --> 00:19:52,115 Right, right, right. 605 00:19:52,410 --> 00:19:55,320 I think that's what's, what's so hard for people who, who 606 00:19:55,770 --> 00:19:57,930 aren't built like this, don't have this gear, don't have this 607 00:19:57,930 --> 00:20:01,440 mentality to look at and go, like, why would you wait until 608 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:06,120 you have absolute undeniable proof that it won't work? 609 00:20:06,390 --> 00:20:06,600 Yeah. 610 00:20:06,660 --> 00:20:09,090 When you were willing to continue without any kind of 611 00:20:09,090 --> 00:20:11,400 proof that it might, like, why does it, why, why are 612 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,200 you so willing on one hand. 613 00:20:13,620 --> 00:20:17,520 To kick that decision down the road until this, until 614 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,140 you get this like you, it has to be so highly 615 00:20:19,140 --> 00:20:20,160 specific for you to say no. 616 00:20:20,460 --> 00:20:23,670 But you'll take even, you know, a, a a a, a little bit 617 00:20:23,670 --> 00:20:26,160 of cent on the wind that says maybe this is still possible. 618 00:20:26,580 --> 00:20:29,340 And I think it just goes back to, you know, being willing 619 00:20:29,340 --> 00:20:32,490 to say that like, whatever the cost and the loss is of this 620 00:20:32,490 --> 00:20:36,330 not working means less to me than the possibility that it, 621 00:20:36,420 --> 00:20:37,980 that it could, could be true. 622 00:20:38,534 --> 00:20:41,685 If I go back in time, I can even think of times where like, I'm 623 00:20:41,685 --> 00:20:47,145 not gonna say I lied to myself, but I definitely intentionally 624 00:20:47,595 --> 00:20:51,465 inflated things, right, simply because I needed some hope. 625 00:20:52,425 --> 00:20:52,635 Right. 626 00:20:53,024 --> 00:20:53,985 You have to though. 627 00:20:53,985 --> 00:20:56,294 I mean, again, that right, that is the business, right? 628 00:20:56,294 --> 00:20:58,725 Like there isn't another version of this where everything 629 00:20:58,725 --> 00:21:01,395 is going so well that your optimism just comes from 630 00:21:01,395 --> 00:21:02,595 so many high fives, right? 631 00:21:02,625 --> 00:21:02,895 Like, 632 00:21:02,955 --> 00:21:03,225 yeah. 633 00:21:03,250 --> 00:21:05,264 That, that world literally doesn't exist. 634 00:21:05,264 --> 00:21:08,745 But I think if you've never done this before and you, and 635 00:21:08,745 --> 00:21:11,595 you're like a, a, a, a rational person and you, you get your 636 00:21:11,595 --> 00:21:14,415 optimism from positive signals like that constantly happen. 637 00:21:14,895 --> 00:21:16,395 Then you look at this going. 638 00:21:16,935 --> 00:21:18,405 Why would anybody be optimistic? 639 00:21:18,405 --> 00:21:18,705 Right? 640 00:21:18,885 --> 00:21:20,625 And you see this with employees that we're not cut 641 00:21:20,625 --> 00:21:22,155 out to be at startups, right? 642 00:21:22,395 --> 00:21:25,245 As soon as the, the funding starts to go away, or as soon 643 00:21:25,245 --> 00:21:28,395 as the product market fit doesn't seem certain, they 644 00:21:28,395 --> 00:21:29,145 get the hell out of there. 645 00:21:29,265 --> 00:21:31,755 Like I, I was here when it seemed like all the signals 646 00:21:31,755 --> 00:21:34,035 were good, but as soon as they turned negative, I'm out. 647 00:21:34,395 --> 00:21:35,955 And, and frankly, you should Part company with 648 00:21:35,955 --> 00:21:36,735 that person is fast. 649 00:21:37,425 --> 00:21:37,815 Yes. 650 00:21:37,965 --> 00:21:38,325 Yeah. 651 00:21:38,325 --> 00:21:38,335 Yeah. 652 00:21:38,475 --> 00:21:39,870 They're, they're, they're not, they're on the wrong boat. 653 00:21:40,100 --> 00:21:40,390 Yeah. 654 00:21:40,390 --> 00:21:40,550 Yeah. 655 00:21:41,580 --> 00:21:45,210 The next thing I would say is when I talk to people about 656 00:21:45,659 --> 00:21:49,260 this manufacturing optimism, I think one of the things 657 00:21:49,264 --> 00:21:52,139 that, that we get back is, well, am I lying to people? 658 00:21:52,590 --> 00:21:53,220 Sure, sure, sure. 659 00:21:53,220 --> 00:21:53,490 Yeah. 660 00:21:53,490 --> 00:21:54,780 Are we talking about dishonesty, 661 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,060 you know, to Is is my delusional lie. 662 00:21:57,355 --> 00:21:57,645 Yeah. 663 00:21:57,689 --> 00:21:57,990 Yeah. 664 00:21:57,990 --> 00:21:58,169 And, 665 00:21:58,169 --> 00:21:59,129 and here's the answer. 666 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,340 It can be if you know the answer. 667 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,929 Let me explain the difference between Theranos, 668 00:22:07,409 --> 00:22:08,460 where, where the founder. 669 00:22:09,135 --> 00:22:11,475 Quite specifically lied to people. 670 00:22:11,925 --> 00:22:15,165 It's because she knew the answer was one thing and she 671 00:22:15,165 --> 00:22:16,335 gave them a different answer. 672 00:22:16,635 --> 00:22:17,565 That's called lying. 673 00:22:17,715 --> 00:22:17,774 Yeah. 674 00:22:17,774 --> 00:22:18,645 That's not optimism. 675 00:22:18,645 --> 00:22:18,720 That's lying. 676 00:22:18,825 --> 00:22:19,034 Right? 677 00:22:19,034 --> 00:22:19,245 Yeah. 678 00:22:19,245 --> 00:22:19,800 That's, that's different. 679 00:22:19,804 --> 00:22:20,895 That's called optimism, right? 680 00:22:21,254 --> 00:22:22,425 Or it's not a called optimism. 681 00:22:22,725 --> 00:22:25,425 Optimism is when there's a chance that it could be true. 682 00:22:25,784 --> 00:22:26,955 Optimism is a bet that 683 00:22:26,955 --> 00:22:28,455 has some odds. 684 00:22:28,845 --> 00:22:29,745 It's not a coverup. 685 00:22:29,955 --> 00:22:30,225 Right. 686 00:22:30,225 --> 00:22:31,305 What she did was a coverup. 687 00:22:31,785 --> 00:22:32,805 Optimism is a bet. 688 00:22:32,895 --> 00:22:33,975 Uh, lying 689 00:22:33,975 --> 00:22:34,515 is a coverup. 690 00:22:34,755 --> 00:22:34,815 Yeah. 691 00:22:34,815 --> 00:22:35,985 She knew the answer was no. 692 00:22:36,075 --> 00:22:36,285 Yeah. 693 00:22:36,495 --> 00:22:36,705 Right. 694 00:22:36,705 --> 00:22:36,915 You know? 695 00:22:36,915 --> 00:22:38,145 Does this product work currently? 696 00:22:38,205 --> 00:22:38,625 No. 697 00:22:39,195 --> 00:22:41,985 Now, to be fair, if she had phrased it differently 698 00:22:42,405 --> 00:22:43,875 and she just said Not yet. 699 00:22:43,875 --> 00:22:43,895 Not yet. 700 00:22:44,205 --> 00:22:44,505 Right. 701 00:22:44,715 --> 00:22:45,525 That would be different. 702 00:22:45,795 --> 00:22:47,775 That would be different There difference Not yet. 703 00:22:47,775 --> 00:22:49,695 Says the answer is no. 704 00:22:49,695 --> 00:22:51,735 It does not work, but it could. 705 00:22:52,409 --> 00:22:55,679 When you do it differently and you say, yes, it works, and you 706 00:22:55,679 --> 00:22:59,159 knowingly know, it won't even, even if the hope of course is, 707 00:22:59,159 --> 00:23:01,500 is that, you know, you'll get it to a working, um, viable 708 00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:03,480 state, that's still a lie. 709 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,060 I think that distinction, I'll give you a quick story. 710 00:23:06,419 --> 00:23:09,210 There's a guy, uh, that, that gave me this great story 711 00:23:09,210 --> 00:23:11,850 back in like 2006 or seven. 712 00:23:12,179 --> 00:23:14,700 His name is Matt Coffin and Matt has started a company 713 00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:16,200 called Lower My bills.com. 714 00:23:16,290 --> 00:23:17,160 Uhhuh like this. 715 00:23:17,430 --> 00:23:20,129 This would've been an early two thousands kind of darling, 716 00:23:20,129 --> 00:23:22,680 and he sold that for like three 50 million cash to the 717 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:24,690 same company that the guy I mentioned before, Cameron 718 00:23:24,690 --> 00:23:27,150 Porters and Johnny sold price grabber to both to Experian. 719 00:23:27,150 --> 00:23:29,310 Around the same time I had met Matt and he was looking to 720 00:23:29,310 --> 00:23:30,450 invest in one of my companies. 721 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,930 Matt was telling me a story about how in the early days of 722 00:23:33,930 --> 00:23:36,990 lower my bills, he was like, basically I had to present to 723 00:23:36,990 --> 00:23:39,360 the company the whole, they had lots of employees at the time. 724 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,460 He presents to the company that, you know, things are 725 00:23:41,460 --> 00:23:43,890 gonna be awesome, you know, we're, we're gonna be a big 726 00:23:43,890 --> 00:23:45,330 company, get acquired, whatever. 727 00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:48,270 And then he exits the meeting, goes in the next 728 00:23:48,270 --> 00:23:50,640 room, and he's like, we can't make payroll next week. 729 00:23:50,850 --> 00:23:51,675 Right now. 730 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,820 Now lots of founders have been in that. 731 00:23:55,409 --> 00:23:59,399 In that moment, and it's a cool story when you go on to sell for 732 00:23:59,399 --> 00:24:00,780 hundreds of millions of dollars. 733 00:24:01,290 --> 00:24:04,709 It's a less cool story when that's where it ends, right? 734 00:24:04,709 --> 00:24:05,939 Where you just don't pay everybody. 735 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:06,360 Right? 736 00:24:06,510 --> 00:24:08,729 Uh, you know, actually a, a good, you know, I don't want 737 00:24:08,729 --> 00:24:11,100 to get too into this, but like s was a good example of that. 738 00:24:11,685 --> 00:24:13,725 But in this case, the founder actually did not know that 739 00:24:13,725 --> 00:24:16,065 they weren't gonna be able to pay everybody, but ran 740 00:24:16,065 --> 00:24:19,005 into a situation where in, in very short order, she's 741 00:24:19,005 --> 00:24:21,465 like, I've got 450 people that I can't pay on Monday. 742 00:24:21,555 --> 00:24:22,485 That is a big problem. 743 00:24:22,905 --> 00:24:24,615 But she also didn't tell them that they're gonna get paid, 744 00:24:24,615 --> 00:24:25,395 so she didn't lie to them. 745 00:24:25,395 --> 00:24:28,575 She's very honest about it, but crazy shit like this 746 00:24:28,575 --> 00:24:29,475 happens in our business. 747 00:24:29,535 --> 00:24:29,955 It does. 748 00:24:30,405 --> 00:24:32,835 But again, to your point, you have to draw that, that 749 00:24:32,835 --> 00:24:36,030 distinction first around uncertainty versus certainty. 750 00:24:36,885 --> 00:24:37,245 Right. 751 00:24:37,245 --> 00:24:38,445 It, it has to be right. 752 00:24:38,445 --> 00:24:40,335 Honest optimism is okay, right? 753 00:24:40,335 --> 00:24:43,095 Here's the situation, here's the plan, here's the chance. 754 00:24:43,425 --> 00:24:44,265 Assuming there's a chance. 755 00:24:44,265 --> 00:24:45,645 I think it's when it's, here's the situation, 756 00:24:45,645 --> 00:24:48,285 here's the plan, and, you know, there's no chance. 757 00:24:48,315 --> 00:24:50,325 That's where this becomes problematic, really quick. 758 00:24:50,325 --> 00:24:52,455 Uh, not, not that we get to pick and choose these things. 759 00:24:52,515 --> 00:24:55,095 All we can do is pick and choose how we react to 'em, and 760 00:24:55,095 --> 00:24:57,585 I think that's the, the, the core difference then between. 761 00:24:58,155 --> 00:25:01,305 Honest optimism and just absolutely, uh, uh, 762 00:25:01,455 --> 00:25:02,505 you know, malfeasance, 763 00:25:02,685 --> 00:25:06,345 one of my favorite lines is in the, the most recent Deadpool 764 00:25:06,855 --> 00:25:09,705 and, uh, Wolverine finds out that Deadpool has been lying 765 00:25:09,705 --> 00:25:11,055 to him the entire time, Uhhuh. 766 00:25:11,295 --> 00:25:12,915 And he's like, it wasn't a lie. 767 00:25:13,185 --> 00:25:14,685 It was an educated wish. 768 00:25:15,315 --> 00:25:16,995 It was an educated wish. 769 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,115 And I thought, I thought, 770 00:25:21,115 --> 00:25:23,455 uh, I might print that on something and hang it somewhere 771 00:25:23,455 --> 00:25:24,925 near, I mean, how mean chef's 772 00:25:24,925 --> 00:25:25,795 kiss to that one, right? 773 00:25:25,795 --> 00:25:26,575 I mean, like Yeah. 774 00:25:26,575 --> 00:25:29,005 Whoever, whoever wrote that line is an absolute genius. 775 00:25:29,005 --> 00:25:29,125 Yes. 776 00:25:29,185 --> 00:25:29,455 Right. 777 00:25:29,725 --> 00:25:31,285 An educated wish. 778 00:25:31,465 --> 00:25:31,675 Right? 779 00:25:31,675 --> 00:25:34,705 Which I thought an educated wish was so incredibly well 780 00:25:34,705 --> 00:25:36,145 said and so appropriate. 781 00:25:36,450 --> 00:25:37,170 To what we're talking. 782 00:25:37,170 --> 00:25:37,260 Right. 783 00:25:37,260 --> 00:25:37,530 It fits. 784 00:25:37,530 --> 00:25:38,760 I mean, this 785 00:25:38,820 --> 00:25:39,540 is an educated witch. 786 00:25:39,540 --> 00:25:40,260 It's the new mantra. 787 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:40,650 Yeah. 788 00:25:40,650 --> 00:25:40,950 Right. 789 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,530 But when I think about that, and again, the difference 790 00:25:43,530 --> 00:25:47,940 between being like just blindly optimistic and being dishonest. 791 00:25:47,940 --> 00:25:48,150 Right. 792 00:25:48,150 --> 00:25:51,090 Because being dishonest is, is is very different, right? 793 00:25:51,450 --> 00:25:51,540 Yeah. 794 00:25:52,005 --> 00:25:54,645 When I look at this optimism that that isn't 795 00:25:54,735 --> 00:25:56,265 the truth, but isn't lying. 796 00:25:56,565 --> 00:25:59,175 The difference, like I said, is if you know the answer is 797 00:25:59,175 --> 00:26:02,235 one thing without question, then any other answer is lying. 798 00:26:02,715 --> 00:26:04,275 But if there's a chance that that might not be 799 00:26:04,275 --> 00:26:06,915 true, then it's usually grounded in optimism. 800 00:26:07,215 --> 00:26:09,705 For example, every founder that's ever gonna raise 801 00:26:09,705 --> 00:26:12,045 money has to go through this employee comes to them. 802 00:26:12,285 --> 00:26:14,505 I heard things aren't going so well with this funding round. 803 00:26:14,505 --> 00:26:16,425 Are we gonna be able to, uh, you know, make payroll 804 00:26:16,425 --> 00:26:17,355 in two months, so to speak? 805 00:26:17,355 --> 00:26:19,515 How, however, they, uh, verbalize that. 806 00:26:19,575 --> 00:26:19,875 Sure. 807 00:26:20,175 --> 00:26:21,195 And you say, yeah. 808 00:26:21,810 --> 00:26:23,310 Now, are you lying? 809 00:26:23,879 --> 00:26:24,300 Yes. 810 00:26:24,300 --> 00:26:26,129 If you know for sure that, that you can't 811 00:26:26,129 --> 00:26:26,700 raise more money, right? 812 00:26:26,700 --> 00:26:26,760 Yeah. 813 00:26:27,270 --> 00:26:28,889 The problem is you don't know that for sure. 814 00:26:29,129 --> 00:26:30,240 The problem is you don't, right? 815 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:31,470 You're still talking to a few people. 816 00:26:31,470 --> 00:26:34,050 There's maybe one thing, you've got a deal in the works, 817 00:26:34,050 --> 00:26:35,940 you've got this partnership, you know, something like that. 818 00:26:36,540 --> 00:26:39,240 And so if you were just say, yep, nobody's getting 819 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,940 paid in two months, then at that point you pretty much 820 00:26:41,940 --> 00:26:44,400 cancel any chance that you would ever save this year. 821 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:44,580 Yeah. 822 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,430 And everybody goes into this gray area somewhere 823 00:26:47,430 --> 00:26:50,850 between, Hey, I thought this was gonna work, and. 824 00:26:51,435 --> 00:26:53,055 Even now, I don't believe it's gonna work. 825 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:53,655 Right, right. 826 00:26:53,655 --> 00:26:55,275 But, but I'm too afraid to, to own up to what 827 00:26:55,275 --> 00:26:56,325 I, what just happened. 828 00:26:56,330 --> 00:26:57,015 It happened the whole time. 829 00:26:57,615 --> 00:26:59,775 I think, you know, as you're getting further into those 830 00:26:59,775 --> 00:27:03,195 murkier waters, I think there's a point at which optimism 831 00:27:03,555 --> 00:27:04,754 starts to work against you. 832 00:27:05,270 --> 00:27:07,790 I, I think at which, yeah, like we see it when, when we 833 00:27:07,790 --> 00:27:08,750 went out and bought companies. 834 00:27:09,495 --> 00:27:10,455 This was a great example. 835 00:27:10,545 --> 00:27:12,225 Uh, virtual was an example of that, but, you know, there's 836 00:27:12,225 --> 00:27:14,504 many, many others that we bought or looked at, and 837 00:27:14,504 --> 00:27:16,004 the founder was like, well, I still think this swing's 838 00:27:16,245 --> 00:27:17,175 worth a hundred million. 839 00:27:17,190 --> 00:27:17,610 Mm-hmm. 840 00:27:17,695 --> 00:27:19,935 You did $25,000 in revenue last year. 841 00:27:20,115 --> 00:27:20,445 Right. 842 00:27:20,504 --> 00:27:20,745 You know? 843 00:27:21,195 --> 00:27:21,524 Yes. 844 00:27:21,524 --> 00:27:22,450 But the data, yeah, 845 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:23,370 yeah. 846 00:27:24,180 --> 00:27:24,530 Right. 847 00:27:25,274 --> 00:27:25,695 Yeah, yeah. 848 00:27:25,695 --> 00:27:27,435 You sure there, there's a chance. 849 00:27:27,795 --> 00:27:28,965 It's not a good one. 850 00:27:28,965 --> 00:27:31,215 And it's not the vast likelihood, but yeah, there's, 851 00:27:31,215 --> 00:27:33,580 there's a really small chance this is worth the a 852 00:27:33,580 --> 00:27:35,085 hundred million, but that's 853 00:27:35,085 --> 00:27:38,835 where, in my mind, that's where the difference between. 854 00:27:39,190 --> 00:27:42,520 I have some basis for why this could happen and I'm just 855 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:43,990 making shit up at this point. 856 00:27:44,140 --> 00:27:44,350 Right. 857 00:27:44,530 --> 00:27:44,770 Yeah. 858 00:27:44,830 --> 00:27:46,930 That's as close to lying as you can get, which is my 859 00:27:46,930 --> 00:27:49,210 point, I think, where I start to see it. 860 00:27:49,210 --> 00:27:51,610 So when we get close to this line between hopeful 861 00:27:51,610 --> 00:27:54,550 and harmful, I think that there's, there's sort of. 862 00:27:55,110 --> 00:27:56,280 Three components to that. 863 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,620 For me, it's like if we've got facts sort of 864 00:27:58,620 --> 00:27:59,400 like what do we know? 865 00:27:59,670 --> 00:28:01,530 We got some faith, you know, what are we aiming 866 00:28:01,530 --> 00:28:02,610 to accomplish here? 867 00:28:02,940 --> 00:28:04,560 And then the fight, which is what we're willing 868 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,720 to do to make that true. 869 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,030 Like the, the steps that we believe will get us there. 870 00:28:09,510 --> 00:28:12,030 I think where I start to see it go wrong is when it falls 871 00:28:12,030 --> 00:28:13,320 back just on the first two. 872 00:28:13,350 --> 00:28:16,140 It's sort of, we know we're outta money. 873 00:28:16,845 --> 00:28:19,995 But we believe we'll be able to get more before that payroll's 874 00:28:19,995 --> 00:28:22,815 due in two months, but they don't have the fight anymore. 875 00:28:22,815 --> 00:28:24,915 They don't know like what the actual steps 876 00:28:24,915 --> 00:28:25,784 they would go and take. 877 00:28:25,965 --> 00:28:29,024 This is where we're, we're now running into a real problem. 878 00:28:29,024 --> 00:28:29,415 For me. 879 00:28:29,475 --> 00:28:32,475 It's like if you, if you can tell me, here's the situation, 880 00:28:32,685 --> 00:28:36,345 it's good, bad, or ugly, here's what I believe we can go do, 881 00:28:36,705 --> 00:28:38,504 and you can tell me how you think you're gonna go about it. 882 00:28:38,534 --> 00:28:40,695 You're still on the right side of the equation. 883 00:28:40,695 --> 00:28:43,125 I think the minute that last piece disappears 884 00:28:43,125 --> 00:28:47,085 and you go like, well, I. Don't have the money. 885 00:28:47,415 --> 00:28:47,745 Yeah. 886 00:28:47,774 --> 00:28:49,544 But I really hope that we'll get it. 887 00:28:49,875 --> 00:28:51,524 But I don't have any idea from where, how 888 00:28:52,215 --> 00:28:53,024 you're on the wrong side. 889 00:28:53,024 --> 00:28:55,125 You're, you're moving over into harmful territory at that point. 890 00:28:55,425 --> 00:28:55,875 I agree. 891 00:28:55,875 --> 00:28:57,794 And, and I, I think that's what I want folks to 892 00:28:57,794 --> 00:29:00,915 understand, that there is a threshold where the upside 893 00:29:00,915 --> 00:29:04,965 to maintaining that optimism is actually no longer there. 894 00:29:05,595 --> 00:29:05,775 Right. 895 00:29:05,775 --> 00:29:07,905 And now you're really just mitigating the downside, 896 00:29:07,905 --> 00:29:08,685 in which case again, yep. 897 00:29:08,775 --> 00:29:10,245 You're starting to get into Theranos territory, 898 00:29:10,245 --> 00:29:11,655 which I think is a dangerous spot for sure. 899 00:29:12,315 --> 00:29:15,615 When we talk to founders, and I can tell they're at the point 900 00:29:15,615 --> 00:29:18,525 of no return, the, the advice that I give them, and I've given 901 00:29:18,525 --> 00:29:20,415 this to many, many founders, some of those are listeners 902 00:29:20,415 --> 00:29:23,745 of this show, I've said, look, you're at a point now where 903 00:29:23,745 --> 00:29:25,125 you're no longer trying to win. 904 00:29:25,425 --> 00:29:27,375 Instead, you're just focused on trying not to fail, 905 00:29:27,790 --> 00:29:31,095 and, and no one wins with that strategy and, and it's 906 00:29:31,095 --> 00:29:32,295 time to unwind this thing. 907 00:29:32,325 --> 00:29:34,545 And I basically try to give them permission. 908 00:29:34,889 --> 00:29:37,919 To let go because at that point I know their 909 00:29:37,919 --> 00:29:39,750 optimism is a delusion. 910 00:29:39,750 --> 00:29:42,419 Even to them, it's, it's no longer benefiting them. 911 00:29:42,810 --> 00:29:43,080 Right? 912 00:29:43,620 --> 00:29:44,850 But here's what's interesting, man. 913 00:29:45,330 --> 00:29:48,060 If we don't have this optimism, if we don't 914 00:29:48,060 --> 00:29:49,110 manufacture this optimism. 915 00:29:50,055 --> 00:29:51,195 We can't win. 916 00:29:51,495 --> 00:29:54,615 There's no version where you do what we do based 917 00:29:54,764 --> 00:29:56,625 purely on facts, right? 918 00:29:56,625 --> 00:29:59,175 It just, if, if that's the business you think you're in, 919 00:29:59,175 --> 00:30:00,105 you're in the wrong business. 920 00:30:00,105 --> 00:30:00,375 Man. 921 00:30:00,735 --> 00:30:03,555 I just saw a clip last night that illustrates this. 922 00:30:03,855 --> 00:30:07,305 It was from while not sleeping because, uh, Jack has in 923 00:30:07,335 --> 00:30:10,125 two, has had a cough for two weeks and, and it only comes 924 00:30:10,125 --> 00:30:11,534 at night to keep us awake. 925 00:30:11,534 --> 00:30:12,945 It's as we've decided that's what it's for. 926 00:30:13,425 --> 00:30:14,745 But I, I happen to catch this line. 927 00:30:15,105 --> 00:30:15,885 Do you remember the show? 928 00:30:15,885 --> 00:30:16,514 Whose line is it? 929 00:30:16,514 --> 00:30:16,875 Anyways? 930 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,899 Yeah, I have no idea how deeply, uh, this thing was buried on 931 00:30:19,899 --> 00:30:21,580 the internet, but this, this clip resurfaced last night 932 00:30:21,580 --> 00:30:26,500 for me, and the, the prompt was worst or least inspiring 933 00:30:26,500 --> 00:30:29,110 battle cries and the least inspiring battle cry was the 934 00:30:29,110 --> 00:30:29,554 guy runs out and he goes. 935 00:30:30,195 --> 00:30:30,765 Oh no. 936 00:30:32,685 --> 00:30:34,185 I was like, yeah, right. 937 00:30:34,305 --> 00:30:35,655 You have to have optimism. 938 00:30:35,660 --> 00:30:36,165 Right, right, right. 939 00:30:36,465 --> 00:30:38,565 You show up at the fight, you gotta believe you have 940 00:30:38,565 --> 00:30:41,655 some chance of winning, otherwise you definitely won't. 941 00:30:41,955 --> 00:30:44,385 My favorite example of that, and you know your battle cry is 942 00:30:44,385 --> 00:30:48,045 perfect, is the opening scene from Saving Private Ryan, just 943 00:30:48,045 --> 00:30:49,095 telling the kids about this. 944 00:30:49,500 --> 00:30:52,800 Yeah, definitely don't show it to 'em, but no, exactly that. 945 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:53,070 They were like, 946 00:30:53,070 --> 00:30:53,880 can we watch it? 947 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:54,870 I was like, absolutely 948 00:30:54,990 --> 00:30:55,080 not. 949 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:55,530 I, right. 950 00:30:55,530 --> 00:30:58,020 I remember when I watched that scene in the theater, 951 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,860 like I was almost sick to my stomach and, and not because 952 00:31:01,860 --> 00:31:02,880 it was graphic in nature. 953 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:04,890 That was part of it is because I, no, no feel 954 00:31:04,890 --> 00:31:05,700 people, the emotional 955 00:31:05,700 --> 00:31:06,390 realization. 956 00:31:06,635 --> 00:31:06,895 Yeah. 957 00:31:07,075 --> 00:31:09,264 Like, holy, somebody actually did that. 958 00:31:09,264 --> 00:31:10,585 Now, now back that up. 959 00:31:11,095 --> 00:31:15,745 If I recall the scene opens up with, um, Tom Hanks on a, uh, 960 00:31:15,774 --> 00:31:17,215 you know, one of the loading boats that's gonna hit the 961 00:31:17,215 --> 00:31:20,004 shores, and his hand is shaking like he's, you know, trying to 962 00:31:20,004 --> 00:31:22,314 drink or do something to, to try to like calm his nerves. 963 00:31:22,615 --> 00:31:24,835 Every guy starts throwing up and everything else like that. 964 00:31:25,314 --> 00:31:26,245 Now I wanna pause there. 965 00:31:26,245 --> 00:31:29,395 This isn't about, about the movie, it's about optimism. 966 00:31:29,635 --> 00:31:30,054 Okay? 967 00:31:30,205 --> 00:31:30,264 Yeah. 968 00:31:30,564 --> 00:31:31,375 At some point. 969 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,320 Every single person on those boats had to be convinced that 970 00:31:36,409 --> 00:31:37,520 they were gonna be victorious. 971 00:31:37,610 --> 00:31:38,990 Now, now stick with that for a second. 972 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,210 They were going into certain death. 973 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,639 Like there's, there's absolutely, and I use this 974 00:31:43,639 --> 00:31:45,080 example because it's so stark. 975 00:31:45,379 --> 00:31:48,110 They're going into certain death, but the only way to be 976 00:31:48,110 --> 00:31:49,850 victorious, which they were. 977 00:31:50,175 --> 00:31:53,595 Was to have a manufactured optimism to see the world in 978 00:31:53,595 --> 00:31:56,055 a way where they didn't get shot, to see the world in 979 00:31:56,055 --> 00:31:58,305 a way where they didn't get butchered, but they actually 980 00:31:58,305 --> 00:32:00,345 made it past the beach and they made it up to the church, you 981 00:32:00,345 --> 00:32:01,485 know, and, and stopped things. 982 00:32:01,485 --> 00:32:04,455 Let's say, think of how powerful that is. 983 00:32:05,235 --> 00:32:08,535 Right in the face of absolute certain destruction. 984 00:32:08,895 --> 00:32:11,505 Someone generals, then commanders, et cetera, 985 00:32:11,715 --> 00:32:14,565 were willing to like to manufacture this optimism. 986 00:32:14,565 --> 00:32:17,115 They put together a plan that said this could work, and 987 00:32:17,115 --> 00:32:18,285 then this is the crazy part. 988 00:32:18,435 --> 00:32:21,165 Convince 156,000 troops. 989 00:32:21,675 --> 00:32:21,855 Yep. 990 00:32:21,945 --> 00:32:23,475 That they should do the same. 991 00:32:23,850 --> 00:32:24,330 Same thing. 992 00:32:24,510 --> 00:32:24,660 Yeah. 993 00:32:24,810 --> 00:32:26,910 I've had some wild ass ideas in my day. 994 00:32:27,210 --> 00:32:28,440 None of them involved. 995 00:32:28,500 --> 00:32:30,510 And we should run directly at machine guns. 996 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:31,320 Yeah. 997 00:32:31,410 --> 00:32:33,240 Like, yeah, I appreciate that. 998 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,430 If that ever does show up in one of our meetings, I'm, 999 00:32:35,430 --> 00:32:36,240 I'm, I'm gonna let you know. 1000 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,639 Now I'm probably, I probably, I, I won't say a hundred 1001 00:32:38,639 --> 00:32:40,710 percent, this is where that optimism comes in, but I'll, 1002 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:41,790 I'm probably gonna say no. 1003 00:32:41,970 --> 00:32:42,870 I will say this though, 1004 00:32:42,870 --> 00:32:45,060 in, uh, kind of as an aside, because we're recording 1005 00:32:45,060 --> 00:32:47,280 this after Veteran's Day, thank you to all the 1006 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:48,450 people that have served. 1007 00:32:48,450 --> 00:32:48,840 Yes, Ryan. 1008 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:50,100 I know you feel the same. 1009 00:32:50,310 --> 00:32:51,150 The fact that. 1010 00:32:51,825 --> 00:32:54,495 That level of bravery even exists in humans 1011 00:32:54,705 --> 00:32:55,784 is bananas to me. 1012 00:32:55,935 --> 00:32:56,145 Right. 1013 00:32:56,145 --> 00:32:58,815 And the fact that we work alongside, we live alongside 1014 00:32:58,815 --> 00:33:02,145 people who have that level of bravery is unbelievable. 1015 00:33:02,534 --> 00:33:05,175 I saw this great meme a few years back. 1016 00:33:05,175 --> 00:33:06,735 It was just talking about like kinda the generational 1017 00:33:06,735 --> 00:33:09,345 differences and it said your grandparents were 1018 00:33:09,345 --> 00:33:11,565 called the war, A storm on the beaches of Normandy. 1019 00:33:11,595 --> 00:33:12,435 This is during COVID. 1020 00:33:12,855 --> 00:33:14,475 You're being called to sit on your couch. 1021 00:33:14,685 --> 00:33:15,375 You'll be okay. 1022 00:33:16,695 --> 00:33:19,545 I was thinking of like the level of bravery generationally. 1023 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,470 And I, I always wonder like, you know, if we are, if we 1024 00:33:22,470 --> 00:33:25,530 had that level of call now, does our generation have that 1025 00:33:25,530 --> 00:33:28,080 level of optimism or, you know, patriotism or whatever 1026 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,165 to kind of, to heed that call kind of different world. 1027 00:33:30,990 --> 00:33:33,840 Big question and, and one that I actually kind of feel a little 1028 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:35,129 ill thinking about answering 1029 00:33:35,254 --> 00:33:37,080 and, and let's, let's hope we'd never answer. 1030 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:38,820 But I, I bring that up to say two things. 1031 00:33:38,820 --> 00:33:40,860 One, thank you for all the people that, that, uh, ensure 1032 00:33:40,860 --> 00:33:45,600 our freedom, but also think of what optimism can do. 1033 00:33:45,660 --> 00:33:49,650 Think, think of how powerful this tool is. 1034 00:33:49,650 --> 00:33:53,520 Like how powerful, like you can wield this tool, wielding 1035 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,260 optimism, you know, in the face. 1036 00:33:55,810 --> 00:33:57,700 Certain death in this case, and again, I know this, you 1037 00:33:57,700 --> 00:33:59,860 know, this example is kind of dark, but sort of the prove 1038 00:33:59,860 --> 00:34:03,370 the point to be able to create and wield optimism to those 1039 00:34:03,370 --> 00:34:05,920 types, types of end games that literally change the world. 1040 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,110 That's what we get to do. 1041 00:34:08,830 --> 00:34:08,949 Yeah. 1042 00:34:08,949 --> 00:34:10,960 Now how we wield that. 1043 00:34:11,889 --> 00:34:12,100 Yeah. 1044 00:34:12,699 --> 00:34:14,170 Slightly different stakes in most cases. 1045 00:34:14,350 --> 00:34:14,739 Yeah. 1046 00:34:14,770 --> 00:34:17,199 But, but we're given this tool, this, this 1047 00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:18,010 thing called optimism. 1048 00:34:18,975 --> 00:34:22,125 Ryan, I, I think that when founders second guess the 1049 00:34:22,125 --> 00:34:25,484 value of this optimism, or, you know, hey, everything's going 1050 00:34:25,484 --> 00:34:27,344 shitty, so, you know, why would I feel anything but shitty? 1051 00:34:27,734 --> 00:34:29,955 I'm like, ah, that's, that's not the way this works. 1052 00:34:30,225 --> 00:34:30,554 Right? 1053 00:34:30,554 --> 00:34:33,404 Like, your job is to manufacture that tool, like 1054 00:34:33,404 --> 00:34:34,484 to, to wield that tool. 1055 00:34:34,484 --> 00:34:34,935 You know what I mean? 1056 00:34:35,625 --> 00:34:35,924 Yeah. 1057 00:34:35,924 --> 00:34:37,154 Let's, let's circle back to that. 1058 00:34:37,274 --> 00:34:38,804 I'm, I'm gonna stick on that scene for a second 1059 00:34:38,804 --> 00:34:40,935 because there's, there's a really pivotal point 1060 00:34:40,935 --> 00:34:42,014 in that scene where. 1061 00:34:42,495 --> 00:34:45,134 There's optimism and it's, and it's, it's optimism, 1062 00:34:45,134 --> 00:34:47,835 but it's balanced well with, with apprehension and fear 1063 00:34:47,835 --> 00:34:48,705 and all of that, right? 1064 00:34:48,705 --> 00:34:50,534 Where they're, they're still in the boat and it's 1065 00:34:50,534 --> 00:34:53,594 that moment where the, the landing gate drops. 1066 00:34:53,804 --> 00:34:54,134 Right. 1067 00:34:54,464 --> 00:34:54,735 Right. 1068 00:34:54,944 --> 00:34:57,435 And I think this is an important moment, uh, and 1069 00:34:57,435 --> 00:34:59,714 sort of an important, uh, piece of the metaphor here. 1070 00:35:00,375 --> 00:35:04,125 Optimism didn't allow them to win that fight. 1071 00:35:04,665 --> 00:35:08,654 It allowed them to get to that fight so that they had a 1072 00:35:08,654 --> 00:35:09,915 chance of winning that fight. 1073 00:35:10,275 --> 00:35:10,545 Right. 1074 00:35:10,935 --> 00:35:12,585 That's what we're doing as founders. 1075 00:35:12,585 --> 00:35:14,654 We're creating that optimism so that we get 1076 00:35:14,654 --> 00:35:16,004 there and, and we show up. 1077 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,900 So that we have that chance to win, and there is a moment 1078 00:35:18,900 --> 00:35:21,000 where then that optimism is no longer what you need now. 1079 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,120 You just have to fight and fight and fight and try to 1080 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,430 get the win, whatever that is, whatever that micro thing is, 1081 00:35:26,430 --> 00:35:28,770 when it's usually not storming the beaches of normity, it's 1082 00:35:28,770 --> 00:35:31,290 usually shipping that feature or getting that developer that 1083 00:35:31,290 --> 00:35:33,750 you shouldn't be able to hire to say yes or, or bringing on that 1084 00:35:33,750 --> 00:35:36,420 investor, uh, who is skeptical, whatever it is, whatever 1085 00:35:36,420 --> 00:35:38,160 today's battle happens to be. 1086 00:35:38,610 --> 00:35:41,130 The optimism is what gets us to, to show up there. 1087 00:35:41,340 --> 00:35:44,160 And and believe, and man, I, I don't know anybody. 1088 00:35:44,220 --> 00:35:46,590 No one can out believe a founder who shows up daily. 1089 00:35:46,740 --> 00:35:48,810 And it's that optimism that gets us to show up daily. 1090 00:35:49,110 --> 00:35:49,350 I agree. 1091 00:35:49,350 --> 00:35:50,910 And it's that belief that actually helps us 1092 00:35:50,910 --> 00:35:51,600 to accomplish stuff. 1093 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,150 It's interesting too because it doesn't come 1094 00:35:54,150 --> 00:35:55,080 from somewhere else. 1095 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,300 In other words, nobody coaches us to be optimistic. 1096 00:35:57,300 --> 00:35:57,570 Right. 1097 00:35:57,630 --> 00:36:00,540 You either have this gear, the world is coaching 1098 00:36:00,540 --> 00:36:01,440 us to the opposite. 1099 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:02,850 They're like, you should give up. 1100 00:36:02,850 --> 00:36:03,480 You should quit. 1101 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:04,290 This is idiotic. 1102 00:36:04,500 --> 00:36:04,830 Absolutely. 1103 00:36:04,830 --> 00:36:04,980 Yeah. 1104 00:36:04,980 --> 00:36:05,670 Go be safe. 1105 00:36:05,730 --> 00:36:06,000 Right? 1106 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:07,200 I mean, that makes total sense. 1107 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,855 That is a rational thing to do, but founders have this ability. 1108 00:36:11,910 --> 00:36:16,980 To manufacture optimism in the face of absolute crazy 1109 00:36:16,980 --> 00:36:20,040 odds, but also, and this is just as crazy to maintain it. 1110 00:36:20,490 --> 00:36:22,680 Whereas everyone else, like I said, that commercial at the 1111 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,360 beginning with the Marines, right, where everyone else 1112 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,750 is running the other way, we're these crazy people that 1113 00:36:27,750 --> 00:36:30,570 are willing to suit up and run straight into the chaos. 1114 00:36:30,570 --> 00:36:32,880 And no matter how chaotic it gets in for as long as it gets, 1115 00:36:33,270 --> 00:36:34,500 we're willing to keep doing it. 1116 00:36:34,860 --> 00:36:35,520 But here's the thing. 1117 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:35,640 Yeah. 1118 00:36:36,030 --> 00:36:38,220 That's our job as founders. 1119 00:36:38,250 --> 00:36:41,580 Our job is to wake up every day, no matter what the day 1120 00:36:41,580 --> 00:36:44,190 looks like, and says, I am going to conquer the world. 1121 00:36:44,430 --> 00:36:45,930 It's not false confidence. 1122 00:36:46,020 --> 00:36:47,730 It's, it's the tool that we need. 1123 00:36:48,030 --> 00:36:50,880 If we don't shape that tool, if we don't develop that tool every 1124 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,640 day, build on that optimism and build on that future, 1125 00:36:53,850 --> 00:36:55,050 then we don't stand a chance. 1126 00:36:55,620 --> 00:36:57,990 If we do in the face of everything, if we wake up 1127 00:36:57,990 --> 00:37:00,510 every day and we're like, I don't care what the day looks 1128 00:37:00,510 --> 00:37:01,800 like, I'm gonna crush it. 1129 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:02,820 I'm gonna change the world. 1130 00:37:02,850 --> 00:37:05,820 I'm gonna shape things to the way I want them to my mold. 1131 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:07,740 That's what a founder does. 1132 00:37:07,770 --> 00:37:09,900 That's how we make the world what it's going to be. 1133 00:37:10,050 --> 00:37:11,760 And if we don't do it, we don't stand a chance. 1134 00:37:11,940 --> 00:37:15,060 But if we do, we show up with that weapon, we can 1135 00:37:15,060 --> 00:37:16,860 literally do anything. 1136 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:19,860 Overthinking your startup because you're going it alone. 1137 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,190 You don't have to, and honestly, you shouldn't because instead, 1138 00:37:23,190 --> 00:37:26,280 you can learn directly from peers who've been in your shoes. 1139 00:37:26,340 --> 00:37:28,680 Connect with bootstrap founders and the advisors 1140 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,110 helping them win in the startups.com community. 1141 00:37:31,260 --> 00:37:35,910 Check out the startups.com community@www.startups.com 1142 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:36,930 to see if it's for you. 1143 00:37:37,170 --> 00:37:38,220 Could be just the thing you need. 1144 00:37:38,430 --> 00:37:39,420 I hope to see you inside.