1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:04,080 Welcome to the pod. Thanks, Todd, for having me. It's 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,839 awesome to come back time and time again. Is it, like, my 3rd 3 00:00:07,839 --> 00:00:11,120 time now maybe? I, I love it. You're this is, 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:15,165 3rd time, and, you're now tied for, I 5 00:00:15,165 --> 00:00:18,685 think, recurring guest character. So if we have you back one more time, I guess 6 00:00:18,685 --> 00:00:22,445 you're gonna be in lead. But, you also have the the head start in 7 00:00:22,445 --> 00:00:26,285 that you were on, actually, episode 5 of the podcast. And when 8 00:00:26,285 --> 00:00:29,660 this goes to to to publish, I think it'll be 9 00:00:29,660 --> 00:00:33,500 episode 116. So, you know, you're you you've been back 10 00:00:33,500 --> 00:00:37,100 and back again. So great to have you. Well, thanks, man. I 11 00:00:37,100 --> 00:00:40,940 appreciate the, the honors. And I think I I owe 12 00:00:40,940 --> 00:00:44,274 some of that to just being a bit on the early adopter side on just 13 00:00:44,274 --> 00:00:47,714 about everything. You know, I I definitely suffer from a bit of the FOMO, a 14 00:00:47,714 --> 00:00:51,394 bit of the shiny object syndrome. And so whenever somebody comes out with a new 15 00:00:51,394 --> 00:00:55,050 show, I was like, oh, I wanna come on new show. And so lucky am 16 00:00:55,050 --> 00:00:58,730 I that people actually invite me to them. So thank you. Yeah. 17 00:00:58,730 --> 00:01:02,570 I love hanging with you. Love catching up. If if we were joking on, on 18 00:01:02,570 --> 00:01:06,330 your podcast that we haven't seen each other much this year, if at all, 19 00:01:06,330 --> 00:01:10,045 I guess. So, this is a a good substitute to to connect 20 00:01:10,045 --> 00:01:13,085 with you, more more often virtually anyway. So 21 00:01:13,965 --> 00:01:17,585 So true. So true. And I like the the ability to kinda have, 22 00:01:18,125 --> 00:01:21,744 a bit of a structured conversation around it. You know? Because sometimes people get together, 23 00:01:21,940 --> 00:01:25,159 You just talk about nothing and everything, but nothing mostly. 24 00:01:25,780 --> 00:01:29,380 So it's kinda nice when you have a topic to to to do a 25 00:01:29,380 --> 00:01:33,140 facilitated discussion, if you will. I appreciate that about these conversations for 26 00:01:33,140 --> 00:01:36,920 sure. For sure. So with that, we'll launch straight into it. 27 00:01:37,634 --> 00:01:40,375 Luis, are we doing VCIO all wrong? 28 00:01:41,634 --> 00:01:45,475 Oh, gosh. What a question, Todd. I I feel like 29 00:01:45,475 --> 00:01:49,075 you could look at it from a few different perspectives. Right? And 30 00:01:49,075 --> 00:01:52,810 and a lot of it is gonna depend on where in your own 31 00:01:52,810 --> 00:01:56,350 journey as an MSP you find yourself in or or what kind of 32 00:01:56,730 --> 00:02:00,350 situation you've created for yourself. I was just in 33 00:02:00,410 --> 00:02:04,170 Portugal last week with a great bunch of the IT nation evolve 34 00:02:04,170 --> 00:02:07,705 group MSPs and, and Joe Burns, one of the 35 00:02:07,705 --> 00:02:11,245 MSPs there actually drops a really cool, terminology 36 00:02:11,625 --> 00:02:15,465 that that clarified a lot of what the issues that we have are. And 37 00:02:15,465 --> 00:02:18,825 he says if you've created a lot of white space for your MSP in your 38 00:02:18,825 --> 00:02:22,340 process and what he meant by white space is that if if one of the 39 00:02:22,340 --> 00:02:26,180 ways that you sell into the industry and you go to market is that you 40 00:02:26,180 --> 00:02:29,940 kind of start with the basics and then you kind of institute a land of 41 00:02:29,940 --> 00:02:33,564 an land and expand strategy, meaning we're gonna sell them a small 42 00:02:33,564 --> 00:02:37,325 basic easy to consume package, something they understand, and then you go and upsell them 43 00:02:37,325 --> 00:02:41,004 on all the other things, you you kind of perpetually end up 44 00:02:41,004 --> 00:02:44,605 just trying to fill the white space over time in your account 45 00:02:44,605 --> 00:02:48,260 management process, which which we call the BCIO process today, 46 00:02:48,500 --> 00:02:52,340 proper probably incorrectly. But if one of the ways that 47 00:02:52,340 --> 00:02:56,040 you go to market is kind of standardized on your approach, 48 00:02:56,100 --> 00:02:59,160 you kind of include everything, of your 49 00:03:00,415 --> 00:03:04,175 productized service in the same package, right from the 50 00:03:04,175 --> 00:03:07,935 get go, you perhaps spend more time doing more 51 00:03:07,935 --> 00:03:11,455 strategic conversations after the fact because there's not a lot of this 52 00:03:11,455 --> 00:03:15,300 effort spent over rotating on trying to fill the white space. It's like, 53 00:03:15,300 --> 00:03:18,280 oh, we need more customers to buy more of the solutions that we offer. 54 00:03:18,819 --> 00:03:22,420 Sure. And so I think if when you ask the question, are we doing 55 00:03:22,420 --> 00:03:26,200 vCIO wrong? I guess it depends on what you want to get from that process. 56 00:03:26,675 --> 00:03:29,315 If if you created a lot of white space initially and one of the things 57 00:03:29,315 --> 00:03:32,834 you need to do and want to obtain from the process of like quarterly business 58 00:03:32,834 --> 00:03:36,674 reviews and whatnot is to actually fill the white space Then maybe that's a good 59 00:03:36,674 --> 00:03:40,349 outcome and the thing that you should be doing If one of the things 60 00:03:40,349 --> 00:03:44,030 you did was, you know, you sold a complete package and you're having 61 00:03:44,030 --> 00:03:47,569 great, maybe strategic discussions, 62 00:03:47,870 --> 00:03:51,629 then that's a great outcome as well and and maybe the purpose 63 00:03:51,629 --> 00:03:55,454 is a little bit different. I'd say if if you framed it in the 64 00:03:55,454 --> 00:03:58,355 context of what is the most valuable thing for the client 65 00:03:59,454 --> 00:04:02,974 and the majority of MSPs are just trying to fill white space and trying to, 66 00:04:02,974 --> 00:04:06,415 you know, pitch them on projects and things to standardize their stack in every 67 00:04:06,415 --> 00:04:09,960 QBR then I would maybe argue that we're 68 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,400 doing VCIO all wrong. Is that maybe the function of account 69 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:17,080 management? It's perhaps better suited. But, man, 70 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,700 there's lots of places to go from there. Yeah. So I I strongly 71 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,445 agree with this. And funny enough, I, like, I just recorded video for a 72 00:04:24,445 --> 00:04:28,125 course that goes through kind of exactly this of, the 73 00:04:28,125 --> 00:04:31,885 distinction of sort of these different roles. And I I sort of describe it on 74 00:04:31,885 --> 00:04:35,535 a spectrum. Right? That account management, like, right down to technical account management exists over 75 00:04:35,535 --> 00:04:37,413 here on the left, and then it moves to kind of account management. Then it 76 00:04:37,413 --> 00:04:39,800 goes to more broad consulting. And then I think VCIO sits sort of very much 77 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,420 further to the right. And if we think about it, like, 78 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,300 the original basis of the VCIO role 79 00:04:51,155 --> 00:04:54,915 was it was actually a billable product. Like, this was a package that you 80 00:04:54,915 --> 00:04:58,595 sold to people because it had so much inherent value that it 81 00:04:58,595 --> 00:05:02,355 was billable outside of the MSA that they were already subscribing 82 00:05:02,355 --> 00:05:06,200 to. And some MSPs had a lot of success in just selling VCIO 83 00:05:06,260 --> 00:05:10,020 services to customers that didn't have an MSA at all. And I think 84 00:05:10,020 --> 00:05:13,380 that's sort of the distinction that we're missing. I think you're a 100% right. It 85 00:05:13,380 --> 00:05:17,060 depends on where you stand because if, I like that 86 00:05:17,060 --> 00:05:20,680 description of filling the white space being a reference point for this because 87 00:05:20,875 --> 00:05:24,635 the distinction between these two is where they're applicable is if you're just 88 00:05:24,635 --> 00:05:28,475 doing account management in order to sell a more feature 89 00:05:28,475 --> 00:05:32,014 rich MSA. That makes sense. Whereas other organizations 90 00:05:32,555 --> 00:05:36,260 have sold a prescriptive full stack package, and that is not a 91 00:05:36,260 --> 00:05:40,020 requirement. So, therefore, they can spend more time on that right end of the 92 00:05:40,020 --> 00:05:43,700 spectrum and doing more consulting. So I think that's 93 00:05:43,700 --> 00:05:47,300 a a great way to frame sort of the problem and maybe gets to this 94 00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:50,685 point. Like, VCIO in the industry is one of the most 95 00:05:50,685 --> 00:05:54,365 derided terms that you can throw around. And maybe this is 96 00:05:54,365 --> 00:05:58,125 exactly why, because it doesn't really mean what it used 97 00:05:58,125 --> 00:06:01,565 to. But, like, why do you think people hate the term VCIO so 98 00:06:01,565 --> 00:06:05,180 much? I don't know. I think it's just, you 99 00:06:05,180 --> 00:06:08,940 know, Alex Farling actually made this comment about the term 100 00:06:08,940 --> 00:06:12,780 is that what it is today is probably a misrepresentation of what it should 101 00:06:12,780 --> 00:06:16,615 be. And I think maybe that's the frustration with the term. It's that right 102 00:06:16,615 --> 00:06:20,375 now, it's really just lipstick on account management is the term that he that he 103 00:06:20,375 --> 00:06:23,435 uses, and and I believe that to be true. I think a lot of people 104 00:06:23,735 --> 00:06:27,514 are are misusing the term VCIO when when the rotation 105 00:06:27,574 --> 00:06:30,715 that they have around that function or role is really just 106 00:06:32,100 --> 00:06:35,780 technical account management focused on the MSP selling more of 107 00:06:35,780 --> 00:06:39,620 their stack into the customer and not so much about creating value for the 108 00:06:39,620 --> 00:06:43,140 customer. And this was kind of borne out a few months ago. I had, 109 00:06:43,540 --> 00:06:46,120 Chris Jensen on on MSP Confidential, 110 00:06:47,535 --> 00:06:51,375 and I feel like that episode single handedly created a 111 00:06:51,375 --> 00:06:55,055 pivot for me in in the narrative of all my conversations going forward 112 00:06:55,055 --> 00:06:58,815 because I I kinda pose the same idea or topic to him. It's like, 113 00:06:58,815 --> 00:07:02,650 have we been doing this all wrong? And he's an enterprise CIO that often 114 00:07:02,650 --> 00:07:06,330 works with MSPs. And I've been using this, like, one minute sound 115 00:07:06,330 --> 00:07:10,170 clip of him describing, an experience that he had where he was working 116 00:07:10,170 --> 00:07:13,850 with one of his clients and they were swap changing MSPs and the 117 00:07:13,850 --> 00:07:17,535 new MSP came in and kind of went in and was like, wow, you know, 118 00:07:18,495 --> 00:07:22,335 they they presented to us, and also the client calls Chris back after 119 00:07:22,335 --> 00:07:25,855 a meeting with a new MSP and they're like, so what what was 120 00:07:25,855 --> 00:07:28,815 that? You know, these guys they came in and they they said these are the 121 00:07:28,815 --> 00:07:31,800 things we're gonna put in and this is the timeline we're gonna put them in 122 00:07:32,039 --> 00:07:35,819 and, and basically you're gonna like it. And the client goes, 123 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,879 like, why they were not focused on my business at all. They know nothing 124 00:07:39,879 --> 00:07:42,680 about my business, yet they came in and said these are the things we're gonna 125 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,195 do and when we're gonna do them and you're gonna like it. Like, I don't 126 00:07:45,195 --> 00:07:49,035 understand how that works. And so, Chris's comment in 127 00:07:49,035 --> 00:07:52,315 that moment is, like, it just doesn't sit well in the long term. And I 128 00:07:52,315 --> 00:07:55,535 thought it was so interesting that that the the whole VCIO 129 00:07:55,755 --> 00:07:59,570 process kinda has has the the eroded 130 00:08:00,110 --> 00:08:03,870 to basically be this purposely to trying to fill the 131 00:08:03,870 --> 00:08:07,470 white space process, and it's so difficult I think to 132 00:08:07,470 --> 00:08:11,205 do a proper customer centric motion when that's really the 133 00:08:11,205 --> 00:08:14,965 focus. When when you've given your account managers a quota of, 134 00:08:14,965 --> 00:08:18,565 like, filling white space, how are they supposed to go create value for the 135 00:08:18,565 --> 00:08:22,324 client in inside of that context? Right? I think that's the the most pressing 136 00:08:22,324 --> 00:08:26,020 question we need to ask ourselves. I think that I would push back 137 00:08:26,020 --> 00:08:29,780 that it's also really difficult in that context too because the the 138 00:08:29,780 --> 00:08:33,539 pre seed requirement of that is filling the white space. No? Right? 139 00:08:33,539 --> 00:08:37,275 Because, like, if they don't consume the full stack, they're not on sort of, 140 00:08:37,355 --> 00:08:41,035 say, your Wi Fi that you use, and therefore, they're not in sort of 141 00:08:41,035 --> 00:08:44,735 your unified vision, your unified dashboard for that. They're 142 00:08:44,875 --> 00:08:48,635 using WatchGuard firewalls when you guys are standardized on Ciscos 143 00:08:48,635 --> 00:08:52,350 or something else. Right? Like, if if they're not consuming your 144 00:08:52,350 --> 00:08:55,950 your full stack, that is something that should be fixed. Maybe you don't go in 145 00:08:55,950 --> 00:08:59,550 there wholesale and change it. And then, like I said, this is easier for people 146 00:08:59,550 --> 00:09:03,325 that sold a full stack to begin with. What kind of looks like that 147 00:09:03,325 --> 00:09:06,365 conversation of, like, wait a minute. Is this for me or for you kind of 148 00:09:06,365 --> 00:09:10,045 kind of thing? So, like, it's a requirement. We need to get this done, but 149 00:09:10,045 --> 00:09:13,805 we shouldn't represent it as VCIO. I think that's the distinction. 150 00:09:13,805 --> 00:09:17,529 But wouldn't wouldn't you agree that those, precede parts of filling 151 00:09:17,529 --> 00:09:21,209 that white space still needs to happen? Yes. And I 152 00:09:21,209 --> 00:09:24,730 think the challenge that we or or maybe the problem we create for 153 00:09:24,730 --> 00:09:28,345 ourselves as part of, like, needing to do that. And by 154 00:09:28,345 --> 00:09:31,705 no stretch am I saying like we shouldn't be doing account management. I think it's 155 00:09:31,705 --> 00:09:35,465 an integral part of like how MSPs continue to find and 156 00:09:35,465 --> 00:09:39,225 grow project delivery, you know, a lot of the project 157 00:09:39,225 --> 00:09:43,070 stuff comes out of the QBR cadence. I think 158 00:09:43,070 --> 00:09:46,589 just think there's an opportunity to evolve the way that we do them to some 159 00:09:46,589 --> 00:09:50,350 extent And maybe the challenge is 160 00:09:50,350 --> 00:09:53,790 that because we are so focused on the wide space we've actually 161 00:09:53,790 --> 00:09:57,555 lowered the barrier of strategic discussion altogether and we're 162 00:09:57,555 --> 00:10:01,395 not having any of the other required conversations around strategy that are 163 00:10:01,395 --> 00:10:05,235 so critical. And this is kind of, represented by the 164 00:10:05,235 --> 00:10:08,275 the questions that people ask me when I'm out in the market a little bit 165 00:10:08,275 --> 00:10:11,220 at the events and the conferences. Like, yeah, but how do you how do you 166 00:10:11,220 --> 00:10:15,060 make your QBRs more strategic is kind of the question. And I think 167 00:10:15,060 --> 00:10:18,340 the challenge is just that, is that if you're needing to fill the white space, 168 00:10:18,340 --> 00:10:21,860 you're gonna inherently lower the strategic value of the 169 00:10:21,860 --> 00:10:25,395 QBR process because it's really difficult to deliver that 170 00:10:25,635 --> 00:10:29,235 at scale with somebody who's is doing a lot of these and just needs to 171 00:10:29,235 --> 00:10:33,015 fill the white space. And so one of the interesting, maybe counterintuitive 172 00:10:33,395 --> 00:10:36,915 things that I talked to MSPs about is is actually creating a 173 00:10:36,915 --> 00:10:40,435 separate cadence for the strategic level conversations that is 174 00:10:40,435 --> 00:10:44,060 not focused on the account. Like, if you try to now suddenly build 175 00:10:44,060 --> 00:10:47,899 in the strategic portion into your regular QBRs, well, what's 176 00:10:47,899 --> 00:10:51,740 the problem with that? It's like, first of all, you've already been relegated most of 177 00:10:51,740 --> 00:10:55,440 the time to, like, a non executive point of contact on your regular 178 00:10:55,855 --> 00:10:59,055 quarterly business review meetings. So you're not gonna get the kind of traction that you 179 00:10:59,055 --> 00:11:02,735 need strategically from that person. So all they're doing is kind of just passing along 180 00:11:02,735 --> 00:11:05,795 the broken telephone message to somebody else. 181 00:11:06,575 --> 00:11:10,310 There's no you're not hearing as an MSP any of the conversations around 182 00:11:10,310 --> 00:11:13,830 the business goals or the business outcomes or the business challenges for that matter, like, 183 00:11:13,830 --> 00:11:17,590 if they're not necessarily good at articulating goals or strategy because they're a small 184 00:11:17,590 --> 00:11:21,430 business themselves, this is an inherent challenge we have too. Then at 185 00:11:21,430 --> 00:11:24,935 least, you're not even hearing the actual problems or 186 00:11:24,935 --> 00:11:28,555 challenges they're having either. And so, instituting a separate cadence, 187 00:11:29,015 --> 00:11:32,855 getting yourself invited into the customer's own strategic meetings or 188 00:11:32,855 --> 00:11:36,615 or annual board meetings or annual, like, cadence of some kind is 189 00:11:36,615 --> 00:11:40,270 is really interesting. And so doing it 190 00:11:40,270 --> 00:11:43,950 separately from the function of account management that you need to keep going for 191 00:11:43,950 --> 00:11:47,570 the purpose of filling the white space, I think needs to be done separately. 192 00:11:47,630 --> 00:11:51,250 So I I there's opportunities to to do more strategic 193 00:11:51,310 --> 00:11:55,134 engagement. I just think we'd be hard pressed to try and and 194 00:11:55,134 --> 00:11:58,894 and shoehorn it into the exec existing QBR process 195 00:11:58,894 --> 00:12:02,514 if it's strictly white space, process driven. 196 00:12:02,894 --> 00:12:06,254 I really like this. I think this is this is a very apt and smart 197 00:12:06,254 --> 00:12:09,940 approach of actually separating the technical account 198 00:12:09,940 --> 00:12:13,620 management from sort of the business consulting aspect of this. And I think it 199 00:12:13,699 --> 00:12:17,540 it's helpful in 2 ways, kinda what we're already talking about of, like, the technical 200 00:12:17,540 --> 00:12:20,935 stuff needs to happen over here, but don't represent it as sort of 201 00:12:20,935 --> 00:12:24,774 inherent business value and and sort of overselling what those 202 00:12:24,774 --> 00:12:28,535 what those meetings and engagements typically look like. That happens 203 00:12:28,535 --> 00:12:32,375 over here, and then we can have more business conversations at a lower 204 00:12:32,375 --> 00:12:36,055 cadence because that is sort of more priority or, how 205 00:12:36,134 --> 00:12:39,980 you have more influence or the time sensitivity of those things tend to make 206 00:12:39,980 --> 00:12:43,180 sense. I think the other part that this is helpful with, and and you'll remember 207 00:12:43,180 --> 00:12:46,860 this, since, you ran an MSP for years 208 00:12:46,860 --> 00:12:50,204 years, that there are certain conversations, certain, 209 00:12:50,745 --> 00:12:54,505 executives that just like to meet with other executives. Right? 210 00:12:54,505 --> 00:12:57,805 So you would have a president or a c I a CEO of an organization, 211 00:12:58,505 --> 00:13:01,785 and they wouldn't really show up to a meeting. But every once in a while, 212 00:13:01,785 --> 00:13:05,350 like, we would send a CEO or someone who, like, who is 213 00:13:05,350 --> 00:13:09,190 higher up in the food chain and has a different, role title. And then 214 00:13:09,190 --> 00:13:11,750 all of a sudden, they felt like that was a meeting that they could attend. 215 00:13:11,750 --> 00:13:15,510 So I think in a way, we're kind of separating the work, but also 216 00:13:15,510 --> 00:13:18,925 providing potentially people a contact point that is more 217 00:13:18,925 --> 00:13:22,764 representative of them. Because you could you you should as even if you're 218 00:13:22,764 --> 00:13:26,125 a small MSP, hopefully, like, you don't wanna be doing all the 219 00:13:26,125 --> 00:13:29,725 QBRs. I mean, if you're small, like, you know, 5 or, 6 220 00:13:29,725 --> 00:13:33,240 staff, then sure you're probably doing all the QBRs. But as you get 221 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:37,000 bigger, delegating the technical account management just to a lead 222 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,520 or a technical person on your team so that they can coordinate with a 223 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,280 controller, a CFO, or even an office manager on the 224 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,100 client side so that you can still maintain, say, biannually, 225 00:13:48,185 --> 00:13:52,025 or an annual conversation with the CEO. I think that's a division of labor 226 00:13:52,025 --> 00:13:55,865 and also sort of categorizes the work that you're doing those meetings much 227 00:13:55,865 --> 00:13:59,705 much better. I really like that approach. And I'll make a couple of 228 00:13:59,705 --> 00:14:03,450 other points. One of them being we as MSPs we 229 00:14:03,450 --> 00:14:07,050 do work with a lot of smaller customers and and I kind of 230 00:14:07,050 --> 00:14:10,650 mentioned the inherent challenge that we have already in that if they're 231 00:14:10,650 --> 00:14:14,010 like sub 15 people perhaps they're not running any kind of 232 00:14:14,010 --> 00:14:17,845 strategic cadence themselves at all or having any kind of discussion around 233 00:14:17,845 --> 00:14:21,685 specific business outcomes and goals and so one of 234 00:14:21,685 --> 00:14:25,365 the interesting things that we think is part of 235 00:14:25,365 --> 00:14:28,965 standardization is part of the ability to scale any kind of process 236 00:14:28,965 --> 00:14:32,670 inside the MSP is like, oh, well, you know, that's a 237 00:14:32,670 --> 00:14:36,350 lesser maturity client and we're gonna do fewer 238 00:14:36,350 --> 00:14:40,050 meetings with them and maybe they just need one annual review 239 00:14:40,270 --> 00:14:43,815 of, like, all their technology, period. And it's 240 00:14:43,815 --> 00:14:47,195 counterintuitive to think about it this way, but you're actually 241 00:14:47,415 --> 00:14:51,175 eroding trust with a customer that you meet less often with and I 242 00:14:51,175 --> 00:14:55,014 think this is so true. And so one of the interesting, things 243 00:14:55,014 --> 00:14:58,829 to try and consider redoing or doing differently is to meet 244 00:14:58,829 --> 00:15:02,510 more regularly at a lighter touch with some of your smaller 245 00:15:02,510 --> 00:15:06,110 customers because the maybe the monthly call for 15 minutes 20 246 00:15:06,110 --> 00:15:09,855 minutes actually helps create create trust and you're 247 00:15:09,855 --> 00:15:13,295 plugged into sort of some of the, just in 248 00:15:13,295 --> 00:15:17,135 time issues as they happen. You know, I used to make 249 00:15:17,135 --> 00:15:20,655 fun of the fact that your cybersecurity doesn't wait for anybody. If you're waiting for 250 00:15:20,655 --> 00:15:24,060 a year to talk to a customer about any given initiative or 251 00:15:24,060 --> 00:15:27,820 challenge, like, you're already so behind the 8 ball that 252 00:15:27,820 --> 00:15:31,579 is just it's just almost comical, to think that you could 253 00:15:31,579 --> 00:15:35,295 wait a year before you can talk to any one customer about anything. And 254 00:15:35,295 --> 00:15:38,735 so but it's counterintuitive. Right? Because we equate the 255 00:15:38,735 --> 00:15:42,095 cadence or the regularity of meetings with the maturity or or 256 00:15:42,095 --> 00:15:45,855 money, spent by the client on our services. And so that's 257 00:15:45,855 --> 00:15:49,660 one aspect, that I think is important to change. Yeah. Because I I 258 00:15:49,660 --> 00:15:52,779 used to I I don't know if I still run counter to the industry in 259 00:15:52,779 --> 00:15:56,459 this, but originally, I did. But, there was a lot of people, thought 260 00:15:56,459 --> 00:15:59,820 leaders in the industry that would say, if you're not doing QBRs on a on 261 00:15:59,820 --> 00:16:03,535 a quarterly basis, you're failing. Right? And and I never really believed that to 262 00:16:03,535 --> 00:16:07,375 be true because of exactly this. Like, most of us are dealing with, much 263 00:16:07,375 --> 00:16:11,055 smaller businesses that, like, won't even give us sort of the the time to 264 00:16:11,055 --> 00:16:14,415 spend, you know, an hour or 2 in in these in a 265 00:16:14,415 --> 00:16:18,220 QBR. So we've moved to sort of technology business reviews and all the myriad 266 00:16:18,220 --> 00:16:21,900 of other names that we started to name this process. And I think that 267 00:16:21,900 --> 00:16:25,500 that piece of that process is really important to recognize, like, it doesn't 268 00:16:25,500 --> 00:16:29,340 necessarily have to happen quarterly. And in a lot of cases for those smile 269 00:16:29,500 --> 00:16:33,265 small clients, that is a total impracticality and potentially 270 00:16:33,265 --> 00:16:37,105 dangerous to your profitability. If you're gonna spend all this time developing a QBR 271 00:16:37,105 --> 00:16:40,945 for someone that pays you $1500 a month, like that, you can kiss your profit 272 00:16:40,945 --> 00:16:44,385 goodbye for most of those months that you're doing this. It just kinda makes no 273 00:16:44,385 --> 00:16:48,180 sense. So I like this approach. This is something I've suggested in 274 00:16:48,180 --> 00:16:51,700 the past as well. It's just simply reach out to people as a person. Right? 275 00:16:51,700 --> 00:16:55,060 Like, you have no intent in talking to them. You just call them up and 276 00:16:55,060 --> 00:16:58,305 say, like, how are things? How's it going? How's business? Right? More as a peer 277 00:16:58,305 --> 00:17:01,904 and as a as sort of a friendly person. Because a lot 278 00:17:01,904 --> 00:17:05,424 of the clients, they tend to sort of put their armor on whenever you show 279 00:17:05,424 --> 00:17:08,304 up because they feel like you're just coming with a bunch of stuff to sell 280 00:17:08,304 --> 00:17:11,700 them. And that's a pretty understandable position for them because it's 281 00:17:11,859 --> 00:17:15,380 typically what's trying to happen as we're trying to fill this white space. So if 282 00:17:15,380 --> 00:17:18,899 you have these other touch points of just ringing them up, having a 10 minute 283 00:17:18,899 --> 00:17:22,740 conversation to catch up and moving on without expectation, I think that 284 00:17:22,740 --> 00:17:25,880 goes a long way to building a more trusting relationship. 285 00:17:27,215 --> 00:17:30,895 And here's another idea Todd, which I think is is an interesting sort of 286 00:17:30,895 --> 00:17:34,675 pattern interrupt, which is I heard 287 00:17:36,015 --> 00:17:39,455 Simon Sinek on an interview with Trevor Noah. Yeah, he was on Trevor's 288 00:17:39,455 --> 00:17:42,740 podcast And they were talking about trust, and I I think it was interesting how 289 00:17:42,740 --> 00:17:46,100 he kind of flips the script a little bit about around how trust is 290 00:17:46,100 --> 00:17:49,860 built. And he was saying Simon Sinnick was commenting, you know, trust is 291 00:17:49,860 --> 00:17:53,480 actually not built by helping other people. Trust is is 292 00:17:53,644 --> 00:17:57,485 is more quickly built by allowing people to help you and I thought 293 00:17:57,485 --> 00:18:01,085 there was an interesting, pattern interrupt and, and I saw this play 294 00:18:01,085 --> 00:18:04,205 out when one of the MSPs that I know out in the market, they're about 295 00:18:04,205 --> 00:18:07,910 a $20,000,000 MSP, They they started a client 296 00:18:07,910 --> 00:18:11,590 advisory board with some of their customers and so this is squarely that 297 00:18:11,590 --> 00:18:15,350 opportunity for clients to help you, give you the guidance, give you sort of the 298 00:18:15,350 --> 00:18:18,810 insight into what are the the things and challenges or or communication 299 00:18:19,030 --> 00:18:21,530 styles or data that they want to see from the MSP. 300 00:18:23,095 --> 00:18:26,535 And and so imagine, you know, a year, 2 years down the road, these clients 301 00:18:26,535 --> 00:18:30,054 are now invested in that MSP succeeding. And does you 302 00:18:30,054 --> 00:18:33,750 know, if you had to guess whether that increased the level of trust 303 00:18:33,830 --> 00:18:37,590 and loyalty to the MSP or decrease the level of trust or loyalty to the 304 00:18:37,590 --> 00:18:41,030 MSP, what would you say? Of course, it increases it. 305 00:18:41,030 --> 00:18:44,550 Right? So I I thought that was an interesting way to to flip the script 306 00:18:44,550 --> 00:18:47,590 a little bit around trust is that we see it as us being the heroes 307 00:18:47,590 --> 00:18:51,005 coming in and help them and solve all their problems, but we kind of have 308 00:18:51,005 --> 00:18:54,445 to shut up for a minute and let the client figure out how to help 309 00:18:54,445 --> 00:18:58,285 us along the way as well. And this is 310 00:18:58,285 --> 00:19:02,125 proven a bit because every time I go into these boardrooms with MSPs to 311 00:19:02,125 --> 00:19:05,280 talk about this, I asked them, you know, is there a situation where you have 312 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,720 a client that is wildly more mature than you are? You know, if we had 313 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,320 to use Paul Dippel's operational maturity level scale, you 314 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,000 know, are you below the maturity of your clients at any 315 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,735 given point or too high above at any given point? And they're like, no, you 316 00:19:19,735 --> 00:19:23,414 know, it doesn't work, in either direction. You kind of end up kind of 317 00:19:23,414 --> 00:19:26,554 in parallel moving a bit of the maturity up or down together 318 00:19:26,934 --> 00:19:30,375 because, that's kind of where the relationship naturally and 319 00:19:30,375 --> 00:19:34,090 organically kind of finds its place of support is that 320 00:19:34,090 --> 00:19:37,929 you're kind of continuously improving together around some of these issues. The 321 00:19:37,929 --> 00:19:41,769 clients way too mature for you, they're gonna drop you and vice versa. And so 322 00:19:41,769 --> 00:19:45,465 I thought that was interesting is that if they help you in this 323 00:19:45,625 --> 00:19:49,385 process of continually improving our operational maturity, you might 324 00:19:49,385 --> 00:19:53,225 actually have an interesting, creator of trust and loyalty in 325 00:19:53,225 --> 00:19:56,985 the process as well. Yeah. And as, the sort of the adage goes 326 00:19:56,985 --> 00:20:00,740 is, if someone has a hand in creating something, they're less likely 327 00:20:00,740 --> 00:20:04,580 to pooh pooh it. Right? So if you you're getting input from 328 00:20:04,580 --> 00:20:08,180 your clients on what this process looks like and they're providing active 329 00:20:08,180 --> 00:20:11,540 input, they feel a level of engagement in that, and they're more likely to 330 00:20:11,540 --> 00:20:14,735 participate and see value in it. So I I think that makes a ton of 331 00:20:14,735 --> 00:20:18,575 sense. I like the idea of of sort of, couching it in a way that 332 00:20:18,575 --> 00:20:21,455 they feel like they're helping you. That's that's a a really cool way to look 333 00:20:21,455 --> 00:20:25,294 at it. I totally agree. It reminds me of this this great 334 00:20:25,294 --> 00:20:28,690 video I saw this week of somebody says, you know, I feel like I'm 335 00:20:28,690 --> 00:20:32,370 having a moment of deja poo. And the person goes, do you mean 336 00:20:32,370 --> 00:20:35,510 deja vu? It's like, no, deja poo. I've heard this shit before. 337 00:20:38,530 --> 00:20:42,225 I like it. So with that Are you 338 00:20:42,225 --> 00:20:44,945 are you 18 plus on your podcast side? I don't wanna give it to you. 339 00:20:44,945 --> 00:20:48,304 We can say whatever we want. It's it's all adults listening unless they have kids 340 00:20:48,304 --> 00:20:48,945 in the car. So, 341 00:20:52,144 --> 00:20:55,730 with that, should we call VCIO something different 342 00:20:55,789 --> 00:20:59,630 given the fact that what we're doing typically isn't VCIO? Like I 343 00:20:59,630 --> 00:21:03,309 said, this started as something that was a consulting exercise that 344 00:21:03,309 --> 00:21:06,975 was that was often more expensive than the 345 00:21:06,975 --> 00:21:10,735 MSP services we're providing, and then it's just sort of devolved into this 346 00:21:10,735 --> 00:21:14,095 account management. Is it just simply that we should call this account 347 00:21:14,095 --> 00:21:17,235 management, or should we look at this in some other way? 348 00:21:18,430 --> 00:21:22,190 That's an interesting question, man. I I feel like, you know, VC 349 00:21:22,350 --> 00:21:25,170 like, if you think of what a CIO does in the enterprise, 350 00:21:26,670 --> 00:21:29,890 their role is one of risk management squarely, 351 00:21:30,750 --> 00:21:34,255 and I think the the the 352 00:21:34,255 --> 00:21:37,795 outcome of the role is different than the title of the role has sometimes, 353 00:21:38,335 --> 00:21:42,095 maybe if if if the role if the name 354 00:21:42,095 --> 00:21:45,855 VCIO has kind of devolved to be something or mean something 355 00:21:45,855 --> 00:21:49,470 else entirely, then I think we either need to redefine it or just 356 00:21:49,470 --> 00:21:52,990 pause and say, okay, we we all have to agree that the role of a 357 00:21:52,990 --> 00:21:56,610 CIO is to to manage and mitigate and decrease 358 00:21:56,669 --> 00:22:00,205 risk for the business that they're working with, then I I feel like 359 00:22:00,205 --> 00:22:04,044 the the VCIO should be doing that as well. And so the 360 00:22:04,044 --> 00:22:07,725 the problem is that we've used that term now interchangeably with account 361 00:22:07,725 --> 00:22:11,405 management, and and it's creating a bit of a rub, certainly in terms of, 362 00:22:11,405 --> 00:22:14,790 like, what the value that it can deliver to a business actually is. 363 00:22:15,670 --> 00:22:18,870 So I I don't know if I changed it, if we were using it correctly, 364 00:22:18,870 --> 00:22:22,650 if we were doing the the things the CIO actually does, 365 00:22:24,150 --> 00:22:27,910 but, yeah, it's starting to grind, the wrong way for 366 00:22:27,910 --> 00:22:31,684 sure. Well, and I think that's sort of the inherent problem with this is, 367 00:22:31,684 --> 00:22:35,365 like, the water has already gotten muddy with the term, so you can't really 368 00:22:35,365 --> 00:22:39,125 sort of pull it back either. And I don't know that people would love the 369 00:22:39,125 --> 00:22:42,725 idea of just sort of saying we're going to account management, and that's what we're 370 00:22:42,725 --> 00:22:46,299 doing over here because it just you know, it doesn't feel maybe as strategic in 371 00:22:46,299 --> 00:22:50,140 some way. So, you know, maybe what comes to mind we'll have to, 372 00:22:50,140 --> 00:22:53,980 like, we'll put this out there. Like, everyone should start arguing about 373 00:22:53,980 --> 00:22:57,615 this in in Reddit and, in Slack groups 374 00:22:57,995 --> 00:23:01,595 and throw it in the comments. Like, what should we call this process to to 375 00:23:01,595 --> 00:23:05,355 sort of get away from, this icky term that we don't like 376 00:23:05,355 --> 00:23:09,115 called VCIO, and and that to call it something that more 377 00:23:09,115 --> 00:23:12,690 represents what we're doing here. One that comes to mind for me would be just 378 00:23:12,690 --> 00:23:16,450 maybe borrowing from the SaaS world from from you guys is the 379 00:23:16,450 --> 00:23:20,130 client success tends to be the term that this is utilized. And 380 00:23:20,130 --> 00:23:23,890 maybe that is a sophisticated enough term, but I also feel it's 381 00:23:23,890 --> 00:23:27,545 more representative of what we're trying to do here. Like, I'm trying to really help 382 00:23:27,545 --> 00:23:30,765 you with your technology in order to make that spend successful. 383 00:23:31,465 --> 00:23:34,925 How does that resonate with you? How about client success in the MSP side? 384 00:23:35,385 --> 00:23:38,520 Yeah. 100%. I think, I've seen many MSPs 385 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,840 actually they're they're what would be their VCIO team they call it the client 386 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,440 success team and they each of those folks are called the client 387 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,500 success managers or they have 388 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,615 a focus and role squarely trying to drive 389 00:23:53,675 --> 00:23:57,135 outcomes business outcomes with the customers around technology 390 00:23:57,195 --> 00:24:01,035 enablement and and all the things that are you know what we envisioned this 391 00:24:01,035 --> 00:24:04,715 role to be and and I think you're 392 00:24:04,715 --> 00:24:08,480 right because you know client success or customer sex success is a little 393 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,240 bit more comprehensive and holistic I think an approach than what we 394 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,759 tend to think about you know when we put the the veil of risk 395 00:24:15,759 --> 00:24:19,200 management, on the conversation solely, you know, it's kind of 396 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,805 like you send in your security people to have a 397 00:24:22,945 --> 00:24:26,305 conversation around compliance, and they're kind of squarely just trying to put 398 00:24:26,305 --> 00:24:29,365 in, security point solutions into the conversation, 399 00:24:30,305 --> 00:24:33,905 or the account manager, as we talked about before, is kind of squarely trying to 400 00:24:33,905 --> 00:24:37,370 fill in white space, which is primarily focused around the standardization of 401 00:24:37,370 --> 00:24:41,210 the of the tech stack alignment and and this is mostly just 402 00:24:41,210 --> 00:24:44,730 good for the MSP even though you could derive some customer 403 00:24:44,730 --> 00:24:48,410 facing value out of some of those conversations, I think you're you'd be hard pressed 404 00:24:48,410 --> 00:24:52,174 to to squarely connect one thing to the other because we're just not even 405 00:24:52,174 --> 00:24:55,855 having the conversations around business enablement and and business 406 00:24:55,855 --> 00:24:59,535 issues and discussions. And so and then the 407 00:24:59,535 --> 00:25:03,310 other challenge is, you know, the industry has kind of squarely beat us over 408 00:25:03,310 --> 00:25:06,510 the head over the last 20 years to say you got to scale all your 409 00:25:06,510 --> 00:25:09,710 processes in order to do that you got to deliver 80% of as much of 410 00:25:09,710 --> 00:25:13,470 you can with the least expensive people. And so on top of like 411 00:25:13,470 --> 00:25:17,285 just being a white space focused role we've now, 412 00:25:17,425 --> 00:25:21,185 you know, started delivering that with very entry level folks that can't 413 00:25:21,185 --> 00:25:24,945 necessarily hold a c level conversation or the attention 414 00:25:24,945 --> 00:25:28,625 of an executive leader in a meeting because, you know, they're just being 415 00:25:28,625 --> 00:25:32,309 pitched by the person on what next projects need to be done to 416 00:25:32,309 --> 00:25:36,149 check off some boxes in your heat matrix. And so, you know, there's 417 00:25:36,149 --> 00:25:39,830 all these issues around it, but client success, 418 00:25:39,830 --> 00:25:43,669 customer success, I think that's it's a it's a mindset shift 419 00:25:43,669 --> 00:25:47,295 for sure. Yep. I I think that's an interesting point as well that you bring 420 00:25:47,295 --> 00:25:51,055 up that, we're expecting, you know, a tier 421 00:25:51,055 --> 00:25:54,895 2 or, you know, someone who's just graduated into tier 2 to have 422 00:25:54,895 --> 00:25:58,320 executive conversations. Because a lot of what VCIO 423 00:25:58,539 --> 00:26:02,379 should be doing is more business consulting. And if you don't have a 424 00:26:02,379 --> 00:26:06,000 business background and have kinda worked with a p and l and understand 425 00:26:06,220 --> 00:26:09,659 risk, and and process improvement and spend time in 426 00:26:09,659 --> 00:26:13,505 understanding that, Like, a VCIO functionally, I think, should look more like 427 00:26:13,505 --> 00:26:17,025 a business analyst role. So I think it's safer to sort of, 428 00:26:17,185 --> 00:26:20,465 again, I think it comes back to this this suggestion that you made of breaking 429 00:26:20,465 --> 00:26:24,065 the cadence between the more strategic meetings and and functional 430 00:26:24,065 --> 00:26:27,760 meetings. So that tier 2 or that that sort of low end tier 431 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,520 3 that's having more of those standardization and technical discussions is meeting with 432 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,360 someone who's more appropriate at that sort of business level, and maybe 433 00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:39,059 you occasionally need to get some approval from someone higher up for some budgetary 434 00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:42,635 spend. But as far as the sort of the cadence and and the inputs of 435 00:26:42,635 --> 00:26:46,475 those meetings, being more aligned with the skill set of the 436 00:26:46,475 --> 00:26:49,595 person that should be having them in the first place. Again, I think all all 437 00:26:49,595 --> 00:26:53,100 of these sort of ideas of breaking this up and reenvisioning what this 438 00:26:53,100 --> 00:26:56,160 process should look like are actually beneficial to both parties. 439 00:26:57,420 --> 00:27:01,020 There's I I think there's a a layer of, I 440 00:27:01,020 --> 00:27:04,700 I hate that I'm gonna drop this term, but if if you are, quote, 441 00:27:04,700 --> 00:27:08,225 unquote, an accidental business owner and or you're primarily 442 00:27:08,445 --> 00:27:12,045 technical, or you're a solutions architect that is kind of 443 00:27:12,045 --> 00:27:15,485 squarely thinking about, you know, these project 444 00:27:15,485 --> 00:27:19,165 deliverables and that kind of thing, I think there's still the opportunity to 445 00:27:19,165 --> 00:27:22,545 ask a very different type of question that maybe elicits 446 00:27:22,980 --> 00:27:26,660 a bit of the thinking on the customer side about, the 447 00:27:26,660 --> 00:27:30,280 processes, the the multi departmental 448 00:27:30,660 --> 00:27:34,280 communication that we've failed at organizing or facilitating. 449 00:27:34,660 --> 00:27:38,265 That's another big one, by the way, quick tangent on that. I think 450 00:27:38,485 --> 00:27:42,165 overall many of our customers have grown into their 451 00:27:42,165 --> 00:27:45,925 size over time along with us and if you've been an MSP for 10 452 00:27:45,925 --> 00:27:49,684 15 years, you know, there are some customers that started as 10 person shops that 453 00:27:49,684 --> 00:27:53,360 are maybe 50, 60, 70 people today and and 454 00:27:53,500 --> 00:27:57,340 nowhere along the process did you stop to reevaluate should we be talking to 455 00:27:57,340 --> 00:28:01,100 some of the other department heads? How are they talking amongst themselves between the 456 00:28:01,100 --> 00:28:04,780 teams and trying to uncover some of the interesting, you know, cross 457 00:28:04,780 --> 00:28:08,405 departmental challenges that that we just kind of are going with the 458 00:28:08,405 --> 00:28:11,625 flow because it's just grown organically from the beginning. 459 00:28:12,725 --> 00:28:16,265 So so back to the the conversation around how a technical person 460 00:28:16,645 --> 00:28:19,845 can get a little more strategic, I think it's just a matter of asking a 461 00:28:19,845 --> 00:28:23,559 slightly different type of question, And one of the favorite ones that I've been talking 462 00:28:23,559 --> 00:28:27,320 about with everybody from Marissa Maldonado of Produt 463 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,919 Technology to Alex Farling to vendors that that anybody who will 464 00:28:30,919 --> 00:28:34,275 listen, I'll I'll ask them this question and a lot of them will say, just 465 00:28:34,275 --> 00:28:38,055 ask the question, you know, how does your business make money? How does money flow 466 00:28:38,195 --> 00:28:42,035 from one department in your business to another? And I love 467 00:28:42,035 --> 00:28:45,795 that question because it just creates the opportunity to understand the 468 00:28:45,795 --> 00:28:49,580 first principles as I call it of that business the the individual moving 469 00:28:49,580 --> 00:28:53,420 parts, the small pieces that you may have not known to ask about 470 00:28:53,420 --> 00:28:57,180 otherwise, and this is where innovation happens. This is was like, oh, that 471 00:28:57,180 --> 00:29:00,940 sounds like a broken process right there between, you know, getting the the 472 00:29:00,940 --> 00:29:04,000 order from the sales team over to the production team. 473 00:29:04,995 --> 00:29:08,615 You're just, like, somebody's just printing this out and putting it in a folder. 474 00:29:08,675 --> 00:29:12,435 Let's talk about that, right? And so, that that 475 00:29:12,435 --> 00:29:16,135 is the question asking process could be an easy 476 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,559 target to to go and change about a bit of the the outcome of some 477 00:29:19,559 --> 00:29:23,399 of these conversations. I love that because it it definitely aligns with I 478 00:29:23,559 --> 00:29:27,240 what I see as sort of the future of our I would say our 479 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,760 industry in general, but also very much aligned to sort of this 480 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,325 the the role and the the problem that we're talking about today, 481 00:29:34,385 --> 00:29:38,065 is I think more business consulting will be a requirement of 482 00:29:38,065 --> 00:29:41,585 this industry going forward because we've gotten to the space where a lot of the 483 00:29:41,585 --> 00:29:44,945 technical stuff is being commoditized. I think standardization is 484 00:29:44,945 --> 00:29:48,710 easier. I've always been an advocate of a more prescriptive 485 00:29:48,850 --> 00:29:52,610 approach to the techno technology stack and telling people, like, this is what's good for 486 00:29:52,610 --> 00:29:55,809 you or this is what we're gonna implement because this is what we support. I 487 00:29:55,809 --> 00:29:59,525 I think that's a more mature approach to this. So if not spending time on 488 00:29:59,525 --> 00:30:03,365 these standardization discussions, which if you haven't got there, it's an important part 489 00:30:03,365 --> 00:30:06,745 to spend on. But once you've aligned that stack once with this client, 490 00:30:07,044 --> 00:30:09,945 where are you looking for business value? And that's 491 00:30:11,389 --> 00:30:14,669 I think that the way that you position that question gets to where we should 492 00:30:14,669 --> 00:30:17,710 be viewing this is, how do I how do we make money? How do we 493 00:30:17,710 --> 00:30:20,909 save money? Those are the 2 things that you should be digging into. And I 494 00:30:20,909 --> 00:30:24,445 love the idea of this process optimization because there are so many 495 00:30:24,445 --> 00:30:28,284 examples of that in any customer that you actually sort of quiz and 496 00:30:28,284 --> 00:30:32,125 and evaluate how they're doing things. They're emailing each other forms all 497 00:30:32,125 --> 00:30:35,585 the time. Like, maybe they should be looking at, some Power Automate 498 00:30:35,645 --> 00:30:39,380 process or or at least utilizing some SharePoint forms or something 499 00:30:39,380 --> 00:30:43,140 like that. Right? Like, there's so many micro improvements that can be made in the 500 00:30:43,140 --> 00:30:46,980 average SMB business that we know about, but we just 501 00:30:46,980 --> 00:30:50,740 never get to that level of conversation to be able to impact that change. And 502 00:30:50,740 --> 00:30:54,445 I think where this extrapolates to is much more around, you know, do they 503 00:30:54,445 --> 00:30:58,045 have a CRM? Are they implementing an ERP? Like, these are the type of 504 00:30:58,045 --> 00:31:01,745 more strategic discussions that are still technically aligned that 505 00:31:01,805 --> 00:31:05,245 we haven't there are certain organizations that are starting to dip into this 506 00:31:05,245 --> 00:31:08,970 territory, but I think this is much more the future of what our industry 507 00:31:08,970 --> 00:31:12,650 looks like. How does that land with you? Totally, man. I mean, 508 00:31:12,650 --> 00:31:16,410 if you think of, like, what we wanna do, if 509 00:31:16,410 --> 00:31:20,165 if creating value for our clients is the objective and and 510 00:31:20,165 --> 00:31:23,685 most people would agree with that statement is like, yeah, you 511 00:31:23,685 --> 00:31:27,065 know, we're here to to deliver an incredible service, 512 00:31:27,605 --> 00:31:31,365 enable technology for them to to deliver true business outcomes 513 00:31:31,365 --> 00:31:34,970 and ultimately create value and you see this kind of like 514 00:31:34,970 --> 00:31:38,730 there's been a challenge understanding from a client's 515 00:31:38,730 --> 00:31:42,250 perspective of them understanding what value you're creating or delivering 516 00:31:42,250 --> 00:31:45,850 because we get this question all the time it's like how do I show more 517 00:31:45,850 --> 00:31:49,565 of the value that we're creating to our clients? And the simple 518 00:31:49,565 --> 00:31:52,465 answer is well, you got to create more value, first of all 519 00:31:53,405 --> 00:31:57,085 It sounds like a silly answer to give, but the reality is that, you know, 520 00:31:57,085 --> 00:32:00,925 just doing a white space QBR does not necessarily create value 521 00:32:00,925 --> 00:32:04,640 for the client even though you might think it does And so 522 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,840 I think that's an important part of the conversation is, you know, coming to terms 523 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,440 with whether you're actually helping create value ultimately or not and 524 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,660 whether the client perceives it and we don't often ask the question 525 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,365 from a feedback perspective is like, you know, what are the 526 00:32:18,585 --> 00:32:22,425 outcomes you expect from these meetings? We kind of just bring 527 00:32:22,425 --> 00:32:25,805 them in, we talk at them for the 30 minutes or 45 minutes, 528 00:32:26,505 --> 00:32:29,705 if if one of the things we're doing is trying to chase down the users 529 00:32:29,705 --> 00:32:33,305 that haven't completed their security awareness training, then 40 of the 45 minutes 530 00:32:33,305 --> 00:32:36,960 are spent on that. You know, it's a difficult thing to manage too 531 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,720 for sure because, we just kind of, let the process 532 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,419 settle into this very technical conversation. But overall, 533 00:32:44,559 --> 00:32:48,265 like, the the idea of creating value, I think, just has to 534 00:32:48,265 --> 00:32:52,025 come from the conversation of the customer, you know, being able to express a 535 00:32:52,025 --> 00:32:55,465 little bit of what are the challenges that they're having and and you trying to 536 00:32:55,465 --> 00:32:59,225 manage IT to that and creating opportunities to solve some of those 537 00:32:59,225 --> 00:33:02,940 challenges, and I think, ultimately, that's that's what creates and drives value. 538 00:33:02,940 --> 00:33:06,720 I'll tell you, one of the things that came up in many of my conversations 539 00:33:06,860 --> 00:33:10,080 last week is that as MSPs, we're actually particularly 540 00:33:10,220 --> 00:33:13,980 terrible all of stare telling the story around the data, and I'll give you 541 00:33:13,980 --> 00:33:17,785 an example. You know, most of us, maybe have 542 00:33:17,785 --> 00:33:21,385 a process where, technical account manager goes in and says, 543 00:33:21,385 --> 00:33:25,065 hey, we really would like you to implement this solution or this other solution, and 544 00:33:25,065 --> 00:33:28,580 they say yes, and then you send in the the project team to go 545 00:33:28,580 --> 00:33:31,380 deliver that thing and then they're done and then they move on to the next 546 00:33:31,380 --> 00:33:35,220 thing. And does the account manager or the VCIO ever 547 00:33:35,220 --> 00:33:39,000 go back and talk about the results of that project, of that initiative? 548 00:33:39,460 --> 00:33:43,164 Like, almost never. It's so interesting that we never go back and 549 00:33:43,164 --> 00:33:46,784 say, hey, after we implemented MFA or conditional 550 00:33:46,924 --> 00:33:50,625 access, we saw the number of failed logins decrease 551 00:33:50,765 --> 00:33:54,524 by 94% or whatever the story is. There's a a million of those 552 00:33:54,524 --> 00:33:58,029 little stories that a) validate the client's choice to 553 00:33:58,029 --> 00:34:01,870 send to spend money on a project or or initiative and b) 554 00:34:01,870 --> 00:34:05,710 it just helps you very very, easily, show 555 00:34:05,710 --> 00:34:09,310 the value that you're trying to to deliver through some of these projects and 556 00:34:09,310 --> 00:34:12,715 so that's an area that I would say it's it's probably an easy 557 00:34:12,715 --> 00:34:16,475 hit for a lot of MSPs to do is just actually look at the 558 00:34:16,475 --> 00:34:20,235 data of the thing that you deliver, the initiative you drove, and talk about 559 00:34:20,235 --> 00:34:23,800 it, it's already there. Yeah. Versus, 560 00:34:24,020 --> 00:34:27,699 you know, the the just, you know, spending 30 minutes to go through the 561 00:34:27,699 --> 00:34:31,540 laundry list of all of the KPIs that you wanna report to them that really 562 00:34:31,540 --> 00:34:35,300 don't have a narrative around them. So this is I love this idea, Luis, 563 00:34:35,300 --> 00:34:39,075 of, like, what do you actually want to tell them? What's the story 564 00:34:39,075 --> 00:34:42,614 you're trying to convey to that customer? Pick 2 or 3 KPIs 565 00:34:42,675 --> 00:34:46,275 that represent some story and tell that story and support it with some 566 00:34:46,275 --> 00:34:49,715 evidence. Like, you don't need to print out an 80 page report and be like, 567 00:34:49,715 --> 00:34:52,720 hey. Look at all this value. And I think this is part of the thing 568 00:34:52,720 --> 00:34:56,240 that we get wrong, especially about this process. And it goes to, I would think, 569 00:34:56,240 --> 00:34:59,680 a more systemic issue in the industry is that we tend to be technical 570 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,200 people. And one of, one of my favorite expressions is is, 571 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,195 peep is tools don't solve people problems. And account management 572 00:35:07,195 --> 00:35:10,734 and VCIO is inherently a people process because you're trying to 573 00:35:11,515 --> 00:35:15,295 derive and provide value to a person in that organization 574 00:35:15,595 --> 00:35:19,440 for their business. Right? So it is it is very much a a people 575 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,280 centric approach to this if you do it correctly. And I 576 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,580 think where we kinda get this wrong is I see a lot of organizations 577 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,720 that confuse the tool with the process. Right? Like Scalepad, you guys 578 00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:34,555 have great tools that will help to support this process in doing life 579 00:35:34,555 --> 00:35:38,395 cycle management and things like that. But, like, to spend an hour with an 580 00:35:38,395 --> 00:35:42,175 executive to tell them, like, here are all the workstations that you're gonna replace, 581 00:35:42,395 --> 00:35:45,755 that's not value to their business. It's just sort of a 582 00:35:45,755 --> 00:35:49,589 necessary thing. And I think that, like, if you just stick with the the 583 00:35:49,589 --> 00:35:53,430 the the components of the tools and think that that's the process, that's 584 00:35:53,430 --> 00:35:57,270 potentially a problem. The tools should really make that process easier for 585 00:35:57,270 --> 00:36:00,869 you. They're a component of it. So not confusing the tool with the process, I 586 00:36:00,869 --> 00:36:04,435 think, is a really important aspect of this. Not that the 587 00:36:04,435 --> 00:36:08,195 tools aren't helpful. They absolutely are. But they're a supportive component, not 588 00:36:08,195 --> 00:36:11,955 the the process itself. Right? A 100%. And 589 00:36:11,955 --> 00:36:15,520 there's one other area that I feel like we make the mistake 590 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,140 of quite regularly and it depersonalizes 591 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,440 a bit of the ability to tell a story Last week we had 592 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,980 Ben Hanlon, who I would best describe as 593 00:36:27,365 --> 00:36:30,964 a magician who figured out how to use magic as a vehicle to talk 594 00:36:30,964 --> 00:36:34,484 about engagement, with people in whether it's 1 on 1 595 00:36:34,484 --> 00:36:38,244 conversations or presenting or so on. And one of the things that he dropped as 596 00:36:38,244 --> 00:36:41,940 advice that I thought was so salient to me of his entire presentation 597 00:36:42,020 --> 00:36:44,580 this is the thing that I that he made us circle the one thing that 598 00:36:44,580 --> 00:36:48,420 that stuck out, and this is the one thing I circled, is don't talk 599 00:36:48,420 --> 00:36:52,100 about a 1000 people. Talk about 1 person. And we 600 00:36:52,100 --> 00:36:55,445 tend to depersonalize a bit of the story that we do tell if we tell 601 00:36:55,445 --> 00:36:58,725 it at all by talking about, oh, all our customers do this or all our 602 00:36:58,725 --> 00:37:02,245 other customers do this. The customer that you're talking with in that 603 00:37:02,245 --> 00:37:05,605 moment cannot attach to a story when it's like 604 00:37:05,605 --> 00:37:09,390 everybody, But they can talk they can specifically find, you 605 00:37:09,390 --> 00:37:13,070 know, a parallel to 1 individual or one company that you're 606 00:37:13,070 --> 00:37:15,890 giving an example about even if it's sort of anonymous, 607 00:37:17,230 --> 00:37:20,850 much better than if they're talk if you're talking about a 1,000 customers, 608 00:37:21,150 --> 00:37:24,395 potentially in a thousand you know, most of us don't have a 1000 customers, but 609 00:37:24,395 --> 00:37:27,995 you get what I mean. Yeah. That's, I think it's a Stalin quote, 610 00:37:27,995 --> 00:37:31,755 actually. One death is a tragedy. A 1000 deaths is 611 00:37:31,755 --> 00:37:35,284 is a statistic. Right? It goes to that point of, like, we just can't sort 612 00:37:35,284 --> 00:37:35,426 of comprehend that. We don't wrap that around our brain. But I think, your your 613 00:37:35,426 --> 00:37:38,499 point is well excellent thing, like a tangible thing that you can weave into your 614 00:37:38,499 --> 00:37:40,230 your your account management, or if it is a VCIO process, your VCIO process. 615 00:37:49,365 --> 00:37:53,125 The of looking for specific examples and bringing value from 616 00:37:53,125 --> 00:37:56,725 other organizations in your portfolio. Like, if you're dealing with a 617 00:37:56,725 --> 00:38:00,485 construction firm, you probably have another construction firm that you can say, 618 00:38:00,485 --> 00:38:04,020 hey. I saw so and so, you know, x y z company doesn't 619 00:38:04,020 --> 00:38:07,640 necessarily be need to be named, but another construction company in the industry 620 00:38:07,700 --> 00:38:11,540 doing this or they utilize this process or this tool. Like, 621 00:38:11,540 --> 00:38:14,980 that's the type of value that you can bring to them that actually sort of 622 00:38:14,980 --> 00:38:18,645 has a a business value component to it. Right? And just 623 00:38:18,645 --> 00:38:22,484 looking for specific reference points, spend 10 minutes before that meeting 624 00:38:22,484 --> 00:38:26,164 coming up with an idea of some value that you can relay to them based 625 00:38:26,164 --> 00:38:29,840 on the experience that you have in having, been in these 626 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,680 situations of viewing dozens of other companies. Yeah. I 627 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,520 love that. Okay. So we've, we've solved 628 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,900 the world of VCIO and and account management. I think, 629 00:38:42,035 --> 00:38:45,415 we're we're still looking for the broader term client client 630 00:38:45,555 --> 00:38:49,315 success, customer success. I think that that maybe resonates. So as I said, 631 00:38:49,315 --> 00:38:52,995 you know, fight us in in the forums. Luis and I will be there 632 00:38:52,995 --> 00:38:56,730 to take all of your input. But I think at the the the 633 00:38:56,730 --> 00:39:00,410 root level of this, I think the the really important component, I think, 634 00:39:00,570 --> 00:39:04,410 big takeaway from this conversation is just naturally segregate the 635 00:39:04,410 --> 00:39:08,090 technical account management from the business consulting and the the the 636 00:39:08,090 --> 00:39:11,904 true sort of strategic value. I think that's a huge takeaway that is 637 00:39:11,904 --> 00:39:15,585 actually really practical, and potentially allows you to do a 638 00:39:15,585 --> 00:39:19,424 little less work. Right? Maybe you're not doing a quarterly session and just doing a 639 00:39:19,424 --> 00:39:22,865 a strategic session annually. Let someone else do the technical account 640 00:39:22,865 --> 00:39:25,984 management with someone else lower on the total poll on the on the client side. 641 00:39:25,984 --> 00:39:29,780 I think that's a huge value that, people should consider. Anything 642 00:39:29,780 --> 00:39:33,540 else we have With with the cautionary tale of of not letting that be the 643 00:39:33,540 --> 00:39:37,300 only time you talk to that customer is once yearly, if you do 644 00:39:37,300 --> 00:39:40,840 have to sort of break this out into a yearly cadence for a strategic conversation, 645 00:39:41,325 --> 00:39:45,085 You definitely have to be having those light touches every every month 646 00:39:45,085 --> 00:39:48,625 or every couple months or or whatever cadence makes sense, but just 647 00:39:49,005 --> 00:39:52,525 not once a year because I think the the trust and the opportunity for 648 00:39:52,525 --> 00:39:56,160 loyalty is lost over the the 1 year meeting. I think that actually 649 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,920 creates downward pressure commoditization wise is because they have 650 00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:03,680 no relationship to stand on and so if at that point 651 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:07,440 all the customer can look at is, you know, what they're paying, for what they're 652 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:11,055 getting, This is exactly the point of comparison with anybody 653 00:40:11,055 --> 00:40:14,895 that's down the street charging a little bit less for the same service. Yep. 654 00:40:14,895 --> 00:40:18,735 People buy from people. Right? So be a person, show up, and and represent 655 00:40:18,735 --> 00:40:22,240 yourself that way. And and like you said, it's not that hard. Just call the 656 00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:26,080 person once a month, be curious, be interested, drop by their office, 657 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,520 bring some swag or some donuts every once in a while, and just be visible 658 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,140 in that capacity. It brings a ton of value, and it's really not that hard. 659 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,045 Right? The the the value that you'll derive from spending a little bit of time 660 00:40:37,045 --> 00:40:40,725 on that, I think, is is absolutely massive. But for me, 661 00:40:40,725 --> 00:40:44,505 being a very process oriented person to this, like, for example, 662 00:40:44,885 --> 00:40:48,405 I'll take this home a little bit because, you know, I I for, I don't 663 00:40:48,405 --> 00:40:51,920 know, weeks, maybe more than a month, probably more than a month, I was 664 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,460 supposed to hang this this hanger in in the garage. 665 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,920 And this this morning, my my wife reminded me about it, and she said, well, 666 00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:03,075 I'll do this thing when you do that. And then, of course, I I pushed, 667 00:41:03,474 --> 00:41:07,234 Siri on my watch and told her to remind me this afternoon to 668 00:41:07,234 --> 00:41:10,755 go and do this thing. And and she sort of chuckled, like, thinking I was 669 00:41:10,755 --> 00:41:13,795 doing it just to make her do the other thing. I was like, no. Like, 670 00:41:13,795 --> 00:41:17,540 I've thought about this a number of times and just forgotten. Right? So 671 00:41:17,540 --> 00:41:20,980 I need these systems and these processes. And I'm sure many people are like this, 672 00:41:20,980 --> 00:41:24,820 not everybody, but, like, build tools and systems around this 673 00:41:24,820 --> 00:41:28,500 process. Like, utilize a CRM, you know, your PSA, if 674 00:41:28,500 --> 00:41:32,145 that's all you have. Great. But actually build recurring tickets or 675 00:41:32,145 --> 00:41:35,905 recurring activities for yourself to just call your clients and build a system 676 00:41:35,905 --> 00:41:38,705 around that. So you're not like, oh, hang on. When was the last time I 677 00:41:38,705 --> 00:41:42,405 talked to that person? And you shouldn't find yourself in that situation. So 678 00:41:42,700 --> 00:41:46,240 if you need a tool or a system to follow, then absolutely do that. 679 00:41:47,260 --> 00:41:50,780 Anything else, that we haven't touched on, Luis, that that you'd love to to get 680 00:41:50,780 --> 00:41:54,460 in here? I don't know, man. Now all that I can think of after this 681 00:41:54,460 --> 00:41:57,585 entire conversation is that I want some donuts, if I'm honest. 682 00:41:58,045 --> 00:42:01,805 And so thanks for dropping that in there because you made me squarely, like, change 683 00:42:01,805 --> 00:42:05,645 my entire prioritization list. Going to find 684 00:42:05,645 --> 00:42:09,485 some donuts now. Have some salad first, then you can reward yourself 685 00:42:09,485 --> 00:42:13,300 with a donut. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Hey, Siri. Remind 686 00:42:13,300 --> 00:42:17,060 me to have some salad before I eat donuts. Awesome. I need a I 687 00:42:17,060 --> 00:42:20,440 need a systems, system and a process for this. Yep. 688 00:42:20,740 --> 00:42:24,494 Always great to have you, Luis. Really appreciate it. There it 689 00:42:24,494 --> 00:42:28,174 goes. To you. Siri responded to me. I appreciate, that 690 00:42:28,174 --> 00:42:31,555 opportunity, Todd. Now I'm gonna have a little giggle by myself, 691 00:42:31,934 --> 00:42:35,775 at 4 PM. Siri comes back and says, reminder to 692 00:42:35,775 --> 00:42:39,580 have a salad. Great. Good to 693 00:42:39,580 --> 00:42:43,420 have you, man. Have an awesome week and, and great holidays 694 00:42:43,420 --> 00:42:45,980 through the season, and hopefully see you a little more of you next year as 695 00:42:45,980 --> 00:42:49,820 well. Yes, sir. Thank you, Todd. Always a pleasure, and, good to 696 00:42:49,820 --> 00:42:53,295 see everybody. Ciao. Take care.